This is sad man, I can understand them not wanting to maintain the motors etc. But disposing the entire train is a waste. This train is a piece of history that ought to be preserved.

@robbiefstrains9083

2 жыл бұрын

Yep, it is a shame - the only unrefurbed train from that era - bit of a time capsule really.

@james123212

2 жыл бұрын

unfortunate fact is that as the stock gets older spare parts are harder to acquire and there is little benefit of maintaining a train which gets used little more than a handful of times a year especially when the Bakerloo line stock is in far greater need of spare parts and the aldwych branch that this train is used on is planned to be severed with the Holborn station upgrade

@robbiefstrains9083

2 жыл бұрын

@@james123212 absolutely right. It was in the way where it was so it had to move and TfL hasn’t the funds to overhaul a unit which gets used a few times a year, as you say. At least some good can come of it’s disposal - components can be recovered for the rest of the fleet. All things must pass..

@CitytransportInfoplus

2 жыл бұрын

Given that the train is not going to be retained in working order it would still be great if one of the DMs could be retained in non-working order, so that people can see the inside in original format - complete with guards panel

@robbiefstrains9083

2 жыл бұрын

@@CitytransportInfoplus I seem to remember there is a ‘72 mk1 DM in the Museum Depot. Different moquette to the one seen in the video, but a good example.

That distinct whine from the motors or generator while standing then the sparks of electricity arching while changing points. ❤️ The tube! Memories of home

@Great_WesternTVFan

2 жыл бұрын

It's the engine, it sounds on all other old trains

@trickifichd2939

2 жыл бұрын

What a weirdo

@Great_WesternTVFan

2 жыл бұрын

@@trickifichd2939 for an opinion? lol

@rickybaillie4222

2 жыл бұрын

@@trickifichd2939 if this makes him happy how on earth is that weird?

@NextSound170

2 жыл бұрын

@@rickybaillie4222 Internet Urchin, don’t worry about them. Probably 12 and bad behaved

The trains from the 80s and early 90s had so much character. When I was very little I was obsessed with the Underground, mainly because of the trains and how different they all were. The windows on the cabs looked like faces, giving each stock a distinct feel. I always preferred the unpainted variants, with the exception of the ones which had a little bit of red on the cab or the door (e.g. D stock, or 1973 stock). I remember, a few years ago, deciding to ride the Metropolitan line just because I missed riding on the A-stock, and being disappointed when I realised they'd all been replaced with the new trains. Soon the Piccadilly Line will get new trains and there'll be no trace of the ones I loved as a kid.

@oludotunjohnshowemimo434

2 жыл бұрын

The 7 car crew operated version of the ex Victoria line 1967 stock which operated on the Northern line alongside the 1959 stock until they were withdrawn first in late 1990. They were not reliable in performance and smaller batch, hence why they were withdrawn first. Ex Central line 1962 stock still in good operational shape were transferred to the Northern line to get rid of the 1972mk1 stock. Most mk1s were scrapped after having their components taken off to keep the other 72s on the Bakerloo line running, a few cars were adapted and reconfigured into the 1967 stock but placed in the middle as they did not have automatic driving. Others were redeployed to the Bakerloo line, converted to driver only operation and refurbished where they are combined as half units with the mk2s as one train and a few complete mk1 trains. This one has now been scrapped but its components have been stripped as spare parts to keep the other 72s running on the Bakerloo line. Makes sense because Tfl couldn't afford to keep it running anymore because it hadn't been out and about much due to coronavirus and TfL's finances taking a heavy knockdown because of COVID. Better to redirect the money to finance important upgrade projects.

@Gary0557

2 жыл бұрын

I grew up in the 60's with the Central Line 1962 stock at Woodford. As you say, the front of some trains looked like a smiley face, the silver 1962 stock was a classic example.

1:34 I love the zoom in of the discarded Big Mac Meal wrapper, accompanied by a valedictory toot

@1paultay

2 ай бұрын

I will always remember receiving "Tube Trains Under London" by J Graeme Bruce at Christmas 1980...I was 4 and 3 quarters...John Lennon had just been shot, and my dad's dad had just died...amidst all the emotional turmoil, the sheer catharsis of that blue book, the grainy pics of then nearly-new 1972 and 1973 silverfishes and the excitement of going up to town at the weekend from sleepy Stoneleigh..(ctd. page 94)

sad to hear this whole set of un-refurbished 72ts will be gone. The unpainted original livery is so classic.

