Shouldn’t go into a slot canyon when rain is in the forecast.

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

No, you should not. That's why I listed that as the #1 mistake we made.

@gregoryphillips5518

Жыл бұрын

Hey thanks 👍

@robbiesharp311

Жыл бұрын

Thanks mom.

@cabanford

Жыл бұрын

Goes without saying... Oh, wait.

@valoriestewart9760

Жыл бұрын

Especially a slot canyon like that... Terrifying

I was part of the group of 4 - I can only echo a lot of the sentiments in the comments here. We thought to know, like you and your partner, that we could run through this in ~30 minutes and be out before the rain started. Obviously running into a group of 12 is an added difficulty, but to be expected in a canyon such as Keyhole. All in all, not an experience you or we should ever repeat. Also consider the (albeit unlikely) scenario where you or your partner got injured during a rappel or otherwise in canyon slowing you and everyone else down. As you said, SAR would be unable to help in a flashflood scenario such as this one, and it's just not a risk anyone should be taking. I'm glad we all got out and hoped we learned our lessons.

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

Part of me wants to argue that I was right. But if my kid did something stupid and used that argument, I’d just say ‘you’re only right until you’re wrong.’ 5 minutes later starting, 5 minutes earlier raining and not letting up. Things could’ve been different. Glad we were all ok and learned something from it.

In 2018 I hired a guide to take my family of 5 hiking the State and National parks across Utah. We learned a lot of interesting but also important advice and information during that trip. The saying that sticks with me the most is: “First canyon rain, then canyon drain”. They don’t call them flash floods for nothin’. Glad all of you got out safely, definitely dodged a bullet this time…

That was a close call. As many know the rain falling in a canyon is bad enough, but worse is the rain that falls well upstream that you may not even know has fallen. Thankfully everyone got out safe. Good to show this to give everyone a reality check.

Thanks for sharing, everyone interested in doing adventures like this has to learn this lesson for the first time. For tight enclosed spaces like this, adage goes: "Cloud in the sky, you just might die."

Great people for sticking around and making sure everyone got out safe and sound. I'd want you on my team any day ! 👍 🇨🇦 ✌️

Hey Jerry, thanks for posting! We were the group who got out before the family. Thanks a bunch for helping us keep them calm!! Big time learning experience for all involved (including myself) for sure

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

Glad everyone was OK. Scary and eye opening experience, for sure.

7 people were killed in this canyon in 2015 trying to do a quick run and beat some afternoon rain! I’ve spent a lot of time canyoneering in Zion and I’ve definitely been disappointed to lose days to rain but it’s better than drowning in a slot canyon.

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

It’s definitely always safer to wait. As they say, the canyon will always be there another day.

@nonyabizz3533

Жыл бұрын

Nah bro sometimes you have to push the envelope. The fear of dying can be addicting

@blueliner_7inpa933

Жыл бұрын

@@nonyabizz3533 Yeah, some people would rather take that risk and chance becoming a statistic of those that gave it a go and lost. Meanwhile loved ones will unnecessarily be left to grieve about what could have been if only their family members had used some common sense.

@nonyabizz3533

Жыл бұрын

@@blueliner_7inpa933 it's just life. Not that big of a deal

@TomDutch

Жыл бұрын

@@nonyabizz3533 If you die without Christ it IS a big of a deal... you don't want to perish forever. Hell and heaven are real.

The humility in this comment thread is so refreshing. I am so glad you all made it safely and are humble about the lessons learned.

@JerryArizona

Жыл бұрын

Thanks. I figure it's all for nothing if I can't learn from my mistakes. Which is a good philosophy when you make as many mistakes as I do.

Thank you for sharing… this reminds me tragedy happened at the same canyon in 2015… so glad that all of you are safe!

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

I'm far too aware of that tragedy. That's something I hope that people realize when watching this. Keyhole is the 'easiest' technical canyon in Zion. Keyhole has also claimed more lives than any other canyon in Zion. You gotta be careful, even when the adventure seems straightforward.

Sooooo dangerous and scary! Glad everyone made it out alive.

