More on this subject to come in my live talk in Denver on June 8th (see altheacenter.org/classes for tickets)!

So cool to hear this as a Swede! Thank you for informing me about the past of my neighboring country! :D

@TpGoldens

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Ellerhur! :D

@eldattackkrossa9886

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verkligen :)

@romantheblack-cat

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Im also swedish and this morning my SO(i dont remember the english word for it) told us about it. Im excited to learn more by watching this video.

@hallvardlundehervig5508

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This is a common Scandinavian legacy! Norway did not exist at this point. In fact, the people around 0-250 A.D probably spoke a northern dialect of a common Germanic language spoken in southern Scandinavia and northern Germany.

@o.3464

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@@hallvardlundehervig5508 hahaga

"Runes come from Mars" - you heard it here first, folks! :D Edit: I'm glad I have a resource like this because I read a short English language article on this inscription and the name(?) was spelled with a D and not a ð

@Fielmann55

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In this case, spelling with a D happens to be correct, though.

@julianfejzo4829

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In Proto-Germanic and Proto-Norse the d was usually pronounced ð in between vowels, maybe Jackson Crawford probably used that spelling to emphasize that, I guess.

@faramund9865

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I mean I don't know that that's necesarily wrong. I've never seen an eð in reconstructed Proto-German. I don't know what the reconstructed pronunciation for the d is in Proto-German. But given most transcriptions give a D for the day-rune, I would assume it's the same D we find in most Germanic languages to this day, even if it was an eð in the 'Old' period. But I don't know that.

@user-gj1np9rp4d

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@@faramund9865 It mentions this about Proto-Germanic on Wikipedia. "[β], [ð] and [ɣ] were allophones of /b/, /d/ and /ɡ/ in certain positions" "/d/ was [d] after /l/ or /z/. Evidence for /d/ after /r/ is conflicting: it appears as a plosive in Gothic waurd "word" (not *waurþ, with devoicing), but as a fricative in Old Norse orð. /d/ hardened to [d] in all positions in the West Germanic languages."

@d.cacace8844

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So interesting as a layperson!

I appreciate that you recognized the risk that dubious information may surface and lead the curious astray. Please keep fighting the good fight of disseminating fact without bias 🤘 Of course I am ecstatic about this find.

I'm so going to the museum this weekend to see it! :D Very excited.

@cito2820

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I'm so jealous! Have fun!!

@SirCorrino

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Oh, it's being displayed already? Sweet, gonna go see it too, then

@Neophema

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@@cito2820 Thanks :D

@tairneanaich

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Oh I‘m so jealous, soon as I can get a flight over!

@Nekotaku_TV

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@@SirCorrino From the 21st.

Like you mentioned, I think it's possible that the "four pocket B" is closer to the source/original, and then it gradually was influenced by the roman alphabet. You can see this happening in the dalecarlian runic alphabet, which is probably the one that survived the longest as an actively used runic alphabet. In it's final form (early 1900s), it's almost readable like a roman alphabet. Not unlikely that this also happened with the older futhark, but at an earlier time. Another alternative is that someone used it to mark a "double b sound" (like "snabb" as opposed to "snab"), which is common in scandinavian languages today. Perhaps it was done by someone being "playful", like you said, or maybe it was an established way to scribe such words/names that was lost for some reason, or maybe it was only established locally.

@allangibson8494

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The Runes are could also be influenced by Greek and Phoenician (which also influenced Latin). Carthage was definitely trading with Northern Europe.

@katarinawikholm5873

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The bb was my first thought, too, as if the sign is stacked

@cyberpotato63

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The stone carver suffers from a studder.

@Hauntedundead

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Could be that you make a double B to save space on your workpiece. This might have been common practice for carvers?

@jacobjonesofmagna

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@@cyberpotato63 a stubber, if you will

Very interesting - I like the playful theory. People are people, regardless of geography or time..... it always amazes me that historic populations are considered sober and serious when in fact, they were just as idiotic and funny as us.

Was waiting for this! Your agenda free style is why I come to you. Thanks as always for sharing your knowledge and expertise. From the stormy skies of Sacramento, I'm wishing you... all the best.

