READ THIS IF YOU ARE ABOUT TO COMMENT! -> I want to thank everyone who watched, commented and liked this video. 15k views in three days....well, it is something I never thought I would see. I am teaching a WFA this weekend and am going to take the time to make a short follow up video as I want to respond to some of the amazing comments. Thanks everyone! UPDATE! The comments are taking a turn for the worse. If you are about to comment that REI’s problem is Executive cash grabs, identity politics, “wokeness” China or the fact that I am wearing Patagonia. Just move on. If you mention any of those topics your comment is getting deleted, and you are getting blocked from the channel. I welcome discussions on real topics, please be polite and respectful - I am very close to shutting down the comments here. Which I don’t want to do, because there are some really good one.

@burleism5158

5 ай бұрын

ewwww !!! blocked from the channel! Oh my what a stern little big man on the inter-webs! Your little denunciation screams woke Karen, so delete away Mr Moe

When small companies get bought out by larger corporate conglomerates the emphasis switches from customers to profits and both the employees and customers lose out.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Agreed!

I had a version of this conversation with an REI employee when I realized that they didn't really carry high end backpacking/hunting boots anymore. They're big enough now that they kind of have to cater to the masses... and the masses don't want (or need, i guess?) very specialized gear. The inner dirtbag in me still loves scrounging through the garage sale section. But my UL backpack came from Waymark, and I'm shopping down bags at Feathered Friends. I think we all still like REI, and it will be sad if they Eddie Bauer themselves.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Agreed. I will say you can get more expedition worthy gear online. Most REI stores have limited inventory

Interesting points. But, everytime I walk into REI, it makes me feel warm and fuzzy. I can't imagine this changing anytime soon.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Im glad for that, and me too…

@Jeffsdata_0

5 ай бұрын

I know…. It’s so good

@snort455

5 ай бұрын

I was just there today😊

Very interesting take. I've spent the past handful of years trying to do a lot of DTC shopping. My bed, bedding. Prescription glasses. Meals by mail. My shoes. My bike is DTC. I had "personalized" vitamins being sent to me. Lawn care products. I even tried one of those clothes by mail, with a style representative. The things I've noticed are a lot of these smaller, direct to consumer brands just fail. The company I purchased my rather expensive bike from just recently went into bankruptcy. The company that I got my mattress and bed frame from no longer exists. The stylish clothing company closed up shop, and tried to pass my business along to another. Another thing with these small, boutique, "direct from my basement" businesses: lead times. I've had some awesome, completely custom gear made for me. I got to pick basically every detail from the ground up. And it takes a long, long time to get. You have an event this weekend you want this gear for? Nope. Maybe 4-6 months from now. There is only so much one guy with a sewing machine can get done. Meanwhile I can go to a local store and get "the north face" version and come home with it today. Which is still an important thing to be able to do.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

An interesting take, I can’t speak to all the companies you tried. So far I have had no problem ordering product from zen bivy and Lendal. I am sure there would be a wait for a new boat from turning point. But there would be a wait from any high end boat company.

Thank you for this video. I’m a nature photographer, backpacker, and field biologist who joined REI in 1970 to prepare for 3 months of backpacking along the Appalachian Trail and in New York’s Adirondack Mountains. For more than 50 years, field work and photography have taken me to places where my life depends on my gear. Once upon a time, I visited REI almost every month to resupply gear I had consumed or that had worn out. My visits have declined over more than a decade. I now visit them once or twice a year and rarely find the gear I need. Most other field biologists and photographers I know say the same thing; all of us have turned to smaller “cottage” brands that provide the kind of quality and innovation we’re willing to trust our lives to. Based on your video and the comments here, we’re clearly not the only ones. Makes me question a business model that would lose customers who consistently spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on gear every year. Then I remembered that I bought my first backpack and cooking gear from Abercrombie & Fitch in the 1960s, when they were still the outfitter of choice for safaris and expeditions to the farthest reaches of the world. Looks like REI plans to follow the same well-worn trail so many other outdoor retailers have already taken.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Well I wouldn’t say it’s their plan, but it may be happening if they don’t find a way to adapt.

@Skidderoperator

5 ай бұрын

Go woke go broke 👍

It seems like all outdoor and adventure retailers always migrate towards apparel eventually. Maybe because it's easier to source or because consumers buy it more often. But I first saw this phenomenon happen with Abercrombie & Fitch. Back in the 1950's you buy elephants guns and all manner of safari gear on the 5th floor of their New York City store. Today it's just "fast fashion".

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

There is way more profit in clothing than in gear.

@barryomahony4983

5 ай бұрын

The same thing happened to Banana Republic, which started out as the Banana Republic Travel & Safari Clothing Company

@kevinobrien1810

5 ай бұрын

Surf companies were/are basically rag merchants. Those $100. boardshorts put a lot of their kids through college😎

The Garage Grown Gear is a great site for many of the cottage gear makers you mentioned. Thanks for this great video!

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

You bet!

I was a REI coop member 45 years ago and bought some pretty expensive things there like fiberglass ocean kayaks and all kinds of camping gear. I went in there to get some topo maps about 40 years ago and asked for help in locating them in the store. The sales assistant asked me what I was going to do in the area I was getting the maps for and I said to hunt deer. She freaked out like I was going to murder someone. I walked out and never went back.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

I am sorry they had that reaction, but at the same time, one bad interaction shouldn't end a relationship with a company you trust and rely on.

@Chris_at_Home

5 ай бұрын

@@AdventureOtaku REI now donates a share of their profits to groups that close access for certain uses so I’ll never go back. Besides I’ve moved up from the things they sell to river running products made by companies like Aire. I have a pair of Aire Travelers I can use singly or together with a frame.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

@Chris_at_Home got a link to something about who they are donating too?

@Chris_at_Home

5 ай бұрын

@@AdventureOtaku I saw it in their financial statements years ago.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

I searched and only found one article that talked about limiting motorized vehicle access to some trails (and this particular article said it was the work of the department of the interior, The Sierra Club and REI). It was over a decade old, and since then REI has embraced the overlanding community. If it was something else I would love to see it, but that was all I could find.

From a consumer perspective, I've been shopping at REI since the early 80's and I still enjoy shopping there. The turning point for me was the ultralight movement in the early 2000's, which revolutionized backpacking. As I got into my 30's and had less time to spare, ultralight enabled me to do more in a shorter period, and with less pain. I realized that most of the gear at REI was not what I needed. However, I think REI's biggest weakness is that it is following an old business model that is struggling in this bad economy. Small, direct-to-consumer companies have more power and agility than ever before, and they have a better chance of surviving.

@AdventureOtaku

4 ай бұрын

Totally agree. The only thing I will disagree with is the bad economy. They are making more revenue than ever. It’s s just their operating expenses have continued to increase and part of that is that they keep raising pay for employees.

Great business analysis. Last year I bought a canoe from a small(ish) builder through a local (independent) dealer. This year I ordered a powerboat from a small manufacturer, before the big marine corps buy them up and raise the price 30% and add a ton of lip stick no one needs. So cool such businesses exist (hope they continue to).

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Me too!

Thank you so much for sharing this perspective. It’s almost like going back to the ‘80s!

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Hey thanks for watching!

I don't how REI is but it seems like some of these companies are just trying more to sell clothes rather than gear. I buy most of my backpacking ger from cottage companies. I always thought that store where all these cottage companies gear was sold would be awesome, but it wouldn't do well because the masses want cheap instead of quality. GGG is kind of the online version of that.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

There is way more profit in a piece of clothing, than in a piece of gear.

@nunyabidness3075

5 ай бұрын

Yep, all companies are supposed to make money. Don’t hate on companies because they are big or successful. The question is, how does REI add value back into the community. Is it through low prices, higher quality stuff, imparting knowledge, charity, or something else? Also, what damage do they do? Selling durable and functional clothing to LARPers who only hike around the neighborhood doesn’t bother me one bit. My pet peeve is companies selling trash kayaks that are bad for paddling and the environment. People buy them, have a bad time, and often lose interest. Then the plastic litters their yard or some pond until going to the landfill. Had they gone to a decent outfitter, rented a boat, and had a better time, they might have had a better appreciation and actually saved money and later looked at buying a quality, life time boat. I still give REI a pass. You get decent gear at decent prices and even reasonably good advice most the time.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

agreed. on all counts.

