Correction: The Nissan Leaf uses pouch style batteries, not prismatic.

@Charles-in5xg

4 жыл бұрын

I suggest pinning this at the top. Besides, great content. Thanks for sharing.

@rkaid7

4 жыл бұрын

@M Bacon Gen 1 they had an excuse but Gen2 with no liquid cooling, they did not. Everyone had pulled down a Model S pack by then. "ChargeGate" lol

@Afrocanuk

3 жыл бұрын

There's nothing wrong with the pouch-style batteries! They just have not received the detailed refinement as did soup-can batteries.

@Buzz-Of-Craze

3 жыл бұрын

NMC always be a villain, lol

the battery management system can't target each cell as you say at 4:20, it can only target each parallel group. Tesla does use a small wire as a fuse to connect each cell though, so if a cell shorts out it will blow that fuse and disconnect itself. The bms will not know directly that this had happened, it will just see less over all capacity from that group.

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

Good point ... I should have made that distinction.

@e-bikerbulgaria

4 жыл бұрын

Basic BMS, display cell group voltage. If you loss a cell group also lose voltage and current. I’m sure this basic detail Tesla, won’t let us down.

@tomrobertson3236

4 жыл бұрын

Check out Jack Richard channel Yes , they can track each cell . He broke the code for BMS

@junkerzn7312

3 жыл бұрын

Individual cell voltages obviously can't be tracked, BUT the overall health of the parallel pack can still be tracked by observing the voltage drop under load for the parallel group. This is something a BMS can already do via the balance leads, but isn't really something you would see in a run-of-the-mill BMS. The little microcontrollers used in a BMS is plenty powerful enough to make the calculations though. The BMS could then theoretically compensate (at least somewhat) for the calculated losses from deficient cells by using the balancing mechanism. Also not hard to do, though ultimately the number of messed up cells may become too much for the BMS's limited balancing current to be able to compensate for. -Matt

Thanks for the update Matt. Answers with Joe recently did an update on cobalt and covered the various battery compositions

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

D'oh! Haven't watched that one yet. I'll need to check it out.

Great videos. Your presentation style is right on. Subscribed.

Good job, Matt. I really appreciate your clear and concise breakdowns with good graphics and relevant footage. Thanks!

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

👍 Thanks so much!

Great video as always Matt, thank you. Are you making your animations and graphics (like the bit where you had the bunch of cylindrical cells with some charging green and some flashing red and the part on how a battery works)? If so, what program do you use? TIA!

I appreciate the breakdown my guy!

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

👍

Great video as always Matt! I can’t wait for Battery day. Hoping to make some videos coving there event like everyone else.

Hey Matt .... 5:20 . Nissan Leaf doesn't use prismatic cells. It is build out of pouch cells. Early 24kw used 4 pouch cells in a module and 48 modules in the car. Later 40kw's used 8 cells in a module and 24 modules in the car. Great videos as always. Keep up the good work!!

Great in depth of Battery architecture Matt. Great Video. Lot of work in that buddy, great job.

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

👍 Thanks so much!

Thanks for ALWAYS providing interesting info!

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

👍

Always SOLID information. That’s why I keep coming back. Thank you!

Wow your channel has grown. Come from high quality videos and audio. Congratulations

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

👍 Thanks so much!

Thanks Matt, even I understood your breakdown of battery tech

Great video. I always wondered about the volume loss from cylinder, but makes sense with Tesla's cooling. I'm still a little annoyed with Nissan making their batteries degrade so quickly as that stigma is still around.

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

No kidding ... Nissan really screwed up with the cooling issue.

Very well researched, Matt! Thank you very much.

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching, Mitchell.

@mitchellbarnow1709

4 жыл бұрын

Undecided with Matt Ferrell I wouldn’t miss it, Matt

Greetings from Germany, You are really great. Love your Vids! Please do more Tesla related ones

Matt, I really like how you break down the subjects to manageable chunks. I think I'm tech savvy and understand some of this material, but when I look at your breakdown I realize I'd be lost without you doing the back end work for me.

