I'm glad someone addressed this. I was pretty shocked when I saw the video of NGT saying this. But this does raise another question: Where did Tyson get his information? I know he's not a historian, so he probably just read the book of some orientalist. That's the person we really need to seek out and address any other false information he's likely spreading throughout academia.

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

Within academia such false information has been addressed. In fact academics are shocked that someone could still maintain such a position. Such misinformation happens to fulfill a certain agenda, so it has been spread more as of late.

@HopDavid

6 жыл бұрын

Tyson invents his information. I am not accusing him of lying, though. He has a vivid imagination, poor memory and strong personal prejudices. This combination can lead to substantial errors from confirmation bias. A spectacular example: Tyson's account of President Bush's 9-11 speech. According to Tyson, Bush delivered a divisive speech attempting "to distinguish we from they" during this time of intense anger. When Bush's actual speech was a call for tolerance and inclusion, exactly the opposite of the xenophobic demagogue Tyson falsely portrayed. See this Washington Post article: www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/09/27/neil-degrasse-tyson-admits-he-botched-bush-quote/ The Bush and Star Names story and the mangled Ghazali history are not the only examples of Tyson falsehoods. He will routinely study something with half his attention and then build a story around it. Which is usually entertaining but often wrong. See my list of his errors: hopsblog-hop.blogspot.com/2016/01/fact-checking-neil-degrasse-tyson.html His mangling of high school physics and math is merely annoying. It is not like his audience of Katie Perry and Kim Kardashian fans are going to pursue mathematics. So if they believe the set of transcendental numbers is a larger set than irrational numbers, no harm done. But his invented histories attacking religion are a serious offense. I'm all for criticizing religion if it is fact based criticism. Criticism is valuable in calling attention to our weaknesses and flaws so we can work to correct them. But bearing false witness is a completely different thing -- it leads to confusion and error. Tyson's popularity exposes the hypocrisy of a community of self proclaimed skeptics. People like Michael Shermer, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Lawrence Krauss, et al will tell their neighbors to question their assumptions. They pride themselves on being able to separate truth from fiction since they supposedly test claims by examining the evidence. But we can see Tyson year after year delivering demonstrably false claims to pseudo skeptic audiences. They do not question these claims. Rather they warmly embrace the falsehoods that seem to support their personal prejudices. They place Tyson on a pedestal. Again and again he is invited back to these "skeptic" gatherings. Tyson effectively demonstrates the credulity of Shermer, Harris, Krauss et al.

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

Unfortunately, most people do not know that.

@mk6995

5 жыл бұрын

@@jelumbard It is sad, Iknow that now, His fame got the better of him and activated some kind of pride i noticed. Anyway I believe as it was said before OUR TRUE ENEMY IS OUR OWN IGNORANCE, and these days is very sad for me because I see ignorance not only from the idiots but from the intellectual/educated/scientists :(

@vhinab13

5 жыл бұрын

Did Dr. Tyson said "evil" and not "satanic"? It's not the same based on the context of what he said. As I understand it, it means "something very bad happening, that causes harm or damage".

For non-arabophones, here are some of the names mentioned in the video: - Abu Hamid al-Ghazali (the 10 volumes belong to a book called « ihya ulum al-din ». The English translation is called « The revival of religious sciences ») - Omar Khayyam - Nasir al-Din Tusi (his book « Tazkirat fi ilm al-hay’a », « Discussion on the knowledge of the cosmos ») - Al-Birjandi - Ali Qushji - Ibn Nafis - Ibn Qush Towns: - Baghdad - Samarkand - Maraghi Other words: - Fiqh = jurisprudence - Kalam = philosophy-theology - Fard kifaya = communal obligations in Muslim legal doctrine. It means that those obligations are only performed by some members of the community, not everyone. Should be easy to look things up now.

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks for your help!

@Toast-M1

6 жыл бұрын

You're most welcome. And thank *you* for this.

@Chronically_ChiII

6 жыл бұрын

Yeah, this comment is practical.

@Abdullah-london

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you Zainab!

Shukran Professor Joseph. May you be increased in beneficial knowledge and continue to educate us

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

Thank you. Please share with others who may be interested.

Keep up more Historical misconceptions on you tube. I didnt even know you had a youtube channel. This is awesome.

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

I did not plan to have one. I just wanted to collect the various videos that people posted of me in one place. This is the first time I have decided to do so something with it myself. We'll see if I do anything more.

@hellasowb3036

6 жыл бұрын

Who is he? I will google him after I send this...but if you want to explain who he is I would be curious. No offense to the guy but he not as good a speaker as Neil.

@F_15_AK47

5 жыл бұрын

Please do it.

@imanislamihsan4542

2 жыл бұрын

@@hellasowb3036 he is a scholar. And he speaks like a scholar and a person from academia... Neil is not a scholar and he speaks the way the masses probably usually want to hear people speaking and by that i mean overconfidently as if they know everything :) I prefer listening to scholarly views such as this one provided by Joseph Lumbard, as they are more accurate and worth getting knowledge from.

It's so great to see someone clarify this.

@jelumbard

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you

Thank you for the video. It was evident from having watched the lecture in question that Tyson had not read al-Ghazali’s work. He had quite literally judged a book by its cover. It is “The Incoherence of the Philosophers,” and not “The Incoherence of Philosophy,” which seems to be a common mistaken inference. Jazakum Allah wa salam.

