On the "parasitic lifestyle" we also have to consider that at the time an unmarried woman was expected to live with and be supported by her parents. There was nothing at all unusual about Lizzy and her sister being entirely financially dependent on their father.

@majorkade

4 жыл бұрын

In some cases, the kids are there to look after the parents. Perhaps ironic in this case.

@AndriaBieberDesigns

4 жыл бұрын

Women were not allowed to just go support themselves and live on their own if they were spinsters they had to live at home with their family.

@nancyayers6355

4 жыл бұрын

True, but in Lizzie's case, she was considered a spinster, since she was close to thirty years old, and her father's known cheapness must have grated on her, knowing that for that era, he was actually a wealthy man. She must have felt angry and rejected. No one fell in love with her, and women were seen as rejects if they hit 21 or 22 and we're still single. Her era was light years away from any idea of high tech. No computers, no TV ... What did she do all day? Wake up, dress for the day - then what? It appears her life was deadly dull! A hot summer, little to nothing to provide possible distractions, simmering hatred for her step- mother, resentment toward her father for bringing this stranger into their small home, maybe all these tensions suddenly erupted into rage. Maybe she couldn't tolerate her life any longer, and simply snapped!

@majorkade

4 жыл бұрын

@@nancyayers6355 I believe the recent Dateline special on the murders said that Lizzie was used to wielding an axe (or hatchet) when butchering hogs in the backyard. We think of them as city people, but in fact most in cities and towns of the 19th century had livestock of some kind. The investigator on the show suggested that Lizzie's skill in butchering would have made it more plausible that she could carry out the gruesome attacks. She knew how to kill, and was used to a gory scene. lol omg

@user-gq6lk6re2h

4 жыл бұрын

Well By God!

A couple things you left out of the time line. Lizzie was originally with Emma in Fairhaven, but returned home due to obligations with the church. Dr. Bowen sent Mrs Borden home due to "summer illness" or food poisoning. Lizzie dismissed Bridgette, after asking if she would like to go to Sargent's Goods for some dress fabric. Mrs Borden the second was actually struck by an instrument between am inch and 1.5 inches which isn't possible for a hatchet. Now Mrs Churchill, the nextdoor neighbor, saw Lizzie shortly after the bodies are found, noted she looked pale and dismayed. One thing never mentioned is the fact that Lizzie is on large doses of morphine due to "hysteria". All information given to police, any information given during testimony she is under the influence. From my experience in the house her personality is that of a diva. She spent far to much time with children and animals to be a psychopath. Bull headed and bossy sure, hate filled enough kill two people? I don't think so. Now if you have made it this far you are wondering "who is this guy," well I happen to be one of the guides for the house and knowing Lizzie is my job.

@geslinam9703

4 жыл бұрын

Was she on morphine before the murders? It was an easily acquired household drug at the time....and generally people on it are docile and chill.

@kingcr1mz0n71

4 жыл бұрын

@@geslinam9703 she was not. Dr Bowen prescribed it for her due to "hysteria" from what I have researched at the house, Lizzie was an active young lady. And like you pointed out, if you're on morphine, you won't be doing much of anything.

@geslinam9703

4 жыл бұрын

King Cr1mz0n yes, morphine was a common drug for women of the time, especially for hysteria - which is where the word hysterectomy came from. Doctors thought that women lost their minds when their uterus detached or something like that.

@LindaC616

4 жыл бұрын

Hey there! For some reason, I believe that you may have been the guide on one of my 3 trips there. Lol, it's a popular choice when friends and family come visit. I offer Nantucket, I offer Seven Gables, but no, it's Lizzie's place.😄

@PresAdams-bz2ep

4 жыл бұрын

Nice to meet you! What do you think of the hypothesis of a bastard half brother doing the actual killing? I rea a fictional book that supposed that.

Being a Borden who was not only born in fall river but worked for the fall river PD, I can say that that the city is still very divided on Lizzie's guilt.

@retha1875

Жыл бұрын

I also a Borden through my paternal grandmother and she was a distant relative. Although, one of my great aunts, who never married was Anna Mae Borden.

@aarondavis8943

Жыл бұрын

Any reasonable and honest person has to admit there's no way to know either way. She certainly _could_ be guilty and she certainly _could_ be innocent. Those are the only certainties regarding her role in the crime.

@HeadNtheClouds

Жыл бұрын

@@retha1875are any of your relatives psychotic?

@jamest1831

Жыл бұрын

Sorry to read that. I hope things will change with the passing of time. The Bordens I believe are related to Sir Robert Borden 1853- 1937 Prime Minister of Canada during WWI

@williamfoley5687

11 ай бұрын

Thanks for comment,Jesus is the way

You summed it up beautifully: "Lizzie Borden's guilt and her innocence are BOTH improbable for many reasons." Now THAT is why the fascination of that hot day in Fall River will never go away,

@poetcomic1

2 жыл бұрын

As well as Jon Benet Ramsey case.

@humaneleaguelancPA

2 жыл бұрын

@@poetcomic1 Yes. Again, like Lizzie, a probable sexual abuse/trafficking of Jon Benet, in my opinion.

@gmamagillmore4812

2 жыл бұрын

No you didn't, There are several excelent books on this never ending story, you should read one. It's a lot more interesting than your version.

Feel you treated Lizzie fairly and didn't do a hatchet job on her. Please do an analysis of people who cannot seem to stop using puns.

@KB4QAA

4 жыл бұрын

I think the doctor took a pretty good swing at the case!

@cherylp7841

4 жыл бұрын

You all are cut ups!

@rayross997

4 жыл бұрын

@@cherylp7841 Punaneurosis is a much misunderstood condition.

@cherylp7841

4 жыл бұрын

I think I suffer from punaneurosis. I think those who are around me suffer the most from my disorder.

@TrumpImmortal

4 жыл бұрын

😑

My dad died of cancer in March; I was his sole caregiver; I was NUMB for about a week, then it hit me like a ton of bricks. It isn't fair for anyone to judge someone else based on their reaction to death in the family.

@stephaniespc

Жыл бұрын

Exactly It was odd to be unmarried at the time and she reads autistic when I hear everything but everyone spoke differently back then so I wasn't sure . I have autism in my family and it was just a feeling I got and maybe why she didn't get married because they didn't understand that or have support back then . But they spoke so uniquely back then and perhaps she was just not good with social and they never met husbands. I don't think she did it at all If she wasn't that ..she could have been learning disabled. Her dad wasn't perfect but she didn't seem to want to leave and her dad bought another place for the girls . They just stayed w their dad and step mom ..

@Teffi_Club

3 ай бұрын

​@@stephaniespc many women didn't get married for various reasons.

@stephaniespc

3 ай бұрын

@Teffi_Club true.

@animalantics5898

Ай бұрын

I think her age and class worked against her. Even though they were wealthy, they weren't high society. I think there was a lack of suitable men that fit into her class or she into theirs.

The fact that she said "someone came in and killed him!" sealed it for me. She was covering her tracks with her first sentence. Her other behaviors leading up to the murders (including trying to poison her WHOLE FAMILY) were giant red flags.

@TheBerkeleyBeauty

2 жыл бұрын

What makes you think she tried to poison her family? There are reports that her step mother AND her father insisted on them eating spoiled mutton on more than a few occasions.

@poetcomic1

2 жыл бұрын

Her explanations - buying poison to kill moths in a fur or searching for a fishing weight (?) in the barn were totally off the wall.

@denisemariani3758

2 жыл бұрын

Maybe she was referring to Emma who might have came and went back to Fair Haven.The raincoat was missing.

@ToniHunterOne

2 жыл бұрын

@@poetcomic1 but she didn't get to purchase the prussic acid.

@zxyatiywariii8

Жыл бұрын

Yes, if _"someone came in and killed him!"_ were her first words, that's a big red flag. Just like the woman who suffocated her boyfriend in a suitcase, murderers are quick to give alibis where innocent people wouldn't even be thinking of that.

"Two can keep a secret if one of them is dead". Lizzie wasn't going to confess - ever. She knew her best defense was silence.

@Paslayas

3 жыл бұрын

Love the quote.❤️

@countessdelancret2447

2 жыл бұрын

I adore that song

24:21 I don't see how you reach the conclusion that Lizzie Borden didn't have much to gain by the deaths of her step-mother and father. 1) She gained her independence from a controlling father. 2) She inherited a fortune, even after dividing it with her sister. 3) She rid herself of step-mother Abby, whom she hated. 4) She bought a fine home on "The Hill", the prestigious part of town where she lived an upper-class lifestyle. 5) She opened her home to the bohemian crowd she enjoyed (actors, painters, musicians) for parties that would have been forbidden while living with her father and step-mother. In those days being involved with the theatre/actors was considered scandalous by religious folk. 6) She transformed from a plain, provincial spinster into a grand, fashionable lady of independent means, free at last to pursue her passions: animal welfare, the arts, and perhaps even a romantic relationship with the actress Nance O'Neil.

@johnfd0210

4 жыл бұрын

I agree with you. She certainly had almost everything to gain with the death of her father and step mother.

@GOPA90

4 жыл бұрын

Agreed.

@annascott3542

4 жыл бұрын

Agreed.

@MK-Hogan

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah if you know all about this case you know that she was very envious of the wealthy people who got to enjoy their wealth while Lizzie’s father was very tight fisted and selective about his spending. It’s apparent by how she lived after collecting her inheritance that she felt stifled and bored living under her father’s rule. She went full party girl after the trial.

@000neuro4

4 жыл бұрын

Agreed

Dr. Todd is cranking em’ out lately and I’m so here for it !

@andrewt836

4 жыл бұрын

Seagall Alwajih Ain’t he just! And each one is still the same top quality. Keep it going Dr Grande

@worsethanjoerogan8061

4 жыл бұрын

He's on lockdown like the rest of us presumably. A lot of KZread channels seem extra productive lately!

@funclassylassy4426

4 жыл бұрын

So is Narc Survivor. He's doing a fantastic job with his!

@kellyteacherforlife7165

4 жыл бұрын

@Seagall Alwajh.. Spot on. Loving it every day!!!!!!

@nishottara777

4 жыл бұрын

I know-I'm hooked on this channel!

The hated stepmother was her intended victim. I think she felt she had to kill her father, there was no way he wouldn't think she had done it. Killing both of them turned out to be an effective strategy for her, though it was very risky considering Bridget was around. People love to imagine scenarios where she was innocent, but the fact there was so much time between the murders proves that she alone did it. She was IN THE HOUSE, people, an innocent Lizzie would have at least heard Abby being murdered.