@josephmello4517

5 ай бұрын

True for places near me

As a person who used to use REI frequently (card holder and member for 25+ years) in the past 10+ years I have purchased primarily from local &/or cottage vendors. I still use REI for maybe maps or small things, but that's about it. I also don't believe their outspoken political leanings have helped them much either.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Having worked for REI (member for 25 years, employee for 15) I can say that their “outspoken political leanings” hasn’t hurt them at all. It is speaking to their base and the bulk of their employees.

@backwoodstrails

5 ай бұрын

I know several people that avoid REI because of their political leanings, and I am in California.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

I don't doubt that you do. It's a fraction of a percent.

Great video. Sounds like the US is going the way we did about 15-20 years ago. Local companies down here in NZ have been making Perception and Johnson Outdoors (probably others) for many years. What the local companies have done is adapt the kayaks to meet local needs, something that many local brands have always done. For a fairly small country, of a bit over 5 million, we have a huge number of kayak manufacturers.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

That sounds exciting! I wish that would happen here!

Business owners will do what they’ve always done, by and large. Many of the outdoors brands we all know were started by an individual working in their garage. In a couple of decades the cottage brands we know and love today will, most likely, also be either defunct or bought out.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

You’re right, except I suspect that with the ease of internet commerce will keep some of these companies private. Some of these companies are making a surprising amount of money so it would take a massive buy out offer for them to change course. But we shall see over time.

They need to get people running the company who actually specialize in each of the outdoors ventures, if they don’t they are not going to make it! I am a big outdoors person and I can go into their store and not find a good reason to buy one of their products and if I did they would be more money! This guy on this video sounds like the guy who should be running their products innovation 🙌

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

as the guy in the video, thank you for your kind words. I don’t think I am cut out to run anything at REI, but man I would love to take a handful of their staff on a paddling trip and teach them about the kayaking lifestyle.

Thank you for a great video! This completely explains and validates what I have been feeling recently about REI. I’ve been a member for more than 35 years. I have loved it and its people. Sadly, it just isn’t what it used to be. It was an entirely different company 20-30 years ago. I still love the store and its ambiance but it’s really gone downhill. Until this video I had thought it was mostly due to post-pandemic blues like so many other companies. What you say about small shops is so true. Those are my new happy places where you find the passion and innovative products that REI used to have once upon a time. I think your analysis is spot on!

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Thanks for watching!

Thanks for the feature Brett! Btw, I have kayak for you to try out in two weeks. Let’s touch base then.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

My pleasure Joey, thanks for making great boats. Ill be in touch.

Durston, Zpacks, gossamer gear, enlightened equipment, katabatic, atstakes, Vargo, are all other great cottage companies and there are so many more that I’m forgetting.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Exactly.

While I would agree with most of your observations, it’s important to keep in mind the business cycles which are always in play. Just about all of the corporate companies you dislike (and I do too) started as cottage companies. They grew until someone offered them more money than they could refuse and were acquired by a corporation. Or they made some noise for a while and faded away. Most of the cottage companies we admire today will not be in business in a decade. Those that are successful will be acquired by corporations. And new cottage companies will spring up to take their place. This is a cycle which has taken place for decades, and while technology does change the landscape, the fundamentals which drive this cycle are still the same. In my opinion of course.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

You’re right to a degree - you are leaving out the part where the former owner of the now purchased at a ridiculously high price cottage brand comes back after their non-compete expires. Which we saw with Wilderness systems - purchased by Johnson and then the next iteration was Native water craft. equally we saw it with Lotus designs, purchased by Patagonia (believe it or not) and the former owner started Astral. However I think there is a difference, and the difference is the internet and direct to customer sales. Which in previous cycles didn’t exist. Now a company can open in a basement in Canada (and say, hypothetically make Cuban fiber trekking pole tents) and have world wide access to customers and easy distribution thanks to online sales. So I think this iteration of that cycle is different. Of course we did just see Yeti buy Mystery Ranch… And of course my hypothetical wasn’t hypothetical at all…. If you dig a little.

@bobdrago6965

5 ай бұрын

Exactly. 10 years from now it’ll be “they’ve sold out to the big corporations “ in the end, most of them do.

@PoorWorksmanship

5 ай бұрын

Similar to what Dana Gleason has done 2-3 times now with Dana Designs and now possibly Mystery Ranch, no?

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

I think definitely mystery ranch

Saturation and the law of diminishing returns are the reason why si many companies go out of business. How many packs and stoves and boots and tents does one need? Like the beer industry...too many brewers and selections of IPA or those stupid flavored beers.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Don’t get me started on the beer industry.

@kennyc388

4 ай бұрын

...........stupid flavored beers. Absolutely perfect ! Thank you !

I'd have to say the unique thing about REI is that it's a Cooperative. I plunked $5 down for a lifetime membership in 1983 and I think it was a good investment. I look forward to getting dividends and looking for good deals on footwear that I use everyday. If REI is going to change and adapt, it's going to be up to the membership to steer the course, even if it is into oblivion... Yeh, I don't remember voting on REI officers or issues for several decades now. We used to get ballots in the mail. Now I guess members have to seek out such things on the homepage.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Yup, I paid ten for my membership and it was a great investment. I think you are right, the voting is now done online. A lot of people complain that the board members are picked so it isn’t really a vote…. They pick all the options.

@moryan6447

5 ай бұрын

I have been an REI member for many years. I always try to buy from it. Sorry it’s struggling.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

The fact is, and this is true of a lot of companies right now, they aren't struggling on sales. It's operating expenses that are killing them. At least based on what I see online. (Their financials are all public)

@hdavies0

5 ай бұрын

Look to MEC in Canada as a cautionary lesson in how cooperatives can be hijacked.

@PoorWorksmanship

5 ай бұрын

Current employee here. The outdoor industry as a whole is struggling post-covid and REI is suffering along with everyone else. Specialized has dropped a lot of their sponsored riders, Chain Reaction Cycles/Wiggle has gone bankrupt in the UK, QBP has shut down All-City Cycles, and on and on.

Love your perspective, and thanks for introducing me to 3 new companies I need to check out.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Any time!

Some thoughts from an old Canadian canoeist who worked in retail paddlesports. KZread and digital purchasers has really had an impact on the paddling world. People watch videos from their favourite paddling influencers and want the gear they use. They can buy this gear digitally and have it delivered to their home. Swift Canoe and Kayak has been working on a direct to buyer program by having a truck haul a trailer load of boats all over North America and delivering directly to customers. I know a lady that goes to a local high end outdoor store to try on the clothing and then goes home and orders it online. I believe that retailers are in a squeeze they either must take the big box store system of business or go under. People have turned away from the pro shops.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

You are right, but there are two things I will disagree with, even if only in part. Ive said this in other comment responses, REI has always considered (since my start with them in 2006) Amazon as their biggest threat and we regularly saw people shopping in the store with their phone out, and then buying online. This is nothing new. The way you fight that is with expertise - and unfortunately in October REI fired all its most tenured staff. I work a great deal with a Pro Shop in NC called Get Outdoors. They are doing really well because they own a small region that everyone goes to. A region that contains 4 REI’s So it can be done but it takes work.

I did like going to REI to get a tactile feel of the product or try the fit but they just don’t have the proper selection anymore. Not just innovative products but seasonal products. A friend wanted a complete backcountry set up, in other words spending north of $3K. REI in NM had almost no gear with the exception of a few bindings. This is one of the fastest growing sections in the snow sport world. I wanted to buy some skins for an another pair of skis. REI had one pair for very short skis. If you can’t meet customer demand you can’t last.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Part of the problem there is that REI has over 150,000 skus on their website. NO store could have that kind of availability of product in all their stores. I get your frustration though.