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

Thank you. Yes. He is clearly spouting someone else's argument.

As-salam Alaykum Joseph and JazakAllahu Khair

Please, Jospeh, keep it up. Your work is informed and informative.

@ghffgbcbshsgffg4795

6 жыл бұрын

Zineb R ,DVD

We need people like you Dr, please keep spreading the knowledge. I'm sitting in war torn Kashmir without proper internet access. Only with more scholars like you can our plight better. JazakAllah

@jelumbard

2 жыл бұрын

Allah yatik al--khayr and give you ease.

This is indeed a great initiative, professor. JazakAllahu khair

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

Thank you. Allah ya'tik al-khayr.

Great to see you, Joseph. Please make more videos. I am so glad to see this video. JazakAllahu Khair

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

Thank you. I will try to make a few more videos as time allows.

@mgggggggggggggggg

6 жыл бұрын

it will be a great benefit to all of us, may Allah reward you and bless you for all the great work you are doing

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

Thank you. Please share with those who may be interested and let me know what you might like to hear about.

Day by day I get to love watching Joseph's videos. I like his lectures. Thank you for bringing Islam back to fundemental understanding again. Knowledge is the key

I am glad someone took the time to respond to the claims and arguments Tyson made in that video. Thank you Dr. Lumbard.

Can you specify the book of Ottoman science and technology that's coming out? I've read "Islamic Intellectual History in the Seventeenth Century" and is really fascinated by it so i hope to learn more

@wilsonpoindexter6116

5 жыл бұрын

Science Among the Ottomans by Miri Shefer Mossensohn

@Zooasaurus

5 жыл бұрын

@@wilsonpoindexter6116 I've read that. A great book, but i still didn't know what book is he referring to that released April last year

Important fact about Islam and science is that Islam doesn't stop people from doing any scientific discovery as evident in Surah al-Baqarah meanwhile, not trying to insult Catholics or Christians, the Church has denounced claims and evidence from people like Galileo and condemned them as heretics.

@sophiaperennis2360

5 жыл бұрын

Galileo was a humanist, and one of the founders of the modern west, or among one of its originators. There was a larger play at work here in that the Church was attempting to protect itself from the onset of the same scientistic world view that is threatening Islam today. The truth of the matter is that Islam is actually just as incompatible with this scientistic world view as traditional Christianity was, and the biggest insult is precisely that of conflating the golden age of Islam with the scientistic west. This association betrays the belief in the superiority of this world view and modern science over tradition, for the only mean by which many people seem to think would validate the achievements of the Islamic civilization is to interpret those achievements in light of modern science alone. Very often i see people arguing that the Islamic golden age was great because of all the "inventions" made during this time, which to me shows the extend of the domination of the modern western perspective in the minds of non-westerners. The truth of the matter is that Islam during the golden age was actually superior to the modern west, and so was medieval Europe.

@JustinHerchel

4 жыл бұрын

@@sophiaperennis2360 based comment, would like to add, that Catholicism, like Islam believes in the compatibility between the two revelations of God, i.e. the natural and the scriptural, and even has a dogma about it - called fide et ratio. Even though I'm not a perennialist, and don't believe in the divinity of Jesus, we should tell the truth and not conceal it.

@edwardtimothy3581

2 жыл бұрын

@@JustinHerchel so, what i mean? I don't gwt it 😅

7:11 What is the name of the book? Thank you!

well done Prof.Dr.Nasir Fazal Cambridge

احسنت! God bless you.

Thanks, I was indeed looking for this much-awaited video as I asked you this question as well جزاك اللهُ خيرًا

Thank you Dr Lumbard. Could please make a short video reviewing Sachiko Murata's "The Tao of Islam; A Sourcebook on Gender Relations in Islamic Thought"?

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

It has been a long time since I read Murata's book. So It might be a while before I could get to such a video.

@mohammads.r.370

6 жыл бұрын

That's fine Sir. I also understand you must have a busy schedule. I, and I am sure many others, would greatly appreciate our teachers helping the Ummah remember the richness and beauty of the Islamic tradition, via easily accessible formats (like KZread). Thank you for your hard work. Jazak Allahu Khairan.

thank you

I have been interested in understanding reasons behind the intellectual stagnation and decline in the Muslim (you have barely touched upon some in your video) world and how we can reverse it. Any recommended readings you can give me? JAK

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

"Islam Fundamentalism and the Betrayal of Tradition" has several essays that touch upon this.

@hishamradwan6902

6 жыл бұрын

Thank you, sir! I will check it out.

@banjoowo4001

2 жыл бұрын

Incorrect Hadiths have corrupted the main mind of Muslims, they fail to realise the meaning of Quran but give blind faith to incorrect and nonsense hadiths

A good discussion. I'm glad I was referred to this video.

What kind of Islamic calligraphy is that up on the wall ? Looks interesting.

@josephlumbard709

6 жыл бұрын

It's surat al-ikhlāṣ in a decorative square pattern.

@edwardtimothy3581

2 жыл бұрын

@@josephlumbard709 nice

What did Neil misunderstand to come to his conclusion?

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

I am not sure what the precise source of information was, but this is a myth that floats around in various circles.

Excellent argument.

