I mean, David Tennant does have a very non-movement-based approach to kissing in general, as far as I can find, but also... I think the kiss is absolutely brilliant. Because it's not supposed to be a good kiss. It was NEVER supposed to be a good kiss. Those are not two middle-aged humans kissing, those are two ancient supernatural entities whose frame of reference for romance is literally Jane Austen and Richard Curtis movies. This is their FIRST KISS. And they're not like humans who know that they'll eventually want to kiss someone and practice beforehand. They are beyond ill-prepared. It's the most awkward and uncomfortable kiss in tv history, because what else would it be? It's a kiss between two entities who are quite literally not made for this. It's Crowley choosing a human way to get his emotions across because romance movies made him believe in the cliche of "one fabulous kiss and we're good", and Aziraphale not knowing how to handle it, because while he might have spent the whole season doing his best impression of a pick me girl, he's still a millenia-old angel who spent his entire existence believing that asexuality was built into his genes and that even liking a demon was against the natural order of things. Even the sappy music conveys perfectly what that kiss was. A tone-deaf, desperate, and completely overwhelming last-ditch effort leaning on outdated and cliched romance stereotypes that don't FIT. Smashing their mouths together is not how they show their love and it did nothing to fix their divide.

@kore5080

10 ай бұрын

Some commentator in another video (apologies for not being able to give specific credit where due) pointed out that the music during the kiss a callback to their first meeting at the creation.

@HuntingViolets

10 ай бұрын

Have you seen Tennant's kiss with Sophia Myles on _Doctor Who?_

@HuntingViolets

10 ай бұрын

Well, the kiss wouldn't have fixed all the issues even if they were human. Kisses aren't a quick fix for everything in a relationship.

As someone who really loves the book and has been watching the show non-stop, I really liked this video. I agree that some of the side characters feel a little flat, and I completely agree with your political analysis of it (which honestly is more in-depth than what I’ve seen from a lot of fans). However, I do think that the confession scene was really well done. It feels repetitive because every argument with them is the exact same (let’s run away vs let’s stay and fix it) and it never gets resolved. The kiss felt clunky and disjointed because Crowley’s a demon attempting to use human physical affection to prove his feelings instead of just EXPLAINING his thought process with Aziraphale& having a conversation. And they go their separate ways, because Aziraphale believes the system can be fixed while Crowley believes it needs to be avoided. Neil Gaiman said that while Good Omens is a love story and Crowley&Aziraphale ARE romantic, the kiss itself WASNT romantic: it was a replacement for a true conversation where they try to understand one another. Which is why I believe s3 WILL actually have them discuss&resolve their conflicting viewpoints, and I have hope it will be a very fulfilling and satisfying 3rd arc. (I do also doubt there will be another kiss, though, and I agree the ending will probably be kind of… ambiguously happy). Anyways, sorry for rambling this long in your comment section- loved the video!

@HuntingViolets

10 ай бұрын

I really hope there is another kiss next season. I was okay with the ending of season one, but they can't have them kiss and then go back to that. (Technically, they can, but it would be very unsatisfactory and unsatisfying.) Crowley has probably never kissed anyone before, and he isn't getting to try it out at a romantic moment at the ball or after declaring himself in the way he had imagined, and he was hurt and angry and desperate, so, yeah. I don't need a full-on sex scene, and I do want them to talk and _understand_ and figure things out, but no way do I think Aziraphale is not going to want to try that again, and I do want to see a kiss or kisses under better circumstances. I do really love that Crowley went ahead and declared himself even though it was killing him. Most of the time, when the other person tells their wrench-throwing news, the would-be declarer will say what they wanted to say wasn't important or mention some trivial thing and that is always so annoying. You speak your truth, Crowley; good for you.

@Shonalika

10 ай бұрын

Yes it does make sense if that's the plotline they were going for! My issues were really more to do with their choices of this exact structure and plotline within the broader context of how queer characters tend to be treated onscreen. (And as I said did gain a respect for the choice afterwards). No need for apology, comments all lengths are appreciated :) thank you!!

@theanswerisowl

10 ай бұрын

I think it's necessariy to have them kiss again, this time both receptive, from a narrative point. You just need that to bring it full circle to a satisfying conclusion, plus it's already established they will get their happy ending.

@fairywingsonroses

10 ай бұрын

@@theanswerisowl I think it will be necessary for them to kiss again as well, if for no other reason than to have continuity with other things that they characters have done and experienced repeatedly together as a form of bonding (eating, magic, general shenanigans, etc.). Having them kiss again as receptive and consensual partners is a logical next step in their bonding process. That being said, I really hope it's not in the last scene/episode that this happens. I agree with others when they argue that gay/queer relationships deserve more happy, consistent moments, and also because I agree with the notion that the entire season with Crowley and Aziraphale at odds with each other only to kiss and make up at the end feels like an empty trope without a lot of good subplot or character development. They need to kiss again, and it needs to happen fairly early in the season, even if it's not the grandiose, happily-ever-after type of kiss.

@theanswerisowl

10 ай бұрын

@@fairywingsonroses Totally with you. If the writers really keep them apart for most/basically all of it, then they'd show how much they did not understand about the reasons people watch their show in the first place. I worry they might indeed not understand. There's already such limited time and I do hope they don't waste any on plot and side charas, but give us what we want, which is Aziraphale and Crowley, together.

The choice to have aziraphale be the one with an understanding of community and not crowley is really really interesting and I'm hoping it will go somewhere. Crowley becomes a great demonstration of how damaging it can be to try and solve all the problems yourself. Thanks for articulating!!

I disagree with the video as a whole but mainly with the bit about the kiss scene, cause the awkward way it was filmed was done on purpose as well as Aziraphale's chaotic facial expressions and hand movements. The kiss wasn't really supposed to be a proof of their love, it was supposed to be a desperate attempt on Crowley's part to make Azi stay. If you want a proof of love just watch the rest of the show it's that simple. The kiss literally wasn't supposed to be nice it was supposed to be frustrating. About "The gays aren't allowed to have fun" or whatever you said: it's only been two seasons, i know way slower burns than this. And without a bit of angst, any show would be over as soon as it started. I'm not worried about the contents of season 3 (if there is one). I'm fairly certain it will end with a happy ending

5:32: "Gays are not allowed to have fun"--But surely the season shows them having fun and enjoying each other's company several times--magic store shopping, candlelight dinner, joking about the Gabriel statue, creating the nebula, eating/drinking in Job's cellar?

I hope that season 3 does provide people who want to see Azi and Crow as a healthy happy relationship, the closure they need. That said. I loved the kiss. If the show ended here, I'd be in the back of the pack of people wanting to angrily chase down Gaiman, but as an end to a second act. I found it incredible beautiful and sad. I think the show is really smart, moving the juxterposition from "we can't be together because, gay." to: "We are two beings, who began life thinking love, relationship, sex and romance was never an option, who has fallen for someone who is technically the enemy, with the pressure of two disaproving systems weighing down on us threatening our existance. And just as we have began to break free and enjoy humanity, the system that made us wants to destroy that humanity. And we disagree on how we will handle that and what we think about the system." Point is. It's complicated. I am optimistic season 3 will provide a happily ever after, so I am happy with this sad ending.

@83croissant

10 ай бұрын

You said this very well, and graciously. I just can’t comprehend how some people see it as a defect that…stories have interpersonal conflict ? The nature of stories with a focus on character and relationships is that they have internal conflict and not just external conflict. Why can’t they be happy and together??? -- THEY’RE GONNA BE ! It’s a romantic comedy within an epic fantasy. There’s a three act structure thing going on . They ended in the most emotionally impactful way possible and everything about their characters led up to this. They’ve been imperfect at communicating the whole way here -- “I feel like your exactly and my exactly are different” 😂 I mean come on now

@HuntingViolets

10 ай бұрын

@@83croissant I agree with this, but I do think the video had interesting things to say and I hope there will be a (more satisfied) followup video after season three.

@HuntingViolets

10 ай бұрын

Yes, I loved this show in an almost unhinged way.

@susanmiller9317

10 ай бұрын

​@@83croissantI loved that line, "I feel like your exactly and my exactly are different exactlies." I loved how, in the heat of anger, there was that emotionally respectful pause to clarify the situation. It showed how far they'd come from the first season, where they would disagree and storm off without any attempt to clarify, like they did in the 2nd season when their communication had evolved. "Go? So this is how you want to do it?" "No, I would love for you to stay and help me." My husband and I were married for 20 years before divorcing. If we'd been able to clarify our exactlies like Crowley and Aziraphale, we might have made it a lot longer.

I saw Crowley as not literally starting the whole universe - he was supervising one section, its a callback to the comment in season one when he said he worked on the horsehead nebula. He seemed like more of a middle manager-- he outranks Aziraphale but he's not an archangel . We know he's at minimum a throne because he knew the password. Some people are obsessed with fan theories about him being a former archangel, and which one he was. I don't like this speculation, feels like digging into his deadname. Surprised to hear Gabriel and Beelz might be in series 3! I had read that the writing of series 2 was about setting things up for series 3 to take place so it was partly about getting some extraeneous characters out of the way.

@HuntingViolets

10 ай бұрын

I don't want to find out his old name (even though he didn't choose to give it up, he has moved on now) or find out that he was a super high-powered archangel. I will accept it if it happens, but it kind of feels like the theories that Shakespeare couldn't have written the plays that seem to boil down to his not being high-born enough so of course it was some earl, and I don't like that a bit.

@maizie9454

10 ай бұрын

i dont want to see threm again. theyre not that great. im a lot more interested im crowleys new life

@83croissant

10 ай бұрын

@@maizie9454 I would be surprised if they came back. As I recall they were told something like “if you make this choice, understand, you can never return” their little arc is complete, they served a purpose

@KeitieKalopsia

10 ай бұрын

I doubt they were getting rid of Boxfly as extraneous characters because if that were the case, Gabriel would’ve never existed in the first place. He didn’t play a role in the book, so introducing him in the show must have been for a reason.

