Special thanks to Corbin Hosler for coming on and being such a gracious and awesome guest! Make sure to follow him online by following the links in the More Info box above :)

in my Karador, Ghost Chieftain deck I have really fallen in love with "Caustic Caterpillar"

@g33k74

4 жыл бұрын

Jakob Jensen don’t forget spore frog

In our playgroup, tutors are mostly used to look for solutions, not often for combo pieces. We even have one guy that only plays combo decks but almost never plays tutors because he finds it boring to always just grab the same thing and insta-win.

This deck tech should be updated it has tons of new parts. My karador deck has changed so much.

I have a Rafiq Eldrazi deck, and playing armageddon and reclamation was one of the first things i put into it. And Faith's Reward. :)

Woot, something to listen to at work in 12 hours.

Somehow missed this cast when it came out, but thanks to the best of '16, I came back to watch the whole thing. I have a Jarad deck that's just too slow and really kind of a one trick pony with Lord of Extinction being the big blowout. I'm convinced that I could easily convert that deck to work better with Karador at the helm, which would provide more variety and less linear games.

I play tutors in my Karador deck. But they're specifically creatures to the graveyard ones like buried alive. Love the deck btw.

So I know the discussion have both been done but would you guys be able to make a video discussing the pros and cons of making a Karador deck vs making a muldrotha deck

I'm having so much fun trying to finalize my build for karador, but it's so hard to pull cards out as opposed to putting cards in

I think it depends on how you use your tutors. If your searching up your infinite combos every time, yeah probably boring, I use them mostly to find answers to the board situation that's in front of me, in that way it feels more toolboxish and more dynamic.

Nice Future War Cult shirt :)

"This started as a Teneb deck." Me: Turning my Teneb deck into a Karador deck in 2023...😅

Tutors are a necessary part of EDH but in moderation, I personally run around 3 all around tutors per deck and maybe more if they are more specific. An example of this is Hoarding Dragon.

I got my Conspiracy 2 the day of launch! (yesterday)! That shipping was amazing

The mom and son thing as awesome

Another great topic, plenty could benefit from a re-tool to bring variety to my LGS vs. a 4-6 turn go infinite win from tutor.

Hey guys, can i somehow run this youtube playlist from old videos to the new ones instead of the default new-->old?

Speaking of awesome ramping creatures, Wood Elves can tutor for non-basic forests and Krosan Restorer is pretty cool due to the Threshold. You may want to run Qasali Pridemage as a way out against Torpor Orb.

awesome naked gun reference!!

Theproblem with a ton of self millk is that,while it's easy to bring creatures back, everything else is kind of aproblem. SInce he's only running 29 creatures, I thinkit's realy better to not have a lot of self mill.

Skip to 16:47 to start hearing about the actual deck

yo Brandon plays prereleases at my lgs, crazy to see him talked about in media

Naked Gun reference! I love it.

I'd definitely run wood elves. You can get forests with it, so you can grab your shocks and such if you want, helps with fixing, and comes in untapped. Wood elves is almost an auto-include in any green creature-based deck, but the reanimator theme of karador makes it even better. I'd put it in over farhaven in almost all situations, and certainly this one.

@MrCannibalMan

8 жыл бұрын

If you're leaning on your green sources, Yavimaya Dryad is also a fantastic card that can also grab shock lands/AB duals.

@Kestral287

7 жыл бұрын

Seconded. Wood Elves is infinitely better than Farhaven. Wood Elves can still find a Swamp once, a Plains twice, and a tri-colored land once in these colors. Add another Swamp and Plains if you have duals, and of course Urborg exists so it can tutor as many Swamps as you have Forests. They come in untapped and ready to use, so Wood Elves effectively costs less. It's just better in every respect.

everyone is all over the placd with the new queen marchesa maybe you guys could do a deck tech of sorts with her it would be really interesting

Where can I find this deck list it sounds fun and I'm new to edh

karador is my commander for my shadow born apostles deck, was gonna just make a goodstuff deck with a combo or two but it was a bit to much $$ so i filled up 1/3 of the deck with a 1.50 card, imm slowly buying the cards to make it a goodstuff combo deck tho, already upgraded it with the original dual lands, tho i think i wanna buying into a new modern deck since i just got done pimping out my dredge deck with Japanese foils, can't decide which to go for first

i believe tutors are a necessary evil in 100 card singleton. especially for certain types of effects that maybe don't really exist with functional reprints. i also would say the fewer colors in any given deck the more it probably would need tutors. i usually run 2-6 tutors.