Thank you for clearing this up, although I can't help but wonder where the contribution has gone in the modern day? if it is not absent due to Abu Hamid al-Ghazali then what or who is to blame? as the absence is undeniable currently and I am unsure why?

@jerryhotep1810

5 жыл бұрын

Jamie Blezard strange that no one has answered your question.

@seeyouchump

5 жыл бұрын

I think people always try to search for the most complex answers to this particular question, while the answer might be much easier than you think. I am convinced it is not the muslims who stopped developing, but the Europeans who made enormous, unprecedented advances within a short period of time. I mean just think about it: from 6th to the 15th century, Europes scientific contribution was at its lowest point. 300 years later - all of a sudden - you had the industrial revolution! The progresses made by the Arabs from the 7th to the 15th century were overtaken by Europe in probably less than 200 years! If you look at history, you will realize that the muslims at the 15th century were at least just as advanced as the Indians and Chinese, both folks which belong to the first civilizations, with unprecedented contributions as well. An othter words, the muslims were - just like the Chinese and Indians - for their time very progressive, in fact probably the most advanced culture in terms of science and technology. So the real question shall be raised: how did the western scienctific status skyrocketed at such an enormous speed? Either we got the whole idea of the primitive "dark age" completely wrong and they weren't that primitive after all. Which is quite likely, just recently the overall assumption that people of the dark age used to believe in a flat Earth was disproved ( as an example). Or they used some kind of drugs, which increased their scientific potential by multiple times.

@seeyouchump

5 жыл бұрын

By the way, I don't get why people are so upset about the lack of scientific advancements done by the arabs. I am an Arab and very disappointed as well. But people should also keep in mind that just like football or soccer (call it how you want) you can't stay at top forever! That becomes clear when you look at the ancient Greeks: the by far most dominant culture at their time with huge breakthroughs in science, philosophy and politics, as far as inventing democracy, which if you think about it was very far ahead of their time. Now, this very same country are of and IN ruins and jet so far, no one stepped in to ask what has caused this situation. The same goes for Romes/ Italians. The Chinese and Indians also used to dominate the world. Although they are now more and more regaining their reputation, it is still interesting to know what made them stop in the first place? Despite having all the resources what it take to conduct scientific research. I am more of a Ockhams razor type: the easiest explanation is probably the correct one. In this context, the Arabs just stopped advancing while the northern Europeans did. Just like with the fall of the Greece golden age, it doesn't necessarily has to had a profound ideological and philosophical background to explain the downfall, which is by the way a stupid thing to say. Let's pretend Ghazali said mathematics is evil, it's not like the entire scientific Muslim community would have blindly followed him. Scientist at the Muslim world used to have heated debates and discussions which is how it should be in a healthy science community. It doesn't had to have a very particular event in history that changed the entire muslims stand on science. It just can be a coincidence...

@sandal_thong8631

2 жыл бұрын

From what I'm reading it sounds like a philosophy was followed that Islam, the Quran (and in some places, imams) were godly and perfect and not to be questioned. Also, a mystical philosophy was adopted saying that natural laws can't exist because they would limit Allah's power. Like China and India there was little belief in separation of church and state. So it's stuck in a Dark Age, because you can't criticize or reform and a secular society is considered atheistic.

@MohdHilal

2 жыл бұрын

@@sandal_thong8631 your wrong, no human is godly in Islam, the prophets are infallible but not "godly" only God is the divine in Islam, not scolars, not even the Caliph we are not allowed to even obey the Caliph if he commands us to something that is not Halal. and you are also wrong about Quran not being subject for questioning, the Quran itself challenges you to disprove it or find errors and contradictions in it. read the Quran and see how its all constructed with logical arguments, challenges for humans to refute it, brings arguments that you never heard of and keeps asking "dont you people think?", "dont you people reflect", "do you not reason?", "dont you ponder?", "have they no sense?", "these are signs from your Lord, so that you may

Islamic Empire (and it's prowess in science and technology) started declining in the 15th century when Europeans found a away around Anatolia and the Mediterranean to trade directly with Asia (Vasco da Gama et al). Also, new found lands in the Americas enable European economies to amass more wealth that fed it's scientific and technological industries. Notice that most prominent European scientists and thinkers predominantly appear after the 15th century. Al Ghazali has nothing to do with the decline in Science and Technology advancement in the Muslim world.

@edwardtimothy3581

2 жыл бұрын

Yep. So the decline is real, but Al Ghazali has nothing to do with it. I think scientist try to correlate between the decline of science with the philosophy of the religion

Why dont you post the video to the original video?

Thank you! :)

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

Thank you. Please be sure to share with those who would also be interested.

May I download this video and share this on my KZread channel?

@jelumbard

2 жыл бұрын

Salaam, I have no problem with that.

Many thanks for making this video!

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

Thank you.

good

I would like more videos on various methods of pursuing studies in Arabic and Islamic sciences as a non native Arabic student

Thanks for setting the record straight on this. Tyson does seem to go off half cocked and, as he's become more well known, that tendency has increased. That said, where there is a vacuum, nature will find a way to fill it. Many are aware that prior to the European Renaissance the Islamic countries led the world in scientific knowledge, had a somewhat enlightened tolerance of nonbelievers, and even a more balanced role for women in society. It seems that in all of these areas there has been retrenchment and people wonder WHY? Can you talk about that some?

