"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"

@RJ-ie8cc

4 ай бұрын

don’t agree with all of their ideas, but love rush ✌️

@odavis1364

4 ай бұрын

The philosophers that predated Jordan Petersen…. Rush

@theshushu7940

4 ай бұрын

That doesn't mean that's your choice though does it. It's just your mind going "oh yea i seem to be going in this direction so guess i'll make my choice to go this direction." You get it? If you understand light it all makes more sense, we're literally only seeing and experiencing the past.

@alterego157

4 ай бұрын

@@theshushu7940 "That doesn't mean that's your choice though does it." It does. Because choice by definition means the power to select A or B, or XYZ. If you have the power, the only other remaining variable is the will. If you chose the path A, means you had the power to do so, and it was your will to do so.

@Knight766

4 ай бұрын

@@alterego157 False. You didn't create or have any control over the framework in which so called "decisions" emerge. This is evident in people who are intoxicated, mentally impaired, brain damaged or under general anesthetic.

I have always felt as though reality is not one or the other, but rather a mixture of both determinism and free will. I love how he essentially explained it as "The further out into the future you look, the more free will you see, and the closer things get the more deterministic they become."

@PhialSubstance

4 ай бұрын

I see it more like one of those story books where you read a chapter then it says something like "if you open the door go to page 12, if you run away go to page 47". We have free will in the moment, but all of the possibilities are already written. It's like how a video game can have multiple endings depending on player choice. That's how I respond when people say "if you believe in predeterminism why do you look before crossing the road?". Because free will is both real _and_ non-existent. It's the illusion of choice.

@martinarooney228

4 ай бұрын

Without God we cannot see anything

@theshushu7940

4 ай бұрын

Free will doesn't exist. Only free experience

@blumousey

4 ай бұрын

​@@theshushu7940if true, then you can never ethically justify punishing someone for their actions, or holding them to account for anything.

@theshushu7940

4 ай бұрын

@@blumousey Exactly. You might think you're holding someone accountable but it was always going to happen regardless of what you think you decide. Your experiences good or bad are just that. We must have the illusion of free will for the experience to be authentic. Even what I write is no decision of my own, I made a mistake and it wiped out my whole message, that was not coincidence either. Sorry but the other point is that holding someone accountable is part of the illusion and will happen or not regardless of what you think about the situation.

When he starts with “the universe is not deterministic, there isn’t any dispute about that”, how am I supposed to take the rest seriously? I see people dispute that claim all the time.

@plotofland2928

Ай бұрын

Of course the universe is deterministic lol, anything else implies magic somehow magically outside a the cause and effect chain.

I took this to heart. Woke up, got up and stubbed my bloody toe on the furniture. So much for that theory!!

@petersc1000

4 ай бұрын

Well if you had just cleaned your room.....

@niguel4438

4 ай бұрын

@@petersc1000 🤣👍

In the most fundamental extreme it can be best put that we do not posses our minds but it possesses us and we are lead by whatever informs the mind. If therefore we claim to be conscious, that is to be aware and the watcher of our minds, we will be careful enough to plant the right programs that has the better chances of contending with the unmapped territory of the unknown future with courage and security to manifest potentials and possibilities in actuality…this then is participating in moving the society forward and upwards Jacobs ladder. Thank you Jordan Peterson.

@Sorenthaz

4 ай бұрын

Yep that fits in with other teachings that the mind, or ego - the thing we build up over our life experiences to interface with the world around us, is essentially a false self, but it is a part of what makes us human beings. Strip away the mind and the body and the soul - or simply "being" - is still there. And that is what observes the thinking, observes the body's movements and interactions and experiences. And if we can tap into that deeper truer sense of self, and align our choices more with it, then we stop caring so much about outcomes and uncertainties because we are secure in that which is connected to everything, and we gain this deeper knowing that everything that happens to us is meant to build us up and deepen our union with creation and existence. Obviously in Christianity this would be thanks to the Holy Spirit, aka God's Spirit, which He puts in us to erase all obstacles (and thus the mind and its machinations serve as illusory obstacles) between us and Him upon accepting Christ as our savior and king. But I suppose if one wants to avoid that rabbit hole, it's that one learns how to better coexist and unify with all that is.

@64bluegrass

4 ай бұрын

We are not our “minds?” Most of human history saw the word “mind” as a verb as in “minding the store.” Only after the Enlightenment did the word “mind” become a noun replacing the word “soul.” A great book is The Meaning of Mind by Thomas Szasz. I highly recommend it.

@5thMilitia

4 ай бұрын

​@@64bluegrass We are pur brain

@DIPLOMATCENTER

4 ай бұрын

@@64bluegrass Thank you 😊, I’m addicted to books about the mind because of my journey to revolutionize the mind of African youths so we come out of dependence to creativity. I hope you’ll be able to engage in a discuss because I will get the pdf tonight if it’s available👑

@64bluegrass

4 ай бұрын

@@5thMilitia Well, consider this: if I say I’ve “lost my mind,” would that mean I’ve lost my brain? Mind is a metaphor, there is no “mind,” only persons.

Loving your voice in the world. You inspired me (and I'm sure many tens of thousands more, at least) to be a better person in an ethical way and contribute to the world... much love and respect xx

@petehoward8494

3 ай бұрын

Yes, JP can inspire you and make you think, at the same time.

@me1ody69

2 ай бұрын

Lmao this has to be a joke

@insanetubegain

Ай бұрын

I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.

Events are naturally probabilistic. We say events are deterministic when its probability to occur is 1. Past events are deterministic events. Future events are probibilistic with its probability ranging from 0 to 1. Some of future events depend on the choice of those who can choose. Humen always choose to make them happy. Choosing what to act now for afterlife is the most important choice in our life. Does afterlife exist? NDE indicate that afterlife does exist. Hence the probability of afterlife experience is not zero. When I applied scientific method what to act now regarding afterlife, it suggests me strongly that I have to choose to act now as if there will be afterlife. I trust scientific method much more then my belief.

@nova_steric1749

16 күн бұрын

They are "probabilistic" because we're not in control of all the variables that we need in order to predict the future. Statistic is a mathematical approximation of reality. It's a man-made way of looking at things. It's not reality itself and you cannot derive laws from it.

@BertoKinawa

16 күн бұрын

@@nova_steric1749 But statistical methods has shown its accuracy in predicting what will happen such as weather, quick count in general election, incoming hurricane, etc. Yes statistical methods can be trusted.

As always, you are brilliant Dr. Peterson, but, it is the seeing of you and your bride together that is the real treat for me. Y’all are adorable. Some say adoration ought be reserved for Christ alone. To them I say: Well when a couple, their relationship itself aims at embodying The Logos, how could they NOT be adorable? May God grant you many many many years!!! ✝️☦️✝️

@Doug-tp1jp

4 ай бұрын

I was fortunate enough to have a "meet & greet" with both of them. It's so obvious that they love each other and that he deeply respects her.

@gregorywitcher5618

4 ай бұрын

@@Doug-tp1jp I want to respond with a Napoleon Dynamite huffing “Lucky…” .gif, but, alas, I cannot.

@jesipohl6717

3 ай бұрын

​@@gregorywitcher5618 that actor hates Jordan Peterson

@gregorywitcher5618

3 ай бұрын

@@jesipohl6717 does this look like the face that gives a flip? Hell to the Naw…

@insanetubegain

Ай бұрын

I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.

You absolutely Chushed it! Best answer Ever!

@insanetubegain

Ай бұрын

I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.

