What I got from watching this is in a parallel universe the fundamental constants can be different but pi must always be between 3 and 4.

When was this recorded?

That chuckle at the end is me everytime

Does anyone know how to write an algorithm that allows for 1+1= a varying allocation of any number along the spectrum of potential?

With physical reality linked to particular mathematical relationships, would make mathematics as a general abstraction more primitive and nearer to fundamental?

We invented mathematics to try and describe the functioning of the universe. We get very close. Take for instance trying to calculate the circumference of a circle using Pi. We can get infinitely close by calculating Pi to a million decimal places or more but mathematics can never give us the actual value of the circumference of a circle. Yet it is an actual physical distance and if we would have a very, very accurate measuring tape we should be a able to measure it exactly. Same goes for the hypotenuse of a right angled triangle. The square root may give us a number with an infinite number of decimal places, but yet it is an actual physical distance and theoretically we should be able to measure it precisely, but using mathematics we can never get that distance precisely. The same thing with many, many other things - take the three body problem or chaos theory. Our mathematics works well but the universe doesn't care about mathematics. It does not "obey" mathematics.

To conclude: he doesn’t know. The human condition. We don’t know.

@peterm5187

2 жыл бұрын

This is a philosophical debate. What did you expect? Bible verses with eternal truth?

Is there a way mathematics as abstraction could be fundamental? What are the criteria for being fundamental?

The basis to all structures and phenomena in the universe is the Fibonacci based Menorah Matrix and its infrastructure, the inner-dimension or digital root system of the base-10 in which the repeating patterns that form the MM and other "structures" are embedded. The MM predicts the atomic nucleus (protons and neutrons), the subatomic quarks (predicting also three subquarks to each quark, which have been hypothesized by few physicists), predicting all their corresponding anti-particles as well. It predicts the quantized/discreet shells (K, L, M, N, O, P) and subshells (s, p, d, f) model of the atom, including the maximum number of electrons that each can hold. Basically, it provides the answers as to why the atomic structure is the way it is. The same mathematical infrastructure is the basis for the 64-matrix of 64 codons (each a triplet of nucleotides) predicting specifically 20 amino acids, excluding any other number of them. It predicts a DNA shaped as a double helix with a two base-pair system (AT & CG) and why it could not have been different, and much more. The MM's linear and spiral pathways produce a toroidal/dual-toroidal dynamic flow structure, predicting a fundamental behavior/structure observed in countless of physical phenomena. Being a self-similar universe based on the MM it predicts a finite toroidal/dual-toroidal pulsating universe, which implies an apparent expanding/contracting-like motion from every point in it (long-range expanding/contracting periodicity). Through the same MM’s linear (electric) and spiral/vortex (magnetic) bidirectional pathways (the opposite pathways are in Fibonacci by subtraction), it predicts the electromagnetic force, the likely cause of the attractive and repulsive forces (vortex/spiral interactions), the interrelationship of electricity and magnetism, explaining why they are both separated and indivisible. The MM's bidirectional pathways also explain the origin of the right-hand and left-hand rules. In other words, the MM provides evidence that the fundamental structures and phenomena of the universe, including the proto-single cell organism (LUCA) or the "common ancestor," are not the result of any evolutionary process but the product of a mathematical structure. To top that off, the MM study shows that MM’s patterns are the basis for the Earth/Moon's blueprint. Particularly in this case, the complex numerical and geometrical integration of patterns clearly indicate the necessity of an intelligent agent. In fact, the Earth/Moon's blueprint is designed with the fundamental patterns of the MM and other inner-dimension's major patterns. This includes the dimensions in miles and the ratio of the Earth and Moon (the study explains why miles and why they are not arbitrary), including in it also the golden ratio and pi, and in geometrical ratio producing also the squaring of the circle. The MM predictions include the axis tilts of the Earth (23.4°), which is numerically and contextually predicted by the MM’s axis value, which is also predicted by the values of the Pythagorean triangles/triplets, also integrated in the blueprint. In addition to that, by integrating the MM fundamental patterns (12 and 7) to the square pyramid, it also the predicts the Tropical and Sidereal cycles (365.242 and 365.256, respectively) to the third decimal digit. There is much more to the MM study that is not included here and neither in the paper linked below. It is truly the basis for the theory of everything. A condensed version of the Menorah Matrix study is on "research gate" (one word) dot net.

