Well I have to say I'm absolutely disgusted and don't know how you can even bare to touch it or be in the same room as it for that matter. I seriously hope you wore gloves... and a mask... when you bought a copy of the Guardian. 😂😂👍

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

😂👍 Full Haz-mat suit, face-mask the works. It was the only way I could live with myself... 😂😂 I think we may be chatting about this soon, eh?? 👍👍

@shaunhansard8211

5 жыл бұрын

It’s Test Tuesday! Shouldn’t you be posting a video! 😂😂 You both make great, informative videos! Keep it up guys! They are appreciated!

@GosforthHandyman

5 жыл бұрын

Just out of a matter of interest, sometimes my timber merchant has Trupan MDF in stock, made in Chile *I think*. Even for their cheapo standard version, it says "Complies with formaldehyde emission requirements for MDF in CPA-ECC-2011, ANSI 208.2 2016 and CCR 93120.2 (CARB Composite Wood ATCM Phase II)."... which is presumably beyond EU requirements. Honestly, the whole article is sensationalist bollocks but massively damaging to joinery businesses everywhere.

@FuzzyScaredyCat

5 жыл бұрын

@@GosforthHandyman Good job it wasn't the daily mail he was reading with your Chilean MDF, coming over here, taking our MDF's jobs...

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

@@GosforthHandyman Yep, CARB phase 2 is a much more stringent set of requirements - basically their 'target value' is 0.05 mg/m3, whereas the UK HSE FAQ says that formaldehyde is present naturally at levels of ~0.03 mg/m3 🤷‍♂️

Aren't newspapers made from wood pulp? Have you tried surrounding your meter with copies of the Guardian? I'm sure the press would be interested in the results.

@rimmersbryggeri

5 жыл бұрын

Its made from cellulose wood pulp. Ligninie and other by products are taken out sou I would guess the formaldehyde content of newspaper is negligible. Butt still you have a point.

@filmbluff99

5 жыл бұрын

A freshly opened newspaper often gives off an odour from the ink that is used. This means that there are significant volatile organic compounds in the air in the vicinity of the newspaper. Is The Guardian toxic? 😉

@Lilmiket1000

5 жыл бұрын

@@filmbluff99 I like that smell in small doses lol

@leslieaustin151

2 жыл бұрын

@@filmbluff99 I think that all newspapers (and most other so-called news mediums) are toxic... Les

When I was a teenager, Dad had some sheep. Somehow, they got footrot, and the farm was quarantined. Dad had two choices. Killing and burning didn't appeal, so we trimmed their hooves and bathed them regularly in a formaldehyde solution, The sheep recovered, quarantine was lifted.

Thanks for this Peter. Always been vaguely aware of the supposed dangers in working with MDF but you've now brought me up to speed. Excellent presentation, put into lay person terms with some sensible and practical conclusions and good reference documents too. Thanks again 👍

It sparked my attention when you recommended a cyanate in preference to urea-formaldehyde. It may not release any formaldehyde, but one has to balance that against the release of cyanates, which can be pretty nasty in very small quantities. I know they are a serious safety issue in foam factories, where I occasionally work. Now I know MDI is considered the safest of the cyanates, and I don't know the numbers, but if we are going to look at toxicity it would be well to have comparative figures on the relevant hazardous materials and not just assume that if it is free from urea and VOCs, it must be OK.

I have to ask... But how could furniture made from MDF ever be considered "High-End"? Oak can be dug up from Peat Bogs after thousands of years. MDF won't last overnight in a good rainstorm.

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Marketing. 👍

@jothain

3 жыл бұрын

Well there's the dimensional accuracy which will stay, not warp etc and for standard modern houses do you really want your interior to last thousands of years? Though yeah for really old housing it's bit different.

@redx11x

3 жыл бұрын

So true

@andrewmason4004

2 жыл бұрын

Fine art (paintings) are made from ground up bits of plant and rock. So I think it's also about what you do with the raw material, not just what it is.

Great video, two remarks to add: the HCOH sensor used is also sensitive towards other components eg Methanol. So basically worst case wood emits methanol and mdf emits formaldehyde.. and second: formaldehyde is proven not suspected carcinogenic and causes cancer in the upper regions of the nose. It also sensitizes causing asthma and skin problems. OSHA requires monitoring if twa is about 0.5ppm and the limit is 0.75ppm. So basically not allowed to work if >0.75ppm. All these technicalities mean that formaldehyde should be taken very seriously regardless of its source. In poor ventilated rooms formaldehyde may build up over time. Ideally homes have sufficient mechanical or natural ventilation.

Good topic and good information. I've been asked about this by clients and always found it difficult to answer. Appreciate the video.

Just about to buy my first Medite MR MDF sheets for my campervan conversion. Great videos and superbly presented. Thank you :)

I fitted some MDF skirting boards last year and they required a considerable amount of sanding. I must say, I was wary at the time about the dust given off and clearly any toxic fumes would have been many many times higher than one might expect when the skirting boards had been fitted and painted over. It would be interesting to know just how high the levels were during such work.

Good video. Well balanced. There are a couple of things I haven't seen mentioned in the article and you might consider to look at later. 1) Do they air out the room/home/apartment regularly or do they keep it closed up. If they keep it closed up it would be closer to your workshop was when you checked it as you first came in. 2) Were all the materials new MDF or wood? The paint had to be new. If the MDF and wood give off the formaldehyde gas, it should lessen over time. You might want to compare some old well aged wood vs new wood and likewise some new MDF vs some you've had lying around for a year or so to see if the air quality is affected by time. The same should go for paint as well. Thanks again for a good video.

Interesting story. I used to work in a factory making MDF and Particleboard, the formaldehyde is part of the resin used to bind the wood chips and fibres under heat and pressure.

@CBEACH

8 ай бұрын

Hello, So do you think that MDF is ok?

