Hey, just getting to watch this video for the first time today! You did a great job on it. You were about 95% accurate :-) but of course having first-hand experience would’ve been the other 5%. The only thing I would say, is that I am actually very glad that Eric didn’t leave me on the switchbacks to go up to the other guys to get help. I think that would’ve been a big mistake to leave me there in my worst. It would’ve taken Another 30 to 45 minutes for them to get back to me. As far as everything else, I think you were pretty well, correct! I was extremely dehydrated. They pumped over 10 L of water into my system through an IV that day. And then I drank another eight cans of 12 ounce Gatorade on top of that! My current report is this… As my health continues to improve, I am still seeing doctors and taking it easy on hikes.

@AdventureOtaku

Жыл бұрын

Hey Dan, Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment. glad your recovery is going well - if slowly! 10L of fluid through IV! Your poor kidneys! Regarding Eric leaving you or not leaving you, I get what you are saying, but I think If someone were treating you, got you stabilized and started with fluids, you would be okay with it, but alas, there is no real way to know, short of TRYING IT AGAIN! Which I am sure you would agree would be a very bad idea. Psychological first aid is super important, and you got none. The other option would be to temporarily leave your pack there - or Eric double carry packs…. But in your state you shouldn’t have been carrying a pack. Thanks again for commenting, keep the good videos rolling!

@GL-ph6pk

6 ай бұрын

"Psychological first aid is super important, and you got none." YES. When my friends and I watched this episode, we were struck by how little compassionate empathy was shown. Very narcissistic vibe. @@AdventureOtaku

@AdventureOtaku

6 ай бұрын

Yeah. Pretty upsetting actually. Particularly since Dan comes across as a pretty good guy. That he didn’t get the care he needed from his friends….kinda sucks. I was very upset to learn later that one of them was a WFR.

@GL-ph6pk

6 ай бұрын

Well, you're definitely doing it right, sir. Your video has and will continue to save lives. @@AdventureOtaku

Lots of good points. I will add a few more comments focusing on rhabdo. Lots of good points. I will add a few more comments focusing on rhabdo. I believe that the likely sequence of events in this case was as follows: 1. Dan was probably not adequately trained/prepared for the descent from the South Rim with a heavy backpack in the winter. The level of exertion and amount of work on this descent leads to muscle soreness and damage. A side note about rhabdomyolisis (rhabdo): Rhabdo happens very commonly. Muscle bruises and routine exercise cause rhabdo, which leads to the release of muscle cell contents into the blood. The amount of muscle cell contents released is typically not enough to cause major problems and these released muscle components are generally cleared by the kidney IF the person is not dehydrated and if drugs like ibuprofen and aleve are not on board (see below). Kidney trouble happens when the amount of muscle injury exceeds the ability of the kidneys to deal with what has been released into the blood. So, if you have really large amounts of muscle injury, the kidneys can be overwhelmed even if you are reasonably well hydrated. If you are dehydrated, or if you have the above drugs on board, lesser amounts of muscle damage can cause kidney injury. In the hospital situation, the most important treatment of rhabdo and kidney injury is aggressive IV fluid hydration to maintain large amounts of urine output so that the now-circulating muscle components can be eliminated/excreted by the body. 2. More or less at the same time on the descent, Dan gets dehydrated. He probably does not drink enough. He likely had decreased urine output (if he was monitoring that - always a good idea in these situations). Decreased urine output is an excellent indicator of fluid status and dehydration. 3. It is not clear, but I suspect that he was taking ibuprofen or aleve, maybe both, for muscle soreness, aches, etc. Others on the video were using these drugs. These OTC agents are generally safe but they decrease kidney blood flow and will exacerbate the potential damaging kidney effects of rhabdo. These drugs therefore will act synergistically with dehydration regarding kidney injury associated with rhabdo. 4. So Dan is dehydrated and does not realize it. He had suffered muscle injury from a tough hike and not being prepared adequately for a tough hike, and ibuprofen/aleve was (possibly) making everything worse. I suspect that he did not drink much in the afternoon and evening of day 1 too, which just made things worse. All of this then got worse on day 2, leading to calling 911. Lessons: 1. Train for long winter GC DESCENTS. Descending with a heavy pack (especially in winter) can be harder on muscles than going uphill. 2. Drink a bunch before you hike (that morning). Make sure you are peeing a bunch before you leave. Monitor your urine output before and during the hike. Strive to have a full bladder every few hours, preferably of clear urine. If urine output starts to drop, stop (or slow down) and drink until adequate production of clear urine resumes. 3. Looking at this retrospectively, consider changing plans when a hike beats you up like a winter GC descent with a heavy pack. Maybe stay an extra day without moving so you can hydrate and recover. I suspect that it would have been better to stay an extra night before trying to ascend in snow to the north rim. Perhaps the best thing to do would have been to return to Phantom Ranch instead of ascending to 8000 ft in the winter snow to the North Rim where there is typically not much help. 4. This was not an unpredictable, random event. The cards were stacked for something like this to happen. Attend to hydration. Listen to your body. Learn about rhabo. It is not rare IN THIS SETTING and in the presence of the risk factors described above. Most cases of rhabdo are sufficiently mild that they resolve with hydration and the person never goes to a hospital. We often do risky things and get away with it. Dan did not get away with it this time.

