I believe Royal Enfield actually made triumph take competition seriously

@seauryakumar

Жыл бұрын

You don't understand the Royal Enfield following in India. No one has ever taken their share and they just can't now. The following is more comparable to the Harleys in the US only on a much bigger scale. These Triumphs bikes maybe good but they'll be more expensive to buy and maintain. These bikes will have their own sales and success but they ain't competing with RE. Most of the classic buyer don't give a shit about other bikes, there is a reason why they sell 50k every month

@aj_wuwei

Жыл бұрын

Not triumph ,bajaj

@whiteshadow7892

Жыл бұрын

@@Leo-vj4iv RE is trash in terms of Reliability in india absolutely unreliable, they are improving but still, dont believe me just join a group. they literally take all gaskets and clutch plates and all along with mechanic on long rides, new bikes are also facing engine issues, these are just bulky machines which give a feel thats it, the fans face these things and they dont complain thats it they are just adjusting with the bike, and maintenance is also high as they have to visit service centres more frequently for small small issues

@stuartfillingham

Жыл бұрын

@@whiteshadow7892 LOL Try out a Triumph then! It will be an education for you!

@sirgalah561

Жыл бұрын

@@whiteshadow7892 Do you even own an RE? My classic 500 has been a dream to own without a single problem.. Its easy to ride, cheap on fuel and really quite comfortable in comparison to my other bikes.. You sound like a Triumph lover that doesnt like competition..

I started riding Classic 500 12 years ago (still using it) and have used it mostly for touring in plains and in the Himalayan range. I started when I was 42 and now at 54 I am looking at newer bikes with interest. I have always been attracted to the scramblers (my classic with some mods looks like one) and I have been waiting for the new Scram based on the Himalayan 450. The Triumph 400 appeals to me (except for the golden shocks) depending on the pricing and the parts availability (always an issue with new bike and important to me as a tourer), I'll wait for the test ride and the touch, feel and experience it myself (as you said) before choosing it over the tried and tested RE. BTW, I enjoy your languid and informed commentary. Thank you.

@randell07

Жыл бұрын

Well damn sir, I think almost exactly as you and I’m in my mid twenties. I’m hoping the new scram 450 gets alloy wheels though

They will fly out of the showrooms. As small as they are, Triumph have set the scene for this modern classic genre and have nailed it. RE have radically improved their product and closed the gap but that gap remains in terms of quality, performance (in every aspect) and design. RE wins on price and there product has improved in every other aspect. These new kids look the part and are an excellent entry level for those wanting a Triumph. RE with thrive in their market as will Triumph albeit in a less mass market environment. Hope everyone that buys one enjoys every moment! I have 2 triples and a twin, might just get one of these singles to complete the stable of Triumph’s.

@slimturnpike

Жыл бұрын

Does a Bajaj collab have the same cache you reference? I think not. Which says nothing about the quality, just addressing the brand value appeal you suggest.

The Speed 400 has been launched in India at ₹2.23 lakhs, which is the same price of RE Classic 350. At that price, it is incredible value for money!

@chopsandarchie7015

11 ай бұрын

sounds like it mate! cheers

@sandydennylives1392

10 ай бұрын

But we're going to be shafted on price.If it's only 2K or so cheaper than their entry 900's it simply won't sell.@@chopsandarchie7015

I went to Triumph yesterday evening for one of their Bike Evenings, they had both new 400's out on show - but no touching ! I have to say they both look really good, really would be a great option for a 'brand conscious' rider looking for a 'smaller' cc bike. I would be surprised if they price them over 6k, possibly between 5500 and 5800 ? That would place them in position to offer the Triumph brand to a wider market in both performance and cost, I will certainly be looking for a test ride in 2024 when its available here in the UK

@beamerstrumpet

7 ай бұрын

@jonparr1148 I went to Cleveland Triumph for the show out. We were allowed to sit on and poke around. Must have been your dealer. It’s why I put down a grand on the order.

Only problem for me with the RE Hunter is that 20hp at 5k plus fees in the states. It’s just sooo slow.

As a hunter owner I completely agree, where does this fit.... another great honest review Stuart 👌🌻🌟

I have my eye on these Triumph scrambler 400x. They are designed very good and have good amount of specs one need with triumph's loads of accessories to provide. If priced even a little higher than the others with the same capacity range, I will no doubt go for it. Just the fit & finish and vibrations are under check by Bajaj. Rest I am huge fan of maintaining my motorcycles so I would proudly own one and care them to the mint conditions. Waiting for the price release on 5th of July and 6th July is the first ride impressions here in India.

@varun2250

Жыл бұрын

According to one popular Indian KZreadr, there's media embargo in place till July 14th. We will know how good or bad they are only after that. Still, the little details will always proliferate even when there's media embargo.

@sasidharvivek5817

Жыл бұрын

​@@varun2250wait what? Who said that. Already the price was released yesterday. 2.33 lakhs INR ex showroom price.

@varun2250

Жыл бұрын

@@sasidharvivek5817 It's true. I'm talking about ride and engine performance reviews.

@somyajitsasmal937

Жыл бұрын

i booked the speed 400, but in my state the on road price is 311000 . Is it ok. ex show room and on road price difference is 80000

@sasidharvivek5817

Жыл бұрын

@@somyajitsasmal937 which is your state bro?

A lot of motorcycle decisions are made on a love at first sight basis. The new 400 Triumphs look terrific and I’m sure lots are looking at them and thinking « I want one ». Long stroke Bikes with low down torque are a delight to ride eg Harleys and Royal Enfields. I’m wondering how the new BSA 650s are selling? Price will be the big deciding factor, not the ride and not the engine characteristics. Thanks Stu for the thoughtful introduction to the new Triumphs.

@PhilipBallGarry

Жыл бұрын

I'm wondering about the BSA sales too. My local dealer sells them alongside RE and has admitted sales are a little slow. He also agrees with me that many potential buyers may be holding off for a couple of years to see how they do mechanically and cosmetically?

@blrmotorcyclesinc.

Жыл бұрын

Very well said exactly what I was trying to say👍🍻How are they going to create or match the character of a long stroke low end torque retro classic motorcycle using a short stroke engine.

@razor1uk610

Жыл бұрын

@@blrmotorcyclesinc. a proportion of 'long stroke torque' can be used with a longer conrod and taller engine, but still on a relatively square or over-square cylinder bore and short stroke crank.. but, requires careful balancing factor, likely a intermediate-balancer shaft too..