@epicboiee6176

19 күн бұрын

​​​​​@@insanetubegain For long such realities are questioned, where prespective and it's popularity are present within aggregation and of prevalence in instances it's no wonder the prominance such realities hold in our lives. But contrary to your point, ive found an inference we can make within the bible. The bible relies on the fundamental that is context to infer authenticity. Now as the bible says, there mentions that the fact that God never lies and that he's just. As seen in Genesis 18, it tells a time where God was planning to dedtroy the city of Sodom, but then bargained with Abraham to then spare them if 10 righteous people are indeed there, and that absence free will within all holds such great prominece as to be in complete contradictory contrast, de-justifying God's actions, and every pain, suffering, scream, torture, happiness that has ever occured within history. With that reality in mind it's seems that correlation between his omniscience, and our decisions isnt constricted to a single outcome, that he sees the outcome of our every choices and that we indeed are free beings, with free choices.

The dude is a precious diamond. Protect him at all costs. Society needs more people like him. I could understand (although i don't agree with) someone that feels absolutely unconcerned about what he has to say. But when people attack him, ever single time, they have dark political objectives under their sleeves.

@michaelwright8896

4 ай бұрын

No, they attack him when he is wrong and he usually is.

@narendrasomawat5978

3 ай бұрын

​@@michaelwright8896no he's not. But people can be wrong he's not god but he still makes a lot of sense.

@michaelwright8896

3 ай бұрын

@@narendrasomawat5978 He is usually wrong.

@jesipohl6717

3 ай бұрын

​@@narendrasomawat5978he's so wrong he lost his licence to practice therapy trying to claim torture in therapy was OK.

@AppleOfThineEye

3 ай бұрын

^That wasn't why he lost his license(*), lol

Yes Doc! We, humans, are visionaries; constantly and yet unaware of it. In this we are "free" but imprisoned by the idea or false notion of predetermined event. 🎯😲🔥🔥🔥🔥💡

What do u see when u wake in your room in the morning? I've honestly seen furniture...... never realised that 'possibility of the day' was right there waiting 4 me to interact with it! That's an eye opener 4 me.

@jrd33

4 ай бұрын

What you "see" is largely determined by your current intentions. Your brain interprets the signals from your eyes and presents you with the elements that are most important to you at that moment. If you are trying to quickly traverse a room, furniture is largely "obstacles between me and the door", perhaps subdivided into "obstacles I have to avoid", "obstacles I can brush out of the way" and "obstacles I can step over".

@rizdekd3912

4 ай бұрын

I assume that's tongue in cheek? Because the first thing I always think of is what my day holds or at least I wonder what is on the schedule for the day. Haven't you ever woke up mulling over something that you know is going to happen that day...eg an outing, an interview, an obligation/deadline?

@jesipohl6717

3 ай бұрын

​@@rizdekd3912 what do you think Peterson was thinking when he lost his licence for claiming his training supports denigrating people he doesn't like? I think of BPD, with probably some NPD. Being a white guy with those features, makes it sometimes easier to advance a career.

@rizdekd3912

3 ай бұрын

@@jesipohl6717 "what do you think Peterson was thinking when he lost his licence for claiming his training supports denigrating people he doesn't like?" I would imagine someone losing their license would feel disconcerted and frustrated. He may feel chagrined or angry or like he was unfairly treated. I don't know. But I don't understand how that relates to my comment.

@chibibar

3 ай бұрын

@@rizdekd3912 It could be that but the awesome thing (depending on how you look at it) each person look at the potential and deal with it differently. The younger would probably think about what going in school (class, homework, potential love interest, upcoming date) or adult (work, workload, how to pay the bills) How we tackle each day might be a pattern (clock in, clock out, get paycheck) but others may do that AND try to figure out way to make more money (hopefully legally ;) ) now as for Dr. Peterson losing his license, he said he does not affect him AS much today. He can do talks and streaming like normal.

“Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” Viktor E. Frankl

@insanetubegain

Ай бұрын

I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.

@King-oj8hr

21 күн бұрын

In that space would only be space. Time ….. would really be “in that time is how we choose to power our response”

I'm grateful for you doc! You've helped me hone my moral compass on truth. We love you brother. Stay the course!

@iwenolongertrustliars9396

4 ай бұрын

Isn't it interesting how the more people explore finding the truth of life on earth, sanity and ethics that the more attacks come from slave classism owners / controllers and their bribed helpers. Then when the attacks fail they go covert with them as these being exposed publicly shows people the evil control freaks run societies we live in. Finally on another note the amount of making money scams in advertisements online is appaling, annoying and criminal. Showing the extreme greed and lack of honest accountability towards the slavery system helpers while everyone else gets attacked for telling more truth that is a totally incorrect accountability against the decent saner people. Backwards and upside down to morals and ethics finally changing from the saner people pushing back in recent years

@fullyawakened

4 ай бұрын

Oooof. this comment is reminds me of a creationist telling his preacher how much they love him for revealing the truth of jesus lol.

@jesipohl6717

3 ай бұрын

​@@fullyawakened nail on head

@AppleOfThineEye

3 ай бұрын

@@fullyawakened Ooooof. This reply's false equivalence is a biiiig yikes.

@fullyawakened

2 ай бұрын

@@AppleOfThineEye apologies if that straight forward analogy was way over your head lmao

A brilliant exposition of what distinguishes our humanity from everything else .., long live free will!! And more power to you JP!!

@insanetubegain

Ай бұрын

I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.

Very well articulated and makes perfect sense of what it is to be put into being through a cosmic divinity that manifests truth into reality and rightful meaning into purpose. I thoroughly enjoyed watching this to ascertain even more knowledge on the matter. Thanks for this great video

Pretty much everything he said can be true, that still doesn't get us to free will. Seems like he's addressing something fundamentally different than what most people define as "the ability to have done otherwise".

@Boykot1

4 ай бұрын

You choose if you want to walk with god, nothing is forcing you, not even god. Many argue that it is forced, and have a lot of different arguments about why. What he explains is that nothing you do is as pre-determined and controlled as 'something without free will'. Like any type of machine, a clock or an engine. They are forced to do that, no way around it, if so, it breaks. Arguments common here is that it's indirectly forced, being that you can't do whatever you want and still get to paradise/heaven. If you dont want God as you friend, it would be foolish of him to force you to be that, wouldn't it? It is pretty complex in of itself, but this is basically what it is all about. You'd be a resentful friend, not a good friendship. You get to choose, but you do not get to choose the outcome. Politicians prove this to me every day. Their action was to preserve and protect, help and sanctify, but ends in big arguments. Blame others, sure. You choose. Whatever arguments to go around it is not the narrow path. That is why belief lies in actions and not words. It is what you do, not what you wish for. What is forcing you, if not your own mentality? Knowing that the things you do may be wrong, but you don't want them to be, and make excuses to do them anyway. This applies to me at least, and I don't see it being different for anyone else. Kinda reminds me of Peter Pan and all that, living in a fantasy. You choose that, you get the outcome it gives. Up to you, isn't it? Outside factors being a thing you cannot control, you have to play the hand you've gotten. These are the ones you got, those are the ones they got, you can't steal others. I am not perfect at all(!), mind you, I am not here to point fingers and ''tell you'', I just wanted to share my point of view around this.

