I always interpreted "Mirror, Signal, Manoeuvre" as "Be aware of what's going on, make everyone else aware of your intentions, follow through if it's safe". That's served me pretty well.

@markgambrill

3 жыл бұрын

This is what I came to the comment section to say. Just as Ashley points out, 'mirror' oh there's someone there. Then either abandon and wait for a safe space or 'signal' to show your intent. If someone kindly makes sace for you then 'manoeuvre'. If not then again abandon. You should be willing to abandon at any stage.

@TheChipmunk2008

3 жыл бұрын

@@markgambrill yeah... USE the mirror, not glance at it.

@johnkeepin7527

3 жыл бұрын

Yes; MSM is really just a shorthand mnemonic, to emphasise that we need as much information coming in before making a choice of what to do at any given time.

@Equiluxe1

3 жыл бұрын

Thats exactly how I was taught to drive, always be aware of everything going on arround you, mirrors should be adjusted so that you do not need to turn your head in order to see them,unfortunately so many modern cars are made such that this is next to impossible with the center rear mirror obscured by the rear head rests and side mirrors far to small and positioned such that you have to crane your head/neck to use them especialy the near side one. Also pillars are so big that something the size of a bus can be hidden behind them even at close quarters. I know that all this is for "safety" reasons but it is not safe if your vision is obscured by the cars structure.

@johnkeepin7527

3 жыл бұрын

@@Equiluxe1 You’re right. Actually, it was via Ashley’s output that I have done the best at adjusting my door mirrors to avoid a built-in blind spot between centre and door mirror visibility on multi-lane roads, but there’s always a bit to the left rear on account of the body structure. Of course, the structure of other things is even worse, such as trucks and buses, so that it’s quite easy to get into their blind area as well, especially after dark, even with the lights on; been there, done it, got the T shirt.

Your pupils get a gold standard IAM course compared to a lot of other instructors. You can’t learn it all in 10 lessons and a test , but teaching someone to do something is easy, teaching them why they’re doing it is a real life changing skill Nice one

The lesson we should take from this video is that driving isn't black and white as Ashley had previously said in his other videos.

@ConquerDriving

3 жыл бұрын

Absolutely correct Artem, I personally dislike that we are encouraged to teach MSPSL. When should you look and when should you consider you position and speed. Of course the answer to that question is all the time!

@oliverbrookes27

3 жыл бұрын

Driving is an art based on scientific principles.

@artemkatelnytskyi

3 жыл бұрын

@@ConquerDriving Hi, Richard, and thanks for replying to my comment! Do you, as a driving instructor in the UK, HAVE TO stick to the MSPSL routine, or can you introduce your ways of teaching?

My instructor (50 years ago) would say "Without looking at the mirror*, tell me what is behind you", interspersed with "What was the last road sign?". He developed an all-round awareness in his students. Bing a biker also helped, as did having been fly-half in the school 15. My first few lessons were alone with the instructor, but when it got to the point of practising the examination route, when two students would share a two hour lesson. That's because the exam centre was half an hour away in Cambridge, so one student would drive there, have half an hour in the exam centre area, then we'd swap. I found that very helpful as it is much easier to see mistakes in others than in yourself, and it provided the impetus to get things right and avoid peer embarrassment. *In those days door mirrors were not common (they'd have had to swing out with the quarter lights), and wing mirrors were almost unusable.

@alanbest5879

3 жыл бұрын

My instructor would do the same. He was very clear that the most important part of driving was awareness and keeping your concentration on the road. Once I was driving naturally he would ask me to "narrate" the journey; asking me to make educated guesses on what people around me were going to do and spot checking what was behind/beside me. In most cases now I am using my mirror to re-confirm the positions of the other cars on the road rather than using them to see who was behind me (small point checking both behind and blind spot before moving is essential due to some drivers being extremely unpredictable). Another thing he taught me was to plan and drive a route; I realise this is part of the test now with sat navs but then I did it with a Liverpool city A-Z and it was initially scary but fun and very worth while. These videos around the double-roundabout in Norris Green are bringing back plenty of learner driver memories :D

@frogandspanner

3 жыл бұрын

@@alanbest5879 Cambridge learner drivers of my era were petrified by Mitcham's Corner, and Trinity Street/King's Parade, which were swarming with cyclists. If you took out fewer than 5 bikes you passed.

Love how KZread picked up on MSM and forced me to watch a money supermarket advert before this video😂

@Maddmank

3 жыл бұрын

Get add blocker dude 🤣

@bazzacuda_

3 жыл бұрын

Check carefully what they do with your data, could be a saleable asset.

@cockpiss9260

3 жыл бұрын

That would be a welcome change from constantly being offered a subscription to a Volvo.

@jackhstproductions649

3 жыл бұрын

I got M and S as well 😂

@andrewnorris5415

3 жыл бұрын

That's down to the MSM people choosing that as a keyword! They must reckon that those who really mean their business are worth showing an add on, and the rest may still be into it as it's a general service they sell. Funny though!