Insightful. Thanks.

There are only 3 kinds of people in the world.. Those who make things happen, those who watch others make things happen, and those who have no idea what's happening. Thanks for keeping us out of the third group Matt. Subscribed.

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

Ha! Love that ... and thanks for subscribing!

I think we need a discussion on battery chemistry V charge time as that seems to be a critical factor to drive EV ownership

@MultiVfc

4 жыл бұрын

Don't think so, because most of the time you recharge at home at night and not supercharge. I think the most important is energy density, cost for manufacturing and life cicle. The EVs need to be in price equivalency to ice in the purchase and its 🔋 need to last long

@1943vermork

4 жыл бұрын

Neil Winstanley Every battery chemistry have a max C rating which affect the max output and input. Which could affects the acceleration, the recharge time and the regen.

As usual, your videos are information dense. Information volume to time ratio is what I go for.

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

I worry I go too dense at times.

3:47 - That loop is older S. Model 3 has a log manifold style

Very informative!

Nice work. Thanks.

Thanks Matt, for breaking down the differences between the types of batteries and their pros and cons.

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

Sure thing. I kind of geek out on this stuff. Glad to see others are finding it interesting too.

@markplott4820

4 жыл бұрын

Battery Design is only Secondary to battery CELL formulation. so the Cell formulation plays a Bigger Role than what container its in. and there are Dozens of Cell formulations , some work some NOT so good. some are Highly Volitile, some are Stable but have low output, Others are low Density and High Output, others are Sutible for High Density but LOW output, Still others are ONLY Suitable for Energy Storage or Home battery, Still others are ONLY good as Electric car battery. Battery Chemestry is the TIP of the Iceberg.

Bro, you are such a nice guy... thumbs up for your show.

Extremely good Video!! Made some at this topic myself (in German). Thx for making this wide overview of cell types and explaining lfp batterys 👌🏻 Will the company update in NY be the battery day? 🤔 Not quite sure

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks! I don't think the NY update is the battery day event. From what I understand it's an employee only meeting, but they're then opening the factory up to press and tours.

@StromGarage

4 жыл бұрын

@@UndecidedMF thx, that's what I thought 😁

It's always interesting to me to watch somebody as passionate as you are about the future of this technology. It gives me hope for our future as a species, especially considering the current state of affairs.

I really enjoyed this video.

Great video to educate on the battery market.

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

High quality content!

Great presentation style

Great overview of the latest Tesla battery strategies.

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

Prismatic architecture + Tesla Secret Sauce should hopefully result in a competitive advantage.

Tesla news in general keeps me interested. Love the innovation that the company brings. Please give me StarLink already.

I'm getting excited for battery day !!!

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

Me too.

The BMW i3 uses prismatic cells (Samsung) with very clever active thermal management. If a cell fails, it can be identified by the BMS and easily swapped out if needed.

Great video as usual.

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

Appreciate that.

Nicely done.

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

👍

Ps....well presented analyses. Enjoyable and informative.

i like it how the charged particles in the battery anode and cathode circuit were going to the same plate lol. a circuit is circular.

Hello from calgary alberta. I hope the battery changes everything

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

Hello from Boston!

@kubismatikkubismatik9554

4 жыл бұрын

Calgary, the capital of pickup trucks.. I hope you have your Cybertruck preorder in place ;-))!

Thanks Matt.

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

👍

In the RC car racing world we've been using pouch packs for years. As you noted, cycle life is pretty poor. We tend to push them hard too with high discharge rates and running them from full to very low voltage. We see a significant capacity drop off after 50 cycles in this usage case.

Will battery day be before or after Q1 earnings? That decision could impact whether or not share prices decline in the event of an earnings miss.