@gins8781

4 ай бұрын

“Whatever arguments to go around it is not the narrow path…..That is why belief lies in actions and not words. In other words; ” Faith without works is dead.” - James 2:26

@Baes_Theorem

4 ай бұрын

@@Boykot1 I'm not sure what god has to do with this; both myself and Jordan Peterson are atheists. In any case, you can talk about the importance of your mentality, but you don't get to choose your mentality. You don't choose what mentalities compel you, or why they compel you. You don't get to choose how easy it is to adopt particular mentalities, or which ones appear to you. You are entirely a slave to your brain states and the environment you inhabit.

@Baes_Theorem

4 ай бұрын

@@ConcedoNulli Agency is not the same thing as free will. Agency is the ability to make models of the future and act in such a way that they come about or do not come about. However, that doesn't tell us whether we were *free* to make those particular models or take those particular actions. In the same way, you can absolutely choose to defy one urge you have, such as the desire to eat when you are hungry, but that still doesn't mean you were free to do so. You were still moved by an inclination which you did not choose to have, nor did you choose to be moved by it.

@Aditya1998pandey

4 ай бұрын

You've only proven that what you're calling free will is merely an illusion.@@ConcedoNulli

'Well, it depends on what you mean by 'free' and what you mean by 'will' 😂😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂

@Messianic-Gentile

4 ай бұрын

Well, it does depend on those things…

@Simon53188

4 ай бұрын

@Messianic-Gentile 🤣😂🤣🤣😂🤣😂 it's such a JP sentence

@amibrainwashed

4 ай бұрын

It does get a bit old hearing that, but making these distinctions early on is important in order to solidify the idea your trying to discuss, especially when we live in a world rampant with post modernist sophists that like to use language in a way that redefines words to fit their worldview when it doesn't align with reality. When you solidify the meaning of words, it makes it that much harder for someone who might disagree with you to engage in motte and bailey type argumentation.

@Simon53188

4 ай бұрын

@amibrainwashed I agree with you. My issue with him now is that he can never seem to give a straight answer. I love his psychology work, his lectures on personality, the Big 5 specifically. It was his debates with Sam Harris and recently with the Islamic chap and that meme started kicking about that really made me laugh. It just seems like a cheap evasion tactic to me. I liked when Dawkins called out some of the things he was saying, he even asks him why he keeps jumping from subject to subject. He's no doubt an intelligent and interesting man, but I think evading questions and sometimes changing the definitions of what some words mean is somewhat hypocritical.

@greghefley3626

4 ай бұрын

I​@@Simon53188I see ur profile pic. Do you watch the punisher?

I havent been able to find it since, but i remember it being explained as two trains on parallel tracks that exactly run parallel forever no matter which way they turn. One track is free will and one track is determinism. In other words you have free will... But it also so happens that you will make the same choices no matter what.

@pauljohnson6019

2 ай бұрын

That's contradictory, if you have free will, you can't make the same choice all the time- if so you're basically an automaton, which makes no sense, if God has already programmed you, the argument will be, what's the point of repenting anyway, if God already knows, whatever you do, you are destined for hell, doesn't make sense at all.

@kaislate

2 ай бұрын

@@pauljohnson6019 I think it was said best when God was talking with Bender

@kaislate

2 ай бұрын

There are concepts that are beyond the scope of this conversation, but to give you a direction to go with I'll say this. Our experience of time is a symptom of our limitations. Our limitations are set because of a need for an all powerful being to desire to k ow himself. Once that desire manifested limitation was created... which in turn manifested everything down to where we are now. Back to time though. Our limitation of experiencing time linearly is only our perception. All time happens at once. Everything that has happened will happen, everything that will happen has happened, as well as all of it is currently happening. This is a concept that takes some dedication to understand as with most metaphysics. These are some things that will help with understanding "free-will" as it is often misdefined therefore misunderstood.

What location was this from Jordan’s tour? Could that information be included in the description?

*BEST ADVISE I EVER HEARD:* *"DON'T LISTEN TO THE WORDS OF FOOLS, LISTEN TO THE GREAT MASTERS"*

@nickf2657

4 ай бұрын

Well, there is only one master. This idea that there are masters takes away from the rightful master. The one true God.

@adayah2933

4 ай бұрын

I have another deep advice for you: always do the right thing. And never do the wrong thing. You're welcome. 😊

@MelissaR784

2 ай бұрын

​@@adayah2933Think that's called having integrated. Doing the right thing, because it's the right thing to do.

I agree that perception is reality, totally. Not so long ago i was on a car and i just looked at the streets and i understood that everything i was seeing was amorphous and none-sensical, in modern terms ''absurd''. I understood that i was the interpreter, we are interpreters of that nonesensical reality, and that's our task. Matter shapes the Psyque, Psyque shapes Matter. As above, so below. In free will, a secret determinism. In determinism, a secret free will. I think our free will resides on the capacity to surrender to our task and embrace whatever life throw at us. Free will is an act of love, not of Will to Power. Or may be both, i just know i know nothing.

@Doug-tp1jp

4 ай бұрын

Don't be so hard on yourself. You had no choice except to know that you know nothing.

@jorgeserrano6295

4 ай бұрын

I love the part about matter shapes psyche, thus psyche must shape matter. Incredible

@theshushu7940

4 ай бұрын

Perception is not reality. None of this is real. Neither is any form of free will. We do not shape anything, we merely follow the algorithm and experience things. You think surrendering to your task is your choice? It's already been made for you if you accept the truth or not. Even what I say here is already been written and I have no control over this even if I know you are an illusion also and my words are pointless.

@zorkabiljecki7408

4 ай бұрын

Well put! Extraordinary! Especially when you actually used word - secret, both ways.

@bvokey8842

4 ай бұрын

Or you might say, free will resides on the capacity to surrender to, and embrace, our purpose. In that regard, we’re free only to the extent that we move toward our purpose. And you could say our purpose is to move toward love - which by doing so we inevitably give glory to God. In contrast, when we’re not surrendering to or embracing what life throws at us, with love, we necessarily move away from our purpose and instead toward a form of enslavement in that we’re stuck dwelling on things which we know are detrimental to our wellbeing. That’s the opposite of freedom - trying to be, or move toward, something that we’re not made for.

Free will... Free is unconstrained. Will is the label for one's wanting thoughts, I want to do this, I want to have that, etc. Thus free will is simply unconstrained wants. Why I want what I want is a different and very interesting question. Since the source of all one's conscious thoughts is one's unconscious we have the proximate answer. How one's unconscious becomes stocked is very largely one's experience of culture and it is this experience that constitutes the more distant answer.

Thank you!

@insanetubegain

Ай бұрын

I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.

We are bound by the limitations of our individual brains mixed with our life’s experiences. Mic drop!

@BlandBandit

4 ай бұрын

And genetics but I suppose that fits under the individual brains bit

"the difficulty in predicting the future means it's not deterministic" lul wut.

@Baes_Theorem

4 ай бұрын

Exactly. Our epistemic state has zero bearing on whether we are the author of our choices.

@derekdurst2146

4 ай бұрын

NO! It is only "difficult" because it is complicated.

@rizdekd3912

4 ай бұрын

@@derekdurst2146 "NO! It is only "difficult" because it is complicated." I'm not sure who you're responding to, but that's not the only reason we couldn't predict the future based on the current arrangement of matter/energy if, that is, one buys into quantum indeterminacy. IF there is an indeterminate feature of quantum mechanics, it likely means that no matter how much we know about the arrangement of the physical world and the processes, we still could not calculate the future including decisions.

@derekdurst2146

4 ай бұрын

@@rizdekd3912 If we had a big enough computer, sure we could, absolutely!

