23 EDO is the Can't-Can't

@JoBot__

10 ай бұрын

Huh, it does sound to be closer to a minor key than a major key. 🤔

@FranciumMusic

10 ай бұрын

@@JoBot__ You're correct. That's because the fifth in 23edo is so flat, that the functions are inversed. A sharp flattens the note and a flat sharpens it. 16edo does it too. This inversion thing is called Mavila temperament after a village in Mosambique. The 135/128 comma is tempered out instead of 81/80 comma. (edited because I made a mistake) If you want more information, look up this site: en.xen.wiki/w/Mavila_temperament It also contains links to listening examples. I also do an ongoing series, called "Mavila Experiments" because I was heavily inspired by Mike Battaglia's "The Mavila Experiments". Here is the playlist: kzread.info/head/PLLZE7hMjEXRZI50JGo2JwlJe-LEvIkwGj

@JTBarrentine

10 ай бұрын

@@FranciumMusic would you ever consider making videos going more in-depth about the division of octaves and how equally dividing an octave more or less affects the musical function? Pretty niche topic, but I think it'd be really cool.

@FranciumMusic

10 ай бұрын

That's a nice idea which I didn't consider for longer than a few seconds. There are some people going in depth about specific EDOs, but the only ones I can recall now are Supahstar Saga going in depth about 19edo and Zhea Erose going in depth about 31edo. Besides of the xenwiki pages and some people talking about specific ideas in specific tunings I don't know anyone really who does videos about microtonal music theory. Also you might consider that it would be much work for a person to do. And I don't know if I can explain stuff well enough.

@JTBarrentine

10 ай бұрын

@@FranciumMusic understandable, that would be quite the undertaking! I appreciate the reply, I'll have to check out these resources.

I can't help but hear it as an out of tune piano, like a well used one at a bar or something.

@InventorZahran

10 ай бұрын

19, 31, and 26EDO definitely have that feel!

@David_K_Booth

10 ай бұрын

i think Francium knows that in meatspace, pianos are not tuned to equal temperament. That's so mean. Even the first example sounds out of tune. Care to add an alternative version using a just intonation?

@nandocordeiro5853

6 ай бұрын

​@@David_K_Boothstill sounds out of tune bro

@nnoxie.a

Күн бұрын

@@David_K_Boothit's mean... meanTONE (sorry for this terrible joke)

This makes me want to write Fugue and Cantata for A Broken Down Ice Cream Truck

This honestly just sounds like the Can-Can but it slowly gets more depressed then 7edo hits and its the French Revolution.

@normanclatcher

10 ай бұрын

Orpheus in the Underworld ↘️ Orpheus on Bastille Day

@adamferguson1064

10 ай бұрын

@@normanclatcherOrpheus in Moscow

7 edo sounds really melancholic and filled with decades of anger and despair it somehow is the _right_ ammount of out of tune to really convey those emotions

As someone with perfect pitch, I was reaching for my paper brown bag to try and grasp for life with when we got to 5 EDO

@FranciumMusic

10 ай бұрын

That's understandable. It is complicated, quite impossible for someone with perfect pitch, to hear xenharmonic music if you didn't grow up with it.

@Edwing77

10 ай бұрын

If it means anything to you, I don't have perfect pitch, in fact I'm not even a musician; however, deeply out of tune these and particularly this one sound to me too - which I guess they could be said to, relatively to what we're used to; no worries though, I do grasp the idea, and while it's great for illustration to have some music that one knows how it's "supposed to" sound, one might not do these alternative numbers of division of octaves complete justice other than with pieces composed for / in them... FWIW, 23EDO sounds even worse 😅

@SuperRhyolite

10 ай бұрын

same this was a painful experience lol

@_Pike

10 ай бұрын

Shut up

@aptaltruist

10 ай бұрын

I have it too, it pains me because it just doesn't feel right, it feels like my mind is skewed and everything I hear is wrong, since I only knew the most common/western tunings and notes.

The distinction between major and minor seems to be neutralized in 7edo. It's almost unsettling.