I was asked to fill out a survey from REI several years ago. Under comments I stated that I thought they should carry more cottage maker gear. No response and they didn't. Now we have Garage Grown Gear that represents a load of small companies gear that's mostly for hiking and backpacking. I love the quality and innovation from the small companies. I still shop REI but I am growing tired of the same old stuff.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Agreed. They can’t really bring in actual cottage stuff because the small manufacturers can’t supply enough. That is just one of many reasons

Hey Brett, this was in my feed and I'm happy it was. We're kindred spirits. I'm celebrating my 30th year with REI and paddling has been my passion; also OPO and Outreach (before we got canned). Thank you for your contributions to outdoor education and helping people get outdoors. So much to ponder, but here are some salient points: (1) In 2024 REI will largely stop carrying hard shell boats and SUPs in stores; also will be substantially reducing inventory in other hard goods categories. Why? Profit margins, supply chain issues. (2) REI is making an effort to nurture some cottage industry type brands, focusing on gender equality clothing lines and providing more sizes and shapes that reflect the wider variety of humans apart from athletic sized stereotypes. Once upon a time all the elite brands catered to elite athletes, but realized they couldn't keep the lights on by selling, for instance, only the best down gear or mountaineering tents or carbon kayaks. With growth comes accommodation to address the needs of a growing customer base, which also can dilute product quality for the highest end but lowest volume gear. Hence, Black Diamond's most profitable product line is their headlamps. I believe you're right about the internet being a big change agent in providing quality gear, and as supply chains continue to falter in abilities to deliver excellence for reasonable prices more openings will exist for cottage industries to make a living by addressing needs of niche markets that continue to expand. Paddle on!

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Hey Robert, thanks for stopping by. That is interesting info. Sad to hear about the boats, but REI has always had issues shipping boats to stores. I can’t tell you how many damaged Delta’s I saw coming into my store. Where did you work for OPO and Outreach?

@robertcook1344

5 ай бұрын

@@AdventureOtaku hi Brett, I’m in the Denver Market. Too bad about your virtual outfitting getting the boot as well. All the best to you!

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Did you work with Jenn G. She was a senior in the Denver Market.

Pretty elite kind of stuff. Cottage is great if it is your cottage or your neighbors or even in your state. But most of us will never have access to custom or purpose built equipment even if we could afford it. Hell, we just got our closest REI a couple of years ago and it's 300 miles away. Your cottage concept would drive most equipment sales to 3rd party sellers on Amazon. More consolidation of sales options is not something the world needs.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Why would it go to Amazon when they can sell it direct to customer and not have to pay amazons ridiculous fees?

Thoughtful video. On reflection, As I think back on my entry into Kayaking over the last two years, I realize that I haven't bought anything from REI. Additionally, I also haven't bought anything from local retailers. Frankly that surprised me but I guess it's a reflection of the current market.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Exactly. I bought a bilge pump from REI last year because I was desperate

People that want the cutting edge stuff usually specialize in a particular activity. Most people do several different things and can't afford to buy the very newest and best equipment of every different outdoor activity. The middle of the road stuff at the big stores works just fine for most people. If somebody is passionate about one of their activities they might splurge on a single item but, not cut themselves off from doing other things just because they can't afford the very best in everything. We need the midling brands so alot more people can get out and do "stuff"!

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Ive been thinking about this since you posted it. Yes, the middle of the road stuff at the big box stores works just fine for most people. Im not saying we don’t need the middling brands. But a company should have a range of products in line. And companies like wilderness systems took away its high end stuff…..

I can’t blame REI. The internet has destroyed retail. I’m a cyclist and could count on going there to find all the accessories I needed but since COVID, not anymore. People became accustomed to buying online. It’s expensive to stock inventory in a store and they aren’t getting the turns they used to, so they stock the most popular. Adding to this is the search engines push us towards the advertisers and it becomes very hard to get results withe the boutique brands showing. I’ve needed a handlebar bag for my bike and search results completely ignore the specified size/feature and give me whatever same old, same old 😢. I don’t know what the answer is.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

You aren't wrong.....

Although I'm all for cottage/small vendors and choose them whenever possible, unfortunately these vendors are simply not scalable and often prohibitively expensive to the average consumer. I love hand-made sandals, but the reality is the cost of such small scale operations, and therefore the cost to the consumer, makes it impossible for most people to consider. Granted that the major retail brands at REI (Patagonia, NorthFace, etc.) are also expensive and way overpriced at MSRP, it is at least feasible to shop sales/used products to acquire decent gear. Perhaps this does not apply to your target audience, but for the average Joe, most brands at REI are out of reach, not to mention a boutique brand.

@bobdrago6965

5 ай бұрын

Thank you. Exactly!

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

I don’t disagree with you. But I’ll be honest, I am still figuring out who my target audience is! And most of the viewers of this video aren’t my normal viewers. Hopefully some of them stick around.

@kajkob

5 ай бұрын

@@AdventureOtaku Ah interesting, I wonder why the algorithm fed this particular video to a new audience

Pretty interesting points. I agree with Matt Gordon's comment. It is sad when good companies get bought out, then lose the reason that company got big and famous (great products and people), and everything goes to profit. But I love dealing with the small guys. THATS when we don't mind paying a little more. I believe and always say out loud, we have to support the small guys. The conglomerates with big manufacturing and buying power, can still be expensive (for no apparent reason) ... So why not buy from the small guy. Even just small "hole in the wall" (I call em) shops... Which are getting rare.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Totally agree

I've had positive experiences with Garage Grown Gear and Oru Kayak 😊

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

That's awesome!

Just checked the price of turning point boat makers. The cost is $5000 a kayak to solve those problems right now. I applaud them, and I'm happy to see fantastic products being manufactured. Who doesn't love a Ferrari? Unfortunately, 99% of paddlers won't be able to take advantage because of the prohibitive cost. So is this a solution, absolutely, but not for the ordinary man at the present time. Who knows, with innovation of material, labor, technology, we may see the price come down over time.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Totally agree, they are very expensive. I would love one, but that is why I don’t own one.

@TurningPointBoatworks

5 ай бұрын

The problem solved is a big one. We’ve been lied to for years about how much kayaks actually weigh. We just kept beating the light weight drum until people really started listening. The kayaks cost what they cost because of the technology required to make them light. Sales are strong and we are making very strong strides in the market. So much so, that a major scale up is in the planning stages now. In the composite realm, we are nestled in nicely in terms of price. No longer the highest and certainly not the lowest. P&H has seen the light now too and are close to us on weight, but their lightest layups are now more than $7k. A bit of an interesting stat. Our top selling layup is the middle in terms of price point and the average retail is about $5500 for one of those. Our sales break down to 60% mid level construction, 40% Top line (with an average retail price of $6900) and 0% entry level construction. We haven’t built a fiberglass version, which is our entry level layup in almost two years! The composite market has changed, we saw this happening a long time ago. If you are going to get top level performance and light weight, it’s going to come at a premium. If you are going to spend that kind of money, you are going to get exactly what you want and not settle for what is available off the shelf.

@Scrubjay001

5 ай бұрын

@@TurningPointBoatworks I appreciate that quality. 1% of paddlers will possess it and be very grateful. It's a good thing, truly.

@tommyrq180

5 ай бұрын

They are solving a problem, for sure-which is that for the people who can afford a premium product, they are actually offering a custom, ultra-premium product (essentially built with unbeatable attention to detail) at about the same cost as less well-produced, more difficult to customize ones. They are a niche builder who is, in my view, creating a niche for themselves that will be very, very hard to enter by others due to their quality control. If they can sell these boats, then more power to them! I suspect, as they do, that the high-end kayak market is more than willing to respond. 🇺🇸

@Scrubjay001

5 ай бұрын

@@tommyrq180 for the very small percentage of people that can afford that, that is truly fantastic, and I applaud both seller and buyer.

Great perspective from an industry insider with hands-on experience. I lament the disappearance of the "mom & pop" gear companies. Now owned by equity capitalists who close down American-based manufacturing and outsource to asia. Getting hard to find the homegrown places. This episode was in my daily YT feed, liked the content very much so I subscribed. Cheers.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Thanks for subscribing. I should point out REI was founded by importing ice axes (which is why they are on the front doors of all their stores) from Europe. It was never about selling US made gear. The gear they sell is made overseas (in both directions) because that is where gear is made. With the exception of cottage brands who are doing it in their basements, garages, and small workshops.

Great video. I've suspected for a few years how companies I've previously purchased from have sold out to mega corporations. That's a scary thing for sure. No innovation as you say and, complete control of a brand.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

And their eye only on the bottom line.