It’s one thing to do this solo with rain in the forecast, but to take a group is flat out irresponsible. No way that should go.

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

Lots of decisions on this day could be questioned, for sure. Hopefully the video helps some people see that. I know I’ve learned from this experience.

Those beautiful canyon walls don’t get scoured twenty feet up without water, carrying sand, rocks, and debris, flowing at high speed! Good job on your day, and this video. Thanks!

Man that would definitely make for a hair raising adventure! 😮 big props/respect to y’all for sticking around and making sure no one got into real trouble. 👏 👏 👏

Don’t be a Jerry and stay away from slots when bad weather is in the forecast.

Whew.....what an adventure....glad all are safe. Love slot canyons...this was a sobering reminder of what they can quickly become.

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

Two of the closest calls I've had where in two of the shortest, most straightforward canyons. Definitely hope this makes people realize to take their adventures seriously. Even when they seem easy.

Enjoyed the footage from Keyhole. Beautiful place. This was a good reminder of how quickly conditions can change, and things can get hairy. Excited to see Zion for the first time this Fall, and will make sure to stay updated on the weather. Thanks for the great upload 😍👍 👍

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

Definitely keep your eye on the weather.

Awesome adventure, keep it going. Love watching your adventures.

Thanks for bringing me along 👍🏻

I just want to say I watch ALL your videos and they really help me plan my hikes all the way from East coast. So thank you!!!! Zion in 32 days!

@JerryArizona

9 ай бұрын

Glad you find them helpful. Enjoy Zion! Love that place.

Been really enjoying your videos, thanks for posting this one. A lot to learn from this and glad you got out safely.

You did just fine. Thanks for sharing!

Cool Keyhole Slot (but not for me with rain in the forecast). Thanks for sharing! All is good for the next adventure!!

Did a lot of canyoneering in Zion back in the eighties and nineties. We found that the slickrock areas surrounding many of the slot canyons had a lot of capacity to absorb water in slickrock tanks, etc. That is if they were dry to begin with. I've seen it rain hard all day and the water level not even go up one inch! But if the tanks are full already, look out! It doesn't take much at all to cause a catastrophic flood in the slots! Have fun but be safe.

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

We definitely looked at the ground before going in. It was relatively dry so we knew it would soak up a bit before flashing. Still, if it hadnt let up, it could’ve been big trouble for the groups behind us.

I once took a group of friends hiking in St George during the summer. At the last minute, a friend got invited who didn't have the fitness to do the hike, and I didn't have the experience at the time to cancel, change it to something easier, or tell the person they can't come. We ran out of water halfway through the hike, then almost got ledged on the way back. We were supposed to be back before noon, but it was around 3 in the afternoon and 106 degrees and no shade when we finally made it back. It's so easy to make a single bad decision that puts lives in peril. We all made it back ok, and I'm glad you did too.

@JerryArizona

Жыл бұрын

Thanks. Mother Nature can be very unforgiving.

Great footage ! Beautiful canyon. Glad you all got out safely.

Great video Way to stay and make sure everyone got out. Solid! 👍

Be safe please thank you ! Glad you helped the larger group I commend you for helping other hikers . Safe weather conditions as well . Don't take that extra risk . Public Safety first thank you ! From Arizona peace and Joy .

I remember the tragedy of 11 people, some different nationalities dying in Antelope Canyon near Page on the 12 August 1997. I was visiting the area again but did not venture down on that occasion. Clear blue sky for miles, no indication of rain yet 120 feet of canyon filled to the brim from a rainstorm over 20 miles away ! Some bodies were never found ! I went through with a pal mid. September 2003. A plaque had been erected with their names in memorium. That's what you call a rude reminder of the power of flash floods.

Wow that got scary fast, I heard stories of the dangers in a flash flood and heard one store where the whole group didn’t make it on a bad flood. Be safe and love your contents it shows real conditions of hiking.

Great video And transitions etc thanks for posting

I really appreciate the debrief at the end. Scary stuff and glad everyone got out ok. Also, cool canyon!

This is too scary! Glad everyone made it out safely.