@FranciumMusic

10 ай бұрын

It is neutralised in 7edo. Major and minor don't exist in this tuning system.

@havokmusicinc

10 ай бұрын

yes, with only 7 equally spaced notes there is no distinction between half and whole steps, meaning no distinction between major or minor or any of the modes (like the mixolydian part). 7edo is a nice system for playing pentatonic music though

@blockmath8257

10 ай бұрын

@@havokmusicinc or heptonic music

perfect pitch and a fascination with microtonal music has left me cringing and smiling in equal.measure while watching this

@FranciumMusic

10 ай бұрын

Wait, what do you mean by this? These two things in one person? If so, then I am one of these people, even if I don't say so often anymore that I have perfect pitch, it isn't as perfect as the name suggests.

@AndreaColombo-fx1wh

10 ай бұрын

​@@FranciumMusichow did you do this? I can't do that in Musescore!

@TristinBailey

10 ай бұрын

@@AndreaColombo-fx1wh If you open the Inspector (either through the View tab on the toolbar or by pressing F8) you can adjust the tuning of each individual note. Also, you can select multiple notes at once by holding Ctrl and clicking the ones you want, rather than manually changing every single pitch-class by the same amount individually.

Plot twist: 5 edo is just a normal recording of a school piano that hasn't been tuned in 15 years

@Fire_Axus

Ай бұрын

what are the chances?

i have perfect pitch and was raised on soviet classical. i was dying by 22 EDO. this is something i can only watch one time 😭

@thetageist

10 ай бұрын

Heh, nice username. I also like Shostakovich's work.

@poisonrozzie

9 ай бұрын

It's natural 😅

@Fire_Axus

Ай бұрын

stop getting so emotional

Huh, great idea of using a well-known song for comparing the sounds of different tuning systems

@FranciumMusic

10 ай бұрын

Thank you.

@cubicinfinity2

10 ай бұрын

It's a limited practice though. This is a song specifically written for 12edo. So, tunings like 19 and 31 are hardly different from the original and some others like 23 and 5 stand out more.

@ConvincingPeople

2 ай бұрын

@@cubicinfinity2I think the meantones are pretty noticeably different. The softened leading tone, particularly where it gets pushed full on into neutral interval territory in 19, is pretty striking and weird when juxtaposed against 12. It's not *as* weird as a tuning like 27, let alone the really outré ones, but something definitely feels weird about it, particularly with this sharp, bright MIDI piano timbre.

Funnily enough, 5edo and 7edo both tend to sound very nice and melodic imo if used in the right context. To me, a balafon tuned in 7edo has such a calm and centered sound, so it’s very interesting to juxtapose that to the feel it has in a busier arrangement, and with a piano sound. Fascinating stuff!

@gelo1238

10 ай бұрын

i have no idea what you are talking about

@cubicinfinity2

10 ай бұрын

7edo is still completely recognizable because the song is diatonic.

@Gnurklesquimp2

3 ай бұрын

They show how you can sound very colorful with very few notes too. Of course, leaving out notes is the way to get a bunch of particular colors to begin with. A minor chord with a sharp 6 doesn't have to imply a dorian scale at all, it can even stand completely on it's own with other chords using the same intervals only, or combined with certain ''exotic'' scales to great effect etc. I do love my rich modes packed full of different colors, though.

**cries in near-perfect pitch**

@coryfreake9070

10 ай бұрын

Wouldn't that just be a moan?

@FranciumMusic

10 ай бұрын

I feel so sorry for you. And I know this feeling way too well. It seems awful at first but your brain can accommodate to it. Then it doesn't seem bad anymore.

@coryfreake9070

10 ай бұрын

@@_Pike I know a few people like that.

@Fire_Axus

Ай бұрын

stop getting so emotional

7edo feels like sitting in a room that’s on fire

@FranciumMusic

9 ай бұрын

"This is fine."

OK so legitimately, when listening to this, I did not hear the shift to 31edo at all. It's been so normalised to my ears that it doesn't sound "microtonal" to me at all.