I think we need to remember that we have very little information about her childhood and her behaviors throughout her life. What we do know is that her mother passed when she was a toddler. That would definitely impact her and would be a loss. What was their relationship like? We don't know. What we do know is that Lizzie was not close with her stepmother whom she had since she was around 4. If the stepmother was loving toward Lizzie and her sister, then why wasn't that affection/love given back? I think that sheds some light on her compassion/empathy/relationships. I would also dig deeper into what type of parent her father was. Was he cold, distant (yes, I know he bought her gifts), formal, involved? How many nanny's did Lizzie have as a young child which would have resulted in more losses? All of those experiences contribute to her possibly developing a personality disorder such as Borderline. Also, it shouldn't be overlooked that people in the home felt nauseous in the days prior to the murders. Was she attempting to poison them and that didn't work out? Lizzie is also trying to buy lethal chemicals (could be used a a weapon) in the days preceding the murders and the pharmacist wouldn't sell it to her (if he trusted her and believed her reason for needing it, then why not sell it to her?). Women in her day and age and economic status of course volunteered. It's what they did. So I don't give too much credit to that as showing her compassion for others. Plus, people with Borderline Personality disorder can be compassionate and have some empathy for others in certain situations. They are not psychopaths. However, they can have uncontrollable rage, be manipulative, AND make themselves out to be the victim. Based on lack of evidence, stories, etc. of her childhood, we just don't know enough about her past behaviors to say dysfunctional/violent behaviors didn't exist. They could have, but maybe people explained it away, dismissed it, or didn't know how to handle it so it wasn't discussed. We do know she was accused of shoplifting and killing a cat. So, if she's wealthy, why shoplift? What's that about? If she has so much compassion, why kill an animal? If she's so well liked, who were her longtime friends? Did she have any? And what did they say about her? We have to remember the culture of the upper class in the 1800's and also take all of that into consideration. Overall, what are the chances of someone walking into the house, murdering Mrs. Borden, waiting around for Mr. Borden, and then killing him. It was overkill for both people, so it's likely the murderer had a personal relationship with them and was angry/enraged with them. Who was that? Why were there no other suspects? I think it's likely that she did commit the murders.

@stjudeprayer7

Жыл бұрын

the little one meeting ('hello there , I'm your new mama') or whatever.... the new wife. Did this person show love only with stipulation.... and somehow probable that the 4 yr old was sensitive to the limits of acceptance. It's a long time to hold a grudge --- and those who see yet do nothing, well, he too had to be punished. No one mentioned seeing a stranger who had blood spatter on his clothing --- did they? had to be an 'inter-familial'" pay-back occurrence.

@melaniesumner167

Жыл бұрын

Qq+q2q was

@sandyshirley5079

Жыл бұрын

@@stjudeprayer7. Accounts I’ve read say that stepmother was a shrew who was as controlling with the girls as the father was with her and the girls. No wonder the sisters resented her. It went both ways. They were his blood, but she was his wife and mistress of the household. Abby would not let anybody forget that. What love? It may have been for show in public but not real. I can’t imagine this. It’s so foreign from my own experience. Poor girls.

@handsomepetevideos

4 ай бұрын

The cat killing story has no evidence to back it up. I don’t think we can really believe that it’s true. She cared for pigeons that were in the barn - which her father ultimately killed because he didn’t want kids coming around to hunt them.

I have really studied this case carefully and if you dig deep enough you will find that Lizzie had a great love and respect for animals. Her father had killed all her homing pigeons not long before his death. This could have triggered her rage but I believe she had help. When she died she left all her money to the care of animals so the killing of a cat in her past was most likely a rumour.

@yayhandles

10 ай бұрын

Those pigeons were not pets; that myth has been debunked.

A few months before the murder Andrew Borden actually beheaded Lizzie's pet pigeons with an axe in a fit of temper because he claimed the birds were a nuisance. That detail always made me sympathetic toward Lizzie, guilty or not.

@melissam597

4 жыл бұрын

I don’t blame her, if anyone did that to my cats they’d be dead

@Wrz2e

4 жыл бұрын

@@melissam597 I know right. I guess times have changed and people's sensibilities about animals have changed too.

@bonnievandergriff8272

4 жыл бұрын

@Jane Marsee Yes that is true. However for someone who was not married and had no serious prospects for marriage. Lizzie Borden could have projected her love and affection onto her birds as a substitute for not having a man to love her. It would not have been easy in the era in which she lived to be a "spinster" as she would have been considered weird or pitied by others. It would not justify her actions if she murdered her father for killing her pets, but whatever psychological condition she may have had, she may have killed her father for killing the pets and somehow rationalized it in her mind. Not sure about the stepmother.

@addie_is_me

4 жыл бұрын

I never heard about his killing her birds. And he used an axe? That is very interesting, indeed. Oh, I hate that guy! Poor Lizzie.

@addie_is_me

4 жыл бұрын

@Jane Marsee That depends.

John Morse, the uncle, was also suspect with his sudden and unusual visit, beyond perfect alibi, arguement with Andrew over money, and return to the house. When he returned, police were everywhere and people milling around but he didn't ask what was wrong? He went around back and ate pears!

@maureenreagan9544

2 ай бұрын

Yeah, the pear-eating is, to me, VERY weird behavior. That guy was somehow involved in the murders. Very, very fishy.

Years ago I helped publish a book that described why they feel the “secret” half brother did this crime because he was seen as an outsider to the family

I used to study and read her case files on my down time. I read the forensic reports, blood splatter reports, the police statement reports, court transcripts etc. I think we can all make a biased opinion one way or the other... But shoddy police work will keep this one cold. The M.O. of this brutal display of savagery in a homicide is 1. Someone who knew the vic well enough to be really pissed... 2. Or a straight up sociopath. As someone with a humble law background I like her for it. She had motive, she had opportunity, and going off the hints of possible childhood trauma loss of mother and potential sexual abuse by father... She could have mustered the rage.

@JDogggg69

7 ай бұрын

Maybe she ratcheted up the brutality to make her uncle look like the perp. When the poison failed, she couldn't use the Irish maid as a convenient fall guy. In which case, this would speak to her being a sociopath.

Since I am an overly simplistic person, what points to Lizzie's guilt to me was her hatred towards her step mother, the frustration with her father's parsimony & the dress with the wet paint that was burned. I just can't account as to why Lizzie was so clean after the murders, except for bloody rags soaking in a basin down in the cellar that Lizzie said were menstrual rags. So who knows? Thank you for another very interesting video. Cheers!

@Dizzydollie7

4 жыл бұрын

The movie with Christina Ricci shows her committing the murders either in her undergarments or flat out naked. Which is definitely a good way to avoid blood stains, even if that’s not what happened I found it interesting

@longwhitemane

4 жыл бұрын

@@Dizzydollie7 Good point! I forgot all about that. Cheers!

@majorkade

4 жыл бұрын

Sister said she burned the dress, not Lizzie. Maybe nothing to this, or maybe she helped her.

@longwhitemane

4 жыл бұрын

@@majorkade So her SISTER burned the dress, not Lizzie? Hmmm...looked it up, sister testified to this in court. I know the sister hated step mom, too. So it makes sense that sister might have lent Lizzie a helping hand, even in court testimony.

@majorkade

4 жыл бұрын

@@longwhitemane I got it off the Dateline special the other night. Another angle might be that if the sister had nothing to do it, she would have gotten Lizzie's share of the inheritance if Lizzie had really done it and been found guilty. Lots of little ways to analyze this. Also, Dateline reported that the sisters had a real "falling out" years later, long after they had moved in together into the swankier home,. The sister left Lizzie and never spoke to her again. lol Really. More to speculate on.

I also have heard the theory that Andrew had repeatedly molested Lizzie. Maybe Abby knew and so Lizzie had rage toward her, as well as Andrew. This could also explain why Andrew would buy Lizzie expensive gifts, despite normally being frugal.

@cynthiahardsog657

2 жыл бұрын

NO, NO, NO!! Andrew did not molest Lizzie. I wish some people would stop saying that! Please stop!

@jhonklan3794

2 жыл бұрын

Ah, yes. The good ole it must be the mans fault

@susanfleming2271

2 жыл бұрын

Makes sense.

@andreadoherty4259

2 жыл бұрын

@@cynthiahardsog657 how do you know? I don't know very much about this case. The brutality of it made me wonder if she had been abused by one or both of them.

@humaneleaguelancPA

2 жыл бұрын

I was scanning the comments waiting for someone to mention this; this was my thought. I think Lizzie was attractive, why would she not be married? Maybe the old man, didn't want a son-in-law in on any money. And quite convenient for the father to have a "sex partner" with single girls in the home and a wife (didn't Grande say she was around 200lbs?). Unfortunately, these types of things happened back then. And if their was a bastard son, all the more reason to not have a mistress. If Lizzie was sexually abused/raped...I would say, yeah, their could be rage. She would have been a prisoner in her own home.

Hey, very interesting videos, thank you, I always enjoy them. Lizzie Borden was my grandfather's Sunday school teacher! He swore by her innocence, saying that he couldn't possibly believe she committed the crime.

@g.a.6978

3 жыл бұрын

Well, her father wasn't a very popular guy but its all her 🙄. I dont buy it.

@karenpoteet751

3 жыл бұрын

Sometimes it's the people you least suspect....I still think she did it. She got a lot of money when they died, bought a grand home, got to do whatever she wanted to.....

@caroliner2029

3 жыл бұрын

Narcissists hide in churches. My mother was a case in point. She maintained a facade of being nice in public, but was a monster behind closed doors. Narcissists need attention from people like they need air. They'll involve themselves in charitable activities that make people think that they're nice, but they're utterly self-serving. They especially love positions of authority over vulnerable people.

@karenpoteet751

3 жыл бұрын

@@caroliner2029 I have some of those in my own family...so I know exactly what you mean. My mother and dad were wonderful people...but other people in my family aren't.

@susantobin6750

3 жыл бұрын

@@g.a.6978 not do I

I agree with your conclusion. In addition, I read her father had given some of his property to Abby and her family members. A property had just been given again recently. Witnesses said Lizzie was very upset about it. I see that as additional motive.

@Lydia-vt5uz

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, this is related in the excellent book, A Private Disgrace, by Victoria Lincoln. The girls were pretty much at war with the parents over the first property transfer; then they found out their father was planning to transfer a much-loved family property to Abby and her family. This may be what pushed her over the edge.