@edwardtimothy3581

2 жыл бұрын

I'm afraid scientist has lost its true identity of being agnostic

Thank you Dr. Lumbard.

Brilliant video. Subscribed !

6:50~ heard up to this point till comment found, I would say that there is no culture without people bringing it up and down and we all have a great burden in our pursuits to more diplomacy

Neil deGrasse should make a public apology. Shouldnt he?

@jelumbard

3 жыл бұрын

That's not gonna happen.

I am iranian myself and Muslim as well . I know khayyam is the one giving us best calender in world you know what that means ??? He knew the best how universe works

👍❤☝️

Hi! Thank you for the video as it gives me an alternative perspective as a layman. However I believe that someone adopting a self-righteous stand of deciding what and when something becomes corrupt/harmful and therefore must be restrained, is a cause of stiffling of thought and progressa and promotes suppression. Wikipedia entry on History of Scientific Method also doesnt talk beyond 12th century, although I am assuming that the focus is on 'which people affected the growth of modern scientific method that eventually came out of Europe' and not on 'what were all the scientific discoveries of Islamic culture'. Can you please see this paper by a person from Harvard and tell in layman terms if it is incorrect and on which points? "Religion and the rise and fall of Islamic science". I didnt see the mathematical analysis sections but the content is in favour of Golden Age and decline narrative. If I want to understand and tell someone or my school science students in simple terms 1) who were some key people who influenced development of modern scientific method and European scientists? 2) why and when did science decline in Islamic world to its present condition?, then what can I say? Stanford Encyclopedia etc seem too complex for me to understand, and if I were to believe you then many easier writings like the paper above, wiki or newspaper articles are factually incorrect and I am left confused. Please help. I might be making a request for oversimplification and brevity which might sound superficial, but it will really help me in learning and telling kids and others interested in understanding 'science and society' if you can explain simply and also give some weblinks with simple text that I can refer. It will also be relevant help as I am from India and caste system of Hindus has been criticised as the major cause for downfall of Indian science-technology as it separated labour and intellect, and made the former inferior and restricted it to lower castes while upper castes revered abstract metaphysical discussions rather than exploration of material world. Thank you.

This is so refreshing. I was so irritated when I saw his video and his unthoughtful remarks. Could you please state in a few words, what, in your opinion, played a major role in the decline of the Islamic Golden Age?

Did Dr. Tyson said "evil" and not "satanic"? It's not the same based on the context of what he said. As I understand it, it means "something very bad happening, that causes harm or damage".

Very interesting Thank you !

Thanks for the video. It is really hard these days to find sane, scientific and more importantly fair sound like yours. Regarding the book you cited, could you please mention the book name that tackles the technology in the Ottoman era ? Finally, still we need to elaborate more on Al-Ghazali's occasionalism that is thought to be impacting hard the Islamic view of causality as well as natural laws.

@jelumbard

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you.

assalamualaikum brother

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

wa alykum as-salaam wa rahmatullah

I wonder if it's not just mere coincidence that I came across this channel whilst searching "Islam Joseph" when I wanted to learn about the prophet. Salam

@SamuraiKage-iv3ow

3 жыл бұрын

Check out the biographical series by Yasir Qadhi. Very detailed and informative and his delivery is excellent and it must be mentioned that he is a respected scholar within the Islamic world (at least in North America).

I hate it when popular scientists say such erroneous and irresponsible things and people start having a bad image of Islam

Thank you.

Great video masha'Allah. Subscribed! Not sure if you've ever thought of doing something where you can come up with hypothetical cases in Islamic history. Examples can be: "What if the Ottomans got defeated by the Byzantines?" You can write about the brutality, elitism, and dishonesty of the Byzantines. You can go on about how the Byzantines in many ways provoked the Ottomans (i.e. making threats to demolish the Kaaba and building a church in place of it)....etc "What if the Ottomans fought against the Spanish Inquisitors instead of the Safavids?" This could be about Ottomans taking on territory in modern day Spain and Portugal, and how the territories in the new world would subsequently fall under the control of the Ottomans... how it would influence things in modern times. I'm sure there's other scenarios, but ti would be a cool concept to introduce where it can be demonstrated that the Ottomans and other Islamic empires weren't as brutal as their supposed "victims"... just a thought :)

balance

@jelumbard

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you

When knowledge shifted to the west the dark side emerged

☪️ Three Muslim nobel prizes in the sciences in the last 120 years, a shining light of intellect amongst the nations! Let us hope for another three in the next 120 years inshallah. ☪️

@muhammadabdar-rahman9957

2 жыл бұрын

Your comment is cringe

I would love to see and you and Neil DeGrasse on a panel

Isn't questionable that an established scientist makes a simplistic erroneous statement regarding al Ghazali math commentary. In fact, his attack as to what followed shed light on his true intentions. Very sad that an atheist scientist choose to establish his atheistically confounded beliefs or lack of, over scientific evidence. If it wern't for the works of that period we would still be using roman numerals and call fractions works of the devil.

If u dont taste certainty u ll never understand ghazali

If what this man says is true and Islam provided a support system for science, then why that support system does not manifest itself in madrasas? Why there are virtually no scientific discoveries, or achievements in Muslim countries? Why atere are virtually no Muslim Nobel Prize winners? I just wonder.

brilliant !!!