@squaddiepete

10 ай бұрын

I felt it only subtly differently at first, too. Until it shifted key from D to G major. If I were a husky, I'd be howling at this stage!

@havokmusicinc

10 ай бұрын

31 is the logical extension of meantone tuning and is a very good fit for most western music, as it makes many of the chords we use sound great. It starts to fall apart with very chromatic music though.

@mintegral1719

7 ай бұрын

Well yeah, it has a close approximation of the diatonic scale. I think you could put most 12edo music into 31 and very few people would notice.

7edo sounds like your sad but someone is tickling your neck

couldn't hear anything until around 34 edo or whatever, in other words, I couldn't hear the detuning until it was right in my face xD

I don't even have perfect pitch and that was still one of the most painful things I've ever listened to. 10/10 would torture myself again.

@Fire_Axus

Ай бұрын

real

I would be interested in the tunings common in the EDO period of Japan.

The moment 19edo hit, I got that feeling where "something isn't quite right, but I don't know what it is or how to fix it"

@JustAHuman-gb5go

9 ай бұрын

For me, it was "It's wrong, but I like it this way..."

@Fire_Axus

Ай бұрын

your feelings were irrational

7edo!!!, such a banger!!!!, i will use this in my funeral

@M4P4CHE

10 ай бұрын

put the speed to 0.5 and you will ear something special

@BarhamaniacsThePineapple4300

10 ай бұрын

At 0.5 speed I hear 12TET Can Can

@tuipaopao

10 ай бұрын

Funnily, Thai traditional music which is also in 7EDO is regularly used in funerals.

@Nonkel_Jef

10 ай бұрын

@@M4P4CHE 1.5x is the best speed

This is why no tuning system is superior to any other. Each tuning system works best for music that was written for it, and music written for a tuning system can work within the constraints that it imposes to create the best possible results.

I actually got pain in the middle of my forehead listening to this

is this what the CIA uses to torture people with perfect pitch?

@FranciumMusic

10 ай бұрын

I asked myself too if microtonal music was used for torture. Then years later I was bored and fascinated by it enough to go through it.

I like how 23 and 7 EDO sound more minory. I've written my own program that takes a midi file as an input and converts it to any EDO. I've noticed that a major piece in 7 EDO is practically converted to minor and vice versa.

@InventorZahran

10 ай бұрын

I wonder why it works that way...

@acactus2190

10 ай бұрын

Yeah the b sounds closer to a b flat and the c sounds closer to a c natural lol

@mintegral1719

7 ай бұрын

@@InventorZahran OP explained why it works that way in reply to another comment here, I'm honestly not smart enough to paraphrase it though

@romeolz

5 ай бұрын

​@@mintegral1719in 23edo the fifths are so flat that 4 stacked fifths make a minor third instead of a major one, in 7edo 4 fifths make a neutral third

@benjaminmargulies1853

5 ай бұрын

@@romeolz 7 edo is neutral

This makes me feel like I'm dying... I listened to it twice.

Gradual descent into insanity for both performer and listener!

i've always been interested in microtonality! this is a really good video to help me start to grasp it a little! i grew up with western music theory, so my knowledge of tone is severely limited in regards to the endless possibilities. this feels like a good way for me to start removing that limit! subscribed!

@FranciumMusic

10 ай бұрын

Thank you!

@iwbmo

10 ай бұрын

subscribing!? good idea

@iLikeTheUDK

3 ай бұрын

You know Zhea Erose? She's been writing almost exclusively in nonstandard tuning systems for the past decade or so

This is what it’s like to practice on any non-electric piano in a university music building.

Not sure why I was recommended this but I'm very glad I was :)

5edo sounds like when I'm trying to learn a song by ear and I get the key completely wrong

@YCbCr

5 ай бұрын

Feels like navigating around every second stuck key on a dilapidated school piano. :D

Congratulations for composing something in 248971642920edo!