My instructor used to ask me what was behind me. He was not interested in great detail. Lorry/Bus/Car and dark/light. The idea was that I would be aware of what was behind me but no so aware that I was not concentrating on what was in front of me. He was also very aware of when I was looking in my mirrors and built up both my competence and my confidence by initially showing that I was not looking enough and later that I was.

@TheChipmunk2008

3 жыл бұрын

Perfect

Again, people doing things routinely rather than adapting to the current situation that is around them at that point. Loving this channel providing a good alternative to routine behaviour. I always preach. Thank you. 🙂

Main stream media is also flawed. But that’s a whole different can of worms!

@mattlad6935

3 жыл бұрын

Actually I thought it was going to be about the Main Stream Media as well! And errrr..... Yeah...... Don't get me started on them! Lol

@guganotubo

3 жыл бұрын

@@mattlad6935 #metoo

@davidellis1079

3 жыл бұрын

Maybe it was a smart choice of name for the video, it might pull in a lot of views!

@andrewnorris5415

3 жыл бұрын

I thought the video meant that when I got the notification!

@andrewnorris5415

3 жыл бұрын

@@davidellis1079 lol yeah, driving deserves a lot more attention than the media give it. The media tend to focus on gossip fringe issues. Ignore what causes most problems or deaths as it's not a story/narrative they can sell. I can understand them in some ways - they need viewers. But it does mean what we get told is not always the full picture or putting things into perspective. They have to sensationalise it all to sell the news. I think the MSM has got worse since people have moved away from them and towards the net. They are more desperate to sell news than ever! Trump gave them a temp boost I reckon and they milked it.

It should be: Observe Think Act

The public considers driver trainers good based on hours needed to pass the test. When it should be, how good is the driver after the test. Also, are they able to help challenging pupils.

@L5GUK

3 жыл бұрын

The challenge with driving is that you don't truely learn how to drive until after you have passed. There is no way that a student can face every single possible situation we encounter in our driving careers. Even those things that may be semi-common, but will only encounter once a year. An instructor can do their best to teach theory in these situations, but ultimately you only learn from experience. Challenging weather conditions, some kind of mechanical faulire (tyre, suspension, etc). It's all very well talking about how to handle a slide, but until you feel what that's like through your arse then it's only ever theoretical.

@Grahamvfr

3 жыл бұрын

Absolutely, unfortunately no figures exist or a likely to exist to confirm the latter. I will often ask parents "do you want your child to drive safely or just pass their test" , they will mostly say "teach them to drive safely". 10 hours in, they will ask me "how many more lessons do you think they'll need to pass"? 😩

@BaldMancTwat

3 жыл бұрын

@@Grahamvfr Well, yeah, because the students don't want to learn how to drive safely. Or maybe they do, but either way, passing the test is the priority. Partly for reasons stated above, like "You only learn to drive once you pass your test" would also make students more likely to want to pass the test and get it out of the way before learning any further safety skills. And of course, the parents just want it out of the way too.

@Grahamvfr

3 жыл бұрын

@@BaldMancTwat I understand fully what you are saying and yes that's the pressure the test system creates. People only learn to drive properly after their test 'providing' they want to, however as we witness around us everyday, lots don't. Safe driving sadly is an ongoing voluntary effort, not something that can just bestowed on us all.

@superdeemon2872

3 жыл бұрын

@@BaldMancTwat I suppose there's an element that students do have monetary constraints when learning to drive, so there is pressure there to pass a test within a given budget, and also within a given timeframe that is sometimes dictated by the need to drive for work, etc. Not every student can comfortably afford £1500 worth of lessons, and a barrier to entry based on earnings/disposable income only serves to punish those worse off. Ultimately, there must be a trade off between setting up a student for safe driving, and getting them passed and onto the roads in a reasonable timeframe.

It's the old Jasper Carrot one where he said his mother-in-law always looks in her mirror before pulling out. Doesn't matter if anything's coming, she's looked in her mirror so she's pulling out.

@ibs5080

3 жыл бұрын

And she panicked and slammed on her brakes because...she saw someone half a mile up an otherwise deserted road pull into their driveway without signalling!

@JohnsysChannel

3 жыл бұрын

I'm not saying my wife is a bad driver, but if she's going the same way the road is, it's a coincidence.

Back when I was learning to drive, 11-12 years ago, my instructor would always go on about MSPSL (he also stated "MSM is old, we don't teach that any more") and ask the "which mirrors do you check". Neither made any sense to me, for exactly the reasons you've outlined: it might be better to do them in a different order / you should always be looking / you should be prepared to abandon a maneuver etc. But eventually I just learned to stop bothering to question it and just nod and go along with what he said so he could move on to something else, while doing my best to drive in a way I felt was safe. I appreciate this video! It puts a different perspective on that whole subject.

