Emerald Beyond is hands-down my #1. Gargantuan sound & musical effort

@paulkazakoff9231

3 жыл бұрын

Great album Emerald and was lucky enough to see them not long after it was released.This is not far behind Birds and Inner mounting for sure.I probably listen more to Emerald than all their others !

@peternyc

Жыл бұрын

@Scott Ohlemeier, I agree. Narada Michael Walden's drumming and the total uniqueness of the composing sets it and all of the Mahavishnu records with Narada apart. They are like listening to music created from a different paradigm. As great as Birds of Fire is, it can't compare. The second iteration of Mahavishnu was like music created by a different civilization coming from a different planet. I've been a devoted fan since 1976. Nothing compares, unfortunately.

Glad to see your enthusiasm for Apocalypse. Brilliant album!

My first exposure to the band was Birds of Fire. You are absolutely right that all the right elements and timing occurred to make that album the greatest. I never saw this lineup live. However, I saw the shakti lineup which was amazing.

Being a guitar player my favorite is The Inner Mounting Flame.Johns playing on that album changed the evolution of the guitar.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

Yes..it's definitely the most influential.

Great channel Andy. I would say that the first LP is the most important. Birds of Fire is a "better" record, at least better sounding. But the shock of Inner Mounting Flame makes it's impact crucial. It's so raw, but so ahead of anything else in 1971. I had owned Extrapolation in late 1969 and had seen Lifetime 3 times in 1970. The first time was at Unganos in NY City. There were @30 people in the club. They blew me away. The best band ever at that point. But. When I put on IMF on my stereo, it shocked me in the best possible way. I saw them July 10, 1972 at UMass Amherst. My jaw was on the floor the entire gig. They opened with Dream, unteleased st the time. I remember the audience seemed to be swaying along to the odd time signatures. Wtf? Still my fav band of all time. One final point. Without Rick Laird at that gig, I would have been completely lost. For me, he was the entry point and the guide. And his sound was massive. Peace.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

Жыл бұрын

I love this comment...andyour description of Rick's bass sound is really telling. I will need to digest that point...

This is an excellent review and about time someone gave Emerald it’s due. I rank Visions of the Emerald Beyond as easily my favorite, followed by Apocalypse, then Birds of Fire.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks Michael

@Jiv_Ing57819

3 жыл бұрын

Can not go without Birds, if you don't have it where is it? ,: 0

@andrewgillis8572

3 жыл бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Headhunters drummer was one Michael Clark - agree that Visions flows best between tracks - and sound quality remains teh ultimate - the way I would test any sound system or loudspeaker

I saw/heard them at the (acoustically perfect) Auditorium, Park West and Arie Crown theaters in Chicago. All (3) performances were mystical.

Its good to remember that once George Martin was free of his Beatles commitment who did he work with? Mahavishnu Orchestra of course. Anyone would have welcomed his production.

I didn't skip ahead but I totally knew Birds was be number 1. Thank you Andy! I really enjoyed your reviews!! Let's get drunk and listen through the night until noon.

As a drummer, and even if Cobham is a monster, I've to say Emerald Beyond. Narada Michael Walden just kills it. And the riff in Eternity's Breath Part 1 must be one of the heaviest ever made. Any Metallica song sounds like a lullaby compared to it.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

Жыл бұрын

I think its the greatest album ever made, with the greatest drum sound and drumming. There is a passion and energy to NMW's drumming which few drummers have.

Apocalypse was the first and only Mahavishnu album I had for a few years. Absolutely loved that album. Now I have all the good ones, but Apocalypse is still my favorite by a decent margin. I got into the LSO and that lady singing. Plus John's guitar. My only complaint with TMO is sometimes they could back off on all that electric violin a little bit. It's a bit too much sometimes.

Ditto!!! I saw both Shakti & the 2nd version if MO in Seattle back in the day. A Shakti album would've made a great edition to your honorable mention category. All of Miles' brightest collaborators from the 70s became the titans of fusion. Life changing music to say the least. Hallelujah!

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

I agree....Shakti and MO are JM's creative peaks IMO, related in their intensity and desire to affect the audience in a way no one else had attempted to do on this scale.

Great to listen to someone educated and knowledgeable within music who tlaks about ranking albums.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks Stefan

I agree with your assessment of No. 1. Birds of Fire, i just played that again after 25 years of it not being available, no turntable, but now hearing it again is absolutely amazing!

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, I think it's the best. IMF is the most influential but they reached a height with BOF

Visions of the emerald beyond, one of the best record of the universe

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

I agree David! Secretly it's my favourite but imagine if I had made it number 1!

@daviddevilliers2828

3 жыл бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer why not? This disc is so fabulous, so creative, lyrical. Apocalypse too.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

@@daviddevilliers2828 I think I upset enough not making IMF number one! Have you heard Oh Yeah by Jan Hammer?

@daviddevilliers2828

3 жыл бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer i Check now, thank you

Thank you for putting such a well thought out review. I would move Inner Monting Flame to number one and leave all the rest exactly in place. While I understand your reasoning ,Inner Mounting Flame while being recorded so hastily. (I love the first producer quit beccause they played too loud!) truly captures the raw essence of the Mahavisnu Orchestra. Birds Of Fire polishes that rawness in a better recorded album. I think Visions Of The Emerald Beyond shows an evolution of their music with at times a progrock quality to it. I got to see the band in an old movie theater in 1972. They came out on stage and John asked for a minute of meditation and silence. This audience of stoned out kids actually did that. They opened with Meeting Of The Spirits. When the song ended while it was only seconds, there was a delay before the audience erupted in applause. I think it took our brains a few seconds to process what we just heard. Thanks again for this video!

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

I do miss the moog though, and the drum sound is not so great....thanks for that though...love that story!

