I often close my eyes at concerts. I prefer just to listen.

@lukewaddell67

6 күн бұрын

I try that sometimes, but I have a bad tendency to nod off when I do...

@ScottAClarke

6 күн бұрын

I, also,usually have my eyes closed. With eyes open, I’m multitasking, which invariably compromises what I hear. Also, there’s the novelty of having my eyes closed in public. Where else is it advisable to do that?

Leif Segerstam once, with the Danish Radio, had two guys with cowbells walking sideways along the back wall of the stage in Mahler’s 7th, and then stop when they didn’t play, then walk again. It was quite comical, and they were not enjoying it. He was also the one who came up with the idea, that in Nielsen’s 4th, the 2nd timpani player was in the audience in regular clothing, then rushing up onto the stage, to interrupt the music at the end of the 3rd part. Dausgaard continued this ‘tradition’ with the Danish Radio (and others), and I did it many times with him. I kind of enjoyed it, especially the time when a lady behind me said to her husband, right before I was getting up, “I think this is never gonna end!” I turned around and asked her if she wanted me to stop it. She looked at me confused. “I think I can stop this”, I said, got up and rushed to the stage. I wonder what she thought she had set in motion, when that happened.

@DavesClassicalGuide

6 күн бұрын

That is great!

At this point in my life (I'm 75), listening comprises nine tenths of my music experience. I do enjoy live concerts and well produced performance videos, but easily could live without them. The auditory experience is the essential thing.

I'm hearing much more with my eyes closed, particulary when listening to orchestral music. It's true for both live performances and home listening.

It was reported in 2019 that a psychologist and pianist named Chia-Jung Tsay, for her doctoral thesis at Harvard, conducted a study of over a thousand viewers of music competitions that showed that those who watched the competitions without sound predicted the winner with greater accuracy than those who listened without video. We were also reminded in the past week of the late Roger Ailes's comment that one could best judge the winner of a political debate by watching with the sound turned off. I've always been more of an ear guy than an eye guy -- I can barely describe the color of my house without looking at it -- but I guess that I and others like me are the exception.

A piece that's always exciting to *watch* is Rite of Spring.

The battle of the 2 timpanists in Nielson s 4th Symphony is epic

I'm happy to sit and listen to a Bruckner or Mahler symphony with eyes closed, but we're particularly visual animals, so no harm done if a visual element is added. And as someone who also loves rock, metal, jazz, and other genres, I know full well how important and fun the theatrical visual elements of music performance can be. And there are cases like, say, Sun Ra or Devo, where the costumes and choreography are very conscious, integral parts of the artist's aesthetic vision or philosophy.

Also, slightly unrelated, but one 'visual element' I that i absolutely love in classical music are those score videos on youtube, i enjoy being able to follow along with the score while i listen, especially with piano music

@Jasper_the_Cat

5 күн бұрын

Yes I really enjoy this, too! I'm a guitarist but I enjoy 'sight-reading' along with a piece as I feel like it gives me a better idea of the intent of the composer.

I think a little part of our want for visual aid comes from ballets and musicals. Also from operas where stage performances are an integral part.And not to forget that movies ever since have music specifically composed to keep us glued to the screen. Listening to symphonies by Gustav Mahler or Shostakovich is a real treat in our modern days where visual stimulation can come in too many bites at once.

George Bernard Shaw wouldn't even watch the visuals of opera performances, instead prefering to lean back in his chair, close his eyes and use his imagination. He felt the visuals could be too distracting.

I love the KZread videos, most of which have excellent audio. Yes, the cameras tell you what to look at, but Honeck, Jarvi, Macelaru and others really are fun to watch especially when on the gym treadmill. I conduct right along.

A very interesting point you have raised. I've changed my mind about this recently - I've come to the realisation that I get more out of music when I can watch the performers. If I am watching as well as listening then this means that the visual half of my brain is also invoked, sharing the experience, which improves the concentration. If I am just listening then those visual neurons get bored and fidgety and want to think about something else. One trick I have tried while listening to recordings is to try to visualise what the performers would be doing or try to imagine what the score would look like page by page. Get as many as possible of those grey cells involved.

I (lamentably) have no formal musical training and cannot read a score. Videos of symphonic works given me an insight into orchestration I might not otherwise have.

I'm now imagining a production of Wellington's Victory with live ammunition.