You hit the nail on the head with this. If I had a pound for every time someone put the indicator on and changed lanes forcing me to avoid them driving straight into the side of me. It's as if the indicator stalk is moved as the steering wheel is moved more often than not. I'm not familiar with MSPSL, I'm an IPSGA user with the information stage running throughout. I remember MSM during my lessons too many years ago, but hated it as it wasn't taught well enough and left me feeling like I was missing something out!

I had to laugh when you asked "does your instructor say that?" I was taught, nearly forty years ago, by an ex fire service driver and the words that stick with me to this day are "if you're not changing gear get your foot away from the f***in' clutch pedal". Changed days.

@TheChipmunk2008

3 жыл бұрын

good advice

30 seconds in and I'm already thinking it should be MSMBSM, Mirrors, Signal, Mirror, Blind Spot, Manoeuvre, that's how I do it in the car and especially on my motorbike.

My instructor taught mirror signal mirror maneuverer. This is why motorcycles do a life saver (over shoulder check),, a check I do in my car too. It’s kept me out of harms way so many times especially in an age where people sit in blind spots. Riding a motorbike really improved my driving, my awareness and planning.

Speed ,position ,look,mirror signal Maneuver was what I was taught ..mind you that's over 30 years ago !

M I L F. Mirror, indicate, look, fucking manoeuvre is how it was taught to me

@richiebtime489

3 жыл бұрын

Only one MILF meaning for me 😀

@haveabossday

3 жыл бұрын

@@richiebtime489 it's 'man id like to f*ck' isn't it ritchie

@richiebtime489

3 жыл бұрын

@@haveabossday Add a 'WO' and you're there 👍

@afreeman1980

3 жыл бұрын

You are dead right, I have avoided a collision several times due to that last look before my manoeuvre.

@damedusa5107

2 жыл бұрын

My mate did milf ‘manoeuvre. He was so busy with a milf , he drove in to a car.

When beginning to learn to drive, I too just looked in the mirrors for the sake of the routine. Sometimes I would question why I needed to look in them sometimes. Now I realise I was simply not looking in them at the correct time or reason. Been driving a few years now and I am just as aware of what's behind me than what's in front, because I now know when and where to look. No more routines.

@radishpea6615

3 жыл бұрын

So when do you look in your mirrors? checking your mirrors at every second lamp post could be a routine. Checking your mirrors when you are approaching another vehicle to overtake but you are too far away to pull out to overtake could be routine.

@PasteteDoeniel

3 жыл бұрын

@@radishpea6615 Personally I check my mirrors if I have the feeling I don't know where people are. If traffic is stagnant (not a lot of overtakes) then minutes can pass between checks. If cars around me are constantly changing due to me overtaking or being overtaken, then I check a lot more frequent. Basically, if I can't tell you were people are without checking the mirrors, then it's time to check the mirrors.

@aitch8237

3 жыл бұрын

@@radishpea6615 you should be checking your mirrors every few seconds.

@_Steven_S

3 жыл бұрын

@@PasteteDoeniel ah yes. Stuck in a queue of traffic with nothing WHOOOPS, where did that cyclist come from?!

Yes. Appreciating the reason behind the rules. Why are we looking? What are we looking for? How should we react to what we see?

When I learnt to drive initially taught MSM but then moved on to IPSGA which I still use now to help formulate a plan for the developing situation

I'm glad you said this, it annoys me when another KZread driving instructor marks people down for not doing MSM in the right order. When I was taught to drive the mirror checking was taught as a robotic thing, and I didn't understand for a long time what I was actually supposed to be looking for.

In USA it's called SMOG as in signal mirror over the shoulder look and then finally go into the lane you want. I do agree with the situational part.

Thank you Ashley for posting this. I will be recommending this to my pupils, along with your Arive Then Look and 45 degree RBP (and all your other vids) to reinforce their learning that they do in my car. Keep up the good work, stay safe, Paul

I sometimes say to my pupils “remember your brake lights are a signal too.” Helps them think about slowing whilst waiting to clear side roads for their indicators.

I had a fair idea I knew what I was doing when the examiner said to me quote " Well nobody could have done any better than what you've just done on this driving test ! " Experience of riding a bicycle at 45mph on public roads soon taught me road sense and what people's mistakes commonly are.

In his book Road Sense -The Art Of Advanced Driving (ROSPA 1993), Doug Holland gives a useful definition of MSM as "Take effective all round observation and consider the need for signals to help or warn other road users before altering the position or speed of the vehicle". As he says few novice drivers are taught what the phrase actually means, but those few that have are well on their way to becoming advanced drivers. The key is that signals are mentally considered in sequence but physically timed to suit the actual conditions, but any signal given or change of position and/or speed will always be after a mirror check.