@83croissant

10 ай бұрын

@@KeitieKalopsia they introduced him on the show for a purpose, to be the face of the antagonists , heaven. Now they’ve expanded Metatron’s role and made Shax prince of hell they don’t have that purpose, they’ve been replaced. In season three they would have to find some thing for them to do , and there’s so much going on and for six episodes they really have to be economical with storytelling. Beelzebub and Gabriel don’t care about earth and that hadn’t changed because they fell in love. They still don’t. It’s neat and tidy. I don’t count on them returning Gaiman has said they borrowed some of the scrapped book sequel ideas he and Pratchett planned , and used them in the show so far. But the third season is not going to be exactly like what the sequel book would be

I would argue that Aziraphale doesn't really have "meaningful" relationships with anyone other than Crowley. He has relationships, yes, but that's mostly because he's kind to people; whereas, Crowley is harsh and dismissive. He's Maggie's landlord, he mostly talks to Nina about general daily happenings, and the head of the shopkeeper's association doesn't seem to like him much. He really has no relationship at all with the other angels (Crowley at least talks to Shax, even if they aren't really friends). These are all shallow relationships that revolve more around his proximity to existing with them than on actual emotional bonds. Add this to the fact that both characters are a bit extremist when it comes to managing their emotions/impulses. Crowley has a temper, and Aziraphale has almost zero ability to regulate anything he does (i.e. Crowley offers him one bite of food, and he eats half the ox. Crowley suggests a more dazzling act for the magic show, and he insists on doing the most dangerous one, etc.). Aziraphale absolutely relies on Crowley to be able to find that middle ground/gray area. He cannot find it on his own. This is made obvious when he destroys his halo (an act of war) when tasked with figuring out how to defeat a few demons in Crowley's absence. Surely, there was a better solution there, but it's pretty firmly established that Crowley is the more "middle ground" person when it comes to solving certain types of problems (though he has his own extreme tendencies in other areas). The only thing Aziraphale has that Crowley lacks is a (mostly) unwavering faith in the system (though given his unhealthy relationship with the system, I think we will see that start to falter). They are both super codependent on each other in really unhealthy ways, and yes, they both need more friends.

I agree that the writing of the side characters was flat and weak, which is a shame since they had a lot of potential. I do not agree about the last scene. If in the first season the main pair had a "happily ever after", here we see them struggling with a quite realistic situation: two people who love each other but see the world in different ways and cannot communicate well, it happens to a lot of couples, who cannot see and understand each other due to different perceptions of reality at the moment, and are, at the moment, blind to each other's needs. I do not see it as a "bury your gays' trope". For me, they are just lovers we are invested in, and Gaiman does the right thing in trying to develop their characters and let them grow before they get their happy ending. The miserable kiss was a perfect portrayal of Crowley, a (probably) sexless being, trying to imitate what he sees in movies, in a desperate attempt to make Aziraphale change his mind. So it was, indeed, ugly.

@user-yo3er2wb5p

10 ай бұрын

exactly. even if they’ll never kiss again in season 3 I will be totally fine with it, because the show have already spent a quiet amount of screen time showing that they love each other, and that they care. care a lot. the existence of their love itself (which is obvious and VERY difficult to be ignored) is more important than the manifestation of it through traditionally romantic physical ways. i don’t support the attempt to mix all queer media together just to pick up “tropes” and stretch them to things much more complicated, ignoring the context of the story, lore, etc. (the author of the video would probably consider me a “normie” for this kinda opinion lmaoooo)

I absolutely love good omens (both first and second season and also the book), and I don't really agree with all you say in the video, but I'am glad you shared your thoughts! All I have seen people unconditionally loving the show (me included ehem...) and I loved to see someone exposing its flaws that of cours it has. It's not perfect, but it has something amazingly sweet and comforting, even with the angst, and it gets people involved with the main characters to an incredibly extent (I also really like Nina and Maggie actually, but I can see why they are not the best ship). Anyways, loved the video, thank u

@HuntingViolets

10 ай бұрын

When they brought Nina Sosanya in to play Nina, I wasn't going to have much of an objection. Of course I've seen her in a lot of things (including the first season of this show), but I would mention here that she was on _Last Tango in Halifax._ This show was about two older people, who had dated as teens, and rekindle their relationship later, while dealing with their adult children, etc. Derek Jacobi (the Metatron) played the male lead, and Sosanya was the love interest of the female lead's daughter. Things went better for Maggie and Nina, I'll say that.

Mad respect for how you described their ideologies without using the normal terms. Now I can just steal this whenever telling someone why it's useless to reform a corrupt system

Ok honestly thank you so much for this. You managed to tie up all of the little thoughts I had about the show these last weeks. I was incredibly emotional about the ending but after a day or two I started to really appreciate the depth of character politics and the last episode. Also valid criticism all around. You saying the show isn't just gay but queer will stick with me.

I read the "I forgive you" as forgiveness for the surprise non-consensual kiss.

@Simon-ow6td

10 ай бұрын

Same!

@FrolleinFroschbein

10 ай бұрын

Not just that. It was a desperate attempt of Crowley to manipulate Aziraphale into staying and he understood that. He wanted to give in to his feelings for Crowley, but that's forbidden for angels, so to stay himself, he forgave him. You can clearly see a very short expression of anger on his face after the kiss.

@maizie9454

10 ай бұрын

i didnt. thats just a reflex response when az doesnt comprehend.

@HuntingViolets

10 ай бұрын

@@maizie9454 Yes, he's very good at forgiving, and Crowley has told Aziraphale he himself is unforgivable (among other things), which is probably part of the reason Aziraphale might have felt Crowley would consider going back to Heaven. To be fair, we also saw Crowley alone last season and angsting over his fall ("I didn't mean to fall; I just hung around with the wrong people"). And Aziraphale remembers Crowley being so happy making the stars, a thing that Crowley may or may not recall.

@kore5080

10 ай бұрын

Aziraphale tends to forgive Crowley when he can't handle or sort out his own emotions, so he dumps the responsibility for them on Crowley.

15:04 the book says angels and demons are “sexless,” and in-show, Crowley is in feminine clothing not just when portraying a nanny the first season but also at the crucifixion

@wangxian_

10 ай бұрын

and Noah's ark scene

@FrolleinFroschbein

10 ай бұрын

Also, when the "seamstress" tells him he's a "good lad" he answers "Neither, but thanks". Crowley is definitely female coded. That walk isn't just a snake that just grew feet.

@shaynaformity1384

10 ай бұрын

In the first scene of season 2, Angel!Crowley's hairstyle is that of June from the 1946 film A Matter of Life and Death. Random fact: that movie was also the origin of the escalator to heaven.

@letolethe3344

10 ай бұрын

@@FrolleinFroschbein I read that as "not a lad" as in, not a mortal man (or boy), not referring to his gender.

@FrolleinFroschbein

10 ай бұрын

@@letolethe3344 and that's the glorious thing about it as well: it can be read on multiple levels.

You are very well-spoken but the only thing I agree with is that the lesbians didn't have any chemistry at all, but that's not a bad thing either, because the main characters are the ones who the audience roots for, the rest of the characters are there as an embellishment and they shouldn't take over the storytelling, they are there to aid the main story, to move it forward, so for that purpose Maggie and Nina were great. The kiss scene was absolutely perfect and it's meant to feel very awkward, because Crowley himself feels extremely lost and confused and awkward about all this and about the notion of expressing his inner turmoil and feelings for this angel and Azi is this somewhat autistic and neurotic entity who NEVER understands the true meaning of the things Crowley tells him or does in general (like him suggesting they could kill the antichrist sitting on a bench in Season 1), Azi literally needs things to be spelled out to him, so being attacked by Crowley's lips must have been extremely confusing and frustrating, Michael Sheen nailed the reaction of the character, his face expresses utter confusion, irritation and frustration with this demon until the very end when Crowley leaves the room, that's when it finally dawns on him, that's when we see the aftermath of that kiss, Azi realizing that he actually really loves him back and now he's lost him... Not a fan of Gaiman either but the direction for this scene was perfect, the angles they covered are the most important ones for the story, especially the shoulder touch, that touch had the hidden seed of Azi's deep desire for Crowley, that touch was everything, you don't need to see their lips touching on screen in order to feel the intimacy of the moment, that touch encompassed everything this character feels for the other. Also, this kiss was not meant to be a lifechanging kiss that these two characters need to share with each other and enjoy it at this time in their lives, this kiss was just a byproduct of Crowley's hopeless effort to make this angel stay, hence his glasses being on, but if there is a third season that's when the audience will get the real kiss they are dreaming about, because both sides will be doing the kiss for the right reasons the second time around lol. The one thing I would have appreciated is if they showed POV of Azi looking out the window seeing Crowley standing there at his car when he was talking to the Metatron, I was definitely waiting for that shot (desperately) but it didn't come, I wonder if they shot it at all or whether they cut it out.

@letolethe3344

10 ай бұрын

Genuinely curious--what makes you think Az is autistic?

@Art-ificial_I-ntelligence

10 ай бұрын

haha, the way he is disconnected from the reality, he's aloof and fixated on just one thing: saving the world, when in reality it's an unrealistic desire to have and Crowley literally needs to spell out stuff to him, that is the main reason Crowley has so much compassion for him and is always patient and almost never gets deeply mad at him, that's why he always keeps trying to persuade Azi to run away with him, because he knows Azi is out of touch with reality and is hopelessly romantic and optimistic by nature, he knows Azi always needs a constant reassurance and a reminder that the two of them will be fine without heaven and hell. Plus Azi is a total perfectionist and has moderate to severe OCD, the way he wants to execute things and nothing will persuade him otherwise, like when he's trying to investigate the song mystery or when he's planning the whole shopkeepers meeting in tiny detail, he's a bit like me, I'm very much like that when I have a vision/quest, so I recognized it right away lol@@letolethe3344

@susanmiller9317

10 ай бұрын

Thank you for speaking on the tremendous significance of the brief shoulder touch. I agree the editing could have been a bit more seamless, but that embrace showed a brief moment of Aziraphale kissing Crowley back. I wonder if we will see some miracle-ish significance to that brief union, some protection or communication born of that bond that may be significant in the third season. The angelic singing (nightingales?) creshendoed at that exact moment, and Crowley is clairvoyant....

re: the gender stuff, Neil Gaiman has spoken about it a lot on tumblr and confirmed the genderless nature of angels/demons (: its interesting to read

@HuntingViolets

10 ай бұрын

Unless they make an effort.