Please correct 2:15 . Energy density is the energy per volume. Specific energy is energy per mass.

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

I was correct about specific energy, but I said it‘s sometimes referred to as “energy density” because that’s how you hear it talked about in the press most often. I should have been more clear about that.

Have you talked about graphite and graphene, and if you think graphite has a role in battery technology. Samsung last year suggested graphite used on anodes

John B. Goodenough and the glass battery maybe?

The single largest use of cobalt is for desulphurisation during refining crude oil to fuels like gas and diesel. This cobalt cannot be recycled as it remains in the fuel and goes out the tail pipe.

Could LFP find its way into storage systems? In static application power density is less critical then in EVs so the cost saving for grid scale applications could be significant while also freeing up 2170 cells for EV production.

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

LFP is a great option for energy storage systems (it's a growing area for it for sure).

@jbbuzzable

4 жыл бұрын

I was thinking the same thing.

@markallen6433

4 жыл бұрын

It's already very popular for small scale off grid solutions. It has a complication with temp, where charge or discharge below freezing is very bad for the cells. In a stationary installation, insulating it against the cold is easy though. You can even run a low draw heater to keep the cells happy for a very low percentage of charge per hour, so even with intermittent charging, it can be dealt with quite well. Harder on a vehicle really.

😂 I couldn’t keep paying attention after hearing John B. Goodenough

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

What? He's not good enough for you?

@andrewsteel5271

4 жыл бұрын

Undecided with Matt Ferrell - it’s an amazing name, I’m almost jealous! Your channel is awesome by the way, thanks for the reply.

Need two things. The ability to use a flexfuel ice charger portable generator and a home use solar/wind combined system to charge the car as you pull into the driveway with no manual connecting needed. Even if just a dumb; Two leaf spring contacts and a temp battery charge holding cheapest pack available for storing the wind/solar for charging the car that is sunk into the driveway.

I have Li-Fe-PO4 batteries in our home battery (Fronius) which is a much better choice than what they use in the Tesla Power Wall - especially for thermal stability & fire risk. Perhaps they should start with their Power Walls?

Another awesome video Matt. Great insights into battery technologies and your usually balanced approach to the technological hype of the moment. Super pumped to hear what Tesla has in store at their battery day. As a Model 3 owner, knowing they designed the car with a replaceable battery pack means that a few years down the road we may be able to purchase a battery upgrade instead of buying a whole new car - this could be a version of automotive 'upcycling' that few seem to be talking about.

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

I’m beyond excited for battery investor day. And upcycling is something few people are talking about because we haven’t seen it really happen yet. The potential there is huge ... I just hope companies like Tesla offer it.

Please lobby for the following upgrades to Model 3: 1) Have Display show both the Energy percentage & Distance mileage simultaneously. 2) Ability to turn on front camera at slow driving speeds & when parking. 3) "Bird's Eye View"

Im currently using the prismatic LFP's in my off grid life, they were the only choice after my research because they are a proven tech over a decade, are completely safe and while don't have the energy density of Tesla's chemistry they aren't that far behind and this doesn't matter for house power. They charge and discharge quickly and have a long life and best of all they make sense financially if you shop around and put it all together yourself.

The detractors who talk about batteries using cobalt never seem to mention cobalt being used in the manufacturing of petrol. Weird, huh?

@alaneasthope2357

4 жыл бұрын

Sssshhhh. Big Oil will hear you. :)

@h2rider953

4 жыл бұрын

www.cobaltinstitute.org/desulphurisation.html

@1943vermork

4 жыл бұрын

macgibbon And don’t talk about the catalytic converter using palladium or platinum. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter#Environmental_impact

@LoughansDragstra

4 жыл бұрын

Electric cars claim to be GREEN and ENVIRONMENTAL, combustion engine cars don’t.

@richstoddart236

4 жыл бұрын

The Cobalt is used a a catalyst, it is not costumed by the reaction. (If a microscope amount slowly as the converter degrades) this is significantly different.

