Thank you for the info. More fasteners in the old work box makes sense for durability. Thank you for sharing.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

No problem, thanks!

Perfect! Love the pictures clarifying each of the allowed cases, and clearly calling out the defitition of approved!

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Glad you liked it! Yes, it was really difficult for me to understand this article until seeing some example photos, so I made sure to include some for viewers.

Superb vid and the humor is a special joy tooo ... love how creative you are with the channel and how informative they all are toooo. Hope your week is starting off right.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Our week is starting off great with your nice comment! Thanks!

The wire safety is good that you brought it up, AND the terminal safety on the device which bolster's the extra screws in the back of the box. As long as the box exterior is well insulated with mud or fire patch, I'm happy.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Greg!

Good video, Bill! Thanks for taking us through the code as well.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

You bet! Thanks Tim!

Good information, sir. One thing that comes to mind that would help is to use one of those right angle drill adapters to put the screw in without having to be at an angle. Still a good idea to cover the screw head with silicone as you did in the video.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Good idea. Thanks Micah!

My suggestion, if you really are worried about code but want more support. GLUE it to the stud. There are plenty of adhesives that work for both plastic and wood. I have screwed plenty of these cheap plastic boxes over the year, sometimes I just screw 1 scrop into the top corner at a 45 at a very shallow angle. I typically pre drill so I make sure I get the depth I want

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Great tip, thanks!

@icevariable9600

2 жыл бұрын

In the new apartment complex we're building, we often come across boxes that have been tweaked by drywallers, so gluing isn't an option. The only thing that can be done is to slap a couple screws in at an angle.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

@@icevariable9600 With "approval", hopefully. :)

Thanks Bill. TR receptacles put even more demand on the box to be strong and firm.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Very true. They can put a lot of stress on the box.

My local inspector makes me put caulk over the screw heads "so that there is no exposed ungrounded metal(the screw) in the electrical box penetrating wood".

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Interesting. Any particular kind of caulk?

@LTVoyager

2 жыл бұрын

And what does that accomplish if the screw is in a wood (i.e., no conductive) stud? I could see logic if the box is screwed to a metal stud.

@rockstopsthetraffic

2 жыл бұрын

Lol.

@pointedspider

2 жыл бұрын

Why. It can't short! 1000x safer with out caulk than a metal box.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

@@pointedspider Good point, metal studs would be very dangerous to add screws into.

Good job Sparky. I think the inspector made a wise interpretation.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

I'll tell her. LOL!

I think that's great Bill, too many rules and regulations are spoiling the industry, I understand there needs to be standards, but not letting the industry expand or making everyone's job harder is putting a damper on things. Good job Sparky Bill.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks John!

Thank you for that information Mr Sparky

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

You bet!

always mounted them this way and inspector was happy to see it. I mean, what's more dangerous here, the very slim chance that a live conductor would come in contact with the screw? or the entire box pulling out of the wall when the customer unplugs an appliance? Especially with some of these tamper proof receptacles, heck they might even push into the wall!

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, the TR receptacles can really grab. And they canmore difficult to pull out as well. I think the AHJ was wise in this case :)

Sometimes the top and bottom tabs can push in and dent the drywall while you push your outlet of switch in, i think installing screws in this way is an excellent way to ensure the box stays secure and not become loose in the wall. Also, a right angle Philips bit works magic in that tight spot ..Great video!

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Kevin. Great tip!

Great video, thank you!

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Glad you liked it!

Drilled a 2 holes directly in the back of an exterior surface mounted metal box and no issues with inspector. I called or emailed in advance to not waste their time and my money on a reinspect. Hopefully your inspectors are responsive like mine. Typically get back within 4 hours and I’m not an electrician.

Excellent video.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

Been doing this for years! Also. I won't hesitate to cut the entire back of that box

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

If you want to mount to the stud, just use the right box (Southwire MSB2G, or Carlon B249B). Both are plastic boxes designed for that very purpose, and will give you a better and cleaner install (those boxes allow devices to sit flush on the drywall).

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

I agree. I actually have links for those boxes in my video description.

@icevariable9600

2 жыл бұрын

Sometimes boxes need to be adjusted after drywallers mess them up. So, removing the boxes, and telling the foreman and owner of the company he should go get the right box simply isn't going to happen. You work with what you got.

@jameskoehler4939

2 жыл бұрын

@@SparkyChannel Awesome. I find the Carlon version to be easier to install, and the extra depth is wonderful when dealing with dimmers and smart devices.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

@@icevariable9600 Yes, and I wanted to demonstrate 314.23(B)(1) so I couldn't use the correct box. I needed one that I had to modify. LOL!

Sparky that works for me bud👍

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Some common sense in the code finally. LOL!

Thanks Bill.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the help on this one Don! I really had trouble figuring out what this article was trying to say. Have a great day!