Nice to hear your thoughts on this! But I think I disagree regarding the homophobic conflict during the kiss. I think Aziraphale said the "I forgive you" because Crowley kissed him in order to persuade him and he felt abused. He knew Crowleys feelings were real and Crowley didn't mean to hurt him, that's why he forgave him. But also, as you said, he disagreed with Crowley and still believed in heaven being able to be fixed, and he believed in his duty, which is why he had to leave Crowley in spite of his feelings for him. Since Azi has already been quite affectionate to Crowley in the past (e.g. touching), I can't really imagine him having an issue with acting gay and feeling the need to forgive someone (including himself) for it.

@susanmiller9317

10 ай бұрын

Yeah, to me, some of the "I forgive you," might have referenced to violation of personal space in such a forceful manner. The roughing up by the "bad angels" and the season 1 abduction are the only times we see Aziraphale facing physical force and bodily violation.

@HuntingViolets

10 ай бұрын

@@susanmiller9317 Agree those are the only times we see that, although I imagine it's happened a few more times; I doubt his arrest in France was gentle, for instance,

@HuntingViolets

10 ай бұрын

Yes, he touches Crowley a fair amount (and Crowley never seems put off by this, for that matter) and also looks Crowley up and down in a certain way it's pretty hard to put down as "just being bros." Although a lot of people want them to be asexual romantic, I certainly don't think the show is against a gay reading. (I know they're not human, but they mostly present as human males; it's their preferred shape, and the show isn't made for sexless (unless they try) immortal beings to watch, although I'm sure they're welcome to; it's made for humans.)

@narnigrin

9 ай бұрын

Yeah, it's also like - Aziraphale doesn't seem to have much of a problem doing capital S Sinful stuff, see eg. scarfing down half an ox, lying and deceiving (if badly/adorably) to get and/or keep books, making suggestive noises while eating a dessert, or whatever; homophobia doesn't really play into it I think - it's the demon aspect and him now feeling the need to play by heaven's rules (which, again, apparently allow him frequent gluttony, avarice, etc without any trouble). Snogging would be one thing, but snogging a DEMON specifically is no bueno.

@HuntingViolets

9 ай бұрын

@@narnigrin What I find interesting that is seldom talked about is that, with The Arrangement, Aziraphale goes and does Crowley's tempting for him (and Crowley goes and does Aziraphale's blessing assignments for him, although I suspect Aziraphale is also doing a lot of unauthorized blessings), which is an extraordinary crossing of the line if you stop and think about it for a minute. I'm not entirely certain there wasn't a snog in 1941 (or that they at least didn't come close). I imagine there will be a part three of 1941 when we will also see what leads to the apology dance and maybe get to see it.

P.S anyone interested in the outro music, it’s from my new EP ‘XXX’ out now across streaming platforms. I know the genre is super niche BUT it’s been a long-term project of mine and it would mean the world to me if you checked it out (and maybe passed along to someone else if it’s not your thing 🖤). shonalika.bandcamp.com/album/xxx

I’ll have to finish this tomorrow as I’m falling asleep but so far, at the 15 minute mark, I’m very much in line with what you’re saying! I’m annoyed by how this ended but understand that it’s a setup for a final moment of them being together in the end. I just wish these stories could be less pining and more actual life together.

@HuntingViolets

10 ай бұрын

I do worry about this. I want them to spend a lot of next season together, not just be together at the end.

I think Az might say "I forgive you" for several reasons. It looks like he's about to say "I love you" but I think he feels inhibited still by his role (as he sees it) of guardian of humanity. He feels committing to C only by saying "I love you" (not heaven AND C, which is what he offers C) would be selfish and only be good for him. He might think Crowley's being manipulative for choosing that moment to do this, when they're parting company. He's likely angry b/c Crowley is throwing away, in his mind, a chance to be together and is belittling Az's desire to help humans by improving heaven. Also, the kiss is extremely aggressive and without his consent.

@HuntingViolets

10 ай бұрын

He does say "I l--" and then stops himself. (Sans serif fonts make the capital I and the lower-case L so difficult, I swear.)

@narnigrin

9 ай бұрын

@@HuntingViolets I've seen other video essays argue that he mouths "I can't", which isn't as clear of a communication as stopping himself from saying "I love you" but fits really well - he does love his demon, but this was an extremely bad time for a kiss (whether he'd have even wanted one at a better time is irrelevant), because he believes has a Duty(tm) to perform now to Reform(tm) heaven, and to do that he has to play by their rules and be accepted by them, and snogging a demon is pretty much the exact opposite of playing by heaven's rules. Personally, I don't mind whether it's "I love--" or "I can't", tbh. Just wanted to put this one out there too.

@HuntingViolets

9 ай бұрын

@@narnigrin I've played it back a few times, and it sounds like he's saying "I lo--" to me (although I realize that isn't your main consideration here). He then stops for a moment and says, "I forgive you" (somewhat angrily, really). I'm sure this isn't exactly how he's fantasized Crowley kissing him. (Or how Crowley thought about doing it, either.) Everything has just gone from a few pebbles to an avalanche out of their control for the moment. They both need time to think, and they have no time.

Thanks Shonalika! Glad you liked it better after sitting on it a bit. I personally am I slut for the angst.

Now, I rewatched the last episode, and it cannot be that they meant for Gabriel to come back. I don’t know where you heard that was what they intended. The powers of heaven and hell told Gabriel and Beelzebub, when they asked to go away together, “you understand, if you do this, you can NEVER COME BACK” (emphasis mine) Gabriel and Beelzebub’s love is very centered around Gabriel and Beelzebub. They each care about exactly one other person now. They wouldn’t come back for anything, but also possibly they physically and metaphysically can’t. It’s like the writing is completely tying up that arc. This frees up things for other characters to come back. Maybe Hastur? Aziraphale and Crowley have bonded over their shared love of the terrestrial. Crowley was willing to give it all up to save Crowley and Aziraphale and be together. Aziraphale wanted them to be together, in heaven, and was willing to give up the bookshop if that would save them, and save EARTH. He declined the job before Metatron said Crowley could come too. He didn’t want to leave Crowley and his bookshop. But now he has to, to save the Earth and perhaps keep Crowley safe as well . Crowley also , so obviously doesn’t mean “You can’t leave this bookshop” literally-of course he was just saying let’s go away together, is that not asking him to leave the bookshop , too??? He meant “you can’t leave me” and Aziraphale didn’t pick up on it.

According to the book, Angels and Demons are all agender and don't have private parts unless they make an Effort. Also, Angels and Demons present in different ways, including pronouns, and this can change over time. So far, the only non-human beings that have used more than one pronoun/presentation are Crowley (usually masculine presenting, feminine presenting as Nanny Ashtoreth and in Golgotha, non-binary presenting in Rome) and God (referred to as He in the Bible, She by Aziraphale, and They by Job), though Neil was supposedly toying with the idea of a scene with both Crowley and Aziraphale presenting feminine in the '60s but the idea was scrapped. If you recall in season 2 episode 5, Mrs. Sandwich tells Crowley "You're a good lad." to which he responds "I'm not, actually. Either. But thank you." This goes along with the theme of him denying his own goodness but also clarifying that he's not a lad. Finally, the book also explains that, despite most people's first impression of Aziraphale being that he is "gayer than a treeful of monkeys on nitrous oxide," he actually isn't gay because his is agender. This cements that any romantic relationship an Angel or Demon has is not gay or straight, but is always fundamentally queer.

I agree 100% with this, i'm a really big fan of the show ever since 2019 and i was hyping so much the 2nd season and, frankly, it wasn´t as goos as i thought it would be. There are some parts that even feel as a fanfic and the writing is a little bit lacking unlike the first season. I already knew the existance of Inneffable bureoucracy (gabriel x beelzebub) but the way it was screened made it feel like it came out of nowhere, the minisodes were both a blessing and a curse because, yes, the wee morag and job stories were really good and further both the theme of Crowley being dissapointed with heaven and aziraphale failing to see the realities of heaven as an institution but the third one, the zombie nazis one went way too long and wasn´t even that entertaining, it serves to see the level of trust crowley and aziraphale have for one another but it could have been done way quicker and furfur didn't need a backstory. In fact, i believe they could have used the screentime from that part to further the main plot whic feels actually rather small, maybe if they have put some of the beelz x gabriel flashbacks during the course of the six episodes it may have built up to the twist of jim/gabriel and the character of beelz, man if they have just put some little scenes with belzebub kinda getting worried about gabriel or a little more invested into where he is it could have been better. Also, about the maggie and nina plot, it was pretty obvious that they weren't gonna end together but, as you said, it feels really weird that they advise crowley, and the realization of them being in love wasn't really well written since, even though it's obvious, from a writing perspective it doesn't paid off and doesn't exactly feels as a theme throughout the season. Also, something i might be wrong is the fact that the season felt 100% azirafel and crowley centric, i love em a lot and their interactions and the performance of both David Tennant and Michael Sheen is perfect, a little bit of subplot could have helped, maybe other characters or more shax shananigans, But i really love he show and i understand they had a really troublesome development of the season and i'm looking forward to watch the third season or the new book (since gaiman said that, in case they don't get another season he will write a new book to end the story) hoping the next season won't be just as you predicted en we have a really great conclusion (but i love the idea that crowley and axiraphale love each other but they're not sexual beings so you can understand their love without needing this big displays of affection, apparently the ace and aro/ace community really loved this kind of representation)

@HuntingViolets

10 ай бұрын

_if they have just put some little scenes with belzebub kinda getting worried about gabriel or a little more invested into where he is_ . . . But they did do this?