There's been a couple of interesting new battery tech reports recently: a rumor of a *new* graphene battery (something different from the existing graphene batteries that have been around for a short while now), and a news article I read were silicon was used in place of graphene. Both talked about much faster charge times and better battery life. It'll be interesting to see if Battery Day reveals more about one of these, or if they're going to announce something entirely new.

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

I'd put good money that it's not silicon ... and probably not graphene either. Happy to be wrong, but given where those are in the research cycle ... it's too early.

@UltramaticOrange

4 жыл бұрын

@@UndecidedMF The new graphene cells are supposed to be in production already (I have some on order, so I get to find out first-hand if they're legit or not) but given availability, I don't think Tesla is using them. I think we all know what we're hoping for. I mean, there's pretty much only one thing that could "blow" Elon's mind, but we all know that's too good to be true. Fingers crossed, though.

One issue you didn't touch on is supply. Seems batteries are the limiting factor for many of the EV companies right now, so creating a 2nd source (or 3rd) for a large segment of their China-based sales is imperative and if they can lower the cost at the same time, that's a big bonus for markets like China and help them hit a price target on the low-end units (std range or maybe even less than that on say a shorter-range car) . Nice job on the technical aspects. You covered all the major design considerations in a way most people can understand.

@treborheminway1196

4 жыл бұрын

@@rogerstarkey5390 I agree the maxwell technology is very exciting, but nothing has been rolled out yet. Elon has stated they are battery limited many times now. I know I am waiting for the battery tech day in April before counting on what Maxwell will provide, but I hope your right and it helps on multiple fronts.

Considering the high volume products coming out after Model 3, they'd need all the help they could get. I bet there would be a noticeable difference on CATL batteries; I reckon, these vehicles will be exclusive to Asia Pacific countries.

4:12 - Have you got a source on that? Can the BMS target at the cell level? model 3 is a 350-400v system, so 96s46p configuration.

@FaceTubeU

4 жыл бұрын

Not per cell, but per parallel pack. That needs a correction. If I wire 46 cells in parallel, they behave like one cell at the same voltage but with increased capacity, amp hours (Ah). It isn't cost effective to balance cells in parallel, it's easier just to make sure they all closely have the same capacity so when they're drained, the drain is equal across all cells to get the most capacity. The rule of thumb is the capacity is only as much as the lowest capacity cell in parallel. So, no each individual cell can't be balanced.

@rkaid7

4 жыл бұрын

@@FaceTubeU this what I presumed but in that model 3 battery breakdown by Jack Rikard, he mentions that each module has a power and comms trace running to each cell. At the time he was trying to decipher the comms protocol, mentioning ISO and SPC or IC2 or something... interesting shrugs

Is it not negative cathode and positive anode? Positive anode attracts negative electrons. That's how it works ins XR tubes. Sorry, am I being stupid?

But what about byd blade battery;

I'd be interested to see if LFP would be better for Powerwall applications with their extended cycle life. You generally don't need the specific energy requirements in those apps.

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

Yep! I think LFP makes a lot of sense for that use.

Valuable info. Thanks! A question... Tesla's current technology allows for 1500 charge cycles. Is that variable depending on depth of discharge? 1500 cycles would go fast (4.1 yrs) for someone who plugs in every evening.

@davehickey2293

4 жыл бұрын

@M Bacon Thanks! totally handles my question!

I think between the purchases of both Maxwell and Hibar maybe Tesla will go into a partnership with CATL to manufacture a new battery chemistry that pushes the Wh/Kg much higher, with maybe faster charge rates too (?).

Isn't it LiFePO4 ? Or is that just the specific chemistry?

@ph1lthyvision

4 жыл бұрын

Yes, it is lifepo4. LFP is just another acronym.