My play group uses almost as many tutors as is possible. That being said, unless I'm in black, I try to avoid them because it tends to make me go for the same thing always, whereas with black tutors (typically), I can get whatever I want and change it up.

Yay another birthing pod deck. I play ghave pod and like this karador List too. Great work you guys

Joshs comment on hermit druid then the game knights where jimmy olayed it

I'm interested in meeting up at Card Kingdom, but I don't have twitter.

im surprised you guys never mentioned Bane of Progress.

What I dislike the most about the mulligan change is what you mentioned at 41:00. I had to change the curve in my decks and take put in more lands. The change feels like it is punishing me for wanting to play big flashy spells.

@nazgir5343

8 жыл бұрын

The change was to nerf combo decks. Partial mulligan makes combo decks just hold onto the key pieces of their strategy and mulligan the rest, while not giving as big an advantage to any other kind of deck.

@joshleekwai8895

8 жыл бұрын

Yeah - I think it was a necessary evil. There are upsides and downsides but overall Partial Paris was just too abusable.

I haven't played commander for a long time :(

have you guys done a mana base episode? I'd like to help out...

@joshleekwai8895

8 жыл бұрын

Episodes 39 & 40 are all about Mana Bases!

How do you loop Oblivion Stone with Sun Titan and Animate Dead?

So how does ur Tasigur deck looks?)

I'm a fan of tutors, but then I also consider myself a pretty serious spike. However, even when I build low power or 75% decks to play against other playgroups, I typically find myself including some sort of tutor package. They may be a bit slower than the high end choices, but having the ability to actually answer a game ending threat or to find the cards that actually show off what it is my deck is trying to do is a good thing, not a bad one. I think people get turned off when people tutor up combo pieces and win, feeling it makes the format more linear, but I think those same people often forget a well time tutor on their part (Such as Mystical Tutor) can find them the answer they need to said combo.

First off, I want to say I love that the deck has Woodland Bellower in it. Shouty Bear is a pet card of mine because it basically says "When Woodland Bellower enters the battlefield, put Eternal Witness into play." Best card in the deck. 10/10 Onto more serious discussion/suggestions, I tend to prefer Wood Elves over Farhaven Elf, mainly because it can get dual lands, Sapseep Forest and other non basic forests which I feel is a little better. Ideally I'd run both but if it's a choice between the two I'd take probably take Wood Elves. Another mana dork I think is really great for decks that use the graveyard is Millikin, I jammed it into Meren on a bit of a whim after I opened one in an Eternal Masters pack and I drew it in my opening hand after adding it and it really seemed to generate value for Meren and I imagine it'd do the same in Karador. Especially if you're playing stuff like Life From the Loam and Splendid Reclamation as well.

@Kestral287

7 жыл бұрын

Yes, more Woodland Bellower fans! I would never play any toolbox-based green/X deck without it. In my Meren deck it tutors ramp, artifact/enchantment hate, fogs, and /Eternal Witness/. That's absurdly strong, even before you consider that it's 7-8 power for six mana, spread across two bodies. That's pretty close to what happens when you cast a Grave Titan.

@benlevett2354

7 жыл бұрын

Like I say, Shouty Bear is possibly my favourite card from Origins. It really comes into it's own in Commander. It has so many really good targets in various colour combinations. Trigon Predator, Knights of the Reliquary, almost any non-legendary elf worth playing, Dauntless Escort Dryad Arbor (if you really want to), Giltspire Avenger, Kitchen Finks, Mwonvuli Beast Tracker. There are a lot more but as you say I really think it's a decent toolbox card that is decently costed for the body that comes attached to it.

Dredge does cost you a card in a sense - the one you would have drawn otherwise 😉.

