So what you´re saying is that EBMX controllers are VESC based? :o How awesome! Could you include an IMU sensor for balance applications or a wheelie-mode? :D

@Doctorbasss

Жыл бұрын

yes.. put one of these 9 axis gyro chip and make precise angle wheelie all the time!!

@MrDehicka

Жыл бұрын

Sadly they've used Chinese STM knockoff microcontroller (gigadevice) and it not compatible with standard VESC firmware. It must be ported to work on GD microcontroller.

Why don’t u turn off the over temp for both controllers n see which one blows 1st 😂

I am always turned off by hatchet job marketing. It should be a community and not attacking other manufactures.

@surronzak8154

Жыл бұрын

I can only see one doing this

Personally Id only trust independent reviews.

So basically what i got from this video is it seems the EBMX controller is inefficient, both produced the same 17kw useable output from the motor but the Ebmx needed 816 phase and the KO only needed 636 phase for the same end result.....

@mrhqyangtechnic_q_emx8180

Жыл бұрын

@Ajay Panwar lol, someone even calculate input power base on Phase amps, ridiculous

Interesting, thanks for doing that test. Btw there is someting here i noticed about the claimed max power... with no field weakening, it would be in fact difficult to reach 35kW... the motor bemf getting close to the battery voltage the phase current can't continu to be high. the Fw is electronically changing the bemf of the motor to help continu pushing phase amp to the motor and get more kW... the high kW number have more chances to happen at high rpm. and so phase current must follow too... I would be curious to see the same test with field weakening. Please Bruno, do something for that!

Thanks for the video. Now it’s clear to me why I’ll spend my money with KO and not EBMX. Test is full of more holes then Swiss cheese. Your fan boys will indeed jump on ship for the time being but as the experts chime in and point out all the flaws in your testing they will jump ship and this video will be deleted as your FB post was. 🤣✌🏽

@stevemech3787

Жыл бұрын

👍To the point!

@stilzkin77

Жыл бұрын

KO is talking about $1899 for their 56ah 72v battery when EBMX is over $3k for 57ah. It's just not even a question at this point

@de-bodgery

Жыл бұрын

Where do you guys come from? Did you LOOK at the many flaws in the KO designs? They aren't VESC based, aren't FOC and the power stage is not very good at all! GO ahead and buy KO, but your blindly doing so and wasting your money on an inferior product.

@jal187

Жыл бұрын

@@de-bodgery whatever you say lmfao. Then why is SurRonster back running a full KO Setup if it’s so flawed? 😂🤣😂

@de-bodgery

Жыл бұрын

@@jal187 Lots of people think KO is great. Lots of people don't know any better. This is easy to explain! Having "Experienced" the marketing and hype of KO myself, they are committed to pushing their controllers as the best thing there is, even when that's not the case. This video isn't faked in any way!

I noticed that during the last test (the 2nd attempt on the KO) the max rpm you have began with was about 4000rpm.. i guess that at higher rpm applying the load would have helped a bit more. peak efficiency normally happen at 50-60% of the no load rpm where torque and rpm are at their optimum together at the same time

Are you using VESCtool to do all the EBMX programming? Will it also work with the android VESCtool? How about with the DavegaX LCD? What is that dongle that interfaces between the EBMX controller and USB inside the clear plastic case?

I don’t really understand, if the KO managed to push the same output power with less amps it means it’s better. You need to compare phase amps as a function of output not just phase amps by itself.

@surronzak8154

Жыл бұрын

Exactly, hilarious 😂

@sn0wchyld

Жыл бұрын

They literally gave you the #'s in the vid, showing the KO needed more input power than the EBMX to hit hte max power point. KO... 24kw to produce 17.5kw. EBMX... 22kw to produce 17kw. The max phase amps occur at a different operating point, so not actually relevant to the comparison your making. PS - not a fan of this test by ebmx, as they appear to be doing a similar (albeit slightly less) sly of hand as KO did back comparing KO's MX motor to the stock surron. But the fact is KO's setup is less efficient than the eBMX - given eBMX use a vesc based brain that isn't actually too surprising, as VESC is well known for being one of the best out there.