Thanks Brett, your video was a lot more interesting than I anticipated it would be (that's a compliment to you!). Yep, cottage industries are great, having that closeness to their product and the customer. I would rather support small companies that I respect, than huge global companies who maybe just appear to be a "native" company. When I paddled in Wales, throughout the 80s into the very early 90s I bought my paddles from Lendl in Scotland, and they were great. (their first wing paddles look weird now, but at the time we were really happy with them). Moving to Japan I had to source things from all over. Since the mid-90s I have bought most of my paddles from Knysna Racing in South Africa. They have been fantastic. I wanted to try some pogies for keeping the tropical sun off my hands in summer and I found a tiny company in Scotland making custom pogies in whatever colour patterns you desire. The pogies were great, although a bit warm for here! These companies are fantastic, especially when they are still small enough for you to order direct. Once middlemen / importers start to appear, yes it gets easier with bigger stuff, but prices start to go up. I guess the challenge is how to keep these cottage industries as they are, as it seems many succeed, but then that opens them up to being bought out and absorbed into those mega companies you talked about. For some small companies it's taken them decades to build up to where they are and perhaps selling the company on is a kind of pension scheme coming to fruition - which is totally understandable. I guess my message is: support the cottage industries, wherever they might be, but be prepared to change allegiance if they change.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Glad you like it. And yes. Support the cottage brands.

Love it. Bought a cottage industry backpack from ULA out of Utah. - love it…. You’d never find them at REI.

@AdventureOtaku

4 ай бұрын

You wouldn’t. For many reasons.

I've been an REI member for three decades. They used to be great because they were often the only place pre internet where we could get gear and get it delivered (pretty much world wide if you were in the military. I think unfortunately they just got to big and corporate.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

I unfortunately agree....

The cottage industries thinking further out than you'd guess. Depending on what stage of business development they're in, they're wondering whether they can afford to hire someone, or rent space to get out of their house, or commit to making 500 of a a particular tent. The ones that don't look forward, usually fail. It's also worth noting that most of the kayak brands owned by larger companies were bought out of bankruptcy or near bankruptcy by venture capital firms.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

You are probably right in terms of how far out they are looking. In dealing with Zen bivy I have been amazed by the back door info I have seen and it is mind blowing how deep they are thinking in terms of product. On the Bankruptcy though, I would need to see data….Wildernss systems wasn’t in bankruptcy. Black diamond wasnt….are you referring to a specific company?

@wisenber

5 ай бұрын

@@AdventureOtaku Check into Confluence Outdoors acquisitions before they were acquired by Pelican. Johnson Outdoors has a similar history of buying distressed assets. Old Towne did the same many times before SC Johnson bought them then sold them. It's really been going on dating back to the 19th Century and probably before. Ironically, the more advanced material boats (carbon, kevlar, etc) is among the least expensive markets to enter from a capital investment perspective. The engineering, equipment and minimum order for plastic boats is mush higher than a vacuum bagger. The limit on 3D currently is size. A printer to make items 8 inch cube or under isn't big, but a printer that can produce a boat is up there with thermaforming. The direct to consumer market makes economic sense, but it does deprive buyers of any opportunity to lay their hands on anything before buying unless they visit the factory.

@barry4fish19

5 ай бұрын

I have talked to several paddle shops that carry the Confluence brands, among others. They all have told me no decline in quality since Pelican bought them out in 2019, if anything the ordering, shipping and assembly QA at the factory has improved. I have even heard from more than one source, that Confluence Outdoors was acquired to save Pelican, not the other way around, which is interesting. Most polyethylene touring kayaks made in the US fall under the Confluence umbrella and as long as there are rocky rivers to float, there will be a market for them. I have a new Tsunami and a Dagger Stratos and am happy with what I bought them for, but they aren’t my favorites. Let’s see what happens.

@wisenber

5 ай бұрын

@@barry4fish19 I'm down to two rotomolded boats. A 1998 Dagger sea kayak and a 2010 WaveSport Ethos. They certainly have their uses. I have an old Epic 18x that's getting long in the tooth after about 20k miles of abuse, and a 1992 Klepper. The last 15 or so years, I've been making my own ranging from skin on frame, stitch and glue, tortured ply and even fiberglassed foam. For the most part, I think I'm done with the commercial market except for whitewater. Making your own to your own spec is a pretty gratifying experience, even when it's a flop. Same with paddles.

@bc4198

5 ай бұрын

​@@AdventureOtakuIf not the kayak companies, then certainly many of the others - for example, BD buying Chouinard Equipment Company.

Also just a note about your book links. A couple of the kayaking links to Amazon dont seem to work. I was able to find the books by following one of the other links so the pages are still active.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Thanks! I’ll check them out

Been a member of the REI CoOp since the 70's and buy during their 20% off sales throughout the year. Nevertheless, I frequent Garage Grown Gear which supports many cottage industry businesses over the entire outdoor gear spectrum. I bought a custom backpack from Atom Packs in the UK last year. Would never have heard of this tiny company if it were not for KZread.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Which is one of the ways that these little companies are growing that didn’t exist in previous decades. Back then a companies only hope was getting bought out. Now they don’t need to!

I remember walking into an REI and thinking wow, great selections and ok prices. That was a long time ago.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Im shooting the follow up video this, this week. Based mostly on some really great comments. Price will be a discussion point.

Hi Brett. I love REI - been a member >20 years - but you're right about their stuff being mostly mid-tier. And I've learned to never buy their house brand stuff because it's pretty much on par with Amazon branded stuff (not good). Anyway, I'm so excited that you mentioned Turning Point Boatworks! I saw that you follow their social media, and was wondering if you had paddled one of their boats and might put out a video about it. I demoed a Petrel Play (basalt/innegra layup) a couple months ago, and now have one on order. It's a fantastic boat, and I love supporting boutique manufacturers who are creating superior products. Sure, it's expensive, but it's still cheaper than a mountain bike!

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Joey just reached out to me that he has a boat for me to test paddle. We will see if we can make it work out.

@suebrown8129

5 ай бұрын

Nice! I haven't met him yet, but he seems like a good dude. Be warned, though, that you will have to try to explain what "basalt/innegra" is every. single. time. someone sees the boat! 🤣 @@AdventureOtaku

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Well, it’ll be a test paddle. I’ll be honest I can’t afford one of his boats

@barry4fish19

5 ай бұрын

Brett- You have a high probability of wanting one of these after you test paddle it. I have the chance to demo one in a couple months but I am afraid to, already have too many boats.

@suebrown8129

5 ай бұрын

@@barry4fish19 Can confirm: it happened to me!

Great points. So disappointing to see all these small paddlesport makers being sold to the conglomerates. They phase out good lines because they already bought another company that may have similar models ie: Necky gone. Old Town can make those boats. I never owned a Necky but there’s a lot of paddlers who still have them and I don’t see models in Old Town that have the same lines. Andy Zimmerman sole Wilderness and I don’t see the touring models like the old days. I did not know Aquabound and Bending Branches were under the same parent company. Interesting information! Thank you for sharing all that.

@AdventureOtaku

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, and it used to be that Wilderness systems was the “high end” brand under confluence and perception was the “middle” of the product line. But over the years they have thinned both lines…. It’s super sad….

Love my Eddyline Sitka LT and Werner Kalliste paddle.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Both are great choices.

@leeanderson5955

5 ай бұрын

Good stuff, just curious why you didn’t mention Werner Padfles? Even though this brand is ubiquitous among paddlers everywhere, the factory is a somewhat smaller affair staffed by nice and helpful folks. The Werner factory/HQ is a little place in Monroe, WA only 20 minutes from my home. I bought two Camano kayak paddles from them, directly from them at their HQ. I would suggest a follow up to this video and mention Werner, Delta, Eddyline, Seaward, and others as small shop, big quality producers.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

First, let me say, I love Werner paddles. Have used them for decades. And While I love the Lendal I am using after decades of using Werner’s it still makes me nervous to embark on a long trip without a Werner as a backup. Purely psychological… with that said. Werner doesn’t fit the description of a cottage brand. Yes, they are smaller than Aqua bound. But they produce a TON of paddles - they can supply REI is a good indicator of that. Also, at the beginning of the video I said Aquabound/bending branches are the largest maker of paddles in the world but I added “if you believe the numbers” I said that because some numbers actually say Werner is the largest by volume of paddle. But because I love Werner, AND they are privately owned, I didn’t want to lump them in with the other companies. Similar with Delta. (I also pick on Delta enough already that they no longer support me on Social media, check out my Delta 17 long term review.) I don’t want to piss them off further. I could probably include Eddyline in a follow up video, but I would have to dig a little deeper to be sure. Similar for Seaward. I think you are probably right that seaward belongs on a list like this - I know NOLS has the largest fleet of seaward kayaks in the world, and it was my great pleasure to get to paddle them. I would actually love to test paddle a seaward guide 17….

