I really appreciate the brevity of Jeff's videos. You just get Jeff and what he has to say! No needless glossy intros, unrelated-to-the-subject instrument noodling, no 'clickbait' titles, no beating about the bush waiting for the actual meat of the content... Thank you!

Talking about groove reminds me of how great Jeff plays on Bruford album One of a Kind. Everyone needs to listen to that if they haven't. Amazing fusion with Jeff & Bill Bruford (of Yes)

@luke125

2 жыл бұрын

Love that record

Jeff I just had to say that you are a badass bass player. (They used to always say on your albums "Apparently Jeff Berlin still uses Badass bass bridges"). You know I learned your solo to Water On The Brain (Part 2) from Allan Holdsworth's Road Games album when I was 17. And I'm a guitar player! That's how badass you are Jeff. Thanks for the inspiration and also the great teaching chops. You have to be able to do to teach and you are awesome Jeff! 😎

Thank you so much for adding subtitles to your video. It’s a great help for this deaf bassist here. Great job!

His analogy to word types is so simple but so accurate.

Absolutely fantastic lesson. Not only showing what to play but giving us some wisdom/strategy behind it - super helpful!

Thats what i like about Jeff. He shows you practical examples to show his point

Thanks Jeff. Your truly a Great music Instructor. You definitely have the passion to teach people ( musicians ) the best way you know. With all the experience you have. It’s fantastic that you’re passing down your musical wisdom…. Thank you.

Jeff, thanks much for sharing your logical and challenging insights !

Thank you for the videos. Hope they will keep coming. I now have the idea to where should be focused to be a good bassist

Excellent point made here and explained in a way anyone can understand. Some may disagree, but in the context which you suggest, it makes perfect sense to me. Thanks for so generously sharing your knowledge, Jeff.

Makes perfect sense!! Never thought about that. Spot on, Jeff!!

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you Bruce! Until recently, I don't recall anyone in music discussing groove with such fever as seems to happen today. A groove is just one part of the varied parts of a great bass performance. Thanks again for your comment.

Thank you so much. This is valuable and I wish I had known before. You are so generous with your knowledge.

Makes a lot of sense... Thank you Jeff!!!

Always a pleasure to hear a clearly articulated, carefully laid-out bass exercise that is precisely laid-out.

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you becrich. New thinking can be helpful to people. I hope that this is the case here. Take care.

Thank you Jeff for these vids you knowledge is so valuable

always worth listening to your perspectives. we'd be foolish not to.

Amazing videos. Thanks a lot from Spain.

This is a wonderful lesson Jeff! I know some might disagree but they are many who agrees. Carry on with your teaching.

Nice lesson Jeff thanks for posting

Fantastic!!

I've always knew this in the back of my mind to be true. Thank you Mr. Berlin to reinforced the concept.

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you Massimo. Good luck with your music and your bass playing.

@terni12masfusion

5 жыл бұрын

I'm a drummer Mr. Berlin. Perhaps next life I will choose the bass. All the best!

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

Ah, apologies!!!!

@terni12masfusion

5 жыл бұрын

No worries. Thank you for the continued inspiration!

Excellent Jeff thanks for posting

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you for your thoughts Paul.

Thank you Jeff!

Thank you Jeff for the very intellectual and sophisticated approach towards these two notions, presenting a clear, concise and convincing argument.

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

I am glad that you got something positive from the video. Wishing you well Geoff.

I love this guy !!!

Brilliant thank you!

I think you stated some good points there.Thanks for that.

best teacher in the world

Brilliant !

Thanks Jeff!

This is pretty spot on from my personal perspective, and in my experiences growing up. I learned harmony, forms, the parts that were needed from the bass to complete the picture, etc. Learned how to hear intervals, used that to transcribe, and ultimately I learned how to play responsively ( in terms of time, and playing to what others were doing) by playing in interactive situations. I sorta feel like that's how everyone learns, but I noticed there seem to be fewer opportunities than there were in the 80's-90's for young startups to really cut their teeth on a gig.

couldnt agree more. learn the notes first, play it on loop, internalize the notes, put it on muscle memory, than the groove will follow automatically

i have respected Jeffs playing since the 1970s. I now feel rather prevaliged so have such direct access to what he has to say. It is always worth spending the time and considering what he says.

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

What a nice thing to share pho2. My interest is to only offer thoughts regarding the learning/teaching part of bass. I rarely mention playing as this is one's personal choice inspired by their artistic vision.

Jeff, I have a new found respect for you.

Well said Jeff! Love that you show 'balance' of several behaviors to achieve a groove. Dee whole is equal to dee sum of dee parts

Nr. 2 applies mainly to improvising musicians who won't always know exactly what notes are coming next during their solo. In that situation, as far as I'm concerned, it makes sense to give groove priority over note choice.

thank you Jeff

Love ya man! Been a fan since I heard you on the Bruford stuff. Keep on keepin' on Jeff!