I have discussed this on other channels. I have been a violinist since I was 11 [had to give up for left-hand reasons a few years ago]. I have played in many, many concerts, and watched many, many more, and listened to many, many more, and spent thousands of house listening to records/CDs/MP3s/other digital [not of course in our host's league]. If you give me the choice, I prefer to LISTEN - which is why I so often shut my eyes. This works for me wherever and however the musical forces are positioned. I am not interested in histrionics on the platform. There are three exceptions: if there is a soloist, I want to see what the soloist is doing [but again, I am not interested in histrionics]; if it's a ballet, I want to see what the cast is doing [but opera - not so much...]; and Andre Rieu concerts, where the visual element is an integral and essential part. And popular music is another matter again.

I gave up going to concerts when I started paying attention to the shine of the musicians' shoes.

Having lived my entire life (so far) in Kansas, there has never been much opportunity to see an opera. My interest in opera over the years has developed totally from recordings so that when I actually "see" an opera, particularly on YT Or DVD, I find the visual aspect of the performance distracting.

@bbailey7818

6 күн бұрын

Nowadays, the almost invariable and inescapable cognitive dissonance between what the music and words tell us while the stage director has decided that he knows better and creates his own scenario has made watching opera almost painful. I'd much rather listen to recordings and visualize what's going on according to the creator's ideas.

@DavesClassicalGuide

6 күн бұрын

You said it brother!

Re MTV (a pop music corollary), I didn't have regular access to MTV in my glorious youth. I did absolutely love the hyper-emotional and theatrical music of Kate Bush -- the music. Years later when her videos became available on KZread, I realized that I would never have been a fan if I had seen those freaky visuals back in the Eighties.

I went to the stardew valley concert in my city, and all the artists at one point stamped their feet in unison. It was such a cool looking percussion technique!!

I understand completely your feeling about 'concert videos'. I rarely 'watch' them, preferring to just listen. But we are creatures of sight MUCH more than creatures of hearing. This is why Stockhausen tried keeping the audience in total darkness during his electronic music playback. His plan failed; people got antsy; so he began to project a FULL MOON on the ceiling to make things less claustrophobic. But that said, how can any mere audio recording capture the experience of Stockhausen's ANGEL PROCESSIONS? So he knew the eyes needed something more than a moon. And speaking of Crumb's wonderful VOX BALAENAE -- I thought sure you would mention that fade-out ending, where Crumb wants the performers to GO THROUGH THE MOTIONS at the finish without making any sound, as if the thing has faded out beyond human hearing but is still going. Can't get THAT on an audio recording.

One interesting aspect of accompanying concert performances with visuals is the often entertaining actions of conductors. On at least two occasions Leonard Bernstein stopped conducting the Vienna Philharmonic with his baton and "conducted" by dipping his shoulder, raising an eyebrow, or knodding. Barenboim did the same thing with a performance of Ravel's Bolero with the CSO; he simply put his hands down and leaned back against the rails on the podium. Then there is the conductor suddenly crouching down to let the orchestra and audience know we are going into a pianissimo passage. As I intimated earlier, sometimes entertaining but sometimes distracting.

Mildred’s mewing affected how I saw & heard you at the outset: cat vocalizations to their humans are always about they want from you, and, being her human (at that moment), you immediately interpreted it for us. Thank you. 😅

One can't always get a box seat right over the orchestra and in the orchestra seats most of the musicians are visually unavailable. Thats why the use of sophisticated video elements are so wonderful on YT. They have really improved in this immensely! When the whole ensemble is viewed you never see the cameras and alot of care is put into the timing of the complex cueing of the visual and aural focuses of the work. It's a delight to see on screen! The musicians are beautiful and get both aural and visual attention as they deserve. We see the conductor from the front, not behind. We see his expressions. I love live performances but they arent available where i am since our orchestra closed some 20 years ago. But certainly technology has come up to the plate regarding recorded performances! The same is true of opera.

@DavesClassicalGuide

6 күн бұрын

The last thing in the world I want to see is the conductor’s face.

@davidmayhew8083

5 күн бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuide well, it sounds like you've got issues. If the performers wore balaclavas would you be happy then? Or burkas? That might be visually entertaining.