So interesting. Thanks for all the info, Peter. Scott

Thanks for the details Peter, a great level headed review of the Formaldehyde situation. I know that you tested the pine with the meter but I would have liked to have seen a similar test with MDF. Maybe there's a Test Tuesday in there somewhere, comparing various MDF types!

@paulround8501

3 жыл бұрын

I don't know, Peter's whole workshop is filled with MDF, it's all over the place. I suspect the meter would have been going crazy if there was a real problem with MDF.

A really well researched and thoughtful video Peter, and a lot of common sense excellent 👍

The issue with MDF (and particle-board) is the adhesive used to bond it all together. The basis of such adhesives has often been "Formaldehyde" which has proven to irritate the eyes, nose and throat plus cause asthma. Formaldehyde is also a known carcinogen. After Hurricane Katrina when many were housed in quickly assembled caravans (or similar) made from particle-board there was a health concern about the fumes. The fumes of the adhesive will dissipate over time. It has always been good advice to employ breathing masks when machining MDF not only because of the fine dust of the wood (once saw-dust & wood chips) but also of the glue. When once employed manufacturing MDF this was always made with low Formaldehyde content for the Japanese market who were particularly fussy.

Peter, it would be interesting to see the results whilst you were machining MDF in the workshop, both for gas and dust. People should also be aware that many foamed products, such as insulation and carpet underlay, may release gases over time as they decompose. These items can be much more extensive in a domestic situation than timber or MDF.

Extremely interesting. thanks for creating this video!

Good, balanced approach to this type of problem in your video. In the US, there's been lots of hype to super insulate and super seal older houses as a way to help save energy costs. Fine, but. . . those houses were meant to breathe. Once you super seal you are containing many substances (chemical/mold/naturally occurring substances incl Radon) that could be unhealthy if concentrations get too high. So, one thing I wondered was whether the house in question had such super seal/insulation and was all closed up. Like your workshop over the weekend. In general the air outside a house is healthier than the air inside. I've never wanted a super insulated house. Never, that is, until the recent "Polar Vortex" event in my region. Everything got strangely cold even with the furnace running full blast. Too bad that newspapers, most of which are dying, have become less and less likely to research what they print, even the best ones.

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks! And great point about the ‘super-sealed’ aspect; hadn’t thought of that. I know the area well and the type of houses are all old, but heavily ‘modernised’ with double-glazing, mega-insulation etc... 👍👍

@bighands69

5 жыл бұрын

K.B. Woodworker I have a super insulated house that stays comfortable even when the heating is off. It also has a mechanical air circulation system that takes the air from inside and puts it outside and takes fresh air inside. I have had several air monitor reports done to make sure levels are within acceptable levels. I have training in chemical pathology so I can use the air reports and make sense of them. The problem is that the majority of people that make comments or write about these issues are very ignorant and are prone to make such ignorance part of their propeganda.

@k.b.woodworker3250

5 жыл бұрын

@@bighands69 Sounds like yours was done right. I'm well aware that people can have such a mechanical air circulation system installed. But that's usually not the case. Many people here in the U.S. just do it piecemeal. There's lots of PR about sealing the house here, but I can't remember any PR about a mechanical air circ. system. I've known people who have had the various remedies done, but nary a one who had the air circ done. Having professionals do the whole job at once is beyond the budget of most average people. Most people don't have your training, and not a clue about the air quality problem. BTW, not propaganda, just concern about what I see happening. I'm not against someone doing this if they can find the budget for it, keeping an eye on the air quality problem.

Great video. Thank you for doing the research 👏👏

Hey Peter. I wish I would have known that MR MDFs like Medite, Extira, and Medex are not only moisture resistant, but they are "super refined". Because the SR aspect is crucial for a quality product in my opinion. Now that I know this, I absolutely love using these products and will use them every chance I get from now on.

Brilliant video Peter, keep up the good work

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

I used a lot of mdf 20 years ago when I came to Canada, I developed a rash on the back of my head that stayed around for quite a while. I got away from using mdf on the whole. The rash is gone along with most of my hair! 😂 Seriously it is a versatile product , but the weight of it used in cabinets is so great compared to plywood. I prefer birch ply but I know it's twice the price and you can't build doors out of it. Another great video Peter. Happy New Year from 🇨🇦

Perfectly timed again Peter :)

Like you, I work with Medite MDF a fair bit. My concern has never been with the Formaldehyde content but with the dust. I know of two 'wood' workers who have suffered dust trigger cancers: one fatal, the other dealt with before it was too late but still had life changing effects. I strongly recommend serious dust control such as you have shown in previous videos. Thought I was pretty good at it but today have been having a workshop clean up and found nasty collections of dust in dark little corners. Maybe I'm not as clean as I thought I was and need to think again.

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks Graham. I agree entirely; whatever we think of the Guardian story, there's no harm in being shaken up a little to improve dust collection and monitoring. If it hadn't been for this story, I would never had considered a formaldehyde or TVOC meter 👍

Fascinating Peter thank you. More pond life journalists... proud to say I've never purchased a newspaper in my life.

Hi Peter thank you for your responce we did paint the MDF with MDF primer then eggshell paint but all waterbased. I have heard that if you use zinnerbin to prim it then their would be no smell from the MDF. But I'm thinking if I would have to sand back to re paint. I might be better of getting the safer MDF but I know its going to be awkward removing some of the shelfs that have been glued inside the fitted wardrobe. But I'm so put off by the formaldehyde smell. I think we have no choice but to buy the safer MDF and start again.

A few years ago I painted our living room with Crown emulsion and after a few months there was a smell of gas, we called out the gas board and there was no leak and we found that the smell was coming from the paint on the walls. The smell eventually disappeared a few months later. Another interesting video Peter 👍🥃🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Have to say, I was a little taken aback by the TVOC levels on Monday morning - though it soon disappeared 👍👍

Another fantastic video Pete 👍

Peter thank you for making this intelligent and well researched video. Much better researched than the Guardian article which was up to its usual miserably low standard. The readers comments to the article were a joy to behold and a great demonstration of why democracies are dangerous! The most surprising fact to me was that the female customer claimed to be a scientist!