Which is the best is such a difficult discussion, that we all agree Mahavishnu are best is all that matters.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

It is but there is a value in having it. I'm sure there is a minority that think Adventures in Radio Land far greater than Inner Mounting Flame. But they would be in a minorty. And so the fact that there are these general correllations in music suggests there are universal qualities in music. That's a strange thought that most people would disagree with. This is the inlfuence of post modernism on the way we think about art and music.

Those early 70th man, what an era. Absolure golden age where virtuosos did get the recognition and left us tons of brilliant stuff. As If they knew that 50 years later there will be no room for such music and they had to leave as much legacy as possible

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

These albums were made quickly, there are little mistakes, faults in the recordings, jammed sections etc. I think IMF was done in two days. But they captured something that has lived on for decades. I wonder how much of today's music, where computers can edit everything to perfection, will still be listened to in 50 years time. I think there is something musicians can learn from this...

@MiUnited

3 жыл бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Imagine if those guys were offered to quantize instuments

Yes Andy, I go with your ranking totally. BoF was the first MO album I ever heard and it changed my life forever. The drum sound has never been equalled I reckon, and much praise to Ken Scott for getting that sound.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

I love the drum sound on Wired by Jeff Beck too....

Great analysis overall. Nice take on Inner Worlds. Love "Miles Out".

Thank you for this. Probably enjoy Visions the most but certainly can’t argue with the list.

I agree Gayle's vocals are absolutely fantastic on apocalypse n anything she did with Mahavishnu imo ,: 0

@BarrySmithviolin

3 жыл бұрын

She was an Angel when I saw and heard her on the Apocalypse tour. ❤️

Small friendly quibbles aside, this is insightful commentary from a Mahavishnu fan who really knows his stuff! It is the finest "Mahavishnu review" video I have seen on KZread. And, all put forth without taking a breath! :-)

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the endorsement Walter. And if I do know my stuff that is down to your excellent work! All the best to you.

@markanderson1313

4 жыл бұрын

Totally agree Walter, he knows his onions, as we tykes say over here :)

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

4 жыл бұрын

@@markanderson1313 Thank you Mark...and I will be upsetting many vegetable fans with my up and coming coming 'Onions ranked worst to best' video.....

@BrennanYoung

9 ай бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Leeks at number 10. Garlic at the top spot, obvs.

There are 2 tunes on the Charisma LP from 1973 'Songs for a new church' It has Mr and Mrs McLaughlin on singing and acoustic guitar. The cover is painted by the same bloke who created the Motorhead artwork from 1976 or so and the Pink Floyd comic from '74.

Great thanks - 'Emerald Beyond' does it for me - I saw that band live in 1974 in Sydney. And don't forget the M.H.O. Montreux sessions albums for live dynamite.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for that...kzread.info/dash/bejne/kWGFvNCnkaydorw.html

@paulkazakoff9231

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah I saw that band in Perth Concert Hall in 74' and fantastic show.Blew the crowd away and one of my top 10 concerts for sure !

Never forget!!!...Mahavishnu concert in the seventies - Düsseldorf/Germany

Another album with the MO feel is Narada Michael Walden Garden of Love Light. Not the whole thing, but definitely "The sun is dancing".

@TheGenreman

3 жыл бұрын

I agree, it follows on from inner worlds

@tonypeake467

3 жыл бұрын

Great piece of music

@Squirrelconga

3 жыл бұрын

💜

I always say that Visions sounds like a dream. A dream that a virtuoso would have, trying to write it all down when he or she woke up! Haha

Birds of Fire... yes!!!!!!!!!! #1!

@steveberti7060

3 жыл бұрын

So good to hear some ones comments on my favourite musicians

This was brilliant. I really enjoyed hearing your opinions about this amazing material. You obviously know this stuff inside and out. I first heard Birds of fire when I was 16 and my life was forever changed. I agree Birds of Fire the title track is there finest moment. It is the most intensely spiritual and musically unique piece I have experienced. It's safe to say my musical life is defined by John McLaughlin and his musical directions. My top albums would be: Birds of fire (just based on the compositions it is incredible, not to mention the highly refined nature of the virtuoso playing all round). Apocalypse (I agree this underrated - but I would put it even higher. The orchestration blend with the main group is unmatched in the fusion world). Between nothingness and eternity (absolutely beautiful and mind blowing) Inner mountain flame (very powerful but not the same depth as the others) Visions of the emerald beyond (some great moments but overall some of the compositions don't hold up so well) Just my opinion ofcourse but it feels nice to share with some fellow Mahavishnu fans.

@alankirkby465

2 жыл бұрын

It's nice feeling knowing there are other MO, fans out there ( similar to yourself) Peace to all.

The impact of the Mahavishnu Orchestra can not be overstated. At that time there was no musical experience that could prepare you for your first Mahavishnu concert. I was lucky enough to have seen the original group twice and the Emerald Beyond group once. My favorite of those shows was the very first when they were playing material from Inner Mounting Flame. The Emerald Beyond Band was great obviously, but didn't have quite the fire and telepathic interplay of Mahavishnu Mark 1. You are so right about Narada's drum sound. You could feel his bass drums in your gut. At that time a lot of drummers were chasing Billy, Alphonse Mouzon, Narada, Lenny White and others. In my view Narada came closest to Billy's mastery. Thanks for your reviews. I might suggest the album John Mclaughlin Electric Guitarist to listeners who can't get enough.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for that. Check out my video on JM's albums, I spoke about Electric Guitarist at length.

@randydoak6638

3 жыл бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I'll look into that one next!

This was a great review. Greetings from Florida, U.S.A. Cheers, Andy.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

5 ай бұрын

Thank you! Cheers!