Keep em comin Jeff!

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you BRS.

Absorbing and thought provoking video with a hilarious finish! :)

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

Two groovers walked into a bar............. Seriously, thank you for your thoughts.

I like how u on each lesson put emphasis on learning the notes on bass and how the rest comes after. Of course it's true. The thingy is that when u first pick up the bass u see it as a toy and u just wanna have fun with it. Nobody cares at first on learning music, but playing 'with' the bass. And yes some ppl, in time, as they are learning how to play the bass they don't focus anymore on notes and music education because as long as there are tabs available its much easier to play and learn songs (not talking about jazz here =) ). I know I did that and after 8 years of playing bass I started to feel that gap and lack of knowledge because i couldn't advance further and i started to take music lessons. Anyway... keep up the good work Jeff! U inspired me and u continue to inspire...thank you!

Jeff you came out with a floppy record in the 80s from guitar magazine and THAT RECORDING IS THE RECORDING, THAT I WISH U COULD DEMONSTRATE ONE DAY AGAIN thanks

Great stuff!

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you Peter. I'm glad that you got something positive from the video. Regards, Jeff

This is pretty much the Zappa "eyebrows" concept. Learn the music to an almost overkill level, then and only then are you able to start adding the attitude or "putting the eyebrows on it". The yellow shark with ensemble modern is a great example. Incredibly well rehearsed....and full of confidence, attitude and groove.

Very Logical. I Like It!

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

It pleases me that logic wins out over belief. Best of luck with your music.

Jeff, I recently learned the melody for A Night In Tunisia, But I learned the rhythm with a single note so I could play it in time before I plugged the notes in. Dave LaRue told me also to learn the melody before I start to solo over it because this helps you understand the changes a lot better.. Love these videos by the way.

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

My only contribution is my personal feeling that knowing the melody doesn't really add to how we solo on the chords of a song. I know that this is a popular view of learning. But, I've talked with enough players about this over the years to find that a lot of people think about this as I do. Also I don't remember any exercise about navigating through chord changes where a song's melody figured into the soloing exercise. However, I love playing melodies on my bass. So I guess that one can enjoy doing this as well.

Such a great teacher and I love the Passion for teaching and for wanting people to learn to play/perform the right way. If my goal is to inspire and move people with my instrument, I'd better learn how to use it to it's full potential. Just like a writer, the words chosen, the cadence, inferences, etc., are done with skill and it's done deliberately so that the reader may be moved.

Now I think I get what you mean. I got the distinction between learning and performing. Yeah!

Great point and lesson! Keep them coming.

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you Scott. I feel that when bass players start to question the validity of popular learning and playing methods, then some positive change might come to everyone who wishes to improve. I truly hope that people benefit from those changes.

I would love to see him and victor talk about this.

@JariBehm

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, they have opposite view about importance of groove :)

Thanks Jeff. I think I know why many systems focus on groove first. 1. Grooving is fun and it's easy. You can instantly make 'music' and feel that you have achieved something. 2. Learning the notes is (allegedly) hard and academic (i.e. not fun). You want a bunch of students to come to your courses - make it fun, with quick results. Tell them they have to 'go back to school' and learn all the notes on the neck? Sounds like school days to me.

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

It IS school days. Everything that is learned is school days. Learning music is not supposed to be fun. It isn't supposed to be painful either. Learning correctly just IS and part of being an adult over 18 is that if we want to acquire something, we have to work for it. No one ever died or went crazy by learning music correctly. And, the best part is that learning correctly is an addition to your musical day. No one should ever stop playing or listening to any music that gives them joy. Being taught well provides everyone a foundation in music that lasts for life. I encourage everyone think on this because you are not being taught correctly if you are told that learning can be fun. Again, learning jus is what it is. Cheers.

@curtisunit

5 жыл бұрын

@@lumpyjazz quote of the year :) " No one ever died or went crazy by learning music correctly."

Jeff, please keep on debunking schoolyard myths.

Makes complete sense to me Jeff.

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you arthurmee. :)

What an amazing class, Jeff! You just debunked a myth that was well stuck in my head, but your argumentation was solid enough to make me reconsider. And, in fact, when we talk to each other, the words we use are the most important part of the communication, not the rhythm in which we say them. Of course, if you talk too slow or too fast it would be bad, and, of course, rhythm is actually important in music, but not more important than the harmony or the melody. Warm regards from Brazil! :-)

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

Debunking is a good thing. But, an even better thing is that you give thought to my comments. Don't just accept them at face value or else you (for example) could be doing the same thing with me as many others do with their bass teachers, which is, trusting every word as if they are without flaw. So, starting with me, just ponder my thoughts a little bit. If, afterward, my views make sense, then embrace them. Cheers.