@nxdboi

Жыл бұрын

@@sn0wchyld "KO... 24kw to produce 17.5kw. EBMX... 22kw to produce 17kw" Scaled to the same output, that is so marginal that it won't even really matter.

@sn0wchyld

Жыл бұрын

@@nxdboi 1.5kw / 8% efficiency difference is not trivial mate. Thats 30% more heat being generated, and (all else being equal, at that power...) >30% reduction in run time to overheat, and range. In any case, the point was that, contrary to the OP's claim, KO was less efficient, not EBMX... I was scratching my head as to how somone thought it was the opposite with the #s right there in front of them, other than just being a parrot of KO's front guy, who made the same silly mistake.

@JustinBleeder

Жыл бұрын

@@nxdboi I think some of the comparison has to be taken as implied too. The robust nature of the EBMX controller (additional mosfets and single piece copper bus bars) gives it the edge when considering future upgrades to the motor that could require greater loads .

How come in the test you have the ko controller sealed and the ebmx split open for the circuitry to cool? Seems like a biased test to me...

Compare apples to apples next time... Run both at their max rated amps or both below that. Also open or close both of the controllers. And please do not go and ruin the community by discrediting other companies like you are doing here.

@boardstopia

Жыл бұрын

@@ehvelectrichovercraftvehic6141 maybe the ebmx will do that too when running the max rated phase amps. This also isn't a real world test and will never be seen on the street or in the dirt. The KO might be able to achieve these power levels in a real world situation. Of course the controller does not use giant connectors like the ebmx does. But thats where the cost difference comes in. Compare the controller to a similar priced one like the upcoming rush controller and it will certainly outperform the ebmx.

@kiwilife3789

Жыл бұрын

@(EHV) Electric Hovercraft Vehicle Ebmx are just damaging their reputation with this false and clearly biased test, Matt has just shown he clearly has a very poor working knowledge and if I were him Id be embarrassed, seriously damaged the reputation of the company. They are trying to baffle us with BS because clearly the brilliance has left the building.

@Heck1er

Жыл бұрын

I noticed the same thing, the KO controller was closed up face down, the fan wont do much pointing at the back away from the heat sync while the EBMX controller is opened up, and 30 seconds will make a difference as the heat can totally escape.

@IncredibleCisco

Жыл бұрын

@@jayjay6782 more details please?

@surronzak8154

Жыл бұрын

@@jayjay6782 exactly 😂

so is the issue the heat or the motor that keeps it at 17kw? when it should just go to sun temps to the moon lol. im guessing its gotta be some type of protection security backing it off

Not taking sides... don't have experience with either of these controllers, but I definitely question the reliability of his testing. Only a faint whiff of the scientific method here... But a strong vibe of modern salesmanship.

This is truly embarrassing of EBMX. Choking a motor, lying about temps, filming in a vertical form where you control the side text. Injecting whatever rubbish you please. The motor didn't overheat on the second run, you could clearly see the temps on that KO dashboard. Of course a motor will heat up if you completely choke it to zero from max rpm. When the hell would that happen in real life? The answer is never. They should be careful of what they're digging. It can quickly turn into a deep grave.

@Doctorbasss

Жыл бұрын

I agree with partial of your statement. I disagree on the type of test that you seem to confuse. It is clear that it is a DYNO test, not a bike running test. A DYNO test of a motor ( not a bike running) is made this way. Many motor dyno ar emade this way. even all QS motor are also supplying dyno graph down to 0 rpm. But on these test i also think it is not fair as it should be. the claimed 35kW of a motor can not be verified without all optimal confitions. this test is without field weakening and done at lower rpm tan it should be. The more rpm and torque the more kW. I agree this test is not totally transparent.

@FPVWorkshop

Жыл бұрын

agreed its so funny how they are so focused on KO. I would love to see the new KO controller benched vs this one as they are the same price point. I heard their controller is available on Chinese ebay or something as it comes from a company in shenzen apparently.