Great to hear your thoughts on this show! Thanks for sharing them.

Brilliant! You verbalized pretty much exactly all of how I felt watching this season unfold and you took some of the threads deeper than I had been able to go in my own thinking around it. A very satisfying video essay! Thank you!!!

ayyyy! great as always!!

Great video! I don't agree with all of your gripes but I agree with some! I think the show is written in a fairly self-indulgent way and I think Gaiman wrote it not necessarily with "fan service" in mind but more like what he (and Pratchett?) always wanted to write into the story but couldn't because of the era it was originally written. I think he got a little too excited to have the free reign to do so and it turned out slightly fanfiction-y lol. I have to say I'm not familiar with Gaiman or Pratchett (I've only ever seen Coraline outside of GO) so I cannot comment on his writing much, but I do understand where people come from when they complain about Nina and Maggie. They very much could have been written better. I think my biggest takeaway from this show (after watching many reactions and reviews) is that people tend to "understand" and like it more when viewed in a religious trauma way. Religious trauma (as I'm sure you're aware) involves a LOT of gaslighting, manipulation, deceit, and cognitive dissonance. Both Crowley and Azi have experienced this and dealt with it. Crowley was a higher-order angel and therefore it is easy to assume he saw more of it quicker and was able to "escape" (to hell mind you) from heaven way earlier. Azi, on the other hand, had continued to deal with this for 6,000 more years, and while humans were existing as the playground to both sides no less. I can very easily see why not only the Metatron's offer worked on him, but that he was surprised that Crowley didn't agree. For him, he didn't even think that someone like the Metatron, someone who is so close to God and who is supposed to be the mouthpiece for Her, would lie or manipulate him. Crowley and Azi's miscommunication comes from a DEEP misunderstanding of what "good" is, what heaven's goal is, and how their individual values manifest themselves. I think the whole last 10-15 minutes of the last episode were fantastic and showed this dynamic very well. You don't see this discussed in media as clearly as you do in this show like ever so I'm really happy that GO did this justice. I like everything you said in you're individualism vs collectivism part! BUT! I don't think it's weird that Gabriel didn't say thank you before he left with Beez. As you said he has all his memories back and therefore is now a mashup of BOTH Jim and Gabriel. The Jim side of him might be thankful but he has been Gabriel a whole hell of a lot longer and I EASILY see how that would override any thankfulness that Jim might have. I think the religious trauma argument might still apply to Beez and Gabriel here as well.

@SpeedyCheetahCub

10 ай бұрын

About the not thanking Aziraphale thing: Beelzebub acknowledges that Aziraphale took care of Gabriel better than they could, Gabriel isn't really one for thanking people, and Gabriel does one circuit around the room before spending the rest of that scene focused solely on Beelzebub, so it probably never crossed his mind.

i’m not sure if i agree with a lot of this and especially your interpretation of the kiss scene but i loved hearing your opinion! i do agree that even though neil gaiman put a lot of heart into it, the show certainly has some problems. namely, one that i had a small issue with (and you also mentioned) was when maggie and nina TOLD crowley that he and aziraphale needed to talk. It seemed a bit cheap. And, as someone who was aware of the fandom pairing between gabriel and beelzebub before season 2 came out, i thought the whole thing between them came out of NOWHERE upon my first watch of the season and i was kinda like. wtf that’s it. really. It was only after i watched it a second time where i kinda saw a few hints towards that plotline but it all seemed pretty reaching?? idk. good omens is still one of my favorite shows and i love the story, the subplots, representation, themes, and a lot of the actors in it. but it does have some problems, and i love to analyze the story and hear what others have to say about it, I think it’s very important we get a season 3, because this is a 3 act story. it’s like judging a book halfway through. we have to see the end.

You continue to have the best takes

"consider me got" lmao same 💀

Love the video!

Excellent video! I had a lot of complicated feelings about this season that i was struggling to articulate, and you seem to have done it for me. Thanks!

Thank you for sharing your opinions. It's a different view than mine or the one of my bubble, so it's very interesting. I disagree with most of it, but it's very articulate and helped me understand your point of view, which I respect. The one thing I really appreciated was the commentary on the breakup as a social-philosophical disagreement. I came to the same conclusion after days of grieving on the ending. That grieving wasn't just a reaction to a romantic breakup, it left me shaken at an existential level, and I concluded that, being Crowley and Aziraphale two faces of the same character (as per the book's genesis), they reflected a conflict that I feel in myself too, between disassociating myself from a system I disagree with and sacrificing my quiet to do what is in my power to fix the system. In this respect, I think that the ending finally ties back with the book and its big philosophical themes (whereas yes, the second season seemed to lack any big stakes until then). I understand why you say that the side characters and subplots feel weak both in the book/S1 and S2, because how much we get invested in A&C, but the book holds a very humanistic message, and it's important that every character, on purpose or seemingly by chance, contributes to saving the world. Plus, A&C start to love each other because they both love humanity. We wouldn' have any A/C if there wasn't a world to cherish and then save. That's the primal engine of the book imo. and that's why the breakup at the end of S2 hurts me so much. For two beings that bet their lives on working together and save the Earth, being divided on whether doing it or not feels like disrupting the very roots of their relationship. and reminds me of something I learned the hard way some time ago, that sometimes life is more important than love. I have no doubt that Neil will give us a satisfactory resolution to their conflict. I need it to involve a true kiss this time :D but exploring this conflict, although devastating, I could even consider it as the most important aspect of S2. (although I am rewatching it endless times for A/C obviously, the Job minisode, the demonstrations of trust, aziraphale visibly ripening at every shot for giving their relationship a turn... but I'm getting sidetracked) also, although I'm sure other commenters pointed that out: Crowley didn't create the universe, he was just appointed with a nebula (or more, we don't know), where aziraphale was on the team that created Earth. also very fitting with C's "obsession" for fleeing to Alpha Centauri :D

I didn't agree with all your points as I did all around enjoy season 2 but I do agree that it felt hacked together at points. I would put it down to it being the "in between" season since the 1st re-told the story from the book and 3rd season is told to be based on the talked-about-but-not-made book sequel "668 the neighbour of the beast" that neil and terry had planned but sadly never got to execute. So what I'm thinking is this was the season which whole funtion was to build the story to where it would go in s3 (presumably the second coming as they teased at the end) I've been a fan of the book for a long time and it has had tremendous influence on my life so I might be blinded to a lot of the failings of season 2 but I am happy to hear differing thoughts and opinions :D

This video is perfect!!! I love this relationship so much, I wish the show was even half as deep as everything you laid out!! So much potential on the cutting room floor this story is gonna haunt me forever lmao 😭😭😭

N O O O BECAUSE I WAS WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO FINALLY TALK ABOUT IT

Thank you so much. I was having trouble articulating some of the things that were bugging me about it.

Thanks for your sleepless thoughts on Good Omens! I came out of season 2 much more positive than you, but I completely understand where you're coming from. I guess I feel like I won't truly know how I feel about season 2 until season 3 has come and gone? ..and that is probably a shortcoming I should care more about. *shrugs* Something about it all felt *very* intentional to me, it's just that it's gonna be another 3 years before I know if it was worth the gamble of not expounding or finalizing *now*.

Very good analysis!

Wonderful analyses. Personally I believe the root of all problems is that the show watered down and streamlined everything to appeal to the, with all due respect, broadest possible audience. Everything can be put into neat little boxes, there's no real surprises if you have some experience with media, especially mainstream media, everything is kind of predictable. It's toothless, but very marketable. The nuances and depth of the book are gone, to the point where I'd argue that with how the characters are on the show the entire plot couldn't take place anymore. Continuity and consistency is all over the place (e.g. the trial having no effect on how characters interact at all, or at least certainly not in the way it should have an effect. It's like setting any Star Wars story in the mainverse post Ep6 on Alderaan) and the focus seems on making scenes memeable, and manipulating the audience by ringing pavlovian bells. It's really sad to see, but the reason is still being cut by Hanlon's razor. What I did find concerning, however, was that in both seasons I got the feeling that there is a subtle push of alloheteronormativity, given how the visually cishet couples interact, often compared to the book counterparts, and now in s2 one could argue that Beelzebub not just got 'yassified' (there's a word I thought we'd stopped using) but stepford-wifed too. And what has been done to aziraphale has some foundation to be read as 'feminizing' him in the sense of making him the kind of not-very-bright manic-pixie-dream-girl (without the 'manic' bit of course) cheerleader type. Which is concerning. YMMV though Enough rambling now. So, again, thanks for the analysis :)

@Shonalika

10 ай бұрын

YES I had very similar thoughts about Beelzebub and Aziraphale that you mentioned!!! they weren't as relevant/were WAY too complex to go into in this particular video so I didn't go there lol but yes yes yes

@letolethe3344

10 ай бұрын

@@Shonalika I'm noticing you're only "liking" the comments that agree with you. There's a few rud-ish comments, but isn't it a compliment to your analysis that you've stimulated a smart discussion of varying viewpoints on the show?

@lilmaibe

10 ай бұрын

@@Shonalika Thank you for the reply :D Been talking about some of those elements with friends since s1, and maybe one day we'll get around finally making our own analysis vid, because... there's even more to unpack, and none of it really... positive, to put it like this? (e.g. the potential switch from having crowley and az technically be trans in the book to being very cis on the show, given mr gaiman's statement about how 'they're not human and thus can't be called XYZ', so we have to look at things from that angle) There's great ideas, but the execution is just... very weird. (also, ignore lelo down there, they are spamming literally EVERY GO related video that isn't praising the show to the high heavens, left alone DARES to say that any incarnation besides the show is worthwhile)

@susanmiller9317

10 ай бұрын

While Aziraphale's idealism and naiivete often come through in an irritating pixie-girl mode, there are hints of maturity coming. My favorite aspect of Aziraphale is in the scene where Aziraphale says he wants the apology. I saw an excellent analysys video that talked about Azi meaning boy/youth, and Raphale being the missing archangel Raphael. How would it be to see a well-rounded Crowley with additional human/angel friendships re-unite with a more mature archangel Raphael to be together in a healthier way and to help humanity survive? I wonder how much can happen in only one more season.

