I just wanted to thank you both!!! I have been following the Doctor, shifting weight and the the shoulders from opening. It took one swing to know that this concept it going to fine tune my swing!!!!

Here is our original BENDING video that I think makes it pretty clear as well kzread.info/dash/bejne/YmeV0tV7ibzJm6w.html

Really good questions from Brendon and really well going to the details of a golf swing, good job. It would be interesting to hear more detailes mentioned about Badraig Harrington swing changes with Gangas. Seems that there is no end to the debate of the correct sequence and how to feel the shallowing from the top. Don’t the player have a choice which direction his hands are going meaning that dropping those hands too much ends up going under the plane. This player may need to feel to go over the top. Turning your back to the target more or less means different amount of shallowing as well. I think the huge problem in golf industry is the lack of notice of the basic sequence. 90 % golfers suffer slice tendencies because of that. In the basic sequence the hand and the body work seperately and the hand allways speed up from the top. Pros don’t feel that because it’s so automatic. You can’t show to slicer a drill where body and arm go with the same speed!

Brendon, thank you for what you do! Diving deep into the swing that Milo teaches, really clarifies things for those who need it. A local coach teaches the "body follow the arms" swing, but I am a former baseball player and use Milo's method and it's more comfortable for me. Lots of power with the legs, versus the arms. I wonder if you can combine the two and snap the wrists at the right place in the swing to get even more speed through the ball. Haven't tried it. In throwing the ball in baseball, having the fingers come though last and snapping the wrist really accelerates the ball. 👍

Milo knows exactly whats going on what a coach and must be a hell of a player thank u 🏌‍♂️👍👍👍👍👍😎🇦🇺

Thanks!

As posted elsewhere, I've always thought the AMG guys were great, but the early side bend "intention" added to my swing from Milo worked amazing for me. Here's my question: every teacher talks about how little time it takes to get to impact once you start the downswing, hence the importance of the right backswing. Every DTL photo of pros at impact shows various degrees of trail side bend, that C shape and crunching of trail shoulder toward trail hip - Joaquin Niemann hitting driver has most of all. That crunching doesn't happen in 1/100 of a second, it has to start before impact. Knowing that ams can't move as well as or quickly as pros, it seems we might need to start that transition earlier in order to get to the best impact postion. That's what I feel has happened with me. I can see where that could be challenging on less flexible spines like mine, so I'm trying to limit reps and add flexibility work to protect my obliques, but on the course, the results have been huge.

@BEBETTERGOLF

Жыл бұрын

Maybe we should start the transition the instant the club starts back? Then we would never feel rushed

This downswing move helped me better understand what I have to do. I tried it in my hitting area and it really helps dampen my over the top, early extension move.

@MiloLinesGolf

Жыл бұрын

Yes 🙌

B, you have gone to so many different coaches.... why have you avoided the AMG guys? They have all the gears equipment.... why not go, get measured up and see whats up? Would make for some amazing content for the channel.

@psycho8771

Жыл бұрын

Unless the AMG guys give him a discount it costs 5k for a session with them from what I'm reading.

@AR-ke8wg

Жыл бұрын

@@psycho8771 I'm sure he can work something out with re to promoting their channel etc. I'd love to see it.

@AR-ke8wg

Жыл бұрын

@@AthleticMotionGolf hey if it's like that, eff B get me in there. I need it more than him 😉👊 hehe would love to see it. Please make it happen.

@davecohn6407

Жыл бұрын

AMG makes numerous mistakes 1. Use of averages - anyone who analyzes data knows this issue 2. Describing an amount of movement that is anatomically impossible 3. Having a pre selected bias and choosing examples that prove their bias- again a common statistical error more commonly called “ confirmation bias” 4 in accurate placement of sensors yielding incorrect data

@AR-ke8wg

Жыл бұрын

@@davecohn6407 I doubt all that, those guys are legit, defenetly would like to see B look into it. We have seen all the different iterations of Brendan's swing changes.... let's see what it really looks like in 3d capture. Make it happen fellas.

Milo bends his knees and lowers his upper body so much as he turns into downswing and into the ball. For the average Joe, this is such a variable that will introduce so much inconsistency.

@AndrewDCDrummond

Жыл бұрын

I actually think that it’s the other way round, if you can do that lowering it helps shallow the club more and I think that makes an even more consistent strike, a steep angle is death to consistency.

I am of the opinion that as long as you have a little bit of left side bend then the transition will pull you into the right side bend without any concious action and the club won't go OTT/out to in. Adding flexion just adds to the shallowing goodness.