Great editing with the central 360 camera and dissolve

Haha..... when I saw the title, my immediate reaction was "Ash is going to have a rant about Main Stream Media"...... then I read the description 🤣🤣🤣. Some really great points there. Situational awareness, position and speed are more important than going through a set routine - also, as stated, each scenario is going to be dealt with on its own merits; i.e. One size does not fit all. Variables apply. Great content as always 👍

@collynkieranmclaughlan6983

3 жыл бұрын

I thought the exact same as you! Main stream media 🤣🤣

The IAM recommend using IPSGA instead. Basically: I: Information gathering and giving. P: positioning. S: Speed selection. G: Gear selection.. A: Accelerate after the turn or manoeuvre.. And at all stages checking all round including mirrors.

@frazermountford

Жыл бұрын

The information Phase is a bubble phase around IPSG which i think explains what Ashley is trying to get across

There should be more instructors like you, teaching pupils the correct way to drive

My instructor used the term observations , and I was taught that mirrors are not just for manoeuvres , make up or hair ( male or female ) . 👍

@_Steven_S

3 жыл бұрын

Yes!! I think I've said this previously on YT, but it's one thing to look.... and something completely different to actually observe. I.e the person who looks right at you and still pulls out in front of you at junctions, roundabouts, etc.

I fund this interesting as I had never heard of MSM until this video, but I learned to drive back in the 1970s. I was taught you regularly check all of your mirrors and speedometer while you drive. When changing direction, be it a turn or lane change or pulling over, you put your indicator on as soon as it's legal to do so to alert people to what you intend to do, then you check your mirrors, check over the shoulder for the direction you're going, and if it's clear and safe you start to move - if not clear and safe you wait until it is clear and safe; often rechecking your mirrors and over your shoulder while you wait. All through this you adjust your speed as you need to as predicated by the situation. I said 'put your indicator as soon as it's legal to do so' because where I live it's not legal to turn on an indicator UNTIL there is no side street on that side between you and where you intend to turn or stop, also it's not legal to turn on an indicator more than 25 metres in advance of where you intend to turn or stop. When I learned to drive there was only the one rear-view mirror in the car I learned on, so the shoulder check was VERY SERIOUSLY ingrained. Then my next few cars had wing mirrors and the ones after that had door mirrors; in each case I set the side mirrors to have the side of the car JUST showing in the edge of the mirror. In both cases this meant I could see what was in the first few feet of what is right beside the car from behind my shoulders and I could also seen almost the full width of the lane next to me from about level with the back of the car. This meant the area of the lane beside me from just behind my shoulders to level with the back of the car did NOT show in the mirror, but it was easily checked with the should check and anything there stood out like a sore thumb with a flashing neon sign on it. In 50 years of driving I've never sideswiped another vehicle when changing lanes or turning as I've always been able to ensure I didn't move until it was safe and clear to do so.

I learnt to drive in South Africa and MSM is drilled into you there as well but it is always taught that it should be proceeded by P for plan; so in essence Plan of action, Mirror, if safe then Signal, quick recheck of mirrors then Manouver. This is prior to any change of position ideally, with the proviso that it is a guideline as you imply and should be flexible. So far this approach has served me well as I have avoided putting myself or others in harms way. Brilliant explanation though that nothing should become robotic and just a routine that isn't flexible such as if you have started a manouver it doesn't mean you can't abort the process if it becomes unsafe.

All rules have exceptions and it's easy to find them. MSM is a starting point for learners, but it's not the be all and end all. The most powerful thing thing I have found, and what i find most learners who transfer to me from other instructors need, is an explanation and discussion of what you are looking in the mirrors for. As for "what mirrors do you need to check?" this is pure training to the test. You've got to do it the way they want it.

Always did POSM, Prepare (Move into the location best suited for the maneuver, like the right turn Ash did), Observations (Check the appropriate areas for the maneuver you a taking), Signals (Apply a signal when appropriate) and finally Maneuver. Works a lot better that MSM and can be applied to a lot more scenrios.

I think we can all agree the whole point of MSM is to inform others of what we are about to do, and that a majority of the time putting the manoeuvre before the other two is daft, especially if you are crossing the path of oncoming traffic.

Your videos keep helping me learn long after passing my test. Thanks Ashley!

I was taught MSM, but my instructor would always just say "mirrors" if I've neglected. He also said that if someone is going on in front of you, and you need to brake, you don't always have the time or luxury to check mirrors first and need to brake.

