I would love to see one of these firing in slow motion and seeing the copper squish

@JohnLeePedimore

5 жыл бұрын

It would be cool to see it fire,however the "squish" is probably measured in thousandths or hundredths of an inch and not as dramatic as one might imagine.

@worldtraveler930

5 жыл бұрын

Quick let's get Talfledermaus on this project!

@anzaca1

5 жыл бұрын

@@JohnLeePedimore Unlikely, since they could measure this before 1900, at a time when measuring thousandths or hundredths of an inch wasn't possible.

@shalafi4

5 жыл бұрын

@@anzaca1 Micrometers have been around since the 1850's. thousands or ten thousandths of an inch can be measured that early

@JohnLeePedimore

5 жыл бұрын

@@anzaca1 Joseph Whitworth was measuring thousandths of an inch back in 1857 and the micrometer is much older than that. I'm not sure if they even used CUP on black powder guns back then because the normal method was to "proof test" the barrels by loading a double charge and firing it. Proof testing is still in use in Italy today.

Very technically speaking, a Mosin Nagant with a gas piston.

@PosranaRegistrace

5 жыл бұрын

Taco press included

@Bustin_cider00

5 жыл бұрын

Fully automatic mosin

@fsen1999

4 жыл бұрын

in a very specific sense, a firearm itself is just a type of heat driven piston engine. so this is a heat piston with another heat piston attatched to find the operating pressure of the first heat piston

@zacharyp10

4 жыл бұрын

Hahaha

It would be cool to see it in action as a demo.

@B52Stratofortress1

5 жыл бұрын

The consignor likely wouldn't allow it.

@1990SButter

5 жыл бұрын

i was thinking the same thing i would love to see how much that copper sqaushes

Oh wow, this rifle was made in Imperial Russia. You can see on the markings it says "Imperial Tul's weapon factory". This rifle is literally more than 100 years old.

@TheKemist87

5 жыл бұрын

*Tula's

@polygondwanaland8390

5 жыл бұрын

@@RonJohn63 And interestingly, the testing rig is dated 1914. Someone took a rifle from backstock to convert for cartridge development at Tula.

@shellcracker18

5 жыл бұрын

I have one that was made in 1898

Props to Ian for speeding up the un-screwing of the piston unit.

Thanks! I've seen 'C.U.P.' for a long time, but never knew how it was actually derived.

@jjtomecek1623

5 жыл бұрын

I've seen U.P too ;)

@thetoecutter13

5 жыл бұрын

It's expressed in PSI nowadays in ballistic and reloading information but they still call it CUP.

@petesheppard1709

5 жыл бұрын

@@thetoecutter13 Yep. There are many cautions about getting them mixed up.

That's how copper money was made in imperial Russia

@Bozar91

5 жыл бұрын

The kopyeyka minting machine

@edg6779

5 жыл бұрын

nice

@rwbimbie5854

5 жыл бұрын

CUP pressure test is no longer primary method in Russia. Now, Putin puts his finger over a hole in chamber, and just writes down how much pressure he felt

@George_Doc

5 жыл бұрын

Right,but "Putin" is wrong. Right is "Hyuilo"

@jarinorvanto4301

5 жыл бұрын

From copper to Kopek.

Fun Fact: the receiver markings translate to "Emperor's Tula arms factory".

@DekazetaDKZ

4 жыл бұрын

where im from, "tula" means dick. So this factory would be something like Emperor's dick factory, lmao

@alcedob.5850

4 жыл бұрын

@@DekazetaDKZ Tula is a city in Russia where the oldest Russian firearms factory is located

@theepicgaming5260

4 жыл бұрын

@@alcedob.5850 tulammo #1

It's a Pasta machine, but without the loose falling-of crank Thank you very much for the channel! I knew almost nothing about firearms, and I would never had learned all that incredible secrets behind the science and history. And there you are, handling original prototypes and stuff... One of the best youtubers I know, honestly. Keep it up! 👍👍👍

I always wondered how “CUPs” where calculated, and why they where called “Copper Units”. Thank you.