@michaelcgrasso1986

2 жыл бұрын

@@realitycheck1231 There is a good condensed version of the MM study on the site mentioned above. I cannot put the link because youtube deletes the comment. I can answer also here any questions you may have.

Awesome

Great video and interview from Robert Khun's channel Closer To Truth. I wonder if, perhaps, mathematics...all possibilities of mathematics are Quantum Entanglement Strings. They each pop into existence and have the Entanglement going, so all this is prompted when we use it. And if we used the same crunching of numbers or any combination there might one day be a different number appear as a quantum bloop. Mathematics is a way to do what everyone and everything want to do...funnel in all info for the best of logic and cognitive understanding. It's how we exist. It may be thought of as a grid surrounding our universe, all the way up to where Time is actually springboarding and pushing itself away its Past as I f to escape from it. The appearance of Matter the safeguard against unrestricted speed with the drag created.

Alternately, might mathematical particulars contribute to generation of physical reality?

8'45" "Mathematics is the ultimate reality because it has to be" is a religious reasoning in its circularity. How would Max define consciousness? What is the interplay, the set of relations between consciousness and mathematics? Temperature is not additive in the real world but longitude is. When measured in real numbers R, temperature and longitude have different axioms in their measurement models vs. . What is the measurement model that describes the relational system of mathematics and consciousness ?

Is mathematics an abstraction because linked to larger abstraction?

Almost totally agree with Max. I have just 2 different points: pi is simply a special case in euclidean geometry, in other geometries pi has different values (which I'm sure that he knows); second (much more of an actual disagreement), the empty space is and should be a placeholder for 'nothing' in mathematics, it is not an actual thing. I disagree with the Zermelo-Fraenkel axiomatic system, which derives all mathematical structures from the empty set. Sets are collections of elements, when there is no element - there is no set.

@dmitrysamoilov5989

2 жыл бұрын

The reason we say that the empty set exists is the same reason we say the number "0" exists. Yes, Zero is a Quality (a description), that means there are no objects present... but, the concept of there being zero objects... that definitely does exist... and the equivalent for that when we're talking about sets is the Null Set. It is the simplest mathematical object (from which, all the others can be derived).

I liked the last few seconds of the video.

Does physical reality make mathematical abstraction into a particular relationship or position, or does physical reality pick out a particular mathematical relationship or position that is already there?

@abelincoln8885

2 жыл бұрын

Only an intelligence makes Laws ( of Nature) and Mathematics.

@firstaidsack

2 жыл бұрын

As far as I understand what he's saying particular mathematical relationships that are already there create our physical reality.

@abelincoln8885

2 жыл бұрын

@@firstaidsack Man has always known ... that origin of anything with form, FUNCTION, purpose & design ... & ... especially rules & laws.. Atheism is also a religion, where a supernatural or "Almighty" intelligence, has been replaced by the theories or ideologies of a natural or "puny" intelligence called "Humans."

Yes

Maybe mathematics is transition from abstraction to physical reality, not completely either one? (a little like membrane of neuron?)

I think math is simply a symbolic representation from the human mind and does not exist outside of it. The mind doesn’t receive abstractions From the outside -it pushes them out. The space between one and two can be subdivided into eternity, and eternity erases the parameters that are necessary to shape anything that can be a thing into a “thing “

@03348826

2 жыл бұрын

wrong ,

the original set (?)

His final answer felt dissatisfying. Has to be that way? Why?

Max, come have a discussion with me.

It has to be that way in order for what is to be what it is. Ok, tautology on line one.

It is, that it is.

(2:18) *MT: **_"The most simple mathematical structure of all is the empty set."_* ... I'm a big fan of Tegmark, but I don't agree. A _set that contains no set members_ can only be referred to by name because this set cannot exist by definition. Without any objects, this supposed "set" becomes paradoxical. However, if you consciously _allow_ for the existence of this set, then you have *1* set of *0* set members to which the *number of sets* actually represents the simplest mathematical structure ... and not the set, itself. When it comes to "properties of mathematics," the following represents the most basic existential dichotomy: *Existence* = 1 (data) *Nonexistence* = 0 (no data) I argue that the smallest mathematical structure in existence is the juxtaposition of *1* and *0,* and it is from this juxtaposition that the entirety of mathematics (and everything else) has emerged.