That was so stressful to watch! We’re filming an episode in Zion this weekend. Gonna be extra cautious now.

Scary! Glad all made it out safely.

Best part about hiking is enjoying the journey n scenery. Not rushing

Great video! Thank you

@JerryArizona

Жыл бұрын

Lots of mistakes here. Luckily everyone was OK.

Schon meine Oma sagte vor 70 Jahren: "Wer nicht rappeln kann, soll´s sein lassen!"

What good footage!!!

Wow Jerry! Just got back from Escalante area and the canyons where sloppy and beat up from flash floods. Had to bail on doing Spooky due to rain. Went back and did it the next day. Scary stuff.

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

I would not want to see spooky during a flash. Hell, I wouldn’t want to see Hole in the Rock Road during a flash.

Zion is my all time favorite place, but it certainly demands respect

@XploreAz

2 жыл бұрын

Mother Nature in general demands respect.

Thank God everyone is fine.....

Wow! What an experience.

I was definitely yelling at you the whole time, but only because I wanted you to get safely out in time! I did this canyon almost twenty years ago, and it has remained one of my favorite adventures ever. Keyhole is my all time favorite slot canyon that I've ever done. I love the footage, and it was awesome to watch. Just stay safe! Wait, maybe I did pine creek. I remember there was a super long free repel at the end... maybe it was pine creek. Anyway, thanks for the video. Makes me wish I didn't live so far from Zion's now. Wait, now I remember... we did both in the same day. Then we did Behunin (spelling?). Anyway it's been twenty years, and it's really fun to remember.

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

I posted a Pine Creek video right after this one. We did Keyhole one day, then Imlay, then Pine Creek. Pine Creek has the 100' free hanger at the end. Awesome canyon. I heard Behunin is a great canyon too. And yeah. Not the best decisions this day.

This is a totally avoidable situation

@blueliner_7inpa933

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely!

This is how I imagine the strid would look if drained.

@reanbowlerd5988

Жыл бұрын

Yeah probably something similar to this

Spent some time back in Zion and you can never take the conditions lightly. I have seen what a flood can do there and rescue times are very long and dangerous. nice video

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

I wanted it to show what happened. How it went from a fun, sunny day to us thinking people might die in a matter of minutes. (Hence all the timestamps.) Hopefully some people see that and think twice before making a choice like we did this day. Had done the canyon before. It's super easy. It's short. And it can still kill you in the blink of an eye.

Really enjoy the videos. Have you hiked in dark canyon or grand gulch?

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! Dark Canyon is on the list. just haven't made it yet. I'll need to check out Grand Gulch. I've heard about it, but haven't done any research yet.

"We'll do it fast." (20 people in your way because it's a national park) how many times can you roll that pair of dice if you plan on doing this your whole life?.

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

I plan on doing this exactly 0 more times.

@fixednstoned861

2 жыл бұрын

Valid question. Some would ask, what is life without the chances ad risks

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

@@fixednstoned861 in all seriousness, I definitely take risks. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t go outside, let alone canyoneer. But this did teach me that I need to take into account if there are other people in the canyon if I’m being this aggressive with risk; given that variable, we should’ve stayed out of the lower section in retrospect.

I've been in buckskin 2 different times when it started to sprinkle on us.. creepy lol. Haven't seen rain while in keyhole yet

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

Backpacked Buckskin from Whitehouse and it was completely dry. Camped for two days. Walked back to Whitehouse and there was 6~12" of freezing water flowing in the Paria. Apparently it snowed in Bryce(!) the day we went in and flashed all the way down where we were. Never saw a cloud. Keyhole has a really small drainage, so you can actually see the clouds. Still, not recommended.

Thank you for sharing! Any idea what pants Nick is wearing and the backpack he is using?

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

Arcteryx AR 35 pack. He said he doesn't know what pants he had on.

And that's why I hate going into tight places with big groups! Glad it all worked out in the end though!

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah. I knew with a group of 2 we could get through in under 20 minutes and that's about how much time we had from the look of the skies.

@MattKester

2 жыл бұрын

@@JerryArizona yeah, I was definitely impressed. Every time I do one with the boys, we always spend at least two hours at every rappel. It’s a wonder we ever get anywhere!