You are spot on about the TVOC from the paint being the culprit! Paint is loaded with volatile organic compounds that off-gas while the paint is drying. To be fair, in toxicology you can have what is called a synergistic effect where having two compounds mix is much much stronger than one alone (it's actually super common), think of that first drag on a cigarette if you haven't smoked in awhile after a few good stiff drinks and you'll get the idea. Formaldehyde and a compound that is called DMF(dimethylformamide) is very similar to formaldehyde and is used in some paint formulations. If the couple had a lot of both in the room my guess is they would have headaches like mad, nausea and vomiting if it's real bad. That's all signs of getting a weak toxic dose, cancer comes later :)

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks! Yes, AC paints in particular are known for off-gassing formaldehyde during the curing phase. Of course, we don’t know what paints were used in this case - or at least, nobody’s saying. 🤷‍♂️👍

Brilliant video Peter thanks for this , I always wear a mask while sanding, sawing etc but I might invest in some better ventilation in my underground workshop.

nice Video Peter. Just ordered of those gadgets as I am interested to see what my wooden floored, wooden kitchen worktopped, wood staircased, Timber doored, fitted mdf alcove units and wardrobed house yields. Or do you think I should just curl up now.

One might wonder what how the levels of freshly cut wood compares to freshly cut mdf, instead of comparing it to the minimum standard? As a sensitive asthmatic I have often been unable to tolerate certain furniture assemblies, due to excessive off-gassing, they usually contained some sort of mdf or osb, along with other furniture products, ike rubber bladders, (i.e. air mattress w/mdf mattress support) processed leather, various finishing compounds. Never new exactly what specific caused my respritory distress, but solid wood products didn't seem to bother me.

some useful information there Peter, thanks

This is quite informative. Thank you for pointing out this article. I probably wouldn't normally notice it - even though I'm pro natural wood and plywood and anti all other kinds of artificial/engineered wood. Having said that, my home is full of MDF and particleboard furniture - there's probably the odd piece of real wood furniture but that's just it. I'd be careful with any air quality monitoring device if used for professional purposes. I'd make doubly sure it's been calibrated and approved by a government approved laboratory. The reason I mention this is that it's all well and good reading the display readings and expecting to be in safe/unsafe air quality environment based on them, but what is this device actually measuring? and what do these readings mean exactly? How must the measurements be done, in what conditions etc.? For the formaldehyde reading, what is being measured is quite unambiguous, so the only question is whether the device is calibrated and used correctly. For VOC readings, I'd want a clear definition of what the device measures, from its spec sheet, and a confirmation from a laboratory. As far as the reported case is concerned, it's hard to make any definite conclusions from the article. It's simply impossible to make an educated guess and isolate the possible irritant from the information given. It's probably nearly impossible to replicate the conditions now. Was it the MDF used? Was it the paint and solvents used or other substances such as glues, putties etc.? Could it be something unrelated to the furniture installed by the company mentioned? Who knows - it's impossible to draw a conclusion. The only thing that must be certain is this: all modern homes should be aerated every day (assuming there's no valid reason not to so, such as an industrial accident or forest fire). The reason is, modern homes are constructed with all sorts of man-made materials and most of them, being composites containing organic compounds, emit all kinds of VOCs. Besides, there is the normal build-up of VOCs, other gases and dust that are a direct by-product of our normal daily home activities - not to mention germs etc.

Great content Peter. Quite the eye opener. I will definitely be purchasing an air quality monitor. What are your thoughts on the one you purchased and which would you recommend. You insight will ultimately help me purchase the right one.

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks! I’ve only had the new one for a few days so I’ve no idea about its long-term prospects. It depends wether you’re more concerned about the air quality, or the formaldehyde/VOC levels. The newer one does HCOH and TVOC levels as well as having rechargeable batteries, so more easily mobile. Both do temps and RH levels, btw. But for general woodworking in a workshop I think the smaller meter is a better option as it meters down to 0.3 microns, whereas the other only reads to 2.5 microns. Both are similar prices when bought direct. 👍👍

Great video Peter, great info!

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks Nick! 👍👍

in our quest for warmer homes and as a result sealing them, it's little wonder we get a build up of fumes etc with little ventilation. Just to add I used to work in a factory making kids play furniture, basically scaled down furniture, made from MDF, for a few years and was never really aware of this issue, and yet I am still on this planet.

Fantastic video Peter, great knowledge and potential warning to all the carpenters out there. I wonder if you will get any response from the parties involved.

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks Tomasz! If I do get any response I’ll be sure to follow it up 👍👍

Great little workshop, Couple of points I think are important a, Your demo of natural wood created a false positive as the boxing causes reduced natural airflow circulation... The other thing is formaldehyde whilst is natural to all organic matter its also "permanently volatile" tthus other chemicals especially paints and finishes (and you rightly point out its most likly this that was the issue in the article) Finally even some big MDF suppliers are on occasion unsure of their source product with multinational companies "rebranding" thier purchases as their own thus you can innodvertantly end up with some asian or other MDF with many undesirable chemicals involved in the glue process. Once again though Pete a Great Job!

Interesting, in my country (China),some medias and commercial organizations sell “formaldehyde phobia” to the public and they succeed. Now when people choosing furnitures or materials for interior finish they always want to choose formaldehyde free products which is ridiculously impossible. And they obsess with anti-formaldehyde products such as some kind of spray or something like that.

I'd be interested to see what the air quality is at a warehouse that sells MDF.

What about the fibre aspect of MDF rather than just the off-gassing? How dangerous are the particles expelled when machining?