@rizdekd3912

4 ай бұрын

@@derekdurst2146 "If we had a big enough computer, sure we could, absolutely!" Do you not agree with the idea of quantum indeterminacy?

"God is the spirit that confronts chaos and possibility and transforms it into habitable reality, and that's you". Wow

Of course, we have free will, we have no choice.

@pauljohnson6019

2 ай бұрын

Good one! Actually either way, that's a paradox, if you had a choice to be determined, your very choice leads to something which cannot be free, which means God is controlling your every thought and action, better to have a choice in the sense of not choosing to be determined, but in fact, if you want, God can make you determined.

4:00 "you are not a clockwork machine driven by stimulus" I think the less conscious a person is the more that person is driven by stimuli

@reb3799

4 ай бұрын

It may be the case but every human being is conscious to some degree.

@MichaelWestgate

4 ай бұрын

I would add that the more traumatized the person is the less free will they have. trauma rewires the nervous system to be very affected by everything around you rather than having any sort of choice.

@martinburrows6844

4 ай бұрын

​@@MichaelWestgatewe can be very reactionary creatures when operating on our instinct to survive. When we feel we are safe, we then can reflect and reason and logic etc.

@smolbean5204

4 ай бұрын

@@MichaelWestgate But we must consider each individuals level of self-consciousness regarding how their trauma affects them. Some people can look at themselves in the third person and recognize their behavior has changed but others seem less able. We could argue that those who become self-aware weren’t as traumatized in the first place but then we run into the problem of forcing our interpretation on somebody else’s experience. Idk tho

@reb3799

4 ай бұрын

You all are so right and so smart I wish I could hang with you guys. I appreciate your contributions and thinking process. Nice to read and to have been a part of this simple conversation. Thank you. Made my day.

Wondering about free will's existence is actually so stupid it basically proves that it exists. Since it is apparently unprovable, what can it matter? It is clearly profitable for your mentality to believe that you can effect change in the world - put post-modernly, "believe in yourself". To accept anything other makes you not an agent but a tool. So you can embrace toolhood, or simply tell the world you are an agent and in so doing be one. And since we see around us a great body of men and women who are apparently agents, and some who seem to be tools, what shall we say? That all the agents are merely tools too? No. We shall say it as it is. We may choose either role, and in so doing we display the capacity to choose, thus becoming an agent. And so, no tools remain. And the circle continues. Hence, we conclude, we must take the answer at least partially on faith. In the absence of evidence, one may reserve judgement I suppose, but in this case, I think it's fine to just say that you do.

@insanetubegain

Ай бұрын

I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.

Amazing!

Thank you

Let me join the chorus here... "Free will" is obviously not something you can touch or put under a microscope. It seems more of a state of consciousness where the individual soul inhabits a state of undetermined possibility. The degree to which we are inhabiting it, I believe only God can observe, but it exists. Otherwise the concept of accountability would be meaningless. I believe this is why the example of faith needing not being of comparatively significant material size (mustard seed) is appropriate. The future is to be met with faith enough to move the direction of a part of your soul that seems so small that you can't even "put your finger on it".

@theshushu7940

4 ай бұрын

The complete opposite in fact, you must surrender all to God and only then will you experience faith and freedom. If you believe in God I don't understand how you can paradoxically say you have free will and yet God is the alpha and omega. Besides which science has pretty much proven that we only experience things in the past and can only react. As to why God gave us the illusion of free will it's pretty obvious isn't it? Otherwise the experience wouldn't feel very authentic now would it. There is nothing to be accountable for, we are all God and will return, nothing happens on earth or heaven without the will of God, even "evil". Once you understand these things you will know that good and evil don't exist as God has formed everything to our benefit. Our suffering isn't real and neither is our joy. It only is as has been willed. Nothing happens without God's say so isn't that so?

@rembeadgc

4 ай бұрын

@@theshushu7940 You must have faith before you can surrender to anything. Why would you surrender unless you trusted in the benefit of doing so? What then is the purpose of faith if you are not allowed a measure of freedom to exercise it? Scripture clearly outlines these parameters throughout the writing of all its authors and it is inherent in the propositional nature of the entire biblical record... not to mention being evident in man's natural understanding of himself and the universe. Some of what you are saying is true but it has to be understood with the correct framework. Your presentation is a bit convoluted and means to me that it is still in formation. God is the author of meaning and reality. God is not the creator of evil as evil is not a created thing. It is a state that exists in the absence of righteousness and holiness. It's purpose is in its relevance to our experience and relationship to God. That is as real as it needs to be and so is our experience of it. It clearly has purpose and effect, whether one believes it or not. i think Peterson described the parameters of what we call free will aptly.

@insanetubegain

Ай бұрын

I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.

@theofficialness578

23 күн бұрын

That’s because accountability is meaningless. Coming from my subjective experience, the mind and brian are not separate they are one in the same. Not trying to change your opinion, I just disagree.

We operate as though we have free will, even if the universe is deterministic. We dont have perfect knowledge, let alone sufficient limited knowledge. Even if it is merely the story we form to justify deterministic actions, that story is free.

@pyros4333

4 ай бұрын

The universe isn't deterministic either lol

@arrgylerawrgyle3784

4 ай бұрын

@@pyros4333 maybe re-read what I said.

@sammesingson7584

4 ай бұрын

It is, we just can never know what is determined infinitely. So free will is like money, it exist but conventionally​@@pyros4333

@pyros4333

4 ай бұрын

@@arrgylerawrgyle3784 no I rather not. My universe is free of your will

@-.-Rob-.-XY

4 ай бұрын

The only reason we can’t predict every event in every place at any time is insufficient knowledge

brings tears to my eyes

I wake up with the exact same thoughts. My goal for the day and the obstacles. My goal may be preset but I have no power over the obstacles.

I believe that it is both Freewill and Predestination at the same time. Humans have no idea how this can be.

@flymoolahman2763

4 ай бұрын

Or maybe, we haven't figured out a way to express it soundly just quite yet.

@martinburrows6844

4 ай бұрын

Sneezing is not free will. Using my hand or handkerchief or not, is the free part (albeit socially influenced)

@TheGiantMidget

4 ай бұрын

Those are literally polar opposites you can't believe in both. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. If we have free will then the future is completely chaotic and has no destination

@elizabethl6187

4 ай бұрын

My current working theory is that God allows us free will, while using His complete mastery of what we call Chaos Theory, able to bring about His goals regardless of our decisions. We also fail (understandably) to see how He operates outside of our linear time. He can tweak any part of the story at any point. It’s because He wants to evoke a response of real love, freely given. Automatons are not fit for purpose.

@SupachargedGaming

4 ай бұрын

Any "theory" that includes a god, or anything else supernatural, is a fiction not a theory. Use the evidence you have available, don't make extraordinary claims such as god unless you have extraordinary evidence to back it up.@@elizabethl6187

That was the most wonderful answer I ever have heard.

@insanetubegain

Ай бұрын

I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.

People are forced to think and do the types of things that their type of genetics and their types of life experiences program them to think and do throughout their life. Who and how someone happens to be is an extremely unfair unjust lottery that is dependent on what type of genetics that they happen to have and depending on what types of life experiences they happen to have throughout their life.

FABULOUS, Thank You!!! ❤

@insanetubegain

Ай бұрын

I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.

I would tend to agree more with Dr Robert Sapolsky on this topic. His ideas can be somewhat disturbing for many but definitely worth checking out.