Thank god they’re all alive🙏 . That was so close😬😬😬😬😬😬😬😬

I could never go through that. I would be panicking. My hands were sweating for you all. Being outside was ok.

such beautiful place

@JerryArizona

Жыл бұрын

It is a great canyon. But not in the rain....

It is shocking how fast it can rain can start in a desert. Experienced this before too

Wild stuff Jerry! Thanks for sharing, take care and be well.

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

I just need to stop doing canyons with Nick. That dude is a flash flood magnet.

As someone who got hailed on up in the Rockies: Step One of Stupid; "We can outrace the rain!"

You guys are absolutely amazing. We love what you guys doing. Flash flood is dangerous, we experienced that when we were hiking at wired pass. It was no joke.

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! Tina and I hike Wire Pass to Buckskin almost every year. THAT is one place I DO NOT want to get caught in a flash flood, for sure.

@tamtolam

2 жыл бұрын

@@JerryArizona I love your wired pass video too. You and Tina are absolutely amazing and having many adventures together. I admire both of you a lot. Can’t wait to see your next video 🥰

That is just stupid. At least you learned a valuable lesson.

@kevinbedard27

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed. You knew a storm was coming, yet you went in there anyway. Careless.

Whoa, that was intense!

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

A little too intense.

Great video. I saw a clip from this video in one that Homemade Wanderlust inserted into her video from today. It intrigued me enough that I came and found you. Thank you for watching out and waiting for that group that was behind you. Dangerous stuff, but exciting all at the same time. Were you allowed to traverse that slot canyon without a guide? I thought they didn't allow that.

@JerryArizona

Жыл бұрын

Wow....I just watched that video. Crazy that Dixie used my footage! As far as guides, I don't believe the park allows them. You can get a permit for Keyhole (and many other technical canyons) and go yourself. They'll quiz you on your gear and experiences, but otherwise you're on your own. This was my third time through the canyon, so I probably got too complacent with the weather. In retrospect, we should have bailed when we knew others were in the canyon, and hiked to the base to make sure they got out. We went fast, but we still slowed them down when we jumped them and it could have just put them in more danger...or, better still, not even gone at all.

@Pack.Leader

Жыл бұрын

@@JerryArizona Thanks so much for replying, and going to see Dixie's video. It was enough to get me to look you up! I'm just glad all of you made it out of there and didn't end up on some "I shouldn't be alive" show. 🤣 Thanks for the information on guides and whatnot. I live in NM so those slot canyons cry out to me every time I see them in a video. So magical.

Jerry, you truly are one of a kind. ("Kind", pun intended)

@JerryArizona

Жыл бұрын

Thanks. Wish I'd just bailed before the first rap and went to the bottom to make sure they were OK. Or else stayed with the larger groups and helped them through. I really didn't help at all and jumping them just put them in the canyon for longer....

@diegoaduriz9433

Жыл бұрын

@@JerryArizona ❤

"We're just going to go this real quick." Famous last words...! 😂 In all seriousness... this is crazy, man. Seeing that water flowing after the 7 minute mark... Scary stuff. So glad all made it out alright.

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

The other groups said the sound of the runoff was deafening inside. Glad I wasn't in there to hear it. We were fine on our trip through, but going back in? That was scary as hell. Can't imagine how it felt for those people being in there when it was really coming down, especially if they didn't know how much further they had to go to get out.

I respect you guys not going in deeper to help out the last group. You aren't Superman. Let the idiots go in and save the helpless. You're no help to anyone dead and no one else has to live with the regret nor consequences. Just stick to your limits. You did good.

@JerryArizona

Жыл бұрын

Thanks. After comments from this video, I've learned. Should've just bailed before the first rappel then waited at the bottom to make sure they got out. Wasn't much help to anyone in canyon, and jumping them just slowed them down when rain was on it's way. Not by much, but sometimes it doesn't take much.

I’m just glad everyone got out okay

@JerryArizona

Жыл бұрын

Me too. And lots of lessons learned that day that will hopefully make us and some people who watch this more careful.