I could see Tesla going with both types of chemistry including the lipo chemistry. The lipo could make a lot of sense if it really does cut manufacturing cost and given that they already have the extra volume available in the battery pack area of the standard range if they really need the extra power they put in more dents battery pack that would be more expensive per kilowatt hour. It's just business and economics is what's driving it. I'm glad to see that they are keeping up the scientific investment in new technologies and in new chemistries because that's what's going to drive the world in the long run. But less dense batteries are very useful especially going into fixed storage requirements in places where they really don't need the power density to make an effective vehicle for a particular market. Great video and thanks for producing them I'll learn a lot and it gives me a lot to think about.

Volkswagen is moving soon to prismatic batteries too.

There is one aspect of this new battery partnership of Tesla with CATL that has not been talked about as far as I know. I believe CATL was building cells for many of Tesla's Chinese EV competitors. Many of these models are low range, and when they lost their subsidies last year, their sales numbers dropped dramatically. I imagine that this has left CATL with a lot of extra capacity looking for a new customer.

It's worth pointing out that cell-to-pack engineering is possible for cylindrical cells, too. Elon even remarked that in the Model 3 pack, the modules have no point. The modules in a pack are not interchangeable; each has its own part number and has to go into the correct slot in the pack. So efficiency gains for LFP prismatic cells using cell-to-pack engineering designs will not yield any advantage over cylindrical cells, since packs using cylindrical cells can benefit from the same design approach, and the performance gap will be maintained.

I saw this mentioned in another video and I think it is a common misconception about Nissan Leaf batteries. Nissan Leaf batteries are not prismatic cells. They are four individual pouch cells stacked inside a metal module. As a Leaf owner, I thought I should clear that up. qnovo.com/inside-the-battery-of-a-nissan-leaf/

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

Gah ... I should have caught that. Pouch and prismatic are very similar and tend to get lumped together.

What I think is weird is that Tesla has pulled the PowerWall as a thing you can buy from their page. I'm wondering if this announcement will have more to do with home charging and storage than the car battery.

Excellent analysis!

Not an expert, by any means, but I'm interested in the latest development with graphene being able to 'amp up' performance, as well as now being capable of mass production at a reasonable cost.

Lets expand our minds and imaginations, LFP batteries for storage and as a 'combo' type battery (NCA & LFP) for the semi and Cybertruck and MCA's for cars.

Tesla may need to use CATL cells only until can get their own batteries made at giga3. And wonder if this happens, early adopters may be able to swap packs to newer ones.

Perhaps, reporting on "LFP", Reuters mixed up the chemical elements iron (Fe) and fluorine (F). I.e. they reported the cathode material lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) - instead of the electrolyte additive lithium difluorophosphate (LiPO2F2), which Jeff Dahn has talked about.

people do not understand how much design goes into the existing battery pack design. It would have to be a very big reason to change formats from the cylindrical type

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

It could be worth it though for cost savings. Also, there could be a political angle as part of all of this. China really rolled out the red carpet for Tesla with how fast they built out the factory, the speed at which they got approvals to start selling, etc. Tesla using one of China’s leading battery manufacturers and some of their cutting edge tech is Tesla playing nice with a very supportive partner.

Genius design by Tesla

we need 100kw batter for model Y

@M1kke78

4 жыл бұрын

We need cheaper 75kWh packs 😁

I believe there is not a real difference between Pouch and Prismatic in many cases. Prismatic is just a container for the Pouches. I think in a least some cases it is put together like that... Love your videos! I am very excited to hear what Tesla has been up to along these lines...

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

Pouch and Prismatic are essentially the same. But the naked pouch needs some extra care. Thanks for watching!

I find it hard to believe Tesla would go to LFP but easier to believe they will get CATL to produce prismatic cells (and maybe packs) based on their own (new) chemistry.

When Elon says it will blow your mind... it will blow your mind. My mind is still blown from the cybertruck reveal. I'm pretty sure we are in for yet another disruption in terms of batteries.