@donl1410

2 жыл бұрын

@@SparkyChannel You're quite welcome. I'm glad I could contribute favorably. Great demonstration of how "Mounting holes made in the field shall be approved".

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

@@donl1410 The 1st time I read it I said "approved by who"? LOL!

@donl1410

2 жыл бұрын

@@SparkyChannel 😄 👍

Take a look at the UL white book, there are boxes listed with means to do what you are trying to do. Also the manufacturer has not has not had the box tested to see if the side wall can support the box with additional holes drilled. I was an inspector. I would have you get, in writing, approval from the manufacturer or deny your request.

Thanks sparky. Yes good call on the inspectors part. Unfortunately when In the field you’re up against not always ideal situations and have to make do and work with what you have. As long as general code is followed and good workmanship is executed and the installation is clean safe and free of damage to the wiring and won’t cause life and safety issues I’m sorry but NEC Has to step back and allow a local code inspector to make the last shot. NEC is a book life and working conditions are not textbook simple. Thanks for your videos and channel.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, "Mounting holes made in the field shall be approved" was added to 314.23(B)(1) in 2017.

I wire these just like you did, all the time. It would be very helpful if Carlin and other’s did an update to this type of box. It seems these suppliers make new changes all the time. This would help us out in the field tremendously. I always try to install these old work boxes next to a stud for this reason, and then with screws. I have had a few call backs where. Customers were in a hurry and whip extension cords from a distance and pull the whole box out of the wall. THANKS for this Video!

@Sparkeycarp

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly what you just said. The manufacturers need to start stating this is allowed. As well as the people who write the code books. I see these boxes loose all the time.

@ricoludovici2825

2 жыл бұрын

If Carlin put holes in the sides of the box there would be no question. Metal boxes have two holes at the edges. No big deal.

This mode only works when next to a stud. One reason for using an old work box is so they can be placed where needed which is not always next to a stud.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

True. Thanks!

If there’s a poor connection and room for error, that conductor may sit on the exposed screw and it might transfer that heat to the wood. “Plastic hinged screw cap covers”, or bonding the screws to a ground wire might be a good alternative. The Southwire Smart Boxes might be a more suitable method, since the screws sit in a molded recessed part of the box. Caulking the recessed screw locations inside those smart boxes would make it extra nerdy.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

I agree. In fact, I have a link for the Southwire and Arlington 2 screw boxes in my video description. They are better choices.

@JFlywheel

2 жыл бұрын

Sub contractors around here are not going to use Southwire boxes, they are like an extra $1 more which means they can buy an extra Modelo after work by throwing in some drywall screws in a regualr box instead.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

@@JFlywheel Yep, I hear that!

@beerbeforebreakfast

2 жыл бұрын

@@JFlywheel your right on that in pretty much any local. And that is a shame. But so true.

I have done this myself and AHJ is ok with it But all metal parts not carrying current shall be bonded.. I was at a house one time and a cabinet had a support screw that hit only the hot wire and over time was burning the wood of the cabinet ...

as i said on the previous video. use construction adhesive

You used a lath screw with built in washer. A regular screw with with out it would go in farther and less chance of sticking out and thread's showing. It still good idea to seal the head with silicone caulk.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Good point. Well, it's best to keep the AHJ happy! LOL!

Perhaps small interior wood screws put in with a right angle adapter so the head sinks in. Then a dab of silicone on top just for good measure.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Nice!

@ricoludovici2825

2 жыл бұрын

I use screws just like that and drive them with the shaft of my adjustable screwdriver: 12" long and puts the heads almost deal flat.

I think is very safe, all the way on the back corners, great idea, but probably still not okay with the AHJ

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Well, you can ask per 314.23(B)(1). That was new for 2017, BTW.

That works too….and wrap GOOD electrical tape scotch 33 or 88 around the device for the best protection against shorting out…Sparky already does this…

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, the AHJ should have mentioned about wrapping the receptacles as well. She probably just didn't think of it..... Thanks Keith!

I agree that what you did meets the intent of the code. Not withstanding that I probably would just cover the entire screw head with a layer of silicone to prevent any arc potential. That said I have worked in structures with metal boxes so I guess for me this is just a belt and suspeders approach. On another note I have never been a fan of these retrofit boxes. The face flages create a lip on the front and they dont allow the face plate to lay flat. I ussually use a new work box like the one pictured that secures to the front face of the stud and then patch the drywall.

@SparkyChannel

5 ай бұрын

Great tips, thanks!

You could just use Southwire/Madison boxes that already come with screws built in.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

I agree. In fact, I have a link for the Southwire and Arlington 2 screw boxes in my video description. They are better choices.

I agree

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Dave!

the only thing good I have to say about those old metal boxes with the nails driven through the box is that it makes it easy to use diagonal cutters to get the nails loose and get the box out.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Good morning Ken!