@DiogoBaeder

5 жыл бұрын

lumpyjazz indeed. My comment was because your argument there was pretty solid, otherwise I'd just have ignored it - since it would have been more comfortable to me to keep my previous belief in the property of the groove.

So I played schools days in Bflat for a minute. What happened was, I was able to get most of the notes right. But I made a mistake, I played a wrong note, and that caused me to loose the groove of the song as I reacted. What that told me was exactly what Jeff is trying to say in this video. That groove can’t come before any aspect of performance on bass or any instrument, because mistakes in any aspect of performance can affect groove and vice versa. Just like when you learn anything, there is a structure to what’s useful and when/why it is, music is no different. Saying groove is the most important thing on bass paying is a useful mindset only because of misinformation. It is more important to lay down the sonic floor of the band when playing bass than playing noodly solo bits. But when you do this, you’ve already learned the notes of the song you’re playing, that’s how your able to focus on rhythmic aspects of playing bass. You can’t focus on the impact of a paragraph in a novel if you don’t know what a paragraph is, music shouldn’t be approached any differently. I think too many people get put off by what Jeff is saying because he doesn’t say the same stuff a lot of our heroes are saying. The thing is, that a lot of what they try to teach is the overall mindset of playing music, not the process of understanding music and applying that knowledge to performance and practice. I’m not saying that these people mean to do any harm, it’s just that they already worked their way through a lot of the concepts Jeff is trying to explain in his teachings. They often just aren’t aware of these things because of the overall complexity of music theory. Thing is, it doesn’t have to be that hard! If we just learned it like we learn everything, that’s what Jeff is trying to do, not try to be pretentious and famous. Thanks Jeff, your contributions to music education have meant a lot to me and I’m a teacher myself.

@ZENSIBLE

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the 📙

This guy is of the highest caliber there is. Immaculate player.

If you want groovy music for dance or just because you like to listen to it, then groove is the most important thing. A satisfactory groove can be made by just playing a drum kit or bass percussively with no pitch variation at all. I would say all else is secondary to groove.

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

Interesting thoughts SA. But, realize that it gets kind of boring dancing only to a drum kit. I don't think that this is how dance music is presented. I thought that it was mostly electronic music. As bass players (since I play one and teach this instrument) even in dance music, every bass player has to first know what the notes are before they can groove on them. True?

@JonnyJayJonson

4 жыл бұрын

Stranger Angel, I see where you're coming from but that's a very limited musical situation you've described... I think it's a pretty desperate idea myself but, hey, music is personal and I guess that's what you like. Nonetheless, why this obsession with 'groove', when what you're talking about is a just drums and bass playing an ostinato. Yes, you can sit on one note all day (any note you like I guess) and therefore not have to trouble yourself with learning a melody. Where can you go from there though? Maybe you'll have a soloist to play something over the top... Who will presumably have to know something about rhythm and melody to produce anything musical or 'groovy'. And finally, Jeff wasn't talking about dancing to music, he's talking about playing.

It is useful to note that playing wrong notes corresponds directly with making a goofier face. @3:30 will provide an accurate representation! Excellent lesson!

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

Both my wife and my son do imitations of my face when I play. I am one ugly $%^%$#$#@@#$% :)

A rapper can’t rap or freestyle if they don’t know the lyrics or words that rhyme. This is Jeff’s point

Myth buster of music

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

Hi Mario. Your comment made me sit up and take notice. Because, essentially, I feel the same way. My decades of training include serious violin instruction for a decade, studies at Berklee when the manner of teaching there was different than it is today, private studies with Ritchie Beirach, Randy Brecker, Madame Chaloff, and finally a 20 year relationship with Charlie Banacos. I won't include other forms of study that I've engaged in.I am not a better bassist than anyone. I am not a better anything than anyone. Except that I see myself as having a longer and deeper music education than anyone who plays my instrument, right up to this summer when I began composition studies with a teacher at Belmont College. I have a view of how everyone, practically 100% of all bassists would improve if they wish to. Cheers, Jeff

@mariocortes3632

5 жыл бұрын

lumpyjazz thanks for the reply!! What are you doin is a invaluable gift to musicians, especially bassist, very rare to see a top of the line bassist teaching the real deal! Thanks Jeff!!

Genius

Correct.

Wise thoughts, common sense should always apply

wonderful jeff fancy a run in the park its my new philosophy

One thing I've regarded when regarding Jeff's videos is his high regard for the word "regard". Regard for yourself.