LFP batteries are getting very, very popular with the DIY crowd. Including myself. Integration vendors are starting to catch up but are still behind the times. For example, there are very few UPSs available that use LFP chemistries (and the ones that do are extremely over-priced and tend to pack small batteries). Most 'solar power stations' (of which there are dozens and dozens of models) still use lithium-ion / NCA or NMC. Only a few offer LFP and they over-charge for the privilege. There are some larger pre-built arrays becoming available that use prismatics. There are at least two major Chinese vendors selling 280Ah cells on the open market for relatively cheap. Solar MPPT and PWM charge controllers still haven't really caught up... standard charge controller settings for LFP batteries when charging at less than 0.2C (which is very typical for solar installations) can't really be programmed easily for LFP because you can trickle-charge a LFP battery at just above the potential barrier, e.g. 3.40V-3.45V, and still eventually hit 95-98% capacity if you keep it going. At higher charging C rates, such as 0.5C, you can charge the battery far more quickly and reach a more definitive state-of-charge by looking at the voltage. For those you can charge the cell all the way up to 3.60V or so (remember, the electrolyte doesn't start breaking down until 4.2V and most BMS's high-voltage cut-off will be at around 3.90V). But if you allow 3.55V+ when trickle-charging at 0.2C or lower (really 0.3C or lower), you wind up with a 99% full battery which is NOT what you typically want. Plus the automatic top-balancing that BMS's do tends to kick in at 3.50V per cell and not before. This presents a problem for anyone trying to trickle-charge a large LiFePO4 bank, because most people don't want to charge their batteries past 90%. So the charge controller needs to keep track of the Ah pushed into the battery. Most charge based on voltage and current parameters instead of counting Ah delivered (they would also need to know the load current, so an external shunt would also be required). Plus, when your target (or even effective) charging voltage is low (too close to the potential barrier), the cells tend to get out of balance more quickly. It's a problem. -Matt

Goodenough was one of three I thought.

The DRC needs to work with China to get better refining & purification equipment for cobalt. The purified cobalt can then be used to modernize infrastructure & pay back debts.

Tesla is gonna do whatever it takes to have enough batteries

@LoughansDragstra

4 жыл бұрын

R!ck Hodgson Yep and they’ll probably get lots of taxpayer subsidies to do so.

@fonkenful

4 жыл бұрын

Luke Dragstra So the $20B or so per year to oil / coal doesn’t count? www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs

Battery thermal management system is bigger reason why I do not think Tesla would move to prismatic battery, only if they will move on all fronts, but is hard to believe because they experience in current technology, faster they would move to pouch because they may use frame of car around as structure to protect cells, but it would required not flammable batteries, thermal management would not be hard, but required redesign, but Tesla would do it, if they see it as better in final form (no sunk cost fallacy)

It'll be interesting to see how CATL lithium iron phosphate prismatic cells could be applied to stationary energy storage. Due to the less severe demands on the cells, the tighter BMS controls, the lower temperature fluctuations and predictable charge/discharge cycles, when compared to automotive demands, it would seem that the longer lived LiFePO4 cells could be made much larger, thus more cheaply, and still not suffer any thermal constraints. That aspect excites me much more than changes being made to automotive batteries, since we're already at the 'good enough' phase, and it'll naturally get better with time. Stationary energy storage is a much bigger deal. Or at least in situations that are not so weight sensitive, like trains and boats. Crazy to think I paid $1500 for 500 Wh of LiFePO4 cells for my ebike back in the bad old days.

Terrific video Matt. However, I see that you still have not taken my suggestion about changing the name of your channel to "Decidedly Undecided". Keep up the great work........👍👍👍👍😂😂😂😂

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

Ha! It's still a possibility. 😉

I am having high expectations from tesla this battery investment day

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

Me too. Hope I'm not putting my expectations to high though.

@lecisko

4 жыл бұрын

But don't forget about the powertrain as well!