As a reloader I know what CUP is and have that info in some of my older manuals, but I've never seen a pressure test rifle . So this is a really cool video to watch . In recent reloading manuals PSI is used , and there is information stating the barrel used for load development of each cartridge before the various bullet weights and charges of powder used . Often times the barrel will be a certain manufacture , length and twist rate . But sometimes the barrel used is listed as "test barrel '. A knowledgeable shooter and reloader should inspect the fired brass for signs of overpressure . These are , but not limited to , primers showing signs of backing out of the pocket , primer cratering , primer flattening , excessive case stretch , and such . Interesting story , I was new to reloading and told a relative I could use the spent brass from his 30-30 to reload better than factory ammo . When I received some brass he had recently shot I gave them an inspection before depriming . The primers were set back from the pocket a few thousands of an inch were a bit flattened , and were starting to crater . I asked him how his rifle was shooting . He said as accurately as ever , but the recoil seemed harder . I told him his rifle was shooting too high a pressure . Over the years he cleaned the powder residue from his bore and chamber, but never cleaned for copper fouling . After a thorough cleaning of copper buildup the rifle shot factory ammo with no signs of overpressure , but accuracy was terrible . My handloads shot equally poor groups . Years of improper cleaning had damaged the the rifling just forward of the chamber . The fouling was allowing the bullet into the rifling straight but slowing it's release from the case . Y'all Take note . Clean your guns of powder residue and metal fouling . And if your spent brass , especially the primers , look wonky , have the gun checked out before shooting it anymore . Peace , Out !

@willgillespie4840

Жыл бұрын

I don’t even own a firearm and this was insanely interesting to read. Thank you!!!

The calculation is fairly easy to calculate chamber pressure via this method. Its always interesting to see the change in technology over the years for just taking measurements. Now days strain gauges or piezoelectric sensors are used.

@Thelothuo

5 жыл бұрын

+Mongo63a It's not easy enough to do without a calculator, but yea. I'll bet gauges are better than having to keep track of copper pellets, for sure!

@StevieB8363

5 жыл бұрын

@@Thelothuo Yes... but nowhere near as cool!

@andreambuter6806

4 жыл бұрын

Piezo electronics are also used for amplifying acoustic instruments! Things like guitars and ukeleles. Interesting how the same concepts carry over. In acoustic instruments, the crystal is placed underneath the bridge saddle (where all the downward pressure from the strings goes into the body) and turns the string vibrations into an electric signal and then into an amplifier.

I love this, it is so much more palpable and aesthetic than electronic measurement. Rule of thumb: Everything was cooler in the past except when you got sick or belonged to the lower class.

Gorgeous looking piece and very neat example of early rifle testing.

Very interesting rifle for pressure testing. Thanks for showing this interesting rifle Sir an have a Happy thanksgiving.

Hi welcome to the hydraulic press channel... wait.

@mottee

5 жыл бұрын

This is more like a pneumatic press.

@wallaroo1295

5 жыл бұрын

@@mottee We know, we know... that's not the point.

@clayz1

5 жыл бұрын

I love your icon. Trumpdy Dumpdy’s head with hitler hair.

@legionaryprimedecanus4081

4 жыл бұрын

...with the tsar

If somebody wonders that writings on the reciever in front of the test tube means. It is 'Emperor's/Imperial Munitions Plant of Tula'

@christianhoffmann8607

5 жыл бұрын

i thought it was "Cheeki Breeki"

Awesome video, Ian, thanks. I’ve read about CUP measurements often, but never properly understood them until now. Fairly ingenious device I’d say.

Mosin man, take me by the hand. :D

@dragonbutt

5 жыл бұрын

Something something Oberman

@daneilfranklin

5 жыл бұрын

March to the corner of Siberia is a real trip.

@ArcturusOTE

4 жыл бұрын

Obrez man

@ArcturusOTE

3 жыл бұрын

The voyage to beat the Hapsburgs and Huns is a real trip

What an incredibly cool look into how old school factory testing was done. I bet that rifle would have some stories if it could talk. Thanks for another great video.

This was a awesome video! It is interesting to see the tools people used to us.