At 6:02 you say exactly what de Grasse is saying that al Ghazali did.

Will you be addressing Dawkins statement about all of Islam receiving fewer Nobel Prises than one English University?

@jelumbard

5 жыл бұрын

It is not factually incorrect. So I have no reason to address it. The Nobel prize was established in 1895 and first awarded in 1901.

Preemptively saying thank you so much professor. I should've asked you about this before. There's also an article about this on Yaqeen Institute: yaqeeninstitute.org/en/asadullah/scientism/ EDIT: Thank you so much. I'll be picking up that translated book and have a read.

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

Thank you.

Mashallah preach the truth brother

anyone else phased out and followed all the entrance and exit points on the maze in the background ?

@josephlumbard709

6 жыл бұрын

Happens to me everyone time I watch the video.

@soukmarrakech

5 жыл бұрын

@Village Cooking While searching the exits, did you notice it's actually "surat al ikhlas" from the Holy Coran? 😉 start from bottom right and go clockwise

So a video request from myself, how can the Islamic World come back to the Golden Age we were once at? The deeper philosophical question I have is, what sort of benefits does learning Mathematics, Physics, Astronomy have for a Muslim? Perhaps Al-Ghazali mentioned it in his book? If you could summarize it for us in a video I would be grateful.

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

al-Ghazali does not expand upon the benefits of mathematics. But there are many benefits, such as training the mind. Beyond that the scientific applications can lead to and have lead to technologies in which many societies find benefit, etc.

@hamim8029

5 жыл бұрын

Destroy the banking system. Kick the government. Burn current history books. Install non interset based currency. The wait for magic

Thanks for introducing the the muslim scientists who have contributed to scientific knowledge, and more importantly for setting the record straight.

God bless you

@jelumbard

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you, And you

So the decline of knowledge means abandoning the Islamic mysticism? ..

Thank you for clearing that up. May Allah bless your work!

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

Thank you.

@jerryhotep1810

5 жыл бұрын

So why are there so little Nobel Prize winners?

neil degrasse tyson did he talk about this on the joe rogan show?

@jelumbard

2 жыл бұрын

I do not know

@cuchulain55

2 жыл бұрын

@@jelumbard sure you do. dont play coy.

He didn't say satanic. Rather the work of the devil. Not much difference but... I took what he said as the Inman ended the only place on earth for 300 years scholar's could freely gather to discuss ideas giving the greatest period of enlightenment. By saying religion was the most important part of life and ending this freedom to gather comparing ideas. I'd love to know where he got this, and it appears wrong. But that's what I took from what he said. Thanks for discussing it. I've looked and nobody else is.

@jelumbard

2 жыл бұрын

He got this from general books on the history of science that still repeat this as a truism.

I love what is on the wall

If NDT was completely incorrect, where are the Islamic Nobel Laureates? Also it was Aristarchus of Samos, a Greek astronomer who lived from 310 to 230 BCE is generally credited with the theory that the Earth revolves on its axis and orbits the sun, although the general idea was probably floating around for a while. Aristarchus published the idea and also used various observations to calculate the size of the sun and the moon. His ideas provoked discussions and further writings by other Greek philosophers like Archimedes and Plutarch.

@jelumbard

5 жыл бұрын

Nobel prize began in the early 20th century.

Salam, and thank you very much for this video and for your research for knowledge and understanding. I would like to point out that the word "Deen" means "obedience" and not "religion". In Islam "deen", or obedience, is crucial, and one of the pillars of obedience is to read and to obtain knowledge. Religion comes from the latin word "religare", which means to reconnect, a totally different significance. This is where the error lies. By using the word religion, the essence of the one and unique obedience, which aims to liberate people, has been deluded. Have a nice day.

@jelumbard

5 жыл бұрын

Dīn is interpreted in manny different ways and certainly has very difference meanings in different contexts. "Religion" is a translation of dīn that has been used by thousands of translators in many contexts, most of whom have thought through the many difference connotations of the word quite carefully.

@linas7266

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you professor Lumbard. I understand this point of view. Still, I believe that, whether the word religion was carefully chosen or not, or whether was it chosen by fear of use of the word obedience, I prefer this word because it resonates better in my arabic mind. Not to forget that translations of the Qur'aan came from foreign sources. Having read the qur'aan sufficiently, I don't see the word religion in my way of interpreting deen. Anyway, this is my personal opinion and engages me solely. I wish that Allah Subhanah guide you and me and everyone else to the best understanding of the Qur'aan, and may we obey Allah and have his forgiveness. Salam

Well this is a far cry from what Mr.Tyson was saying about Al-Ghazali in regard to mathematics. And about the decline of Islamic science after his death. Now that I heard this I can be more skeptical of Mr. Tyson's claims. Without listening to this and one other video I would have believed Mr. Tyson without question. Which makes me feel uneasy about my gullibility. The other video I mentioned is this one: kzread.info/dash/bejne/mHqmyrGxiKrNkdo.html