@KAEFARIK

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First time really watching a video about the subject, I'm kind of curious what the "agenda" line is all about ... though I have a feeling I know what they're talking about... Being of Northern heritage myself supposedly, in a place like Sacramento - I'm pretty acquainted with the outrage and discouragement strangers will heap on me and anything that might honor my heritage... in the interest of anti-isms of course no way these strangers who want to devalue our shared history or cut us off from it could possibly be -ists of any kind could they?... Not really Sac, Amador County, small world =D

When was the last time something this major happened in the world of runes?

@ulrikschackmeyer848

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Well if we go from the Vimose comb being the oldest runic inscription so far, 'the last time something like this happened' would be 20.7. (July 20th)1865 in the excavation of the sacrificial moor of Vimose, NW of the city of Odense, Funen, Denmark, when the approx. A.D. 160 comb was found. A funny little detail is that the sacrificial moor where it was found, was already called 'Vimose' (the moor of the 'vi' - sacrificial place) BEFORE the comb was actually found. So the 19th century locals already (or still) had and idea of the 'holiness' of the moor, and had already named it thus. And other little detail about the comb that Mr Crawford may be able to solve? On the comb the runes say 'HARJA'. Some people claim that it could be name of the owner? On the other hand 'HARJA' in modern day Danish would be 'harve', the farming tool 'a harrow' to till the plowed fields. Personally In don't thing that it is a stretch to go from the toothed object of a 'harrow'/harve' to 'harja' just meaning a toothed comb!? So might the Vimose comb runes just be a writing exercise of some pupil, writing 'comb' on the comb? Just for practice? 'School assignment - Homework'? Funny thought, ey? So speaking of younger people, when was the last time some some 3rd graders homework had THIS much scrutiny?

@urhor

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@@ulrikschackmeyer848 harja means comb in Finnish

@F0nkyNinja

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"Härja" means "Ravage" in Swedish and "Harja" is brush/comb in Finnish and Estonian.

@richmondriddle3405

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I'm guessing you like the brazillian Thrash/Proto-death band "Sepultura"??

@josephkolodziejski6882

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@@F0nkyNinja Finnish has "kuningas" which is a practical carbon copy of Proto-Germanic "kuningaz" (Finnish has "s" for s and z sounds) with the exact same meaning and without even using Finnish as the method of determination! so that is very likely that the Finnish word "harja" is the same,especially given the context, as Finnish has a tendency to preserve archaic Germanic / proto Norse.

Read the news yesterday. Amazing find! Was waiting for your video on the translation of the inscription.

I got goosebumps when I heard it on NRK, norways national broadcast. So exciting!!

@elbuggo

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NRK er ren skit og propaganda.

Excited to finally hear your thoughts! Thanks for keeping good information accessible to people like me.

Thanks for making this, I've been really excited to hear the details of this find. I'm glad you're covering it so well.

Old Norse is far outside my areas of interest, but very much appreciate the calm, sober explanation of a very cool archeological find. Well done! :-)

@user-gj1np9rp4d

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This is technically not related to old Norse since it's been dated to being between 1AD to 250AD. And at that time Proto-Germanic would have been spoken and not old Norse.

The "playful theory" is quite interesting, and makes me think that it might be something similar to when many of us adopt a different shape for a certain letter just because we like it that way, much like Jackson with his eth-looking medieval "d"

@littlesnowflakepunk855

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The old Norse equivalent of dotting your I's with hearts

@ForrestMystic

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I sign the A of my first name like a star, when writing. Seems like it could be something like that.

This is fantastic! the mor findings and the more we know, the better! 🔥🔥🔥

Krister Vasshus's twitter thread (in English): twitter.com/KristerVasshus/status/1615236531689607169 Kristel Zilmer's twitter thread (in English): twitter.com/Kristel_Zilmer/status/1615462182606540800 Article on NRK (in Norwegian): www.nrk.no/kultur/fant-2000-ar-gammel-runestein-i-hole-1.16256351

@nomcognom2414

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A society that starts developing a written language culture, so long ago, seems unlikely to have put a playful mind to it, rather the contrary. Regarding age, those weren't exactly pregrad kids, back then. And those involved would likely be older than that, on average, anyway. I'd think there are better hypotheses to explain character variability, maybe as simple as efforts to deal with dialectal variability or nuances about meaning (like diacritical markings). But I am not even an amateur in these fields.