I wish these videos were around when I was on L-plates 15 or so years ago. But now, as a "professional driver" at the post office I'm grateful to have them here - even at my stage, they've taught me things which have undoubtedly improved my driving

@TheChipmunk2008

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly. when you cannot learn any more, you're just refusing to be taught :)

Another problem with MSM, is that it has become a mantra. People go through the motions without doing the procedure properly. This was evidenced during an incident I experienced on a motorway. I had positioned myself in the centre lane in anticipation of an upcoming joining slip road. As the slip road appeared there was a car followed by a large van coming onto the nearside lane. As I drew alongside I watched the van driver and sure enough MSM. He looked at his mirror, signalled and pulled out nearly hitting me. Fortunately I had the outside lane available. His error was that he looked at the mirror, not into it. I used this scenario with my drivers and stressed the error of the MSM procedure and added the comment Mirror Signal And if safe to do so Manoeuvre.

In Belgium on the E40 they seem to operate a M S M system . Manoeuvre- Signal - Mirror ! Never a dull moment on the E40.

I'm puzzled. Based on observation, I was under the impression that Manoeuvre-Mirror-Signal was current practice.

@highdownmartin

3 жыл бұрын

No. It’s currently manoeuvre, horn ,flash ,chase ,brake check ,post to KZread

@joosiej85

3 жыл бұрын

@@highdownmartin sadly accurate this 🤣

@emilylouise1979

3 жыл бұрын

@@highdownmartin you forgot shout " I got you on camera " lol

@Rallyman72

3 жыл бұрын

@@highdownmartin You missed swear profusely.

@mikebird7161

3 жыл бұрын

Edinburgh drivers have simplified the procedure to just Manoeuvre.

With the "MSM" abbreviation it's easy to forget the "mirrors" part is meant to serve a purpose. They're there to help us assess the situation and decide whether it is safe to signal and then manoeuvre

I learnt more about driving in general after my cat d license. The lessons were all about road position and anticipating other drivers intent. Positioning your bus to discourage over or under taking especially at lights, junctions where lanes funnelled or turns were required. Prepostioning the vehicle that require me to straddle the center markings way before the obstacle over what to get to the obstacle in order to get on coming traffic to understand my intent and make appropriate adjustments to there route before the pinch point. Things I do now as standard.

On my advanced my instructor would often ask what is the colour of the vehicle behind, or which way is the vehicle behind indicating? Caught me out a few times as I didnt know, now I do. I think the habitual MSMrs are often people who have done driver training with Teach to Test Route driving instructors. I did my test in 1994, with the military and we memorised the test routes, so halfway through the test the driving examiners would often throw in a random route urban, rural and built up. On return the instructors used to quiz us on the routes we took. Later on in my career I went back and did my staff car course and you had to do a passing in test. After you were ripped apart from doing habitual safety habits, then we were taught to drive to road craft and think for ourselves. It was a tough course, and it showed how much rubbish we do on the driving test to look like we are fit for the road. MSMrs are a fine example of this.

My method when turning into a side road is more like mirror ,signal , mirror position ,check , manovoure ( check is for a final mirror check and also checking where I'm looking to turn into for traffic and pedestrians crossing as well as oncoming traffic before making the turn . MSM is almost ok on the motorway but not quite right in my opinion. If I wish to change lanes I would mirror ,signal , check mirror and blindspot then lane change . As you said . Every scenario is different .

Only just seen this video and I completely agree, advanced drivers use IPSGA, Information, Position, Speed, Gear, Acceleration. Information of course includes mirrors, indicators aren't mentioned at all because we may not need to indicate, or may simply need to delay it as you mentioned in that situation with the side roads. I would be positioned in the correct lane well before that first side road, lifting off and gently losing speed, and only worrying about gear and indication once passing the second side road. Braking may not occur until the last few metres depending on the traffic lights in that case.

Can I add "twist" in there as well - "Mirror, Twist, Signal, Manoeuvre". You should check blind spots regularly when you move over, and unless you physically turn your head it won't work. Quick glance over the shoulder can save lots of problems.

The issue comes from people stopping their learning once they pass their test and get the pink card. MSM is taught to people who have never driven a car before to understand the process they need to follow. I'm permanently in my mirrors, and always aware of whats going on around me. sometimes my signal goes on before a 'obligatory' mirror check because I'm watching a hazard ahead of me, which needs my attention, But I can justify it because I'll have done an 'optional' mirror check maybe 1 - 2 seconds prior and I know what's going on around me. The signal will go on prior to any lateral movement of the vehicle as a warning to those around me of what I intend to do, however; I'll never actually move the vehicle before I know it's safe to do so.

This explains some of what I see happening on the roads, esp the look last in that list. Also, a few times people parked on side the road with their turn signal on have pulled out in front of me. 1 happened in my home street. The old guy said “he was signalling - so he hadn’t done anything wrong”.....well, apart from no looking behind! If that had been a made road....not nice.

It reminds me of the "Fist of Fun" diving instructor sketch Mirror, Signal, Road, Mirror, Road, Indicate, Mirror, Road or the MSRMRIMR proceedure. You can't even drive!

Would be interesting to see some tuition in a small car, especially an entry level 60bhp one. VW up without the turbo type thing. The BMW is very nice, but it’s not likely to be representative of most peoples first car....especially now with this recession.