@Gary0557

2 жыл бұрын

These trains were at their best when silver.

@pmk2000

Жыл бұрын

@@Gary0557 definitely

@oludotunjohnshowemimo434

6 ай бұрын

It has since had its components recovered and then finally scrapped

I'm a big fan of the Bakerloo stock. I've always found them attractive and comfy on the inside, particularly after refurbishment. We should still have them for a few years as all things Bakerloo get delayed. They've had a good life though, far better than the 1983 stock, some of which were smothered in their crib at the ripe old age of 10. A true waste.

@oludotunjohnshowemimo434

8 ай бұрын

This is a former Northern line 1972mk1 four car unit with the guard panels still there and operational hence why a guard was required. It has had its components removed and scrapped now

I used to live in Dagenham with nothing behind the house until you got past the Leys but on a night you could see the flashes from Dagenham East Station despite it being more than a mile away

Memories of commuting in the 1970’s. Thank you for sharing. 👏👏👍😀

@Marvin-dg8vj

2 жыл бұрын

Memories of commuting in the 1980s and nearly passing out with the heat in summer.

Great video. ☺

I miss seeing these. Those ghost trains coming in to the station when I was a kid...I'm only 33 but it feels like yesterday!

Train: unpainted Graffiti artists: fine, I'll do it myself

@buizelmeme6288

2 жыл бұрын

😂

@christopheryanoski6899

2 жыл бұрын

🤣🤣🤣

@limeyosu2000

2 жыл бұрын

😜😜

@JackTheOfficeWorker

Жыл бұрын

😂

These were buggers to keep graffitti clean.

I thought this mk1 train would do a mini rail tour on the Northern line but since the Northern line upgraded to automatic train operation, it would have been impossible to do as it is no longer compatible to do it during the day and with the 1996 stock running at the same time

I drove the Mk1 72s on the Northern in 1975 and also the 38s

@Gary0557

2 жыл бұрын

I think these are the oldest stock still in use, on the Bakerloo line. Though no guards.

@oludotunjohnshowemimo434

Күн бұрын

@@Gary0557 a few of the these former Northern line mk1 72s are on the Bakerloo, now converted to driver only operation and refurbished. The Mk1 cars have the black rubber seals around the door windows.

Chances are it is now at the LT Museum Depot (Ealing Common - Acton Town end) (??) . I did actually run a Mk1 and Mk2 72t/s (pre OPO days) when I was at Golders Green, We were so short of stock that these made up the only "spare" serviceable units we had - There was no reason why it couldn't be done and if memory serves the timetable train I put it on was a one trip up and down to Morden before stabling back at GG.! (With fingers crossed that it didn't get "reformed" for some reason onto another running number.) I also seem to recall I had "tacit" permission from the "governors" and I think it went off without a hitch. (Pity I didn't have a camera (no Smartphones in those days!) BUT and order came out pretty quickly after that it was not an acceptable thing to do so as far as I can recall it never happened again to an actual "service" train. (I think a few test trains were made up like it just for quick runs up and down to Edgware). Happy days.!

@richardcoughlan9981

2 жыл бұрын

It's a Ruislip

@oludotunjohnshowemimo434

8 ай бұрын

It's components have been stripped off completely as spare parts for the 72s left on the Bakerloo line. It is a bare bodyshell skeleton now. Probably no longer there and finally removed for scrap.

ooo i love the old destination blind

I wish TFL would have a tradition of keep one unit of the previous generation of each line in operation. Upgrading and installing everything that may be necessary in the bogies, drivers cab, signalling, computers etc, but refresh them with the original moquettes, flooring etc. Having one unpainted D83, C67, A60, 1969/72, 1959 on the central. How cool would that be. The original jubilee line maaaan

@legend_darkstar

2 жыл бұрын

you know how expensive that would be, right? You'd have to train drivers for a completely different type of stock for one carriage so enthusiasts are happy. You'd have to pay for maintenance of trains that are getting increasingly prone to defects... I'm afraid the railways aren't made for enthusiasts, they're made to transport people around the country and the world.