@matthewlawton9241

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Is there any indication that people used these playful permutations of the runes as personal monikers? Kind of a weird example, but sort of like how street gang members will take on a street name that's different, and often very playful, from the one given by their parents. Perhaps these stylized runes are unique to the individuals.

@nomcognom2414

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Quite recently, the oldest text in Basque was found at Irulegi. From the first century BCE, it predates by centuries the previous oldest text. It proves that Basque was first written using an alphabet related to the Iberian script (as yet mostly undeciphered). Researchers have been able to read it partially and it seems to present some challenges owing to variability or differences that might have something in common with the puzzling variability in runes. Basque, in the 20th century (less so nowadays, after the introduction of a standard) was very highly dialectalized. People from neighboring valleys and even villages could speak quite distinctively from eachother.

@ikbintom

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By the way, Google translates the article quite well (to Dutch and English at least)

@jessehines4044

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If the runes don't give a thorough description of glima then they are garbage.

As a German with Norwegian roots, this is pretty interesting. I hope Spektrum will do an article about it.

@karlcarlsen9664

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Willy Brand sind sie es?

Thank you so much for covering this, and for your work on the whole

What a time to be alive! Thank you for doing these breakdowns, Jackson! Like you say, it's unlikely one is ever to find the oldest thing written in a writing system, and this is part of a long tradition we know very little about, despite what TikTok-ers might claim. I still think there is a case to be made that the Negau helmet is the oldest attestation of a pre-runic tradition, although that's still a matter of much debate.

As soon as I saw this was discovered, I was anxiously waiting for what you had to say about it.

This is an exciting discovery. I'll be looking forward to more details from you. Thank you Jackson!

Absolutely brilliant! Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Well worth investigating this further. Brilliant.

Very interesting! You apply some good old fashioned horse sense with discussing Norse rune origins. I can’t wait to hear what is determined in these latest finds and of your views on them once you have access to more information. Thank you, and Stay Safe!!!

Very cool find. I'm excited to hear more. Currently also in beautiful Colorado on this snowy, cloudy day!

Heard about it yesterday and figured you'd make a video about it soon. This was sooner than I had expected! :)

Exciting stuff! Thank you for bringing it to us!

Very interesting. Thank you for a great analysis Jackson.

Usually with such titles it's 100% clickbait. I clicked anyways and waited patiently. Then you said they potentially just found the oldest runic writing so far, goosebumps all over. Now I'm going to enjoy the other 10 minutes of your video, thanks for the work, as always.

@PropaneWP

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I read an interview with Zilmer where she said that one of the rune stones were probably the oldest ever discovered. Professors usually don't say anything like that unless they have significant reason to do so.

I just ran across the Cherokee abudiga & has to smile at the origin of those letter shapes. Your comment about the possible sources of the runes having gone thru a “playful” period struck a resonance. Interesting stuff in both alphabets’ cases.

@michaelsommers2356

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Sequoyah made up many of the Cherokee letters.

So glad this is the first place I looked when I saw the news

Best out-of-context quote of the day! 🤣😂🤫 "New find proves Runes come from Mars!" ~~Jackson Crawford All seriousness, though, this is amazing! Thanks for the information :)

Grateful for your expertise and integrity!

Thank you, Dr Crawford and his Supporters.

Another exciting day on the forefront of the fast-moving and ever changing field of Norse runes!

Thank you for sharing this. It's exciting to hear of this find.

Fascinating as always! I can't wait to hear more!

I can't wait to hear more about this.

How fascinating. I can't wait to see what comes out of this.

Thank you Mr. Crawford. I was not aware of the find in Norway. Very exiting.

This is very cool that you take this case mr. Crawford. Cant wait for the future videos! Hilsen fra Hringariki.

I love your integrity and your devotion to your craft- because I really do believe that scientific inquiry is a craft.

The variant B is interesting, perhaps other early inscriptions need reexamination to see if they contain variants that have escaped the eye.