In my view it's all about situational awareness, then thinking who will benefit from my signal, and who will possibly be alarmed by it. I signal intent, but others are entitled to read my signal as 'I'm doing this manoeuvre imminently' and not expect me to abandon. So yes, you need to look around before the signal to avoid others misinterpreting your intent. Give people time to adjust based on your behaviour on the road. And that's where good planning comes in - if you look like you know what you're doing and where you're going, other road users can have confidence in you. I don't know the state of play these days, but when I took my test in 1987, you could be failed for poor awareness if you signalled when you didn't need to (e.g. pulling away from the kerb with no car in front and nothing, in a 30 say, for 50-70 yards behind.) My instructor used to ask me "Who were you signalling to then?" and it was never a trick question - he just wanted to know my mindset. My bugbear is people signalling for a previous turn, either on a straight road or to come off a roundabout. People pulling out of there will often assume you're slowing and turning off, and that they can safely pull out! Then you sideswipe them... Nice channel, by the way @Ashley Neal!! Incidentally, I recommend everyone tries at least once to do a running commentary of all the hazards they can see - it 1) makes you look properly, and 2) makes you realise what good awareness really entails!

It's because it becomes an instinct perspective to pass the test. Tickbox method, the very thing that can be dangerous when driving on your own. Many people in their lessons or test would literally just glance at the mirror to tick the box instead of looking at the mirror to observe what's around them. Then as you said, because they've looked they think it's now safe to signal and manoeuvre.

I've always had the same issue with the rote that was ingrained into learners when I started driving (over 50 years ago!) which was at a junction "look right, then left, then right again, then go". On my test the examiner even asked me what the correct sequence was - naturally I gave the "book" answer! My method is, when approaching the junction, check each way as soon as you have visibility in that direction, and when you do move out keep checking left and right as you move off, especially important if visibility is restricted. Of course it may have all changed now!

I start with the MSPSL routine in the beginning and ease off when I see awareness building, it helps with the basics of approaching junctions. The reality of the beginning stages is that I'm doing most of the proper checking anyway. Same thing with the cockpit drill, start with the routine then ease off as long as things are safe. I think a big problem with the MSM routine is that people think S means indicator. Your first example here about slowing down before the two side roads demonstrates this. You're still using MSM, but the S is your change of speed (showing your brake lights in plenty of time). Changing position in your second example is also a signal. I agree with what you said regarding position, in tha tit is a much more powerful signal than indicators. Indicators, in my view, reinforce signals.

IPSGA seems to work in a much greater number of scenarios. Information, Position, Signal, Gear, Acceleration.

Total agreement. I have long thought that much of what is considered to be driving could, should, be classroom taught. That way driving lessons on the road can concentrate on the road. It could also make for safer pedestrians, cyclists etc if taught younger. Anyone remember the old cycling proficiency test? Certainly, when I did it there was as much time spent in the classroom covering things like the highway code as there was out in the playground on those miniature roads. Driving safely is too fluid a situation to be taught by process, what needs to be taught is awareness and the ability to think, not monkey see monkey do rote. This applies even more as the driving test includes maneuvres that are unsafe and nobody able to think past the end of their nose should ever perform.

I remember my driving instructor did MSPSL and he specifically put a little "L" in between each letters because he was trying to make the point of constantly looking and being aware of my surroundings. For me as a learner at the time it felt like a lot to take in at once but the more I drove the more I started to look a lot more and get more confident doing it all without even thinking about it. Most of the time It eventually comes down to knowing the rules of the road and then just using common sense. For example today I was taking someone home and I was in the left lane for the a roundabout forgetting I was turning right at said round about. There was 1 car to my right but no cars behind me or the car on the right and the rest of the roundabout was empty. So I just waited for the car on the right to move ahead and then I moved off behind him. Again no cars behind or even close to it so it was perfectly safe. I probably would of failed a test for that. I'm not sure but because I used my common sense and made sure there was 0 chance of it causing anyone any risk/harm I didn't see a problem doing so. If there were cars behind I would of took the 1st exit as it was my fault for being in the wrong lane and just find a safe way to come back to that round about which would of took about 1 minute extra to do so.

Ash you should be the head of the driving instructors union, the amount of friends iv had tell me MSM should be in that order only is ridiculous! Top man for putting this video out

Exactly as you say, I was taught MSM but only when I passed did I actually look in the mirror and take note of what was actually happening. As in, when learning I done it as a tick box but only when I passed did I really become aware of the importance of mirrors

I think it should be when you are preparing to turn, be aware of what is behind, signal in good time (not as you make the turn (which only says "look what I've just done") and as Ashley says not as you approach a minor turning before the one you want, and don't brake before you signal otherwise it confuses following drivers who will wonder what the heck you're braking for.