It’s funny how perspective works. Being from a specialty shop, I and nearly all those that I know, view REI as a big box just like all the other big boxes. We would actually say something like, “yea, that's a brand they carry at those box stores like REI”. It used to be that specialty retailers (brick and mortar) were the absolute backbone of any given industry. “Specialty” meant focus, specifically to a certain or very small group of activities (Ski shop, paddle shop, climb shop, etc.). Specialty stores got exclusivity protection (vendors didn't open accounts with shops close together) and the best support from their partnering vendors. Now, there is no exclusivity. Big boxes have nearly all brands (in every activity - except skateboarding. There are also direct sales, which ironically pits the vendor directly against their brick and mortar partners. Most of this happened because what you were explaining about the conglomeration of all those paddle companies, also happened in most other outdoor industries - again, except skateboarding. It makes it difficult for a small company to make a mark and thrive in such a “corporately controlled” climate. I hope that more small companies like the ones you mention can hang on and make a difference. But remember, the small shops were there before the big boxes, not the other way around. The small shop were the ones that built each of their respective industries; built them up enough to where big boxes could be conceptualized and created. Very good video by the way.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Glad you liked the video, thanks for watching. I really think the ease of direct to consumer abilities today are going to take a lot of this away from both the big boxes as well as some specialty stores. But we will see.

REI was one of the go to stores up to the 1970s. Starting in the 80s I could see they were starting to depart from their core customers. As a member I bought a lot from REI back then. These days they are essentially just another store. If you want the best you have to find it someplace else. I remember the Anchorage store was excellent in the 80s. That might still be the exception.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

The anchorage store is a “flagship” store, so a bigger selection and more expedition worthy gear. I haven’t been to fairbanks that is probably similar.

Thanks for the vid! I'm a MTBer, skier/snowboarder, climber, wheeler, camper, hiker etc. I don't think I've considered buying gear from REI in almost a decade. A lot of the gear at REI tends to be pretty entry level or very limited selection. This isn't universal, but if I need serious gear that is going to keep me safe, warm, dry and performing well I'm going to a specialty store for that sport or researching and buying online. 100% true or not I view REI as a place city people who want to go on a recreational hike buy pants at.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

While you are right that REI mostly caters to Beginners and people new to the outdoors. As a former NYC native I would say don't underestimate the outdoor communities in cities. I used NY as a springboard to hike most of the AT, Mountain bike and climb in NY, NJ and Connecticut, and paddle all over the world.

@bigslacker666

5 ай бұрын

@@AdventureOtaku Sorry, that was localized lingo. I live in a mountain/ski town that sees hordes of folks from a sorta nearby major city every weekend/holiday so 'casual outdoor enthusiast' turns into city people our just tourist. In no way meant to say there aren't experienced and amazing outdoorspeople who also live in cities!

Feels good to work with independent brands, now establishing Zenbivy in Europe, making these game-changing sleep systems and dry bags much more accessible (and cheaper) for Europe...

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

That’s awesome!

Great view point.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Thanks for stopping by

I agree with you. However, i have seen this before. Starts out small DTC brand. Gets popular and demand outpaces growth. Then the retail offer comes in and you can buy them at REI. I think REI still holds an edge in the niche outdoor goods retail space. Innovations have just slowed due to many factors for the big brands. You see them moving more towards general purpose because they have not recouped R&D costs, high manufacturing costs for their 1% product lines, and over-inventory.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

You may be right, but the impetus for this video was some reliable but back channel info I got about a high end cottage tent manufacturer. They made close to $20 million in revenue last year. A company with almost no overhead making that kind of money has no reason to sell out. Except they are tired and are just selling the name and designs. I think this cycle of this is going to be different. DTC has never been this easy.

This video says a lot. I too have been seeing a change in REI over the last 14 years and it is not a change for the good. To me, it looks REI is focused too much on the urban scene rather than the full-on Backpacking, hiking, climbing, wilderness camping and cycling arena and carrying their own in-house products like packs, backpacking gear, chalk bags and other climbing gear along with lots of various clothing items. They seriously had a lot of really neat/cool things! Around 2010, the products REI carried started to become rather boring like Camelback's product lines have become and stopped carrying more varieties of brands and other brands varieties of gear like minimalizing the lines of like Leatherman, Swiss Army knives and Petzel brands they carry for example. Plus 'many' of the products REI carries are way too expensive and is more for people with deeper pockets. I like REI and I want them to stick around and with that being said, I think they need to look at their past and see how things were being done back in REI's glory days of the mid 90's to 2010.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

REI isn’t going anywhere. But I do think they need to make changes to stay at the forefront .

If independent companies are unable to bring prices closer to their corporate competitors they will not be able to serve the masses.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

I don’t think their goal is to serve the masses…. It think there goal is to serve outliers, until innovation spills down to lower levels. THEN the masses will be served. Innovation will always carry a premium price tag.

Great video! Thanks for the information. I really appreciate how you approached this issue.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for watching.

Another example of a small company that creates superior products direct to consumers is Gearlab Outdoors. Their traditional Greenland paddles are made using advanced materials and techniques. They are a very small company that designs paddles for a specialized market. This niche approach seems to fit into the message of your vlog.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

I did a review of their deck bags! Great little company.

Almost all of my gear for camping, canoeing, backpacking, and cycling come from cottage companies, and they have for years. I pick up random things at REI, but it is not my go too for a big ticket item. We used to have a local outdoor outfitter here that carried a lot of cottage products, but the owners aged out and closed the the store. That will most likely force me even more online instead of going to REI, who by and large just doesn't carry what i want or use. I don’t hate on them for selling to the family campers, they're really good for that, but i don't have sympathy for companies that cry poverty but have alienated their core customer base and driven them away. If you're company is in a race to the middle, don't be surprised when the innovative leaders and their customers drop you.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

How have they alienated their core customer base? Their core customer is new to the outdoors. They are doing just fine there.

@Chris-pw7ov

5 ай бұрын

@@AdventureOtaku By not carrying products that "outdoors people" really use. I don't know any backpackers or canoers who outfit with them. Most want lightweight options. REI caters to the beginner to mid range customer, whereas it used to be a niche category of people that were "outdoorsy" . My hammock, tent, tarps, backpack, quilts, puffy, paddle, canoe bags, etc.. Can't be purchased at REI. It seems silly that an outdoor company isn't even in the conversation for first place to go to purchase equipment.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Gotcha. They do cater to entry level backpackers, who haven't yet delved into the lightweight world.... Don't get me started on paddle sports.

Thank you for sharing. This is a common, re-occurring trend in every industry and every aspect of life in a capitalist economy.

@AdventureOtaku

22 күн бұрын

Thanks for watching.

I'm a "6 Digit" REI member. Since 1977. My first REI purchase in 1977 was for backpacking gear, but more recently most of my REI purchases were for bicycle parts. In that category REI has become an absolute joke. They'll carry a particular derailleur, but not the matching shifter. They discontinued the most common Shimano 11 speed chain (LG500), which is probably the most frequently replaced part on a bicycle after tires. It makes absolutely no sense, unless some pencil pusher decided that that particular chain wasn't profitable enough. At any rate, I can't count on REI anymore to have everything I need for a given repair project or trip. REI also kicked Klean Kanteen to the curb in favor of the more trendy Stanley brand of cups and bottles. And don't get me started on REI no longer carrying men's plus size footwear.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

The chain decision was probably made by someone at HQ, however if your REI has a bike repair shop ask the Master/Certified tech why they don’t have them. The senior techs (sometimes a master tech, sometimes a certified tech) has the ability to order their own parts. That is who you should also ask the derailleur question. As to the dumping clean canteen in favor of Stanley, yes that is a decision made by HQ and in my 15 years I saw that happen pretty frequently. Other than Nalgene which is a perennial, bottles (and other high volume, high demand) products will flex with the times. That, my friend, is capitalism.