@FranciumMusic

10 ай бұрын

Thank you! This is the great thing about tuning comparisons.

31edo works really nicely lol

@mintegral1719

7 ай бұрын

The major 3rds are more in tune than 12edo :)

Quite interesting! Though I wonder - why is it that the 23EDO sounds closer to a minor key? [EDIT - I see this explained in previous comments now. Quite an interesting phenomenon here!]

Omg i can’t believe how 12edo-like the 17edo one sounded

@FranciumMusic

10 ай бұрын

That's interesting... Maybe this perception stems from the 17edo version being between the 22edo and 27edo versions, compared to these two 17edo sounds mostly like 12edo. For me, the major thirds are way too sharp for saying that the 17edo sounds like 12edo.

@curtisadams6048

10 ай бұрын

I was surprised that it changed less in 17 than in 22. I guess it's that the melody is more important than the harmony.

@candyman4769

10 ай бұрын

@@curtisadams6048 I think the difference has to do with the ratios, as the differences between notes in 22 edo and 12 edo cycle every half an octave, making it impossible to play thirds and sixths while 17/12 has every other note match.

@CompactStar

3 ай бұрын

It is honestly not much further from 12edo than 19edo, it's just going in the sharper direction so you can't call it "meantone", remembering that 12edo is particularly sharp (but not 100% inaccurate) as a meantone tuning.

Very interesting concept!

@FranciumMusic

10 ай бұрын

Thanks!

what if you removed the chords in 5edo, since it doesn't really have chords

I like how it gets minor by the end

Poor 5edo, it didn't even stand a chance

my favorite was definitely 31edo. Interesting how in 17edo, how sharp the thirds are and the step mi-fa is so d narrow compared to e.g., 19edo.

@duncanw9901

10 ай бұрын

I actually like 17edo. It seems bluesy to me; Xotla uses it for a lot of his compositions.

@InventorZahran

10 ай бұрын

To me at least, 31EDO sounded brighter and "more major" than 12TET!

@acactus2190

10 ай бұрын

@@InventorZahranprob because the notes with accidental are slightly raised in pitch and farther apart from the natural notes

@mintegral1719

7 ай бұрын

​@@InventorZahran 31edo has a major 3rd that's way more in tune (closer to 5:4 that is) than 12edo's, that's why! It sounds better to me too :)

@InventorZahran

7 ай бұрын

@@mintegral1719 It's almost "too harmonious to be true", like a dessert with an uncannily satisfying texture and flavor.

VERY COOL

@FranciumMusic

10 ай бұрын

Thank you :)

It's like listening to the sound of an Ice Cream truck as the acid starts to hit....

as someone with perfect pitch, this hurts me in more ways than i could have ever anticipated

Everyone’s grandma has a piano that sounds like this

Next: Can Can in meantone, Pythagorean tuning, and just intonation

@havokmusicinc

10 ай бұрын

31 is basically meantone already

@YoVariable

7 ай бұрын

19 is also meantone, but approximately 1/3-comma meantone

23edo has a really "soviet rubble" vibe to it

A: You should listen to "Dementia" and really immerse into it B: That piece is like 6 hours long, got no time for it. A: Well, here is a 10-minute alternative

@space__idklmao

9 ай бұрын

Everywhere at the End of Time?

To those with perfect pitch - why does this bother you? I thought it's like seeing colors, being able to recognize blue from yellow, etc. I can hear the differences, but I don't mind, it just sounds different, not necessarily bad.

@romeolz

5 ай бұрын

It's like every single color has changed places and also you're on lsd

My ears hurt. Do it again.

@normanclatcher

10 ай бұрын

I'm not sure if I'm exactly _surprised_ to see you over here or not, but, uh, hey! 👋😅

5 edo is like a

@wigwagstudios2474

10 ай бұрын

7 edo is arabic

@madhavraghu

10 ай бұрын

so true, 5 edo is like a

@phiiicubed

10 ай бұрын

5 edo is like a

The early meantones sounded slightly off, but close enough that you could probably convince me it was always like that. Superpyths, not so much. By 5, it's still recognisable, but the 0 cent intervals really screw with it. 26 sounds almost superpyth-ish in terms of how off it is, despite being the exact opposite. 23 is just not the can-can, it's like 5 but worse. 7 should be really terrible, but after 5, 26 and 23, it's an improvement.