The Bajaj Dominar 400 is the bike the Triumph 400’s most closely resemble. I think it’s fair to say we in the western world could be minimizing the Triumph legacy and looking to see what Bajaj is sending out into the “West”. Bajaj, “world’s third largest manufacturer of motorcycles”. Next most appropriate bike to compare is the KTM/Husqvarna 390’s. The Triumph 400’s engine runs lower compression than the 390’s, develops max hp at 1,000 rpm less than those engines and delivers 27.7 ft.lbs at 6,500 vs 27 ft.lbs at 7,000. Also has a longer stroke than KTM. There is a BIG tech secret hiding in those Bajaj heads. A new fangled finger follower cam system, not a new innovation but one that modern metallurgy and advanced cnc has made reliable. This makes the valve assemblies lighter and permits more rapid acceleration/deceleration of valve movement which translates into more ability to tune hp and torque numbers. It also permits a shorter engine which you can see. Look at those heads, they’re so low they remind me of the old flathead valve-in-block designs😳

I am from India and I have already booked this bike, it will be delivered by month end. This bike has shaken the entire premium motorcycle market in India due it's excellent value for money, top of the line fit and finish and that too coming from Triumph brand name. They aren't charging a penny extra for the brand name but have undercut every other Japanese and Indian manufacturer in pricing by huge margin. Its slightly more expensive than Classic 350 but of course doesn't have anything retro about it except for the looks. Classic 350 should still be the choice for Western rider who have ridden big liquid cooled bikes because Enfield offers a very different and authentic retro experience while the Triump just has retro aesthetics.

@stuartfillingham

Жыл бұрын

Well stickers only cost pennies!

@sandydennylives1392

10 ай бұрын

Except £1000's in rip off blighty. They will price this the fuck out of town, and gift wrap millions to RE, esp if their upcoming 450 has some balls.@@stuartfillingham

Great Bikes... Looking forward to driving them. At least they got the power, which I am missing at the RE 350

US price for me was $5595 introductory price. ​​⁠​⁠As Far as reliability of Triumphs, I own a 05 Bonnie America and it’s been dead reliable! Still on same clutch, the worst thing I had to do was have a pickup coil changed. An that was after 16 years. I have a 2012 Storm. NO ISSUES. I have money down on the 400 Scrambler. You have 3 Bonnie’s. Something don’t add up

Here in India, the Speed 400 is likely going to be priced about the same as the Interceptor 650. The 390 Duke, also made by Bajaj, starts at roughly the same price as the Interceptor and has very similar specifications to the Speed 400. There is no way it will compete with the Hunter 350 because that is the cheapest bike that RE offers and is just over half the price of the Interceptor and 390 Duke. My Interceptor 650 and my 390 Duke have about the same fuel economy - 16-20 km per litre. That's because of my heavy right hand. It is higher for most other owners. I expect the Speed to have about the same. Indian buyers will probably look to this as a premium alternative to the bikes I mentioned because Triumph is viewed as a premium brand here. However, the bundle of wires around the headstock is not the only sign of budget manufacturing. I think it was in Motobob's walkaround video that I saw a very strong orange peel effect on the fuel tank of the Speed. It was more pronounced than it should have been on my smartphone screen. Of course, an actual close inspection as well as ride will reveal the true level of quality.

@vince6219

Жыл бұрын

I think I would rather have the interceptor.. 😊

@twowheeledparadox

Жыл бұрын

@@vince6219 Me too but I may be a bit biased since I already have one. Still, if I were to do it again, I would still pick the Interceptor over this.

@gauravsood753

Жыл бұрын

2.23Lacs starting price.

@twowheeledparadox

Жыл бұрын

@@gauravsood753 You mean introductory price. Even at 2.33 it was a big surprise.

@twowheeledparadox

Жыл бұрын

@@droptuned83 That's right. They actually ended up launching it at just above the price of the top spec (chrome) Classic 350 which is phenomenal! In the UK, the price difference may be slightly higher.

Just like to add, I have motorcycles for over 30 years and I have found Mono shocks to be the most effective and comfortable suspension, at least that is my experience

@BurgerTime7441

9 ай бұрын

Mono shock is a superior design. Dual shocks are redundant by design (there's only one wheel).. more complex and heavy, and will always be some amount mismatched and sometimes dangerously so

Am an owner of Triumph T100 and I love the bike and it's engineering which is indeed premium and impeccable. But it's just ends there. Subject of warranty claim and dealing with distributor is will give you nightmares and Triumph just don't bother at all. Warranty claim takes months and the spare part section seems to be at lost all the time. Bike sitting in your garage for months and imagine paying your monthly installment but you can't use the bike!!! Dealership looking at their sales numbers but not after their customers. Some companies just don't learn from their past mistakes. But I still love my bonneville and will do for many many more years. It's just a beautiful and the perfect bike for me.

Thanks Stuart. I think there may be a new market sector opening up, namely riders of our generation who are looking to downsize. It was for this reason that my interest was piqued yesterday when I first became aware of these bikes whilst reading MCN. Incidentally based on no hard evidence at all in a conversation with a friend my opinion on the likely price was £6,500 to £7,000! If they are this price though I'll probably go down the Royal Enfield route when the time comes.

@AntonisKorakakis

Жыл бұрын

The prices are not going to be that high. They will be no more expensive than the respective BMWs.

@varun2250

Жыл бұрын

​​@@AntonisKorakakisnd RE is going to launch Himalayan 450(scrambler) with a performance oriented liquid cooled engine the last quarter of 2023. Hope Triumph knows what they will be doing with the pricing.

@AntonisKorakakis

Жыл бұрын

@@varun2250 let's hope so.

@donalddicorcia2433

11 ай бұрын

That liquid cooled 450 engine in the Hunter chassis would go toe to toe with the Triumph.

@donalddicorcia2433

11 ай бұрын

I would consider this bike at or near $5500 USD. Not much more than that.

Here in Asia anything over 250cc is a luxury bike and the under 500cc retro market has limited choice. The most common complaint about the Royal Enfields and the Honda Highness CB350 / GB350 are that they are heavy and underpowered. Also seat hight is an issue for a lot of riders under 5'9. I know people who have either bought a Rebel 500 or fitted smaller shocks just to get comfortable. I think this bike will at the right price appeal to those looking for a sub 500cc bike that is lightweight, retro looking and with good performance.The speed 400 version has a low seat height. I love my Honda Highness CB350 but I do wish it had just a little more power and less weight (why is chrome so heavy?). This triumph reminds me of the 1980's Honda CB250RS a single 4 stroke which was about the only bike that was as much fun as the 2 strokes that dominated the road at the time. For me dual rear shocks, decent mudguards and spoked wheels would make it a lot more attractive.