@rauldurand

2 жыл бұрын

I beleave that it actually doesn't matter what is the simplest mathematical structure. But it is an interesting discussion.

@0-by-1_Publishing_LLC

2 жыл бұрын

@@rauldurand *"I beleave that it actually doesn't matter what is the simplest mathematical structure."* ... What is the absolute minimum number of "its" that you must have in order for it to not matter?

@Robinson8491

2 жыл бұрын

Actually this is how the number 0 in set theory is defined by John von Neuman. It's just the way it is; take it or leave it. Modern set theory cannot exist without it (for as far as I know), because the number 1 is defined by being a set containing that empty set of 0 But I agree with you I find the logic very ugly, and personally don't like this set theoretical thinking or reasoning by Von Neuman. But who am I to disagree with a mathematical community?

@0-by-1_Publishing_LLC

2 жыл бұрын

@@Robinson8491 *"But who am I to disagree with a mathematical community?"* ... You're an active, card-carrying member of "Club Existence" who has been struggling to reconcile this *0-1* paradox for the past 13.8 billion years ... _that's who!_

@0-by-1_Publishing_LLC

2 жыл бұрын

@McGyver289 *"there is no paradox, just invalid relations between abstract objects."* ... A single set of zero objects (empty set) results in a paradox based on the definitions of "set" and "zero." It's the same as saying "I am nothing."

I disagree about the color of 5 being yellow! I am absolutely sure the colour of 5 is green. 😉

@rarebreed1984

2 жыл бұрын

Same. Bottle green.

@davealaya

2 жыл бұрын

5 is red I'm sorry you're all wrong

@rarebreed1984

2 жыл бұрын

@@davealaya That's crazy talk.

Mathematics is theory. The measurements are not based on anything factual, it is a model. Regarding eternal -- what is eternal? Can the Soul be measured, or Intellect, or light, or the Aether, or the air, or consciousness. What is the mathematics of substance, essence, substrates? I don't quite understand the question. Can a theory be eternal? Is the cosmos made up by a theory? I would have to say no. Because a theory hasn't any attributes or properties. And the primordial cause, the One, is formless and beyond Intellect, therefor no mathematics can be applied, thought of or understood in any kind of logical sense. Though it seems mathematics is eternal. The material in a sense is a silhouette of its true form, which is formless. That which comes from something is inferior to its parent. Therefor mathematics cannot grasp the eternal parent and is not eternal.

Math is just something we invented to describe what is.

@rarebreed1984

2 жыл бұрын

@pyropulse Nah, because it's not perfect. It's a tool, a language we've constructed which correlates with the outside world but only to a degree.

Mathematics is only a description of reality around us. Its a language. If reality were different then our mathematics(placeholders) would change. Therefore our language to describe reality would change.

@pasquino0733

2 жыл бұрын

But why wouldn't that just be another variant of mathematics?

@dustinellerbe4125

2 жыл бұрын

@@pasquino0733 if math doesn't describe anything, it's pointless. If it describes reality in some sort, it acts as a placeholder for a real thing. Once the system/language is established, it can be used to describe things that are not real as well.

@abelincoln8885

2 жыл бұрын

Stop ignoring the obvious. Only an intelligence makes Laws ( of nature), Mathematics ... and anything that clearly has a purpose, function, form & DESIGN.

@dustinellerbe4125

2 жыл бұрын

@@abelincoln8885 what designed your designer?

@pasquino0733

2 жыл бұрын

@@dustinellerbe4125 A "Platonist" like Tegmark and Roger Penrose would disagree. I am sorry but I fall into the camp of Socrates and lack your confidence, in making such pronouncements about what maths is. The language according to them, may create the reality i.e. it is both a language and a structure. And as Tegmark notes here, some non descriptive mathematics may be entirely descriptive when seen in the context of the multiverse. You have not shown me, why to think differently here.

ya know if this reality exists, why would it be so strange to think other kinds cant exist? we have proof if you open your eyes and look around... if all this can exist? what else can?

Mathematics is the most complex tool humans ever created. Without mathematics, we would be missing a lot of knowledge of our reality and technologies, as well as the financial fundaments of economy. But, it's not said, that there can be a better system, that replaces mathematics the way it is. Like languages, it's a matter of understanding.