@rabd9881

2 жыл бұрын

@@legend_darkstar facts

@v31.48

Жыл бұрын

@@legend_darkstar True. It’s made to transfer people from A to B. Not to geek / play around with tiring old trains which are prone to breaking down and causing major disruption. It’s public transport. Not some museum

@legend_darkstar

Жыл бұрын

@@v31.48 I mean I love trains and especially the older ones but man you gotta think logically

@v31.48

Жыл бұрын

@@legend_darkstar yes i understand that, the old ones are not suitable anymore. I bet that keeping them maintained just costs too much. And power consumption is also a major factor, I think TFL got hit pretty hard during the pandemic

Robbie, thanks for message about this film, in addition to watching it myself I've tweeted a link to this historic film. Simon

@robbiefstrains9083

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you Simon. Your channel has been a fantastic resource to me over the years - please keep them coming! 😃

Someone really needs to save this piece of history I mean it looks like a piece of a museum not from the scrapyard

@damienmanu117

2 жыл бұрын

Real talk 😥

@robbiefstrains9083

2 жыл бұрын

At least there is one driving motor coach of this type of unit preserved in the Depot Museum.

@Je_Existe

2 жыл бұрын

Still it’s a real shame this was the only Unrefurbished 1972 stock MK1 left that even could drive

@sjoerd5629

2 жыл бұрын

@@robbiefstrains9083 If you ever want to drive as a museum excursion (which is far more interesting then just a static display; it really lets visitors experience the train rather then just looking at it)..... you need at least two to form a train with driving positions at both ends.

Lovely recording here. :)

@robbiefstrains9083

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you. 🙂

I actually do not really know how to feel about this, I've actually been watching out for this one hoping somebody in time would have took this for such justifiable reasons, there will be literally nothing else like it left 😥, is it too late? I really actually hope not 🥺

I wish i was on. Didnt know this even happened

Its a real shame that tfl didn't at least keep it as a heritage train like the 38 stock. It would have been great fun to travel on given how much of a time capsule the interior is...

Last of the ol' turbies. Brings back fond memories ridin' the rickety ol' turbies!

I like that

I did hear that this mk1 ex Northern Aldwych unit was getting the chop. End of an era. At least it's parts will be used to keep the other few 72mk1s and mk2s on the Bakerloo line running. With older stock, parts become increasingly difficult to obtain, operational and maintaince costs become increasingly expensive. TfL's finances took significant damage from the coronavirus epidemic and is not able to keep it well maintained anymore. Were some 1967 ex Victoria line tube stock parts retained as well before they were scrapped to help keep the Bakerloo 72s running as well? The guard control panels still working hence a guard was needed to be present. It looks exactly the way it did when it served on the Northern line.

@robbiefstrains9083

2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely. Not sure if ‘67 stock parts were specifically retained for the remaining 72s,. Maybe other readers in the know can confirm?

@jonah6404

2 жыл бұрын

@@robbiefstrains9083 Not all the 67s were scrapped

@oludotunjohnshowemimo434

Жыл бұрын

@@robbiefstrains9083 I have seen Mk1 trains with both mk1 and mk2 doors to replace defective doors. Smart and wise move to recover components from redundant 72mk1 stock

Hey is the old tubes are gone? And the old Piccadilly line?

1972 Tube Stock

Well the worker on the platform obviously didn't give a crap about others filming something! ...This brings back memories for me, though. Going on school day trips to London in the late 80s/early 90s we would arrive at Marylebone station and head straight to the Bakerloo line.

Nice video! Will Aldwych get another stand by train for filming?

@robbiefstrains9083

2 жыл бұрын

From the point of view of leaving a train down there long term, I’d say that was very unlikely. However, in the unlikely event a train is needed on the Aldwych branch for training or filming work, a train can currently still go down there - as far as I’m aware. For example, a three car ‘73 stock unit could in theory still head to Aldwych as long as the track is still in good order. This is also probably unlikely as this would effectively remove a six car train from service and I’m not sure how critical train availability is on the Piccadilly line. As previously mentioned, the branch is likely to be effectively severed from the rest of the network if and when Holborn station upgrade works start. This would make a passenger circulating area in the space where the track is in platform 5 (the Aldwych platform) at Holborn. I believe this is one of the reasons why the train in this film had to be moved out of the way.