Love that! Be good to each other! Kindness is Gangster!

Dang - spooky. Do you know if there's any good video anyone has ever taken (hopefully remotely) from inside one of these canyons while it's experiencing serious flooding?

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

Personally I haven't seen any. I did see a video of Pine Creek flash flooding from the Canyon Overlook trail. Completely filled to the top. Couldn't get it out of my head when we did that canyon, realizing that was a couple hundred feet of water....

@RossMcLendon

2 жыл бұрын

@@JerryArizona I think I just watched the video you're talking about and 😨 crap, that is insane. I doubt you could get a camera rig installed high enough to make it through something like that without being washed away. It's hard to believe a slot that deep can fill up completely with water; it'd be pretty certain death to be in there when that happened. Thanks for this video and info - it definitely helps to make the danger of this sort of thing clear. I'm glad you guys and the groups that you passed didn't find yourselves in that sort of torrent!

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

I'll have a video from inside Pine Creek done in a couple weeks. It'll make that video from the top even more insane when you see how it looks on the inside. Definitely nothing could survive in there if it flashed.

Tough call to go in but it happens when you are an adventurer. I was one of the four survivors of the behunin flash a few years ago. Same thing, called off the canyon for a smaller one (behunin)and thought we had the time to get out before the rain. Battled for our lives for a 1.5 hours in there as it came too fast as soon as the rain began. Risk is part of the game. Be safe all!

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

I was like "I wonder if this is the dude from the BackpackerTV video" and sure enough, it was. That video was amazing and scary as hell. I've seen it a couple times now. You were last down? Terrifying. The canyoneering community is filled with ideas of what is safe and what is not, but the fact remains that you are taking risks every time you step into a canyon. Sometimes you make good calls, sometimes you make bad calls. We all do our best and it's exceptionally easy to sit back and play armchair quarterback from behind the keyboard.

@chasingadventure8326

2 жыл бұрын

Yes there's always risk, but racing a storm is wreckless. After that experience, I'm not sure how you can simply write it off as one of the risks. A freak unexpected storm, sure, but not for a storm that you know is on its way.

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

@@chasingadventure8326 I probably didn’t use the best choice of words. We knew we had time, and this time we were right. But obviously the safest bet is stay out of the canyon if it’s going to rain.

@chasingadventure8326

2 жыл бұрын

@@JerryArizona no worries, I just know that a lot of people are getting into canyoneering via things like KZread and wanted to make sure that the extra level of consideration is in the conversation. I appreciate that the video addresses that aspect at the end.

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

@@chasingadventure8326 for sure. What this video also really doesn’t address is drainage area. For Keyhole, you can look up and see if there are clouds. For longer canyons, it can flash from a storm you never even see.

This makes me want to go visit a canyon in Utah. Nice work guys 🤟

is it one way in and back track? there's no different junction correct?

@JerryArizona

Жыл бұрын

You can go in a couple different spots. You can climb up further than we did. The 'normal route' is to go in where we did. You come up to a saddle and drop into the slot canyon. It opens up briefly before the first rappel, then you are committed to the lower, tighter section. You come out near the road, not far from where you went in. So it's basically a small loop.

I backpack and hike all the time and I love Zion, angels landing and subway are every bit as impressive at El Capitan but can be more dangerous. I’ve lived in Vegas 15 years and I’ve had rain hit so hard and fast once that as I’m driving up a 6 lane road in the NW of the city the water went from normal rain and jumped level with my bumper in seconds and within 30 water was just below the window on my mustang. Rain in the desert especially in Zion where flash floods are what formed the slots is a killer and kills people before they know what happened. We were always told going up there even if it’s blue sky there, if rain is within 100 miles it isn’t safe and hold off because it can change in seconds.

@JerryArizona

Жыл бұрын

Been in a slot canyon and didn't see a cloud in the sky for two days.....Completely dry on the way in. We hiked out and our dry wash was filled with 6~12" of muddy water. Turns out it snowed in Bryce (we were outside Page, AZ) and flooded without us knowing it. You can be in a slot and not see a cloud and still get into trouble. Keyhole has a relatively small drainage basin. But to your point, the storms out here are violent and can bring the rain like crazy. It's hard to explain to someone who doesn't live here.