@kenbrown2808

2 жыл бұрын

@@SparkyChannel morning.

@rockstopsthetraffic

2 жыл бұрын

Old, meaning what we still use in Canada ;)

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

@@rockstopsthetraffic Oh no....

Would you approve this if it were metal, gangable new/old work boxes that do not have holes on the sides, assuming screws were straight in?

@SparkyChannel

Жыл бұрын

It's not up to me.

Construction adhesive or silicone caulk on the stud side of the box would firm it up and you wouldn't have to modify anything. Just tighten the ears and let the adhesive set-up.

@SparkyChannel

7 ай бұрын

Thanks!

Sparky, thanks. I was always told that metal screws in a plastic box was not allowed as a short in the line could energize that screw head and start a fire in the stud. That is why several companies make plastic boxes with recessed screw mount holes to protect them from being energized. Metal boxes do not have that problem since they are bonded to the ground system if installed correctly. Has there been a change in that?

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

You're correct. The only change has been "Mounting holes made in the field shall be approved" which was added in 2017. 314.23(B)(1)

@MichaelMantion

2 жыл бұрын

I typically just use 1 screw in the top corner near the front. I figure the only wire that might short out is the ground. LOL.

@ZackaryTwiddles1

2 жыл бұрын

Provide one example of a house fire being started by an energized box support screw. Now think of the 70+ years of ungrounded metal BOXES nailed or screwed to studs and give me an example where the energized box started a fire, you can't, I already looked and the chance would be so infinitesimally small as to not be worth protecting against......

@wolfunger8399

2 жыл бұрын

@@ZackaryTwiddles1 The metal boxes are bonded so the current returns to source. I don't care if you have never heard of one...it was the code and I follow the code. The change now makes it acceptable to screw in a plastic box ONLY with the AHJ approval. Most of what the NEC mandates are for safety that often refers to a rare chance and it sucks if that rare chance is your house that burns down. We don't get to decide what parts of the NEC that we will disregard because we think that we have more common sense or a better judgment as to what is acceptable risk for someone else! But you keep doing those searches to help you decide what you are going to ignore of the NEC.

@ZackaryTwiddles1

2 жыл бұрын

@@wolfunger8399 nobody is telling you not to follow Code. Shall be approved doesn't say when, just that the inspector has the option to not approve. The point of referencing the long term affects of continuing to drive the code to try and account for everything that could possibly happen is that it will make installations ridiculously expensive without truly adding any value. At some point you do have to factor in cost to benefit ratio.

Hm? ... In critiquing your work, I feel that the two screws -that were used to further secure the electrical box- should have been adjusted and drilled so that they were both sitting flush to the inner wall of the electrical box. 👍

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

maybe drill the holes a little farther from the to/bottom of box and use a right angle attachment so the screws go in square and seat flat to box so no threads are exposed.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Good idea, thanks!

I'm just going to 3d print my own boxes, Let's see what the NEC says about that.🤔just maybe....

@humbertomacias3239

2 жыл бұрын

🍻🍻🍻

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Get them UL listed and you're in business!

@glasshalffull2930

Жыл бұрын

In my own home, I was going to replace a single box with a two gang old work box. After I cut the nails off the original box, I found that the box was pushing on a water pipe directly behind it and had deflected the box about an inch. Due to Covid, I couldn’t find a ‘shallow’ double gang old work box. So I took the box I had and sawed the back off of half of it and cut a square off of another box and stitched them together with by melting the joint with a soldering iron. Not to code, but was solid and worked great. (Sort of thinking outside the box 😉).

90 degree drill adapter would get the screws in straight.

@SparkyChannel

Жыл бұрын

Good point, thanks!

Right-angle attachment would have done wonders here

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, I agree.

If it was a metal box what difference would it make?

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

If it was wood studs, it would probably be the same.

@jamesalles139

2 жыл бұрын

Screw threads are sharp, and that would still be a problem if insulation got lacerated.

😎🛠️😎🛠️😎

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Ted!

Great video! This is certainly a case where the government is really getting into the microscopic level of things. Of course, if common sense was a little more common, the regulation might not be as necessary! thanks

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Well said! Thanks James!

Nothing a blue sharpie can't fix....and when the inspector happens to pass by this box make sure u start making conversation of his brand new Cadillac that he has parked outside.🙈🙉🙊

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

LOL!

How about superior 33 or 88 electricians tape over screws??

@Stimy42069

2 жыл бұрын

If you put the screws where directed, they have very very very little chance of coming in contact with a receptacle being installed. The silicone mentioned is a good way to cover your butt for inspection. Tape will get old over time, the sticking factor to the wall of the box and the screws is limited, and movement of your wires during install are decently likely to dislodge the tape you placed. Personally I do like to tape around each receptible after they're wired to prevent them from shorting to any metal boxes or fittings used.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

I think it would be a good idea if you can get it to stay on the screw head over time.