Very cool. These types of videos are great

Ian, you've answered a question I've had for some time about CUP, copper units of pressure. Now I know where the term came from and why there's no direct conversion of CUP to PSI. Another day that I learned something. It's a good day, thanks.

The cone on the end of the thread is also the sealing surface, to stop gas leaking up the threads.

Amazing thanks Ian

This was really interesting content. More of this would be appreciated.

Great video! Also congratulations on being able to say “vent gas out of your open hole” not only with a straight face, but also in a legitimate use case!!

This truly my fav channel super interesting I had no idea so much thought went in to gas pressure

A really interesting video, thanks for sharing the CUP process

The stuff I learn. I'll join your patreon. I've never done that before, but the world would be lesser without Forgotten Weapons

Thank you ,Ian .

I always wondered what that meant. Thanks Ian.

Years ago when I was an inspector in a large manufacturing facility hardness was tested using CPU's also by measuring the squish of the copper pellet by smashing into a surface with a round anvil to create a dent to a certain depth. The latter tests used a direct pressure reading but the old charts still listed CPU's for comparison.

I found that really interesting, honesty never thought I would say that about a mosin !

I really like this gun. It's a view into the practicalities of the production of firearms-which is what a lot of us are here for- and it's also a old and interesting gun in beautiful condition, which pleases my soul

The lettering on the rifle: "Imperial (royal) Tula's (town name) gun works" so it was a state owned gun factory.

I would strongly suggest these for anyone just getting into hunting for the first time or into range shooting. Its a fantastic rifle that doesnt break the bank

This is so cool! It’s basically a second year engineering strengths problem to test a useful application!

Very interesting.... I never really thought about exactly how they went about doing things like that.

As glad as I am to live in 2018, I have great respect for people of the past, given what they could achieve with the available resources.

This is the kind of obscure coolness I only get on Forgotten Weapons.

Now that's a rare one, it deserves to be well preserved IMO.

Beautiful rifle.

This is very cool, thank you

Cool setup.

I never thought I'd see a Mosin Nagant on this channel

A fascinating engineering application of using a measured axial deformation of a member with known properties! I imagine these must be relatively accurate at measuring chamber pressure.

Never heard of this. Interesting video.

Would be really cool to shoot it to show us! If possible of course!

@kissarmyrules

5 жыл бұрын

If the firing pin was not removed and/or barrel stopped, it should still theoretically work. Nagants are notoriously tough rifles - my best friend has a Russian Armory Mosin-Nagant, which saw heavy use through both World Wars (paper trails and stampings say this) and only now after a century of hard use, is it starting to show it's age. And let me tell you, despite to being more than 4x my age, it still kicks like a mule and will deafen anyone at the shooting range if they're not wearing protection lol

Of course you can convert,you take the stress deformation graph of copper,you put the permanent deformation ofthe copper on x and you go up with a line of the same inclination of elastic deformation ,when the line intersect the copper graph thats the pressure on the copper,you multiply that for (Area coppercylinder)/(area piston) and you obtain the pressure inside the chamber

@vrisbrianm4720

5 жыл бұрын

Correlation coefficient, not quite a direct conversion of units.

Thats pretty cool. Way to blow my mind

Love these bolt action marathon weeks

Very cool the unit of squish..... brilliant!!

Very interesting, thanks for the education.

I mean so long as you know the Young's modulus of the copper sample then you can calculate the force applied. The force applied divided by the surface area of the chamber should be your chamber pressure

So now I know thanks to you, sir.

You are the Bob Ross of guns!

That is awesome. I've always read about CUP and had a description of how it worked, but honestly I never really 'got' it. Seeing the gear right there on video I'm like, 'well, duh, it's so obvious'.

Daily dose of gun jesus

@Nathan-mg7ho

5 жыл бұрын

Daily dose of needless internet toxicity.

@onyx9943

5 жыл бұрын

@@Nathan-mg7ho daily dose of social justice...

@Nathan-mg7ho

5 жыл бұрын

i guess, im just tired of people being dicks to each other for no apparent reason, call it social justice if you will

@onyx9943

5 жыл бұрын

@@Nathan-mg7ho I get you, bud...