👍👍👍

Thank you very much

In his book 'The Incoherence of the Philosophers', Al-Ghazali wrote: 'In our view, the connection between what are believed to be the cause and the effect [is] not necessary … [God] has the power to create the satisfaction of hunger without eating, or death without the severance of the head, or even the survival of the life when the head has been cut off …' . In other words: there are no causal relationships in nature. God causes every single event directly and separately. It makes little sense for somebody who believes in ideas like this to look for general laws in nature. Given that he had (and still has) a huge influence in the Islamic world, it is not implausible to maintain that he had something to do with the decline of science in the Islamic world. This decline didn't happen immediately. There were famous scientists after Al-Ghazali, too, as the video mentions. But they were less and less, and the religious establishment had a constantly growing influence. The Samarkand observatory, mentioned in the video, was destroyed by Muslim mobs in 1449. Later, the Istanbul observatory was destroyed in 1580, as soon as it was built. As an example of how the 'philosophers' criticized by Al-Ghazali in 'The Incoherence of the Philosophers' were treated, one can look at the example of the philosopher-cleric Averroes (Ibn Rushd) in Islamic Spain in the 12th century. His books were burned in Muslim Cordoba in 1195 and he himself was banished. His ideas and commentaries on Aristotle were ignored or shunned in the Islamic world (but they continued to have a great influence among European scholars of the Middle Ages).

@DrFit96

3 жыл бұрын

Maybe you didn't understand our theology , what you are refering is the difference between ( sorry my academic english is very poor but i will try ) mind based judgement and experimental based judgement According to out beliefs , every thing happens in universe cause good arranged it like this as it seems ! , Whoever good will and might is the true drive for any thing and can he can break the rules he made Example , when we feel thrist > we drink water 💦 and you feel thrist no more Water in reality is just a nominal cause and the true cause is goods will These - trail based - rules don't get broken unless by a miracle 😁

@DrFit96

3 жыл бұрын

🤔🤔i don't know how Aristotle gets shunned in Islimic books , alot of logic books do refer to him Avorrces case was abit special , maghribs were known to their hatred toward logic and even kalam Comparing kalam books of razi and some one like el sanosi is a bit of a proof of it

@ahmedbellankas2549

2 жыл бұрын

Alghazali offered two views,the you mentioned and another one which accepts causality,he doesn't affirm any of them,his whole point is to shed skepticism on skepticism about miracles.

It was Tusi and not Gazali who is responsible for maraga observatory. Gazali is not an expert in astronomy as you claim. Linking the Islamic scientific tradition to gazali is a mistake. Gazali was against the study of natural philosophy (physics chemistry biology) and pure mathematics as he clearly stated in his book munqiz mina dalal .. Neil Tyson is correct in his assessment of the harm gazali s position brought to Islamic scientific tradition

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

Basta Bey Please listen to the talk. I did not claim that Ghazali had anything to do with the observatory at Maragheh. I used that as an example of the continuing scientific exploration after al-Ghazali. Furthermore, I provided direct quotes from al-Ghazali, which demonstrate that his position is far more nuanced that what you are attributing to him. To assert that something was said without providing evidence does not an argument make.

@bastabey2652

6 жыл бұрын

Expecting a traditional apologetic defense of Gazali 's intellectual supremacy, It is my mistake that I missed your Tusi reference. I still disagree in your attempt to muddy and camouflage Gazali's clear position against theoretical mathematics and sciences. Your argument that Gazali is only attempting to protect weak minded muslims against the temptation of complex heathen knowledge is not accurate. Gazali allows and encourages the study of astronomy since it helps in finding the direction and the time of prayers despite the apparent dangerous link between astronomy and astrology. Gazali is the master architect of the muslim mind and his view of the world that lasted generations until our time. In a global interconnected world, in an age of unprecedented information access, the idea of filtering information exposure from muslim mind is futile and absurd. Gazali acted as the great islamic filter or censorship in an age where it was still possible. Finally, Gazali doesnt take all the blame for the degradation and disappearance of the scientific tradition in the islamic world. Gazali has certainly became a trademark for a muslim zealous mind that glorifies a past utopia to escape a bitter current reality.

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

You have very limited knowledge of Islamic intellectual history. Dozens if not hundreds of significant Muslim intellectuals criticized al-Ghazali, from Ibn Rushd to Ibn al-Arabi to Ibn Sab'in to Ibn Taymiyya to Mulla Sadra. He was certainly an intellectual giant, but was one figure among many others. The West has over emphasized him due to the fact that al-Munqidh min al-Dallal was very appealing to Christians. The point I am making is that 1) al-Ghazali had a far more nuanced position regarding the sciences than is attributed to him (you need to read much more than al-Munqidh) and 2) theoretical sciences continued unabated after him. A decline that occurred in the 16th and 17th centuries cannot be attributed to a person who died in 1111.

@bastabey2652

6 жыл бұрын

I am echoing what how learned muslims in my circles (US and middle-east) view Gazali's reign over islam's intellectual heritage. Living in the west, you have the luxury of an open unhindered exposure to knowledge. Last time I checked, ibn Arabi is a controversial figure among the official religious establishment in the middle-east. In fact, I would prefer any heathen european city as a place of intellectual research over the most enlightened city in the history of islam.The late egyptian ibn Arabi professor Nasr Hamid Abu Zaid was labeled as heretic by Azhar because of a book he wrote about Ibn Arabi. Nasr was divorced from his wife, stripped from his academic post and had to flee to Europe. Ibn Sabin, author of buddu al arif, the idol of the gnostic, and the arch enemy of ibn taymiyyah, is even more controversial and obscure intellectual figure than ibn Arabi. The glorious islamic utopia , you are marketing to muslims can only provide superficial bandaids. I prefer a straight and non apologetic exposition of Neil Tyson allowing muslims to face the fact that they are to be blamed for the demise of their scientific and intellectual tradition.