I contacted a lawyer about having some estate planning paperwork done. That was when I found out that there is no free will. 🙂

@Ashtor1337

4 ай бұрын

😂😂😂😂😂

@terranaut3314

4 ай бұрын

Yeah, but some academic in some university said that the entire universe is deterministic even though they have spent their entire life couped up in a lab... on earth... not even talking to people

@terranaut3314

4 ай бұрын

Yeah, but some academic in some university said that the entire universe is deterministic even though they have spent their entire life couped up in a lab... on earth... not even talking to people

@terranaut3314

4 ай бұрын

Yeah, but some academic in some university said that the entire universe is deterministic even though they have spent their entire life couped up in a lab... on earth... not even talking to people

I like his free will blazer. "I'm free to be two colors if I want."

I like what your saying and i like the suit just as much. Ty.

JP’s brain: (complex deterministic philosophy) My brain: “Why is he dressed like Two-Face?”

Determinism is irrelevant for the concept of free will! Even without determinism a case for free will can't be made logically! It basically boils down to HOW we make a decision: Either there is a reason for why we decided something, i.e. there is a chain of causes and effects that lead to this decision (determinism) or there is no reason for why we decided something, i.e. there was an effect without a cause but that would mean that we are not responsible for the effect! I am aware of how demoralizing this realization can be and want to add something: Although the concept of free will is illogical, we still need to act as if free will exists! It requires us take responsibilities. Without it, I assume, we would be much more likely to just blame the universe for our miserable existence. It was not our decision after all.

@brando3342

4 ай бұрын

Classic example of a false dichotomy you’ve built for yourself there 👍

@BrightBitGAMES

4 ай бұрын

Classic example of claiming something without saying much! 👍In case you think that I am conflating the terms responsibility and free will: No I am not! They are obviously not the same but they are related: You can't be responsible for something without a free will. I am interested in feedback/criticism but please be a little bit more clear about what you mean.

@AppleOfThineEye

3 ай бұрын

@@BrightBitGAMES tldr lol

@insanetubegain

Ай бұрын

I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.

@theofficialness578

23 күн бұрын

I find it interesting how, the realization tends to leads to just act like it dose exist. And doesn’t lead to more anti-natallist ways of thinking as it did with my self, because yes, I metaphorically “blame” the universe for our miserable existence and it would be “wrong” of “me” to subject anyone else.

Cleaning my room with my lobster broom.

If things look more determined as they get closer to the present, then does that mean that hindsight will reveal determinism?

Free will is available for all who choose to exercise it. I choose not to drink or do drugs. I choose instead to get a good night sleep and be at work on time.

@Okmanl

4 ай бұрын

Did you choose your personality which led you to make decisions such as abstaining from using drugs? Or was your personality formed by environmental and biological factors which you had no control over?

@CaptainTitforce

4 ай бұрын

What made you think that you are doing the right thing by not drinking? Did you decide that you are good by your own free will?

@BridgeTROLL777

4 ай бұрын

free will is scientific impossibility, an absolute fairy tale.

@rumfordc

4 ай бұрын

@@Okmanl Seeing as how you directed your comment to them, and not their surrounding environment or internal biology, you understand perfectly well already where their personality is formed.

@mensaswede4028

3 ай бұрын

@Milestonemonger Sadly a lot of people think it’s that simple, but it’s not. The other comments here should help you start to understand why it’s not that simple.

The amount of truth and light this dude is dropping here is genuinely shocking

@Christ60

4 ай бұрын

It’s amazing

@fredjimbob2962

4 ай бұрын

It sounded like a load of nonsense to me. "The universe is not deterministic, technically speaking. There isn't any dispute about that." This statement is completely false. We have no evidence to say whether it's deterministic or not. "You're not a clockwork machine. And the reason that we know that is because a clockwork machine can't compute the transforming horizon of the future." This is just meaningless word salad which he doesn't even attempt to explain. Even if the universe isn't deterministic, that in no way implies that free will exists. And that's to say nothing of the fact that nobody has ever come up with any coherent definition of free will, and certainly not Peterson. Free will does not and can not exist because the concept itself is incoherent and self contradictory.

@Christ60

4 ай бұрын

@@fredjimbob2962 free will exists, even if it’s a small amount it exists cuz if it didn’t none of these things in this life would exist. God has given us free will because it’s the only way we can exist as a species

@fredjimbob2962

4 ай бұрын

@@Christ60 Ok, well if you believe in the old man in the sky, then you'll believe anything and I guess there's not much point in us discussing free will.

@Christ60

4 ай бұрын

@@fredjimbob2962 I believe what I believe you believe what you believe, but Jesus Christ is realer than all things of this world and he suffered and died for our sakes, was buried and rose again, I wish you a blessed day🩸🙏

Everything we are is defined by what we are not. What we used to be or what we never were. Every choice we make, every outcome we experience is an opportunity to establish what and where we are or to bring into bold relief where we are lacking. To me free will is simply the opportunity to engage in this process of self evaluation and self creation. I see it as a collaborative effort between us and our Creator and serves us both as we engage in the eternal adventure of self realization. To think of it otherwise would make life essentially pointless.

@Misha0013

4 ай бұрын

Self is illusion. Have fun :)

There are several undefined perspectives coming from just this sentence alone, "Whatever you are you're not a deterministic clock," whatever those may be, the sentence seems to describe that indeed objectively you're not something alike or near to a deterministic mechanical structural device technically speaking. It would be great to ask Peterson, "What is technically speaking? Define it." However, Peterson is taking a more literal approach to this: we cannot determine the future like a clock, therefore the future is unpredictable. This might also be a simplistic approach regarding the *literal sense,* PLUS, the fact that human observation will only observe simplicity when complexity isn't specified. "The universe is not deterministic, technically speaking," from the same standpoint, the universe cannot avoid complexity of factors due to our observation. Assuming that 'complexity of factors' implies that we partook in the essential *definition* of the universe. However, that further implies it was inherent for us to observe, but the universe would not take that into consideration at all. Now, the example that Peterson shows actually supposes free will because it proves there can be an abrupt change that you chose to happen, at your will, whether the complexities or simplicities led to that outcome it still then determined a different state of being. Sort of as if I collapsed my worldview. The next point is essentially is nicely put "Reconfigure how you think about the world," then he follows up with, "You don't see objects that are objective," and, "You see patterns that are functional." Us humans truly defy basic stimuli in a sense. I think those concepts can certainly be intuitive as we play the role of observers.

To me, free will is defined by mankind being the only part of God's creation that can say "no" to God. We're also the only part of God's creation that can say "yes" to God. We have the power to choose to live a life, eternal with God or a life eternal apart from the presence of God. Freedom to choose is the bedrock of humanities' "free will."

@ThomasThornton-zh7cl

Ай бұрын

Well put!

@insanetubegain

Ай бұрын

I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.

@troyblackwell3995

Ай бұрын

@@insanetubegain You just acknowledged there is a God. God allows you to make the decision, He just accepts that decision you made. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Hell was not created for man, but for the devil and his followers: Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. God doesn't leave you, you choose to leave Him. Repentance means to change your mind. If it was not possible to change your mind, it would be a lie, and there are three things God cannot do, He cannot lie, He cannot die, and He cannot change. The choice is yours where you spend eternity, not God's.

VERY well put. It may take those who are overcomplicating it a bit to get honest enough to see the simplicity.

Would love to have taken one of his classes when he was a college lecturer.

We could be composed of deterministic mechanisms that are tuned to optimize our response to a variety of environments. Just because we are adaptable doesn't mean it's not deterministic.