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

The ‘fine dust’ aspect of MDF is well documented - see the HSE FAQ in the description. 👍👍

Thanks Peter for a well presented article that will dispel the miths surrounding MDF and Formaldehyde. I do feel for the couple in the article though. I unfortunately caught a mouthful of MDF dust which stuck in my throat. The next day I developed a very nasty cough which has persisted now for 18 months, accompanied by thick buttons of glue like phlegm. The NHS have tried all sorts of treatment to no avail, fortunately it is not cancerous or affected my lungs, just bloody annoying and inconvenient !!

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Sorry to hear that John, and as I hope it's clear fro the video, I'm not making light of the dangers of dust while woodworking, as all wood dust is hazardous. But I do feel the newspaper article is pointing the finger at the wrong guy when it comes to formaldehyde, and in particular fumes from a fitted furniture installation. 👍

@johnmoncrieff3034

5 жыл бұрын

@@10MinuteWorkshop Not at all Peter It is a very well balanced presentation. I only gave a factual account of my recent experience which is as I said mainly inconvenient rather than serious. I stopped buying the Guardian & other papers over 40 years ago after they made fauls allegations about my family.

Fascinating. I wonder about plywood with all the glue involved. Almost seems like living is hazardous to living. Thanks Peter!

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Yep - plywood is specifically mentioned in the HSQ FAQ mentioned in the vid. All depends on the glues ('binders') used. 👍

Increased airtightness is making indoor air quality a big issue, so this is really interesting, thank you. Please can you clarify what the levels were when you first returned to the workshop after the weekend?

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Yes, I'm sure you're right. I wasn't recording when I first arrived, but it was around 0.18 for HCHO and 2.4 for TVOC. These fell very quickly when the door was opened. 👍

I'm glad I came across this video as I'm in a dilema. We had a loft conversion done early this year and the builders made a built in wardrobe for us from MDF. We left it for two months as we noticed the off gassing smell that is formaldehyde. But the smell never seemed to go. So we painted over it with MDF primer then eggshell 2 coats of each. It was fine during the summer months. But now it has started smelling again of formaldehyde. Now we don't know what to do our options are perhaps to sand the paint off this will cause obviously more exposure to the wood dust or we will have to get the lot stripped out. Not sure what we would replace it with. Any help would be much appreciated.

@10MinuteWorkshop

Жыл бұрын

Hi Georgina. The thrust of this video really is to show that - provided a reputable brand of MDF is used - then any off-gassing is almost certainly from the painting process, and not from the MDF. While formaldehyde is used as a binder in some MDF manufacture, the process of painting it seals this in, so there shouldn’t be any off-gassing, unless cut edges are left exposed somewhere. Painted MDF is a staple of the fitted furniture industry, and thousands of sheets of the product fitted every week across the country, without any issue. Some people are especially sensitive to chemical odours, of course, and it could be the case that you and your wardrobes aren’t compatible; it’s certainly unusual though, for an odour to go away, then return, and as you say sanding the paint off would likely make the problem worse, if your wardrobes were built from an off-brand MDF. It’s a tough one to deal with, and I’m afraid I don’t have a definitive answer for you, I’m sorry.

@georginacollymore4474

Жыл бұрын

@@10MinuteWorkshop Hi Peter thank you for your responce we did paint the MDF with MDF primer then eggshell paint but all waterbased. I have heard that if you use zinnerbin to prim it then their would be no smell from the MDF. But I'm thinking if I would have to sand back to re paint. I might be better of getting the safer MDF but I know its going to be awkward removing some of the shelfs that have been glued inside the fitted wardrobe. But I'm so put off by the formaldehyde smell. I think we have no choice but to buy the safer MDF and start again.

@georginacollymore4474

Жыл бұрын

Hi Peter, I would like my carpenter to buy Medite MDF like you recommended but I have now ground out that there is Medite clear MDF that is formaldehyde free but not available in many places. Is this the one you recommend or is any Medite MDF bound sufficient?

Very interesting video. Thanks for sharing. I'll follow the links and read the article and the reports. What I understood from other publications on the emission of non-moisture-resistant MDF (so the MDF with formaldehyde in it) is, that when you paint that MDF, the emission of MDF lowers (or even stops, I do not remember) because the formaldehyde cannot go through the layers of paint, or much slower. That makes sense, in a way. On the other hand, how long (months years) can an MDF board emit formaldehyde? I mean when there is an XXX amount of formaldehyde in it, and the emission is X per day, it should stop after 111 days (when X is for example from 2 to 9) Or not?

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Yes, I don't know how long a board - or a piece of solid timber - can emit formaldehyde, but the levels are very low, compared with say, dried Shiitake mushrooms, or green onions and pears 🤷‍♂️

well timed Peter, I just had this piece show up on my news feed and immediately thought of you. I hope my customers recognise the G (and most other newspapers) as the Merchants of Chaos that they are. Meanwhile I can be armed with some truth thanks in no small part to your research. Can't thank you enough Peter.

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Cheers Michael. Always worth having the link to the HSE FAQ re MDF on your phone. 👍

I’ve been using MDF for 25 years; no problem. Great paint finish but heavy to move. I like it.

Very interesting and well presented. Agree with you as an installer, probably a very good thing to run the before and after test with documentation. It certainly can not hurt. I looked at these monitors on Ali Express and they are not so expensive, I will buy one for my shop.

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks. If you’re buying for your shop just bear in mind that they don’t monitor air quality below pm2.5 (ie 2.5 microns) whereas the other one I have (links in the video description) monitors to 0.3 microns, but doesn’t do HCHO or TVOC levels. 👍

@neilyeag

5 жыл бұрын

@@10MinuteWorkshop Yes, I saw that, but truthfully they are not so expensive to get two devices. Thanks again.

Valspar had a problem a while back, the colour matching recipe of some colours was wrong and the paint reacted with some surfaces and gave off fumes.