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

If one is going to come up with a solution, one must properly analyze it. Tyson even states that the decline began after the Mongol invasion and after al-Ghazali. The Mongol invasion was in the mid 13th century. Al-Ghazali dies in 111. He is just flat out wrong. Look at what happened in the 16th and 17th centuries to explain what happened at that time, rather than employing an incorrect and utterly simplistic critique. Many if not most of the stars he mentions at the beginning were named long after al-Ghazali passed.

Talking about RELIGIOUS SCIENCE is like talking about HOT ICE. Both concepts are alien to each other.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but the mistake that neil made here is it wasn't bc of al Ghazali that islamic society decline in it scientific development? But still, it is safe to assume that indeed there's had been a decline?

Islamic astronomy is all about to find mecca with more accuracy.

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

That may have been among the initial objectives. But it went far beyond that. The interest in calculating the direction of prayer would not explain the continual extensive development up into the 16th century of the common era.

So why did it decline? The Incoherence of the Philosophers by Abu Hamid Muhammad al-Ghazali!

@zackyzau2505

5 жыл бұрын

The Islamic empire not being able to sustain due to attacks by the Mongol Turks.

@qinshihuang7576

Жыл бұрын

It's mainly due to Mongols. Islamic empires still made improvements after the Mongols in science but it wasn't the same.

Do you really believe in what you are saying? Ghazali, may God forgive his soul, reject causality and law's of nature, he proclaimed, not only there is nothing to know but inquiry in them is impiety. Muslims don't know nothing about their own history, but you should know better. And Tosi did belong to different sect of Islam, Ghazali ideas became part of Sunni orthodoxy and declined began. Sure there were some bright mind here and there, always harass by faithful Muslims, May God guide you to the truth.

@edwardtimothy3581

2 жыл бұрын

So what are u? An agnostic?

Even though I found Mr. deGrasses's presentation of this issue about Ghazali 'interesting,' I often wondered who else had opinions on this person and have sought more information about him. As Mr. Tyson has been quoted as making some rather outlandish statements about Astrology showing he knows nothing about it apparently, I question his sources about anything he says about anything outside of his area of expertise. Who would go to a dentist for heart surgery and live to tell about it? These media folks in the west are quite superficial often, presenting individuals who may be well informed in one area, but ignorant in others and yet their opinions are revered just because they happen to be a 'celebrity'!

@edwardtimothy3581

2 жыл бұрын

I disagree about him knowing nothing about astrology, but I'm agree that it's not his expertise

Assalamou alaikom Dr. Lumbard, and thank you again for this necessary clarification. NDT is nothing but an actor, and a humiliation to the human mind and spirit. I would like to hear you talk about what the Qur'an says about liers and hypocrites. May Allah bless you and all muslims.

@jelumbard

4 жыл бұрын

wa alaykum as-salaam, Thank you for your kind words regarding the video. When I have eliminated lying and hypocrisy from my own heart, I may be qualified to say something about it.

All knowledge are from Allah, and Muslims used and investigated knowledge for noble purposes. There are ways to manipulate God given knowledge by crossing boundaries made by God.

Thank you Sir. Lumbard for the clarification.بارك الله بكم و أدامكم ذخرا للأمة الاسلامية Tyson and many others do this intentionally to mislead individuals; they adopt the good things in sciences and in parallel put before us the confused or illogical moments in the great Islamic heritage in particular, or religions in general to serve their evil needs; thus, alas this is totally unfair! *So woe to the wrongdoers from the suffering of a painful Day* (The Holy Quran 43-65)

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

I think that Tyson is more a victim of your classic Euro-American education than a nefarious force. Unfortunately, insofar as it justifies many colonialist narratives, that Euro-American education itself has nefarious dimensions.

You don't lose knowledge..you just lose ways of finding it..

@edwardtimothy3581

2 жыл бұрын

Nice

Frankly, i have an issue with the way people glorify scientific knowledge, and technological knowledge in particular, and dismisses everything else as irrelevant or non-existent. I'm not going to say this is a "western" prejudice because i'm sure Tyson and his irk have as low an opinion of medieval Europe as they do of Islam, but it is a modernist prejudice that has risen in the west and one that seems to have infected non-westerners as well. Indeed, many people, including many Muslims, are relying on this prejudice when they seek to ascribe to Islam the "glory" of the modern west, a self-defeating attitude if there ever was one, because by the standards of the modern west, there is nothing in Islam, even during its golden age, that even remotely compares to what the west has "achieved" (something which those who profess the superiority of the west over other civilizations will not fail to point out). I'm putting those words in quotation marks because i don't find this glory or those achievements to be as impressive as those raised under the mentality of the west, whether they be westerners or non-westerners, seem to believe. In a sense, the reason people latch on so much on this supposed "golden age" is that they have a sense of inferiority towards the west, having internalized the standards for greatness set by westerners to begin with, and seeking to find a way to redeem their own cultures according to those same standards. But the standards of the west are not superior. And the sciences modern westerners are so proud of are actually inferior to the spiritual sciences ancient cultures possessed, including ancient Europe. Science in the ancient times comprised many aspects of our reality, from the physical to the spiritual, and did not focus on strict empirical observations of physical phenomena, divorced from an higher metaphysics, and the production of mechanical "inventions" alone (the ancients were actually not particularly interested in the latter, and regarded those inventions as mere curiosities at best), because the ancients were neither materialists, nor rationalists, positivists nor atheists, if one wants to be frank. And if one examines the underline principles of modern western science, one will discover that this science is actually wrong at the level of its own metaphysics. The understanding of reality the modern west possessed is actually inferior to that of almost any other civilization in the world, including, as i said, medieval Europe as well.