@watertankhikes

5 ай бұрын

@@AdventureOtaku I'm a bike mechanic myself, and my nearest REI is over 2 hours away from me, so I rarely deal with the in-store bike shops. The last time I was in an REI store, I asked the bike mechanic for some pro-grade brake cable housing, and they didn't have any. I really don't know how they can operate when they don't carry basic repair parts.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

I can't speak to a specific shop, but both of the REI stores I worked in the bike shops were really well run, and the staff knew what they were doing. I can't account for your experience.

Brett, I would love to see as a follow-on video; you covering sources, brands, and expedition type gear. It is so very different from everyday paddling gear. Your thoughts? Very good video as always.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Give me an example of Expedtion type gear.

@bobrein8093

5 ай бұрын

Mainly clothing but also Cooking etc and tents and other sleeping system components. I know you've done videos on each of these in the past but I'm thinking of one where the basis is a long duration trip either in remote areas with an emphasis on weather implications. Some brands that are carried in most box stores wouldn't hold up in rugged conditions.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

I gotcha. Now I understand. Expedition worthy gear…. Gear that will work. I like it

I did not wear North Face in the 1990s because it was just expensive without being any better other brands. In the last 10/15 years I have purchased some sample items which I believe were one of a kind or not release for production, at very little cost and they have been incredibly values.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

That is a great value. Super cool too.

These companies are all dealing with a customer base that shops amazon too. Competition from many fronts. And if REI or similar companies operate like small outdoor specialty stores nobody will be employed or able to earn a living. I know, been there done that. That said, companies like Garage Grown Gear nails the niche.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Even when I worked there they knew amazon was their biggest concern. I think they have to figure out some way to incorporate the smaller brands on a limited basis.

Don’t be surprised if some of these cottage businesses are eventually acquired by holding (parent) companies or private equity firms. I can’t blame people for wanting to monetize their investment by selling their business and retiring on a desert isle. Unfortunately, as we all know, the new owners often end up ruining the companies we as consumers have grown fond of. If anyone can’t live without a particular product and has the means it wouldn’t hurt to approach the owner about potentially investing in the business. You’d be surprised to learn how many small businesses do not have succession plans. Some company founders likely feel they have no choice, but to sell to the highest bidder at some point in time. My two cents since the algorithm found me.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Im glad the algorithm found you. You aren’t wrong, but I think this time around with the ease of DTC it may play out differently. These tiny companies may make enough that they don’t need a buy out….of course a retirement nest egg is another thing.

This is the problem with Large Corporations that swallow up smaller companies , is it often means that things take a nosedive in one way or another. Most of our main High Street retailers that deal with outdoor gear here in the UK are pretty much the same company just with different size shops and logos on the walls. Which is why I really like Companies over here like Whetman and Reeds, that small companies and they develop their products for our sport.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Totally agree.

Interesting topic. Lots of value add at the rei big box store. 1. Inventory and sizing, to me it is a better experience to actually try on, touch and feel vs order online return etc. 2. Service- local bike shop and rei can provide build and custom fitting. Direct to consumer bikes often go to a shop for final assembly or tuning. 3. Your use case is for the hard core user, while mass market is quite happy with value economy of scale influenced purchases. Direct to consumer will impact. I’d focused on key value add services that an rei customer appreciates. Good prices and services. Keep in mind, jansport sells more in one sku than the entire Lowe backpack line. A custom boat mfg is not a mass market retail offering. It is premium core…$$$. They might sell one per store vs 100 cheap boats!

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

You are absolutely correct. I wouldn't argue a single point. But it doesn't change that if I am seeking gear that is cutting edge, im not getting it at REI (currently) - And maybe I am an outlier! I mean...I am an outlier. I am sure.

@nrgplay26

5 ай бұрын

You are core!!!! Awesome job getting out there and putting yourself out there!

While REI itself isn’t relevant to me from the other side of the ocean substitute whatever other big box brand and it works just as well. We’ve got a local cottage industry for ultralight ten minutes up the road from me and I do try to support them when I can. Also Joey just finished putting out an eight video series going in-depth on the building process of their boats on the turning point channel and it is fantastic, I highly recommend it.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Ive seen it, and it was fantastic. The question is will Joey get bought by a company like Johnson Outdoors. I’ll have to ask him if he would accept an offer!

It was my generation that fueled the explosion of outdoor recreation back in the 60's, 70's and 80's. A lot of us were pretty broke, couldn't afford expensive gear, but still wanted to get out into the back country. A lot of the smaller companies catered to that segment of the population. Then came gentrification and the rich wannabe crowd. Posers and fashionistas became the driving force, not backpackers, climbers, skiers and paddlers. So the stores changed accordingly. The youngsters now spend their time on their phones and computers, not out under the sky in fresh air. Sad but true.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Well, you should hang out with the outdoor educators I hang out with. Most in their twenties. Living the life.

I’ve been a REI member since 1998. Most years I spend $200-$1000 shopping at REI replacing worn out gear and clothing. But it’s never been exclusive. I’ve always supported innovative cottage industries or my local independent outfitter as well. Or when I’m looking for a specific item I’ll shop online for a deeply discounted price. I’ll continue this pattern.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

And I think that is the way it should be. I still order staple stuff from REI but more and more am seeking out smaller companies who are innovating.

This is part of the natural progression of corporations. Unfortunately none of us are willing to dismantle the systems that make these things happen. If we did, we wouldn't have things like heated seats in our cars and nice personal watercraft.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

I think you are bridging to bigger questions, that as a lowly paddling instructor I would be out of my area of expertise to get into. And for the record I don’t have heated seat, or a personal water craft unless you consider a kayak. But thanks for watching and taking the time to comment.

TheOutdoorGearReview KZread channel raised similar concerns a few months back. I agree with many of the comments in response to Adventure Otaku. The big box retailers have products aimed at the beginner to mid-level outdoors people. Once one graduates beyond this point that person has to go to the cottage industry marketplace to find their gear/outfits/tools. I’m a hammock camping enthusiast. Other than cordage and some generic camping supplies I shop within the cottage industry for products/gear. I also shop what I consider niche-specific companies rather than the standard big box outlets. Social media like KZread and various e-commerce tools/entities are also allowing smaller cottage industry-like companies to outmaneuver their larger peers. The big box retailers were once guaranteed the initial outdoor investment dollar; but not necessarily the follow up dollar. Now the big box retailer might not get the initial investment dollar due to increased user education provided by timely KZread tutorials and videos!

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Totally agree.

The North Face clothing fit perfectly.. that’s why people buy it . Stores sell what sells .. Patagonia is garbage .. clothing that fits like a tent. Times change and products people buy are being dialed in to what works best. Idk about boats though .. at least REI lets you return the product that doesn’t work for you. I stopped buying from cottage companies because I can’t try them out or on before buying. Bedrock shoes really hurt my feet. So it’s best not to waste my time anymore and just buy from REI. God Bless you in finding the right products for you.

@AdventureOtaku

27 күн бұрын

I would say the north face fits YOU perfectly. Which is great for you. “Stores sell what sells” is accurate but an over simplification. the better question is why do people buy what they buy, and usually, its marketing.

REI shifted their focus years ago from hardcore alpine climber, backpacker, MTB >>>> to the dog walker, city dweller, wknd car camper. Money talks. Those niche interests are best served by niche companies. It’s painful for me to say this. I’m an Eagle Scout who memorized the REI catalogs as a teen. Remember bipolar fleece? I’m a busy 40-something dad and doc now, using REI for kiddo gear, gifts, wknd gear, misc bike parts. I still enjoy REI.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

The hardcore is still there, but it is harder to find….

I used to spend sooooo much money at REI, now I go in there about once a year and walk out disgusted by their pricing! They have gotten so damn expensive for basic products it’s crazy! I still buy good stuff and now I don’t pay ridiculous prices.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Give me an example? Because I have responded to comments like this a lot this week. Last night I spent some time comparing prices. I checked an MSR stove. A backpack and a kayak. REI was priced the same as other major stores. Amazon had all three for a little less (but that’s what amazon does) I also checked an independent outdoor store and they were more expensive than REI and other big stores. I am not saying your wrong, but I suspect it is only for very specific products.