In the USA we see a lot of Chinese MDF and (at one time) some very toxic drywall (paper faced gypsum sheet, not sure what it might be called in UK). The drywall had high bisulfates and when damp the bisulfates reacted, creating sulfamic acid. It was recalled, and in many cases, removed from new homes.

Great bit of research here Peter. Thanks for posting. I wonder if the ‘real wood’ section results would have been so high if you hadn’t exposed so much of the inner fibres. What about plywood though because the layers are stuck together with glue? Best wishes.

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks Christian. Yes, the binders used in plywood are the same or very similar to those used in MDF. 👍👍

I have very sensitive eyes. And yes, (unpainted) MDF boards give me itchy eyes. I have the same issue with chipboard so I only get solid wood furniture.

@paulround8501

3 жыл бұрын

That is probably to do with the resin used as binder, some resins give me a similar reaction. Do you get the same problem with the moisture resistant type, they use different binder resin for that.

@SamDecrock

3 жыл бұрын

@@paulround8501 the resin could indeed be the culprit. I’m avoiding all non solid wood at the moment, so I don’t know what type of resin that might be the cause.

Great video Peter 👍🏻😷

Hey Peter great vid. I recently finished making audio absorbers for my home studio and the front panels are made of MDF. 16 of them. They cover most the wall in the room.The front and the sides were painted with waterbased paint. 2 coats. There are small holes we made across the panels so we get better sound absorption. Those were not painted. Too many of them and hard to get the paint in there :D Anyhow now that the project is finished the whole room smells funny. Like new furniture. Wood and glue kinda smell. I am worried it might be the MDF offgassing, no? I am keeping the windows open all the time but all this "going down the formaldehyde internet rabbit-hole"gave me a scare. Maybe I should get rid of the MDF panels altogether??? I remember in 2011 I bought an IKEA workdesk and had to keep the windows fully open for two weeks for the smell to evaporate. What do you think?

@10MinuteWorkshop

2 жыл бұрын

Was it regular or MR MDF? And was it from a known manufacturer (Medite, Caber, Kronospan, Finsa) or something cheap & cheerful from a DIY shed? If it's reglar MDF from an uncertain source, then it's possible that it's could be of-gassing, but virtually every board manufactured within the EU has been essentially formaldehyde free for a long, long time. What type of paint was it - water-based or oil-based?

@learnalickaday7272

2 жыл бұрын

@@10MinuteWorkshop It's from a certified dealer. I called they said the do not mess around with this stuff. It's all strict EU regulations. We used acrylic water based colour.

@CBEACH

8 ай бұрын

How is it now, how did it work out?

Modern homes are tightly sealed, and most people won't be opening the doors and windows periodically in the middle of winter (or worse, summer in warmer climates). This allows accumulation; however, the culprits are probably the paint, as you say. I played around with an air quality meter at my last home and was amazed at how high the numbers went when the meter was placed near the walls. The radiant heat from the exterior during summer seemed to make things 10 times worse. This was in an older apartment that had clearly been painted multiple times with what I suspect was economy paint - the only thing that could've made it worse would have been modern, tightly-sealed construction.

Just when people think they have got it clear in their mind you confuse them with facts and logic!! Good video Peter, nothing like a clear demonstration to show that sometimes people worry too much. As far as I know, people have lived in forests for thousands of years with no ill effect.

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Haha, hadn't thought of the forest angle, nice one!

Dear Peter, thank you very much for this informative piece! If I have to use MDf, I like to use Valchromat. Imho a much better version of any MDF I've used so far. It is manufactured in Portugal, so no worries there. I am much more afraid of particle boards with a Melamine coating. Especially cheap manufactures produce furniture you can intensly smell in the stores. Regards, Etna.

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks! Valchromat is classified as an E1 board; good, but not the best in terms of formaldehyde emission, just FYI.

@Etna.

5 жыл бұрын

Oh, didn't notice that. Thanks again!

Interesting topic Peter. I often hear that just about anything "new" is off-gassing chemicals. This also reminds me of the "Chinese dry wall formaldehyde scare of the 1990s. I think a big issue is what to do with all the information. Hmmm, my new router table is a giant slab of...Phenolic. By the way, did you know that bananas are somewhat radioactive? OK I'm off to find some eyedrops.

I went to a warehouse where they were storing mdf and chipboard sheets. I couldn't stand their even for a second. There was something in the air that caused my eyes to burn. I have visited other mdf storage places and have found similar eye burning sensation.

@10MinuteWorkshop

4 жыл бұрын

No idea I'm sorry - nothing I've ever experienced. Could be dust-related?? 🤷‍♂️

I wonder if the particles in question are heavier or lighter than air? Only asking as I wonder if the 20mm wood worm holes in your bench might have affected the results?

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Apparently VOCs have a tendency to be heavier than air, so I guess the result may be making the raw timber look better than it actually is, but I can't believe it's a significant difference at the scale we're talking about. 👍

Interesting. Many thanks.

As you suspect, the Guardian article was almost certainly womping on about VOCs from paint. The real issue with working with MDF is that cutting it up makes sub-micron fibril dust -typically much finer than real wood, save processed oak- and that escapes a lot of collection and gets breathed in. Lungs are awful at moving out fibres. So now you've got carcinogenic-emitting fibres stuck in your lungs. I'm not going to suggest that MDF is Asbestos 2.0 but it's not worth the risk of not using suitable PPE. That five minutes a day is worth a lower risk of dying from mesothelioma.

@anthonyromano8565

4 жыл бұрын

The only known cause of mesothelioma. is Asbestos.

@OliWarner

4 жыл бұрын

@@anthonyromano8565 Nonsense. Mesothelioma can and does occur anywhere there is a mesothelial layer (most of the body). Asbestos is not the only cause. Even in the lungs.

@anthonyromano8565

4 жыл бұрын

@@OliWarner As a contractor we take a test on Asbestos. If there is another known cause name it.