Well, I think it depends on the manner in which you’re introduced to classical music. My proper introduction was in the classroom by an instructor who challenged us to identify composers by the record on which he randomly dropped the needle. It was fun and definitely successful in recruiting my teenage mind to the ranks of classical music devotees for life. Despite subsequent introductions to the world of opera, recitals, symphony season opening galas and the like, the visual element has, more often than not, been of marginal interest to me. The live performances uploaded on KZread are appealing because of their immediate, fresh, unmanipulated-by-studio-engineers sound quality. Even mistakes by musicians have appeal because they add to the “now” aspect of the occasion. It’s about THEIR moment, not the audience member sitting at home, the bus or wherever you happen to be receiving the pleasurable sounds. And they can be as unkempt and disheveled as bums but if the playing is generally superb, what a find! All the other accoutrement of classical music can hang, as far as I’m concerned. When it becomes central to any social gathering I seldom desire to participate. We all have limitations! Thanks for the post. Fun one. 😎

I only ever *listen* to Dave's talks ;-) - unless Mildred or Finster are mentioned, then the visual element becomes suddenly very important!! Actually at concerts I try to make a point of sitting where I can see the pianist's hands flying about (in Glasgow's City Halls you can more or less sit directly above the soloist), but I've been to some operas where the stage action is so appalling that I can't look at it (Covent Garden - I'm looking at you). Horses for courses, I guess.

There have been laserdisc performances that I’ve treasured and were initially unavailable elsewhere, whether or not I chose to close my eyes. I love the ambience and sense of occasion offered by Bernstein’s Berlioz Requiem at the site of its premier, with huge French flags draped in the background and with the French president in attendance.

I really think that visuals can help us listen more closely. To your point about how correspondence between the senses is exciting and a great thing about going to concerts, it also often improves concentration in each sense, and performers' physical choices can reveal things in the music you've never heard. I actually tend to prefer conductors that are *somewhat* animated and are "translating" the music into visuals at the same time they're guiding the music, because they help me and my body lock into the sound and story in a unique way. At home, I also tend to generate a much stronger relationship with music when I'm looking at a score, for some of the same reasons. (Even though I then tend to build on that relationship by listening without a score.)

@twosetviolin recently did a video where they attempted to follow various conductors doing the opening of Beethoven's 5th. They play without the audio, and then see how well they sync up. It is funny, shows how often musicians need to listen to each other to stay together, and alas underscores how well Karajan communicated through his gestures.

As someone who's newer to listening to orchestral music, I do appreciate the visual to help me know which instruments are playing and get accustomed to different timbres. For example, I don't think my ear is good enough to distinguishing between violin and viola yet - esp where they cross over in range. Having said that, it's frustrating if a camera isn't focused on what I'm trying to figure out. As a guitarist, I and other guitarists can figure out quite a lot regarding particular voicings by watching videos, so it's sometimes helpful from a learning perspective.

I share your views about the annoying marketing people who promote the appearance of the artist first & foremost...or the frankly un-musical antics of performers & conductors which are clearly designed as self promotion. In general, though, I find that attending a concert is always a visual learning experience. I learn more about the music actually seeing it played (especially in a hall with good experience & where relative proximity to the orchestra/artist is possible)...and one learns so much else bedsides: the attitude of an orchestra to a conductor, for instance, can often be read from the body language on stage. And how the players in the better orchestras invariably give it their all, & importantly, listen to one another & dialogue with one another. Recordings don't capture these dimensions, at least not overly.

I frequently close my eyes when I'm at a concert. I really do.

To me the audio aspect is what connected me to the music. I have attended several concerts throughout the course of my life and I found that adding the visual of witnessing Mahlers resurrection symphony made for one of the best dates I ever had..but I agree first and foremost the auditory aspect of active listening proves most beneficial , visual aids i feel can be useful in introducing a newcomer to classical.

One can add Stockhausen's Gruppen for three orchestras, which has been done with the musicians at different locations in the auditorium and the audience between them (it is on KZread), and Carre was written for 4 orchestras presumably in the same set up, but let's not get into the demands made in his Licht cycle as I assume opera is not the component in this talk.

Hear! Hear!

How about Scriabin, who imagined visual components in performance? In 2019, the Eugene Symphony performed The Poem of Fire and The Poem of Ecstasy with the realization of the “light organ” Scriabin imagined. The Light Organ was a sculptural orb suspended above the lower orchestra seating, about 10’ in diameter. It contained various light sources that were programmed to reflect the references to color Scriabin included in the scores. This was augmented by additional lighting effects behind and alongside the orchestra. The intent was to realize, to the extent possible, the performance Scriabin imagined. I thought that it effectively reinforced the intention of the score. That said, I found the music more than enough to occupy my complete attention, so the added visual events were challenging to add to my attention.