@AdventureOtaku

9 ай бұрын

Thanks for watching. Glad you found it helpful.

@boonerichardson1639

4 ай бұрын

14 year RN here with specialty experience in renal care and developed and taught classes in renal failure. Just wanted to validate everything you said in this comment. Very good descriptions of all of the mechanisms and compounding factors 👍

@TheDaReel

3 ай бұрын

Thanks Gary for that educational comment. I’ve always known how important hydration is but I never knew the actual mechanics of it.

Thank you Dan for allowing this video to be made 👍❤👍 I will be looking forward to watching this video on your channel as well. I’m not going to go into why this is personal to me but I appreciate you sharing your story.

@AdventureOtaku

Жыл бұрын

I too appreciate Dan allowing me to make this video. It isn’t the first time I tried to do something like this and people have just ignored the request.

This was a really great learning video. I watched Dan's video when it came out and am trained in wilderness first aid. I was trying to think through how I would handle a situation like that. It was great to have you walk through everything step by step. I learned a lot. Thanks for doing this. BTW.. I can't say enough about the confidence that comes with having WFA training. I think anyone who heads into the back country regularly should take it...😊

@AdventureOtaku

11 ай бұрын

Glad you found it helpful. Kudos has to go out to Dan for letting me use it. Thanks for watching!

@laurenpickens996

11 ай бұрын

@AdventureOtaku absolutely. Sorry I didn't drop some recognition his way!

@AdventureOtaku

11 ай бұрын

No worries.

i just happened into this fiasco via recommended links. went from dan's video to this one. i appreciate and jive with your tone and approach very much. also, one of my best friends worked for NOLS for a decade, first up here in Alaska and then managed the PNW. the way you guys care about people is great -- at least the ones i've met, can't speak for everyone 🙂 subscribed, and jealous of your van hehehe

@AdventureOtaku

16 күн бұрын

thanks for watching! and if I can build a van, you can build a van.

Brett this was excellent. I appreciate that your review wasn’t critical in affect but extremely instructive. Having taken the NOLS Wilderness first Aid Class (definitely worth it and I need a refresher), I can see how this video would be great for NOLS Class participants. Probably too much too include in the two days of training. But after the class, students could watch the Dan Becker or Eric Hanson videos, make observations and then watch this video with your observations and application of the class. So very, very helpful. Thanks so much for sharing this!

@AdventureOtaku

7 ай бұрын

Thanks, this was super fun, and thanks have to go to Dan for letting me use it. I haven’t watched Eric’s video yet, but I should. Thanks for stopping by.

@amywert8088

4 ай бұрын

@@AdventureOtaku Yes, to watching Eric's video, I hope many do and get a better picture from his side of it.

Excellent video ... wasn't sure I would like it but I listened to your every word...well done!

@AdventureOtaku

Жыл бұрын

Wow, thank you!Glad you enjoyed it!

I appreciate the break down! I just completed the NOLS Wilderness First Aid last weekend, so this is very informative!