Funnest, most fair tutor: Lim-Dúl's Vault

I like the 70% theory and definitely like the idea of not using tutors in commander, it's a casual format. In the more competitive games tutor away but just casual games I don't like it as well. If you don't tutor and the other people at your game are you can be just as behind as not ramping. But to each thier own.

I love Saffi combo's

My Mizzix deck RARELY loses. But i intentionally don't play it because its a consistent turn 6 win, 80% of the time, regardless of what occurs... I prefer my Prime Speaker Zegana deck. it follows the 75% rule. No infinites, Only 1 board wipe, a few counters. Completely fair in every way.

"Quasali" Pridemage * Eye Twitch*

Baleful Force is a Phyrexian Arena on both steroids and a stick. Expensive mana-wise, but perhaps worth considering.

@LURKEN999

7 жыл бұрын

Or Bloodgift demon.

@Kestral287

7 жыл бұрын

Also an option. I like Baleful because it draws about four times as many cards, but Baleful also costs a lot more mana. It's going to come down to what your ramp engine can support.

I'm only 6k kilometars away from pax :D

My issue with any deck that depends on the graveyard is that every precon deck until the last set had Bojuka Bog. In my group, at least, graveyards are highly unreliable.

@CAF-Esports-ROOK

7 жыл бұрын

this is why you have to play good magic and only dump what you're willing to lose, unless you win that turn by dumping everything. You can actually fight through several graveyard exiles if you're playing with the fact that graveyard hate exists in mind

@Kestral287

7 жыл бұрын

Yup. Our playgroup has two Meren decks. Mine can beat exiling effects like Bog without too much trouble (though Rest in Peace is still essentially an autolose under normal conditions). The other Meren player accepts that he automatically loses to me because there will come a turn where I'll find Bojuka Bog.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can still cast an overloaded Mizzium Mortars through a Geddock Teeg, right? If so, a Cyclonic Rift is also an answer.

@chunkytofu8697

8 жыл бұрын

I'm pretty sure that's how it works

@Kestral287

7 жыл бұрын

Correct. The CMC of an Overloaded spell is whatever is in the top-right corner of the card. This is also why you can't Overload a Cyc Rift under a Void Winnower or Brisela.

I used to have an infinite combo in my Karador deck, but it got boring, so I replaced it with Genesis Wave. Genesis Wave is a nuclear weapon in that deck because I go really hard into devotion to green. So I Genesis Wave for 30+ on average, then if Akroma's Memorial comes out from that, that's game. It does a lot of creature tutor with Yisan working with Thousand-Year Elixir, Magewright's Stone, Rings of Brighthearth, and Seedborn Muse. Eventually Yisan starts bringing out the legendary eldrazi. I put Ayli in the deck because sometimes you just have to sack a Kozilek.

@CAF-Esports-ROOK

7 жыл бұрын

i too use genesis wave! i have found it's actually a lot easier in a black heavy deck, because of liliana of the dark realms' ultimate.

@700NitroXpress

7 жыл бұрын

I guess if you're running her and Doubling Season it could be. In Meren, I do Tempt with Discovery to grab Urborg, Cabal Coffers, Deserted Temple, and some other land, then that's a lot of black mana right there. But Karador has a lot of green devotion and only Liliana Vess. The new Selvala may be the best mana producing elf ever printed and she needs some more recognition. Use her with Serra Avatar, Omnath, or Malignus and just add all the mana you could ever want. Genesis Wave for 17 on turn 5.

@Kestral287

7 жыл бұрын

People actually take your Tempts? That's insane. I would never take a Tempt against a Green/Black deck.

@700NitroXpress

7 жыл бұрын

Surprisingly yes, they do. I usually get 3 lands off of it on average, but 4 lands happens every now and then. You have to act like a salesman, sell them on the fact that they can get any land they want and it comes in untapped unless otherwise stated on the card. Then once one person buys into it, the rest follow.

@Kestral287

7 жыл бұрын

That is insane. My playgroup buys into that Tempt relatively often because the player who uses it most doesn't have anything really valuable to get with it; it's just some Temples or checklands or something. But when the Omnath player or the Golgari player casts it, nobody is that insane to just hand them a billion mana.