@nsjx

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Yes, I am not entirely sold on the "playing with the text" theory... not on grave hällstones. Although,..I highly respect DrC opinion because I am definitely no expert. I just have some books on different sites here in Swe. Let's hope we can get to the bottom of it 👍

@annestephens9631

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Maybe it could signify a doubling which had some local idiomatic, or even personal, meaning for which the context has long been unrecoverable?

@MatthewDoye

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@@annestephens9631 Another possibility.

@jonstfrancis

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@@annestephens9631 I'm also wondering if it could be a personal reason, almost like a mason's mark but in this case a rune carver's mark, I also wondered if there might be some kind of "magical" reason for doubling the strokes, increasing their power or something?

@annestephens9631

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@@jonstfrancis It's certainly fun to speculate. I admit to now feeling impatient for more examples to be discovered in the field, or maybe on smaller artefacts so far overlooked, or languishing in museum basements. Beware all imitations, eh? 🙂

It’s so surreal seeing a video game tuber style update video on historical linguistics

I think it's important schools stop teaching our children that our ancestors did not write in the Roman period. Yes they wrote, they had their own letters descended from the same system as the Roman alphabet. But they did not write on paper, they carved in stone, wood and bone. But they were NOT illiterate! Important!

Nice. I glanced at their tweets and I look forward to seeing more from them and you on this.

I was excited to come across the story trying out my B1 Norwegian reading newspapers

Thank you for posting this, fascinating subject and just the kind of video I subscribed to this channel - good information from a reliable source - not too common online.

Love this channel!

Thank you for this update! This is exciting !

I wonder how long it will be before I see the guys who post that they are descended from Ragnar Lothbrok posting that they have traced their family back to Idiberug?

total history fan/ enthusiast that I am, this seems super fascinating and I am glad that I have happened upon these videos. But I must also give voice to the ADD outdoorsman/hunter side of my brain and say that I was very delighted to hear the geese calling and/or flying over in the background. As a goose hunter and conservationist it just a delightful sound to here!

Wow, this is a breathtaking find! Had to read Your link to the Norwegian article. A thrilling thought if we one day could find "the missing link" between Scandinavian Bronze Age culture/petroglyphs and the Iron Age/Viking Age culture and runes...

Actually heard this on the Norwegian news radio either today or yesterday, very interesting

Thank you again for your time!

Thanks Doc Crawford! Your knowledge is priceless! :)

This is very exciting

Ty for continuing these great videos my friend 😊

Yeah, I heard about this just yesterday

We live strange times, because our best english scientific source of information is in twatter, of all places of internet.

Exciting discovery, and wonderful information and insights about how the layman may want to approach our understanding of this information. Reading through Norse stories and knowing their runinc inscriptions may differenciate from what we communicate in English is something that always sits at the back of my mind. I find I have a mix of curious and dubious feelings in regards to the translations of modern languages and how much they differenciate. So I enjoy approaching any text with an open mind and a simple desire to understand. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this discovery alongside the questions you hope to have answered.

THANK YOU! I appreciate the information and links.

Great information. How you're enjoying the storm. We have 4 inches here in Greeley. Stay warm!

@JacksonCrawford "Iðiberug" means "Ivy" (could perhaps be used as a name). Modern Icelandic spelling of the word is "iðuberg", the word have transformed alot, in Norwegian today it's "eføy", and in Swedish (my native tongue) it's "murgröna". I *think* that the staf (rune) you translated as just a "b" is actually supposed to be "bb" as in two "ᛒ" on top of eachother.

1st time ,getting to see/ hear your presentation..! Thanks!! Subed! 👍🐺🧙‍♂️!!

my granpa once told me about how the hobos knew to read and write trail signs even when they couldn't read or write letters. he also yelled "thunder bridge" whenever we crossed a river -- he told me this was the key to reading hobo trail signs. if you knew the sign for drinking water, thunder, and crossing/ford/bridge you could read any language in any alphabet. the use of these signs as universals transcends any specific language and have been used to mark trees and stones to help transients navigate safely or trick an unsuspecting traveler into drinking unsafe water or crossing dangerously.