@AdventureOtaku

2 ай бұрын

I hope you had a good course, thanks for watching.

Another great educational video Brett. You’ve made me remember what I’ve learned over the years, and of course added to my knowledge base. Thanks again and keep up the good work !

@AdventureOtaku

3 ай бұрын

Thanks for watching, glad I could be of service.

I felt many of the same concerns about this trip. Thank you for making an unbiased assessment of what went wrong. Hoping others will learn from your video and not make similar mistakes. The only thing I disagree with was leaving Dan to get the other two guys. Each had a Garmin in reach and could have texted to communicate. Activating the Garmin Inreach should have happened at the point Eric carried Dan’s bag. I agree they should have taken a break for hydration and warm food before continuing.

@AdventureOtaku

10 ай бұрын

A fair assessment, and Dan said in a comment here he wouldn't have wanted to be left alone. It is a big (and scary) decision point to leave a patient. I would have done it AFTER a full patient assessment (which never happened) and getting him hydrated and a little more comfortable. With the primary reason being he had to keep walking but he shouldn't have kept walking with a backpack. I didn't think of communicating inReach to inReach, I didn't know what was possible. But that is a good idea.

Excellent & very interesting episode!

@AdventureOtaku

Ай бұрын

Thanks, this was a fun one. Thanks for watching

My last WFA course was a year ago and my next one is still a year away, this has been a great refresher. Thank you

@AdventureOtaku

8 ай бұрын

You’re welcome! Thanks for watching!

I was long ago taught that you put the slower person at the front of the group, right behind the leader. it’s hard for me to understand why the others let Dan get that far behind. I would venture he neglected himself because he was pushing hard to catch up. Maybe he would have gotten sick anyway, but if they had been all together they could have made better decisions.

@AdventureOtaku

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely. They should have been together, or as I said at least in pairs. In thinking about what I would have done if I were Eric, when he came back to Dan and he broke down, I would have blown a whistle to try and get them to come back. That was the biggest issue in terms of RM.

@TheDaReel

3 ай бұрын

Always always stick together unless there’s an emergency, then kick your plan into gear safely. Slowest or most challenged person sets the pace is also a constant

@AdventureOtaku

3 ай бұрын

@TheDaReel exactly freaking right..

Very well done and very useful input!

@AdventureOtaku

4 ай бұрын

Thanks for watching Jim!

Awesome content as always, thanks.

@AdventureOtaku

Жыл бұрын

Thank you!

My husband and I have completed the NOLS Wilderness First Aid course twice now. It’s expensive for two of us and time consuming. But I fully believe that anyone adventuring tin the wilderness should run through at least that very basic class! It is such a help! Our so. Is a WFR and I wish I knew what he knows! Always have someone who has some of these basic skills on your trips! Thanks for this video. It was so helpful to see your response on the other side!

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

I totally agree that every trip should have someone trained. But the WFR isn’t that different than the WFA. The WFR gets a bit more anatomy and physiology. A handful more skills. BUT they get a lot more practice and that is really the big difference.

are they "professional" backpackers? or professional content producers who backpack?

@AdventureOtaku

Жыл бұрын

They are professional content producers who backpack. And do videos about backpacking and backpacking gear. If you have a couple of hundred thousand subscribers it pays well.

@breathe.move.perform.health

Жыл бұрын

@@AdventureOtaku and unfortunately their drive and desire went really awry. And unfortunately now Dan's body has cascaded downward spirals as his body continues to tell him something is up!

I work for an adolescent therapeutic wilderness company and leave Friday to get my WFR from NOLS. As a former AT attempted thru-hiker, I’m very excited for this opportunity and take I take student medical complaints seriously. Excited to learn more and nuance the care given. I absolutely agree with the psychological care lacking in this particular situation. Even as a non wfr, I am constantly asking and checking and watching how much water the students are consuming. In my experience…hydration solves a lot of problems…headaches, muscle aches/cramping, energy levels, etc. I came across this video looking for a review/run down of the NOLs WFR course and glad I watched it, though an extreme situation, I learned a lot about assessment. Oddly enough it boiled down to hydration (no pun intended). Can’t wait to start the class!