This deck is awesome but so expensive:(

Commenting early (still haven't finished the whole episode)... the mulligan rule part has spurred me to write a question here. Are people sitting down with a a group asking Vancover or Pairs mulligan rules before they start playing? That's what all the groups in my area are doing (even rando's). We agree before hands are drawn what method to use. I haven't seen a change in deck styles for this reason like you all discussed. What is everyone else experiencing?

@joshleekwai8895

8 жыл бұрын

We assume the default rules. Having said that, if someone asked to do Partial Paris before a game I would probably be fine with it.

@DarinNiday

8 жыл бұрын

this is how my LGS does it. the more experienced players all want vnc/official rules, but for the randos and super casual games, we let the less experienced players chime in and just dont mulligan unless we get fucked proper. we also typically confer around poison counters pregame (15 unless someone is running dedicated poison, to avoid blightsteel cheese), again, we're more interested in a fun game than a spikey one

@VadeSatana

7 жыл бұрын

This is pretty close to how we do, infect isn't a big concern around here, and I think most people have their "Fun" decks and a few "competitive" decks for when its called for..

40:54 Since that rule change our play group at my local as vanished. That rule suck so hard!

@bengardner8639

8 жыл бұрын

It's not like you have to follow the rule though

@Chosen1_of.the.NONexistent_God

8 жыл бұрын

Ben Gardner Yes, but it's the default, if one player absolutely want to play with the new rule we kinda have to. Even if with my friends we play with the old rule (we don't all live in the same city), that doesn't change that nobody come to my local every week.

@SolivagantCraig

8 жыл бұрын

Whole lot of people didn't know how to play a game of magic without stacking their hand with combo pieces? When Paris was the default, our groups (at lgs and home games) didn't use partial Paris. Another lgs across town did Paris, and they got tons more regular players when that rule went away.

@Kestral287

7 жыл бұрын

In my experience with a playgroup full of Paris, players don't usually use it to stack combos. They use it to make sure they avoid getting mana screwed and so that they can get some decent early-game action.

Has anyone considered adding Eternal Witness to the deck?

@AUGOM0919

6 жыл бұрын

i do.. i run a karatoolbox deck..

Commander cube?

ok well try this kami of false hope it's one white Mana prevent all combat damage this turn

I need jimmy’s shirt

do gisa and geralf?

and I will be adding a spore frog soon to

@LoftySkinner

6 жыл бұрын

I remember having 25 of those things lol, never thought I'd hear anyone mention them ever again

I'm always sad when I someone swaps his Teneb deck for a Karador. One reason why a lot of Teneb decks are lackluster is the fact that people build it like a Karador deck. These generals are vastly different and they should be built differently. Karador wants to fill his graveyard quickly with a lot of creatures. You still pay for the creatures, so you have to curve them out. You have access to a wide arrays of creatures from your graveyard, so a "toolbox" approach is efficient. Teneb on the other hand cheats the mana cost, but his reanimation effect is not reliable since he has to deal combat damage with enough mana to activate his ability. You probably won't be able to do it every turn unless you are crushing your opponents already. The approach of a few high impact, high CMC creatures with a lot of utility is preferred. Also, he's a DRAGON (I mean, come on). My Teneb deck for reference: tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-01-16-teneb-edh/

Alert! Kitten at 6:12!

"wrath of god every turn"..... glad he's not in my playgroup. "Playing Magic" includes USING the creatures you play

don't forget about fog frogs white cousin kami of the false hope

kambal and teeg are great vs mizzex

Yes. If you're trying to make a 75% Karrador deck, Survival of the fittest is way too good. That card is absurd in Karrador. You talked about reasons you don't like to play tutors in Commander, yet Survival of the fittest is arguably better than any other tutor in the game when paired with karrador. Demonic and vampiric tutor both get you elesh norn. Survival of the fittest gets you Elesh Norn and a shriekmaw in your graveyard to cast for 1 and a black every turn. Sure, demonic tutor can get you any card, but in such a creature heavy deck, survival is way better the majority of the time because most of your utility comes from you creatures

@Kestral287

7 жыл бұрын

I'd take away the "arguably" Survival is only weaker in decks that are reliant on a noncreature component to their removal package or their combo, and that's not true of Karador.