@71organicmusic9

2 жыл бұрын

@@SparkyChannel mabey the liquid electrical tape

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

@@71organicmusic9 Hey, great idea!

You know that will help, but the plastic is so flimsy, that this is still likely to fail at some point. I really think a metal box is better for this kind of application. If you really wanted to be overly cautious, you could loop in a ground wire to the screws, and ground it out. Of course, no one is going to do that.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Interesting point. Thanks William!

@bobmazzi7435

Жыл бұрын

I was always taught that a screw for a ground wire could never be used for anything else. In this type of install, even with a metal box that needs to be grounded, if the box worked loose through rough treatment you would lose grounding.

ANything is legal if an inspector doesn't see it🙃.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

LOL! No.......

@JFlywheel

2 жыл бұрын

I feel like this is so true. Or if they don't care as well. Just pointed out I have no way to connect my 240v oven that uses flexible conduit to a single gnage regular blue box. Contractors put a 240v circuit in one of those single gang blue plastic boxes. Inspector told me to just buy a metal lid for the box, which I believe would make the lid and conduit ungrounded (I pointed this out and he said it is fine as long as I connect the ground wires to each other). Probably just need to open wall up and install a proper box myself.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

@@JFlywheel Wow!

@bgarrison67

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah...I see a lot of janky shenanigans on non permitted jobs. I always adhere to nec and local code. Redundancy saves lives.

I understand what you'r attempting to do, that is improve something that appears too flimsy. I always thought any modification of these boxes was verboten, though. I'd use the two ears as provided and be done with it. Perhaps another type of box would better suffice your purpose but this one has already been approved as designed. There's another type available for this application (drywall mount) that's more robust, in my opinion, it consists of two metal tee straps and the box (3 separate pieces) but it's been so long I can't remember the proper name. The straps slide in between the box and drywall, catch the back side of the drywall on the outside of the box and then the two straps have tabs that are then folded over the face of the box from the outside and into the opening of the box. It's what we had before the plastic winged boxes were introduced. "Interior Wall Electrical Box Mounting Brackets" & "Old Work Switch Box Supports"

@illestofdemall13

2 жыл бұрын

Those are often called Madison straps.

@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259

2 жыл бұрын

@@illestofdemall13 Sounds about right. I don't even recall if they can be used to mount plastic boxes, just that we used them for mounting boxes in the case of old work.

@illestofdemall13

2 жыл бұрын

@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 They're used for gangable metal boxes (the kind that you can join together to get as many gangs as you need).

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Interesting, thanks!

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Kris!

AHJ

Many use tape instead of caulk

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

As long as you can get it to stay put that's a great idea.

@marbatz4456

2 жыл бұрын

@@SparkyChannel ..., another use for Duct Tape.

Looks like the screws are more than 1/4" from the back and not really fully shielded with the silicone caulk

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

@funnyfarm5555

Жыл бұрын

@@SparkyChannel The NEC paragraph states 'within 6mm (1/4") of the back or ends of the enclosure'. What is considered the end?

@bobmazzi7435

Жыл бұрын

I read that as if screws are used instead of nails going from side to side of the box. In other words, "through" the box. So, threads could be a major issue on a 4 inch long screw. Putting a round head screw through one side of the box into a stud should not be an issue. Although, I approve of keeping them out of the area where side terminals might contact them. As far as the mfg adding the ability to do this, adding a slanted mounting pad so a round head screw could be installed without needing to caulk would be a great addition. As far as doing this type of install, this would be especially helpful in plaster walls where the wings don't get a good grip.

Hi bill

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Morning Jeremy!

@jeremynguyen2346

2 жыл бұрын

@@SparkyChannel how are you

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

@@jeremynguyen2346 Doing good, thanks!

@jeremynguyen2346

2 жыл бұрын

@@SparkyChannel hello Bill 😀

My inspector wont allow this. Made my remaove last week.

@SparkyChannel

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the info.

I'm a licensed EC and if I were moonlighting as an inspector I would cite 110.3(B) and fail this work.

@SparkyChannel

Жыл бұрын

I'm a licensed EC as well and I think I'd do the same-if I saw it.

@electricalron

Жыл бұрын

@@SparkyChannel still a great video Bill!

@philribaudo4126

6 ай бұрын

Why would you fail this work if it says, it is to code in the NEC book and it was approved like it says in the NEC book?

How bout 6 madison bars too?? Lol

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

don't need to do that , the wings will hold 😅😅😅😅😅😅

@ivoted7199

Жыл бұрын

I wish they made 4 wing boxes.

The painter is going to hate you for using Sharpie. Pencils only please.

@SparkyChannel

2 жыл бұрын

I understand!