Interesting thoughts Stuart The Enfield market Imho has nothing to fear from these Triumph small capacity machines. A. To me they are not what I call retro. B. They are mode rich with LC engines that makes DIY maintenance a pain. Which is very important in the massive asian market C. I very much doubt if their price point will bring them even close to the little simple 350s. Or maybe even the 650s Both of which seem to be selling like hot cakes in all their variants Thanks for another great post Lee

The first thing that caught my attention from RE was the price of their motorcycles and then everyone who had one loved it. I have never owned a Triumph motorcycle and probably never will. I like what i get from RE so i think i will stick with it.

Triumph milked the wealthy senior rider market by raising their prices higher and higher, until RE came along and offered a cheaper alternative.

@NAParr

Жыл бұрын

The model is still working for Triumph judging by the amount of them on UK roads. RE are the cheaper option for a reason.

FANTASTIC review! I'm a previous Daytona 675 rider, and wanted to downsize to a Trident 660 for commuting. Tridents are going for about $10,000 USD at the moment. I then figured I can upgrade to a Street Triple 765 for the price difference. NOW, knowing this bike is coming out, and seeing how good it looks, it may just be the more reasonable choice to go with. Should be about half the price, and I'll mostly be using it as a commuter and weekend toy. Should be safer, and priced very well

I've had a chat with the regional manager of my local Triumph dealer and what he told me it would cost is extremely competitive in the space. It's going to sell really well.

I'll certainly be riding this weekend, after a 6 week wait finally picking up my new RE hunter 😃. I do like the look of these baby triumph's and looking forward to seeing them, could be a future purchase 🤔 but there again as you state probably be too pricey.

Wiring at the headstock looks a mess uncle Stu!!

@stuartfillingham

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I decided not to mention it in the vid as I didn't want to come over as too negative. As we know Triumph have had a lot of safety issues and mandatory recalls with their wiring. It would seem they have not learned their lesson yet!

@stephenbrown1143

Жыл бұрын

A very well reasoned piece as usual Stuart. The price point in the UK will put it in direct competition with the Interceptor and Continental GT, in which case I don't think that Royal Enfield will be losing any sleep. The worst bike I have ever owned from a build quality stand point was a Bonneville 900 Scrambler. The dealer experience between our local Triumph and Royal Enfield agents is a world apart with this satisfied customer coming down squarely on the side of the brilliant Cooperb Motorcycles. Best wishes and thanks.

@simonmitchell34

Жыл бұрын

@@jamesschneider3828 No I wouldn't like it shrouded in plastic, I'd like it done properly!

@stuartfillingham

Жыл бұрын

@@jamesschneider3828 No we would prefer them not burst into flames beneath the fuel tank or switch of the engine and lights when you go around a right hand bend!

@stuglenn1112

Жыл бұрын

I noticed that also. The Harley Street models, now discontinued, suffered the same thing. The wiring around the steering neck looked like it was done by 5 year olds. On an otherwise cleaning looking motorcycle it sticks out like a sore thumb. They should get that sorted.

An interesting video. Honda have the GB350 for the Indian and also the Japanese home market, retailing at a price much lower than the anticipated cost of this new Triumph. For some reason beyond my comprehension, Honda haven't thought it worth bringing the GB350 to the UK or European markets but if that changes, I fear that this new Triumph would struggle to achieve a meaningful level of sales.

@varun2250

Жыл бұрын

I believe it's CB350 and CB350 RS. Other than the fact that they are single cylinder and oil cooled units, there are little flaws with that bike. If Triumph gets bad reviews with steep pricing, I'm going for the CB350 or wait till Himalayan 450 also gets launched.

@Xanavi23

Жыл бұрын

@@varun2250 I understand that Japan is the first country outside of India to get the CB350 H'Ness. Well, they're calling it the GB350, and it does come with some subtle styling changes, however, underneath its skin, there's no denying that it is the CB350. Honda Japan has launched the retro-styled roadster in two variants: the GB350 and GB350 S.

@mashok1672

Жыл бұрын

@@varun2250 It’s an air cooled engine ( no radiator for oil )

@varun2250

Жыл бұрын

@@Xanavi23 Thank you, didn't know all these details.

@stevewalker1677

Жыл бұрын

@@mashok1672 doesnt need one it is air cooled. the whole cylinder head is an oil cooler.

Hello Sir, thank you for your candid review. I live in Bangalore , India. I have commented before. To give you a history of my bike ownership. I have owned 4 bikes. 1. Royal Enfield 350 STD, the old cast iron engine, with the gear and back break on the other side. 2. Benelli tnt250 3. Suzuki gs150r 4. Suzuki Gixxer 250 . The first 2 were massive failures, due too many reasons, which I do not want to go into. I continue to own the other 2 and both are great in my honest opinion. As far as my analysis goes, the manufacturing quality of Bajaj may be better than Royal Enfield , but they are no Suzuki or even India's TVS. Also the design of the Triumph 400 bikes is not up to the mark imho. You rightly said , the Indian bike customer is a picky one. I probably am very much picky too. You have mentioned in one of your previous videos Suzuki has the best gear boxes, followed by that of RE. I love Suzuki gear boxes, I haven't owned the new RE bikes, so I cannot comment. I honestly feel the upcoming Himalayan 450 will be a good one, going by how the bike looks in spy shots and by the specs of the bike. Thank you again for your candid analysis and reviews. It really helps.

Stu, I know it's subjective, but I love the styling. I went to my local RE/Triumph shop a couple of months back to have a look at the Hunter 350, as I was thinking about making one into a scrambler. I own a couple of Triumphs today, TS660 and T120, and the sales guy told me to hold off on the Hunter because Triumph would be rolling out a sub-500cc bike. I'm glad I held off, and, as you said, we'll have to see how it rides. I'm also very interested in how it's priced here in the States.