@FPVWorkshop

Жыл бұрын

@(EHV) Electric Hovercraft Vehicle This is not a valid test nor does it show several elements of the results that we claimed such as the controller cutting out. At the point here we are told the control cut out the dial for the controller temp was clearly at normal temperature. I don't believe or trust these results at all, there was very little disclosure on the tunes and on the details of this along with. Ebmx don't make this controller they buy it in. Their controller is clearly the same the the Chinese one as the fet board is exactly the same design and lay out. That is undeniable i think at this point, No one expect EBMX to make anything as everyone knows they are just a brand / middle men that put their logo on off the shelf products out of China.

@scottdmartin

Жыл бұрын

I would like to see the ko rpm percentages to see if they were all set to 100%

@nblazing

Жыл бұрын

@@scottdmartin ditto. Very secretive "FACTUAL" test.

Informative video! Thanks for sharing. I just received the race spec. KO motor and controller. Hopefully the new controller is better than the old one. I also have an ebmx 72 V 57 AH battery. What are the max current and phase amps the battery can handle? Thanks.

@matthew_wauters

Жыл бұрын

The race spec controller shares the same fet board as the pro controller but has different capacitors... very doubtful it can do the numbers they are claiming it can (99.9999% sure it cant) but that is not to say it wont still give you plenty of power. The EBXM battery should be limited to about 225 line amps to keep things working well. That will get you over 15kw and that should be more that enough to knock hour socks off and not overheat anything too bad (assuming you dont go out and hold open throttle for a long time).

@Doctorbasss

Жыл бұрын

The battery does not produce any "phase amp". phase amp is related to what the controlerl is pushing to the motor ONLY. Batt or line amp is what is related to what current the battery output is

I suggest that everyone do your research BEFORE buying from KO or EBMX. What you see in this video is born out in my investigation into both controller designs. KO controllers overheat quickly as you see in this video for very obvious reasons. The lack of quality design work, lack of sufficient copper, poor current paths and other details are the core reasons for the over heating and FAR less than advertised specs current delivery.

Sweet video you're the first one to test these products love to see some more.

is it still $80 for the app that's broken? I just bought a BAC8000, 72v 42ah, ebmx essential kit, seat extender. Just wondering if I can get the app for free after spending nearly $7000 on ebmx extras?

@EBMXtreme

Жыл бұрын

The app for the new controller is free. If you are having any app issues with your ASI kit, please contact us directly and we are happy to help resolve any issues you have.

Why didn’t you show the phase map settings to the KO motor? You have to put it all on 100% for it not to restrict power.

@dannsiah5659

Жыл бұрын

Why???????????

@scottdmartin

Жыл бұрын

@@dannsiah5659 it’s like a torque curve, the stock hex file has the power dialed down once the rpm’s hit over 5500

@matthew_wauters

Жыл бұрын

The tunes on both controllers were the ones that would be used on bikes … you would not run that at 100% on all rpm riding and the VSEC tune was also set for the tune that’s used when riding.

@scottdmartin

Жыл бұрын

@@matthew_wauters After 3000 rpm I’m riding at all 100% but I’m riding street and not dirt though. I’m at 370dc line and 800pa

Dang man….I see the case for both controllers but this seems like an attack more than a test. I wanna see the companies come together. Not saying KO hasn’t fired shots over the bow but this is getting a little crazy. Dividing the community too. Look at these comments….we could have seen a test with the bac 8000 and 4000 included so it was more of a shootout without implying that KO is Pinocchio. There are better ways to bring this to light of you feel a company is lying. I love EBMX but this feels similar to how political parties treat each other. Let’s allow competition to drive innovation….if the ebmx controller is better then KO will have to respond, the customers will tel the true story. Also the ebmx is still pre order….if they come out and have any issues in large production it’s going to be magnified cause people will return to this video…

Are you going to make your own app or just go with the vesc tool?

@BrunoPOWEEER

Жыл бұрын

Own app… it’s nearly ready…

@bj97301

Жыл бұрын

@@BrunoPOWEEER can it still work with vesc tools?

Guys, did you test QS138 90H with high amp currents? I wonder at what amps the saturation drives torque constant down significantly.

@EBMXtreme

Жыл бұрын

We have run the water cooled QS180 up to 37kW (input) running at 422amps and producing and output power of 31kW with torque peaking (75nm) at about the same time.

I can smell the dramapost 😂😂

I've been abusing my KO set up for 3 months now and haven't experienced any overheating.