As soon as Lizzie was found innocent, she purchased "Maplecroft" a house on "The HIll" where upper society lived. I've read a lot of books on Lizzie, but I think the one written by Victoria Lincoln was the most decisive. Victoria was of the upper society, born and grew up in Falls River, she knew Lizzie by sight (her house was 1 1/2 blocks away), her parents generation were Lizzie's peers. She asked her mother once why Lizzie was not liked, her mother replied tha Lizzie was "unkind" to her parents. She was very descriptive of the mores of that society. Although the upper crust pretended to be supportive of Lizzy, she was cut from their society when she was released. Her shoplifting was not just that one time at the Tilden-Thurber gallery. She was a well-known shoplifter. The clerks at the store were just instructed to write down what she stole and a bill was sent to Andrew. Note that Lizzie's allowance was quite liberal, she could have easily paid for these items. So I believe she was thrill-seeking and impulsive. She was also an animal lover, she left a rather large bequest to the local humane society. She had pet pigeons in the barn, her father had killed them all a short time before because they were attracting boys to the barn. Pretty sure she had to be very angry about that. But nothing was ever communicated verbally in the Borden household, even Bridgette said they never raised their voices while she was there. The Borden's called her Maggie, because it was the name of the last maid. Strange. When the house got broken into the year before nothing was taken except Abby's things. They weren't expensive items, things like tram tickets, costume jewelry. They always locked the doors, even their room doors (which is kind of telling). Lizzy told the police that she believed the thief used a 10 penny nail to break into her parents room. Her father soon asked the police to stop the investigation, but from then on would place the key to his room on the mantel in front of Lizzy, from Bridgette's testimony. It's really a great read, and I've read them all.

@Tam5115

4 жыл бұрын

The 'shoplifting' has no basis in fact. The truth was that neither Lizzie or Emma were ever accepted members of the upper class in Fall River. They weren't deliberately ostracized, they just weren't in that social circle that those on The Hill were.You've heard of "the 6 families" (or similar concept)? The leading families of a city? Borden was one of them, but a different branch of the family was really rich. Durfee is also one. The pigeon story is unclear. No real indication they were Lizzie's, most people had them at the time. If Andrew killed them all, it was most likely because they were ill and dying. It's one of those stories that grow out of a tragedy, meaning and intent distorted in order to help explain why, ya know?

@amyprice3661

4 жыл бұрын

Just purchased the book!

@allysonkitchens5840

4 жыл бұрын

I agree, regarding Mrs. Lincoln’s book.

@feralbluee

4 жыл бұрын

i was really wondering about her father and now i know i was right. those poor girls. and her step mother was complicit in this, although in those times, women really couldn't do much. she could have supported the girls more though. let them know how upset she was at his treatment of them. i'm sure it would have helped a lot. (comes from personal experience.)

@bettepainter6144

4 жыл бұрын

Deadly Squirrel m

I always thought Lizzie, her sister and the maid were in on it together. As far as I’m aware there is little to no evidence of her sisters whereabouts during the murders. I would really like to see the timeline of when she left to visit friends and returned and any absences that may have been witnessed while she was there. I think it is possible that Lizzies sister committed the murder with Lizzie and the maids help. It would explain why they supposedly heard nothing and there was no blood on Lizzie. Was there time for Lizzies sister to return, commit the murders, clean up and change clothes at another location and then return to the friends house? I wonder why they never investigated her sister further?

@jkcliff2956

Жыл бұрын

I read one book that made a convincing case for a conspiracy just as you describe.

@sticksbass

Жыл бұрын

but didnt the maid value her job?

@ruthsmith1694

3 күн бұрын

@@sticksbass the maid could have been bribed and paid a lot of money for her silence.

When I was growing up my Dad bought an encyclopedia type series called Crimes and Punishment and I there was this story complete with graphic photos. I’ve been hooked ever since and I was 6 years old! I love your series!

There was a theory that the girls had been molested by their dad and the step mother new about it. If it was true the maid probably knew too. It does seem strange that the daughters were never allowed to go out into society, have friends, date and get married. The father controlled everything.

@gaylebaker8419

4 жыл бұрын

It wasn't that they weren't allowed, it's that their father chose to keep the family in such primative living conditions that they never had suitors.

@HoosierMama27

4 жыл бұрын

That makes total sense why they would murder him. Sounds very similar to the Menendez brothers

@BouncyBrown

4 жыл бұрын

Yes! The historians who have studied the case believe this. One weird detail I remember hearing was that Lizzy gave her father her school pin or broach. At the time it was something that girls gave to their boyfriends so it would have been considered very weird and creepy to give it to your dad.

@jujujewel2172

4 жыл бұрын

I am just throwing this out as a bit of a guess... but with their mother gone, and this new interloper stepmother they didn't like or get along with, might even have despised, Lizzy mostly, would it be possible that it was given as a token of affection, & since they maybe wanted to stick it to their new "mother" ("DON'T YOU DARE call her my mother!" (Lol from the 2018 movie clip I saw, that was given what looks like a horror treatment, a more malevolent background story of intrigue to go with the grissly murder) Sticking it was also meant as a pun about the "pin" btw. Ok I've made my point ;) teehee

@sandrahilton9122

4 жыл бұрын

At this time period the man of the family controlled wife and children (sons included).

Dr. Grande, I like your take on the trauma angle. Not just because of her mother's death, but also because her father's not providing a dowry so the girls could marry was likely the cause of much resentment from them, and evidence of selfishness and lack of concern for them by their father. Being spinsters dependent on a father would be a much less ( potentially) rewarding lifestyle than having one's own husband, children, and household. It was a major plot point of the novels of that time. Henry James' Washington Square is particularly relevant, as it also features a father who could afford to provide a dowry, but did not due to various psychological factors. For a woman of that era, to be denied a dowry and hence marriage, was a hostile act on the part of a parent. Plus there is his unscrupulous business practices. It is also quite telling that they had only one servant. Even relatively poor households at that time had at least one servant. So the girls were likely household drudges.

@StephanieLand1

4 жыл бұрын

Excellent points.

@summydots

4 жыл бұрын

Stephanie, I agree.

@EarthAirFireWaterSpirit

4 жыл бұрын

Good points

@adalineproulx9773

4 жыл бұрын

Thats interesting about the dowry. Lizzie didnt want a husband she was gay.

@gilbertpinfold

4 жыл бұрын

@@adalineproulx9773 I'm curious, what makes you say this? I wonder if a sheltered Victorian woman could even conceptualize of herself as gay in 1892. From my (admittedly small) familiarity with this case it occurred before social trends to expand women's roles and rights, but maybe Lizzie was a cutting edge trendsetter. Women at this time did not have many opportunities to experiment sexually, unless they were of lower class (and more likely to become opportunistic victims). Of course, human nature probably hasn't changed much, so some with higher recklessness would have experimented, often to dire consequences; for instance August Strindberg's play, Miss Julie, 1888, where the heroine commits suicide after the butler seduces her and she realizes his cruel, ruthless, and exploitive nature would make her life with him a Hell. Of course, people did have romantic and sexual experiences then, but the stakes were so much higher. Forced marriage, disgrace, or suicide are sanctions that probably dampened wholesale freedom. A woman's summer of sexual awakening, and subsequent compromises, Is the subject of Edith Wharton's 1917 novel, Summer. The role of mother, wife, and head of household probably was superior to that of unmarried household drudge, as we see when Charlotte Lucas chooses to marry the awful Mr. Collins in Austen's Pride and Prejudice (1813). But I'm not a historian, so I'm only speculating.

You didn't mention her sister stayed by her side during the trial, but after she was acquitted, I'm not sure how long after, her sister moved away and reportedly never had contact with her again. I've always wondered if she slipped up and let her sister know she was guilty and she just couldn't accept it.

@lb8471

2 ай бұрын

They lived together for a long while. Emma didn't approve of Lizzie's relationship with and constant parties for Nance O'Neil, who was a lesbian. That is the reason that is mostly given for Emma's separation from Lizzie. To be honest, I don't believe Lizzie was guilty by herself. I believe the murders were planned and that Emma, Uncle John, and Bridgett all knew about it. I also believe that the murders happened either the night before or much earlier the morning of, which would explain the time to clean up the mess.

I'm really surprised you didn't mention the well known suspicion that Lizzie was sexually molested by her father. They even refer to it during tours of the Lizzie Borden house. That certainly explains the rage.

@TheGoldbaxter

10 ай бұрын

Just because people suspect that doesnt make it true. There is no evidence of it

@TammyM36

8 ай бұрын

There’s absolutely no evidence to support that whatsoever.

@levity90

5 ай бұрын

​@@TheGoldbaxterand where exactly would the evidence come from? It's not out of the realm of possibility at all. And given the behavior of the sisters, abuse of some kind can absolutely be suspected.

You're getting a like even before I watch the video because you never disappoint, lol.

@h.borter5367

4 жыл бұрын

I'm getting used to Dr. Grande. I liking him too, now.

Great video Dr. Grande. Few points though: Lizzie was on morphine when she was initially questioned by the police, she wasn't identified by the pharmacist, someone said "that's Ms. Borden" (something along those lines) when she left; there were hundreds of Ms. Borden's in Fall River at the time. Abby Borden was supposed to babysit for her sister the day of the crime, the sister changed plans last minute. There was a policeman's ball the day of the crimes and the police were working with a skeleton crew, and it was also an election year; someone needed to be convicted. There is a surviving letter written by Lizzie in prison expressing deep anguish related to the loss of her father. In Fall River the way they lived was keeping with their station ( no electricity or indoor bathrooms) there was extreme wealth around (think Hetty Green, Newport, RI). The Borden's were merely comfortable in relation. Yes, I have always thought something highly unusual went on that day. Finally, making the statements fearing for her fathers safety...something was going on that that family didn't want out for public consumption.

Abuse will make a person remain calm in scary situations. They just shut down. They also tell people what they think the person wants to hear. I really like this vid! Thank you, I'm a new subscriber today!!!

@8rr725

3 жыл бұрын

But there's no proof she was abused. People just keep speculating on this.

I've always been able to be extremely calm in high stress situations. I had no idea that could be a bad thing! When I was in the military it was part of our training.

I’ve always felt that the evidence from this crime had been hidden under floor boards someplace in the house. I wonder if anyone has lifted every board from top to bottom. Wouldn’t that be something.