Hi Stu, really impressed with your level of deduction here, I think that comes from your past career. The fact you managed to glean so many insights from the images and specs we do have shows you really know your stuff. Thanks for the video. As far as my opinion on them they are going to be popular based on the buzz that is already building, many of the release videos have huge views on day 1. It feels like the early BSA Goldstar days. I'm looking for a new small capacity bike that is a little bit special so to speak and I put a poll on my channel of the new Kawasaki ZX4R (first new in-line 4 400cc in decades) vs this and the Triumph won 10:1! Also agree it doesn't really match up against the J series bikes very well at all, perhaps more against the likes of the Fantic caberello 500 and other premium scramblers... I have to admit as RE fan a bike for the channel I'm tempted...

I just started riding a month ago and got myself a used Benelli Leoncino 500. I've never ridden a Triumph but love how they look. When I saw these recently I was taken aback, then buyers remorse started to creep in. But the more I see of these new Triumphs the more I realize, they don't look too much different from my Leoncino. For now I'm happy with it. Would love to get a Triumph one day. But it would be from their larger capacity lines.

I think the only slight low point of the Hunter is it’s low power and I believe that Triumph has simply bought out a similar bike with more power to rectify that. I honestly think it’s as simple as that.

For this bike to be competitive, I think it has to be priced at £4,500/£4,750, however, I have heard prices muted of £5,500/£6,000 😳😬 In which case, forget it! That’s ridiculous money for a small bike. The RE HNTR 350 has hit the nail on the head in this class for me. The BMW 310 variants and the KTM 390 models are in the same segment as the new Triumph’s but they are ultra-modern looking bikes, whereas these are retro-styled. Triumph will sell boat loads of these bikes, if they’re priced right. If not, they’ll disappear without a trace.

I would NOT want to be a cyclist if that car in front of you (after your overtake at 2.30,) with the bits sticking out of the passenger window, went past me! Anyway, thanks for your interesting opinions on those new Triumphs. Here's mine FWIW - Those bikes would only interest me if their selling price was the same, or less then, the price of the RE Hunter. I don't think that's going to happen. Also, I would have to have confidence that I wouldn't have to endure the supercilious 'car showroom' attitude of the Triumph dealership sales staff that I have had too much experience of already. Triumph seem to have fallen into the trap of believing its own publicity, which may not end well.

I must admit I was really taken with these bikes when I saw the release earlier in the week, especially the green scrambler. However, technically advanced, high revving short stroke singles miss the point entirely, at least for me. I love the hunter for many reasons but it's the long stroke motor that won me over when I test rode it. The HP numbers are irrelevant with this motor it just feels, and sounds, so good.

@davidcann8788

Жыл бұрын

I agree. Long stroke. Better sound. Hunter sounds much better than the Speed 400. Who wants to cruise at 8,000 RPM? I recently bought a Meteor but was briefly tempted by the Triumph.

@flatlandriver2471

Жыл бұрын

Coming from an industrial engine background I would have agreed with you both about the long stroke engine/higher torque relationship. In recent years, since engines are being built with dohc/advanced finger follower/cam technology and higher compression, excellent torque can be found across the whole rpm spectrum. And with higher top end rpm than long stroke motors. Search the history of finger followers and I’m sure you’ll be as surprised as I was

@artieedwards4768

11 ай бұрын

Were you going with 22 hp

I don't have any direct experiences with Triumph and at looking from this footage, these are not bad looking bikes. As a competitor towards the RE Hunter as a small capacity bike in the Asian market, it makes sense that they collaborated with Bajaj. I do doubt that they would have the traction in the "classic" market. I did manage to find some sorts of "review" of this bike on KZread, but I found it rather strange that they didn't start up the bikes (due to not having the keys???) . If it is a high revving bike, it would have already lost the battle for those looking for a classic experience of having torque at low rpm. Combined with the monoshock, upside down fork and the exhaust it would be hard to fit this into a "classic" category. Maintenance intervals do look good on paper, but how do they look for the wallet? Both my Interceptor 650 and Classic 500 I can easily provide service intervals myself at minimum cost - how does that work with these Triumphs? (thinking of setting valve clearance - do I need a collection of shims, cups an specialised tools?) I know that here in the west, the "classic motorcyclist" that sleeps with a workshop manual under their pillow and insists on doing all the maintenance themselves (experiences have led me to trust issues 😉) is becoming rare - but in the likes of India it is far more common and expected to be able to deal with maintenance and fixing issues with only looking at third parties to assist when all the tools/knowledge has been exhausted. All in all, the price of these bikes - even if they are "premium build" - could potential pit them in the price range of the Interceptor 650 - Which in looks and performance would be much more reminiscent of a classic Bonnie. So which ever demographic these new Triumphs would appeal to - I would doubt it would eat a big chunk out of RE's market. But with the popularity increasing in the West for smaller displacement engines - there might be a market for these bikes - but the judges are, as you said it Stu, still out on this. Nevertheless some competition would be good to keep everyone (including RE) on their toes.

Deposit in for a Scram. I have a few fast bikes in the garage, but this should be fun as a back lane burner.

At those rumoured prices. These better grow another cylinder 😂

Having recently ridden a Scram last weekend which ran out of go at around 50 mph and made a terrible noise once up there, I look forward to getting on one of these, they look fabulous in my opinion and if they have at least 80% of the bigger Triumph quality of finish then they will be a good buy. Price will be the decider, but based on info so far, I’d go for the Triumph 400x over the Scram all day long. £5.5k - £6k would be about right. I’ll be heading for a 400x scrambler as soon as they are in the show room.

@IanClarke-bi3se

Жыл бұрын

Me to I think these bikes could be the biggest thing Triumph have done in the last 15 years

@stephennewell6628

Жыл бұрын

@@IanClarke-bi3se i agree, it will allow younger riders to get in to decent retro bikes at less money, and make a great second bike to bimble around green lanes on. I know I am in the minority but I also drool over RE until I ride them. Triumph have a great riding experience so far, so fingers crossed for these.

@stuartfillingham

Жыл бұрын

Yours must have been broken. completely different experience from the Scrams ive ridden!

@stephennewell6628

Жыл бұрын

@@stuartfillingham it was brand new supplied test bike from RE at the ABR festival, so maybe it had been ragged, but I loved the feel and ride up to speed where it got a bit noisy and slappy, also difficult to stand on the pegs as the engine casing sticks in to your left calf. Don’t misunderstand me, it is a nice bike and I love to look and feel of it but I do hope that Triumph can make their new bikes accessible price wise for younger riders like my son, as in my humble opinion they are up a class on RE. Oh, by the way I do not own a Triumph and am not a fan boy just my opinion.