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

You’ll have a great time! I am sure.

Good call on the dehydration mention to his condition! BOOM!!! and cold air is dry air! Add mouth breathing strong at altitude......which I saw in some of the footage, AND the snoring when he was trying to recover can lead to more dehydration that one knows under other hiking/backpacking environmental conditions. Good call!

@AdventureOtaku

Жыл бұрын

AND air at altitude has less moisture. I didnt think of the snoring, but exactly right. Thanks.

@breathe.move.perform.health

Жыл бұрын

@@AdventureOtaku you are very welcome. One of the biggest factors of environmental adaptations is the ability to recover and intermittent hypoxia is one of the leading factors in not doing well. And many do not realize this very important means for recovery. Thanks!

Thank you for that breakdown and the differences in pain location btwn cardiac and connective tissues pain sources. Yeah, you never see anyone talking about or drinking water in the whole video. How much water do we blow off in an hour in cold environments? 0.5L/hr. I've read we can blow off a full litre overnight just in our sleeping bags.

@AdventureOtaku

9 ай бұрын

thanks for watching. Yeah, all that condensation in your tent is from you exhaling.

They've since done their own debrief where they go into a bit more detail about what went down, but I think you hit on all of the big RM points. They never mention doing an assessment, and I agree with you that that's one of the biggest points for improvement. Didn't hear anything about urine color which could have been a big tell both for dehydration and rhabdo.

@AdventureOtaku

Жыл бұрын

I intentionally didn’t watch any of the other videos because I didn’t want more detail (to cloud this video) but Ill watch them now. I should have mentioned urine color! Excellent point!

@MillerSean

Жыл бұрын

@@AdventureOtaku Solid approach. If you don't think a follow-up video would be redundant, I'd tune in for another. Love a good case study.

@sallypeters909

Жыл бұрын

Did he stop to urinate? That’s another “tell”… Did he stop to drink? Was he using a Hydration Bladder? Do the aforementioned other videos address those questions?

@AdventureOtaku

Жыл бұрын

I still haven’t seen them - tonight! - So I can’t answer. I don’t think he uses a hydration reservoir, because of the bottles on the sides of his pack, and we do know that people who use a reservoir stay better hydrated.

@MillerSean

Жыл бұрын

@@sallypeters909 I don't recall them mentioning anything significant about those. The tell that I was looking for was "tea colored" urine. That's a sign that the kidneys are struggling to filter out the toxins from muscle breakdown.

Thanks!

@AdventureOtaku

Жыл бұрын

Thank you!

This video and feedback is very helpful for me. When I watched Dan and Eric’s videos, I identified with Eric as the leader. “What would I have done as the leader?” On my backpacking trips with my buddies, I’ve given everyone a small walkie talkie in case we divide up. This has come in handy more than once. Eric could have stayed with Dan, radioed to the rest of the crew to leave their packs and come down to help bring Dan up.

@AdventureOtaku

7 ай бұрын

Agreed. I do whistles with people. Radios are expensive… But yeah, he shouldn’t have been left alone, he shouldn’t have carried a pack…. Thanks for watching.

I live in Florida (flat lands) and entered my first Peachtree Classic road race (10k) in Atlanta several years ago. I had not trained on hills so my body was not prepared, especially the downhill portions of the race. The downhills felt easy aerobically, but each stride was super hard on the quads. By that afternoon, my quads hurt so badly from lactic acid I could barely walk up or down stairs. I sympathize with Dan for thinking the uphills would be the hardest parts of the trip on his body.

@AdventureOtaku

6 ай бұрын

Yeah, I never liked the downhills either. He had a rough hike, that’s for sure.

Great info

@AdventureOtaku

9 ай бұрын

Glad it was helpful!