Just discovered your countdown today and loved it! What a fantastic recording analysis of my favorite band of all time. I had seen them live twice in NYC during the "Birds of Fire" period and always wished I had discovered them sooner. My order matches yours almost exactly, except for VOTEB is my #3 and BN&E is #2 in spite of the less than wonderful recording, although the reissue is a noticeable improvement.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, the reissue with the second disc sounds loads better, If it had come out at the time as a two disc thing and sounded like that it may well have been my favourite MO album. But I rated this based upon my perception by these at the time. Yes they were a life changing band. My ranking is really just an excuse to talk about them. And it's been great to reach out to so many likeminded people. Please check out my guide to the albums of John McLaughlin if you get a chance.

@LarryAlexander

3 жыл бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Will do! Also, I want to thank you for my rediscovery of the 15:03 live version of "Noonward Race". I had forgotten that it was at the end of the reissued Inner Mounting Flame CD in the (now rare as hen's teeth) box set. Pulled it out last night and was blown away yet again after not hearing it for several years. Cheers...

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

@@LarryAlexander I had the Mar Y Sol album when I was younger. It was very hard to find a copy but worth it for that one track. Perhaps the greatest bit of properly recorded live MO there is (until they properly release the Cleveland live recording. But Jerry won't let that come out. kzread.info/dash/bejne/a2V3085unMzFYrQ.html)

I agree with Andy though that ONE WORD is a monstrously-great experience. It's maybe the best single track of all MahaVish albums.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

Yes...BOF was the first album I heard and I remember staring at the speakers in disbelief when One Word came on!

Found it! lol. Great review. I can't say I deeply dislike any of these records. Yes, some I do not listen near as much. I agree, as if it matters, that Birds is THE definitive MO album. This came upon an unsuspecting world and conquered it. Yes, 'Visions' is my all time favorite recording of any artist, well, McLaughlin is my favorite artist.

My Mahavishnu Orchestra album rankings including live albums: 1. Birds Of Fire 2. The Inner Mounting Flame 3. Between Nothingness & Eternity 4. Unreleased Tracks From Between Nothingness & Eternity 5. The Lost Trident Sessions 6. Visions Of The Emerald Beyond 7. Apocalypse 8. Inner Worlds 9. Mahavishnu 10. Adventures In Radioland

Enjoyed this! Excellent analysis. Thanks. My top MO albums, in order of preference: Visions of the Emerald Beyond; Inner Mounting Flame; Birds of Fire; Apocalypse; BNaE; Inner Worlds.

Damn this is great..you"re doing the world a great service, Andy.

I had to check my vinyl collection to assure myself you hadn't absconded with some of my LPs! The only one of yours I don't have is the Hammer/Goodman collab, though I remember seeing it in record stores back in the day. When McLaughlin went off on his 1st post-MO gig (Shakti), I was HUGELY disappointed - I acknowledged the brilliance & virtuosity of the playing, but I just couldn't hear the music - I wasn't ready for it, any more than I was ready for Miles when I first heard him. Every so often I'd put it on the turntable to check it out, and each time sadly put it back in the sleeve - until the day my wife left me home alone unsupervised, and I tried it again after a doob. This time I heard the music - and it fucking blew me away, especially the long jam on side 2. And it wasn't just the weed, because it sounded just as good the next day. To this day, that track can move me to tears. As good as MO was, I'd have to say Shakti was the pinnacle of his career.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

As the biggest MO fan on the planet I then got Bitches Brew. I didn't get it at all but because of the lineup I kept listening. That album was a game changer once I got it.

@lesnyk255

3 жыл бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I had a different journey with BB. I'd checked out Miles a few earlier, when I was still in college, but I just wasn't ready for it. I didn't get it. In the meantime I'd become a huge fusion fan - Mahavishnu, RTF, 11th House - but I was also exploring the jazz a little closer to shore: big bands like Maynard Ferguson & Don Ellis, Gary Burton's group, Herbie Mann... Maybe that was the training I needed, 'cause when I first put Bitches Brew on the turntable, it blew me away.

Enjoyed it! And I'm basically in agreemement with your rankings except I would have swapped round Apocalypse and BNAE. The latter was my first (mind blown) exposure to the MO and changed the way I played guitar forever. The live version of Trilogy is still my favourite track of theirs. Would have also included Jean Luc Ponty's Enigmatic Ocean as an honourable mention, which is his best album as well as one of the all time best fusion albums. Almost up there with the MO studio recordings IMO: great compositions, great playing from Ponty and awesome contributions on guitar from Allan Holdsworth - some of his most accessible playing - and Daryl Stuermer.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

I absolutely love Holdsworth. I may do a ranking of him...a top ten that includes his solo albums and the session stuff. And Enigmatic Ocean could well make that list...I think....

@dbmusic67

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I'd look forward to that.

I've got two copies of Like Children, and one of Love Devotion Surrender (all on vinyl). Apparently, Like Children has finally been reissued on CD. I know that it was debatable whether the labels even still had the tapes for a while, as I inquired about it when I was hanging out with Jerry after a show he played back in '01. Probably one of my top-10 favorite albums of all time! Glad to see someone shedding light on it!!

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

4 жыл бұрын

That, 'Oh Yeah' and 'Melodies' by the Jan Hammer group are essential recordings for MO fans in my opinion. 'Oh Yeah' is also as great as any MO album IMO

@Cr8Tron

4 жыл бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I'll have to check them out (or revisit them, if I've already heard them--There was a *lot* of stuff played for me that I couldn't keep track of back in the day)!! The only other Jan Hammer album I've wound up with was "Escape from Television" (which probably was one that got a mixed response I'm guessing?)