@DevineDumbass

Жыл бұрын

Waiting on the royal enfield 450

@stuartfillingham I’m confused. You seem to hate Triumph because of your previous experience with the brand. However, you still own 3 Triumphs and seem to be enjoying riding one in this video. Despite your bitterness, the majority of your own bikes are Triumphs. You could sell them and fill your garage with other brands but you haven’t. I guess it shows Triumphs are actually pretty good! They should use you in their marketing material. ‘Even people who hate us, love our bikes!’

@stuartfillingham

Жыл бұрын

Your opinion is based on watching this video in isolation.

@formulavon

Жыл бұрын

@@stuartfillingham and reading your responses to comments on this video

@alphatango5668

Жыл бұрын

@@formulavon Like he said your getting your information from one isolated video. Obviously not a long term viewer.

@formulavon

Жыл бұрын

@@alphatango5668 you're correct I'm not a long term viewer. This video just popped up on my feed so I listened to the guy for 20 minutes and read some of his responses to the comments. My comment is based solely on that information. Is that not allowed?

Thanks Stu, in my opinion this very nice looking bike is three years too late. For those with 5k plus that are looking for a relaxed ride have too much choice already, particularly from Honda with their 300 and 500 ranges. If like me, with very limited funds and rarely if ever wanting to exceed 60mph, then it’s the Royal Enfield range every, (and I mean every) time.. Thanks for your totally pragmatic review.

@sirgalah561

Жыл бұрын

All my friends always upgrade to the bigger thing, whatever squeezes out more horsepower.. Me? I'm the other way round.. I want something slower, is comfy to ride, and is good on fuel. After watching a bunch of Uncle Stu's videos I settled on the RE C500.. And Im totally happy with the thing. I wish I found out about these bikes earlier in my biking life - I would have bought one years ago... Still, two years later and just under 15,000km I'm loving this bike.. I have modified a few things here n there - personalised it if you like.. Added LED bulbs to the dash and the Tiger eyes, changed the muffler and header pipe and replaced the air filter with a DNA, oh and replaced the OEM relays.. It runs really nice now.. Couldn't be happier..

@neilbenton1152

Жыл бұрын

Problem with the enfield although fantastic value for money its very slow & very ugly , atleast you have agree the triumph 400 looks good and would be a good ride hopefully , I've had several triumphs & the bikes have been excellent my east Midlands triumph dealer has always looked after me ,

@philtucker1224

Жыл бұрын

@@neilbenton1152 fair comment (except the RE range looks superb in my opinion) as you sound like a dedicated Triumph fan and they need as many as they can get with this rather expensive Indian made range I think. Very good power at just under 10,000 rpm evidently, but this style of bike is really intended for a more relaxed 6,000rpm type ride, and (as I haven’t test ridden one yet) I’m not sure what genuine power and torque is really available in the mid ranges. Kind regards.

@edxr250r

Жыл бұрын

@@philtucker1224 - is 8000rpm 'just under 10000rpm' 🤔

@philtucker1224

Жыл бұрын

@@edxr250r Oh hi Eddie, that’s great to know. As a retired Automotive research and development engineer for some reason I thought 8,000 rpm was just over 10,000rpm so it’s good to learn something new every day. My article mentions 6,000rpm as a typical relaxed mid range cruising engine speed. (In my very humble opinion of course).

Hi Stuart, maybe this bike's competition fits where the husqvarna svartpilen is (and the ktm 390 duke.....just guessing)

If the Triumph 400 is £6500 it will be a dead duck . The excellent Kwacker Z400 is only £5700

I always thought a traditional or retro looking KTM 390 would be a fine thing and this is just that (I believe Bajaj also build the 390 motor for KTM). However, times have moved on for me and I fell in love with the looks and allure of the Hunter 350 and took the plunge (And I still prefer its looks over the new Triumph). What I didn't realise until I owned it, is that the Hunter is a long stroke engine and - a blast from the past - I am now hooked on it's old school torque characteristics. In this, the new Triumph simply wouldn't satisfy and I gladly accept RE's compromise of lower HP for their 350s (I did take the time to consider a hot cam for the Hunter for an extra 5 horse, but going forward I don't think I really feel the need).

@blrmotorcyclesinc.

Жыл бұрын

Right choice if you dont want your motorcycle to keep stalling at every turn or a high gear at low speeds....

A good insight Stu. Thank you. I think Triumph will have a winner here though it won't tempt me to change my RE 350 Classic Reborn. Power isn't everything and when tge power is developed so high up the rev range it doesn't suggest a relaxing ride. Buzzy singles are horrible. Give me a thumping torquey low revver any day.

@edxr250r

Жыл бұрын

Would be interesting to plot the power and torque curves of both the RE350 and Triumph 400 together🤔. A look at the figures show that the RE350 makes peak torque of 24.7Nm at 2800rpm. From the data supplied by Triumph (not an independent dyno obviously) it appears the Triumph is making ~31Nm at the same rpm which it holds to roughly 5000rpm before climbing to 37.5Nm. So at 2800rpm the Triumph is making ~20% more torque...... I guess you could just ride the Triumph in the same rpm range as the RE350 and enjoy the extra torque or occasionally rev the motor a little harder and enjoy the extra (~100%) 20bhp🤔.

Looking at the Triumph published power and torque curves, the Triumph is approximately 50% higher than the the Royal Enfield Scram 411 throughout the rev range! Can't wait for you to get your hands on one for an honest review. On one of your trips out, could you go to Flamborough Head or Spurn or Spurn Head, both a place to visit in area where you live...

as a new rider, these two bikes look amazing!

The price got announced in India and it's unbelievable. It's around 223,000 INR which is about 2,100 pounds. I would be surprised if they dnt sell a million of these within a year. Bajaj has the capacity to produce that many vehicles and meet the demands.

You have nailed it again stuart i totally concur with your comments regarding these bikes.