This stings, it truly stings. This is perfect pitch abuse

@whale4304

10 ай бұрын

Even as someone with very much not perfect pitch, it still hurts.

@poisonrozzie

9 ай бұрын

It didn't feel like torture, in my case. It was absolutely fascinating 😁. I also wanted to test my own pitch sensitivity 😅...

This is genuinely the most fun microtonal music I've heard in a long while. Loved it!

I love having relative pitch cause it mean I only know something is horribly wrong but I can still sort of mostly get used to it.

I really hope every video like this would display something like a basic "chromatic scale", if possible, underneath the currently played tuning. Would help to see what notation is used!

This sounds pretty good. Especially 23 and 7 EDO.

@alexpotts6520

10 ай бұрын

7 sounds really Japanese

i hear ever different colors for each version of this, ranging from slightly different than the original to absolutely fucked up and it both scares me and fascinates me oh also my head hurts now

When your toy keyboard is running out of battery

i would kill for an extended 23EDO version. please im begging

@FranciumMusic

9 ай бұрын

I already did that: kzread.info/dash/bejne/pmF12bOid93df5M.html

i couldnt actually notice it for abit but now i do 😭😭

If you can tell the degree to which everything is off versus your memory of the song by the first iteration does that mean you have perfect pitch

I understand almost nothing of music theory, and I found this a very interesting experience. I don't know how to describe it, but as the music was advancing into different edos, it started sounding to me as if there was a kind of wave under the sound, a "wooom-wooom-wooom-wooom" that stays kind of constant through each edo, then changes as the edo changes. I imagine that, if I were to become used to these microtonal versions, I'd at some point start noticing the signature "wooom-wooom" underlying standard music that I currently don't due to familiarity (the fish not noticing the water it swims in) as its own distinctive thing too.

@danielamdurer1779

9 ай бұрын

It sounds like you're talking about beating, in which case, the place to spot it in 12edo (standard tuning) is in the thirds and sixths, although the feeling is less wooom-wooom and more wawawawawa. For wooom-wooom, that's fourths and fifths, although 12edo is good enough at those that you don't hear it unless you're looking for it.

@AlexanderGieg

9 ай бұрын

@@danielamdurer1779 Maybe? I'm not sure because it doesn't really follow anything I can notice as part of the music itself. It's slow and takes about 1 second to increase and decrease in intensity, and the way it sounds is distinct with each edo.

I dont know what an EDO is, but my brain is now liquid. Tortured.

@mintegral1719

7 ай бұрын

Equal Divisions of the Octave Pretty much all of western music divides the octave into 12 notes, but there's no law saying you can't use other divisions instead :)

i thought i was paying attention, and then 23edo

31edo sounded OK to me

Tbh after hearing this. I think i need to pour bleach into my ears. To the perfect pitch people and other musicians you know what im talking about.

7 edo sounds fricking amazing

5:31 Mr. Incredible becoming uncanny 💀

I love these 😲❤ The 7edo one is my favorite 😌 -Carmen

@FranciumMusic

7 ай бұрын

I had a very strong suspicion that you were Carmen since I've read that 7edo is your favourite. And I was right! Hello and welcome, Carmen! Nice to see you here! 💜👋

@bragtime1052

7 күн бұрын

​@@FranciumMusic😀 😊👋

Honestly most of these were perfectly bearable aside from 5, 23, and 7 (although even 7 wasnt that bad- i honestly started enjoying it around 8:40) Side note, there seems to be a lot of people with perfect pitch in this comment section. Interesting

@acactus2190

10 ай бұрын

31 edo was the worst for me for some reason.