I've read two alternate interpretations of this story, both of which exonerate Lizzie Borden, though I have forgotten the authors and titles. I just looked up the wikipedia article as a reference. The article states that the girls' maternal uncle was staying in the house at the time to discuss "business" with Andrew Borden. One fairly recent alternate interpretation accuses this uncle of the murder, on financial grounds. The other, a book I read many years ago, details the stress in the house from the debilitating heat, the determination by at least one of the parents to finish the rapidly deteriorating leg of lamb (appearing at every meal, including breakfast) before buying anything else, and the insistence by Mrs. Borden over several days that the maid wash the windows. The maid did not wash the windows until the day of the murders. This book (in contrast to the wikipedia article) states the Bridget Sullivan confessed, not to lying about Lizzie's testimony, but to the murders themselves. The reason given for Lizzie's changing account of where she was, was embarrassment. She reportedly was in the basement washing out her menstrual rags. In context of the mores of the time, most women in her situation would have shaded the truth, too.

@pookiepookie8669

Жыл бұрын

I read about the menstrual blood also. But it is also where the uncle could have washed off. He had the strength, anger over finances and an excuse of laying down. How could she have killed he father in a corset? Think they were all in on it.

@SirenaSpades

Жыл бұрын

In the upper northeast, these mores still exist.... I don't know where you are but we still have etiquette up here and are very discrete.

@Rottimail

Жыл бұрын

No man would have bludgeoned an elderly couple that way. That's not a man's nature. It was entirely personal. The murderer dumped their emotional hatred entirely. That is the trait of a woman.

This was so interesting. Also I always thought the morphine played a role in the so called " lack of feeling" etc. She was essentially toddling betwesedation and impairment.

I love your material and your humor...subtle and awesome! I just finished my doctorate and your SPSS videos saved me!!! Thank you!💜

How odd this video popping up when just yesterday I was having a conversation about this. I'm reading Parallel Lives, a book from the Fall River Historical Society. It's an extremely intensive look at the time period, the city and its people. Journals, letters, official documents and records (merchants and the like) are used to try and get the best perspective of actual events. One of the first things you mentioned, the house, isn't what it was assumed to be. It had central heating (radiators are shown in pictures) they were connected to city water, and had a water closet, not just an "outhouse" type system. Not being connected to gas isn't nearly as backward as it's portrayed to be. That would have been very expensive to do, a lot of people didn't trust it, many even wealthier folks didn't use it and many of the street lights in town still were lit at dusk, and extinguished at daybreak. There is zero evidence of the "shoplifting legend" Despite extensive detailed records of merchants for years, and every transaction and person(s) involved. Lizzie was one of the founding members and one of the strongest supporters of their local "Humane Society, ASPCA" and did in fact leave them a sizeable donation in her will. The largest of her will, iirc. One item that I did find odd, was that "friends" had remarked on how Andrew Borden didn't seem to like,let, or approve of his daughters socializing. Things that make you go hmmm.

@grayhatjen5924

3 жыл бұрын

I have not heard of this book. Looking into it now.

@mellie4174

2 жыл бұрын

Definitely makes you go hmmmmm

@zxyatiywariii8

Жыл бұрын

Thanks, this sounds interesting!

The detectives from the epstein case would have ruled it a double suicide.

@mechellenorris7951

4 жыл бұрын

Hes alive and well in israel

@addie_is_me

4 жыл бұрын

It is funny because it is true. Good one.

@jessestewart169

3 жыл бұрын

🙂

@arielagazin2986

2 жыл бұрын

🤣🤣

Dear Dr. Grande, Peace. Thank you for the video. I found it fascinating, but I have one caveat you failed to mention. There was another axe murderer operating in the same area at the same time. His name was Jose Correa deMello, and all the murders were very similar. It was believed he couldn't have committed the Borden murders because he was out-of-town, but dates and times were not accurately kept then. It's just food for thought.

Lizzie did it with the old heavy iron used for ironing clothing. She put a large dress on over her clothing to prevent the splatter from getting on her. She burned the dress later in the stove. EVERYBODY in that house knew she did it after she had done it, but everybody hated the victims with a passion. I think some hush money was paid out and people were sworn to secrecy. I also think there where failed attempts at killing them prior to the murders. Money can make entire groups of people do some strange and evil things.

Great video as always! One point I remember from a documentary I watched on Lizzie is that she was reputed to be deeply resentful of her father not buying a house up on the hill where the wealthier community lived. She was unable to attend balls and luncheons that the wealthier people had, and she felt entitled to this too, but resentful that this wasn’t her life. She resented Andrew not buying a house on the hill because he could afford it. There was no running water in their house. Her step mothers sister got into financial woes and nearly lost her house, and Andrew bought her house for her, causing Lizzie and Emma to protest. He was known to be very frugal, yet he opened his wallet generously this time. This for me is an important point... Lizzie was supposed to be very angry about this. Also, this documentary says Lizzie did in fact have a history of shop lifting; she would steal from a local store, and they simply took a note of what was stolen and Andrew would reimburse them. There apparently was a a history of criminality in her shoplifting. In one of the documentaries, an older lady who knew Lizzie in her later years also spoke up and spoke of her kind personality. So quite a conflicting elements. Of course, it is hard to know as this was so long ago, and the collection of evidence is not nearly up to modern day standards, but I agree with you Dr Grande, it does seem likely she was guilty. There was motive - she hated Abby, she resented the favouring of Abbys sister by her father, and she wanted a finer lifestyle, so perhaps this was the motive for killing Andrew.... Interesting assessment as always, great learning to be had! Thank you for this video Dr Grande. Hope you are safe for COVID-19!

@jenningsrountree8304

2 жыл бұрын

It seems that there would have been some blood on her if she were guilty. I cried like a baby at my friend St Mary of Griner's funeral, but I didn't see her own daughter she'd a tear. I am sure her daughter loved St. Mary, but people react differently. I have been at stoic reactions at some funerals. I suppose one could be extremely cold, in shock, or possess "an English reserve."

I just learned of this channel. Very interesting presentation, Dr. Grande!---I'd like to share some of my own thoughts about this case. (Some may have been mentioned below.) 1) I've seen the coroner's photos and I think it's possible Mrs. Borden could have fallen to the floor without much sound: Women wore a lot of clothing then and the layers of material provided sound-absorbing padding. I don't recall if there was a rug rather than bare floor boards, something else to absorb sound. Mrs. Borden also was in an kneeling or bowing down position so may not have fallen straight down with all of her weight at once. Also the Borden house looks rather large to me. I think it's possible for something to happen to Mrs. Borden without it being heard above or below in the possibly brief time it took for the murder to happen. 2) I've heard the house has no hallways because Mr. Borden thought them a waste of space so maybe the walls and doors also kept sound from extending far. 3) One documentary I saw mentioned an odd inheritance law concerning widows: if Mrs. Borden died second, her family would have received a big portion of Mr. Borden's estate. There would have been lot less for Lizzie and Emma to inherit. 4) I've heard that shortly before six members of the DeFeo family were killed in the famous Amityville murders in 1975, Mrs. DeFeo had said "something terrible" was going to happen, much like Lizzie had said many years earlier. 5) I once had a really awful roommate I wish I could tell you about. He was sadistic and I consider him capable of doing a lot. It would be interesting to get your thoughts on HIM!

@gloriamontgomery6900

4 жыл бұрын

The Borden’s house didn’t have hallways because that was a common thing in Victorian era houses. Each room opens into the next

@christinewhitehair6623

4 жыл бұрын

My family owned a house built in 1865. It had wide spacious hallways with bedrooms opening on to it

@susanmarie4891

2 жыл бұрын

The house had originally been a double - one home up and one home down

This is an amazing mystery that still leaves people scratching their heads to this day. That said, I can't escape the feeling that their is some missing information, evidence if you will, that is not in the record. What would have made sense of all of this? Thanks for the video. Appreciated.

Excellent assessment! - As a former Homicide Detective, I've "Armchair-ed" the Lizzie Borden case many, many times - and over the past 20 years I've read at least 4 full books on the case - as well as numerous articles - and although there are several sides, theories, etc.. I feel that Lizzie had nothing to do with her Father and Stepmother's grisly murders. No idea who did - (although some interesting potential suspects) - but it wasn't Lizzie...

@Rottimail

Жыл бұрын

Lizzis is the only one who could have done it, She was completely capable of it driven by money and emotion hatred.

@james5193

Жыл бұрын

Who else would have motive and be in the house? It's the money, nothing else.

@khepresh

5 ай бұрын

I hope to God you never investigated any murders. If you did there are a lot of killers walking free and victims without justice.

Just an FYI -- the house is now a B&B. I toured it with a friend from Korea while on a road trip, and we could have stayed there if Hee Kyung hadn't decided that the house was too stuffy to be comfortable in the summer. (Since she's Korean, the idea of staying in the Lizzie Borden House didn't have any specific appeal to her.) It's very much worth a detour if you're traveling in the area.

@musicobsessive123

4 жыл бұрын

the new england area is surprisingly interesting for those interested in true crime .... h.h holmes was born in new hampshire, i think there's an exhibit in the building he was born / raised in. if you're ever in the area again, definitely check it out

@lynnmartz8739

4 жыл бұрын

My husband and I stayed the night back in 2010. Had the entire house to ourselves, slept in the room where Abby was killed. If I rolled on my right side and looked down, that was the spot where her body was found. The house is fairly large, has a front, side, and back entrances. I came to realize how noisy it would have been on a busy weekday morning with the windows open due to the heat and the road with horses and carts, etc right out front. The autopsies were done on the dining room table, Lizzie and Alice and I believe the uncle as well as Maggie the maid remained in the house. So I imagine that the only one who might have gotten any rest that night would have been Lizzie, since only she would have known there's no murderer lurking about(?). The night before we stayed some Ghost Story show had filmed there, and the hosts told us of how many 'ghostly occurrences' were staged.

@LindaC616

4 жыл бұрын

@@lynnmartz8739 On one of my visits (I've been more than once, it's a popular choice when family and friends visit, for some reason), the guid referred to go into the farthest nedroom back (Emma's?)...said she never felt comfortable in there...

@terribolan2010

4 жыл бұрын

Yes my hubby and I stayed 2 nights. One in the murder room and one in Lizzie's. Lots of reading material there. Books, case notes and trial news.

@MsChappy77

4 жыл бұрын

I went once to tour the home. It was very creepy! Not much has changed since 1892.

Second time you’ve posted when I’m supposed to be working on my social psych paper. It can wait another day. This is a sign 😂

@marceichelsheim1740

4 жыл бұрын

Exactly, it's a sign that you are prone to procrastination.