@BarrySmithviolin

3 жыл бұрын

Like Children now sounds absolutely KILLER even on Spotify. I don’t have the CD, but sure sounds like capable ears re-mastered it. It’s a very punchy mastering! All kinds of bottom end, which is absolutely necessary...🌹

@Cr8Tron

3 жыл бұрын

@@BarrySmithviolin Good to know!! I've had mp3 files of all the tracks since way back in 2004, after a friend found some downloads available. No idea how they were made, aside from the obvious fact they were recorded from vinyl. You can hear occasional dust sounds and clipping... But not horrible otherwise. It's at least spectrally-balanced sounding. Most of the tracks from the re-release are apparently already all uploaded on the Jan Hammer-Topic channel: kzread.info/head/PLhuvEQzJRGB7igF70Pw3ymeF2bgq0nceJ Listening from my phone plugged into my ADA converter going through my studio monitors, the KZread uploads alone already sound improved. But I'll definitely have to keep my eyes peeled for any convenient opportunities to actually *buy* this re-release. Anyhow, appreciate the positive review--cheers!! 🍻

@BarrySmithviolin

3 жыл бұрын

@@Cr8Tron The Like Children on Jan’s topic channel sound incredibly close to the Spotify ones.

Another honourable mention should surely be a tribute to Jack Johnson by Miles Davis which features McLaughlin & Cobham.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, and 'My Goals Beyond' that features JM, BC and JG. And 'Spaces' and 'Planet End' by Larry Coryell which feature BC and JM. Also worth checking out for MO fans is 'Duran' off 'Directions' by Miles Davis. It has JM and BC and is prototype MO. There are also collaborations between JM, BC and JG on 'Electric Guitarist' by JM. I have always thought however that the spirit of the MO continued more on the albums 'Like Children' and 'Oh Yeah' by Jan Hammer.If you like MO you should check those out

@tonypeake467

3 жыл бұрын

Outside of John's MO days, his greatest fusion album. Beck rates it in top 10 album of all time.

Like Children is amazing. Thank you!

Between Nothingness and Eternity is my fave. 🌹 And the recent re-master is absolutely KILLER! Or is it an actual re-mix? Anywho, all 5 of those gentlemen were on FIRE 🔥 in Central Park NYC when they recorded this album.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

I agree. When I originally bought BNAE I was let down by the mix. The new remix is great and the additional material has made it an essential purchase. I based my rankings around the original versions.

@BarrySmithviolin

3 жыл бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Yes, so true, the original mix was a mess. Especially compared to a live album like Frampton Comes Alive, which launched Peter’s solo career, and sold to the moon in numbers! Thank you for a brilliant ranking video, I learned much from it! 🌟

I saw Mahavishnu in Austin play one of their last gigs and it was fantastic!

The Inner Mounting Flame for me. Favourite track The Dance of Maya. It sounds as incredible now as it did back then.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

Жыл бұрын

Yes...it represents their sound perfectly

It was nice. Very accurate ranking.

Hey Andy very cool stuff! I agree a lot with most of what you say. You probably have already but if you haven’t- check out the unreleased versions of between nothingness and eternity. Already available on Spotify. Somehow no vinyl nor cd release, just mp3!! The mix is amazing for a live album. And the performances are cristal clear, intense and precise. All best to you!

@Delalumiere666

2 жыл бұрын

One of my favs (if not my fav) vital transformation version in there!

Largely the same positioning on M.O. As You say there are loads of Amazing Live Boots. Honourable mentions.You highlight "The Life Divine"(From the "Love ,devotion, surrender" L.p,) it's totally Incredible.Also Carla Bley's "Escalator over the Hill", which has a lot of Key John McLaughlin Genius on it, as does Miles' "Bitches Brew", The Tony Williams' Lifetimes"Emergency" and "Turn it over" albums.🕉.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

check out my John McLaughlin videos, I go into greater detail...also if we are talking Life Divine how about Flame/Sky off Antana's Welcome?

I agree apart from the last 3. I would say Birds Of Fire=3, Inner Mounting Flame=2, and Visions=1. One Word is awesome but I really love Dawn, You Know You Know, Lila's Dance, Pastoral and Smile Of The Beyond just as much. But Eternity's Breath just takes the cake for me. There will never be another band like this.

One world Is hands down my favorite Mahavishnu piece

Looks like I have to pull some albums out after listening to the vid. Thanks. Cheers

My personal ranking is identical to how you've ranked them. Awesome!

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

Жыл бұрын

Cool, thanks!

Interesting, i think the production on The Inner Mounting Flame is of much better than on Birds of Fire. The sounds is much clearer, more raw and more authentic, IMO

I grew up with MO blasting in my living room from 1972 on. My brother Greg (Grisha) learned their entire albums, and later in life had Jerry Goodman record on his album that he titled GUITARS OF FIRE. Jerry dug it, and for the first time in Jerry's life he covered some Vishnu (outside of with Jan) with my bro on that album because they became good friends. Jerry loved Grisha's acoustic playing (a bit of a mix of John and Larry Coryell). Andy, you mentioned My Goal's Beyond, THAT was the clincher for my bro. That is what he sounded most like aside from his Larry-isms. I saw Larry several years ago at Yoshi's Oakland. He was doing electric and stopped for an acoustic jam. I turned to my other bro and said - man, that is what Grisha sounds like on our porch! I finally realized how good he was. I forced him to get out and play in public, as I had toured and recorded etc He did. After a few coffee shop gigs he got the recording gig with Jerry, his childhood hero. I gave a copy to Billy Cobham. Dreams do come true. Cheers Andy. Thanks.

Hi Andy, thank you for these videos! I really like your approach/understanding which is filtered through your sonic/music brain and so insightful and yet playful and fun. I agree with you for the most part and you brought out some thoughts about each record's strengths and weaknesses I hadn't;t thought of but which make sense!

Bang on. Apocalypse is criminally underrated. It’s a brilliant album. Birds of Fire is utterly magnificent too

Yeah, I'm with you. Birds of Fire was one I saw in a LOT of collections. Surprised you didn't go for one of the Shakti albums.