Yes, Dr. Crawford is indeed god's gift to runes.

Insignificant, but fun; last summer a family in Randers found a huge runestone under their kitchen floor during a renovation project, from about 800 AD it's reckoned.

Wow! Incredibly exciting!

The origin being pushed back this far makes my pet theory more likely: that runic scripts were originally adapted not directly from the/a Greek alphabet but from some Italic script that was not the Roman alphabet. The idea that after a playful period a stronger standardization after increased exposure to Roman writings seems pretty likely to me. I am looking forward to hear more research about this find.

Could the B with 4 pockets be similar in style to the idea of adding extra stacked ^ to a Tiwaz Rune?

On the topic of being playful with how you write letters, im currently 25, but when I was around 20 I started writing "TH" as an h with a line through the stem (like a t), kinda bindrune like, and i also stopped writing the line in lowercase "n" (likewise, i write no line in lowercase u), so I think your idea of younger people being playful with the shapes of letters makes a lot of sense!

@clairelist1060

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No way I do the same thing!!! It's wild how creative humans are

@allangibson8494

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It’s called a “thorn”. It is present in most standard computer fonts these days (unfortunately not on most mobile phones). It was present in English until the importation of printing presses from Germany that lacked the character in their font packs pushed it out of common use and it got transcribed as a “y” (hence “ye” and “you” being printed where “the” and “thou” was actually written).

@AngryAndNegativeHistoryProject

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I don't know if carvings have that same effect on a person. Like when you're a kid in high school you doodle on your notebook, I don't think people were doodling to that degree on stone carvings

@NullHand

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Today, the h with a bar through it is widely known in the physical sciences as the symbol for Planck's constant (reduced). One of the most fundamental constants in all of physics.

@frogbear02

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@@allangibson8494 im very familiar with thorn, but thats not what i was referencing. Im talking about how i just decided in my early 20s to start writing th as a lowercase h but with a line through the "backrest", if you imagine an h as a side profile chair. as Richard pointed out very kindly, look up plancks constant (reduced) for a fairly good idea of what im talking about

Thank you for this!

Thank you for an interesting video, and bias free. When I was younger I was a bit of a dedicated amateur in this, glad youtube popped you up rather randomly. I agree that the runic letters are probably not Roman, even with exposure to Rome. We see how Ogham continued centuries after Rome invaded Britain and even so much later when monasteries were well established

An early transmission of the language makes sense to me. During the bronze age there is a known network of material wealth transfer from Mycenae to Northern Italy and from there into Germany and Scandinavia. It seems reasonable to me that some of this apparent trade network would have persisted into the iron age and once the alphabet sprung up it would have traveled about as quickly as the goods.

@allangibson8494

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Carthaginians we’re sailing the Atlantic as far north as the Baltic and trading for amber before 200BC. Jewish colonies were present in Ukraine from about the same period - so the Hebrew alphabet would have been present too.

@AndrewTheFrank

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@@allangibson8494 The trade connection i'm referring to ar about 2 to 3 thousand years older than that and stretch from the Baltic, British Isles and Iberia to the Alps and Sardinia and to Mycenae and the rest of the bronze age world we're used to. I think it would be silly that all these connections were forgotten during the bronze age collapse. The collapse is likely what facilitated the new alphabet system. IIRC before the collapse is was in use in one levant city only but during and after the collapse it gained popularity. Carthage, being a Phoenician colony would have inherited this more than likely. Some of the places of which we like to see the Phoenicians and Greeks colonizing are places where there seemed to be bronze age trade connections. So yeah its kind of why I think the transfer of the alphabet is not only early and old but probably earlier than most would fair to guess.

@allangibson8494

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@@AndrewTheFrank The new “Alphabet” that became dominant in the Mediterranean was the Phoenician Alphabet and its direct derivatives. The Greeks lost theirs (Linear B) for three centuries between 1200 BC and 900BC. The Romans were peasants with delusions of grandeur at that time.

@AndrewTheFrank

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@@allangibson8494 Yes, but the trade networks existed way before that and so it makes sense that something new, which could be traded and shared, would also transmit along these routes.