@TahtahmesDiary

4 жыл бұрын

😂😂😂💜

@mementomorgan6721

4 жыл бұрын

Marc Eichelsheim only during quarantine 😂 before that I always worked way ahead. It’ll get done. Eventually lol

@marceichelsheim1740

4 жыл бұрын

@@mementomorgan6721 I'm sure you don't overestimate ýour ability to get the job dunn. hahaha

@mementomorgan6721

4 жыл бұрын

Marc Eichelsheim 💀💀💀

Fascinating story! July of 2021, I was on my annual road trip from Illinois to the East Coast I had to stop in Fall River, MA to tour the Lizzy Borden House. During the tour, we were told that most likely Lizzy was guilty. It is speculated that Lizzy did this out of severe desperation. Had her stepmother out lived her father, she and her sister would eventually end up poor and living in despair, as their stepmother didn't care for them very much. As for her mental capacity during the trial, certain professional figures made sure she was well sedated as to not be capable of delivering a competent defense. It is rumored that others were aware of the horrible living conditions and strict conditions Mr. Borden made for his two daughters. There were certain townspeople were actually trying to protect Lizzy, and it worked. Another interesting fact, the ever so popular nursery rhyme "Lizzy Borden took an axe, and gave her mother forty whacks and gave her father forty-one" was just for rhyming affects. The mother suffered 18 whacks and her father suffered 11 whacks. It is plain to see who she disliked the most.

@slacktoryrecords4193

8 ай бұрын

Why do people keep misspelling her name? It’s right in the title of the video. Lizzie, not Lizzy.

@khepresh

5 ай бұрын

I think Lizzie saw what she did as self defence.

Andrew, Lizze and her sister are distant cousins of mine. Ever since learning that, I've been fascinated by this case. This case has been so mishandled in every way possible. I really appreciate your input on the case, thanks Dr Todd!

@HollyFurgason

Жыл бұрын

Same here. I believe the Mrs. Brownell (my mother's name) that the sister was visiting wasn't just a friend but a cousin.

This was exceptional. I have studied this case and your grasp of the important details is thorough. However, I believe there was some question about whether Lizzie's alleged attempted purchase of prussic acid actually took place.

@larazanz

4 жыл бұрын

Julie McNeely-Kirwan there was inquest testimony where she admitted to trying to buy the Prussic acid but for the purpose of cleaning a stained dress

@Melody_On_Pawz1

4 жыл бұрын

D S She’s not disagreeing with anything you stated . She just simply stated that it is rumored that didn’t happen . She didn’t go try to buy it . ???

@Melody_On_Pawz1

4 жыл бұрын

strawberryseason Yea we all heard the video , but other documents state this isn’t true . That’s the point here

@Cissy2cute

3 жыл бұрын

I can't remember the trial transcript (which is available) but I have to check because if the pharmacy clerk had been put on the stand that would have proved it to be true.

@sheilagravely5621

2 жыл бұрын

Or, lizzie got an outsider to kill them.

Elizabeth Montgomery, who played Lizzie in the movie, is related to her!

@Elowuz

4 жыл бұрын

They were 6th cousins once removed so I think they shared a great x5 grandparent

@miriamhavard7621

4 жыл бұрын

EXCITING!!!

@Phinehas46

4 жыл бұрын

They are both dead now too.

@MsChappy77

4 жыл бұрын

Correct!

@themysteriousdomain8249

3 жыл бұрын

I see the resemblance!

And if Lizzie didn’t do it, who did? Some unknown person entered the house and made it up the stairs and killed Abby without being seen or heard? And then managed to stay in the house or leave and come back and kill Mr. Borden without being seen or heard? I find the scenario of an outsider being the murderer very difficult to believe.

@Tawroset

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly. The very same things that appear to exonerate Lizzie also would appear to exonerate everyone else. Does that mean the murders never happened?!

@michaeldupuis1317

3 жыл бұрын

Unless Lizzie allowed the intruder in to commit the murders

@Clearlyclynn

3 жыл бұрын

If you read other books on her, there is some speculation that Emma did it, and Lizzie was covering up for her. Apparently Andrew Borden was abusive as well.

This depiction is so much better than the movie "Lizzie." I absolutely love criminal profiling, and writing forensic reports.. Dr. Grande I appreciate what you bring to this platform! Thank you

I would love a video on Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka.

@MystiDawn

4 жыл бұрын

Yes! I agree!

@elisamastromarino7123

4 жыл бұрын

Yes! Especially Holmolka!

@SvenStadt

4 жыл бұрын

Canadian serial killers. I wonder if they're boring and dull as well.

@rubyattwood

4 жыл бұрын

SvenStadt excuse me?

@juliestewart2381

4 жыл бұрын

Whoa totally forgot about that case. I would enjoy an analysis!

If she did not do it, she knew who did and helped plan it in my opinion.

@MzShonuff123

4 жыл бұрын

I always felt she had help. I think Emma helped for sure. They fell out after Lizzie's trial and never spoke again.

@steppy3736

4 жыл бұрын

@@MzShonuff123 I never thought Emma was in on it, but I thought the maid was. I think Lizzie promised her money to keep her silence.

@sueboyd9345

3 жыл бұрын

What about the bastard son who was estranged from the father?

@Ripleys_mom

3 жыл бұрын

Emma wasn't in town the day of the murders

@Cissy2cute

3 жыл бұрын

@@sueboyd9345 Never existed.

This case has always made me feel sick to my stomach! There is something that feels very unnatural about the relationships between the father and the people living in the home !!! 😢.

When Lizzie yelled to Bridgette that her Father had been killed, she said that "Someone had come in" and murdered her Father. This seams to me to be an attempt to divert blame away from herself. Why wouldn't she say Fathers been murdered or someone murdered Father instead of "someone came in and murdered Father". I feel the murder was a spur of the moment one and not planned ahead, although her feeling that something bad was going to happen could have been her realizing that she was near her breaking point.

Anybody else squeal for joy when you see a new Dr Grande ? 🤗yeaaaaaay

@nocilantro_gack

4 жыл бұрын

Squeal....???

@Phinehas46

4 жыл бұрын

@@nocilantro_gack Squeal, as in a stuck hog.

@curtis7599

3 жыл бұрын

No. Weirdo.

I have been interested in the Lizzie Borden case for 20 years plus...and have watched numerous documentaries and read many articles..books etc...this is the first time that I have really thought about and focused on Lizzie's extract words...when you stayed them out loud..it really made me think.... I believe most people (especially if they were innocent of the crime)....esp a young women in that time..woukd have been so shocked and in such disbelief of what had occured...would be screaming...crying..and carrying on a great deal...and in total shock...and would not have been so calm...and to make comments as...."come quick...father is dead..someone came in and killed him".....I have always thought she was most likely quilty..but those exact words..for sure...make me have no doubts.. If you really thought "some stranger" came in "broke in"...what ever..any rational person....would be running out of the house screaming for help..as well as would be in fear of their own life...assuming she had no knowledge of whether the "killer" was still in the house or not!

@Tawroset

3 жыл бұрын

Excellent point, would any sane person hang around a house where a bloody murder (literally!) had just occurred? Why wasn't she terrified and running for the neighbors?

@SnowBall-hz6pu

3 жыл бұрын

@@Tawroset thank u

@Tawroset

3 жыл бұрын

@@SnowBall-hz6pu You're very welcome. In fact some people have used this as one argument in favor of Lizzie's guilt--only the murderer would have known that staying in the house at that time was perfectly safe with no killer lurking about. Of course maybe she was in shock, or foolhardy, or insanely courageous--but it does look suspicious!

@SnowBall-hz6pu

3 жыл бұрын

@@Tawroset agree!!

@Tawroset

3 жыл бұрын

@@SnowBall-hz6pu :-)

Dr. Grande, I read that Andrew Borden had talked about helping Abby's family financially, and that it caused Lizzie to be jealous. I also believe that Lizzie resented having to live with no electricity and no indoor bathroom, even though Andrew Borden could certainly afford those amenities. I so enjoy listening to you, sir! Thanks for your hard work.

I lived in Fall River for the first 18yrs of my life, so I thought it was cool that you were doing this video. I don't think Lizzy completed to act of murder, but I do believe her sister and a man (not 100% sure that it was the Uncle) planned it and carried it out, involving Lizzy only so she would be the scapegoat. The fact that the police didn't really investigate or gather evidence right away allows for too many unknowns to really know for sure though.

@Rottimail

Жыл бұрын

I believe it is entirely possible that John Morse came into town unannounced to talk Andrew out of changing his will as there was talk that he was leaving his wealth to Abby and her family as opposed to his daughters. They never found a new will however one of the officers made note of a roll of papers burner in the kitchen stove.

Please do Typhoid Mary next!!!! It’s so pertinent to what’s going on right now with covid-19.

@psefti

4 жыл бұрын

Bryan Velasco : why ? Mary was not mentally ill, She had a great deal of trouble understanding and believing she was a symptomatic and viewing the time element and understanding of viruses back then it is self explanatory.

@MishaMishaSoprano

2 жыл бұрын

That would be interesting!

Being that Abby Durfee Grey was a maternal cousin of mine I've always been fascinated with this case.

@Tawroset

3 жыл бұрын

I always felt so bad for poor Abby, she seemed to be a good person but the Borden "girls" never gave her a chance.

@amberhansen3806

Жыл бұрын

My great grandmother was Sarah Morse's cousin. My mom is the first to have not been born in Massachusetts. I would like to visit there soon.

'Parasitic lifestyle'? In her social class, it was quite normal for one or more daughters to remain spinsters and act as housekeepers and carers for their elderly parents, instead of marrying, or becoming nuns (if they were Roman Catholics). Leaving home and having a career, and possibly affairs, like the heroine of Tales of San Francisco, was just not an option.

@margeebechyne8642

2 жыл бұрын

Both daughters never married and that is unusual.

It was a hot day and people questioned Lizzy’s story about being in the loft of the barn. No one seemed to question the fact that Ms. Sullivan was napping on the third floor in that heat?

@gloriamontgomery6900

2 жыл бұрын

Yes! And , if you can find the famous picture of Andrew Borden lying on the sofa after his murder he is wearing pretty heavy clothing for such a hot day-he had to be properly attired no matter the weather-part of being respectable

@elavke5441

2 жыл бұрын

Missed that. I thought she was dusting or something

@greggbaker7120

2 жыл бұрын

Hi. It wasn't hot that day. The heatwave, was the week before. ( you can look it up )

@markpollock9572

2 жыл бұрын

@@elavke5441 Actually she was "Cleaning the windows"!