@couchbear6108

5 жыл бұрын

'Consult the book of armaments .."Monty Python and the holy grail

Very informative.

Good to see how thet measured c.u.p. units, thanks

Every 7.62x54 realoader needs one of these

If the testing apparatus is still functional, maybe set up a special one-time Patreon deal so you can put a bid in for it (assuming you don't plan to anyway) so we can get a video of it being used. I'd chip a few $ towards that.

Very cool gun. I never thought about how they measured chamber pressure in those times. What would have been really cool, besides seeing the measurement process of course, would have been a second one of those copper pieces from after the test to get a feeling about how much it shortens. But I'm pretty sure you just didn't have one on hand.

the extra editing was way good

damn close to 1 million subs

CUP and psi have no direct conversion, but are of the same general magnitude; a cartridge developing about 50,000 CUP will develop pressures in psi about the same plus or minus a few thousand. The pressure tables are drawn up with copper cylinders of the type described, which are subjected to known pressure impulses in a pile driver-type device.

For some reason I'm much more drawn to the old school of engineering to the modern day CNC and 3d printing era, I could watch things like this all day

Thank you unnamed soldier who had the foresight to "liberate" all the working parts to this weapon/tool. I would not have had the knowledge to find all the little accompanying parts, especially the copper slug.

@wingracer1614

5 жыл бұрын

I don't recall any US soldiers ever invading the Tula factory. I'd say this was given to Winchester or some such in WWI to help with ammo manufacture.

@poot111111

5 жыл бұрын

@@wingracer1614 Ohh, perhaps. My thoughts were possibly a German soldier and the kit was later sold on the open market.

4:13 heh

@LordDinkerton

5 жыл бұрын

Was looking for a comment to let me know I'm not the only immature one.

@SuperAWaC

5 жыл бұрын

i was immediately reminded of a certain bit in the simpsons..

@Tripp426

5 жыл бұрын

In Imperial Russia, units of copper C U P outside of urinal.

Copper Crushers, as the copper pistons are know were a common way of measuring the in chamber pressure of many rifles. Normally what would happen would that a manufacturer of these 'crusher's' (which came in rods and balls) would sell them as lots with pressure tables (a tarage table), as Ian mentioned, one you have fired your round you would measure the amount of compression on the rod and ball and compare it to your table to give you a pressure measurement. This system had been around since the early 50's and was uses world wide in small arms, even though it began life which large calibre (i.e. artillery pieces). As of 1977 Abderdeen Test Centre delcared that the Copper Crusher Method was no longer suitable for NATO purposes as it could not be measured precisely, therefore nowadays most NATO countries (and many non NATO countries), use Piezoeletric sensors which are quartz based sensors which can provide measurements with accuracy to normally 0.5%. (Depending on how well the equipment has been maintained, whether it is within it's calibration spec and the DAQ system it is attached too is operated by a competent user). Oddly enough you still see copper crushers being used in and around the middle east and normally on shotgun cartridge testing mainly out of habit and that Piezoelectric sensors can be expensive (read approx $2-3k per sensor).

There are two pressure testing Mauser rifles on display in the Museo Historico Militar de Cartagena, Spain.

This is actually kind of simplistically genius, I wouldnt have thought to measure it in such a crude way, but measuring the deformation there would be mathematically super easy

it always amazes me how quickly that much pressure is built up when the powder by its self doesn't burn all that fast

Saw a pressure test Styer M95 at a gun show once. None of the extra toys with it but I regret not going for it

M16 makes neat wounds. Complies With The Geneva Convention. AK-47 makes terrible injuries. Does not comply with the Geneva Convention. The Mosin rifle is the reason for the creation of the Geneva Convention

In -Soviet Russia- the Russian Empire, pressure tester tests you!

@xpavpushka

5 жыл бұрын

Gun pressure tests you!

@TheMadSlavik

5 жыл бұрын

This is a Russian Empire era Mosin-Nagant

@DLBBALL

5 жыл бұрын

TheMadSlavik D:

the whole rifle is a test pressure system, very interesting

Very interesting.