You're right. I went to REI for the first time ever, to get a grayle. The other simple common things I wanted they not only didn't carry, the salespeople had mostly never even heard of. They immediately pulled out their phone I assume checking the REI website. I'm talking snoseal, a wire saw and wool shirts. I'm sure they knew what a wool shirt was but they sure didn't have any 😅

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Yeah... I know all those products... even the wool shirts! and I know REI doesn't carry them. They do have alternatives to all of them.... but if it isn't what you want.

@billvan5219

5 ай бұрын

@@AdventureOtaku nope, strictly spouting the party line. I try hard to buy from small companies (they're certainly more responsive) and buy local cuz it's important to me that they are there when I need them

@BlownMacTruck

5 ай бұрын

This is it right here. I want to support REI, but they've pivoted over the years to be less an outdoor outfitter and more weekend-warrior focused. I have no problems with that, but it's ended up crowding out the actual gear more enthusiasts want versus low end stuff or the REI-house brand equivalent. I end up going elsewhere.

@MB-nv1bj

5 ай бұрын

That list of gear is old school. Good for you!

@billvan5219

5 ай бұрын

@@MB-nv1bj that's me, old school and outside lol

I've got to imagine part of the problem is that younger generations have significantly less buying power and it's shrinking ever more.

@AdventureOtaku

2 ай бұрын

I’m sure that plays into it…. But I know more than 5 20 somethings with multiple bikes in $3k and up range. Where there is a will….

There is a similar trap that both cycling and nordic skiing have fallen into as well. The direct-to-consumer trend is well on its way in the cycling industry, especially at the higher end if you buy a Breadwinner or a Stinner, but hasn't really started for nordic skiing yet.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Yes. And I think the direct to consumer has been what was missing in the previous cycles of this happening. Along with the reach of the internet. It’s going to be interesting to see.

Great video. Shop independent stores whenever possible 👍

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

I try, as well.

Zenbivy is fantastic!

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Agreed. Review of the sleep system coming in a few months

Unfortunately, the group of consumers that has a loyalty to quality and not their wallet doesn't allow the small innovative companies to survive forever. There's always been space for both, the voids will continue to get refilled as the companies come and go through consolidation or other reasons.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

We will see....

I’d say this is the perspective of the top 1% in kayak camping. And has enough money to particular and afford upgrading equipment regularly. So naturally he has outgrown REI. But most cottage businesses that make money have a model of build it then get acquired. Majority of small businesses fail within 5 years. For beginners, brand simplifies choice. And a trusted retailer is a safe entry point. REI, Cabela’s, are good for 90+% of the market - and unfortunately disappoints for a purist.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

By saying 1% of kayak camping do you mean money? Or do you mean seeking experiences. Because Im not in the 1% of anything if you mean financially.

Small company makes great things and 10 -15 years in lazy big corp make offer to ownership of small company that is 2x real world valuation and small company gets absorbed and becomes all about the math and passion and innovation die. Wash repeat. Cottage has always been the past, present, and future but it’s also only temporary for most. Ownership needs to be committed, good with “enough”, and only care to scale to satisfy their “why” assuming they know it. The future of outdoor gear is to know the good stuff is temporary.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

I think this iteration of that situation might be different as we now have little tiny companies making tons of money because they can easily go direct to customer and ship worldwide... but time will tell.

Thanks for the up date. The problem in a Capitalist economy is the percent of growth built into the system. Every year I have to make 6% more next year and every year after. The concept of sustainable is not considered. It's all about growth. The problem is if you are concerned with making a great tool i.e. kayak, sleeping bag, backpack, is after all those who bought your superior product, they are set for the next 60 years. So the Cottage shop has to come up with add on's. After a while making a great piece of equipment does not put shoes the kids and they sell the name for big bucks and the quality goes down. Next year the gear is on Sale at a Walmart same design BUT not the quality. I've been a member of REI since 1968. They have put up a new store at a discount mall 20 miles from my house. I stop by about once a month to look around. Once in a while I find a Sale I can't pass by. Too much of the outdoor clothing sold at REI and hunting and fishing stores, is really for the look and the name and who cares if the clothing can't save their life, because they are never going to be out on the ocean in rollers in a Kayak or on the side of a mountain or caught in a Blizzard.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Yeah, the concept of never ending growth never made sense to me. BUT, I would be willing to bet ten years from now, none of the brands I highlighted will have knock offs at Walmart.

@annoy_ken

5 ай бұрын

So a communist economy would make better product... Over time... 😂

REI doesn’t market to the guns and ammo crowd or even the sports fishing demographic. REI has always been aimed at the sports gentry. All of the artisan boutique companies you mention sell to a very specific discerning group who allocate a good chunk of their personal experience budget for the better / exclusive products they desire. You’ve left out the vast majority of recreational minded Americans who buy Walmart/Costco recreational stuff due to accessibility and cost, no Patagonia or Arc’tyx for them. REI will survive, but the company needs to decide to either move further upmarket or appeal to the “unwashed” masses.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

I never said rei was dead. I explained where I thought the innovation was coming from. And that it wasn’t Rei.

The last time I was at the Clackamas Town Center REI, their paddling section was minimal. I have seen better paddling selections at West Marine, Cabela's, Bass Pro, and Dick's Sporting Goods. Fortunately we have 3 excellent paddling shops in PDX, so REI isn't on the list when I need paddling gear.

@leosmith9301

Ай бұрын

I want to add that these paddling shops are independently owned and carry a wide variety of watercraft and gear.

@AdventureOtaku

Ай бұрын

And that is the way it should be. It really distresses me when I worked for rei how poorly they did paddling.

Ive never been on your KZread channel. I used to swear by chacos. My first pair i got when i was a sophomore in highschool 1992. That pair is still serviceable. My wife bought me a new pair and the straps frayed in 1 year and the tread started to peel off in a year in a half. My nephew was doing his senior year trip kayaking and all kinds of outdoor stuff. He broke his neck being a stupid high school boy while wearing chacos. I called chacos and asked if they woukd give him a shout out and link his funding link to help his morale and with the funding for recovery. I talked to hq numerous times and they ignored me over and over. I will never buy a chaco again

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

I don’t blame you. Thanks for stopping by the channel.

You mentioned that the one boat building conglomerate just wants to sell boats, and isn't interested in innovating. At risk of sounding like a grumpy old man, how much room for innovation is there in, say, kayak manufacturing?

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Look at turning point boat works. He is using a method (infusion) that almost no one else is using. He is using materials that almost no one else is using. And he is selling expensive boats. I would say that there is demand for progress, granted from a small subset, but that sets up the next generation. Keep in mind thermoformed kayaks were new fangled and no one trusted them because they were different. Now, they are the choice for people who want a light, high performance boat but dont want to pay for carbon.

@TurningPointBoatworks

5 ай бұрын

So here is how we see it. A company builds the same kayak for 30+ years. Never updating it, never making improvements, it’s the same kayak with a different year on the id#. After a few years the popularity pays off and they sell a bunch. Now they are competing with the used market against their own kayaks. It’s not ideal. Along comes a company, that builds lighter and stronger kayaks for a little more money. Develops a strong relationship with thier customer base and starts taking market share. What does the original company do? Well they have to pivot or they will continue to lose market share. That’s what we have done. The narrative has changed and now the big manufacturers are having to compete with us. In the end, the paddlers win. They have more choices of cutting edge designs that are now lighter and built much better than just 5 years ago. We aren’t done either. There are materials we are working on that are more environmentally responsible, building techniques that produce less waste and are a massive improvement in efficiency. Without pushing the envelope, we would still be stuck with that 30 year old design that weighs 40% more.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

exactly, and when was the last time Wilderness systems - who make great boats - did something where you went..." Wow, what great out of the box thinking!"

I stopped spending money at REI when they decided to get political with the Vista Outdoors boycott. I’m all for protecting public lands and access, but that’s where their politics should begin and end.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Ive said this in a few comment responses. REI’s political stances mirror that of the majority of their customers and the vast majority of their employees. Just as you are free to not spend your money there because you disagree with them, They were (and are) being authentic to their beliefs. I was working partially on the floor of an REI in the Southeast at the time. Customers responses when we said we weren’t currently selling Camelbak was either an affirmative towards our actions, or didn’t care and just wanted to see another option.