Spot on buddy! Couldn't have said it better myself.🖖#Cobhamisthebest✊

I absolutely love visions of the emerald beyond and… 1984 mahavishnu. i love how mclaughlin took the aura of 80s music and transformed it his way into fusion. walking away from classic jazzrock turned out well IMO

Oh, one last thing. I've recently read a lot of prog rock biographies. Mahavishnu, especially the first album, had a *profound* influence on at least two influential bands: Yes and Genesis. In fact, Close to the Edge, the whole album but especially the song, is a homage to them. Something similar with Genesis and Selling England. King Crimson was not directly influenced, but Fripp used to listend to John M. often.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

Жыл бұрын

I think it is Relayer where you really hear the MO influence. Also on the Genesis box set there are some live recordings around 74 where Collins is really channelling Billy Cobham. Also worth checking out the track Cambodia by Brand X which sounds exactly like MO. Jeff Beck, Crimson, Soundgarden and even Cheap Trick have echoes of the MO in their music. Mars Volta is another...there influence is pretty immense

@jdmresearch

Жыл бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Agreed about Relayer. Though I've to say that it feels as a response to the spiritual Tales. I mean, like a frenetic, Jazz-Rock response, especially considering Tales was panned by critics. At any rate, Will Romano in his Close to the Edge book makes a good argument for the influence of MO on CTTE. Also there's this recent interview with Steve Howe, where the issue is addressed explicitly (2:50): kzread.info/dash/bejne/d6KqmbWhg5XFdqQ.html As for Phil, I *strongly* suggest listening to this interview. It seems that he's not aware that he's being taped, so he's extremely candid in his opinions about Bruford, White, Herbie Hancock, Billy Cobham, Mike Giles, Carl Palmer, ELP, and many others. He's been interviewed by a drummer, so the focus is drums: kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZKN1yLqqfrKeh7w.html One snippet: "I like Mahavishnu-neurotic, it's done with taste. (ELP-neurotic, on the other hand, it is not )." Thanks again for your channel!

@lamecasuelas2

Жыл бұрын

Oh! Give some credit to Bill Bruford, he was really into Them

Birds of fire is the best album ! and birds of fire is the best title on this lp !

Spot on 👌🏾

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

Жыл бұрын

🙌

Perfect. There was a double album by Ed Sebisky(?) that melded Stravinsky's "Firebird Suite" and Mahavishnu's "Birds of Fire." It's sick an2ed Cobham kicks... Laws on flute solos. Dig, kids.

@donaldweir2403

Жыл бұрын

I have that double LP. 'Giant Box' by Don Sebesky on the CTI record label has the melded Fire/Firebird combination as the whole of side 1. That track is brilliant, but others less intense are also great. Freddie Hubbard on trumpet, Ron Carter on Dbl bass.Sebesky was the arranger's arrangers for post bebop jazz

Apocalypse and Visions of the emerald beyond are my favorites

JM was already bored with the electric high volume band by Adventures in Radioland. He was falling back in love with the acoustic by then and thinking forward to the JM trio.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

4 жыл бұрын

I think that is right....possibly true of Inner Worlds too

@markanderson1313

4 жыл бұрын

Andy Edwards Inner Worlds was a contractual obligation and because JM was already deeply into Shakti he gave the reins over to Narada which is why a lot of his material came out then and in his subsequent solo LP Garden of Lovelight

I agree, we miss the Moog on the fist album... yeah Jan Hammer !!

To be honest the 80ies Mahavishnu albums are the weakest for me but I prefer "Adventures in Radioland" because there you can hear at least more "natural" sounds. I never understood this permanent guitar synthesizer sound on the 1984's album. But your video is excellent 👍👍👍

I didn't like Apocalypse. Maybe I'll have to listen to it again. Birds of Fire is my favorite Mahavishnu album. "Dream" is my favorite Mahavishnu composition. Spectrum is my favorite fusion album.

Any suggestions on where to find live bootlegs of MO? Thanks

Thanks Andy, interesting opinion. First Mahavishnu LP I got (& heard in late 80s) was Birds of Fire.. but it wasn’t until I got Inner Mounting Flame, that I was totally blown away… But in retrospect, I actually have a number of criticisms - frequently harsh & shrill tone of guitar & violin, and generally too 'full-on’ (though that is presumably the point; but if I want really full-on, I would probably prefer listen to some early Megadeth or Bad Brains). Also, the solos aren’t very good on the whole, just fast and manic... For me, the best thing about Mahavishnu is the riffs, the arrangement of them, and the way they build them up is excellent.. but then frequently get ruined when the soloing comes in. e.g. One Word - kzread.info/dash/bejne/eYuImNqtZrSzoLQ.html - After a spectacular build-up for 4 mins, it comes in with annoying rotating solos (keyboards particularly brash) continuing with 'far-out’ ramblings… I almost wish that the (early) Mahavishnu could be re-done, but with someone along the lines of Mattias IA Eklundh or Chris Poland doing the solos. However, Billy Cobham is of course outstanding… his playing with Mahavishnu is probably the best he’s ever done. The 80s stuff, I have barely heard, because 10 secs of Synclavier is 10 seconds too long for me, with 80s electronic drum sounds should simply be consigned to the dustbins of time… Thanks again - I will continue to revisit Mahavishnu and Shakti, and check out some of your other suggestions.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

Some interesting opinions there :) I think you can consider the solos in the context of how incredibly groundbreaking the MO was. Mattias IA Eklundh or Chris Poland would not be doing what they do without these early albums and their innovations. JM and JH were and are incredibly advanced jazz musicians, so when you hear all those messy pentatonics, indian rhythmic figures an altered modes on their solos you need to think why they are playing like that when they were so jazz schooled. It's because they have ripped the rule book up for jazz. It's fusion, but a fusion of Hendrix, Coltrane and Indian classical music. For me it is more profound, more risky and more shocking than the heavy metal with a bit Holdsworth solos of Mattias Eklundh or modal centred approach of Chris Poland. They are great players but they stand on the shoulders of giants like Mclaughlin and Holdsworth. Yes it's brash and jarring, yes they were the loudest, fastest band on the planet, that was the point I think.