@rauldurand

2 жыл бұрын

Mathematics is not created. It doesn't require humans or even the universe to exist.

@owencampbell4947

2 жыл бұрын

@@rauldurand wrong, mathematics is a conscious construct that only exist in human conscious minds.

@sanathansatya1667

2 жыл бұрын

I totally agree with you but I feel Mathematics is not a tool created by human beings but discovered as part of the organised mechanisms of the creation . The precise, reproducible , universally observed repetitions.

@owencampbell4947

2 жыл бұрын

@@sanathansatya1667 the observations and understanding can only be interpreted through a conscious mind, dont you think? without the knowledge of mathematics there would be no discovery of any mathematical randomness.

@beebano5828

2 жыл бұрын

@@owencampbell4947 I think this was something addressed in this video and some others on the channel. It is suggested that in fact there is no need for a conscious mind at all for the mathematics to exist, and they exist whether someone is there to interpret it or not, existing as relationships between themselves. They are Platonic in that sense. If you have 2 points, A and B, there has to exist a midpoint between them, representing 1/2 of the total distance. In this case the number 1/2 exists purely without someone ever having to observe the points or give any of the numbers a name. Nothing needed to interpreted, nothing needed to be observed.

Of course Mathematics is not eternal. 60 years ago I knew my Times Tables for every number between 2 and 22 up to 12. Nowadays I I can barely get beyond 2 x 7 before repeating myself. Therefore Mathematics is slowly eroding away.

@Thebabatunde

2 жыл бұрын

Do you mean eroding within yourself or eroding for the human race or universe?

@ailblentyn

2 жыл бұрын

:)

@abelincoln8885

2 жыл бұрын

Only an intelligence makes Laws ( of nature), Mathematics ... and anything that clearly has a purpose, function, form & DESIGN.

@TreeBreezeL

2 жыл бұрын

@@abelincoln8885 Thats not a bad argument

Numbers don’t exist in a platonic form. Math is not the fundamental layer of the universe. That’s total nonsense. Tegmark is a brilliant mathematician, but his views on math are very strange. Math is a creation of the mind. If no one is around to think of the concept of 5, then 5 won’t exist. It’s just concepts.

@abelincoln8885

2 жыл бұрын

Just say "Only an intelligence makes Laws ( of nature), Mathematics ... and anything that clearly has a purpose, function, form & DESIGN."

A mathematical object? As opposed to a non-mathematical object? I'm lost.

Seeing five is yellow, I can see that too!

No disrespect intended but this explanation made the confusing complexity of String Theory seem intuitive by comparison.

Postulates of sets is fundamentally wrong as Everything must be compatible to nothingness and this requires absolute oneness of being.

X-Files Alien Mission 1) Exterminate or make into slaves all earthling poets, artists, musicians, mystics, human beings and creators of joy. Then replace them with the colorless counting corpses. 2) Devour this paradise planet lifeboat and the miraculous works of fine art called "life" on it in order to colonize desolate martian landscapes. Like bats that fly around in the darkness of caves...vampires (greed) are blind and cannot see the ignorance of transforming heaven (peace) into hell (war). The capitalist counting corpses are also blind and cannot see the ignorance of destroying the planet. Vampires (greed) who suck the joy out of life have joined the zombies who eat the futures of their children. Zombie Apocalypse is here and happening now.

Is Math eternal? Is that the question? Math is whatever you define.

@firstaidsack

2 жыл бұрын

You can define 2, 3, 5, +, and = but you get 2+3=5 without defining it.

@JungleJargon

2 жыл бұрын

@@firstaidsack One two and three have definitions.

There is only the number 1 period, all the other comes out of it

@gettaasteroid4650

2 жыл бұрын

Yessiree that's the gambler's paradox, we never quite make it to 2

@relaxationpeacefulmusic6296

2 жыл бұрын

@@gettaasteroid4650 can you get to any number without the number 1?

Aha, it must be possible.

@maxwellsimoes238

2 жыл бұрын

It NEVER possible because he Not knows set number are unsolve paradoxe . Big liar

@J.M_Sterken

2 жыл бұрын

@@maxwellsimoes238 everything is possible.😛😜😛

IMHO Math came into play ONCE reality started. Is just one (of the many) embedded language of the universe.

@rauldurand

2 жыл бұрын

Mathematics doesn't require the existence of a universe.