@lilmaibe

10 ай бұрын

@@susanmiller9317 I can't agree here. One thing that makes the book work so well and timelessly, imo, is that these two are both mature and immature in their own ways. All the characters in the book, humans, angels, demons, personifications of the greatest terrors of the human mind, they are all very much people. And Az and Crowley are, by all means Nobodies, which makes them work so well. On the show I'd argue that the whole 'making them out to be very important (at least Crowley) I'd say actually diminishes them. The fandom is so eager to the point of obsession to make these two out to be super important and meaningful, when, honestly, they work better if they are not. Also it'd deprive us of the (slim) possibility of getting catherine tate as raphael.

Very interesting analysis! I think this season also suffers a bit from being more of a transition between s1 ans 3

@WhiteXxX777

10 ай бұрын

yup! though, I like that it's a transition. secondary media like this is often slow, boring and feels info-dumpish. I like what they did but it feels like fanfiction? Which has it's down falls but over all is just fun!

@rafaela00002

10 ай бұрын

@@WhiteXxX777 same, it has some problems but it's nice to have a calmer season between two bigger ones

As someone who got burned the few times I actually dared to get invested in a ship, which always implies it and the characters felt relatable and thus the disappointment cut deep, I've become highly suspicious and very sensitive to any red flags and I am no longer willing to just gaslight myself into thinking the bare minimum is good enough. However, having said that, I liked the confession/kiss scene and it provided a good cliffhanger that is angsty and sad but also nothing insurmountable and, crucially, actually established their romance as canon, which I think 8 out of 10 times doesn't happen. I take it as a positive sign that Gaiman was in fact open to listening to his audience, not in the sense of doing fan service 100% but in the sense of "ok, this is how most readers and viewers perceive what is on paper/screen between these 2 characters and it makes sense, there is potential there so let's go for it" I do wish they'd kissed in a better moment and that it wouldn't be just a desperate lip smack, but I can understand that this dramatic type of thing is very alluring to a writer. In the end it'll all depend on thr 3rd season. I have some of the same concerns you expressed, like I fear they won't get some proper kissing scenes, some proper romantic expressions of physical affection(no, not necessarily a s3x scene, though I'd like it ofc, not in a titillating way and I'd like something that's about the love and tenderness between them, the discovery of intimacy in a way these characters were never allowed to experience), their complete sanitization or/and being apart all season or most of it and dragging this state of limbo between them til the last ep or two. I really hope Neil and co. know better than to do this and it is possible it will avoid those all too common tropes, but I do worry. They will almost certainly have a good ending and be together, I just hope it's not something we only get a few mins of at the end or that they just act like romantic buddies, most because they are a queer older couple that look like regular folk(I find both attractive but the point is they aren't young hunky types) and these kinds of couples and characters get ignored, poorly represented or desexualized as if it was gross to see them do more than hold hands and gaze at each other(even worse if it's older women but still applies to men too). A loud minority in the fandom is oddly puritanical so I actually hope and pray they don't influence Neil, chronically online as he is I liked Nina and Maggie, random as they were, I also like they are not the typical hot 20yrolds either. It could have been better but with only 6eps in a season, I'm actually ok with it and it was better than s1 for sure because there weren't as many important characters and plot lines to follow separately, hopefully that continues in s3.

What are you referring to about Gaiman's misogyny? I can't find anything on it online, and I haven't read more than a couple chapters of the book myself. My impression of him was that he was pretty progressive

@WhiteXxX777

10 ай бұрын

It's because he is pretty progressive; especially for a writer who's heyday was in the late 80s and throughout the 90s.

@FrolleinFroschbein

10 ай бұрын

I don't get it either. He writes believable women.

@Shonalika

10 ай бұрын

His stated views are progressive afaik. Take this with a pinch of salt as it's been a long time since I read any of his books (besides Good Omens which I re-read after writing this video so see if my opinion had changed). As far as I remember, Gaiman's female characters (esp grown adult ones) tend to fall into very predictable and limited roles at best, with frequent use of light misogyny as humour. This is definitely true in Good Omens: One of the first jokes is a dad standing around outside going on about how much he doesn't want to be with his wife while she's giving birth, there was a historical joke about a guy strangling his wife because she spoke too much, the punchlines of the girl kid jokes feel... weird (I remember something along the lines of "it's sexist to give someone a girl bike just because she's a girl"), very small detail but I still dislike the way she is "paired up" with the only female Horseman, and of course, there's the woman who is continuously nice to a cantankerous old racist who is nothing but unpleasant to her and they end up getting married - because that's what women are supposed to do, I suppose. I could go on, but what I'm getting at is that Gaiman's misogyny manifests as little, *subtle* aspects that together contribute to a constant, persistent feeling of "ick" while reading Good Omens and (from memory) a lot of his other work. His misogyny is overshadowed by the overall progressive appearance of his work and the often uncritical adoration of his fanbase. Of course he's an older writer and Good Omens was written in the 90s - that doesn't mean the problematic elements don't exist or shouldn't be mentioned. It is what it is.

@oftinuvielskin9020

10 ай бұрын

@@Shonalika (I found the comment :) Great observations. I remember being annoyed at the old man - old lady plot-line, but otherwise I don't remember noticing these things. Still, I think the sum of those things is the reason the book fell kind of flat to me. It's accidentally very queer in a really appealing way, but that queerness is surrounded by a very straight feeling world and logic

@greenghoul157

10 ай бұрын

If anyone has seen the abandoned script for the Good Omens movie that never got made there is yikes homophobia played off as a joke about Aziraphale and Crowley not understanding humans but Neil has also gone on to say that a lot has changed since he wrote Good Omens with Terry Pratchett over 30 years ago and trying to inject sensibilities and politics 30 years later into writing that's aged considerably even according to the writer himself is a bit childish and stupid, the book is a 90s period piece that's about as queer as it was possible to get back then coming from a gay millenial

Lovely video, I much agree about the side characters, it really is the major flaw of Good Omens as a whole. Anyway, I have a lot of hope that the third season will solve a LOT of the issues that have come up with the second season. I mean I kind of have to considering it’s my favourite show lol. Anyway, have a great day everyone!

omg i thought the kiss was filmed weird too!!!

i havent even watched the video but when i saw GO2 in the title and then saw who had dropped the video I SCREAMED!! and now im getting evicted but yayyyy thanks for the upload!!

You managed to articulate a lot of my feelings toward the show as I've been processing them. I came away from Season 2 feeling like I'd just watched someone's big-budget fanfiction (which is fine enough on its face, and it did have aspects I enjoyed, but... if you know, you know), and at the same time it felt weirdly hollow. Then I fell down a rabbit hole of die-hard fans of the book comparing it to the show, particularly when it came to how Crowley and Aziraphale are characterized. If memory serves, in the book there's a lot more emphasis on how the forces of Heaven and Hell are essentially just dudes doing their assigned jobs, and there were just as many surprisingly compassionate demons as there were cruel angels. There was also a lot more emphasis on how Crowley and Aziraphale subverted the more... essentialist (for lack of a better term) tropes of Cheerful Sunshine Angel(TM) and Dour Snarky Demon(TM) that they've come to kind of embody in the show. Somebody pointed out that Show!Crowley seems to have a lot of contempt for anybody who isn't Aziraphale, calling the other demons stupid and useless and--for all the previous season's implication that Crowley had some protective instinct toward kids--even treating Job's children like nuisances he wanted to be rid of. Reading those analyses and then coming to watch your video really made it all click for me. The show I watched felt less concerned with the plight of ordinary, complex people caught in needlessly complicated and abusive systems and more about if the two walking fanfic tropes would succeed in finding their own little corner of the world to seal themselves off into. And I feel like a lot of that comes from the absence of Terry Pratchett from the show. Neil Gaiman tends to write characters who, if they aren't literal gods, embody these grand, larger-than-life archetypes and exist beyond what our tiny human brains can comprehend. And you see some of that reflected in the show (it's not enough for Crowley to just be the serpent in Eden, no no no--he has to be a former angel who was important enough to create the literal universe and unearth top-secret information in Heaven!). But Terry Pratchett was really good at writing *people.* Everyday, petty, complicated people with their own inner lives and experiences that shaped their worldviews. Hell, even his version of Death itself in the "Discworld" series spent a good amount of time as a mortal farmhand and was so moved by the experience that he argued to the universe itself that the point of existence was caring for each other. It's a sorely needed perspective when you're writing about how Heaven and Hell's actions impact the mortal world and how to mitigate that damage. That's why it was such a shame that the secondary characters in the first season didn't get fleshed out more and the ones in the second season were just... kind of there. Maggie and Nina especially (and even Gabriel and Beelzebub to an extent) felt like they just existed to prop up the Two Special Boys, like NPCs in a video game. It goes back to what you were saying about community and collectivism and how much those don't really seem to matter in the show. Normal people seem to only be important in how they factor into Crowley and Aziraphale's lives, and I feel like it's especially telling that the detached and cynical Crowley is nearly always framed as smarter and more proactive while the more sociable Aziraphale is framed as misguided and more reactive. Yeah, they spent last season saving the world, but they don't seem to actually care about it that much. It's just a stage for their drama.

watching this was me constantly throwing my hands up and thinking THAANK YOOOU!!! because you articulated absolutely everything i’ve thought about these 2 seasons, including the weakness of gaiman and the book. fantastic video, 10/10 . nothing better than hearing someone with the exact same galaxy brain opinions and analysis