Wasn’t this train kept around and watch for a long time?

Now this unit has been removed, does this mean there will be no more trains entering the Aldwych branch for training/filming etc?

@robbiefstrains9083

2 жыл бұрын

As things stand at the moment, the branch is still connected to the network (as far as I am aware), so if the need should arise, a train could physically still go down there. If and when the Holborn station capacity upgrade gets going, the track area will be filled in in the platform 5 area to create a passenger circulating area, which will effectively cut off the branch.

R.I.P. 1970s train 😭🚃

its disgusting how so much potential heritage stock gets thrown on the scrapheap just because there's no room for it anymore So whats gonna happen on the Aldwych branch now - just a line with no train?

@bfapple

2 жыл бұрын

Please explain how it is “disgusting”. I don’t see anybody queuing up to save the 72TS.

@fetchstixRHD

2 жыл бұрын

@@bfapple: Personally I don't see it as a great loss, considering there are plenty of 72ts trains still available which can get preserved later (I also believe there's some of the similar 67ts that have been kept? At least one is a restaurant)

@bfapple

2 жыл бұрын

@@fetchstixRHD Exactly. And not forgetting that the Piccadilly’s own 73TS will be phased out in the coming years.

@robbiefstrains9083

2 жыл бұрын

For the time being, the Aldwych branch remains connected to the eastbound Piccadilly line at Holborn as it always has but part of the reason for getting the train off the branch is to allow for the Holborn station upgrade to happen. Part of this project involves filling in the track bed of platform 5 (the Aldwych shuttle platform) to create a passenger circulating area. This would effectively sever Aldwych from the network altogether.

Apparently American tourists from Philadelphia and NYC put graffiti on that Tube train.

How genuinely sad that the tube as I remember as a child is finally going to be lost probably to booths which I had the money to save some of our history

I think it is quite a pity to see the old trains (a,d,c) stock beeing cut up for scrap. These trains were build to last a lifetime. I get, that the new S stock trains (which I really like aswell) are more spacious, but I fear, that they will not last as long as the older trains.

@caramelldansen2204

2 жыл бұрын

If the trains do their job and last long, how will the train manufacturers be able to extract more profit? Manufactured obsolescence and low running life for products is endemic to capitalism.

@peteschneider2241

5 ай бұрын

The 1995 stock may last until 2045

So that last unbranded 1972 stock has been dxrapped sadly and won't ben making that noise when it waits on the platform and it won't be at aldwych aswell

Are there ex Victoria line 1967 stock on the Bakerloo but in the middle as they were automatically operated or just few ex Northern line 1972mk1 stock and 1972mk2 stock?

@robbiefstrains9083

Жыл бұрын

I don’t think there are, but happy to be corrected on this one by any who know better. There were some 72s that went in the middle of 67 trains. I think some of those then supplemented the trains on the Bakerloo.

@oludotunjohnshowemimo434

6 ай бұрын

Ok

Does the guard control panels still work but the driver can also open the doors

@robbiefstrains9083

2 жыл бұрын

The guard panel does work. As this train was never refurbished and therefore never converted to OPO (One Person Operation), the presence of a guard was required at one of the guard’s panels. As far as I am aware, there are no guard’s controls in the driver’s cab. On stock such as unrefurbished ‘73 and ‘O’ stock, the guard’s position WAS in the rear cab, so there were controls for the doors in those cabs and no position in the passenger saloon area.

@oludotunjohnshowemimo434

2 жыл бұрын

@@robbiefstrains9083so this ex Northern line 1972mk1 train didn't get the conversion work to driver only operation and refurbished and joined the Bakerloo line with the other few mk1s, hence why the guard control panels still working. They were ordered in a hurry to help out the 59s to run all services on the Northern line as there were not enough trains. No time to create a new design and so it copied its first cousin, the 1967 stock in design but with crew operation instead of automatic driving, hence the guard control panels.

Presumably this hadn't been in passenger service for a good few years, right?

@robbiefstrains9083

2 жыл бұрын

That’s right - I believe these last ran in passenger service about 1999, but I’ll check that.