From tech specs: Input Voltage Range 40v - 100v. What's voltage rating for Mosfets in X-9000? To be safe on 100V battery with 900A phase amps it has to be at least 115-120V. I need to know before buying that it withstands ripple peaks on 100V input or it will be fried instantly.

@EBMXtreme

Жыл бұрын

We have done our best to be clear about the "working voltage" range of the controller which is currently listed as up to a 20S battery, however we have bene testing with 22S now as well and are confident using 22S batteries. We will look to revise our documents to make sure this is clear for all to see. Check out the product brochure off of our website for more info.

The Motor Cut off temp can go up to 150C

Why isn't yours in a case surely being out of case means it Wil latay cooler and perform better am I wrong?

@christianwagner6244

Жыл бұрын

Probably just out of case for measurements. I´d say that the case will not effect the test, as it´s just 30 seconds of load without any ambient influence(no wind or something).

Congratulations on your tests and the development of your controller against the KO. However I note that your controller is not confined in a box like the KO, what are the temperature results when your controller is confined?

@20play

Жыл бұрын

I would add that it would be interesting to see with the thermal camera which components heat up the most on your cards.

@matthew_wauters

Жыл бұрын

The lid is not on the controller but that is not going to affect the heat for this type of test. The temp monitoring sensors are attached to the lower controller board (power board) which is direcly hooked to the head sinks that are on the bottom of the controller.

what's the music in the beginning???

I'm wondering if you would mind doing a test against the KO Rush Controller KO announced new to the Market. Do the test with 600 Amps and 1800 Phase amps. My money is with KO

@SwarmMcReynolds

Жыл бұрын

1800 phase amps lmaooo no controller can push that 😂

@surronzak8154

Жыл бұрын

@@SwarmMcReynolds wait and see

@SwarmMcReynolds

Жыл бұрын

@@surronzak8154 why would I I’m fine with my bac 8k easily hits 75mph all day with a shtty 72v from China

@sn0wchyld

Жыл бұрын

its not gonna be physically possible to push 1800amps into this motor without a VERY big battery and even then, only to a few hundred rpm... that ignores the inductance of the motor too... phase -phase resistance is about 10mohm (at least, according to the only guy I know who's posted that data, KO certainly doesn't want to) - thats 32kw of heat, just copper heat mind you, at 1800 amps - ignoring any other losses. For contrast, this motor is hitting 100C in about 20seconds ingesting about 3-7kw of heat... 30+kw vs ~5kw... that thing will cook in seconds. Alternatively it'll never see 1800 (you need 54VDC just to push that into the motor at standstill, much less while spinning), overall impedances will limit it to something less, much like the MX version.

So hang on, both controllers produced 17kw on the the motor output. Exactly the same power but the EBMX required more phase amps than the KO controller to produce the same output power. Seems to me the KO is just more efficient. As for overheating I’m guessing the water cooled heat sink has more material to soak the heat while it’s sitting on the bench with no airflow. You guys are clutching at straws. This video is quite pathetic 😂

@sn0wchyld

Жыл бұрын

well done for copy-pasting KO's criticism problem is its wrong, because you, like KO, assume the max phase amps happens at the max power output. Clue... it doesn't. The EBMX is, at least on this test, significantly more efficient at the max power point than KO. KO needs 24kw to put out 17.5kw. EBMX requires 22kw to put out 17kw. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what one is more efficient. Thats not to say this test is without faults or issues, its got quite a few infact... but KO have been caught out 'running their mouth' before, and now again, pointing the finger while simultaneously making themselves look the fool to anyone who cares to think before they speak.