Probably my favorite pressure test rifle I've seen in person was the 1918 Mauser T-Gewehr that the National WWI Museum had on display some years back. Imagine the size of the copper cylinder that thing would crush for pressure testing. I don't think they had the full setup with the actual thread-in piston for it, but the added ring that it would thread into was quite sizable. If I recall correctly it also had it's sights offset to account for the massive ring and piston setup that would have blocked the normal, in-line sights. My best guess as to why that would even be a problem is that they might have been using it for accuracy testing as well.

@USSEnterpriseA1701

5 жыл бұрын

@@jjohnston94 Fair enough, the threaded hole and the reinforcing ring around it seemed pretty beefy though. Either way though, still a neat piece to see. They get some darn nice stuff at that museum and they try to cycle through a lot of what they have in storage in the changing special exhibitions fairly often, makes me glad I live close enough to drop by every so often and see what's on display for the month. I still drool (figuratively, of course) over their really nice example of a Russian contract Winchester 1895 every time I see it.

Man, thats very cool.

Ian..the "copper crushers" method was always interesting to me. I wonder how they determined max..by what number?

Oooh, this tickles my science muscle just the right way...

You can compress that copper plug with any amount of pressure, as long as the surface aero of your piston is big enough.

Seriously?!?! NO DEMO? HOLY CRAP I kept waiting & waiting & dang it Ian you teaser! Very Cool anyways!

That's so cool.

I haven’t watched the video yet but I know this is gonna be great.

MOST INTERESTING !!

very interesting part of gun history

Best oddball rifle seen in person is a 1903 Springfield rifle converted to a .45auto test pistol. On display at Springfield Armory NHS.

You ought to be able to convert it over. You would need a stress/strain curve for compressive strength (most of the available graphs are for tension) but then it should be feasible to convert over to psi.

Correction at 6:01 the bolt is clearly serialized with ㄥ6ㄥㄣ not 4797

a crossover item for collectors of scientific instuments and gun enthusiasts

I'm suddenly inspired to design a percussion-cap nutcracker. It'd make the holidays so much more fun. Maybe style it like a break-action revolver, with a single large chamber and piston in the cylinder to keep pieces from flying everywhere. Grandpa be like, "Son, hand me the Webley and the walnuts."

Ooooo Young’s modulus of copper and deformation energy. Good Engineering topic!!

In the literature you often see pressure as in copper crush units. I disagree that it is not a direct method of reading pressure. Each disc I assume is good for only one test. Many people now use transducers and such I believe are still available for sales to individuals. You got me interested enough that I will probably do some research on it. By the way I had a job as part of an environmental team doing clean up work at a former arsenal on the charles river in Massachusetts. While we were there the workmen discovered a couple of rifles stored in some lockers. One was a springfield bolt action fitted with a huge ring of steel over the chamber area. I could not get close enough to see it very well. It went into an armory vault. I suspect it got destroyed and did not make it to a museum but I am not sure. Hand loaders without pressure transducers frequently will check/measure the bases of fired cartridge cases for signs of pressure. If you get case head expansion and protruded primer cases one had better reduced the powder charge. Here is a brief discussion of rifle pressures: When you look at a loading manual with load data, you will usually see pressure ratings for stated load. Sometimes these are listed in PSI numbers, which most people correctly understand to be Pounds per Square Inch of pressure. However, powder-makers also commonly list pressure in CUP numbers. CUP stands for Copper Unit of Pressure. You may be asking - “What exactly is a CUP, and what is the origin of that unit of measurement?” You may also be wondering - “What’s the difference between CUP pressures and PSI pressures?” On Hodgdon’s Facebook Page, you’ll find answers to these questions. bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/04/copper-unit-pressure-defined-by-hodgdon/

I'd read about crush gauges before, but until I looked closely at the thumbnail, I'd never seen one before. Don't think I've ever clicked faster than when I realized what I was looking at.

Very cool.

this is so epic

Where exactly is that test hole? Right after the case neck shoulder in the free bore?