@poisonrozzie

9 ай бұрын

Microtones feel so odd compared to our usual 12-semitones, so we want to experience it and see for ourselves 🤩

@Francium : Bravo! A great tour-de-force using a familiar piece to demonstrate the different moods (ref. Ivor Darreg) of various EDOs. I like the way you ordered the tunings in such a way that for this piece the earlier ones sound more "normal"/"right", and gradually progress to more "weird"/"wrong".

@FranciumMusic

5 ай бұрын

Thank you very much!

Some of these sound fantastic, and some sound like demented music boxes. Super cool.

23 edo is my fav, it's listenable and sounds like perhaps a tense chase theme across rooftops in Paris

Made me feel like my nervous system is collapsing in on itself🤢

It slowly turns to a minor key lol

This is super cool!! What does the edo mean?

Lol thank you so much for the shoutout!!!!!! Now make another Xenharmonic Can Can at a faster tempo with random voice samples in it (:3)

@FranciumMusic

10 ай бұрын

You're welcome! For me it's necessary to give shoutouts to people who gave me some ideas. I want to be as transparent as possible. I'll let you do the covers with random voice samples in it. The voice samples that I have are from myself and my friends plus they aren't so chaotic as yours. Also I don't know how to manipulate the pitch in REAPER without them sounding awful yet.

@Userminusone

10 ай бұрын

@@FranciumMusic That's fair haha

This is awesome.

the dude with "perfect pitch": THIS SONG IS OUT OF TUNE!!! chads: MMMM MIKROTONE

I dunno what ##EDO is, but hearing through all of these, I think I sing in 26EDO.

@FranciumMusic

10 ай бұрын

EDO stands for Equally Divided Octave. Sometimes you see also ed2, that is the same, since the ratio 2/1 is an octave. There are many ways to do microtonal music.

@gaopinghu7332

10 ай бұрын

​@@FranciumMusicwhat is the difference between tet and edo?

@cubicinfinity2

10 ай бұрын

@@gaopinghu7332 It's basically the same. I used to say TET, but EDO has better SEO as that gets used more often around here.

@qazw5414

10 ай бұрын

@@gaopinghu7332they're different names for the same thing. they are synonyms

@423adriana

9 ай бұрын

​@@gaopinghu7332standardly, TET is only used for 12

how do you do microtonals so good

my descent into madness is complete

27edo sounds like if I was listening to the Can-Can on a 10 hour flight

How the hell did the 23 EDO switch it to minor??!!!

@YoVariable

7 ай бұрын

The fifth is so flat in 23 EDO that traditional chord functions are reversed: major becomes minor and minor becomes major. This is called mavila temperament.

7edo sounds like an ice cream truck breaking down.

Nightmare fuel

Oh my god my EARS. 5 EDO is going to be the END of me.

23edo is so dramatic amazing

@jackweslycamacho8982

9 ай бұрын

7edo sounds desperate, like the piano's grasping for air

Can-can but it gets progressively cursed. *happy Wyschnegradsky noises*

Orpheus and the Underworld

@alanaspurling6469

9 ай бұрын

5-EDO is an even temperament Gamelan…

Last chord sounds like a landline ringing.

22edo sounds like the doppler effect forever

31edo and 5edo sounded really nice to me.

23 edo is the can can but all the dancers are carrying knives and have sharp pointy shoes on

this just illustrates how most of western music is built around 12 tet. The piece sounded wonky melodically because western music took advantage of 12 tet's whole step (major second) and the fact that it was only 4 cents off and built around that melodically. Not many edos have a good whole step (31tet has -10 cents, 19 tet -14, 7 tet -10)

"...and in the end, should someone die?"

So cool great❤❤

5:43 - I burst out laughing here. Friggin' perfect~

7edo sounds like beetwen minor and major, but some parts sound more like minor and others more like major, IDK if it's because my brain mixes it with the original piece, or it's the motif and rythm handling that the composer did.

@Trainwreck3000

7 ай бұрын

your brain is conditioned to look for minor and major sounds, 7edo is directly between minor and major.

23edo kinda slaps honestly