Best yapping of the year!🎉Congrats!!

free will doesn't make any sense. It's either randomness or determinism not a 3rd option. And randomness doesn't mean free will it means randomness. Still liked the video.

@brando3342

4 ай бұрын

That’s a very nice false dichotomy ya got there! 👍

@elselor

4 ай бұрын

@@brando3342 thank you good luck finding your magical free will though

I can't get on board with his initial statement that we aren't clockwork machines because we can "compute the transforming horizon of the future". A machine certainly can make predictions about the future and modify those predictions as new information becomes available. It may not always get it right, and so it is with humans. I fail to see how that defeats determinism. Anyone know what I'm missing?

Brilliant

“Do we have free will?” Is the wrong question. We do have some will of our own but it most certainly isn’t “free”.

@tylerdurden4396

4 ай бұрын

Still not true in my view. Peterson poses the notion of forward planning as evidence to not being the same as a clockwork machine, but this is a strawman argument because nobody is saying we are like machines. We are, as far as we know, entirely different as we get to experience our existence. But forward planning is an easily explicable function of evolution; you don’t have to work too hard to figure out how that might be the case. His analysis is wrong on another level also: they very plans he nods to as evidence are, by definition, based upon past experience and societal indoctrination that drive us to certain things. You don’t THINK you are hungry, you are hungry. You don’t think you want a Lamborghini, you explain to yourself in your head that you want one, but wanting is a feeling, not a thought, and we don’t, without practice l, decide our feelings. Even when we do, practice itself is an overt, obvious example for programming our biology. You can’t do that unless it is mechanistic.

@isinox

4 ай бұрын

@@tylerdurden4396 yeah, but when you put so much passion into words and expand your vocabulary people seem to believe all the bullshit you fling at them...

@tylerdurden4396

4 ай бұрын

@@isinox I guess so. I like JBP by the way and I think his general message (something like take responsibility and aim for the highest good) is a sound one. I just think he tends to misrepresent arguments a little. He’s thrown himself into promoting religion in the last year or so, perhaps because of his loyalty to his wife, but it to the detriment of his own logic. He couldn’t even help bringing it up to this question, and when anybody uses religion as an argument for science the game is up.

@isinox

4 ай бұрын

@@tylerdurden4396 I used to like JP, not anymore. I sense a fraud each time somebody deliberately uses language that's difficult to understand either by complex vocabulary or by the structure when there's no need to. He's a fraud and when it comes to his general message, please understand that it's a political one, not in the self care category. He is far more interested in changing the culture than helping individuals. Not once have I heard him say that taking responsability is not the pancea for all hardship or mental disease... I bet there's a bunch of suffering people out there beating themselves up because they can't follow JP's advice... Anyways, I have to agree with you 100% on one thing: "when anybody uses religion as an argument for science the game is up" - when this shit happens it's so obvious it stinks...

@TheFloNTheMo

4 ай бұрын

If we truly had free will, we would all will ourselves to live our best possible lives, yet 99% of the people on this planet are not doing so. We are merely influenced by Good or Evil.

So glad I listened to my man Rush Limbaugh from the beginning ( RIP) He specifically told his audience long ago that this man is a brilliant glittering gem of wisdom and truth! Little did I know, as I first was introduced to his book 12 rules for life, Rush was Right!!! Now this man is one who I follow closely and learn from him each time I hear him speak!!!

@bricaaron3978

4 ай бұрын

Rush? Really? How long ago was that?

@benneisam

3 ай бұрын

I didn't know Rush said that. RIP Rush.

@insanetubegain

Ай бұрын

I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.

@bricaaron3978

Ай бұрын

@@insanetubegain *"So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you?"* Your problem is that you assume that you have any idea whatever what it means to be hyperdimensional. Any argument based upon a likening of human perception to hyperdimensional perception is illegitimate. *"If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil."* What do you mean --- "evil"?

@insanetubegain

Ай бұрын

@@bricaaron3978 Immoral, wicked, sadistic, a fetish for foreskins. I just threw that last one in because it's true and funny at the same time.

Railroad tracks look like they meet at some point in the distance. They don't...but it's useful to think about them doing so.

A brilliant thinking mind!

no we really are a machine your ability to perceive the formula does not make it unestablished

@guardingsoul6652

4 ай бұрын

unestablished? what do you mean?

@user-zo1kn8ob7h

4 ай бұрын

would you prefer nonestablished?@@guardingsoul6652

@reb3799

4 ай бұрын

I appreciate the clarity in your expression. To answer, I believe Dr. Peterson posits that machines solely respond to objects and stimuli. He contends that our distinction from machines lies in two key aspects: firstly, our embodiment of the spirit of God, and secondly, our unique unability to perceive objects but our subjective interpretations of them, which is what we contend with.

@lovetownsend

4 ай бұрын

Exactly. Philosophers argue abstract version of free-will but that's such a cop out. We are 100% determined, everything that ever will happen is decided.

@guardingsoul6652

4 ай бұрын

@@lovetownsend Decided by what exactly?

You control your arm continuously, hence that's not a ballistic movement. It's guided.

@jrd33

4 ай бұрын

You can move your arm continuously, but you can also move your arm moves faster than the time it takes your conscious brain to send signals to your arm. This is clearly the case in fast-moving sports where players train their reflexes to react faster than their brain can consciously make decisions.

@bosspaw4028

4 ай бұрын

It’s literally called a ballistic movement, he didn’t just make this up. The point is well and truly over your head.

@Ben-bg2lp

4 ай бұрын

@@bosspaw4028 No son, I'm a mechanical engineer.

@bosspaw4028

4 ай бұрын

@@Ben-bg2lp And I’m a biologist. What’s your point daddy?

@Ben-bg2lp

4 ай бұрын

@@bosspaw4028 What is your job though? I don't expect a zoo employee to know about physics. Or logic for that matter!

Wow, I love this idea. We are visionary every morning.

Loved it.......

"Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills" - Schopenhauer

I love Dr. Peterson. Jonathan Edwards answered the question of free will in the 18th century. Some say that if it were the only thing he ever wrote, it alone would be enough to make him the greatest philosopher to ever be born in America.

@tubsy.

4 ай бұрын

What did he say

@jmoore20121992

4 ай бұрын

The title of the work is this: “An Inquiry into the Modern Prevailing Notions of the Freedom of the Will which is Supposed to be Essential to Moral Agency, Virtue and Vice, Reward and Punishment, Praise and Blame” Or simply “Freedom of the Will”

@brando3342

4 ай бұрын

@@jmoore20121992 Johnathan Edwards was wrong. He was dedicated to his Calvinism, or in other words, his determinism.

@jmoore20121992

4 ай бұрын

That’s an interesting position. Have you read his book?

@brando3342

4 ай бұрын

@@jmoore20121992 To be fair, I haven't read his book. However, I am fairly familiar with his more contemporary theological mates, who ascribe to his way of thinking. People like James White, Steve Lawson, John Piper etc.

Was this in Brisbane? I remember this

@nf6386

3 ай бұрын

I was thinking Melbourne, where I saw him wear that suit at least. But then I watched recordings of the other Aussie events, so can’t remember which Q&A was which. Hope he makes it back here!

I think my issue is the concept of "free" will. But rather what we can do is a product of where we are and who we are. What we can try to do is without limit, but we can't do everything. Sorta the reverse of everyone can cook from ratatouille. We still have choice. But it's not unrestrained.