@BBrunswick

5 жыл бұрын

Sophia Perennis Western science is inferior to the ancient knowledge. That is some tall order. There is a debate to be had over the spiritual vacuum that exists and in my belief the necessity of religion which for me has to be Christianity. Rationality will not give absolute values only relative ones, but that may be another discussion. But to label the astonishing breakthroughs in science of the last two hundreds years as anything other than defying belief in their magnitude is just ignorance. Where do you start? The science of the very small ie quantum mechanics, unlocking the secrets of DNA, the periodic table of elements to the dizzying cosmic scales of supermassive black holes and virtually everything in between - it is just jaw dropping. Old van Beethoven along with the titans of classical music is very much a product of the west. In the West there is a lot wrong but the basics are amazing and I am so grateful to live in the UK today.

Joseph Lumbard, I would like to see these criticisms published in a peer reviewed journal. On Tyson's Wikipedia article I want to edit it to include Tyson's invented histories. Just about all Tyson's cautionary tales against religion are based on invented histories. This needs to be brought to the attention of a larger audience. As a Wikipedia editor I am required to back up edits with Reliable Sources, RS for short. Self published blogs and videos aren't admissable. What they call reliable sources is a third party publication where a writer's claims are reviewed and fact checked. Tyson is very influential. Go to www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/search?q=Neil+deGrasse+Tyson&restrict_sr=on&include_over_18=on and you will see many ex-Muslims have left the faith because of Tyson. You can find the same in other subreddits like excatholic, exchristian, etc. I am fine with criticizing religion if it is fact based. But Tyson is attacking religion with falsehoods. This should be strongly condemned. Please endeavor to bring this to the attention of a larger audience.

@black_s0ck

4 жыл бұрын

The holy trinity?

I firmly hope Neil deGrasse Tyson will not just become another "New Atheist". So far he has kept aside from that cult, stating that he is not even an atheist - one hopes that the islamophobic rhetoric so prevalent today doesn't catch up to him.

I have seen the video, Niel D. Tyson works on the ignorance of people.

Hare Krishna !

Shouldn't take one's knowledge on the Great Al Ghazali from NdGT!

Tyson is right. Brother check your info. Gazali was a disaster in Islam. Read incoherence of philosophy.

Isn't religious science an oxymoron?

@jelumbard

6 жыл бұрын

Not within pre-modern Islamic civilizations. Many people were accomplished religious scholars and accomplished scientists, such as Nasir al-Din Tusi, whom I mentioned in the video. Many have even argued that the Quran enjoins us to scientific investigation.

@HopDavid

6 жыл бұрын

There are many who regard science as a way to more deeply understand the majesty of God's creation. Many of the greatest scientists and mathematicians have been believers. The notion that our universe follows predictable laws was popularized by believers. Systematic search for these laws by testing a hypothesis with repeatable experiments was institutionalized by Muslim and Christian philosophers. List of Muslim scientists: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_scientists List of Christian scientists: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christians_in_science_and_technology Many folks like Krauss or Tyson aggressively attack those with beliefs. They seem intent on keeping Christians or Muslims out of the science club house. Which would have excluded people like Gödel, Planck, Heisenberg, Newton, Galileo, the scientists and mathematicians from the Islamic Golden Age (which lasted until the 1600s, not the 1100s as Tyson falsely claims). These aggressive non-believers are doing a great disservice to science.

@echelon2k8

5 жыл бұрын

@@HopDavid "Many of the greatest scientists and mathematicians have been believers." That's not really saying much considering many more of the worst scientists and mathematicians have also been believers.

@iqbalmuhammad2920

5 жыл бұрын

Muslims scholars from the Golden Age (8 ~ 12th ce) used science (maths, physic etc.) to determine their position, distance, direction for daily pray, calculation for the default distribution of wealth of the deceased, projection for the time of the sun & many others. People can be religious (or spiritualist or believe in pan theism) & scientific at the same time like Russell Wallace, Roger Bacon & many others.

So in simple terms, al-Ghazālī condones censoring science for religious reasons. I think that was Tyson's key point, thanks for confirming it. If this is not fascistoid totalitarianism, I don't know what it is.

@zackyzau2505

5 жыл бұрын

Boundaries have to be drawn in the practice of every discipline. Otherwise it can greatly harm society. Even governments in western societies don't allow their scientists to do whatever they want.

@edwardtimothy3581

2 жыл бұрын

@@zackyzau2505 fair enough. But i think that's why Science and religion can't go together. One is focusing in moral while others focusing in new information and possibilities