Sounds like Saffi should be left out of this deck if we are building based off of the 75% rule.

1:07:45 Spike Weaver everyday

If Black can’t play tutors, then Blue can’t play counterspells, then green can’t play ramp, and red can’t play direct damage. This is what it sounds like to me, each colour does a thing well, taking away what a colour can do just because you don’t like it is bull.

can you guys just get money back on your own order by using affiliate link

I still don't get how the EDH committee came to the decision of "abolishing" the partial Paris mulligan... they claimed it didn't make any significant differences to the Vancouver mulligan. Wtf? Perhaps for people playing with completely optimised mana bases etc., but EDH being the budget format it is for most players, what about the rest of us? Don't these couple of guys have any consideration for the community? 😡 We pretty much don't give a shit and still use the partial Paris mulligan. Just makes for more fun games when everyone can reduce the likelihood of getting mana screwed - as you said in the beginning, it's always most fun when everyone actually gets to play Magic 😉.

@Kestral287

7 жыл бұрын

Lots of folks just play with the Paris. Our group does too; we tried one event with Vancouver and everybody hated it. Two-thirds of the way through we decided to go back to Paris.

looking back at it now as an experienced player, that cedh take was BAD

Ugh, another reason that missing PAX is so bad......

Guys. I need to sleep. Please why.

@adambillen5164

8 жыл бұрын

Also I'll be at PAX and a meet up would awesome!

He has a G/W recursion deck and you tell him to add in fog frog, but didn't mentioning Kami of false hope...for shame. As far as tutors in Commander, I think they're the keys that start the engines. They're perfect ways to add reliable mechanics to a deck. They're a part of the format just as board wipes are. Once you embrace what the format is overall, you'll start building your decks better, and having more interesting, and fair game sessions. I love teaching people how to lose like a winner.

I understand promoting other things in videos but the first 17min had nothing to do with a deck tech..that could have been another video

"Karador is one of the most powerful generals in EDH". Unfortunately this is completely wrong. I play a Karador deck, but it is always outclassed by Meren and that really sucks. Putting stuff into play for free always beats having to pay to put a creature into play from the graveyard each turn

@lukebyer2614

8 жыл бұрын

Yeah if you only think of karador as pure grave recursion then yes it's weaker then meren but the advantage that karador has over meren is that you don't have the restriction with experience counters you can bring back any creature just you have to pay the mana for it. Also karador's colors allows you to play with white and there are some crazy strong white creatures that can abuse karador's effect.

@lightspeedasH

8 жыл бұрын

awww what a sad story XD

@jasonkikel8038

8 жыл бұрын

Agreed with @Luke Byer. It also largely depends on the level of how competitive your meta is. If people are playing strictly casual (e.g., low tutor count, low tolerance for infinite combos, etc) then yes, perhaps Meren may be higher value in that context. Alternatively, if people are playing on the more competitive end of the spectrum, Karador is incredible. The addition of white opens the door to tons of hatebears and infinite combo pieces. Add an abundance of tutors to the mix and you have a very fast, reliable engine.

@Kestral287

7 жыл бұрын

Yup. As a Meren player and as a player whose meta includes a competitive-level Karador deck, Karador's ceiling is /far/ higher. I've been killed on turn four by the Karador deck. I've never done anything close to that with Meren, nor do I have the card pool to even try. Golgari is extremely short on ways to just instantly win the game, especially with ways that actually interact with Meren herself. Karador has approximately a billion of them. In terms of their effects, you can argue which is stronger. Karador requires you to pay for the creature, but you can do it in your main phase. Meren gets it for free, assuming you've lost enough creatures (although getting the creature to hand can be exploited with dredge or cycling creatures), but she only gets it in the end phase. The last restriction actually hurts a lot. Sure, I can casually tutor whatever card I want for free with Rune-Scarred Demon or Sidisi or just E-Wit getting back a tutor... but unless that card is instant (and thus not one of my win conditions), I can't use it until next turn. Karador's spending mana for efficiency with a lot of these cards, especially the more combo-oriented ones. Frankly in terms of effects, the actual strongest one is Sheoldred, but she's saddled by being monoblack, seven mana, and drawing all the hate. Ultimately the decks depend on how you play them. As a value-based deck, I would 100% agree that Meren is stronger. White adds a few good value cards and some additional removal to that style of deck, but a value deck really wants to cast a bunch of cards every turn and Karador eating your mana hurts for that. And a value-based Meren deck is one of the strongest ways you can play "fair" Magic as a lot of people define it (no infinites, no instant kills, that sort of thing). But a well-tuned competitive Karador deck can be far faster and more efficient than even the best Meren deck.