How quickly/at what level of water does that get deadly?

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

All depends on how much rain is coming down and how saturated the ground is. I’m not an expert but it only took a few minutes with a pretty steady rain to start flowing. I imagine if it kept up for 10-20 more minutes like it did at its worst this time, it would be deadly to be inside. Luckily it only rained really hard for a couple minutes and the ground wasn’t saturated when it started. So I bet it didn’t get more than maybe a foot deep running on this day, if that.

I’m planning on doing the sabway at National park in a couple weeks ! I wonder what is a safe percentage of raining in the canyon before doing the hiking?

@JerryArizona

9 ай бұрын

I'm gonna start by saying don't take flash flood avoidance advice from someone on the internet who went into a slot canyon right when it started raining......I obviously have a higher threshold for risk than most. Some people say don't go in if it's higher than 0% chance of rain. It really depends on the individual and your risk tolerance. Assuming you are hiking the Subway bottom up, know that it's a fairly open canyon up to the actual subway part (which is very short up to the end of the bottom up section). Not to say there isn't a flash flood risk, but it's not a tight slot and there are areas you can scramble up to higher ground. My recommendation is to ask the rangers at the backcountry desk when you get your permit. They should be able to give you advice on the forecast and risks. If you get it the day before, realize conditions can change again by the next day. Don't rely just on their advice though. Look up a couple different weather forecasts (don't rely on one.) And look up at the sky to see if it's foreboding. (Obviously not the best way since you may not be able to see the entire watershed, especially if you're starting from the bottom.) If you're doing top down, there are multiple slotted sections where you wouldn't want to be in the event of a flash and keep in mind you need a harness, helmet and rope to get through to Keyhole Falls. I wish I could give definitive advice for you, but like I said, it really depends on the individual and the conditions the day you go. (Side note - Assuming you have a permit? They're tough to get.)

@JerryArizona

9 ай бұрын

Oh, and have a plan B in case it looks like it's going to rain. Something that doesn't have a risk of flashing. Angel's Landing up to the saddle (and even higher up onto West Rim Trail), Canyon Overlook, etc. It helps to make better decisions if you have more options.

@cprplaza6450

9 ай бұрын

@@JerryArizona I really appreciate your time to give a good advice! I got a permit to go down from top to bottom! We are excited to get this done with my friends! I’m trying to avoid to make that decision right on the spot! I’d like some input before going there and have the whether conditions been decided beforehand! Thanks

@cprplaza6450

9 ай бұрын

@@JerryArizona thanks for taking the time to respond! I appreciate it!!

You can have monsoon storms all the way to the end of September. Id suggest avoiding doing any canyon hiking during the latter part of summer from the end of July to September. Monsoon storms can develop right above you when it is completely blue sky minutes prior. Every year people die from these storms - mainly from flash floods and vehicles caught in flooded washes. Be aware and check the weather often - the chances of these storms popping up during the rainy summer season are always very high. If you're feeling the humidity, maybe hike another day.

This is why no matter how experienced a spelunker or rock climber you are you never ever climb through canyons climb mountains alone, because I heard a story of someone who got stuck in a canyon much like this one and he almost didn't make it out alive

Thinking about those boulders & tree trunks on the bottom of the canyon - they were pushed down there by the force of flood water 😳

Just a climber here so not a Canyoneer but wouldn’t the commands be on rappel off rappel?

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

You are correct and that's what I always say. No idea why I said 'belay' this trip. Probably focused more on getting the hell out of there.

was it some scenario similar where that guy got caught in a crevice like this and ended up having to hack off his limb to save himself? people do crazy things for thrills and fun lol

@JerryArizona

Жыл бұрын

I think he was solo canyoneering up by North Wash, Utah. Freak accident where the boulder just happened to fall while he was there, just happened to land on his arm.....That's why I carry a PLB.

How do you know when there’s risk for flash fooding do you just check the weather or what’s the best thing to do?