Heads up, LONG COMMENT INCOMING! We all have our opinions, and that is to say that there ARE some really good points here... but also stuff I can't agree on it. I will say this tho, as someone who is currently working their way through the book, it's a relief to hear someone else say that it's not great! From all the stuff I've heard it, I expected it to be amazing... but I've mostly been bored reading it in fact, and just passed the bit where it's 100+ pages of next to no Aziraphale and Crowley, focusing on side characters that I don't care for sll that much. In the show, they were okay, I liked 'em, etc, but it's Aziraphale and Crowley at the centrepiece. There's also bits in the book that just seem to waffle on about non-important and non-interesting stuff? Why do I need to read about this nobody of a character that has little to no importance to the plot? Anyway, s2! I loved it. Sure, it does feel a bit fanficy at times (and this is coming from someone who writes and reads fanfic), but it was nice. It was funny, it was cute, I liked the more Aziraphale and Crowley-ness to it. I do agree on the bit when Nina and Maggie sat down to tell Crowley in a very and literal "this is what is happening, look audience, I am spelling out this thing", like it just felt... weird, disjointed, forced. The kiss too was great. I've seen a few people who didn't like it, but the point is being missed here, which has already been stated in the comments here, that it was not meant to be a good kiss. Aziraphale and Crowley do not know what they're doing, and are fumbling greatly on how to act and process this earthly thing that is "romance" and "kissing". They're bases on such is plucked from books and movies, which are all fiction, and often can't be applied to real life. They thought it did, and that's why it fell apart. They're bad at communicating with each other too, which is why having a single sit down with two lesbians isn't going to give a 6000+ year relationship. Oh, and the kiss was one take, confirmed by Neil. I never saw the arm flailing thing an issue. Again, it's awkward, it's meant to be awkward, Aziraphale allowed himself to give in for a moment, but is still overall experiencing shock. The ending makes perfect sense for that reason, but also for the reason as to why Aziraphale left. As distraught as the ending was which had me sobbing at 5am, Aziraphale has been offered the opportunity to fix and protect not only earth, but himself and Crowley, so that there's no looming danger. I'm glad he left. I would not like Aziraphale to have remained and let someone else take over to push the Second Coming forward which would lead to earth being destroyed. It's just not in his nature to turn away. The music is also a different version of the theme at the beginning of s2 when Crowley was making the universe, i.e I believe this signifies that basically Crowley loves Aziraphale like he loved his stars. Also, Crowley was not a lowly angel, it has pointed out in ep6 that he used to be powerful, and why he was able to open the file on Gabriel (many believe he was Raphael, but I think that's Aziraphale, cos like... come on, the name, and the lore behind that angel, leaving Crowley to probably as Lucifer, but we'll see). Jumpscare on the Gotham recommendation video tho! XD I love Gotham (Oswald and Edward were the best part of it, but I did enjoy a majority of the cast), but that video is really good (although I did hear the person was against asexuals, but I dunno if that's still true, as it has been a few years). The stuff about the "bury your guys" is... I can't get on board with that. This show does a good job a queer rep. Just because it's currently not a happy ending doesn't mean there won't eventually be one. While you don't strike me as one of the people I'm about to describe AT ALL, it does feel a bit "I'm angry at Neil and going to send him Tumblr hate mail because why aren't the gays happy?" Yes, it sucks, currently, but it will get there. IT WILL BE OKAY, AND THEY WILL HAVE THEIR COTTAGE IN THE SOUTH DOWNS!

Yes, I thought Maggie and Nina should take their own advice and not interfere.

Oh, yeah. I'd love to see Crowley expand his horizons, find friends who love the same music, being a single parent/mentor for Muriel (who might have had her memory wioed, too?). I can imagine a 3-year jump in his abilities to communicate and commune and bring this to his next encounter with Aziraphale. Maybe then it would be Aziraphale following and watching Crowley for a bit.

Thank your for dropping the truth about the Gaiman problem in Good Omens. It's weird with other consumers of the goth brand that you're basically not allowed to dislike Gaiman. And I don't care what a lovely fellow he is or how close he was to Pratchett, I've never gotten along with any of his material outside of the Sandman comics. I largely think that was mitigated by his unpunctuated ramblings being confined to dialogue bubbles, which took a backseat to the gorgeous artwork. My biggest problem has not been Gaiman himself; it's been everyone who likes him insisting that I'll change my mind if I read this or that. I've suffered through three of his novels waiting for the magical book that's supposed to turn me into a raving fanboy. The only thing reading more of his material has done was to turn a mild distaste into an absolute loathing.

@Shonalika

10 ай бұрын

I have noticed this, and then on the flip side of that you have the people who are *above* this and behave as if liking Gaiman is a personal failing of character lmfao my sister *really* likes him, or did as a teenager anyway. we've had a lot of conversations about why we react so differently. currently we're thinking there's some sort of specific whimsy factor in fiction that either clicks in your brain and "works," or just absolutely doesn't and reads as annoying bewildering nothing, you land on one side of the coin or the other, and there's nothing you can do it. like coriander. (that and you have to be quite tolerant of Gaiman's relentless misogyny-as-humour. I actually just reread Good Omens to see if my opinion changed since I was a teenager and phew no I think I was too gentle on it ^^;)

@oftinuvielskin9020

10 ай бұрын

Wow, I've never heard this complaint before! I thought the iffy parts of Good Omens came from Pratchett when reading it (Back then I'd never read one of his novels before). I guess I could be kind of blinded - it's been a while since I read him much now, but I feel Gaiman also has a lot of great strong female characters, like Coraline or Lettie in The Ocean at the end of the lane. Though, I think I can kind of see it with American Gods maybe. Are there any more specific examples beyond Good Omens that comes to mind?

@author_page

10 ай бұрын

@oftinuvielskin9020 There's a problem with the framing of this question, when given two specific examples, Good Omens and American Gods - the former being one you provided unprompted - you ask for other specific examples. Both of those examples are egregious enough to make someone not to want to read any more of his books. I like Shonalika's comparison to coriander. His writing either works for you or it doesn't. I'm not trying to change anyone else's mind, or come up with reasons why any person shouldn't enjoy whatever media they like. I'm not here to decry any other person for their choices. It's just exhausting having to have this same argument every. single. time. I share an opinion on Gaiman.

@oftinuvielskin9020

10 ай бұрын

@@author_page Sorry, I didn't mean to make you feel bad or interrogated. If you don't like his writing, you don't have to. I was just genuinely curious. I wouldn't be surprised to see that I'd overlooked some misogyny in his writing, as somebody who always identified more with male characters and was a bit of an nlog. I guess it's a relief that those are your examples as well, since I don't really find those two to be Gaiman's best. The most compelling parts of those are Aziraphale and Crowley and the Coming to America segments, imo.

@Shonalika

10 ай бұрын

@@oftinuvielskin9020 been many years since I've read any Neil Gaiman (besides Good Omens, which I re-read after making this video just to see if my opinion had changed) so I'm going off of very old feelings of being icked out BUT while I vastly prefer Pratchett on the whole, you're right that he absolutely has issues in this area too. So it's entirely possible I have a stronger impression of Gaiman's misogyny because I don't otherwise much like his books. re Good Omens, another commenter asked a similar question and I've given a more in-depth answer, which I would link, but there doesn't seem to be a way to directly link to comments

I think the Gab-Belz decision of just cutting ties and running will be an important catalyst moment for Crowley later, making him reevaluate how just grabbing Aziraphale and running to the stars is selfish, and will doom more couples like them in the long run. They made the decision he dreamed of making, and it makes everything harder, for everyone but them (cuz, I assume, there will be consequences from Hell and Heaven following this, including further restrictions in interactions between the sides). There's a couple of criticism you make that I think fall under this category: important plot points being set up for later. They're not presented in a way that I find satisfying (as you say, they're two dimensional af), but I can sort of see why they're there, I guess.

There is speculation that Metatron is writing fanfiction badly in the book of life to influence events, given various omissions and framings of objects..

@HuntingViolets

10 ай бұрын

"The Magic Trick You Didn't See" by Ariaste on Tumblr, aka author Alexandra Rowland, who expounds it in a long Google doc. A lot of other theories floating around too, from lying to protect Crowley, being drugged by coffee, and "just" having religious trauma, etc.

@TheTroutyness

10 ай бұрын

@@HuntingViolets I buy Ariadne’s theory and it matches Pratchett’s literary style. Drugged coffee seems… unlikely, to say the least.

@HuntingViolets

10 ай бұрын

@@TheTroutyness I enjoyed reading it and all the theories; I have been a bit scathing on coffee theory (although I feel a bit guilty about that now, because someone came up with it out of love, like all the theories) and think it's very unlikely also. But the Metatron rewriting the Book of Life (which would need to mean something other than the book of names, but, okay, the show could change that) would work better in a movie or the type of show that has 22 episodes and seasons that are aired closely together. It was fun to read, and I'd like to try some of the author's other work, but I don't subscribe to it. There is a version of the lie theory I quite like, which, even if not correct, delves so beautifully in the guilt Aziraphale may carry for Crowley's fall, and also what people have had to say about Crowley and Aziraphale as abuse survivors may play a big part in things, but Crowley and Aziraphale weren't acting that out of character or different from season one, Crowley wanting them to be together no matter what and Aziraphale wanting them to be together but putting doing what he perceived as good (saving the world) first. It will be interesting to see what happens, though, when they come back and whether it matches any of the very creative takes from this creative fandom.

....yea alright, i'll continue reading fanfic instead.

24:06 Wdym? There are so many happy gay moments in this show. I'm asexual and neurodivergent and I love this show.

Thank you. That was a really interesting analysis even if I didn't agree with all of it. Made me think though. Intelligent

Please do carry on creating your perceptive thoughts!!