I think it’s what works for you but a bending swing become more and more difficult with age. My body just doesn’t work like it used to and a more arms swing has allowed me to keep on playing good golf without putting too much pressure on an aging body. There are also lots of top golfers who start their swing or have the feeling of starting with the arms. Tiger, Ernie, Justin Rose to name a few. It’s also hard to argue with the AMG response. Milo may be a good coach for the right person, but he has a way to go on how to use Gears.

@MiloLinesGolf

Жыл бұрын

I’ll agree I know very little about using gears. Gears is an excellent tool and at some point I’ll have an indoor setup so I can make use of it as well.

In the downswing the lower spine appears to be in left bend, and upper spine in right bend. As you say this is the confusing part, where we are actually in both bends at the same time. hence the argument

Lateral side bending of the spine is defined as the angle between C7 and S1. I suggest that all of you left lateral side bend close to your maximum range of motion and estimate what angle your head is located relative to the ground and where your head is located relative to your left leg. Adding rotation does not change the orientation of your head relative to left leg

Volume is good!

Try assuming the ideal impact position (that you see the pros making, with forward shaft lean/hips and shoulders open to various extents, and then try to get to that position without increasing flexion/lowering.

Love how brandon always ends up zoning out on something else during every video. Totally missed the fat joke while sifting through his email. I wasn’t sure about milo at first but the more I look at swings and other instruction I think he might have the best understanding of how power is generated. Appreciate the work

The side bend Milo describes is needed to keep the shoulder/chest closed to target as arms drop.

Video really starts at 14:30

I think a major problem here is the difference between the way AGM and Milo define side end. Most golfers think of side bend the way AGM do - side crunch with hips not moving but the head free to move laterally. Milo demonstrates side bend as side crunch with the head AND hips held from moving laterally. Try it - stand in front of the mirror with your head and hips restrained from moving laterally and move your shoulders up and down generating side crunch. During the movement the shoulder girdle structure needs to move with the rib cage. As far as I can tell this is the movement Milo was demonstrating. Even at 73 a significant amount of this movement is possible in my case. Let’s just reserve the term side crunch for this movement pattern and leave side bend for the movement where the head moves laterally. If this side crunch movement is as important in the golf swing as Milo claims he will have made a significant contribution to understanding the kinematics of the swing and GEERS will need to include measurement of it in it’s output.

Is it that gears shows numbers of degrees of side bend compared to horizontal or compared to another plane in your body? If it is compared to horizontal you can easily get confused because side bend in your body can only be calculated by using two body planes.

@MiloLinesGolf

Жыл бұрын

Yes the side bend number in gears is compared to horizontal

I think the confusion is both the AMG guys and Milo are both right, but not taking about the same thing. It is clearly possible to have lateral side bend left in the upper body and in the mid to upper thorax lateral right bend at the same time

@MiloLinesGolf

Жыл бұрын

You said it well the whole issue is we are using different terms for different things. I hadn’t watched many of AMGs videos until recently but after doing so find we actually agree on the majority of how things should work but it’s like we’re speaking 2 different languages.

@davecohn6407

Жыл бұрын

The thorax is the upper part of the body up to the neck . The the thoracic spine comprises the spine above the lumbar spine and below the cervical spine ( neck). Your statement implies that one part of the thoracic spine can lateral spine can side bend to the right while another part is lateral side bending to the left . There is nothing anatomically that permits such movement unless possibly there is some scoliosis

@milolinesgolf Hey Milo, what years were you a collegiate all-american ?

On the gears video mike shows the rib cage numbers. Would that not show the type of thoracic spine numbers milo is talking about? When Milo demonstrates the motion you can tell ribs are going up and down

@MiloLinesGolf

Жыл бұрын

It does but uses different terms than I use.

I’ll say one thing, nobody looked like they lowered the body more in transition than tiger in his prime. it was glaringly different than the rest of the players he was competing against

@patcheszimmerman3842

Жыл бұрын

yes! hulking. like trevino looked

Rib cage sway see on Eric cogorno golf channel and supports Milo lines rib cage movement

@BEBETTERGOLF

Жыл бұрын

I'll check

Hogan did have long arms, and I think he also maybe forced his elbow more towards his right hip as he rotated and had the right elbow beneath the left at impact, which Milo I think mentioned in a video of his (might not have been referring to Hogan). Moe Norman also hinted that this right elbow beneath left at impact was his and Ben's 'secret' to their consistency. That movement also shallows the club, obviously.