@JerryArizona

Жыл бұрын

We checked online. Multiple weather sites. Noaa is a pretty reliable one. And the back country desk informs you of current conditions when you pick up your permit. And finally, we looked up at the sky. We knew it was coming and it would have been wiser to bail. As a side note, looking up doesn't always help. This canyon has a relatively small drainage, but some are huge. It can rain and flash and you never see a cloud.

@Art-cq1zy

Жыл бұрын

@@JerryArizona what does a small drainage entail? Also if it can flood and you never see a cloud, can you even avoid that?

@JerryArizona

Жыл бұрын

You study the topgraphic map and just generally research the area you're hiking. I've been to Zion a bunch of times and learned this has a smaller drainage area. It can absolutely still flood and be fatal. My wife and I hiked Buckskin Gulch once. It has an enormous drainage. We went in Whitehouse down the Paria and it was completely dry. (This is by Page, AZ). Never saw a cloud. Two days later when we got back to the Paria confluence it had about 6" of freezing cold water. Apparently it snowed in Bryce maybe 30 miles away and ran down to where we were. We actually chose that route because Buckskin is a committing slot canyon whereas Whitehouse is mostly an open wash (except the last coupe miles.) I don't know how to really explain it. It's experience and research, really. But then again, my best advice I can give is don't take flash flood advice from the guy who went in a slot canyon when it was going to rain.....

Would that not be "On Rappel" not belay? I did not see you being belayed. I could be out of the 'Loop" started climbing in the seventies.

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

You’re absolutely right. I always say ‘on rappel’. No idea why I decided to say ‘on belay’ this time.

What I did right. Just watching this on KZread where safe and sound. ;-)

I literally cried with fear for that group!! Real tears! Y'all two are so brave, my heart was racing, begging you not to go in!!! 🤣

@JerryArizona

Жыл бұрын

Brave probably isn't the right description, but thank you. It was pretty terrifying. You can see me looking back at the exit. All I was thinking was that a wall of water would be coming at me at any second. The other group's description of what it was like to be in the deep slotted section when the rain was really coming down sounded even more terrifying. At the time, I saw nothing wrong with going into a short canyon that I knew, especially one with bailout points. It's easy to think "We drove all the way to Zion, we have to do SOMETHING today. I'm sure we can beat the storm." We didn't think that something like a twisted ankle or other mishap could happen. And we aren't the first group to fall for canyon fever either. After much reflection, what we SHOULD have done is sat this day out. Or at least when we learned others were in the canyon, we should have bailed before the first rappel and then waited for them at the bottom to make sure they got out. Going in could have gotten us killed. Jumping the other groups in the canyon only slowed them down and could have gotten them killed. Luckily, the rain let up and we all got out safely. I know that at the very least, I learned a lot from this experience. The canyons will be there another day. No need to take this level of risk.

well, i was once on a gletsjer in the middle of a thunder/lighning and hail, probably not the best idea either, but epic AF

@JerryArizona

Жыл бұрын

Mistakes can make good stories, if you live to tell them.

You guys did good. It would have been really dumb to go way back in there. If anyone says otherwise, remember they are the ones that die. Even SAR has no guarantees.

Great video.

So, on a day that predicted rain the " I know what I'm doing" came out. How many in the canyons, Everest, and all the rest of the I'M THE BEST are dead. Lost count myself, so what if the 12 were with you at the time? Which one panics and take you with them?

@JerryArizona

Жыл бұрын

No arguing with this. I’ve reflected on this trip a lot and learned from it. It’s far to easy to become complacent and think it’s been fine before, it’ll be fine this time too. What if we broke an ankle? What if we slowed the other groups just enough that they didn’t make it? Next time, I’ll just look for waterfalls from the road.

@tedsemonis7905

Жыл бұрын

@@JerryArizona ​ The canyons are a wonderful place to explore, you don't have to see them from the bottom.

As I was watching, I was just thinking, "No way!"

@JerryArizona

9 ай бұрын

That’s pretty much what I was thinking on about 319’ of that 320’ rappel

Great video, thank you for posting! One thing I’d recommend is avoiding jarring music choices like the one in the first minute of the video - Subtle music or no music would’ve fit the video way better and it kinda took me out of it. Otherwise fantastic though!