The main take away i am getting here is this is yet another David Tenant show where they don't use Derek Jacobi to his full potential

With Maggie and Nina, that's entirely used to draw a character narrative about Aziraphale and Crowley. Aziraphale doesn't understand, from a very niave perspective, that Maggie and Nina are human and love isn't simple necessarily. I don't find them clunky characters at all, nor that communication. Because Maggie has known Aziraphale for a very long time, and Nina will have too. They'll have seen Crowley in and out, and in the coffee shop. With how humans actually interact in the day to day, it's entirely accurate. The kiss is entirely done on purpose, exactly as it is, because people with cult trauma, who end up with someone who's supposed to be *against them* in some way fundamentally. They struggle with communication throughout the entirety of their relationship. It's _meant_ to feel doomed because when you're in that situation, of a constant life or death argument... It's accurate and human. It's just told from an experience and perspective you don't have. With Gaiman in charge? It won't finish with one single kiss. However, even if it does end on them sharing a house and a glass if wine... That's because that's the characters. That's who they _are_, as people. The kiss, is fundamentally human. That's what Neil Gaiman does. He portrays, (much like Sir Terry did) against fantastical backdrops, what it really means to be really, truly, and fundamentally human. Oh by the way, Crowley didn't create the universe and they cover that in the show. He just did the stars As for the why? I think Neil is doing what he always does, and is showing the value of collectivism for the individual in a time when average people are focused so individualistically.

New shonalika?!?

@harrow426

10 ай бұрын

This was great, hope to see more of these spur of the moment videos

@Shonalika

10 ай бұрын

thank you so much!!

a fun video :D

as for who is it for, the show might be a step on the gay pipeline also, i wouldn't mind more shorter/easier pieces, in any sort of media

Oh. I LOVED sandman, and I like the dreaming sequel too. As well as Neverwhere. I haven't read good omens. Nor watched it. No time for that. I'm clearly reconsidering my relationship to Gaiman's work (still super important, but... let's say that I do prefer him as a quiet ally now. I should read back). Thanks for that vid!

What a great breakdown, totally agree with all your points. It hits well with my own confusion at what exactly I found disappointed, puts it in the words I needed myself. And gosh, the normie imitation was TOO real. We/They deserve better and I hope they do. This felt more like a rehashed best-of, despite the ending being enticing in the philosophy point. We will see.

YEAH!!! Yeah. You get it. I actually drafted my own video essay about the season (there's an hour long draft of it taking up space on my hard drive right now) but ultimately I couldn't stomach finishing it because the whole thing was so grim. I focused a lot on the actual structure of the season and the astronomical amount of dropped plotlines. It's just poorly structured and sloppily written. And then to be celebrated for an angry kiss in the last 5 minutes????? I used to love good omens. It got me through a really tough part of my life. But season 2... it's just not good. And that's so frustrating to accept.

Thats fair i didnt really think about it to hard

i deefinitely agree about the scene where nina and maggie sat crowley down and had a talk about his feelings. it felt very out of place because neither of them hadn’t ever formed a close friendship with crowley at all. if anything, they would’ve privately discussed with aziraphale rather than crowley. as much as i enjoy season 2, the fact that the show goes down this route bothers me. youre right! show dont tell!

Crowley should find his place in a community and understand he's more than just Aziraphale's lovesick sidekick. Basically: love of my life rejected me and life didn't stop, now what? He could grow a garden. Befriend Muriel. Make art. Find purpose. And Aziraphale should learn to stop denying himself things he wants, "for the greater good". Yes, he's a hedonist, but a constantly afraid one. So he could be trying to change the system only to realise it isn't broken, it's working exactly as intended. Crowley was right! Great! Now Aziraphale can get back and expect Crowley waiting for him, as he always does, right? Except Crowley's his own person now. That's my perfect 3×01. The rest of the season could be them learning how to love each other again, but this time with these new perspectives. Instead, we will probably get 5 hours of boring cardboard npcs living their boring cardboard npc lives plus a great romantic reunion in the last episode. But a girl can dream 😅

watched this even though I've never seen the show XD

While i dont agree with a lot of the criticism, especcially of the final scene(though you do seem to reconsider it in the process) you have an excellent analysis of the themes and intended storylines that i also pick up, which is nice to hear from someone else besides my own brain :D I do think they cannot meaningfully understand each other or be together, before they both communicate more and see the flaws in the ways they are attached/detached to their respective systems. Ive seen commentary about how much this resonates with people with catholic guilt and religious trauma: how crowley completely separates himself from the system and everything connected to it, while aziraphale still tries to be amicable and in the end decides to try and change things. I feel it's supposed to mirror both experiences of trying to detach yourself from a religious community(either because of being queer or other reasons) and of trying to detach yourself from family/relatives, that dont accept queerness or neurodivergence or something else along those lines. And of course overall its a blatant commentary on institutions that can change our lives anytime and try to control us... or at least heaven is that, im not completely sure what hell is supposed to mirror... i dont think its supposed to be like an eeeviiil anarchist anti-capitalist group or something as a polar opposite to heaven, as they seem very different from that, and also seem to repeat some of the behaviours or structure of heaven(which makes sense so i do like it), im probably not educated enough to understand that part completely hah. But i relate a lot to crowley for breaking out/being cast out, and refusing to assimilate in any way or play nice. And i also relate a lot to aziraphale for being scared and trying to do things "the right way" in some capacity, and trying to fix it from the inside, sacrificing his own wants(to be with crowley on earth) in the process, as soon as a legitimate oppurtunity for enacting change and relieving his guilt poses itself... Overall a very queer, transgressive and at least for me personally currently relevant story in themes. I dont think season 3 will give me a satisfying answer to how to resolve those conflicts in myself in real life, but i am certain it will be a happy ending for them at least. Very good video, i hope you did end up still mostly enjoying the series even with the drawbacks, and that youll tune in for s3/the continuation whenever it happens! I personally dont think they will be buried at all like we're used to from other dissapointing media, but i can only hope for now.

My main complaints about the season: 1. They canonized the gay with a sexual assault. 2. The entire season was a nothingburger of a plot. 3. Beelzebub looked kind of gross throughout the season, but then for the final episode they prettied her up to make the romance reveal work. They should've had Gabriel kiss her on the open sores or something. I've always been told that Neil Gaiman is a great writer and I just kind of assumed that to be true. I never read the books, but between two seasons of Good Omens and one season of the Sandman I'm not sure I really vibe with it. Like it's good in places, but so much of it is boring, void of personality or outright cringe. Also like, is all of it bible fanfiction or just these two? Edit: Also great video! It felt like that kind of went without saying so I didn't say it initially.

@ThePrincessCH

10 ай бұрын

Neil Gaiman doesn't have much experience as a showrunner, though. The first season basically copied the book, Gaiman didn't have as much of a reference point for the second season.

@kore5080

10 ай бұрын

This is not biblical fanfiction. Good Omens is a pretty pointed attack on apocalyptic millenarianism. Neither can I see Terry Pratchett as supportive of biblical fanfiction; Small Gods, for example.

You say it needs to be about collectivization, but instead it's about individualism. But why does it "need" to be about that? It sounds like your biggest criticism of the season is that it doesn't tell the story you think it should tell, which anyone could say of any work of art or media, surely? "I think this ballet/video/movie/painting/song should have been about ____." I get it if you just don't like the story it does tell, but in that case, why bother going into specifics like how they filmed the kiss or characterization, when that wouldn't really make you like it, right? The writers wanted to tell a romance story about six specific people (I too would've liked expansion on the two sub-plot pairings), not an adventure or other type of story about a demon-angel network.

Belzebub and Gabriel being the only ship to get together properly actually annoyed me. Cause I know Belzebub is nonbinary, but 1) as you explained, all of the demons & angels are basically nonbinary 2) they present as a straight couple with very male/female behaviour patterns during courting. And that's the only couple that gets their happy ending out of three? Nah... NAH

Just going to start by saying I enjoyed the book and the first season. Now, I liked some parts of the second season, but I thought it seemed very "made for the fans". Like Gabriel and Beauzabub getting together seems to be the second most popular ship even before season 2 came out, and a lot of scenes seemed to address concepts from pirated comments I've seen from Tumblr/Twitter (pirated because I saw them on pinterest while looking for fanart). And I just wasn't a fan like that, so the show felt like I was not the target demographic. Very fanfiction-y. And, they could have streamlined the plot a bit. I'm curious to see where it goes in later seasons though.

@HuntingViolets

10 ай бұрын

Gaiman said he noticed the chemistry between Gabriel and Beelzebub when they were filming their one scene last season. I think that "Ineffable Bureaucracy" started in fandom after that aired, so similar but separate reactions.

@sworddragonsliege

10 ай бұрын

@@HuntingViolets What "one last scene"?

@CJBailey372

10 ай бұрын

@@sworddragonsliege not "one last scene" but rather "their one scene" as in the only one they were in together in season one.

@HuntingViolets

10 ай бұрын

@@CJBailey372 Yes, thank you. It's interesting to me that the chemistry was maintained through the actress change.

@HuntingViolets

10 ай бұрын

@@sworddragonsliege The scene where they come to bully Adam into starting Armageddon and end up sounding like his aggravated parents.

17:00 I think.... they are experiencing for the first time this kind of community theme between them. Gabriel didn't seem to have much of a connection with other angels, Beelzebub also so I think they began to form those relationships first between them (remember these are beings that are powerful and have no concept of humanity as we do, even as to say and you did, they look at humans condescendingly. I personally think Crowley is like that for a very good reason, he fell from Heaven who rejected him for asking too many questions, he has seen humans do terrible things as a demon, and demons in his eyes are just kind of stupid, he is too smart for his own good I'll dare to say) so they are coming out to the world pretty much with fear and with a set of rules we can't understand fully. Beel for Gabriel is the first connection with a deeper meaning, remember that even Azira didn't like him very much, so for Grabriel, Azira was more about doing the right thing than helping a friend like he has done for Crowley. What I mean to say is that they are going towards that path, in the future maybe they will be able to open up to each other and maybe we will see Beel and Crowley reframing their relationship, even Crowley and Gabriel ( they kind of already have when he spends time with the former archangel at the bookshop, for now at least he doesn't hate him as before) now, even with Azira being in charge he is also going to reframe many things that may open the possibility for all of them to just talk things out. at the end their relationship(Azira and Crowley and also Beel and Gabriel) kind of represents at large, that conflict between heaven and hell, they come from the same stock, they could live a more easy way of life if they just left behind do many prejudices between them.