@allangibson8494

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@@AndrewTheFrank My point is more that “Latin” influence may be a misreading of an earlier influence on both - ie parallel development rather than linear.

I've been looking at purchasing The Poetic Edda, The Saga of the Volsungs, and Two Sagas of Mythical Heroes to do a custom leather bind of the set. It will be my first time doing this so I plan on practising on paperbacks of Poetic Edda. But my preference is to bind smyth-sewn books. Are the hardcover copies Smyth-Sewn or glued?

My impression of the runes shown especially in Kristel Zilmer's twitter thread was that they reminded me how older Hebrew or Northwest Semitic writing is much more angular, freer in form, and less "well-behaved" than later Hebrew writing that has a great self-awareness of being monumental and literary. Even so, the Caananite borrowings from the heiroglyphs and the proto-cuneiform pictograms have a very practical and pictorial mindset. The runes plus the pictorial "scribbles" makes me think of a similar attestation of age, an earlier, practical, make it as you go era. Very cool.

Lol the crow with the cowboy hat, love that logo

Online presentation (in English) about the stone from the University of Oslo's Historical Museum: www.historiskmuseum.no/english/exhibitions/worlds-oldest-rune-stone/ (thanks to Ronny Rokstad Justsen for the tip)

Thank you for your interpretation.

Saw an article on this yesterday, was hopin' you'd do a vid on it.

glad to know i wasn't the only one the spotted it. there is another theory on that "B" since the runes work like Orham they are written like they are on a tree trunk when they are in double. so like how we use double letters in the Latin alphabet they would turn it into 1 by writing them both as if they are tree, its likely a double letter. and it's either a name of a person or a place

Thank you for clearing up for me, that this runic inscription is probably a little older than the Viemose Comb (I live 5 miles from Viemose). Your thoughts on the origin of early runes are interesting. Viemose in Denmark is around 400 miles south of this recent find, so these runes would probably have been in widespread use and also more daily use (as the inscription on the comb suggests).

Heard about this find on Danish radio today, crazy if true.

Thanks, Norsedad.

Nice find and development.

Thank you.

3:33 The Washington Post got that wrong then, they say "Older runes have been found on other items, but not on stone. The earliest runic find is on a bone comb found in Denmark."

The idea that the runes might derive from a pre-Latin alphabet, and where influenced by the Latin alphabet in a later stage is interesting -- apparently something similar happened with the Gothic alphabet (not medieval script, but the alphabet used by the actual Goths), which has one, supposedly earlier variety with a Greek sigma-like "s" and another variety with a Latin s-shaped "s".

@NullHand

Жыл бұрын

This would make a lot of sense given that the Goths most likely were driven westward from areas probably on the north shore of the Black Sea in the age of migrations. The entire Black Sea area was much longer in the Greek trading sphere than it ever was Roman. If memory serves, the last speakers of Gothic were in the Crimean peninsula.

@Vandelberger

Жыл бұрын

I don’t see your Latin connection. Runes are by far older than Latin lettering. At most it’s the Indo-European language and far older than we know. Runes have some characters similar to Eastern Stepp.

@genossinwaabooz4373

Жыл бұрын

@@Vandelberger That was my impression.

The archeologist and author Jonathan Lindström has a good idea about how runes originated. He imagines a royal son ( or similar) was living in Rome "in high places" as apart of an alliance or exchange of hostage. There is the idea that "Danes" were more or less bribed to at least not support Germanic tribes close to Roman border. Astonishing large "treasures" are found in Danish soil. And this person can have learned both Latin And Greek.

My colleague today, while talking history he mentioned you and if i heard you. And im like of course i know him i even got a few words of the week on Patreon!

3:43 Can't wait for the crazy headlines with the year 8160 ;)))

A cowboy goes outside in falling snow to talk about rune scholarship. Not a mix i expected

I read abut this and the article says the objects will be on display at Historisk museum, Oslo, from January 21, probably before you get here again ;)

Could the 4 peaks for letter “B” symbolise mountains? Berg is a Germanic word for mountain. Just a conjecture

this is such a cool find

The B does look interesting. Really stands out.

thank you

I read an norwegian article about this and they was also speculating that this was made in a playful manner.

Thanks!