@davidbull7210

2 жыл бұрын

@@robbiefstrains9083 From the Wikipedia article, I'm assuming this is 3229 which had been based in Aldwych.

@robbiefstrains9083

2 жыл бұрын

@@davidbull7210 that’s right.

@oludotunjohnshowemimo434

5 ай бұрын

It got withdrawn from the Northern line in the late 1990s

Watch the lights blink

2:10 Wow so recent.

It should say part painted

Have they all gone nw or is there still some old stock around

@robbiefstrains9083

2 жыл бұрын

The 72 mk2s are soldiering on up and down the Bakerloo- some of the mk1s joined them there and are still running but most have gone.

correct me if im wrong but i thought they all got the new livery like all the trains on every line so this looks... weird

@robbiefstrains9083

Жыл бұрын

The mk2s on the Bakerloo were refurbished in the early 1990s but these mk1s didn’t get refurbed at all so didn’t get the corporate livery. It was deemed that the mk2s would get refurbished but the mk1s (and 1959ts) would get replaced by the 1995 stock. (There is always an exception: two trains of mk1 stock were converted to run with the mk2s on the Bakerloo and so therefore, they carry the corporate livery.)

I was born in July 1974 so the L.U livery I grew up with is the unpainted aluminium livery, and the one I loved along with the L.T Train Red; absolutely hate the red white and blue corporate livery, the least they should have done is employ LT Bus Red instead of that muted lighter shade of red as part of the corporate livery. Secondly, I am utterly shocked and disappointed that only 2 L.U trains have survived into preservation, the Q Stock, and the 1938 TS, these 2 are hardly representative of L.U’s 160 years history, it’s shocking that a R.49 Stock unit wasn’t preserved as it was the best in car body design.

I wanted to know why don’t they dig a tunnel and do an extension for the main line Train so they extend the unused abandoned underground stations. Why couldn’t they use the part D78 Stock train doors on the sides and also restructure the front face of the A60 and A62 stock and remix and make them all together and also redesign them overhead line and also make them into 5 cars per unit and also having 2 Disabled Toilets on those 5 cars per unit A60 and A62 stock trains and also convert the A60 and A62 stock trains into a Scania N112, Volvo TD102KF, Volvo B10M, Gardner 6LXC and Gardner 8LXB Diesel Engines and also put the Loud 7-Speed Voith Gearboxes in the A60 and A62 stock and also modernise the A60 and A62 stock and make it into a 11 car per unit so it could have less doors, more tables, computers and mobile phone chargers. A Stock Trains and also having 8 Disabled Toilets on those A stock trains. why couldn’t we refurbish and modernise the waterloo and city line Triple-Track train tunnel and make it more bigger and extend it to bank station, making it into a Triple-Track Railway Line so those 4 European countries such as Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden to convert the waterloo and city line Triple-Track Train tunnel into an High Speed train. The Third Euro tunnel Triple-Track Train line to make it 8 times better for passengers so they could go from A to B. then put the modernised 11 car per unit A Stock and put them on a bigger modernised waterloo and city line Triple-Track train tunnel so it could go to bank station to those 4 European countries such as Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden. The modernised refurbish 11 cars per unit A stock could be a High Speed The Third Triple-Track Euro Tunnel Train So it is promising and 37 times a lot more possible to do this kind of project that is OK for London Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden. oh by the way, could they also tunnel the Triple-Track Railway Line so it will stop from Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire and Essex so that the Passengers will go to Germany, Italy, Poland and Sweden and also extend the Triple-Track Railway Line from Bank to Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire and Essex Stations so that more people from there could go to Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden Easily. Why couldn't they extend the Piccadilly line and also build a brand-new underground train stations so it could go even further right up to Clapton, Wood Street and also make another brand new tunnel train stations in Chingford and could they extend the DLR. All of the classes 150, 155, 154, 117, 114, 105, 106, will be replaced by all of the Scania N112, Volvo TD102KF, Volvo B10M, Gardner 6LXC and Gardner 8LXB Diesel five carriages to disabled toilets are air conditioning trains including Highams Park for extend doing roots which is the Piccadilly line and the DLR trains. Could you also convert all of the 1973 stock trains into an air-conditioned maximum speed 78 km/hours (48 MPH) re-refurbished and make it into a 8 cars per unit if that will be alright, and also extend all of the Piccadilly train stations to make more space for all of the extended 8 car per unit 1973 stock air condition trains and can you also build another Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive Companies and they can order Every 17 Octagon and Hexagon shape LNER diagram and unique small no.11 Boilers from those Countries such as Greece, Italy, Poland, and Sweden, can they make Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive speeds by up to 117MPH so you can try and test it on the Original Mainline so it will be much more safer for the Passengers to enjoy the 117MPH speed Limit only for HS2 and Channel Tunnel mainline services, if they needed 16 Carriages Per units can they use those class 55’s, class 44’s and class 43HST Diesel Locomotive’s right at the Back of those 16 Carriages Per Units so they can take over at the Back to let those Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive’s have a rest for those interesting Journeys Please!!, oh can you make all of those Coal Boxes’s 16 Tonnes for all of the 117MPH Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive’s so the Companies will Understand us PASSENGER’S!! so Please make sure that the Builders can do as they are Told!! And Please do something about these very important Professional ideas Please Prime Minister of England, Prime Minister of Sweden, Prime Minister of Germany, Prime Minister of Italy, Prime Minister of Poland and that Includes the Mayor of London.😉😅😅😀😀😅😀😀😅😅😀😀😀😀😀😉😉