As I get older, I am really looking for a lightweight, simple, good looking motorcycle letting me getting back to my early motorcycle experience with DTs, XTs etc. However, since Iam much bulkier by now, I do need some more HP😢. The 1200 Scrambler would be a good choice, but she is heavy and since I already own a Tiger 955 which I still love to ride, I am provided for on the heavy side… so yes, there is probably a target group in Western Europe: nostalgic people wanting to stylishly downsize from the ever bigger motorcycles…

That's just blew the wind out of my sails 😂 I'm 49 and new to biking (just 4 weeks after my CBT) and frustratingly on a slow 125 probably until spring next year to gain road experience and confidence. So when this Triumph started showing up in my KZread feed this week I excitedly thought "there's my next bike ". Then I watched this video 😢 Let's hope it's not above £5k but if it's a high revving engine at 40hp then I'll reconsider. A few KZread bikers have said how much fun getting back on a 125 is. I find riding around with an engine revving it's nuts off just to maintain 50mph extremely tiresome, I don't see the appeal personally, so if this Triumph is of that ilk, then I'll pass and keep my eyes on RE or a modern classic from another manufacturer. As I live on the edge of the Peak District I want a bike that can comfortably take on the hills without resorting to excessive downshifting whilst being able to keep up with traffic rather than create it. And boy do you get a different perspective of car drivers from being on a bike . I've an L plate on for a reason , so back off 😮 I don't have any KZread channel notifications turned on, I just know to look out for your Wed/Fri video regardless.

@robertcampbell8311

Жыл бұрын

I see on the Triumph website the scrambler 400x has 6 speed gearbox , so possibly may not be too overstretched at slightly higher speeds.

@ak99-to1gz

Жыл бұрын

REs are used to climb Himalayas in India. I think you should be fine with their 350s or 650s.

@leegreveson

Жыл бұрын

@@ak99-to1gz would be a 650 I think, tailgating drives me nuts at the moment and I have no power to get away from them 🤣

@leegreveson

Жыл бұрын

@@robertcampbell8311 hopefully we'll find out once the reviews start coming in

@ak99-to1gz

Жыл бұрын

@@leegreveson have fun ! Interceptor is a good bike.

i'm really in love with the scrambler with higher front mud guard , its perfect for me. It have performance while not being too lower in ground clearance with some off road capability while not looking like an adventure bike. Its best of all worlds

Good to have more choices in this segment. Pricing will be the key to its success in India. Hope it's price and service costs are competitive unlike BMW 310 cc bikes manufacturered in collaboration with TVS ,in India.

@user-vy5uy9fo8p

Жыл бұрын

Ex-showroom - 2,33,000 Road tax - 46,553 Delivery charges -17,000 Registration & RTO charges - 3,937 RSA - 6,016 Insurance - 23,592 Intro kit - 8,500 On road - 3,38,598

Thanks Stuart many interesting points, i was exited after watching the video from Triumph you bought me back to earth with a bump! always value your comments!!

As you say, this review is purely your opinion, but if I really didn't like a company then I certainly wouldn't keep three of their bikes in my garage. But, that's only my opinion Stuart.

@stuartfillingham

Жыл бұрын

The T120 has a glass gearbox (Common LC bonnie trait) and I wouldn't sell it to my worst enemy. You probably couldn't afford to keep them as ornaments as I do, hence the difference of opinion!

@joshnnik

Жыл бұрын

@@stuartfillingham Fair comment Stuart, I can only afford to have one bike at a time. I did p/x my 2018 T120 at 2 years old for my present bike (not a Triumph) and was very satisfied with the deal that I had.

Bajaj made KTM successful in India. They have the potential to do so with Triumph as well.

@stuartfillingham

Жыл бұрын

@@Leo-vj4iv odd to hear KTM described as a premium option!

Hi Stuart! Another lovely video and some legit questions.. Let me make an effort to answer a few from the Indian market's perspective.. Modern retros presently available in the Indian market are the CB 350 & CB 350 RS from Honda, RE Hunter 350, Yamaha XSR (albeit in a lower CC), TVS Ronin to name a few. I believe BMW is also toying with the idea of a small capacity retro (Maybe a R9T of sorts). Also, I feel that Triumph are playing a great game by introducing the motorbikes as these are most premium feeling machines in their class here. Finally, people who buy the 400 CC class of motorbikes seldom use them as city run-abouts / floggers, for that application there are a myriad of even smaller cubic capacity mobikes available. As far as handling heat is concerned, Bajaj has done a fabulous job with the highly strung KTM 390 engines, I own one since 2017 and its never misbehaved even in stop and go traffic. Triumph looks like it has a huge expectation from the Indian market and hence, has released the SPEED 400 at close to GBP 2200 ex showroom. Even we were shocked after listening to that price. It is an introductory offer for the first 10,000 units though. Wishing Triumph and Bajaj the best. Good motorbikes being made available at a reasonable price is a WIN for every market. Cheers.

Nice video! This is only speculation (with a mite of common sense), but as soon as I heard the news, I thought, "Oh, Triumph did take note of Royal Enfield (several years before now)." I hope this move doesn't negatively impact Enfield. As of today, while I've always liked Enfield, over close to a decade I've come to prefer them over Triumph on all fronts. This isn't so much a response to Enfield's consistent rise, but primarily to Triumph's decisions and behavior over this time - what I view as a decline (or reveal/my awareness of what was already there) (which I wish wasn't so).

Interesting bikes with great looks and reasonable engine. However, the scrambler would be more attractive with high exhaust and spoked wheels. I bet they are going to price them from 6000 to 7000 euros.

5k I think would be a reasonable price point, but I'm thinking Triumph is going to hit us with a price closer to 6k. Hope I'm wrong, because if these are reasonably priced I'd love to pick myself up one of the Scrambler 400s as the second bike in my stable. Edit: just heard your point about the rumors being at 6.5 k or so for us westerners. That's a little steep for what it is if you ask me. I'd rather buy a Royal Enfield Interceptor for damn near the same price and customize that into a scrambler

@Uriel-Septim.

Жыл бұрын

6.5k what do a trident 660 cost in the UK ? have to be cheaper then that.

@ZT-wz8yy

Жыл бұрын

​@@Uriel-Septim.8k the trident now in the UK

@stuartfillingham

Жыл бұрын

@@Uriel-Septim. Your having laugh!

@Uriel-Septim.

Жыл бұрын

@@stuartfillingham Nahh I am from Denmark and do to our taxes the prices on bikes (and cars) are steep a Trident cost around 11.5K £ here. I would hope the 400 speed to be around 7K £ in Denmark and I would consider it for my second bike, but if it is 6.5K in the UK it would be more like 8.5-9 K here.

@chidizzy6633

Жыл бұрын

If the triumph 400 is 5k I'm in over 5.5k I'm out simple as that for me .