@JerryArizona

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, my canyoneering videos don't normally do well. So I just do what I want with the music. But I cringe when I hear that first song, especially. Always working to improve.

@theparkjunkie

Жыл бұрын

Well that’s just like… your opinion, man… 🤣

Awesome video 👍

Glad you didn't become Keyhole 8...that's crazy and super sketchy!

I have no idea why this would be considered “fun”.

Tragedy can occur when there is NO weather forecast...Little Wildhorse Canyon this year.

Whew. All these slot canyons are basically a death trap during thunderstorms. Thunderstorms could very well be like 50 miles away and then bam.. a wall of rushing water carving out canyons in a new york minute. Many people lose lives while trying to help so ethics vs self preservation is easy to talk about from behind the keyboard. Being prepared and trained for things like that is what separates veterans from those who lose lives tempting fate. I hope people learned from this scary event. Utah has been getting flash floods in zion this year so its extra wonky these days.

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

We went in fully aware that the canyon was carved by water....And even though it's the easiest canyon in Zion, it's also claimed the most lives. For Keyhole, you can see the clouds because the drainage is small. Given the lack of ground saturation, the doppler we'd been tracking, the knowledge from previous trips and the location of the clouds from the drainage, we felt confident we had time before descending into the lower section. I'm also fully aware that you're only right until you aren't. So if someone argues we were lucky versus prepared....well, it's tough to argue against it. I've been in places like Buckskin Gulch where the Whitehouse Fork flashed from a snowstorm in Bryce, maybe 40 miles away....We never saw a cloud in the sky for two days. Glad we cancelled Pine Creek this day. With it's huge drainage, I have no idea if it flashed or not, but I did not want to find out. Oddly enough, we did Imlay the next day and it wasn't full; almost in keeper mode, actually. Monsoons.....Definitely unpredictable.

Is this where they shot the 72hrs movie

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

I believe that was filmed around Hanksville, UT. This is Zion.

Awesome. ✌️👊

When your fixed to the rope, and your belayer controls your descent, or protects your accent, your “ on belay”. When the rope is stationary, and you control your descent, your “ on rappel”, or rappelling

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

I'll attribute my mistake to a strong urge to get the hell out of there.

@climbjt

2 жыл бұрын

@@JerryArizona I hear ya! You guys were on the edge. Don’t forget, weather over the horizon can kill you in the slots as well

@JerryArizona

2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely. That's why we switched up Pine Creek (huge drainage - you might not even see the clouds) for Keyhole (small drainage - we saw them coming) that day. Still, it's better to call it when in doubt. But then again, we could see the clouds and estimate the time, so we made a calculated risk and went in. Of course, sometimes, like this trip, you don't know if you made the right decision if things turn out well....

@Zabuzakashi

2 жыл бұрын

@@climbjt The 'back-up' of the person downrope from you is often a 'Fireman belay' - as such, many people check with the person down there by yelling "On Belay" or "On Fireman".

@NotEnoughKit

2 жыл бұрын

​@@Zabuzakashi If you are up top, sure, "Can you give me a firemans?" If you are below, "I've got you on a fireman's"... Being up top and saying "On Belay/On Fireman's" doesn't make any sense, unless the person saying it is giving a belay to someone else above, which isn't what is happening here... If this lingo is common practice in canyoneering, they are even more reckless than I had imagined. Improper communication kills.

Man it's one thing to run through it quick with two people but to bring a huge inexperienced group when rain is forecasted is just tempting fate.

@JerryArizona

Жыл бұрын

In retrospect, none of us should have been in there. We were all pushing it.

0:53 "Outrace this thunderstorm?" = famous last words

You are rappelling and when you start you say, "on-belay" then when you are disconnected from the rope you say, "off-belay". I think you need to study up on what those terms mean. If that canyon had flashed you would have never seen the bodies floating by; in fact if you stayed where you were and didn't already have a higher spot picked out you might have been part of the catastrophe.