@cattycorner8

2 жыл бұрын

lol I thought about that too. Remember that just before that Abby had her out side washing all the windows. It might have been a little cooler in the house. also, she had probably been up since 5 or 6 am at the latest getting water, making breakfast and all her other morning chores. I often wonder how *anyone* slept without air conditioning back then!

One thing puzzles me: why have I never heard anyone analyze the movements of the uncle who came to visit? Could he have been familiar enough with the household to have come back and either waited between deeds or left and come back again to do the second? Could Lizzie and Bridget have known something? If Lizzie was the murderer, why exonerate Sullivan like that, when she might have made a convenient scapegoat? There are a lot of possibilities here; I guess that's why we're all still talking about it. Thanks for another interesting video.

@Rottimail

Жыл бұрын

It wouldn't have been the Uncle because he wouldn't have bludgeoned an elderly couple that way. The murders were entirely personal and carried out in such a way that the murderers emotions would have been competely spent. The murderer would have been calm after the initial excitement, if you will.

In his book, The Cases That Haunt Us, FBI profiler John Douglas does a psychological profile of the killer, looks at the circumstances of the case and concludes...Lizzie done it. Your take on the case is interesting as well. It was believed at the time that the jurors thought she did it but sympathized with her because her father was an unusually awful and abusive man and he had recently threatened to disinherit Lizzie and leave everything to his wife.

I agree there was reasonable doubt. I’ve always wondered what happened to the servant afterwards and whether she received a windfall from somewhere. Thanks Dr G!

@Rottimail

Жыл бұрын

Brigitte moved West to Anaconda, Montana afterwards. I went there and went to her resting place. She married a man with the last name Sullivan but never had children. She was only ever involved in her husband's side of the family.

A few additions: Lizzie was the only person with access and opportunity to linger unseen for an hour and a half. She was the only person with access who had a significant financial motive, control over half of the money, and her older mother/ sister was highly suggestible, giving up a larger bedroom twice. No one looked at the easily washable metal sad irons, 6# metal irons that Lizzie stated that she was using that day. How much effort would it take to quickly, quietly disable an adult with head wound from a lifted 6# pointed iron? Lizzie would have had to have heard Abby's body fall upstairs, if Lizzie had been innocent. Andrew's top coat and the wall would have blocked most blood. Would a woman with two sad iron double-handed hits to the left side of the head spin and fall or run to crawl under the bed? Knowing how long it took to undress/redress in the period attire, makes me wonder if Lizzie wrapped unused menstrual rags around her forearms or as an apron. These were found later in the basement. We know she burnt a dress that already had "paint" on it. The sick friend note Lizzie said Abby received was never identified. We know, years before, Emma left school early to return to her mother role with Lizzie, and Lizzie may have been influenced to hate Abby and steal from her.

@aslmad1

3 жыл бұрын

The upper room Abby was in would have been warmer and drier allowing the blood to dry faster. The investigator at the time didn’t use modern forensic science to prove the time line, it was a guess

What's another interesting connection is that James Fallon, who wrote The Psychopath Inside, in which he explores the genetic determinants of psychopathy (including his own), is related to Lizzie Borden.

@rishaa682

4 жыл бұрын

i dont understand this sentence

@anonymousv6376

4 жыл бұрын

risha a James Fallon is related to Lizzie Borden and he wrote the psychopath inside which about psychopath behavior genetics

The inheritance money that Lizzy and her sister got back then would be equal to 10 million dollars in today's money.

@nancyayers6355

4 жыл бұрын

Lizzie DID IT!!! She had been the only other person in the house when her stepmother was murdered, AND when someone killed her father! Hey! It was summer, and hot - even hot inside the home - and, some biographies have pointed out, she was having her period that day. Her sister was at a neighbor's house, visiting. She hated her stepmother, and may have hated her father for remarrying after her mother passed away. Plus, she had plenty of time to wash any blood from her body and clothing - or to burn the dress(!) - before calling the police to report the incident. Also, violence was unusual in that era. The only other option would be perhaps an ex-employee of her father's, who carried a grudge because Lizzie's father was notoriously stingy and had a reputation as a cheapskate! It sounds to me that when you put all the factors together, it appears that she WAS the killer - but we'll never know for sure!!

@LaMaestra2102

4 жыл бұрын

Excellent motive!

@rullmourn1142

4 жыл бұрын

@@nancyayers6355 ...I don't think she had much time at all, police said her fathers blood was wet, not enough time to dry. Plus she burned the dress in front of witnesses.. What bugs me is there are so many different accounts by different people as to what happened and when in the timeline.. But ya, we will never know for sure, other than a terrible, dynamic, violent thing happened that day. [Not just superheroes wore capes back then] lol

@majorkade

4 жыл бұрын

@@rullmourn1142 check that. Sister said she burned the dress, according to same Dateline.

@Dulcimertunes

4 жыл бұрын

Yet the dad was so cheap they didn’t have indoor plumbing like their neighbors

I am not an expert but I recall doing research on Lizzie Borden for a presentation years ago and reading biographies about her. I felt she was quite the enigma.

A suggestion has been that "they were in on it". A set up with the Uncle doing it. And back then I see your poisoning point. And why did the Uncle just come for a visit?

@Lydia-vt5uz

3 жыл бұрын

I believe the uncle came to help Andrew Borden with the transfer of the well-loved property to his wife and her family.

22:49 Lizzie Borden’s appearance [irregardless of guilt or innocence] post an horrific double murder: "The reports indicated that her _HAIR_ wasn’t even disheveled!" Me [in response] immediately assessing my *OWN* reflection in a mirror, _4 WHOLE WEEKS_ into social-distancing/COVID-19 pandemic-panic lockdown: *OH DEAR GOD!!!😬NOOO!😳* But still, I _DEFINITELY_ haven’t been suspected of committing a murder... *YET!*

@geslinam9703

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah, well, consider yourself lucky. I have to go to work every day, face the world, with my hair like that.

@sydnidowney3598

2 жыл бұрын

Irregardless is a double negative. The words is REGARDLESS.

I'm really loving these true crime analysis videos lately!

Unboxing videos can get millions of views but Dr. Grande hundreds of thousands, he deserves way more attention!

I absolutely love the wide variety of videos Dr. Todd puts out! Glad I discovered him just a week ago!

Couldn’t she have hired someone to do it? Many female murderers do that. That would explain a lot. She could have been aware and witnessed it all, but avoided the blood spatter, and of course the goal was financial independence from a perceived tyrannical life in a different era where spinsterhood seemed her future. Maybe her dad forbade her from marrying? Maybe she tried to secure the acid for poisoning first and when that failed had a lover or someone kill those she resented the most? I’ve seen “Snapped”, it seems to happen a lot.

@sarahholland2600

3 жыл бұрын

Uncle John coming to stay the day before with no bags or change of clothes is v suspish. He had money problems. Abby was dusting the guest room he was staying in when attacked....

@BackBruck

2 жыл бұрын

Sometimes if you want it done well, you have to do it yourself 😶

@evelyntokamp1011

2 жыл бұрын

@Amira T. - Perceived?

@rucianapollard4057

2 жыл бұрын

Where would she get the money to hire someone?? Her father controlled the family finances.

@cassielong6617

Жыл бұрын

@@rucianapollard4057 she might’ve had a friend give her some money for it..

The "spinster" life was often most chosen by those who were lesbian (not all). One had to marry within one's own social class too. Lots of rules there. I think it is safe to say, she did it. I think it is safe to say, it was done with her sister's understanding and support. I think the maid may very well have known exactly what was happening. .. who said "not my business here" simply because she'd have been worked to death and paid very little by Andrew & Abby. She'd have had to play a low profile since her re-employment elsewhere would have depended on her discretion in this case. People during this time didn't like publicity in any form. When it was about servants or women doubly so. Just having a minor involvement would have been a determent to her being re-employed. Lizzy's involvement in any form guilty or not would have ostracized her and resulted in being a spinster for life...Emma too. They had nothing to lose and everything to gain by these murders. I think there was plenty of guilt to go around.

@poetcomic1

2 жыл бұрын

Later in life, Lizzie had a major infatuation with an actress Nance O'Neil.

@rucianapollard4057

2 жыл бұрын

According to most accounts Bridgette Sullivan left the house the day of the murders and never came back.

@Rottimail

Жыл бұрын

Andrew apparently tly turned away a few suitors because he decided they were after his money. He condemned his daughters to spinsterhood. Brigitte moved to Anaconda, Montana where she married a man with the same last name. I met Bridgitte's husband's niece's sons wife. The niece's son was a Police officer killed in the line of duty. Also, Lucille Ball lived in Anaconda, Montana for a short time when she was a young child. Some of her relatives still live there.

So grateful for your time. Your incredible! So glad I found this channel. Keep up the good work!

Why couldn’t Lizzie have hired someone to do it? That would explain no forced entry. Also, the person could have hid in the house with Lizzie’s help in between the murders.

@jkcliff2956

Жыл бұрын

I've read quite a bit on this case. One theory is that she and Emma conspired to murder the parents. Lizzie was in on it, but didn't actually physically attack them. She let someone else in.

@kevinmalone3210

Жыл бұрын

Where would she get the money to hire someone? She was given an allowance by her father, which wouldn't amount to much. Another thing, the hatchet job on her father and stepmother was the product of a personal rage killing. The murders were over kill, which would point to a person who had alot of resentment and anger against these two. Who would have this kind of anger and resentment? Lizzie Borden.

@paulvolpe9263

Жыл бұрын

She could have payed the person when she got her inheritance.

It would be interesting to know, has anyone gone to the house and tried a recreation of the murders, to see how the sound traveled and how long it would have taken Lizzie to have changed her cloths (getting someone who is familiar with clothing of that period).

@traumajock

3 жыл бұрын

In the movie that Elizabeth Montgomery played Lizzie, she removed all clothing before killing them. I think that's very likely. She probably had her hair covered.

@magnum_cx8805

3 жыл бұрын

@@traumajock You have to remember how long those clothes would take to put on though

@gloriamontgomery6900

2 жыл бұрын

It is possible that she removed her bloody clothing and hid it under another dress hanging in her closet. The police only did a very short, cursory search of her closet.

@gloriamontgomery6900

2 жыл бұрын

Also, the dress she was wearing that day was one of two “wrappers” , a type of casual house dress, that her dressmaker made for her. Apparently she favored the color blue as both dresses were that color Both dresses buttoned up the front so she could have removed it herself. If her underclothing was blood stained after Abbey’s murder she had plenty of time to remove it, change and hide it. However, she had very little time after Andrew’s murder, either to change her clothing and wash herself. There was one small blood spot found on her petticoat. Lizzie referred to this blood spot as a “flea bite“ which was a euphemism for menstrual blood in that era. I’m inclined to think that she did it based on her behavior afterwards. Burning her dress, burning the copy of her father’s will (did he change it in favor of Abby?”.