What disappoints me is that Triumph has chosen to go with a short stroke high revving engine rather than either a square or long stroke engine (like the RE Meteor) which develops good torque at low RPM and makes great MPG. The Meteor 350 is more attractive on that basis, but it lacks the slipper clutch and electronic throttle.

@jonr1122

Жыл бұрын

On paper the Triumph seems to have low end torque similar to the RE 650s in a package lighter than the 350s. Very tempting, although you are no doubt correct on fuel efficiency.

2019 I had an “off” on my 865 t100 decided to keep riding as the injuries were minor and brought a 1987 Honda gb400 for $3200 nzd, since then it seems I was ahead of current trend. The gb is light quick around town is still on the same chain and tyres and very economical, I think about another triumph from time to time the only reason being the draw of the badge and some thoughts that I might use it more. For now though I will keep my cheap genuine “classic” bike and languish in a feeling of superiority in having beaten the trend for the first time in my life!

The price has been announced and it's a blockbuster....Triumph India has already confirmed the receipt of 10,000 bookings at an inaugural discount price of Rs.2,23,000/-...That's abt 2250GBP, ex showroom....with taxes, it works out to abt Rs. 2,75,000/- on road...😊 In terms of performance, it's as good as the KTM390, though the mindset of most commentators is to compare it with the long bore thumpers of RE stable... So well, that's it then,...wait for these 2 twins, ie Speed 400 and the 400X, to steal the show and rake up profits for Triumph like never before....Welcome to India and well-done, Bajaj👍👍

@MartinCraig-zt2sv

Жыл бұрын

How does that compare to RE pricing?

I like the look of these 400's taking styling elements from the current Bonneville and Scrambler "bigger brothers". Agree with you that the engines would have been preferable with torque much lower down the rev range, and worry that the prices in the UK will be high, reflecting Triumph's "premium brand" appeal instead of competitive value pricing. p.s. Nice to see you out on your Bobber.

@collyernicholasjohn

Жыл бұрын

Why buy the Triumph when Enfield’s P platform 650’s are proven, starter friendly, and cost about the same?

@jonr1122

Жыл бұрын

Don't be put off by the high max torque figure. The curve shows very good low torque aswell. Considerably more than the Hunter, and very close to the Interceptor 650 whilst being much, much lighter. This is all on paper at the moment.

It is a lovely bike. I was on the fence for a RE Interceptor for a year, test drove it 2 times. This one just needed one testdrive to convince me, also the lower price made my decision easier as a second bike. I really like it, great looks and it feels as a big bike.

Is it just me or does anyone else think Triumph have kinda copied paint tank designs from the Interceptor and definitely from the continental GT with the band stripe across the tank ?

@stuartfillingham

Жыл бұрын

Its not just YOU!

Three cons I doubt by looking at the spec sheet. I may be wrong: 1. They may look old school but they definitely don't sound old school. I haven't seen any video of the exhaust sound of these motorcycles. Being an Indian we love the single cylinder dug dug of our Enfields. 2. They are high revving. So throttle comfort I think is out of the question. 3. They may look and feel completely different. Trust me Jawa was resurrected with a high revving engine. Could not click with Indian customers. Honda against their heritage developed a long stroke motorcycle cb 350s and they are a attractive proposition for Indian customers. I think the motorcycle sales will fizzle after initial hype. I absolutely love the way they look. I hope that I am proved wrong with my assumptions.

This will cater to young crowd in the west who were buying KTM 390 or Interceptor 650 as their first bike.

I want a premium, efficient, reliable moto with 500 or fewer cc’s. As long as the price is actually competitive, the nvh is premium for a single, and the fuel economy is efficient for the power being generated…Triumph seems to have nailed it! Now where’s the XE version so I can go play more comfortably on dirt roads!?!

I totally agree with you about Triumph. Never mind 'beginner bikes; like this pair, even their more swish and desirable Speed Triples have an issue where finding neutral when at a standstill is almost as difficult as winning the lottery. Oversights in failing to attend to that kind of thing, as well as the twins' gearbox flaw that you previously experienced, and more importantly Triumph's attitude towards same are indicative of innate Mickey Mousery.

I like your observation that maximum hp and torque comes at 8,000 rpm! That's not the engine I want. And gobs of heat...no thanks. But it's an incredibly good looking bike. Can't wait for rider reviews.

It’s great that we have a smaller motorcycle from Triumph. How it rides and handles is what will sell them. And if quality is up to the expectations RE will loose sales but not to cost. Cheers from Oz 🇦🇺

I like the theory of the 400 but I can't help thinking it really should have been a 500 twin , tapping into their heritage of 500 twins , the only single I can remember is the tiger cub which was a 200 I think . The 400 looks good though , we will have to see what the reality is , and the price , my guess is around 7k

Should have been a sub 500cc twin. So probably gonna be "done and dusted" by, you guessed it RE Hunter. Thanks Stu.

@mattdog1982

Жыл бұрын

I agree. If I was into modern looking bikes, I’d look at the mt03. Now, if Yamaha brought out an xsr300, the game changes once more.

This engine's Compression ratio of 12:1 is a shocker for this segment tbh...was expecting 10-ish or 11 : 1 For context, the Duke 390 stands at 12.88 : 1 & BMW 310 stands at 10.9:1 and these engines barely give 30 kmpl in city. So the fuel economy of the Triumph 400s will be hard to accept for the fuel sensitive Indian. I bet a fuel economy of 27 kmpl in city and 30 in the freeways will be a stretch by itself :( For competition, we've had Hero (world's largest 2 wheeler manufacturer) & Harley coming together to launch a 440cc oil cooled 2V single which has a power of 27 bhp & 38 nm torque. Its got a compression ratio of 9.5 :1 and is homologated with fuel economy figures of 35 kmpl !! ... now thats a super relaxed engine! Proper roadster. Like u said Stu, this bike is a new segment altogether! A brash roadster of sorts?! I dont see another bike ever made with this design philosophy & tuning setup for a single cylinder.... Wish this 400 was a twin cylinder :(

Triumph dealer told me yesterday, £4995 for the Speed and £5500 for the Scrambler, if true, they will sell them by the shed load.

It's great that Bajaj are now selling bikes internationally. I just hope the Bajaj 400 comes with a Bajaj price tag of 3,500 pounds.

@jonr1122

Жыл бұрын

Designed by Triumph, and built in Triumph factories I think.