Msm is flawed? THANK YOU SIR! 😂 Exactly what I've been saying myself for over a decade!

A better question format is, 'What is around/behind me, what are they intending to do?' I think the previous video challenging the automatic use of indicators helps to break the cycle of MSM because it requires that the driver determines who will benefit from the signal and that requires observation of everyone around you.

My father in law lives beside a busy country side junction which delays when I can indicate into his driveway but drivers routinely drive right up my ass when I slow down and sometimes overtake when I do indicate. There are accidents there almost every make mainly down to how poor people's driving is because visibility is very good.

Generally I find that if I indicate as I’m checking my mirrors and doing my checks as well as having already done my positioning then everyone knows where I’m going. I got in trouble for this when I was learning to drive a car, but it’s something that I started doing on my motorbike when I was 16. I’ve never had problems doing it. I also do shoulder checks when I’m in my car. I find it’s important to look at every angle I can. If you stay aware of what’s around you at all times when you drive, even if you’re not approaching a junction then you’re not going to have a bad time driving (bar others bad driving). If you’re aware of what’s going on around you at all times then you can plan ahead for the bad drivers too. When there’s a junction coming up before the one I’m actually about to turn down like you mentioned at the start of the video: I indicate as I pass that first junction and sort my positioning. Much like you, I start slowing down early and gently and look around too. Awareness is key to good driving.

I don't really think of what I do, I just check my mirrors constantly and keep track of everything around me that could affect me ahead or behind. I can't think of many instances where I've had a vehicle pass me that I didn't know was there. Awareness is the most important thing on the road, not some stupid routine. Always stay alert and aware and always try to maintain traffic flow using all the tools you have at your disposal... mirrors, signals, position and observations and use everything you can see to predict to the best of you ability what could happen and change on the road to effect you and other people.

I think MSM is useful for getting the basics drummed in, like the cockpit drill. I think it's one of those things that's designed for teaching basic driving disciplines, but it's usefulness is debatable in real world driving when things vary as much as scenarios do. My instructor told me about MSM, but he focused more on the mirrors as that is very often forgotten.

very sensible advice Ashley, I wish all drivers watched your videos the roads would be a much safer place to be.

Being a driver of 20+ years I am still constantly learning and these videos are a great source of information, I plan to get my daughter to watch them for reference when she starts learning. I am interested to hear Ashley's take on blind spot checks (sorry if this has been done, I have not seen it). I know most of the time you should be aware of what is around you due to mirror checks, but I have found myself in situations where I am glad I did check as it avoided a possible incident.

@alanjohnston1199

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I felt the importance of blind spot checks wasn't really emphasised in my lessons. I do it everything I manouver, whether it's parking, changing lane or turning into any junction, including left turns. Oh, a bike. I hadn't noticed that in my mirror checks - I'm glad I looked over my shoulder.

"Mirror, shoulder, position, 360 check, signal, mirror, shoulder, move, mirror, cancel signal" That's more of a mouthful than MSM. And my version has branches for "if OK continue, else do something different"

The problem I have is with other drivers acceleration rather than speeding which is usually a constant and being on top of you before you've blinked or pulling out from behind without a warning to overtake or change lane just before you intend to.

The correct way of maneuvering for me is firstly look over your shoulder for the blindspots, then mirror, then signal, then look over your shoulder again, then mirror as you slowly manoeuvre to another lane, then make sure the indicators are off as you complete the manoeuvre. I look in my mirrors on average every 5 seconds and not much catches me out.

Such systems are a good starting point. And each step needs to be made with the qualification of whether it is safe to do the proposed maneuver, not that it automatically makes the proposed maneuver safe at that time. Only after the driver has mastered the basics can they gain the experience to think outside that box.

I'm confident my driving instructor would agree with this video in all honesty. He was highly recommended in my area and I can safely say I recommend his school too! I get that schools and systems have to do things a certain way and said way may not be the best. How many times do you need to use your mirrors when planning and performing the manoeuvre? As many times as needed (also look around you and check your blind spots). Also are people really forgetting that your brake lights are a signal light too? Perhaps these routines should begin with an A to help encourage new drivers to asses the situation first? Then again you should always be assessing of the situation when driving.

On a motorcycle we have OSM and PSL which as you can imagine is observations, signal, maneuver and position, speed, look. We use observations instead of just mirror because on the bike we check mirror and do a lifesaver which is a glance to our blindspot. The position on a bike is even more important because the bike signals are even harder to see than a car and if a motorcyclist positions himself to the right hand side of a junction and say his signals stop working. The majority of people around have a fair idea where he will be going from his position.

I think MSM still has its place in the basics. To get people to move to more integrated planning you could teach to break down driving in to more micro MSMs as an intermediary step In your example where you plan to turn left after some side roads first MSM; check what's behind?, apply brake signal, then brake to slow down. Second is to show you don't mean to turn left in to the side road; what's around?, take primary position, maintain primary. Finally MSM for the turn.