Seems to me that all the people who are arguing that they don’t have free will secretly hope not to be fully responsible for their choices. Whether it’s “we’re just chemical reactions” or “I’m just following what it says in the Bible”, it looks like people unwilling to see just how powerful they truly are.

@lbjay8914

4 ай бұрын

but it is chemical reactions isnt it?

@theshushu7940

4 ай бұрын

Free will doesn't exist, that doesn't mean that the illusion of it doesn't. If the illusion of free will didn't exist this experience wouldn't be very authentic. It's proven scientifically now that our reality isn't even real, and that our "decisions" are just reactions to what our body does autonomously. If you understand how light and photons work it makes perfect sense.

@Messianic-Gentile

4 ай бұрын

⁠@@lbjay8914no, it manifests itself through chemical reactions. No amount of chemical reactions on their own can produce a thought or feeling.

@cmvdlp1630

4 ай бұрын

It’s a pure matter of fact. There cant be free will. Either something is determined or it is random. There is no between. In 2500 years of Philosophy no one ever gave a positive definition of what free will is. So i think, that people, who say that there is no free will, are just intellectually honest and want to face the consequences of reality, but the one who denies it, by ignoring the logical conclusions, is just scared to give up his sacred Freedom: it’s weakness. But nontheless, the ontological question of free will is a matter of fact and not of morals and emotions. Study the matter, before saying your thoughts about it.

@yoni6442

4 ай бұрын

We don’t have free will. Everything that will happen can ultimately be determined if you knew the position and trajectory of every particle in the universe. Although we don’t have free will, we choose to do our actions and are fully accountable for them.

summing up, deterministic materialism is just wrong because, well it is, and i can waive my arm and stop suddenly and my analogy about life being a play is right because look at my beautiful interpretation of the bible.

@reb3799

4 ай бұрын

AHAHAHA

@sarcasticinema

4 ай бұрын

current brain science about perception and how we process vision and other inputs indicates the immateriality of “solid objects”. It’s a quantum problem.

Aristotle said in his Organon that, if there are contingent things, then determinism is false. There are contingent things. Therefore, determinism is false.

We must believe in free will, we have no choice.

@insanetubegain

Ай бұрын

I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.

Being unable to predict what's going to happen doesn't make it any less determined. Everything is set in stone. The past, present, and future are all locations that exist at once. The universe is like an object that we experience. Our conscious experience travels through spacetime like a train on a track. We only have the illusion of being able to choose the direction we go. There is no free will. If it makes you feel better to imagine yourself as being free, or if it helps you make better decisions, by all means pretend. But ultimately everything is just cause and effect, with you caught in the middle. I think Jordan's religiosity gets in the way of him seeing this.

@RK-rb2jr

4 ай бұрын

It is not 100% known whether absolute determinism exists as far as I know; however, the alternative is randomness, which would't make free will real. In my opinion, the concept of free will itself makes no sense.

@reb3799

4 ай бұрын

I'm struggling to understand. What allows you to confirm that everything is set in stone if you acknowledge your incapacity of being conscious of it?

@reb3799

4 ай бұрын

@@RK-rb2jr it seems that your argument may be characterized as a false dilemma fallacy.

@martinarooney228

4 ай бұрын

Is that just a cop-out way of thinking though, kinda like defeatism? It's harder to will the better good than give in to the easier choice...But doing so far more rewarding

@RK-rb2jr

4 ай бұрын

@@reb3799 I see your point. Let me clarify: When thinking about how the universe works on a fundamental level, it either has structure / causality / logic, which would make it deterministic, or there is no structure, aka randomness. It could also be partly deterministic and partly random, which seems to be the most likely, as far as I know. Free will then is a whole ’nother topic. It is already hard to define it. As far as I consider, what is meant by it is the power over decisions an individual has. But looking at it from the outside and in the context of the universe, it makes no sense and is more of a feeling than a logical construct.

A child born into a poor family is not predetermined to remain poor. A child that is born into a wealthy family is not destined to remain rich. They each make choices and have influences which help them arrive at different ends that those at which they began.

@produck2002

4 ай бұрын

Can you tell me how said choices and decisions are formed and made ? Whats their origin ?

@nickf2657

4 ай бұрын

​@@produck2002The word God spoke

@theofficialness578

23 күн бұрын

That’s only looking at edge cases (outlines) honing in on the 100 or so million. Completely discounting, a much larger data set, also determinism doesn’t mean predetermined, that’s fatalism.

Anyone know what the full video for this one is?

@Jack__________

4 ай бұрын

The link is in the description.

@lovetownsend

4 ай бұрын

ty!@@Jack__________

@nf6386

3 ай бұрын

You can see all the recordings of this tour with a DailyWire subscription. I cancelled mine, but there was enough good content from JBP and some excellent anti-woke documentaries to justify 1-2 months subscription cost at least.

Dr. Petersen presents some very interesting points. Certainly, our machines are engineered to be deterministic. They are characterized by the deterministic theory that defines them. We operate them within a specific domain so they remain predictable. Science also deals with deterministic systems. The key quality of a scientific theory, what makes them valuable, is they predict the future. Not all components of deterministic systems are predictable, the motion of a molecule in a gas, for example. An indeterministic system may include deterministic components, the human heart, for example. Thus, most deterministic systems have indeterministic aspects and vis versa. The question is, what do we mean by "free". I think we mean a thing is free if it is, in principle, unpredictable. The question is, how can we know that something is, in principle, unpredictable .

Wow, this is just a religious answer. Where on the way, did he lose his scientific approach?

@whousa642

4 ай бұрын

incorrect

@Eisenmengercpas

4 ай бұрын

Using science to prove religion is fruitless. Science requires a repeatable event for proof. Science cannot prove the existence of George Washington.

@AppleOfThineEye

3 ай бұрын

"Religion is when answer I don't like"

@Renato404

3 ай бұрын

Just because you cannot check everyone's genitalia at the door, doesn't mean that they aren't - as a matter of fact, a man or a woman. Likewise, just because you can't antecipate the future, doesn't mean that it can't be predetermined.

@gallevran

2 ай бұрын

It's a spiritual answer. Not a religious one. Can you tell the difference? The man's too smart to be only scientific.

Bro just used some word salad

@jeremiahgrimm928

Ай бұрын

No, he is concise. Understanding him requires knowledge of the words he uses, which requires above High School level reading.

Well, how would you know if the future really is not determined or if no one knows that the future is determined? Natural selection is not a clockwork machine, but does that mean that natural selection is random?

What Dr. Peterson describes is the highest good in the natural order. When he says “highest good” one must contextualize it this way. For the highest good, our sanctification, is the ordering of our lives naturally so as to make way for the highest good which is not of the strength of man but of the goodness of God, namely to love.

Peterson is wrong about free will and his ballistic hand move demonstration is also wrong.

@bogdanshevchenko

2 ай бұрын

Let's hear a better explanation from you. I'll wait.

Every physicist in the world would disagree with Dr. Peterson.

@StrikingCrayon

4 ай бұрын

Nope

@artemissthee3

4 ай бұрын

And that's an issue? A fractured science says little about terms like physicist.

@martinarooney228

4 ай бұрын

Not true, there are changes happening in physics

@fishfrogdolphin2799

4 ай бұрын

Physicists can’t even agree as to how to philosophically understand quantum mechanical phenomena and processes (there are dozens of possible interpretations).

Everything is probabilities, and since probabilities are ratios, they are frequencies and wave theory applies. Watch out for the monster waves.