@MiloLinesGolf

Жыл бұрын

And the key ingredient to get the trail elbow under and to arrive at impact with it under is right bend.

@gregn7868

Жыл бұрын

If right bend is being employed by Hogan, how can his shoulders be so level at impact? Keep in mind Hogans pelvis was much more left than most modern rotational players. To me those two movements (thoracic side bend + lateral slide) would infer that he is increasing left bend past p5 in the downswing, which seems unlikely to me.

@RCGolf

Жыл бұрын

@@MiloLinesGolf Milo, could it be shoulder blade movement that people are seeing on video and feeling in their transition? They have quite a bit of movement in a powerful golf swing, like lift and retraction. The fascia that connects our glutes to our lats and thus the left hip to the right shoulder will cause this moment when you move the left hip down and around.

@MiloLinesGolf

Жыл бұрын

@@RCGolf it’s all connected for sure and there is some scap loading and unloading in the swing for sure.

@SalleGolfs

Жыл бұрын

@@gregn7868 Hips and shoulders rotate on a different plane, so if hips are rotating ahead of shoulders, the only way for the shoulders to be square and "behind" the hips is with right bend. If you are standing straight up you could rotate hips ahead of shoulders and keep shoulders square without right bend, but to maintain the posture of the golf swing it's necessary.

The AMG video said there was no rt side bend in the dswing--but that there was increased left sidebend! I posted a comment on AMG 3x yesterday with a link to videos showing Tiger, DJ & others showing what Milo is talking about and asking for how Gears would account for that. Not an inflammatory question by any means. All these comments were taken down from the comments section within 30 mins of posting! I have followed AMG for quite a while and even had in-person lessons w/ MIKE and Shawn. If they are going to try and be the Tony Faucci of golf, i.e.. Believe me because I am Science, they shouldn't duck questions!

@gregn7868

Жыл бұрын

That is disappointing that they removed a valid argument... From their perspective they are just following the best data. (by their judgement) Which would require us as golfers/instructors to adjust our explanations to fit the best information available. Remember, right thoracic bend is an explanation of what we see on video, its not a data point.

@dennis1119

Жыл бұрын

@@gregn7868 exactly - milo is talking about upper thoracic and at that pt-between p4 &5, gears is showing NO sdbnd- gears doesn't show rt side bnd till around p6. Milo says his own gears nums don't show what he is doing as rt side bend even when you can visually see it!

@patcheszimmerman3842

Жыл бұрын

@@dennis1119 amg NEVER said that ‘there is no rt side bend in the downswing’

@patcheszimmerman3842

Жыл бұрын

@@MiloLinesGolf you said you purposely used the wrong measurement…. ‘because gears didn’t have the measurement’ of what you were describing……now it’s ‘they purposely used the wrong measurement’ ? c’mon man. givin you the benefit of the doubt until you are able to explain the measurement that you are claiming is lacking in gears and is so vital……and it must be because you’ve now staked your technique and career on it. but….well…. c’mon man

@dennis1119

Жыл бұрын

@@patcheszimmerman3842 you are partly correct--AMG said there was no rt sidebend in the early part of the dswing ( p4-5) only left sidebend; AMG/GEARS recognizes Rt sidebend from p5-6. The real confusion is the early p4-5 segment where Milo shows in his own swing and others that there is an upper thoracic bend that keeps the hands from being thrown out and allows the head to stay centered. For some reason, GEARS shows this move as increased LEFT sidebend not right!

Is Milo’s concept about thoracic bend the old kelvin miahara spine engine lumbar lordosis deal?

@MiloLinesGolf

Жыл бұрын

Some of the concepts definitely originated with him. I don’t believe in lordosis that is the opposite of what should be happening. The whole blow up is about a disagreement of terms and causes and effects. I never set out to personally attack anyone just give my perspective on how to make an athletic swing and here we are.

@patcheszimmerman3842

Жыл бұрын

@@MiloLinesGolf forget about the personal attack. only mrs nancies are having a problem with that. the debate is interesting and necessary

@MiloLinesGolf

Жыл бұрын

@@patcheszimmerman3842 it will continue but where we can actually talk back and forth so no one gets taken out of context or misinterpreted

If you keep your head back on the downswing IE rotate around your head, do you really need to think about side bend! Another thing I don’t like is “using the ground”! Can anyone demonstrate a golf swing that doesn’t use the ground!