All times I'll right shoulder check if overtaking and left shoulder check when overtook the vehicle to pull back in .. when you've done this for a while it becomes natural ..

Excellent...MSM should be treated purely as a guide, not as a fixed routine. Good Driving is only acheived through an adaptive approach. I was advised in 1997 to get a copy of the book "The Police Drivers Handbook" and I use it as a learning aid in advanced driving techniques. It was valuable knowledge. Most pertinant section for any new driver is to understand, follow and use 'the system of car control' as explained in this book. Final thoughts....not just a book for the police, but anyone. And, the system of car control is a constant feedback loop you use continuously while driving.

I think there should be a shift to try to get people to maintain a continuous situational awareness that involves continual use of the mirrors rather than the MSM concept that perhaps leaves many to be quite happy to wander along for significant periods without having any idea what is behind them and (more importantly) what is in their blind spots.

My instructor all those years ago, never taught me MSM. He went into it one time how it should really be "MSMMMPM" or something, that mirrors should be checked regularly. But it was never "remember your MSM" like I hear other instructors doing.

I was taught it was MSMM (Mirror>Signal>Mirror>Manoeuvre)

Signalling can be taking the form of road positioning, slowing etc

Driving cars is one of the most dangerous things we invented. It can be described as a looking game, know who is where, when, and what will they do.

Manoeuvre signal mirror is what many people do But it's also necessary to give correctly timed signals

i was taught mirror signal mirror manoeuvre. in 1984. always done me well

@alanrobertson9790

3 жыл бұрын

1981 but same argument though its become instinctive.

Well, for me it's kinda only "signal - manoeuvre" cause I always check my mirrors even when I don't want to manoeuvre. Either way, I do have quite a good image of what's going on around me well before I need to move. If things are really busy, I need to start moving earlier.

Yup, there are people out there who think that once they've signaled it automatically gives them priority and the right to change lanes when they want.

@TheChipmunk2008

3 жыл бұрын

we call them idiots :)

Maybe then Look Think Position Signal Maneuver would be more appropriate? With a clear distinction between choosing road position/speed and making a turn or changing lane. This is maybe more common in motorcycle training which teaches adjusting road position to increase visibility and communicate intent to others.

With regard to signalling before a turn, if i am waiting to enter traffic and i see a driver from my right indicating left i will always wait until the driver starts to turn and enter the side road before i pull out. Just because experience. Positioning on a roundabout is no indication of what the numpty behind the wheel will do, far to many drivers have no idea of roundabout positioning, best to hang back until they are commited(unless you have enough horsepower to get out well before numpty arrives).

I think lifesavers should also be taught to new drivers just as helpful on a bike as it is in a car

"Effective " use of the mirrors is the key thing here. As an instructor I was quite often asked "how often do I need to check my mirrors ". Well, how often is often, how long is a piece of string! At advanced level, I was always "coached "

@kevinbarker3366

3 жыл бұрын

about routine mirror checks and required mirror checks.

I was told on a standards check by an SE ADI that we should “Always check mirrors in pairs” as i hadn’t questioned my client on just checking her side mirror as she exited a roundabout, it’s true that she should have been aware of what was going on in all 3 mirrors, but at the time the greater danger in her mind was being passed on the left. If DVSA are still prioritising MSM in pairs are ADIs fighting a losing battle ?

Excellent points made here, and I see it quite regularly!! Drivers quickly glance in the mirror, signal and manoeuvre into Lane 2, leaving absolutely no space between the car in front and the car behind. But they've MSM!! Really it should be While Observing, Position your car, Indicate your actions then Manouvre. OPIM!! What do you think 🤔

Excellent video, As a instructors point of view I wouldn’t really blame the instructor, As in the exam,the examiners require a set routine which is the MSM routine, Although it’s probably wrong...but the examiners are trained the same way. So if anything... it should be Dvsa who need to change things around for examiners so Marking can be done accordingly. I agree with the video and this robotic act must go..

I've always thought this during learning and now still as I've passed my test, good to hear your thoughts on this. My instructor back while learning used to ask me the question which mirrors do you check now?' and I had to ask her to explain to me why I was checking the mirrors as it had never been mentioned...

@nataliedebiase5089

Жыл бұрын

In fact I was only driving the other day and I started breaking well before a junction I wanted as there was a couple of side roads first and only applied my left signal just before my left turn....my husband who has 30 years experience didn't get why I was doing that and said I should have indicated earlier.

Mirror, Signal(car you have seen speeds Up)Maneuver when you can if safe.

Motorcyclist training doesn't talk about mirrors, it talks about observation. This is possibly because the mirrors aren't that useful on motorcycles and because the consequences of getting it wrong is greater. The emphasis is much more about being aware of what is going on around you.

always check your right/left shoulder view , the life saver in the motorcycle world