@anthonyromano8565

4 жыл бұрын

@@OliWarner Its also a rare form of cancer so mdf dust will just cause run of the mill cancer.

@OliWarner

4 жыл бұрын

@@anthonyromano8565 Only 80% of mesothelioma is caused by asbestos these days. Again, were talking about a cancer of a tissue. Any carcinogen can cause it. Only asbestos can cause asbestosis. Maybe that's what you're thinking of.

Peter, I'd like to see what sorrounding the meter with curfed MDF would do? You've picqued my curiosity.

@southropify

5 жыл бұрын

Yes it was a loss to miss this test so that we might compare and contrast. Thanks though Peter for a balanced discussion.

Try Lakeland paints at Heysham or Lancaster for Ecologically friendly paints. In the Uk always ask for MSD sheets for any paint or adhesives before buying to ensure you will not buy somthing you may find harmful to you.

Did you try the enclosure of your monitor experiment with similarly cut mdf?

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

No, not yet. I do have a day job... 👍👍

@tonyharris5015

5 жыл бұрын

@@10MinuteWorkshop Peter, when you do get to it, I would be interested in the reading from the meter outdoors and another one outdoors while locked away in a plastic box. My take on the high rate experienced with the real wood is two fold. One is how many ppm over what volume of air and the other is related to home wine making. When wanting to "oak" the wine many of us use chips or spirals of oak as it increases the surface area for expression of the flavors. I saw your wood was cut similarly and would probably increase the formaldehyde levels.

Have you ever monitored the room during the sanding of MDF for toxcitity? I wouldn't cut or sand MDF without wearing a resporator.

@10MinuteWorkshop

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, as a matter of course - that's why I know my dust extraction is effective and I don't need to use a respirator. Plus I only use MRMDF, which is a slightly different animal. 👍

Hey Peter! You have gotten me interested in MR-MDF. Finding this stuff in the USA is like finding a unicorn at the end of a rainbow. I do have a few questions: 1) Are you familiar with "Fire resistant MDF" vis a vis MR MDF? Also Axeminster has a MFT made out of HDF (High density fiberboard). It seems as if HDF. I was curious about its properties vis a vis MDF as well. Please keep up all the good work on your channel!

@10MinuteWorkshop

Жыл бұрын

Hi Mark. Yes, Flame Retardant MDF is a pretty standard product, generally available in 30 and 60 minute classifications (FD30/FD60). It's generally dyed with a pink tinge vs green with MR; dyed are for easy visual identification, they don't affect the performance of the board. Flame retardancy is generally a requirement in public spaces, so most manufacturers will offer a board that complies; there's information on the Medite FR boards here - mdfosb.com/en/products/medite-mdf/flame-retardant-mdf And HDF is a standard board, but used in more specialist applications where you need a denser board; the downside is weight, with HDF coming in at 50-100% more then MDF, it's not a board I've ever had to use. HTH P

A bit of an eye opener when Natural wood tips the scale... Teaching granny here. Newspapers write stories to sell papers. I pick and choose what I read and the news I watch. Need I say more??

Hi Peter, great vid. Be interested to see what OSB gives off.

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Never use it I’m afraid 🤷‍♂️

I would guess that the California standards were based on a volume of air greater than the space around your meter. If the wood was left to gas into your workshop. the concentration of chemicals would be greatly diluted. You do make a great point in that even benign wood will give off those gases. An interesting experiment would be to repeat the test with a more controlled volume of air and include some other materials such as MDF and MR MDF. Thanks for the interesting video.

Thanks for the video. I read the Guardian article and I can't judge it's validity. After reading a lot of stuff are they sure it wasn't the paint that was the problem?

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

That’s my thinking too - and everyone I’ve discussed this with. 🤷‍♂️👍

Really interesting video Peter, and thanks for the links to some cracking resources. The link to the US video posted by another viewer shows quite the sensationalist propound a we're up against. But we can only hope that - at least some - of our customers are rational human beings that can see the reality behind these stories.

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks!👍

I wonder how much formaldehyde the paper emitted from The Guardian

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

I did a quick test of that for my Patreon supporters. 👍👍

Great video, Peter. Are you using any sort of air filter in the workshop?

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

I have an air scrubber, but principally rely on at-the-tool extraction; better to not let it get into the air in the first place. 👍👍

Great video. I am also suspect as to the relative risk of these various compounds compared to our typical real-world exposure. I wonder how the MDF numbers were calculated... you may wish to try the same test you did with the natural wood using MDF, because you are comparing the air quality of a whole room (diluted) to a farm more enclosed space (less diluted) to a lab calculation (for which we do not know at what distance, space or dilution they ran their ppm for). A quick follow-up vid with the same test side by side (one after the other) with wood vs MDF (and maybe other materials?) might be interesting to see.

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks! It wasn't really a test as such with the redwood, more to show how readily the 'acceptable levels' of HCHO could be exceeded by a material (timber) that most people think as environmentally friendly and sustainable. 👍🤷‍♂️

In the 70s, GF and I married, had a house built, and had a family, in Canberra. Canberra gets a little chilly, and we were on bottled gas. A bottle lasted, I think, a week. There were some businesses offering to insulate homes, by pumping some foam stuff into the walls. we had one around, he did his thing, and coincidentally, we went on holiday to estern Australia for a few months. That might be when we went to Coral Bay for a couple of weeks. We returned home, and found our house much warmer, and our gas consumption dropped to about one bottle a year.. The gas supplier thought we must have switched to electricity. Time passed, I got a jb in Melbourn and we moved on, in due course we sold the house. Then there was some fuss and bother about foam insulation and formaldehyde and the fumes irritating people's throats and lungs, and words about cancer. We had no problems, perhaps leaving the house vacant cleared any fumes, perhaps we were more tolerant than most, perhaps we were just lucky, perhaps ou supplier used a better product.

Soon as I saw the video notification, I knew it would be about this.