@Toby_iVapour

3 жыл бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I take your points that Mahavisnu were an incredible influence on pretty much all players in the jazz/rock/fusion field.. I would never deny that... But maybe to to put it more simply.. if you take the Guitar Trio, I was always more impressed by Al Di Meola and Paco de Lucia, both technically and melodically, than John McLaughlin... .. and I am not saying that I am not a Mahavisnu fan, cos I am.. it's just that my personal preference keeps wanting to edit it...

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

@@Toby_iVapour I think those players play safer notes. Part of McLaughlin's influence is the incredible technique and the advanced harmony. Al Di Meola (whom I love too) plays must more linear sequences. much more logical note choices. The nods to free jazz just aren't there. I have always seen JM as having a foot in the avant garde which makes his playing more difficult and less easy to digest. He challenges the listener. When I hear him on 'Go Ahead John' off 'Big Fun' by Miles he goes to a territory no other fusion guitarist would go to. Same with 'Miles Beyond' off 'Inner worlds' Then you listen to 'The Dark Prince' off 'Electric Dreams' and hear not just the speed and precision but the note choice he is using on a chord esquence that difficult (This is the tune Jaco famously destroyed in the Trio of Doom, I have always suspected because he just couldn't keep up!)I can't think of any other guitarist (except perhaps Holdsworth) who can play at that level. For me JM is in his own category, because he is so far out...somewhere between Tal Farlow and Sonny Sharrock. Brutal...

@Toby_iVapour

3 жыл бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Far out.. too true... ;)

I agree with almost all of that. I would also have included the album "Johnny McLaughlin - Electric Guitarist" in it. Many of the tracks featured MO band members. It was more like a best bits compilation album but was not that. There were some very catchy tunes on it.

I remember seeing the original MO on tv when I was a child in the 70s. My uncle was really into them, raved about them. McLaughlin was the first genuine guitar god whose work I was ever familiar with, just iconic with that double neck SG. I certainly agree the first three efforts are the best, but Inner Worlds has sort of grown on me. The problem I've had with Inner Worlds is that rather than defining its time, as Inner Mounting Flame and Birds of fire did, IW is more a product of its time. A good example of this is The Way of the Pilgrim. Still a decent track, but not great. It almost sounds like the opening theme to a late 70s American tv melodrama.

@Jiv_Ing57819

3 жыл бұрын

Inner mounting flame at No 3 is sacrilege, is easily a number 2 number 1 album tops [:] 0

@Jiv_Ing57819

3 жыл бұрын

Ok he said if u r fan of music u should have a copy of this so that is the forgiver ,: 0

@Jiv_Ing57819

3 жыл бұрын

Now putting those high Birds of fire at No 2 would definitely guarantee sacrilege n re-missal, thankfully he has not done that ,: 0 Cool n I did get Visions of the emerald the other day, am looking forward listen ,: 0

@Jiv_Ing57819

3 жыл бұрын

And F reviewer for Visions, oh it's pretty good in spots, really good here but nah, WHAT, that's a review? And that's shaped my listening for past 13 years F hell n glad the fans r able 2 show us that it is actually good fs ,: 0

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

@@Jiv_Ing57819 Inner Mounting Flame is an amazing album. But...Billy's drums sound awful and there is no double kick which I think is key to their sound. There is no moog which is also key to their sound. The overall mix is pretty poor. It is the most important album in the catalogue but for me the MO is at their peak on One Word, Birds of Fire, Miles Beyond, Celestial Terrestrial Commuters and Sanctuary. Visions is an underated masterpiece. McLaughlin himself thinks it one of his greatest albums but the critics turned on them a bit. So people don't check it out. It is my favourite album of all time. So that is my justification for my ranking. Walter Kolosky who wrote the best book on the MO says above this is the best ranking video on youtube. But in the end it's just an opinion...

His vocabulary is rather limited to describe such sublime music.

Daunting, I know, but a top ten of Frank Zappa’s albums would be cool. The Mahavishnus opened a number of times for FZ’s band during the early ‘70s.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

Yes...i'm thinking of doing a 'must get' list of albums by Zappa. Way too many albums to rank though....

Like Children is the best album ever!

I love Mahavishnu (esp. The Inner Mounting Flame) but can't help thinking that it kinda sounds like video game music (which can be profoundly beautiful).. maybe it really influenced Japanese composers and their acolytes.. I don't really know the lineage but respect it.

he is out of his mind when he does not have between nothingnes and eternity as the best lp ever and i say the best side of songs is first side is inner mounting flame no doubt

Andy... has your heat been reconnected?

Here is my overview of John McLaughlin's solo albums: kzread.info/dash/bejne/e4Opo5J9Z7DbkrQ.html

I love the live album (full set) and Inner Mounting Flame. The crazier and rawer the better. Sadly, the Trident stuff sounds like cardboard. Live Sister Andrea is nuts. It makes me want to jump through glass doors.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

2 жыл бұрын

I fell asleep the other night with music on and when I awoke Sister Andrea was on...it sounded like something from another world and totally disorientated me...incredible

@billypaice8956

2 жыл бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Indeed. It is other worldly sounding - and funky! Billy chops it up with Jan. Cheers!

"Mc-laugh-lin" : love your videos and viewpoints & tastes in music but Johns name is as written

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for that. This has been debated here and apparently my pronunciation is not as far out as you think.

Apocalypse was recorded in 2 separate rooms because the London symphony was UNION and the Mahavishnu was NOT UNION so they could not record in the same room. My sister Carol Shive played in the second MO band.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

2 жыл бұрын

Oh my....Carol is a legend!!!! please send my best regards to her!!!

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

2 жыл бұрын

Have you seen my interview with Narada?

@brianshive362

2 жыл бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Carol is singing with the angels now-a-days. She lived a full and amazing life. She's had several serious health problems and was due for some-- "If I don't see you no more in this world Then I'll meet ya on the next one And don't be late Don't be late....