@JW23551

5 ай бұрын

@@AdventureOtaku I totally understand that, but the problem they face (and you’ve by extension identified) is an economic one. There’s no way to sustain their size and number of locations without embracing the big manufacturers, which are likely publicly owned, and responsible to shareholders. There’s little profit at all, let alone enough to warrant R&D. Like you, I’ve started going directly to the manufacturers. In many cases I’ve received better customer service and paid about the same, without all the political BS. Whether they think they’re taking an appropriate stand or not, they can’t afford to keep giving up any revenue, and they wouldn’t be laying people off if they were seeing calm seas and favorable winds. No idea how I ended up here, but glad you’re engaging with the comments.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

I work really hard to respond to as many comments as I can, this week has been tough as I didn’t anticipate this video getting this kind of views/interaction. Clearly it hit a nerve with people. I don’t disagree with what you are saying I just want to add one other aspect. REI doesn’t have a Revenue problem, they have an operating expense problem. It’s a small difference, but it is a difference. It doesn’t change the fact that more revenue would help alleviate the problems but it is worth mentioning. And their financials are all public, FYI.

@JW23551

5 ай бұрын

@@AdventureOtaku fair points indeed.

Very interesting👍

@AdventureOtaku

4 күн бұрын

thanks! thanks for watching.

Lendel paddles have been around for 30 years. Just because REI does not carry them does not somehow make REI misguided. REI has been the best outdoor retail in the experience in the industry for over 44 years. I can say that because that is how long I have been a member … and btw, the Werner paddle I purchased at REI blows the doors off my garden spade Lendal paddles.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Never said REI was misguided. Ive been a member for 24 years and was an employee for 15. REI is going to have to adapt in some way though. The market is changing. Also, Lendal Paddles shut down, and the name was Bought (I think 6 years ago?) it is now Lendal NA (North America) they bought the name but the designs are all original. Ive paddled Werner for decades and they are great. The current Lendal’s are just as good, and in some ways better. I use both.

Just like the farm-to-table movement has reinvigorated the small farmer. The cottage gear industry is another testament to American ingenuity and perseverance. I ve never had a whole lot of love for REI, its really just a shoe store for me these day ( and not even that most recently) 99.9 % of everything they carry in produced outside of this country. How is that any different than Walmart? The demise of REI may be the best thing that could happen for the outdoor enthusiast. A gap that can easy be filled by online retailers like Garage Grown Gear (US) and Geartrade(CA) and of course your local specialty shop....Good riddance??

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

It is a gap that COULD be filled with the companies you mentioned but I think it is more likely it gets filled by Amazon. And that would be bad for the industry.

@davidfence6939

5 ай бұрын

So basically you're happy Amazon's outdoor gear sales will quadruple. You don't really think the average consumer is going to notice those smaller companies, right? I hope not or you're incredibly naive. Amazon will benefit more from REI taking hits and will take customers from the companies you mentioned. Free 2 day delivery, on time at your door, easy browsing, ability to carry and keep more inventory of various brands, etc. You're celebrating the downfall of the main Amazon deterrent.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

No, that’s not what I said at all. I think A) REI is far from death, in what ever form that might take. B) REI considers Amazon their biggest threat to commerce, I know that first hand. C) I think Amazon picking up that slack would be horrible for the industry. D) I am not celebrating anything. I think REI is a great company that is having some difficulty. I was literally just thinking in what ways could REI incorporate some of those cottage brands into some of their stores.

You need to scale the evolution of the retailer’s with the user’s. Retailers have the data as to what sells. As you have evolved with specialty needs, the masses have not. The markets you’re describing have always been there. What appeals to the masses drives market forces towards a single conglomerate in the end... There is a cycle that’s always been there, it’s evolving with technology and/or accessibility. You have evolved to a niche minority that keeps boutique companies alive...

@dlrmon1

5 ай бұрын

I kinda see it as a war of human nature...a balance of innovation, need and greed.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

I think the difference this time is the ease of direct to consumer.. and these little companies with very low overhead are making a LOT of money... time will tell.

Durston Gear

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Yeah, I almost mentioned Durston…. I had some very interesting finance info on Durston (surprisingly positive) but it was from a confidential source and I didn’t want to give away the source.

I would be curious to your thoughts on REI branded gear. I feel they have gone down hill tremendously and I often find either copy cat versions or maybe even the original vendor they copied for far less other places online. I used to shop REI since they stood behind their products even if they were a little more expensive. Over the last couple decades they seem to have dropped that level of customer service. I agree with most of your points on brands and gear. I try to be budget minded when shopping. Some things can be cheaper and some places you don't cut quality to save. I mostly shop the Garage Sale section exclusively..

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

I have been using - exclusively - REI brand shell jackets and REI tents since 2006. And I haven’t been easy on them. I will put their backpacking tents and shells against any company, and they aren’t any more expensive than other brands. Granted I haven’t worked for them for two years. I suppose there is a chance there was a massive drop in quality since I left. But I haven’t seen it first hand.

I have a boat on order from TP after testing the Petrel Play with his dealer Capital City Kayak. Great service from Joey and Randi. I emailed Lendal about their paddles but never got a reply so I bought a Werner, their loss. Same when I got a custom road bike recently. I e-mailed 3 of my top choices and only 2 answered. If a company does not respond to a customer seeking info they are off my list. The one who gives the best replies gets my money.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Joey is a great guy, I am sorry you didn’t hear back from Lendal, I don’t know when you reached out, but they are in process of moving their factory (and have been since I got my paddles so it has been a. Few months!)

@timothymcteague8437

5 ай бұрын

@@AdventureOtaku the most basic thing for them to have done was setup an out of office type reply to emails. Sometimes small companies act like they don’t want the business.

@wisenber

5 ай бұрын

@@timothymcteague8437 Sometimes, small companies know more about their products than setting an out of office reply. Some of my best cottage experiences rarely answered their email, but would chat on the phone for half an hour.

...and a tiny litte correction: Pieps is Austrian, not French, now owned by BD.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

I’ll be honest…this one was a guess….

I haven’t been able to find what I need from REI in years. And they pretty much don’t carry anything for my outdoor activity of choice.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Unfortunately, it’s only getting worse.

At the end of the day the company makes money or goes out of business. If there is no market to sustain a cottage company then being ahead of early adopters with a larger market behind then the small company won't survive.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

The cottage brands I highlighted are all making, a lot of money. Some I chose not to mention are making more than a lot of money.

You're not wrong. I've come to the very firm conclusion that "outdoor retailers" have become clothing stores masquerading as a "outdoor retailers". Most stores have at least 65% of their floor space dedicated to clothing, if not more. It's all about selling the newest style. Frankly, no company has really changed the outdoor clothing space. Add in the forever chemical scare that is looming on the horizon, it will only get worse as the clothing companies race for the solution. Even worse still, is the Stanley cup craze... like we all need more insulated cups. I only shop at REI, because they happen to carry freeze-dried backpacking meals and i don't like buying them online. Truth of the matter, once you buy your hard gear; tent, backpack, kayak, paddle... etcetera. you are not buying anything big for possibly years. So they need to rope you in with "must have FOMO fashion"...

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

Well, clothing has a much higher profit margin which is why you see more of it on the selling floor. Other than that you aren’t wrong. Except maybe on the once you buy your hard goods your done, clearly you have never met a cyclist!

@TsugaCanadensis1979

5 ай бұрын

@@AdventureOtaku this is not a flex. I do mountain bike. I own a Specialized Stumpjumper Evo Elite Alloy. So I know all about the bike community. I also backpack and fly fish. I have expensive hobbies. My point about the clothing percentage is not about profit and making money. All companies exist to ONLY make money. Period. My point it more about the social disease of constant consumerism. As a society, we are bombarded with reminders to always be onto the next trend... That's all social media is meant to do. It's a form of command and control. You need this to be cool like this trendy influencer we are highlighting so you can get your social cues to be cool like them... Hard pass. Wanton consumerism is destroying civil society.

@AdventureOtaku

5 ай бұрын

@TsugaCanadensis1979 I meant the cycling thing as a joke because in general cyclists always need one more bike. As to the other stuff I don’t disagree

@TsugaCanadensis1979

5 ай бұрын

@@AdventureOtaku fair enough. Tone and jest generally do not translate well.