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

👍👍 You’d have known a couple of hours ago if you follow me on Instagram or Twitter... 🤔👍👍

Just happened across this video..!! and although very informative it did make me smile… we sit around fire pits, barbecue’s wood stoves, sit in steaming hot saunas loving the fresh smell of whatever toasted wood is in there , we have radioactive granite worktops and we smear some fairly unsavoury chemicals on our bodies to keep the U.V. Rays at bay …?? I mean “ REALLY” I do my best to mitigate dust when working and I’m an avid fan of P.P.E. But maybe we should worry more about the tiny pieces of tungsten carbide flying around the workshop and the nano meter size particles of wood created when we burn through a tough cut.!!! OR NOT….!!!! Great video as usual….😁

Hi Peter, please could you explain what the monitors are that you show at 8:11? Or if you've covered it in a previous video, point me in the right direction? Thanks! :-)

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Hi Andrew. Yes, I'll be doing a video about the difference between the two types shortly.The ones you're referring to I bought early last year as I wanted to keep an eye on the air quality generally, but specifically when I was starting spraying. They feature in a few of last years videos starting at around video #191 as I get into the spraying. Long story short, I choked the one I had whilst spraying, so bought another, then recently resurrected the original by changing the sensor (video out tomorrow about that).They're simple, basic AQMs, they display all the usual Temp & Relative Humidity, plus the (US standard) 'PM2.5, PM10' levels. There's also a slightly hidden second screen that displays just the PM levels down to 0.3 microns, which is much more useful for us in a workshop. I've been a little reluctant to recommend them since my podcast partner and youtube pal Andy Mac had his one die after 8 months or so - no spraying involved; whilst they're cheap enough (£36-ish) you don't really want to be replacing them every year, but now I've discovered you can just change the sensor (about £15) I'm much happier to have them back on my list of recommended products. As always, links tho items used and featured in this (and every) video are listed in the video description, or at the channel website. Basic Air quality monitor £35 - bit.ly/Air_monitor Website - bit.ly/stuff_I_use

@AndrewBiddleUK

5 жыл бұрын

Fantastic, thank you. So they are particulate only? I'm particularly interested in VOC monitoring, so looks like the handheld monitor is the main one for me, but for the relatively low cost of the other one, might just get them both! 👍 Will go back and dig out the painting videos, and watch out for the sensor replacement video shortly. Thank you!!

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

@@AndrewBiddleUK Yes, simple particulate, Temp & RH monitors, no TVOC or HCHO - you need the handheld type for that. But I agree, for the money they're very much a 'why not' 👍

Interesting video Peter, what’s the difference in the two meters you have, and which would you recommend for use in a home workshop. Thanks 👍

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks Richard. It depends wether you’re more concerned about the air quality, or the formaldehyde/VOC levels. The newer one does HCOH and TVOC levels as well as having rechargeable batteries, so more easily mobile. Both do temps and RH levels, btw. But for general woodworking in a workshop I think the smaller meter is a better option as it meters down to 0.3 microns, whereas the other only reads to 2.5 microns. Both are similar prices when bought direct. 👍👍

@richarddunn504

5 жыл бұрын

Peter Millard, appreciate the response, I agree lower microns the better 👍. when I click the link for the other air quality meter via your PPE gear page it goes to eBay, but shows a meter that does PM2.5 is that not the same as the one you used in the video, I.e. not 0.3 microns? Thanks

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

@@richarddunn504Thanks Richard; it's the same one as I have - it says PM2.5 in the title, but shows it going down to 0.3 in the photos.👍

@richarddunn504

5 жыл бұрын

Peter Millard Thank you, just need to wait to be back in stock then😀 Last question, do you know if there is a way to test these, a benchmark to validate numbers are broadly accurate? appreciate your time. 👍

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

@@richarddunn504 No, sorry; I have two and they display slightly different reading, though certainly in the 'ball-park' together. I trend to treat them as 'relative' values to be honest, not absolute. 👍

There are a lot of difficult words to pronounce in this video and you have done well to nail them. I think as a professional jointer you have a good reason to worry about the negative article which could have brought to the business as well as your own health. I probably won’t be bother to read that article myself but as far as I understand after your short experiment, the trick to maintain a low level of exposure is simple good ventilation. For me, I am more concern what the cigarettes do to me than the MDF !

Good morning Peter, it is great idea to underscore problem of toxicity of materials. Formaldehyd is volative solvent which is included in glues nad resin to stabilize them and evaporate during "after use"process. It is kind of alcohol. What will happend when You add to 96% alkohol boiling water and you will do this in small closed room ? As you show at technical card, it is almost everywhere, but question is how much? I did not read this articele, I am guesing the tone of this article is like almost everything in newspaper(current newspappers should became just wood pulp again asap). We call it ecoterroism in my country. There are trees that includes in their tissue more dangerous metals that we can imagine like lead, chromium, Mn, etc. I am pretty neutral and trying to be rational when using post wood product. I like your vlog. Take care.

Interesting video Peter. If I cut or sand MDF, my skin burns, I break out in rashes. It takes several days to go away. The pain is horrible. After watching your video, I need to be specific on the where the MDF is made. Buy the good stuff and see what happens. Maybe I'm just allergic to that stuff.

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Is this regular MDF or MR? And yes, I can heartily recommend Medite - great quality board 👍👍

@hyland1984

5 жыл бұрын

@@10MinuteWorkshop regular MDF mate. Bought from a main wood supplier. I gotta look into Medite because, generally most furniture these days is made using MDF. And I can't continue using it with. It's weird because I don't get a reaction with plywood or OSB. I really appreciate you doing this video and opening my mind. Thanks mate.