@francesco5581

2 жыл бұрын

@@rauldurand no ? you tried ? . Math is applied to existence. As an embedded property of it. Dont know if an emergent property. But talking of math as a platonic almost divinity is to me ridiculous .

@CarlosElio82

2 жыл бұрын

It is incongruous to have a Humble opinion on a Complex topic. You need to say more about the generating process that reality used to spawn mathematics. e=mc^2 is not a humble opinion. The mathematics of how high energy generates matter is presented in detail in the standard model. How is it then that reality generates or is a necessary condition for mathematics? It runs contrary to the accepted notion of a Platonic world.

@francesco5581

2 жыл бұрын

@@CarlosElio82 math cant be first cause since math itself generate nothing, so one can see it as a tool for a coherent design. Or as a mere translation of reality for consciousness. A theist can see math as a "God's brush" while a materialist can see math as "Nature perfect tool" . But both also can be also to see the unfolding of the universe as made by different forces that are lately described in mathematical terms.

@0-by-1_Publishing_LLC

2 жыл бұрын

@@francesco5581 *"But talking of math as a platonic almost divinity is to me ridiculous ."* ... Non-dimensional mathematics does not require any physical structure. Mathematics can be applied to conceptual existence. Mathematics lies in wait for you to conceive or produce something for it to count and calculate. And if you are still skeptical, then what physical structure is a mathematical point associated with?

💜💜💜💜💜💜💜

Any given configuration of existence will have some form of mathematics. Since continued existence seems to be a fixture of existence, math is "eternal". I don't understand the need for asking this question, other than to generate YT content.

@rauldurand

2 жыл бұрын

Mathematics is invariant for any kind of possible universes. Thus, it is eternal and ubiquitous.

@maxwellsimoes238

2 жыл бұрын

YOU Not believes him. He concept concern math arent in real world. He only speculation making abstract discussion it worthless math Philosophy.

@con.troller4183

2 жыл бұрын

@@maxwellsimoes238 It's not a matter of believing Tegmark or not. Math is a description of what exists and existence is (most likely) eternal, therefore math is eternal.

@abelincoln8885

2 жыл бұрын

Only an intelligence makes Laws ( of nature), Mathematics ... and anything that clearly has a purpose, function, form & DESIGN.

@maxwellsimoes238

2 жыл бұрын

@@con.troller4183 It is emocional anwers. Please let me knows what are "eternal math" . Math describes as Science model. First of all eternal are abstract concept. Math concept are meaning nothing. Though reason number show up picture in the world.

Mathematics exists independent of the Universe and this reality and will be same in any possible universes.

@Robinson8491

2 жыл бұрын

You sound very confident

@topguntk870

2 жыл бұрын

how do you know that? your a ignorant shill. What if each universe has different mathematics? its a possible and I'd argue likely.

@abelincoln8885

2 жыл бұрын

Only an intelligence makes Laws ( of nature), Mathematics ... and anything that clearly has a purpose, function, form & DESIGN.

@rarebreed1984

2 жыл бұрын

Nah

@Robinson8491

2 жыл бұрын

On what do you base this statement? As I can see another option, between which I unfortunately cannot objectively choose!

the transcendental object at the end of time, the holy spirit, the eternal mathematical structure, the ground of existence, God, nature... call it what you want, we are living it, so best enjoy the ride.

finally his complete explanation. I agree with him: as in pi *has* to be between 3 and 4 necessarily, because of its relation to the other factors in the circle. So all this mathematics exists, with symmetries, and like a Feynman diagram of mathematics the asymmetrical ones that do not mutually annihilate manifest in reality. *takes another bite of his shroom*

@maxwellsimoes238

2 жыл бұрын

Unbeliveble this chalattan. There arent exist set sequencial number because it are unsolve paradoxe.

@jackarmstrong5645

2 жыл бұрын

Pi is just a consequence of a defined abstract invented system. No circles exist in nature. You need to create an abstraction, a perfect circle, first, then you have pi. Abstractions exist AFTER minds capable of abstracting exist. Not before.

@Robinson8491

2 жыл бұрын

@@jackarmstrong5645 So I guess your point is mathematics does not exist in nature, but is platonic? Or it is not platonic either, and just imaginary? What is the point you're getting at

@jackarmstrong5645

2 жыл бұрын

@@Robinson8491 Mathematics is a construction. It does not exist before something with a mind capable of abstraction exists and creates it. Just because humans understand it and it has an internal consistency does not mean it exists before something with a mind capable of abstraction creates it.