I like to visualize an orchestra while listening to recordings. Nothing specific, just something to remind me that I'm hearing real people playing the music. Sometimes recordings can feel very artificial and sterile to me, especially with the advent of synthesizers. I have to deliberately remind myself there are actual people on the other end of the temporospacial line.

The Florida Orchestra played the Inextinguishable about 20-25 years ago. Alas, the conductor placed the timpanists side to side in the center rear on a raised platform. Not optimal.

I remember two episodes where I listened to a live symphony concert with eyes closed. (1) A mediocre performance of Zarathustra led by a conductor whose name I have long forgotten. He danced and cavorted on the podium like a bargain-basement Bernstein without the talent. (2) A performance of The Planets accompanied by photos from NASA. It worked great for Mars and Neptune, and maybe Saturn, but was incredibly distracting otherwise.

David, you’re so right about that MTV video experience, generally speaking. I liked the ones the Fixx did, for example, because you saw the band performing (well, miming) their songs. The mood of the vid matched the mood of the music. But a perfect example of how bad the video was for the song was the Flock of Seagulls’ I Ran. It showed them mimicking the recording, but what the hell was going on there? I really liked the song though. I agree with you about the orchestral videos. Sometimes they get it right, showing, say, the winds followed by the bass and then the whole orchestra, so forth and so on.

Something like the Ride of the Valkyries scene in Apocalypse Now?

One of my favourite piano concertos (Thomas ades - in seven days) is usually performed with an accompanying video, but personally i enjoy listening to it far more without the video than with the video, the video is just distracting to me and makes the music feel secondary

So there are two different themes in this video, if I understood correctly. One, how we are brainwashed to focus on sex appeal for the creation of music star soloist and conductors. The 2nd how , as is their right, creators(like composers)have used in the past the vidlsual effects to make a point.

One of the things that amazes me about these chats is that Dave finds so many unusual, varied, and interesting topics. I always had problems watching Byron Janis, a pianist I otherwise admire, because he made "soulful" faces while he played. Curiously, I pay no attention to Yuja Wang's costumes while she plays. I'm far more interested in her arms and hands.

It's a "thing" to perform Holst's The Planets accompanied by visual images of the solar system. Leaving aside the fact that the music is inspired by the Roman astrological/immortal characters and not the physical orbs themselves, I just don't have enough awe in me for both at the same time. Rather than enhance, each element is cheapened.

My 2 cents worth: people are hard wired to derive meaning from narrative, which is more easily conveyed through words (songs) or some sort of physical representation (such as you describe). They are usually not interested in discerning musical structure or abandoning themselves (emotionally) to the vicissitudes of a complex melodic phrase or harmonic progression. It is not difficult to envision a future in which purely auditory musical presentations, in our painfully reductive (notice I didn't say vulgar) visual culture will go the way of reading books.

Wang and Mäkelä (or their handlers) hardly invented anything though. Karajan’s carefully designed looks (he would have been a great embalmer!) were an integral part of his musical career, maybe contributing largely to fuel the accusations of superficiality that always followed him.

@christopherjohnson2422

6 күн бұрын

I remember watching Ozawa and Boston SO on “Evening at Symphony” on PBS, and being struck by Ozawa’s practice at the time of wearing a turtleneck shirt. And by the way, it’s my recollection that WGBH’s “Evening at Symphony” and “Evening at Pops” were meticulously planned out. WGBH even used split screens, even 3-way splits. Modern directors of concert videos don’t or can’t be so fastidious.

Exactly how i feel about it. I never watch concerts on video anymore...these terrible close ups of bored looking musicians who seem to pay no attention to what the conductor does...and indeed, you are forced to watch something that you don't want to see at a particular moment. But also: would you have any clue what orchestra plays, let alone who the conductor is when there would be no information on the cd.. ?

The visual is the only interesting thing in many contemporary Broadway musicals. It’s rare to hear a score that doesn’t need serious help from pretty sets and costumes.

I'm not saying I understand it, but sex appeal & audiences getting turned on is a factor too, as in paintings, and cars.

Looks don't seem as important in classical music as opposed to popular music i don't care what they look like zas long as the performance is interesting and exciting but i presume Yuga wang and Klaus Makela being attractive helps promoting their concerts