I def interpreted that “I forgive you” as homophobic. Thanks for not being the only one!

love your normie voice, and thanks for expressing yourself so clearly! the video gave me a lot of "hold on I DID think that sucked!" for the book as well as the show haha

And now, apparently, Neil Gaiman declared that the kiss was not meant to be understood romantically? This kiss, with that music, etc? What? (Post should be on his tumblr, but, bear with me, I avoid going there Dx )

@alltimedwn

9 ай бұрын

he said it wasn't sexual, not that it wasn't romantic....

also would have enjoyed the ball scene a lot more if it was more focused on azi and crowley coming to realization of their feelings for each other! ive always felt like the writers had a lot of missed potential in that scene

I appreciate your perspective on this, however i must say not everything is bury-your-gays: this season was always a set-up for the next one

The weird thing about the kiss for me is context. When beings are at cross purposes and verbal communication breaks down, in that frustrating moment, NO one first-time attempts to imitate a mating ritual of 𝐚𝐧𝐨𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐫 𝐬𝐩𝐞𝐜𝐢𝐞𝐬.

#BeelzebubDeservedBetter

Okay i was irritated at first, but you got me with this polyamory cut xD Very nice review, thank you

I guess I wasn't aware that most gay couples only kiss at sad times on-screen. One question I would have is how you'd go about fixing this? Should writers of romance scripts with queer couples actively avoid kissing at sad moments, even if it makes sense for the story and characters? It seems like that would cause writers to have to formulate their stories based on what past writers have done.

Very good analysis that put words to some of the feelings I was having. How they filmed and directed the kiss was weird. It was almost impressively bad considering the actors have such good chemistry.

Finally, i love the show but i agree with you the fans support everything but its true the kiss was kinda awkward and forced

I think the problem with the confession/kiss scene is that the tone of the scene fluctuates so fast. One scene Aziraphale tries to convince Crowley to come with him, the next scene he accepts his decision. In the next scene he is about to quit his decision (when Metatron comes back), the other scene he is very sure of himself again. Overall, he is presented as being bitter about his choice, but during the credits he has this proud, ambitious look on his face. And the same goes for Crowley. He continues to confess his feelings even after Aziraphale told that he will accept Heaven's offer - which is very out of character, I think. He decides to leave in a defeated attitude, but then comes back to kiss him (even though Aziraphale did not show any hesitation at the moment, so what exactly led Crowley to believe a final temptation would change his mind?) then leaves again with the same defeated attitude. Overall, I don't think the scene naturally progresses towards the kiss, but it just keeps going back and forth.

@fairywingsonroses

10 ай бұрын

I think the emotional range we see in Aziraphale during the kiss scene are normal for someone whose life is going through a lot of major changes all at once. It's obvious that he's not entirely put off by the kiss, but he does need more time to process everything that's happening. I think it's normal to feel a range of emotions in moments of big change, particularly moments that leave you with more questions than answers about your life.

I have to agree. I think there’s more to it and yes the scene felt uncomfortable and I think it was meant to be it. Crowley is grasping at straws to get Azi to stay. Whenever they disagree he uses his vices to convince him other wise. Takes him to restaurants and reminds him of what he’ll lose if heaven wins the war. He uses as a tool to sway him and he did the same with the kiss. He makes no relationships with humans cause he probably does not want to get to attached to something that won’t last forever. I believe he makes a mention to Azi to never get attached. This also prevents him to communicate properly. He believes love to be like in the movies. Kiss him and happy ending for both. Gabriel and Beelzebub have no attachment to the world and don’t care what happens to it so they can just run away, whereas Crowley and Aziraphale love the world and Crowley willing to give up on it is hurtful to Azi. He can’t bare to just run away and leave it to be destroyed and I understand why he thinks he can change it. Their miscommunication is a huge problem. In season 1 when things don’t go Crowley’s way he does not react well to it. He just gets angry and insults Aziraphale instead of talking things through properly which prompts Aziraphale to forgive him. That kiss was not at all romantic. Even if Crowley meant it to be it was just desperate. It was a Come with me, Don’t leave me, Look what we can have together, and perhaps his one shot at getting a kiss. But it was still wrong. Aziraphale said many wrong things as well and his wording made Crowley believe he had to change before he could be good enough to be loved by him. And Aziraphale was willing to leave everything to grant Crowley the happiness he had when he was an angel and change the heaven to be good enough for him and how he thinks it should be. That kiss hurt him because he wanted it, but not like that. He saw it as another temptation. Probably not how he pictured their first kiss and yet he almost said I love you and when Crowley left he can be see mouthing No… like this isn’t how it’s supposed to go. Also the show is for Terry Pratchett. It’s Neil Gaiman honoring his wishes because he wanted to see their book be on a screen. It’s all for him.

It's for straight girls I feel who like gay couples and the drama. 24:52

THE POLYAMORY reappearing for the second time 🫸🫷

Though i didn't liked your intro, it's "yeah, whatever". The deep dive is kinda on-point and really interesting. The partner i was watching the episode with was kinda : "Why the hell are everybody that stupid in this show ?" and yeah, it kinda resonates with you point on side characters which falls flat. I was really hyped by the romances though, yeah, the lesbian are just random npcs matched together for plot-ish reason and to break the stupid "Demons can't enter without permission". Wasn't it a vampire thing ? Duh. And Belzebub (which i'm really fond of) and Gaby, completely a waste, i'm 100% ok with this. But i was kinda : "awww" during the reveal for a reason i can't completely figure right now. Maybe the only "romance with a good ending". Meh. And yeah, sure all the background seemed like background blablabla to put an highlight of the two clumsy gay on the spotlight. Even the complicated plot of the first season/book was kind of stupid-ish and too much to fill a story ark but kinda fun and rooted in this strange world. In this season, it looked just like a superfical canvas to explicit (sometime vaguely) interesting political things. (wtf to the undead n*zis and their commander in chief eaten by a giant spider in hell, which is fun but ... bland) So, yeah, hope this will be sorted out in season 3. So many things still to show and tell... With an Aziraphale's hope for the best, i guess. Thanks.

I loved the first season and I was really disappointed by the second. I got attached to a few characters that disappeared, plus I thought the ending of the first season was a beautiful conclusion for Aziraphale and Crowley, as in : they can be a couple openly and stop pretending to do their jobs. Plus to me it was obvious that Aziraphale had realized how heaven is actually as evil as hell. I think Az and Crowley were so obviouly acting as a couple, the only legitimate progress would have been pda, maybe presented as "we loved each other as superior beings, now let's try as humans". So yeah, season 2 was a major disappointment. Last episode especially, I had to take breaks because I cringed too hard (the clinky lesbian intervention, madly in love Gabriel and Bub, that Megatron guy suddenly here and dictating stuff... plus the awful kiss). Sorry, I needed to vent too, I just finished watching it 😭 I agree with you on most points, but I think I found even less redeeming qualities than you did in this season.

13:34 god handed most of his important things off on angels honestly 😒

I understand we are ready for a better queer relationship development, but I'm also aware that a loooot of people are in transition of acceptance. They're not quite there yet, and sometimes forcing thigs isn't the best. Don't be mad. You have really good points, I still love it as it is anyway. 🤭

I was really disappointed by this season. To me it feels like they put a bunch of filler scenes into the show to have that specific ending they wanted. I don’t think enough though was put into this season besides it being clunky setup for the brilliant ideas they have for season three. I’m not particularly mad, I’m just really disappointed. This whole season could’ve been compressed to like three episodes and they couldn’t have put most of season three into this season! Now that you’ve mentioned your expectation for season three (just as slow and empty as this one) I’m really scared of what they’ll release! Cause up until now I was sure they mainly have the third seasons plot down (and that it would be good) but they just had to bridge the gap with this season!

It would be so hard to explain to someone who hasn't watched the show that it is both queer and not queer. Neil has stated that they're not gay because they aren't human males. Supernatural beings don't have gender as we understand it. There was actually an in-script scene that didn't make it into the show/I don't even think it was filmed...of Crowley and Aziraphale in the 60s as female presenting. They're queer, however, in that they don't experience gender/romance/sexuality as an allosexual/cis/straight human would...but they're not human. You could call them genderfluid or Aro/Ace or Cupio or Demi or whatever...but none of that is truly accurate because they're just not human. I think it is so necessary to see their development as supernatural beings on Earth...They've come to love the physical world and earthly pleasures of food, drink, books and music and plants...all very physical objects. Therefore a very physical display of their affection/love was/is...while painful and intentionally inept and tone deaf...necessary. They're neither fully of Heaven or Hell or Earth at this point. But more than any of the other Demons or Angels...they're so close to humanity that they're so close to human. GO is queer in so many ways, but its not about two dudes...they're an Angel and a Demon. They are in love, but they just don't understand what they means because it looks and feels so different in them than it does with anyone else they've ever seen. Gabriel and Beelzebub are so ethereal that they're content to just float away together. Crowley and Aziraphale love the world and therefore their love has to live there. In a physical plane. There really was never going to be a happy ending here because they have absolutely no idea what they're feeling or what to do with it. They have to learn how to navigate these feelings that they just didn't understand they were having because they never expected to - never thought they could be capable of. It had to be bumpy so that they can step away and process it and come to terms with it. It could never have been simple or easy. They have never been simple and nothing has ever been easy for them.

I love your analysis of the differing perspectives and approaches of Crowley and Aziraphale, and the heartbreaking limitations that Crowley's dependence & singular focus (as his only relationship of any kind) on Az puts on him. I also appreciate your empathy in seeing Az's point of view instead of attacking him as "wrong", a simplistic reaction many fans had.

I just want crowley and az in season three being at odds, at war, and then at peace. side characters and plots are not only needless., but damn annoying there are two great actors at their peak. let them be! and a thought on the editing and direction. I found the show on the whole lacked good editing and direction. the ending wasn't going to suddenly get great editing... and a thought on your questioning the ending and future of the show, its drama and fiction. you either like the story or you dont. we could go back to historically bad endings in books, lets start with crime and punishment all the way to Stephen kings "It"