Any discount from BBG for Milo Lines site

@MiloLinesGolf

Жыл бұрын

Yes check the description for code I think it bebettermilo

@markbarnabe2305

Жыл бұрын

@@MiloLinesGolf sorry heard it at the end of the video

All I’ll say is that AMG is the gold standard when it comes to Gears interpretation. You cannot argue with the numbers they collect from the Tour pros they measure. It’s objective fact. I felt bad that Milo was called out in the AMG video, but my understanding was that they were simply correcting Milo’s misreading of the Gears data. I enjoy Milo’s instructional videos, but misinterpreting Gears data to back up the feels in his swing is not good, and should be corrected. My two cents.

@ge8382

Жыл бұрын

I think he called them out first, not as specific as amg did… but he did.

@temporarystranger95

Жыл бұрын

@@ge8382 I did not know. Then what AMG did was fair game. Sorry, Milo. Data is data, and you have to interpret correctly, which he apparently failed to do. You don’t call out the good standard unless you are 100% sure of your findings.

@ge8382

Жыл бұрын

Well, I see that you didn’t call out their name but I immediately connected your video to AMG and they did the same. It’s like saying ‘the spaniard with the short backswing’ and then claiming you didn’t call out Rambo. Don’t get me wrong, I am a subscriber to your channel and like most of your stuff. I like the ‘pressure the arms down’ feeling by Pete Cowen so I agree with AMG on this one and as far as I can tell they have the correct data to back it up.

The AMG guys know how to read gears data. This is an obvious example of feel and real not being the same.

@jaydubeck3435

Жыл бұрын

@@MiloLinesGolf Yeah ok Milo what did they misrepresent about your video? That you didn't know the difference of forward bend and side bend, using the wrong graphs to try to prove AMG were wrong about the bends and the arm movements. They used your exact words from the video and showed that you are totally incorrect. You used Gears to prove your point and dispute theirs ...but you didn't have a clue how to read the data from Gears, that was done purposely on your part ... so keep digging that hole Milo your credibility is sinking faster than the TITANIC!

@jaydubeck3435

Жыл бұрын

@@MiloLinesGolf Show that in a video. The arms still lower regardless.

@davecohn6407

Жыл бұрын

Your statement presumes that the readings derived from Gears are correctly describing the correct anatomical movements . I would argue that some of readings are incorrect

@davecohn6407

Жыл бұрын

Because of the vertical orientation of the facets ( joints ) of the lumbar spine , it is capable of little lateral side bend . Lateral side bend , which is defined as C7 movingly towards S1 is mostly in the thoracic spine .

I guess the AMG video is hard to counter, they pretty much clarified everything. Also the best coaches in the world (pete cowen eg) are far more focused on the hands. Having people bending and rotating is just very hard, not necessarily wrong imo, just difficult to achieve.

@teccypoo

Жыл бұрын

Here is my 2 cents if you don’t mind. AMG is an absolute gift but I think two things are possible here. 1. AMG doesn’t quite understand what milo is saying or 2. It maybe possible that AMG is starting to realise milo had glimpsed something important conceptually that they hadn’t understood as deeply or as early . Hear me out on this 2nd possibility. I’m thinking AMG are smart guys and so naturally realised they were wrong but not wanting to look bad just added different terminology (a lot of jargon, graphics and “technoglitz” to Milo’s superior conceptual understanding in an attempt to to claim ownership of milos understanding and claim “victory”. In reality tho That amg video really just felt in someways like a weak rebranding of milos key point which is how to properly rotate to shallow. Perhaps amg used better terminology perhaps not but in terms of the actual substance of shallowing thru body motion the tone of it was strongly contradictory to their previous videos and more in line with milos. They still haven’t fully understood milo‘ s concepts and to be fair milo could do a better job of explaining them. To sum up What milo has done is seen further on the crucial point of how to rotate and lower whilst the AMG advice on lowering (see they’re video on body steepening arm shallowing) could really easily be interpreted as pulling down with the arms and is bad pedagogy. AMG do great work and probably want to be number one. So my guess is they thought by just saying milo uses the wrong words they could trick their audience and perhaps themselves that they were right all along. It’s natural human fragility. Here is a shoddy Analogy i feel might be of use. I feel it’s like a kid at school has done a poor copy of the dux’s essay and then start saying they are the better student cos “ look the dux made a few spelling errors. Therefore we are smarter and should get all the credit not just for the spelling but the original idea too despite the fact in our first draft we argued the opposite. “. A collab tho would be great as AMG could sharpen milo’s slightly sloppy terminology which doesn’t do justice to how deep his understanding is.