@abelincoln8885

2 жыл бұрын

Or ....... Only an intelligence makes Laws ( of nature), Mathematics ... and anything that clearly has a purpose, function, form & DESIGN.

Mathematics is a "language of numbers" created by the mind of man. It has no real relationship to the universe, it's processes, and how it all fits together. It can only describe what we see, much as we use the word "tree" to refer to these green and brown things growing in our yard. We use a number to describe how many trees we see. We can even use numbers to tell us how the individual particles in the tree conform to quantum theory. But still we have no more than a description of that tree and it's particles. Math does not create the tree, math describes what is already created.

0:26 8:13 Π

so much question begging.

That’s lame. “Parallel lines bending to meet each other…. Maybe!” Probably not! …Max!

Title: Is Mathematics Eternal? Last few seconds of the video: I has to be that way. Conclusion: What a disappointing video. (No offense intended, Dr. Kuhn. I love your videos, at least most of them.)

Math and reality: Language is mixture of conceptual words. Long sentences carry big concept. Reality is much bigger complex than language and or math. Math is nothing but interplay of concepts and patterns abbreviated formats and jump from one concept of problem to another concept solution. It is conversion of objectivity into subjectivity back to objectivity. It is mind play with objects in the universe. When you say: F=MA Each letter is a concept E=MC2 -- each letter is concept and we chose those concept and put them into play and make another concept!!!!!!!!!!! Concepts exist in our mind subjectively. Saying math exists discovered or invented is rubbish Math is invented my our mind and body invented mind. Hahahahahahahaha!!! I win 🏆 🥇 All these big heads are just big !!!

You may be able to use the induction principle - a pendulum works the same way in either a moving vehicle, or on a stationary laboratory desk, implying the laws of physics are valid for any 'inertial reference frame' - , with the fact that from space Earth is solid and therefore, empty space on it's surface is an illusion, to resolve the contradiction of an object in motion against a gravitational force also experiencing an anti-gravitational force and consequently, from an energy theory perspective, a suspended object's energy is exhausted by velocity - speed in a certain direction - towards the largest surface in it's neighborhood when released, because the surface's composition includes the object - the surface might be uniform globally, but not locally - : in space more energy is required for velocity, because objects of our composition and scale are a long way off.

He concept concern math set are archaic and baseless. First he believes number are abstract relation in this way he wrong number describes setence are trully real. For exemple number sequencial are likinh in reality though number that drops bombs over Moscow. Secound de not knows set mulher are not empety NEVER. He not knows set unpredicted number are Russel paradoxo. He math are baseless speculations.

@ukgaming1084

2 жыл бұрын

This was hard to read. You are missing the point, he is not claiming to be right - he is simply enjoying and exploring the philosophy of why something we have created/discovered may have already been there

Mathematics is eternal Common core is an abomination

Tegmark is talking a lot and saying very little Saying Quantum mechanics and Relativity after every few sentences doesn't answer the question being asked I think his basic idea may be right... or wrong But he doesn't want to admit that he knows very little about it... so he keeps talking

Language is more complete than math. Language is not totally complete, but it is more complete, in the Godelian sense, than math. Unlike math the completeness of language is corroborated and supplemented by consciousness. Consciousness changes the completeness of language by the adding of words, meanings, and "nouns". The inventory of nouns (persons,places,things) is increased by consciousness - exploration of the world and our (human) relationships to it. Math is the quantum of consciousness. It bridges the gaps of linguistic meaning. Whether in geometry with points and lines leading to shapes; or in complex numbers providing solutions to Schrodinger's equations or electrical calculations. Unlike language the points, lines and imaginary numbers of math cannot be corroborated. Just as the laws of logic cannot guarantee certainty. Examples of the inadequacy of logic are tautologies, paradoxes and time travel. Logic is not necessary to consciousness. Indeed logic seems contingent on consciousness. Just as laws, in politics, are contingent on power.

It is that way bescue Allah made it that way. He is the Decider, Arbitrator, Maker of what pleases Him.

@rarebreed1984

2 жыл бұрын

He's a nonce.

Anything that has a beginning can never be eternal , its called cheating your self , man is very cunning cheater.