@sn0wchyld

Жыл бұрын

@@jayjay6782 Bloody hell mate chill out... take a look at the damn vid. the 17kw happens at about 3500rpm. That is a lo0ong way from stall. max torque however happens at any rpm below which the controller can push out its own max phase amps... could be stall, could be most of the RPM range, depends where you set your max phase amps vs the impedance + BEMF of the motor. in this case it happens below about 2500rpm down to stall... But yea... IM the muppet, 'cause apparently I understand fuck all about motors and can look at data tables without my brain blowing all its fuses lol... SMH. Look at the damn tables in the vid mate. Its plane to see for anyone who isn't a ... what was it again? a muppet? :D

@sn0wchyld

Жыл бұрын

@@jayjay6782 Jesus mate... I told you what the 'magic' was already. its called 'phase amp limit' - you know, that thing they limited to 800 in this vid. The thing they showed was at 800 in this vid up to about 2500rpm ... or even higher rpms for the KO controller, given it was only putting out ~500. Go look up any motor curve that's been paired with a controller (cause you know... controllers are needed, given motors tend to run 'poorly' (sarcasm) hooked direct to a battery - you'll see a area of flat torque output - that is also the highest point on the torque curve. That means... its max torque output... is at >0rpm. I also said 'possibly' and 'most' not 'anywhere'. But again... wtf do i know?

@sn0wchyld

Жыл бұрын

@@jayjay6782 Twist what ffs. This was by all regards a crap test. But the OP to whom I responded was equally (or perhaps, even more) wrong. You then did the same (17kw happens at 3500rpm, not near stall, for example). How is any of this defending EBMX? Both vendours fucked this up, and the fanboys on both sides are foaming at the mouth to express their 'keen knowledge' by parroting those same incorrect statements.

@sn0wchyld

Жыл бұрын

@@jayjay6782 if they're gonna respond then its not much to ask that they dont make the same dumb mistakes, nor criticise EBMX for doing the exact same things they've done themselves in the past, nor do it all with a 'lol your dumb' type of attitude. If EBMX are dumb for what they did, best not be equally dumb when 'correcting' them.

You have the EBMX Controller with now cover and cold air blowing on it. The KO Pro is lying face down and enclosed. eeeeekkkk Why is the EBMX not covered. Looks to me like you guys spent some money investing on that controller and will do anything to make KO look bad. I purchased the New KO RUSH 1800 Phase amps. Currently I'm running the KO Pro combo and loving it. I like EBMX Products but I get turned off when you guys play dirty and unfair. :(

@de-bodgery

Жыл бұрын

You do realize that BOTH controllers are heat sink down? Who cares if the top cover is off? There is nothing there making heat!

@de-bodgery

Жыл бұрын

The ones playing dirty and unfair are KO NOT EBMX!

Wait a minute. Everything looks good, but are you telling me that one is expected to run the X9000 with the cover off? Obviously we want the best controller - motor combination, but it doesn't seem fair if you have a depotted, or never been potted EBMX vs manufactured fully encased, potted controller.? ? And now how can we trust you data going forward?

@EBMXtreme

Жыл бұрын

Hi T Rone - not sure what you are on about here ... this was a R&D unit that was not potted yet. X-9000 controllers are fully potted. The cover being off did not affect this test in any meaningful way. There are temp sensors on the fet board and they measure heat as the board heats up, same as KO (we have multiple and they have one). The KO controller are not potted. There is a lot of info and tear down videos on these controllers online - please do a bit more research.

@trone7280

Жыл бұрын

@@EBMXtreme why is the cover on the KO?

Ebmx makes great batteries, there is no doubt about that at all, yes they are a little pricey but you get what you pay for. Having said that, its sad to see this test is not conducted in equal grounds and in a bias manner, both companies Ebmx and KO make outstanding products that if it wanst for both of them, EV would not be as fun as they are, so thank you and if possible, please re-think your approach and conduct a new test, maybe even reach out to KO for their support too ?

@surronzak8154

Жыл бұрын

They can’t do a proper test, they would loose 😅

@FPVWorkshop

Жыл бұрын

They dont make anything, they buy everything off the shelf in China

@FPVWorkshop

Жыл бұрын

@(EHV) Electric Hovercraft Vehicle i think you will find ebmx took the first swing and now they are getting swamped with people calling their bs out...especially when they don't make anything or have any engineering background at all. It is a joke to try to take on a proper manufacturer at their own game when you are a middle man. They are out gunned in every way, they cant win on price point, they cant win on engineering, or design and they cant win on spec as they are getting third parties to make all their stuff. Why they decided to publicly bash the KO controller on Facebook and then with this BS video is beyond me. They have basically just committed suicide.