One question I have is whether taking Ibuprofen may have contributed to Dan’s Rhabdo? The reason I asked is, that several years ago, I had an upper back injury and had been taking Ibuprofen for a couple of weeks, not a huge amount (I thought), at about 5 per day or so. By the end of the second week, the pain in my back shifted lower and became unbearable, so I went to my doctor, to see if I could get some stronger pain relief meds. The Dr wanted to check my blood levels before prescribing anything, and I’m glad she did. She called me about an hour later and said I needed to get back to the hospital at once because I was in complete renal failure. The pain I felt was coming from my kidneys. She asked what meds I was taking and I told her and she said I was taking too much Ibuprofen for too long and it built up in my blood and was toxic to my kidneys. Fortunately for me, eliminating ALL medications and caffeine and pushing plain water helped flush out my kidneys and get them functioning again. I do have some permanent damage, but not noticeably so. Had Dan taken Ibuprofen, like the other guys had?

@AdventureOtaku

10 ай бұрын

I would be willing to bet he did take ibuprofen. But I doubt enough to give him similar kidney issues to what you had. But…the kidney issues you had leading to Rhabdo is pretty rare - though I will admit I had to check. I couldn’t remember the details on the two interacting. Great question though.

Awesome!

@AdventureOtaku

9 ай бұрын

Thanks for watching!

I think another person die in the same area around the same time. I do not recall the circumstance. Glad Dan is ok and improving. Good things can be learned here.

@AdventureOtaku

Жыл бұрын

My limited interaction with Dan in production of this video was pretty positive. He seems like a good guy. Thanks for watching.g

Hey, there are no light weights at altitude except backpacks! You getting ill when visiting your son in Denver is also not just cuz you live at altitude. It has more to do with your physiology. Bypassing it as the false beliefs without actually determining your physiological adaptations and breathing patterns is akin to what you mention in wilderness medicine and preparedness. Happy to have a conversation with you if you are interested in finding out more. Love your videos. Thanks!

@AdventureOtaku

Жыл бұрын

No I totally get that there are physiological reasons for it, but the way I describe works well in a simple video and I also didn’t want to minimize what he was saying about it being altitude. Thanks for watching!

@breathe.move.perform.health

Жыл бұрын

@@AdventureOtaku I see this alot where it is no big deal about altitude and many just push aside the sufferfest and there's really nothing to do about it mentality, which there are key preparedness practices that can make life more enjoyable out there. Cheers!

@breathe.move.perform.health

Жыл бұрын

@@AdventureOtaku where are you teaching Wilderness Emergency Medicine for NOLS this year?

I like Dan (personality) and I wish him the best and so glad he is ok...that said, make no mistake, he is a doughboy who has made a career playing "dress up" as an adventurer. The narrative Dan is trying to sell us, that he trained, and was just an athlete( dude walks duck-footed, and as very slouchy posture both sitting and STANDING) that pushed himself too hard, is laughable. Dan has said himself that he is a (professional?) tag-a-long (ha) who makes vids for a living( my words). Trying to keep up with Eric who was a professional guide for a while, and a couple of guys half his age really bit him in the a$$. I just hope his audience has learned a valuable lesson, doesnt matter how many 1000's of $$ of brand new gear you have. Being safe and prepared for the backcountry is an entirely different skill set, than breaking out the credit card....Guys like Dan are (one) of the reasons backcountry rescues and unfortunately deaths have increased significantly

@AdventureOtaku

10 ай бұрын

I only watch the occasional Dan video, so I can’t say anything about his athletic history, I was going by what he said in the video as well as a little “benefit of the doubt” But I hear ya.

"We can pitch a tent, we can sleep on the side of the trail"... sadly, this would also probably have gotten them in trouble with the law. One of these guys almost got 6 months in prison for camping "out of bounds". They'd probably still nail them for that even if they were in distress. The government is, apparently, very silly. Still, you're right, better to risk the time and survive than risk your life.

@AdventureOtaku

4 ай бұрын

It probably would have gotten them in trouble, if it were me I would fight what ever the penalty was with the argument we had a participant with a medical emergency. But you aren’t wrong… I wouldn’t say the government is silly, in situations like this I would say the government is actually misguided.

This hiking group ignored so many safety rules. Scary. Not geniuses

@AdventureOtaku

15 күн бұрын

Agreed.

Dan the Man....blew himself up. Should have slept in the car that night, Bro! Avoid the stuff that can kill ya. Miracles still happen. OR Z

@AdventureOtaku

4 ай бұрын

yeah, he had a tough one.