I look forward to everything you post - even if it’s something I may already be familiar with (true crime addict so I know all about Borden) but I still watch it because I really respect how you always back things with science.

At 5:15 you mention that the police describe Abby as being calm. I think you meant Lizzie was calm. Abby was dead. I guess that is as calm as you can get. But otherwise, I enjoyed your presentation. I was just telling my husband that we need to go stay at the Lizzie Borden B&B. Weirdly enough, he had never heard about the murders and did not know who Lizzie Borden was!

@hester1955

2 жыл бұрын

I noticed that too!

@christiansamaroo

2 жыл бұрын

I notice in a lot of his videos he tend to make simple errors in the case.

@ToniHunterOne

2 жыл бұрын

@@christiansamaroo Maybe he does that to see if we're really listening to the whole presentation. I caught that one and a few minor errors on other of his vids too.

@christiansamaroo

2 жыл бұрын

@@ToniHunterOne I was thinking the same thing. I caught errors in other videos

@guymorris6596

Жыл бұрын

Did anyone do a spiritual cleansing of that house after Lizzie whacked her parents ? There would be bad energy in that house. The court should have smoked her butt. She killed her parents for the cash.

I love the combination of history and true crime so much! In my opinion, the most likely theory is that Lizzie Borden got away with murder, but I also think that Maggy helped her with her testamony. Also, how would Lizzy have been able to put on a dress without help that quick? And why did Maggy not hear the brutal murder of Andrew although she hears anything else all the time. This was a brutal crime, it was for sure anything but silent... I also covered this case and it is so fascinating even after all these years :)

@Cheryltwin2012

2 жыл бұрын

The maid's name was Bridget, not Maggie. Lizzie called her Maggie because that was their previous maid's name and Lizzie thought that since Bridget was beneath her, she need not call her by her correct name.

@josephrohland5604

Жыл бұрын

Good thing the entire story is fictional, simple American folklore.

Hi Dr Grande, Excellent choice in subject! It’s so difficult to judge the case with today’s eyes! A women’s life was SO different in those days, societal constraints on women left them next to no options in what their life was going to be. Women usually married by their late teens, and arraigned marriages were common place. It’s very shocking in those days that a woman didn’t marry, let alone two sisters. That was VERY unusual. I believe that ALONE would’ve made her suspect. As for her behavior and emotional state, women were expected to be seen and not heard. She would’ve been raised to be in control of emotional outbursts. Women in the upper class would’ve been schooled in proper etiquette, and wouldn’t have broke away from that as it wasn’t accepted. The very fact the police were shocked she didn’t “faint” was proof of what people expected from women. If this happened today, I believe she would’ve been convicted. The theory I believe is most plausible, if your stand is she was guilty is this. In cases if child abuse, sexual molestation and incestual

@erust9465

4 жыл бұрын

Oops, hit send lol. To continue with the abuse theory. Had she been victimized by her father with molestation, she EASILY could’ve harbored deep seated hate for him, and if both sisters were in fact sexually abused by Mr. Borden, they both would’ve had hate for him. Being they lived together, it’s not far fetched to think this was the case, Mrs Borden was aware of the abuse and turned a blind eye. Divorce was NOT common. Certainly not in the upper class. Mrs Borden would’ve been better off TO TURN A BLIND EYE! Remarrying at her advanced age probably wouldn’t happen, certainly not with a bad reputation, which a divorce would’ve given her. If this was the case, both sisters would’ve had deep seated hate for both Mr and Mrs Borden. Society was not as it is today. NO ONE publicly accused parents of sexual abuse! Especially the upper class! This theory of sexual abuse is the most plausible. The sisters could’ve planned for months. Even if it was Lizzie alone that was abused, she could’ve planned for months, even years! I find it highly suspect that Mr. Borden DIDN’T marry the sisters off. That wasn’t a good thing for his reputation. And all reports were that although the Bordens were extremely wealthy they WERE NOT accepted or popular with their peers. He was a miser and didn’t live like the rest of their peers. He WAS considered an oddball! As for the evidence and the murders themselves, I think it’s entirely possible she did it. She had plenty of time to dispose of evidence. Unlike those days, we know a women easily possesses the strength to kill. The manner of both deaths was certainly persons and rage driven. It was overkill! And if she harbored hate for years, a surprise attack with a hatchet would’ve been easy. Mr Borden was napping. Not hard to kill then. Mrs Borden maybe had her back turned, how could she defeat sneak attack with a hatchet! Investigators today have said Lizzie may NOT have been covered in blood, and there’s been experiments done by blood spatter specialists proving this. I believe this theory answers all of the questions surrounding this case. By virtue of the times this wasn’t even thought of let alone brought up! Thanks Dr Grande, this was an excellent choice and your thoughts on Lizzie are very interesting! Best Wishes to you and yours!

@Tawroset

3 жыл бұрын

@@erust9465 I totally agree. Those gruesome pics show that Andrew's face was essentially obliterated. A LOT of rage.

@8rr725

3 жыл бұрын

I've never believed for sure that he molested her. I'd need more evidence.

@barbaraedgley2634

10 ай бұрын

Dr put her on morphine immediately after crime discovered as he & neighbor lady described her as distraught. At trial she DID faint. My mom & I took tranquilizers to get us thru my dad's funeral. We may have appeared calm & unemotional. My bestie was on tranquilizers after her young hubby killed. People grumbled she didnt cry at funeral -- what did they know? 50 years later still tending his grave & involved with his family. I was in shock when my husband died in front of me from massive heart attack. I didnt swoon or weep uncontrollably. Shock. I am not quick or eager to judge Lizzie's guilt based on her behavior after the loss of both parents.

Years ago, I read about this murder, that Lizzy's sister did it. Though she had left town before the murder occurred, her carriage was spotted outside the house at the time of the murder, and there is even a photo of it parked briefly on the street. When she had packed to leave, she took with her a full length rain slicker, which she most certainly would not have needed at that time of year. When she was an old woman, she installed a panel beside her bed where she could instantly turn on every light in the house, because she said that eventually the public would find out about her and come to get her. Near that panel, she kept a hatchet. The rain slicker she had worn during the murders was never found. Sorry I can't remember the name of the book. Reading about that light panel and the nearby hatchet chilled me to the bone.

@LindaC616

4 жыл бұрын

Photos were still so rare at the time, I can't believe anyone would just have a random photo of a carriage in the street. Also, Emma didn't have one of her own, she likely would have hired someone. Not saying she didn't do it, just that I don't believe the bit about the photo

@lifeissweet9826

4 жыл бұрын

I have that book. I think it might be "Emma Did It" or one of the other books indicating that Emma who hated her step mother more than Lizzy did, was the murderer. But Lizzy knew it was going to happen. Emma went out of town yes, but came back to town secretly with her axe and slicker as was planned and she either surprised Lizzie that day, or Lizzie could have been in on it. This would explain WHY the murderer stayed in the house upstairs for over an hour waiting for the father to come home. and why Lizzie was clean. Emma wore the slicker and took the axe or hatchet with her when she left. It certainly answers all the questions about how Lizzie was not the least bit disheveled. In those days, people were accustomed to seeing buggies and horses parked wherever and didn't think anything of it. like cars today being parked in front of houses briefly. There is another book that says the half brother who was never acknowledged by Andrew had real rage against Abby and Andrew and wanted money. Andrew i believe was redoing his will and the son would be cut out. Also the Uncle knew about this family soap opera and believed that the son came in thru the back fence, committed the murders and Lizzie was a witness to it. There is more that happened that day between the Uncle and Lizzie indicating a plot perhaps to get rid of Andrew and the half brother was paid to do it. What a soap opera. However, the idea of the half brother is awfully full of holes and I vote Emma.

@kayp.7757

4 жыл бұрын

I read that book, too. I don't remember the name of it.

@oldbroad673

3 жыл бұрын

It’s the book Lizzie by Frank Spiering. I believe that a lot of this book has subsequently been debunked.

@humaneleaguelancPA

2 жыл бұрын

Wow, another interesting twist!

“Capes” meant something different back then. What we know today as wraps and women’s coats were known as “capes” at the time.

@derstoffausdemderjoghurtis

3 жыл бұрын

Well its still very different from what today is called a womens coat.

I love how analytical and objective your videos are. This video was great and turned me from a normal fan into a big fan

God, this case has been analyzed 1000’s of times for a very long time! It’s crazy that people still talk about it!

@jflan92

Жыл бұрын

It's because there was lack of hard evidence which could have pointed out to Lizzie's part in the murders. Lizzie's appearance after the violent events was inconsistent to what one would expect the state of her if she was supposed to have bludgeoned her stepmother & father - no signs of blood on her face, hair & dress. Even her hairstyle wasn't in a disarray either and the very short timeline between Andrew Borden's arrival back to the house & his subsequent bloody death which meant Lizzie wouldn't have had the chance to clean herself up so quickly before shouting for Bridget to come downstairs after the discovery of her father's lifeless body.