My desire here is that people are aware of what is and what isn't good design work and what will last long term and under hard use conditions. These controllers are expensive and I want you to make good choices and not ones based on misinformation and false advertising. EBMX appears not to cut corners and KO shows lots of evidence of reducing costs and quality in many ways. EBMX is open source and VESC based and that's a VERY GOOD thing for you. KO is not and is using old and proprietary controller technologies.

I noticed ebmx came controller is uncovered vs ko covered

@surronzak8154

Жыл бұрын

@(EHV) Electric Hovercraft Vehicle open it than

I mean, KO does make controllers (Factory Spec & Rush) in the same price range as the EBMX controller. The one you tested is quite literally 2 hundred dollars cheaper.

@EBMXtreme

Жыл бұрын

What country are you in mate? KO Pro landed in the USA with 25% tax and freight is actually a lot more than our X-9000. KO advertise pricing without RRP and landed cost in the countries we all live in that are purchasing these after market parts. fair point hey

@nxdboi

Жыл бұрын

@@EBMXtreme Fair point. In the US you can purchase one with free shipping atm. I do think it's a little unfair to judge the capabilities of the controllers based on factors that are beyond the control of the manufacturers, though. The same point could be made in reverse to suggest that your controller should be cheaper _because_ you don't have to deal with those things, can't it?

@EBMXtreme

Жыл бұрын

@@nxdboi we have to deal with exactly the same things with distributor and usd sales price having that landed tax …

Interesting 😊good to wait EBMX controller looking good at this point.

KO is a scam

Might be worth exploring why KO wins at low rpms vs EMBX's offering, putting out more torque than EBMX despite using fewer phase amps... and also why their power drops off so rapidly above 4krpm, and why their test starts at 8800rpm vs 6500 for EBMX, among some other issues I'm seeing here. Kind of misleading to claim victory when there's some, lets say, weirdness to the data shown. Not to say KO's infallible either, their response to this is arguably even worse than your interpretation here. Just wish there was some better quality and standards than this in the 'small emoto' / ebike industry.

incriminating evidence... KO how do you plead? KO: Nolo contendere.

Ko powwaaaaa great review. KO way better haha

EBMX, still the GOAT

Poor little ko, It tried. Guess you guys gotta make a motor now too

@nblazing

Жыл бұрын

They'll buy a motor from china and sell it for 2x. Where KO build their motors in house.

@surronzak8154

Жыл бұрын

Poor little Mayhemjach, you fell into the trap 😂

@FPVWorkshop

Жыл бұрын

If you believe this test you deserve to buy their re-branded stuff :)

@1917VIL

Жыл бұрын

@@FPVWorkshop yup!

@de-bodgery

Жыл бұрын

@@nblazing Novel idea, GET a dyno and prove that the above test is invalid! You can't of course. And lets face facts, EVERYTHING from KO is China made and every possible corner you can cut to cheapen everything is taken!

KO power 🔥🔥

Many of you may be familiar with the Electric Motorcycle Builds forum on FB. There is an ongoing debate about KO and EBMX controllers. I have no vested interest in either company, just in good products and showing areas where things could be done better! I have spent many hours in this Facebook forum explaining why the EBMX design is far superior to KO in many ways. I have tried to point out flaws I see in the KO products but I have been met with misdirection, insults and BS from the KO people that post in that thread. The KO guys claim I am the CEO of EBMX (I most definitely am not and not even in the same country as EBMX)! They attempt to misdirect as tactics to avoid the points I’m trying to discuss. *** I suggest that everyone do your research BEFORE buying from KO or EBMX. What you see in this video is born out in my investigation into both controller designs. KO controllers overheat quickly as you see in this video for very obvious reasons. The lack of quality design work, lack of sufficient copper, poor current paths and other details are the core reasons for the over heating and FAR less than advertised specs current delivery. *** My desire here is that people are aware of what is and what isn't good design work and what will last long term and under hard use conditions. These controllers are expensive and I want you to make good choices and not ones based on misinformation and false advertising. EBMX appears not to cut corners and KO shows lots of evidence of reducing costs and quality in many ways. EBMX is open source and VESC based and that's a VERY GOOD thing for you. KO is not and is using old and proprietary controller technologies.