@v31.48

Жыл бұрын

You don’t understand. It’s NOT possible. All of this is only possible on new trains as they are designed for it.

Where is this unit now? I regularly use the Piccadilly line as I work in Harrow and I didn't see it at the District line's Ealing Common depot. Guessing it was relocated somewhere else.

@robbiefstrains9083

2 жыл бұрын

I believe it made its way to Ruislip depot for component recovery. So, there was one more “last” journey for it to take, which I was not aware of at the time.

@oludotunjohnshowemimo434

2 жыл бұрын

@@robbiefstrains9083 ok so to salvage spare parts for the remaining 72s on the Bakerloo line? Bet the doors will also be kept as well. I saw a few mk2 doors were defective and so they replaced them with mk1 doors.

@robbiefstrains9083

2 жыл бұрын

@@oludotunjohnshowemimo434 that’s right.

@oludotunjohnshowemimo434

2 жыл бұрын

@@robbiefstrains9083 makes absolute sense. When most the mk1s were gradually withdrawn from the Northern line, did they have parts stripped off before they were scrapped?

It sounds broken

Such a shame it’s going. But scince when was it announced it will be scrapped?

What line is it?

@Ishak_2013

2 жыл бұрын

Oh it's the piccadilly line!

If you are wondering how the train works 0 off and release 1 Shunt 2 series 3 Parallel 4th its emergency learnt this by playing Train Sim World 2 Bakerloo Line. This 1972 stock was the source of DTG sounds for Bakerloo Line and the original aluminium paint coming in as a DLC

When Aldwych is cut off by the station works at Holborn, will they still keep a working train down there for filming purposes?

@leeosborne3793

2 жыл бұрын

No. This was the unit kept there, and that's why it's been removed.

TOX22

I remember the days of guards on the tube and clippies on the buses, a more civilised era altogether. I rather liked "unpainted" stock; I rather dislike the graffiti. All part of the tastelessness of modern times.

@Gary0557

2 жыл бұрын

My Dad used to take me on the Central Line as a young lad at Woodford in the 60's and sometimes as a treat he'd sit me near the guard in the end carriage and I'd sit transfixed watching him operate the doors and pressing the buttons.

thats a 1973 stock right

@WaschiXtreme

Жыл бұрын

cos 1972 (bakerloo line) doesnt go to holborn nor ealing common

@robbiefstrains9083

Жыл бұрын

It is actually an ex Northern line 1972 mk1. At the time they were scrapping most of the Northern line stock, this unit was kept back and lived down at Aldwych to be used for various filming jobs - such as Tube Tales.

@WaschiXtreme

Жыл бұрын

@@robbiefstrains9083 ok ok sorry abt that then

@robbiefstrains9083

Жыл бұрын

@@WaschiXtreme not a problem at all. Feel free to ask questions - it’s all good. ☺️

Goin to museum 🤔

Actually it is painted becuase there is graffiti on it 😂😂😂😂

Looks painted to me 🤣 all be it unofficially