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

@@hyland1984 Yeah, I recommend giving Medite MR a try - I'm asthmatic and don't have these issues when using Medite MR MDF 👍

I am new to MDF if you are using it for a workbench do you need to seal it? Does it constantly give off fumes more so than any other wood? Thank you

@10MinuteWorkshop

4 жыл бұрын

No, MDF doesn't constantly give off fumes; when you cut it, you can smell it - just like any other wood, but no more than that. If you have any concerns wrt formaldehyde, use MR (Moisture Resistant) MDF which typically doesn't use formaldehyde in the binder. In reality though, you'll have more exposure to formaldehyde in a cheap far Eastern shirt, or shampoo, then you'll get from a sheet of main-brand MDF (Medite, Kronospan) bought from a reliable source. Sealing MDF on a workbench has the benefit of making it easier to keep clean, and can reduce friction to make it easier to shove stuff around. HTH P 👍

Hi Peter. Very interesting! Slightly off topic but still on topic! I purchased the same air quality monitor as you. I switched it off over the Xmas break, came back 3 weeks later and it no longer works!? I know you had issues with yours and so did Andy, right? Temperature and humidity still work though. Did you get yours fixed? Cheers Nic

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

HI Nic. Yes, mine died after a heavy painting session, but I revived it with a new sensor - video out on Fridayt. 👍AQM basic Sensor replacement - bit.ly/AQM_sensor -

@nicharvey7211

5 жыл бұрын

@@10MinuteWorkshop thanks Peter

Thanks for the interesting article - very thought provoking. Unfortunately there is little doubt that working with MDF on a regular basis will dramatically increase the chance of a number of cancers and other respiratory problems. Formaldehyde is only a part of this risk. The worst issue,by far, is dust ingestion. Airbourne release of the organic content when storing is never going to be a problem, relatively speaking. This becomes so much worse when using boards of dubious (cheap) manufacture. The only answer is good respiratory protection and then general air filtration.

@10MinuteWorkshop

4 жыл бұрын

Absolutely; all wood dust is hazardous - pointing the finger of blame at MDF (as this article does) does nobody any favours. 👍

A good reason to make sure you have product liability insurance as well as public liability insurance. But a few quid spend on an air quality metre could be a a good investment so long as you record the results with customer verification

This reminds me of the time I used Crown 'Breath Easy' paint because I have asthma and have difficulty breathing with some paints. Even a couple days after the paint had dried I was having trouble sleeping and had really bad headaches, but only in the room that we used the Breath Easy paint. In the rooms with the generic cheap paint I was fine. Since then I've just been using regular paint and haven't had an issue! After reading the article (with two adblocks running just in case lol), I'm left wondering what the actual story is, surely if the MDF was sealed and painted, then the emissions from it would be next to nothing, so it would have to be the paint. But if I've learned anything, it's don't believe anything in newspapers, doesn't matter if they align with your political views or not, especially when the first thing in the article is a photo of the couple with their 'compo face' on 😂

I came across a primer which CLAIMED to contain all the harmful 'exhalations' from MDF - can't remember who made it but it was VERY expensive. I wonder what your meter would read if you kept it in a new car - the interior 'out-gasses' from the plastics, fabric and carpet (new-car smell) for a long time. I've heard that the lovely smell of fresh-cut pine is actually quite dangerous for you on continued exposure ( high VOCs ? ) And what about finishing with Danish / Tung oil... Oh God, all the things I like are SO hazardous !

I guess doing lines of MDF dust and shots of paint thinner are gone now huh,i agree with you as somebody may have tried to cut corners using an industrial sealer with high HVCs ,OACs and ABCs (LOL),that being a work site has plenty of time to dry and clear of these things but i think if its a Reno,well you wont just have it in the built in cabinets ,it can be in the trim,flooring (MFG),doors ,finishes and i think we know the benefits of water based products , i dont know about the UK but here in North America there a little more costly then the old alternatives ,and i have done the new plastic flooring (water resistant and Quote" can be taken up cleaned and but back down (never happen people break the tabs off to often ,but you want a smell try cutting that to fit ,interesting to see how you make out with the news paper ,the days of good reporting are gone they lack integrity

@10MinuteWorkshop

5 жыл бұрын

Haha, certainly at my age, Syd, lol! There's lots more to this story than has been reported, I'm sure, but we only have what's been reported, so far. 🤷‍♂️👍

@Mrfreezeee1

5 жыл бұрын

@@10MinuteWorkshop sent you a pick of my frosty front yard Peter on instagram new at the phone photos and messages on instagram ...lol no body will be with a warm drink today

I wonder how the sheet material alternatives compare, like birch ply for example?

@10MinuteWorkshop

4 жыл бұрын

Yes, indeed. No idea how the binders in eg Birch Ply compared, let alone the material itself. Maybe there’s a follow-on video in that... 🤔😬👍

THANK YOU for this video. So, what about a standard document frame? They are almost all MDF. Is it dangerous to have MDF frames hanging all over the house?

@10MinuteWorkshop

3 жыл бұрын

No, almost certainly not.

@briane.travers9162

3 жыл бұрын

@@10MinuteWorkshop Thank you Peter!

I have been searching locally for some MR MDF Medite but cant find any close to me. Is there any other makes you would recommend ?

@10MinuteWorkshop

3 жыл бұрын

Hi Graham. Medite, Kronospan and Caber are all solid brands, 👍

Thank You for your video on MDF. I seldom use MDF because of the nature of what I make.

The Guardian.......why let the facts get in the way of a good story!

Hi Peter I would like my carpenter to buy the Medite brand of MDF but I have noticed that there is a Medite clear formaldehyde free bourd. I was wondering is this the one we should be buying if not do you know if the one you are recommending has a particular code name or number?

@10MinuteWorkshop

Жыл бұрын

Hi Georgina. There are links in the video description to the Medite data sheet for MRMDF that has the spec and reference numbers attached. I wouldn’t pay a premium for ‘formaldehyde free’ personally, as the levels of formaldehyde in an MR MDF board only comes from the timber used in the board ie to my knowledge, there’s no added formaldehyde. 👍