@brianshive362

2 жыл бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Killer interview. I was at SIR studios in NY and McLaughlin had just bought me a lefty guitar at Manny's and Narada came in and did a drum solo with just the two of us in the room. It lasted about 20 minutes and was as artistic a performance as I have ever seen (except for Billy in the first MO). He handed my his sticks when done and they are on my fireplace mantel to this day. I heard the first MO and next day called Carol and told her about the MO experience. She checked it out and called me a few months later as a MO member. Watching them compose, practice and jam was other worldly. Yours truly playing some JIMI.. kzread.info/dash/bejne/qnmnlpiYlKvFpbg.html

Inner Mounting Flame and Birds of Fire are compositionally the apex, removing those two from their discography leaves the biggest possible hole. If you have a really good audio system it's plain that neither one is very well recorded. Production and recording quality are not important variables in a well informed assessment of the band's output. Not including Devotion as one of the related recommendations excludes McLaughlin's most narcotic and mind altering psychedelic album.

Hi Andy, thank you for your excellent videos. However, please examine the phrase "Greatest of All Time" which you use frequently. What does it mean? You cannot possibly have heard all music, or, all the wonderful musicians that exist or have existed in this world. Many incredible musicians probably have never even been recorded. I think you should devote a video to examining that phrase, because so many people and music journos use it constantly and, I think, it means very little. Nevertheless, I dig your stuff!

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

Жыл бұрын

I do touch on this topic a lot, and with some humour. If you watch my 'biscuits' video or my video on prog mustaches you will see I use it with a slight sense of British irony.

@lmtownsend1

Жыл бұрын

Thanks Andy, I'll check it out.

Emerald - most sofisticated and deepest. Pure vision and trans, the essence . IMF - most surreal free creation. Other albums compared lack that intensity, balance and completeness. Next best thing of JMcL is that trio with Eckhart and Ghurtu. And most recent would be The Floating Point.

Is McLaughlin melodic in his soloing?

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

2 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/q4OOydWooK-nYcY.html

If you like this you can go deeper here: kzread.info/dash/bejne/q4Sru7mtk8fZn7g.html

Comment your favourite song down below, I'm curious 👇 Gotta be one word for me !

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

Possibly Lila's Dance? Or Birds of Fire?

@lesnyk255

3 жыл бұрын

Boy, that's a tough one - I'd have to agree with Lila's Dance - or maybe Noonward Race - or Be Happy - One Word - problem is, I've heard him playing better versions from those issued on LP or CD, like The Wall Will Fall - ask me again tomorrow, I'll have a different list........

@cocoluco54

3 жыл бұрын

@@lesnyk255 noonward race ,meeting of the Spirit are probably runner up for me.

Jean-Luc ain't Jerry. Ill check out Apoocalyse. I was disappointed with Love Devotion Surrender with Santana.

@paulkazakoff9231

3 жыл бұрын

No he's not but he fitted the bill perfectly when I saw that version of M.O.Brilliant performance by all.

Well, a lot of subjective opinions. Birds of Fire - most complete. Apocalypse is very nice - spiritual flow. Inner Mountin Flame is beginning breaktrough surprise. Visions... When i bought this record I was disapointed - no energy of MO. It is John's album, but anyway special. It is unpossible to say, which album is "The best". But Birds are most classical profile of MO creativity (in all aspects).

ANDY you gave woefully short shrift to Unreleased Tracks from Between Nothingness And Eternity. The full double live album HAS to be #1. No, the sound is not as good as what MO did on the studio records. But the PLAYING is head and shoulders above that of any other live jam or fusion or rock band. It is utterly brilliant. Check out the live ONE WORD. Swing and a miss, mate!

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

I decided to rate BNAE as it was released in the seventies. If I did count those tracks I would rate higher the unreleased Live at Cleveland album (which has been bootlegged as 'Wild Strings') as the playing surpasses BNAE. Also check out the playing on the Mar Y Sol album. This is MO playing live at their peak. Towards the end I felt, although still amazing, they were tired and falling into extended solo spots and the interplay between the band was not quite as insane as it was earlier. So once you expand what you are going to rate it would change this rating entirely.

Why would you even think of comparing John McLaughlin to Eddie Van Halen? There were actually only 5 Mahavishnu Orchestra albums. 6 if you want to include The Lost Trident Sessions.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

Listen to his solo on Nightriders.

@iananderson7883

3 жыл бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer OK. Half of it maybe remotely. I don't think it was intentional. Actually saw him on that tour. Everyone was complaining about the synth axe afterwards. He didn't even pull out a Les Paul. It was all synth axe and even I thought he got a wee bit carried away with it. The Inner Mounting Flame should have been #1.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

@@iananderson7883 My comment was related to how instrumental albums were being marketed at the time.

@iananderson7883

3 жыл бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Sorry but I just don't follow you. What does that have to do with an Eddie Van Halen/John McLaughlin comparison?????

@paulkazakoff9231

3 жыл бұрын

@@iananderson7883 Right I don't see much similarity at all with those 2.

Why didn't Billy Cobham play in the Apocalypse album?

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

In 1973 the original Mahavishnu fell apart after two of the members criticized John in a magazine article and they ended up no longer on speaking terms. Although this didn't directly involve Cobham the original band was over and JM had reformed a new band with Sri Chinmoy devotees in it. Apocalyspe was made in 1974

@magn8195

3 жыл бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer ok thanks a lot for the insight!

@lesnyk255

3 жыл бұрын

BC & JM had reconciled by the time 1984's "Mahavishnu" was recorded, and according to an interview with BC in Down Beat, Cobham had cleared his schedule so he could go on tour with the band, only to learn after the fact that McLaughlin had signed up Danny Gottlieb instead. He was understandably bitter about that, and declared in the interview that he'd "never play with John McLaughlin again", a vow he kept for nearly 20 years.