Ballistic, the root in Greek being βαλλίστρα ballistra - or to throw - you throw something you no longer control its path beyond the predetermined strength and angle of the throw... SO know what you do, and why... Free will?

One of the best speeches JBP has ever given, definitely. Whenever anyone tries to explain God using logic it falls flat, because that's an impossible task, thus destined to fail no matter how smart you are. It's the foundations of the religious world view that can be (and should be) explained to the modern man who has forgotten their true meaning.

Choice is lack of clarity.

We have will as bounded by the laws that restrain it. The question that is primary is who established the laws? Secondary, is that if there is an authority that established and maintains the laws bounding will, what are those laws? Intellectual, emotional, moral, ethical, physical, and spiritual…

@mcgackaclan9909

4 ай бұрын

Now one must ask, what are the consequences of breaking the laws. If it is the law of gravity you reject, you fall to your death. If it is the law of morality you reject you fall to hell. This is why Christ came to connect the laws, the lawmaker and those bound by the law, because we have all sinned, transgressing His law. Christ offers those who chose Him, forgiveness of the transgressions of things that are bounded as good vs evil. We are gifted by grace the ability to express our will to accept or reject the offer of redemption from our transgressions of Gods moral law.

@Christ60

2 ай бұрын

GOD THE FATHER THROUGH HIS SON JESUS CHRIST ESTABLISHED IT

Dr. Peterson is a fundamentalist in a best possible meaning of this word.))

4:18 I confront my furniture every time I look…

Tomorrow, I will eat dinner, do I know what I will eat? And what I will eat was that already determined? Or it is determine seconds before I decide? If someone ask me pizza or lasagna? And I said, give me few seconds, and if I choose lasagna, was that always going be determine it was going to be lasagna regardless of those seconds? I am fascinated by free will or the lack of it conversations

@theofficialness578

23 күн бұрын

The real questions are, why are you choosing between Pizza and lasagna? What led to the choice?

@DaSkarekrow

23 күн бұрын

@@theofficialness578 someone asked me pizza or lasagna, those were the choices for dinner...now if I had the choice, maybe it would have been neither

@theofficialness578

23 күн бұрын

@@DaSkarekrow why would you choose neither though?

Love the Sheogorath suit.

Since everything that happens has it's subjective & objective reason for happening, I would say that everything is predetermined. It's just impossible to process the whole amount of data in order to predict most of the things.

@Yorushima

3 ай бұрын

Granted I'm not particularly good at speech comprehension but I thought his point was that in a general outlook, choices that free will cover are often composed of pre-determined steps that are observable. The near future is easily predictable because recent and immediate general choices that were made (and often cannot be reversed) pushed it into a common pattern that are associated with those choices but the distant future is less so because the choices that would begin to establish any observable patterns have yet to be made. For instance...and I'll stop with those two words. Those two words indicate an upcoming analogy, which you can predict will be some hypothetical example that connects to my first paragraph and tries to convince you of the point I made. But without them, it's within possibility that I'll switch to a different wording that sets the road to criticize your statement, go off on a meaningless tangent, use a different wording to start a different analogy, or completely forego the paragraph and end my statement right there. I have the active choice to continue into the next paragraph, but once I start writing it, I'm forced to narrow down my flow of wording to a predictable pace. Immediate patterns are easily observable and can be rightfully identified as pre-determined, but they stem from decisions made previously before they were caught by real-time restrictions and thus are comparatively free. Thus, it's possible to exercise free will by making and sticking to a decision that will not be fully realized until a long time later or by performing an action that outright ignores the confines of pre-determined patterns.

I don't always agree with JP but I always learn something when he speaks. It is hard to believe some people want to silence him.

Here, let me help with this simple high school algebra equation: aX(aX)+bX+c = 0 With just three known variables for a,b, and c, there are two solved states for the value of X (I am not going to write a mathematics textbook in the comments here, consult yours for 'quadratic equations' for more detail) How many variables at the Big Bang? If three variable in a complex equation result in one of two outcomes being true, how many more diversions will the expanding universe take, moment by moment? How many more potentially true states .. and what is the mechanism that determines which of a magnificent array of possible outcomes becomes the reality that we can observe and interact with? Is it .. _consciousness?_ .. So, although the potential solved states for the universe are calculable in theory, all quantities knowable (again, in theory) and everything determined by the patterns established upon creation .. free will is STILL happening. My credentials? I'm just a red neck tree farmer, with a massive library, and way too much free time.

Oddly enough I believe this is where our biggest issue with general intelligence systems resides. On some fundamental level, all knowledge is arbitrary. As Peterson describes, you see "patterns that are functional." The object itself doesn't exist, not really. The term and label and associations are all constructed and cemented in our minds. This pattern continues all the way up the chain into language itself, which itself is only a system of pattern recognition but a great example of what he's talking about. The function of language only exists because we ultimately decide an arbitrary meaning associated with a word, and then use that meaning in contexts (read: another level of abstraction but pattern recognition on arbitrary definitions all the same) to build further. So in AI systems like GPT, the system requires a human-coached weighting system to even function. Because it's designed only to mathematically predict the next relevant word based on statistical probability of relation. But context changes these probabilities dramatically. This is where the weighting comes in. But it doesn't inherently know what these different contexts are, because these different contexts are arbitrary. They're decided by us, and it's only trying to mimic us. Or more specifically act as though it's mimicking us. It doesn't actually understand what it's doing. It doesn't actually know the context. It can't determine for itself what an appropriate likelihood is of a word being related because it doesn't have the sub-structure of layers and layers of context patterns that it's using to modify its weights on the fly. And if we were to try to simply retrofit GPT with the ability to adjust its weights, it'd go off the rails entirely. I say all of this to circle back on the original point -- the functional patterns appear deterministic. But it's where I believe the real breakthrough lies. It's in what we do on a functional level that is so subconscious we don't even give it thought, so it remains invisible to us. And in that way, we can't even begin to engineer a system that behaves like it, because it's invisible to us. But if we could algorithmically reproduce a model for an entire dynamic decision making process, just represented logically with patterns, we'd have a starting point. Our current model, however, totally disregards this approach entirely.

Very beautiful and insightful but it's too much code switching. He moves from descriptive or mathematical language (describing what is) to perceptual or teleological language (describing how things seem and their aims or relations as pertaining to other perceptual beings). It's fine to suppose that perception changes our definition of reality. Absolutely. In many ways perception is the only reality we can truly know and discuss. And it does seem like thay can only be coherent, can only exist, within the framework of a finite conscious mind with this translational nature. This nature within us that doesn't react machinelike, bitlike, to every input (one to one) but rather simulates and extracts abstract patterns and applies them in some finite way to a horizon of possibility. Which indeed does grow more nebulous and eventually disappears at the borders of our finite ability to perceive. But this is once again a description of how things seem to conscious perceived. It's fully a part of reality--but to propose that it's not determined.... Or not nested in mathematical structure.... To propose that conscious perception somehow acts EXTERNAL to mechanics yet influences them.... That's another thing entirely. Thus far there doesn't seem to be any reason to suppose consciousness could influence matter without itself being part of material law. The very concept seems incoherent. It defies what we understand about causality and interaction. So it seems he's trying to claim that perceptual reality is undetermined simply because our finite perception can't comprehend the infinite interconnected math of all the universe--but this describes what we experience, not how it comes about.

@alterego157

4 ай бұрын

He's always all over the place. He just hopes waving hands and a word salad will be enough to impress.