XD my karador works at a better rate than this one. Interesting twist on the persist. I prefer using toolbox method with mine

First I guess?

Commander is a much better game without tutors.

@Iliketacos091

7 жыл бұрын

Don't state that like it's a fact. It comes down to what you're trying to do with the format.

@JuQmadrid

7 жыл бұрын

In my experience it kinda is a fact. Tutors are against the spirit of singleton, what's the point of being limited to one copy of each card in a 99 cards deck if you can access the combo cards in every game? Also, tutors make the game slow as hell and force players to use many of them and counter tutors to search oponents decks and exile them.

@Iliketacos091

7 жыл бұрын

It's literally not a fact. It's an opinion. Unless there is some number you can put on EVERY PLAYER'S enjoyment of the format and do the math. I personally play a Boonweaver Giant Karador combo deck and have a blast with it, so there's at least me who enjoys tutors in EDH.

@JuQmadrid

7 жыл бұрын

So what if it is my opinion? do I haveto write a disclaimer every time I state my opinion? Of course you enjoy using tutors, everyone likes to use tutors, I like to use tutors myself. What I say is that the overall impact is the game is negative because they slow down the game and make the games repetitive. Tutors are amazing in a normal 60 card deck with up to 4 copies of each card, but they break the singleton format. When we used to play with tutors in my game group most of the time ofthe game was watching payers as they searched through their library pondering how every and each card in their deck would impact the game. Also decks tended to be something like 20 tutors, 20 cards that win the game, 20 responses and 40 lands. Turns run much fasters since we stopped using tutors. And decks and games are more diverse.

@peterklein3354

7 жыл бұрын

I agree - tutors somehow make little sense in a singleton format. Playing lot o tutors and Zur as commander just doesn't feel right. I'm okay with tutors who look for a special card type though.

Like you’re NOT running Deranged Hermit? Wtf are you thinking? That’s THE best self mill in the format especially for this list. Lmk if you wanna learn how to play Karador bruh

really remove tutors? so remove "return from graveyard cards too", they are tutors too, and the tutors for lands. BTW during the podcast.....i dont like tutors and blah blah bla.... wich is your best card in your favourite deck beloved guest? a tutor!! but i dont play 2 cards combo, because i dont need cheap 2 card combos with graveyard tactics...... because i play the most basic and powerful tutor tactic wich makes MTg what it is, Graveyard play. Be critic and dont whine about tutors when return from gravyard is a more opresive and always the same OLD tactic, remember wizards made a complete mechanic to counter this a bit and didnt work "EXILE".

@TehCommunistDuck

8 жыл бұрын

Tutors =/= reanimators.

@sambowman7362

8 жыл бұрын

I think the commentor means that, in Karador decks, reanimators function very similarly to tutors as you want to pitch most of your library into your graveyard very quickly.

@natanoj16

8 жыл бұрын

There is a difference between the way you use them. A land fetch doesn't set up a specific combo. And you can have a favorite card without using it xD

@caioitalianopires7091

8 жыл бұрын

@thecommieduck I'll second that. It's not really a tutor if you have to dump it to your graveyard first. Even cards like Buried Alive is just half a tutor.

@lokone303

8 жыл бұрын

There is no difference when a tutor let you put one or multiple cards, into in a place were you can take it from very easy, like "top of my libray" or "My graveyard". let tutors tutor and zomibes "to zombie"