@magn8195

3 жыл бұрын

@@lesnyk255 I've heard concerts with BC, JM, Stu Goldberg and Jack Bruce in 1978. BC must have been quite resentful at the time with JM.

Birds of Fire is overrated, IMO. Yes, the sound is better than on Flame, but the compositions aren't as interesting as IMF's. Some of the tracks seem like weak rehashes (e.g. Thousand Island Park of Lotus on Irish Streams) and lots of similar licks. And, to me, the tunes under 4 minutes don't stretch enough or go anywhere at all. I saw the Birds tour and enjoyed the Flame tunes more at that show. Birds is still a good album, but not a great one in my book. (Only Inner Worlds and Adventures are stinkers) I agree about the two 80s albums but I saw that group live and it was far better. Bill Evans tore it up, McLaughlin's guitar synth and Gottlieb's drums sounded great and Hellborg played a cool solo version of Little Wing. I also saw the Apocalypse tour (awesome) and saw John 9 other times including the farewell tour in 2017 where he played many of the best early Mahavishnu tunes. My favorites in no particular order: Inner Mounting Flame / Apocalypse / Between Nothingness and Eternity / Visions of the Emerald Beyond Also a big fan of John's Electric Guitarist album (1978) with Goodman, Cobham, Santana, Costner, Tony Williams, Corea, Walden and several other great players. Eclectic bunch of awesome tunes and wonderful playing. Probably John's most diverse set of guitar sounds on any alum. That should have been included in the 'related albums' list (Monday morning quarterbacking is so easy 🙂) Just my opinions of course. There is no right or wrong about subjective assessments. I appreciate your effort in making the video. Well done.

He couldn't be more wrong to put The Inner Mounting Flame at number 3!? ...what nonsense! First off, it was with the first line up which was far and away their best. It was their "punk" version of Mahavishnu with that raw sound, recording, and totally abandoned soloing. And how can can you compare the compositions on The Inner Mounting Flame to anything else they ever did!? From the compositions alone it's right up there with Birds of Fire which has more of the production qualities you'd expect. They will always be number one and two albums of that great band.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

2 жыл бұрын

I hope I explained my case in the video. The other day I sat down and played my students IMF and VoTEB. They were interested by IMF but VoTEB properly blew them away and they all rushed to make a note of that album. in innovative terms IMF is the first and the best but it lacks the moog and the double bass drums that really for me define the MO sound. And the production is pretty awful, esp. regarding the drums that simply sound tiny

@timages

2 жыл бұрын

You totally don't get the raw incredibly innovative appeal of that album and music, from a certain standard it's the best music they ever did. You can only speak soon in terms of production values and recording which is Not Music! And you're the only person to ever define The Mahavishnu Orchestra by the sound of a Moog!? Are you joking! Jerry Goodman's violin, McLaughlin's guitar and Billy's drums are somehow background music? The mere fact that you put a very commercial second band record ahead of the incomparable Inner Mountain Flame makes a less musical listener than a true musician and devotee of this great band.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

2 жыл бұрын

@@timages To say i don't get the first album is ridiculous, it changed my life. And it's also ridiculous to say BoF is commercial. So let's talk music: Birds of Fire is similar to Dance of Maya the concept has been taken further out, the compound 9/8 drums against the 5+5+5+3 guitar/keys vamp is groundbreaking, and yes Jan's keyboard solo turned the world on it's head and that sound inspired Chick Corea to form the second RTF. Celestrial Terrestrial Commuters again pushes the envelope further out, no one had heard a rhythmic structure like that. Nothing on IMF is near it. It's in 19/16 and broke new ground. One Word is perhaps Mahavishnu's greatest moment and again there is nothing on IMF like those revolving solos they do, which get shorter every time until it reaches pure chaos. Thousand Island Park is their greatest acoustic moment and Sanctuary is simply sublime. No band has ever created a 'ballad' like that. On One Word Cobham also develops Max Roach's ostinato approach defining drum soloing in the years to come. IMF broke new ground without a doubt but BoF went deeper

@timages

2 жыл бұрын

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I never said Birds of Fire was commercial, you're saying that. The second best album you had as the second MO's, " Images of the Emerald Beyond" that was what I was referring to when I wrote, " a very commercial second band record" There's no way in hell that's a better album than, "The Inner Mounting Flame" ...impossible! For one, perhaps the defining composition of the entire band's songbook is, "The Meeting of the Spirits" there's nothing close on Emerald to that, nothing! We obviously have very different tastes and appreciation for this great band, the first incarnation of Mahavishnu for me is the very finest music of the jazz fusion genre, ( with the exception of the first RTF, Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy with the astounding Bill Connors on guitar, after he left I never listened to their music anymore, the other guitarist was not in his league), I hope this music survives another 50 years, cheers.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

2 жыл бұрын

@@timages Visions of the Emerald Beyond is my favourite album of all time and Lila's Dance equal to Meeting of the Spirits. And the last track is further out than aything the original MO recorded. It's McLaughlin's masterpiece.

Imho birds is overrated album. I mean its brilliant but people often disrespect other albums just because they like birds most, which is completely subjective. For me, vision, apocalypse are maybe even better and flames also certainly aint weaker, and people also bash hard 80s albums, and although they are different, it doesnt mean they are bad, its just peoples prejudice and childish expectations are the problem... No disrespect ment. Oh yeah, lost trident sessions kick ass.

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, but that approach would mean making a video where you do rank the albums pretty hard....

Extrapolation......

What makes one the worst? A lack of the listeners intelligence & understanding?

@AndyEdwardsDrummer

3 жыл бұрын

The structure and nature of a ranking video is what makes one better or worse. It's like clicking on a video of swans mating, it may well contain swans mating.

Mahavishnu Orch was ONLY the first 2 records because McLaughlin was writing collectively among equals within the band!(which as you know caused the problems!) All subsequent albums are McLaughlin's singular vision of the original MO so, it isn't really MO.