It's ok, but I'm not convinced I'd buy one. gold forks, doesn't really appeal to me, it's not a retro scrambler feeling to me, and I think it will be £6k. I think I'd still prefer a RE classic or Himalayan.

Thanks, Cartman . you have turned into a fine gentleman I used to watch South Park and I thought it would never happen congratulations 🎉

I couldn't take my eyes off those golden fork legs, they really stand out in otherwise quite conservative colour schemes, but not in a good way. Triumph uses these golden forks on several of their other models as well, and to me they are totally out of place on retro styled bikes like these.

Thanks Stuart for your analysis, but we look forward to the test drives and to know the sale in Europe. These two bikes are very beautiful and interesting and technically more complete than theRoyal Enfields, which I still love and own. We will see in the next year. Regards from Italy 👋✌

Controversial take, but I think the bike should’ve been branded as a Bajaj. Instantly a £1000 cheaper.

Just checked the Triumph website in the Netherlands Fuel Consumption 63.1 mpg (3.73 L / 100 km) is stated for the 400x.

@stuartfillingham

Жыл бұрын

Ah worse than speculated!

My first bike was a Triumph Trailblazer (T25) a 250cc "trail" styled single. I went everywhere on it and rebuilt it many times, sometimes at the side of the road. The scrambler version of this new Triumph 400 is therefore always going to pique my interest. I had a few of the Hinkley Triumphs when they first came out and they were good bikes and I struggle a bit with the "badge engineering" thing but that's really all in my head - if a bike is good and you like riding it so what? I've currently got a Classic 350 which I'm loving but you know I'm just going to find myself in a Triumph showroom some time when these come out - and taking a test ride. Interesting times.

Stuart , I believe the pipes coloration you are pointing out is because they may be made of stainless steel . You may disagree , but I believe Triumph knows what their doing .

@stuartfillingham

Жыл бұрын

Yes I know exactly what they are made from but stainless steel doesnt go that colour until it has reached a certain temperature, and these are double skinned. Its not a fault it is an indication that these lean burn engines run extremely hot!

another well considered commentary Stu. I like the look of it but very much doubt it will be £2k-£2.5k better than a Hunter. If they'd done a low-revving Bonny that might have been a different story though!

Excellent video Stuart, thank you it is good to hear some honesty. I would not be interested in a high revving 400 single. Would much prefer a Royal Enfield Hunter to be honest.

Here in thailand, the speed 400 starts at £3,500

I noted that at approx 3-mins into the video, you were riding behind a vehicle which had a cyclist decapitating load protruding from its rear near-side window. I was quite relieved to see that the vehicle turned off to the right at 3:59, as I must admit to feeling a little uncomfortable in case it did attempt to overtake a cyclist. Then to my surprise, just 20-seconds later you did actually pass the luckiest cyclist on the road that day! Goodness knows what would have happened if either the vehicle had been 20-seconds ahead of his schedule, or the cyclist had been delayed by 20-seconds!

I am completely sold by scrambler 400x but not sure at all about the quality and after sales support from SmallTriumph in Canada! I might got towards Z400 just because of huge support and community behind 400cc Kawasakis!

I think it's fantastic I these will sell like hot cakes , who cares its designed or engineered , look at the German car manufacturers for instance, & it sounds like you have a issue with triumph no matter what they do ,

@stuartfillingham

Жыл бұрын

Thanks Captain obvious! I think I made my opinion of Triumph pretty clear, several times!

@mekon1256

Жыл бұрын

LOL my word Holmes how on earth did you deduce he doesnt like Triumph? I mean apart from the fact he was very honest and upfront and declared the fact several times in the Video!

@stevewalker1677

Жыл бұрын

You sound like a fanboy!

@neilbenton1152

Жыл бұрын

But he owns triumphs lol , 🤨

Personally I'm disappointed that it's not as first reported a 250 and possibly called a T20 Tiger Cub ☹

I would love to see this larger Indian company make a remake of a 1960 R60/2 with the Earles forks and shaft drive ..Low compression running low octane fuel maybe 50 hp but modern brakes and strong suspension for a steady long lived practical bike ... The world needs a strong practical bike that is easy to take care of and is built proof .. ...

I could see this bike being around 6.5k usd after dealer fees maybe 8k usd, i still think the royal enfield scram is a better buy

@shakkaka12435924

Жыл бұрын

@@Leo-vj4iv Yeah, Royal Enfield is doing an amazing job.

I personally like the look of the machine and the lower MPG wouldn't worry me TBH, But Triumph would need to have it very competitively priced here in the UK to get me interested,. I doubt Royal Enfield have anything to worry about here, which is a shame for Triumph, nut i don't think they can compete, RE have a great range of bike's for all pockets. Cheers Stu 😊

😊 The India price for the Triumph Speed 400 has been Announced. It will cost inr 2,23,000/- for the first 10K bookings and then inr2,33,000/- . This is approximately £2,230/-. Imagine a Triumph sold in India for this price. The new 400cc Harley too costs the same give or take a few hamburgers. What fun 😊😊.

@stuartfillingham

Жыл бұрын

Let's see

The shape of that saddle is amazing! I was in love for the Hunter and then for the Classic 350...but MY GOD...if this bike is less than 5500 Euros...im buying it!

@farmoboy83

Жыл бұрын

add at least 1500eur to that value...even honda 500 range is close to 7500eur in my country, too close to ninja 650 and sv650. This new triumphs will be slightly cheaper than the trident i am sure

@aussietramp

Жыл бұрын

@@albion2742 Thats why is for beginners. Every level has its own bike. You wanna power ,you dont buy a 350cc, do you?

Morning Stuart 😊 like the look of these models especially the scrambler 👍only time will tell after a good British winter 🤔 it will be interesting to see early owners reviews 😊 safe riding 🏍🏁🇬🇧

I think there is a move (in this country at least) away from large capacity motorcycles, and given the modest power outputs of the Royal Enfields, punters want a little more Oomph and are prepared to pay a bit over the top of RE's offerings... I think this is Triumph's target market... As to looks...? Bang on for the modern classic, as for overall performance? Well we'll have to wait and see... but on looks, they seem to have hit the target... lets see which level of "Wounded Rhino" Triumph select for their pricing...

@stuartfillingham

Жыл бұрын

It will be a short one with the standard 20mph speed limits on the way

Thought it was a Himalayan Scram at first soooooo……. Maybe they need to remind us it is a Triumph…