You did a great job considering this is a complex case. Those of us who have researched the case for years can bring up all sorts of things. A lot of what is said and believed has been proven false or unsubstantiated. Factors that point toward guilt are the small size of the house, limited entry for an outsider, an intruder remaining in the house perhaps for an hour or more. A cogent theory for guilt is that Lizzie became enraged with her stepmother and struck out. Not wanting to lose her father's love--she did love her father--she killed him too because she couldn't explain away Mrs. Borden dead upstairs. On the other hand IMO there are many factors that support her innocence. Perhaps odd behaviour was related to survivor's guilt? Lizzie called to Bridget upstairs within minutes of Mr. Borden being killed. The murder weapon was never found. Modern forensics has proved the "headless hatchet" has no human blood on it and that it could not have been washed away. There is a chunk of wooden handle still attached. It is possible the murder weapon could have been hidden irrevocably by Lizzie somewhere in the house so this does not establish guilt or innocence. Investigation in 1892 did indicate the hatchet used was new because of very small flakes of gilt paint in the wounds of Mrs. Borden. The Borden home was in the business district so it is possible someone had purchased a new hatchet prior to entering the home. Much has been made of supposedly Lizzie making sure all the doors were locked. False! The side, screen door was unlocked. Lizzie and Bridget had a short conversation about this door. Bridget said it was OK to lock the door as she could get window washing water in the barn. Whatever happened, Bridget was able to let herself into the house when it was time to wash the inside windows so I assume it was left unlocked and anyone could have entered. If a killer planned to target the Bordens, he could reasonably assume Lizzie and her sister were gone away. Lizzie had just returned because of an activity at her church. Thursday was the day the maid--and other maids on the street--washed windows. It was also a half day out for Bridget Sullivan in the afternoon. My theory is that Lizzie was in the "cellar", the basement, perhaps using the WC there as well as collecting her laundry which had been done the days before the fatal day. I think she went upstairs with her laundry as she said and the killer got stuck in the guest bedroom after killing Mrs. Borden. Lizzie came downstairs when her father returned home. I think Lizzie did go outside but her story of what she did exactly is convoluted. I think the killer tried to exit, maybe caused the napping Mr. Borden to stir or perhaps intended all along to kill him. The killer left and Lizzie reentered. As noted there was no sign of blood on her dress, in her hair, on her hands, etc. Her hair was said to be in perfect order. In those days hairpins were not as secure and tight as they are today. I would think axe murder would derange an 1890's hair style. Again, there was not time enough between Mr. Borden's murder and Lizzie summoning Bridget, for Lizzie to do much toward checking her appearance and hiding any evidence. Lizzie's sister Emma was present in the kitchen when Alice Russell saw Lizzie burning the dress. Either this was an innocent activity or Emma was part of a cover-up. At trial Emma said she had told her sister to get rid of that dress which was stained and had not worn well. Much later, after the sisters were no longer living together (1906?), Emma was quoted as saying she could not imagine her sister guilty of murder because Lizzie was, "so fond of dumb animals." (Lizzie left a large bequest to the Fall River animal rescue and she doted on her dogs.) A factor in support of her innocence, IMO, is that she initially said her father had been "cut" with something like a razor. She never slipped and said anything like hacked, whacked, chopped, etc. She seemed to believe her father had been somehow cut severely. Inheritance is not a great motive. With both Bordens dead and no wills, Emma as the oldest child, inherited all. She chose to share with her sister but she did not have to. Obviously I can say a great deal more. I had an interesting discussion with an unknown person on the internet who claimed to have seen some documents pertaining to the case. He encouraged me to believe Lizzie innocent. Anyone can say anything on the internet so I simply replied with my theories and based on this other person's replies, I believe he did have information that will never be made public. Of course I have no idea who was the killer. A small clue was given but I am not sure how to apply it. I do however believe Lizzie was innocent.

@Tawroset

3 жыл бұрын

I would humbly suggest that Andrew was indeed "somehow cut severely"!

@annalisette5897

3 жыл бұрын

@@Tawroset You are absolutely right. My point was, if Lizzie did it with a hatchet or something similar, would she have used words about cutting? Wouldn't she slip once in awhile and say "battered", "bludgeoned", "hacked", etc.? I personally do not believe she committed murder. A first impression might well be that Andrew's face had been cut when in fact it had been hacked, chopped, beaten, etc. I look at Lizzie's choice of words about 'sharp instrument' and cutting as a consciousness of innocence.

@Tawroset

3 жыл бұрын

@@annalisette5897 Well, you're not alone in that opinion--after all the jury agreed with you lol! I personally feel she probably did it--but for sure it'll be an eternal mystery. *sigh*

As far as Lizzie showing no emotion, we need to remember that (despite what we see in movies) people of high social status were taught not to show emotion. That showing emotion, hysterics, sobbing, etc. was for the "lower" classes. Lizzie was keeping a "stiff upper lip" just as she had been taught.

I just started today and I am hooked! I have listened to you on the way to work and on the way back and I am still here (:

This is one of the most interesting analyses I have seen on Lizzie Borden, and although I am not particularly able to judge whether or not this is a valid analysis, it seems like it to me. You are so interesting to listen to, and I thoroughly enjoy your videos. Just about to subscribe!

She lied about where Abbey went...hmmm. Too bad DNA tools and blood/fluid sensing lights weren't available yet.

@parler8698

4 жыл бұрын

Right!

@LindaC616

4 жыл бұрын

Fun fact: this is one of the 1st crime scenes in America where photographs were used as evidence. The photographs are (or copies of them are) displayed in the parlor, you can see them when you do the tour

@julienielsen3746

4 жыл бұрын

I saw a documentary on Lizzie Borden once where they used luminol on the walls in the basement, and found blood stains that had seeped down from where the sofa was where Andrew was murdered. Also found some other blood stains in the basement. Wish I could remember the name of the program.

@kathygoodman6159

4 жыл бұрын

@@julienielsen3746 I saw that too and can't remember who did it.

@TPOrchestra

3 жыл бұрын

​@@julienielsen3746 Julie, if I'm not mistaken, the program you're referring to is "Lizzie Borden Had an Axe" on the Discovery Channel in 2004. Tom Lange, one of the O.J. Simpson case detectives, was one of the hosts . I remember the luminol stains in the basement were creepy as hell. What's REALLY scary is how time flies, I can't believe it was 16 years ago when it aired.

Hi, Dr. Grande! I am a Fall River native, and it's a small enough city for people to find things out. We all went "uptown" to the same stores, same movie theaters, banks, and city hall ,churches, and post office, all was right there in the vicinity of the Borden financial building. Lizzie's family lived literally "around the corner" from every place she frequented for business OR for social purposes. I point this out because anyone with "business" uptown would come into the same contact with the shopkeepers and workers that Lizzie would. Word got around, in other words. Most everyone went to church, too. My question is, if the family was so very wealthy, why weren't men literally chasing after those girls to marry them? And if her father was worth that much money, why didn't the girls get more than what they did? Their only social affairs that Andrew would allow them was church activities? She was deprived of all the social affairs of her rich peers, which were many. Fall River was a boom town during the industrial revolution due to textile mills. We were a world leader. Andrew Borden was from a family of businessmen and mill owners. Though he had to make his own fortune he was more than a little jealous of his other Borden relations. His second marriage was to a lady named Abby Durfee Gray. The Durfees were a VERY rich and powerful family in Fall River's textile business and banks, although Abby herself did not appear to be a rich one. He may have married Abby for the name itself, for prestige? Probably. But, like you said, he was a miserly skin flint. The daughters were totally exasperated with him because they has to live at the "Bottom of the Hill". Fall River is, literally, a hill. The city was built at the base of the hill. The immigrants working in the mills lived at the bottom of the hill. The wealthy lived "at the top of the hill", hence Lizzie's frustration. The girls wanted their own home on the hill somewhere, but Andrew bought someone in step mom's family a HOUSE! WELL! That was TOTALLY unacceptable since they lived without most all of the then modern conveniences of their day. Maybe both of them were holding out as long as they could putting up with things at home, but something happened to make them SNAP. (You can tell that I spent ALOT of time in the Historical Society!😉) BOTTOM LINE: My grandmother told us that as a child she heard a lot of grown ups discuss this lady. Verdict: consensus was: GUILTY! Personally, I think that she WAS responsible for the crime, but she paid someone else to kill her parents and she, her sister, AND the maid were all involved in this plan.

@caroliner2029

3 жыл бұрын

Very interesting. I think it was Sharon Osbourne's maternal ancestors that emigrated to Fall River for a time, as it was advertised as being a boom town for citizens of Great Britain who lived in poverty and overcrowded conditions. In her episode of 'Who Do You Think You Are?' I recollect that when they got there, the working conditions in the mills weren't great, and they were still relegated to slum-like accommodation. They were stuck there until they made some money to go elsewhere.

I am so impressed with how fair you always are... it amazes me! Love your videos!

I’d be fascinated to hear your thoughts on Jack the Ripper, Dr. Grande! Obviously it’s hard to do a full analysis given the perpetrator wasn’t caught, but even so, I’d be very interested to hear if you have any opinions on the case.

@MissDarleneRae

4 жыл бұрын

They solved the case last year. There was no hype about it because of who it turned out to be. They belong to a group that is not allowed to be criticized.

@breedlejuice8691

4 жыл бұрын

MissDarleneRae I mean, they can’t be 100% sure but the guy prolly did it. I feel like it was a meme? I remember seeing it. People were saying, “finally, we can get that guy behind bars.”

@BouncyBrown

4 жыл бұрын

@@breedlejuice8691 They did forensic/DNA testing so they're pretty sure. The guy (Aaron Kosminski, a 23-year-old Polish barber) was the prime suspect at the time so no big shocking twist.

@8rr725

3 жыл бұрын

I saw a recent doc about Jack The Ripper and they mentioned a whole new suspect. L

You did a really great job on this. Another aspect that would be interesting for psychological investigation is the society of Lizzie Borden's Fall River, 1890's. If the town had not decided to judge her guilty after the fact, we might not know much about her or the case today. There were a lot of social reasons why public opinion rejected Lizzie Borden. Part of it was because decent people didn't end up mixed up in a mess like a double axe murder, guilty or not.

I've read that at times her composure at the trial was less than stoic - she cried so hard at one point she vomited.

@Cissy2cute

3 жыл бұрын

She fainted when they brought the skulls into court.

@chriscase1392

2 жыл бұрын

@@Cissy2cute Wow. They just don't do trials that way anymore. Or maybe they do...

@barbaraedgley2634

10 ай бұрын

And fainted when seeing skulls of her parents. She proclaimed, " i am innocent," years later she said she qould have given up all her fortune if she could have been proven innocent-- after a lifetime of being accused, blamed, ostracised, harrassed. If she turned to theater folks to befriend her, it could be because they were outsiders, not townsfolk, not around during the time of the crime & trial, because theater folk were less judgmental, not horrified by scandal, the only friends available

I’ve heard the story ( and the poem) all my life. My grandmother lived in the area, and would have been a small child when the murders happened. Reading through some of the comments I learned there was a bastard half brother. Well now, that certainly complicates things. Lizzie had mentioned the house had been robbed, her father threatened in a letter. That sounds like something an illegitimate, ignored, likely destitute offspring might do. Rage for the position his wealthy father had left him in. He was the family secret.

@Cheryltwin2012

2 жыл бұрын

Except the story about a half-brother was debunked years ago.

@jacquigriffin5973

Жыл бұрын

@@Cheryltwin2012 And there was no evidence that such a person received any of the inheritance or came into any money. Lizzie definitely lived high off the hog with her share, however. Also, what would be his motive for killing Abbey right then, knowing his father was not at home. His father had a well known business day routine.They lived on a busy street on a workday morning and no one saw anything or anyone come to or leave the house.