@patrickday3393

4 жыл бұрын

micky bang-bang potential talk about plaid power train

@sbollmeyer

4 жыл бұрын

All these discussions about the battery and their technology. Tesla's power electronics and powertrain has made huge improvements to Tesla's EVs effiency.

@MultiVfc

4 жыл бұрын

@@sbollmeyer and software too

I can't believe Tesla would take a giant step backwards in energy density unless the cost savings were enormous, even in China. Agree that it will be something else, I suspect the same basic recipe globally, produced internally and in cooperation with more suppliers, like CATL.

The cheaper batteries will probably be for power wall, power pack and perhaps semi. Very unlikely to be used in cars. Adding weight and bulk is very counterproductive in terms of efficiency. No way they go in cars.

Matt...I think LFP will make sense in markets like China and Europe where people tend not to need longer ranges because most rarely drive long distances. I think dry electrode and other advancements for Battery day will be particularly important for U.S. market long range, Semi, Roadster, etc. Do you think this makes sense?

@UndecidedMF

4 жыл бұрын

I think you’re both right (lol). Primary benefit is cost savings because less, space, equipment, etc. Secondary benefit is that it aids in making more energy dense formulations. I don’t think it’s an either or situation. They could use DBE for the LFP batteries in China too.

Will Nickel be a big part of future batteries?

The capacity of LFP batteries on the open market has gone up, and the price has come down phenomenally in just the last few months. Never mind electric cars... fixed installations are going to be the biggest beneficiary. Its already tearing up the industry with most of the vendors who have become used to charging a relatively large amount of money for LFP (LiFePO4) now suddenly finding themselves looking for new suppliers in order to push the price down before they lose their markets. For example, a 100Ah 12V (13.2V) BattleBorn battery is still around $850-$950. But you can now buy 4 x Prismatics @ 280Ah and get almost three times the total capacity (in Wh) for less than $500. 4 x for 13.2V nominal, 280Ah vs 100Ah. 2.8x the capacity for a little more than half the cost, not including the BMS. One 16 x series build with 280Ah prismatics (requiring one 16s BMS) is around 14kWh of storage for around $2000 DIY. $2500 including the BMS and insundries. The only down-side to LiFePO4 is that the energy density is a bit lower than NCA. This is why "never mind EVs.. though I'm sure they'll be fine in EVs as long as people don't mind the slightly lower range. LiFePO4 has lower internal resistances, more robust responses to full discharge and full charge cycling, and the cell chemistry can tolerate up to 4.2V before the electrolyte starts breaking down (where a normal full charge at 0.5C is 3.60V-3.65V per cell, and the chemistry settles at 3.30-3.40V). Cycle life is 2000 cycles if you abuse them, 5000 cycles 20-80-ish, and 7000+ cycles with light depths of discharge. Which translates to 15-20 years nominal life. The failure mode is simply a loss of capacity (above numbers are from 100% capacity to 80% capacity), so they can still be used after that if you are willing to accept the lower capacity, possibly up to 30 years but at that point cell construction starts to matter (so cheap Chinese batteries... not necessarily CATL, but other vendors, might not be able to last that long). Also LFP batteries are much safer. It is very hard to get one to go into thermal runaway due to the high cell voltage tolerance (etc). In otherwords, LFP cells can be abused a lot more than other lithium chemistries, last a lot longer, and are safer. This is my absolute favorite lithium chemistry. -Matt

The question should be, which battery technology is best suited for Mars conditions?

Great vid, thanks Matt! No doubt, batteries are the #1 priority for EV's, to get them cheaper, more capacity, faster charging and longer life, all which Tesla is working tirelessly to conquer. Personally, I think the prismatic design will win out as it's more space-saving and requires less material. Thousands of tiny batteries requires far more material and more sophisticated BMS than prismatic. Either way, it'll be exciting to see what Tesla comes out with.