@teccypoo

Жыл бұрын

Here is a better analogy. This whole debate Also feels like an argument about traffic jams that I had with my mum once. She explained why my argument about the root cause of traffic Jams was conceptually in error. I knew she was right and had made a leap I hadn’t seen. Instead of crediting her for her more profound understanding I leaped on some trivial fact that she had wrong about speed limits thereby shifting the goalposts of the original argument and then in desperation I tried to claim that by winning this irrelevant side point she’s an idiot and I thereby win the entire debate. So basically in this instance milo would be my mother and AMG would be me 😂

PLEASE. give me a task. Not focus on my body parts, which is impossible and detrimental to do in .5 sec

Brandon I message you and said Milo’s way I would be in traction but I was wrong after watching and listening to Moe Norman he said what Milo is saying about sitting down but then he said what I think is the key and Greg Norman said it too and if you watch Milo he is doing it but not explaining it because he is concentrating on side bend but Moe and Greg said at the top when you start coming down bend your left knee and pointed to the hole this will cause you to sit down the club will be in the slot too rip it . By bending your left knee depending how much you can go down most likely not as much as Milo or a guy in their 20’s but you will not be in tilt and I did that back to the hole bring the arms down the Justin Rose way it worked for a short while then I had problems.

@MiloLinesGolf

Жыл бұрын

Our swings definitely change a little as we age.

@danviccaro3920

Жыл бұрын

@@MiloLinesGolf I do t have the flexibility at 60 but I can still come close and you were right another thing Milo Moe Norman talked about bringing his right elbow right into his body actually touching what are your thoughts ? Thanks for responding.

I will repeat what I have stated time and time again There is no difference in the definition of side bending or any body movement .Milo is completely wrong in implying that there are differences The ONLY definition of side bending or any body movement is the well known and accepted ANATOMICAL definition

This is what you get when a baseball player attempts to be an “expert” in 3D golf swing analysis 😂 Run

Audio needs to be improved. The volume, is very low!!!!

Some have commented that AMG and Milo have different definitions of lateral side bend . The ONLY accurate definition is one in which is consistent with basic anatomy , the angle from C7 to S1. If Milo’s or AMG definition differs from this definition , then it is wrong plain and simple

@ironsideeve2955

Жыл бұрын

Source?

Why won't Milo just go to AMG and see for himself? This is just gonna be more confusion for people, when we have different coaches going against each other. Not good

@gregn7868

Жыл бұрын

Because they fundamentally disagree. If there is/isn't right thoracic bend before p5 it completely ruins their current explanation of the downswing. These instructors are arguing over reality not feel.

@Robin-Cj

Жыл бұрын

@@gregn7868 yes but they would actually see Milos Numbers and so would he himself IF he went there and geared up right? Maybe Milo is wrong about what he is actually doing, not saying he is, but he might be.

@gregn7868

Жыл бұрын

@@Robin-Cj Correct me if I'm wrong, but think Milo has been measured on Gears and it was referenced in AMG's video. Gears said that he didn't right side bend until after left arm parallel in the downswing and was nowhere near max right side bend.

@Robin-Cj

Жыл бұрын

@@MiloLinesGolf never told you you are wrong, there are many ways to swing a golf club, just curious 😄

@gregn7868

Жыл бұрын

@@MiloLinesGolf I've never seen or been in a room with gears like most of us. Do you know where the "tracking points" on the vest are located? To my understanding the lumbar spine doesn't or shouldn't tilt side to side in normal movement in general. Most of the appearance of "side bend" excluding the thoracic region would be pelvis tilt (from the hips)

Since Matt Wolfe is better than Milo should we all swing like Wolfe? Maybe since there are so many crappy Wolfe copy cat swings Matt should change his swing.

It's all here ! Brendon doesn't seem to follow /understand your simple clear sequence logic

Once again Brandon is making things so overcomplicated and taking a swing something that happens so quick and trying to break it down to certain steps that really prevent people from getting better i feel bad for Milo someone who is simply trying to help people be better golf needs to do better this is ridiculous 👎

@MiloLinesGolf

Жыл бұрын

I have helped thousands of golfers improve with this pattern, alongside their specific needs. Just because we are looking at it more in detail doesn't mean it's not happening or not helping people get better.

@jamaelmckinney7247

Жыл бұрын

@@MiloLinesGolf I'm sorry my love that was my point that I agree you're just trying to help people I just didn't appreciate Brendan putting one teaching methods verse another is always going to be differences as I was going to be opinions and I like what you've been teaching keep up the good work

@jamaelmckinney7247

Жыл бұрын

Meant (Milo) sorry 😂

Gee get to the point quickly make he case and then pose your opinion.