Interesting thought piece even though I will still always focus on groove first. Focusing on notes during practice makes focusing on the groove easier during performance, and so does playing with a metronome or tapping very regularly with your foot. Focusing on groove as #1 can have awesome results; if groove defined as hearing all the rythmic subdivisions going on in the music, and locking in with something very interesting that goes really well with the way people are dancing... It's the most rewarding thing! To me that is why people say focus on the groove first. However, I learned more from this lesson just to hear it in a way that sounded opposite/ different.

@markfoster_mkfbass

2 жыл бұрын

How can you focus on groove first when you literally don't know a piece of music? Whether you are a learning a bass line or a horn solo or some random melodic phrase, by ear OR by reading it from a piece of music, you are learning notes FIRST, followed by where to play them on the instrument(fingerings, positions, shifts, etc.)and how to play them(dynamics, articulations, etc)...Not being rude or snarky, just reiterating Berlin's astute point. If you want learn a piece of music REALLY WELL, start out by playing small chunks of it super slowly and NOT in tempo-slowly enough to play it correctly and a small enough chunk to achieve that goal. I-and many students I have had-have wasted countless hours on NOT practicing SLOWLY enough to actually learn how to play a piece of music correctly, out of time...JB is right: you can't "groove first" when you don't know and/or can't play the notes that are supposed to be "grooving"! OF COURSE you can pay attention to groove and beat placement and a host of other rhythmic nuances AFTER you can execute the notes that will be expressed in those ways...As he says, it's quite an obvious and logical point...Just my 2 cents' worth... Happy Playing to you!

Your view is so different to Victor's which is itself very interesting

Best bass teacher on YT. Berlin, Vai, Satriani, Petrucci, etc. What did they put in the water on Long Island?

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

CAWFEE!

@lanechange2795

5 жыл бұрын

lumpyjazz A fellow Lawn Guylander?

He's right.

I think this thinking comes from one of Victor Wooten's teachings. But I think he was more talking about if you make a mistake, and not as a overall concept for playing. Some people may have just taken it too literally. Both are completely important. I always find your thoughts on music and musicality really interesting. Keep up the cool videos Jeff. Cheers

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

I certainly don't wish to criticize any individual for their views and I feel that I never do. My views always are directed at points of thoughts, methods or philosophies already made public via videos or written comments. I am also available to be criticized for my educational views. Read klassmusic video's comments below. Ultimately, our words have meaning and I hope to inspire a change in how many electric bass players view learning. I really feel that they are not the beneficiaries of sound advice and instruction.

@SeanRosati

5 жыл бұрын

Victor actually says the opposite. Groove over everything. "wrong and strong"

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

I'm not sure how validating poor musicianship is constituted as a positive thing just because one might play wrong notes with conviction. As a teacher of music, I would think that it benefits students and players by teaching them to be "right and strong" since this, too, is an option that any music teacher can choose to share with their students. Frankly, I've never heard of anyone that teaches that tells anyone that it is OK to play incorrectly just as long as you do it in time.

@Groovemyster

5 жыл бұрын

@@lumpyjazz Totally fine to have your opinion. I think that music only has guidelines. Maybe you should watch the video im actually referring to, it comes across that you haven't

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

@@Groovemyster Thank you for your thoughts. Music in how it is taught has little to no guidelines. It is specific and noninterprable. That's the beauty of it. Art is interprable.

Jeff, could you talk about playing with Bill Bruford's drums?

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

It was great! He was such an individual drummer, having his own sound and even his own subtle shadings of rhythm.

@MrDiscordinated

5 жыл бұрын

lumpyjazz Berlin & bruford oh my Lord ,proper buisness

Here's what my (small) experience tells me... When I know what notes to play, I can (somewhat) make them groove; when I don't, I can't... In other words, it's a lot harder (for me, anyway) to make the "wrong" notes groove...

Great lesson, Jeff, thanks. I've been a fan since Gradually Going Tornado, and the crux of your teaching here applies to any melodic instrument, I reckon: you have to know the notes.

Mind-blowing common sense!!!

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

For me, being taught how to play the electric bass has been changed into something unrewarding. I've never been quite sure why teaching the bass has been deliberately morphed from proven solid methods into something else. I don't wish to cause harm by my videos and comments. I wish to cause change with them. Thank you for your kind comment.

@KeithCopeland778

5 жыл бұрын

No harm done from my perspective! I've always appreciated your honesty and keeping it real. Please continue doing what you're doing. Shake up the bass world the way Muhammad Ali shook up the boxing world!

👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿

weloveYOU

Well stated. Too many times bandmates will want to feel/hear the groove sacrificing the notes.

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

I think that this is because they are influence by a message that groove is paramount in performance. Most teachers with a background in music learned off the bass might share with you that this is not true.

Jeff, while I agree with most of your insights and your approach to teaching and playing, I'm curious: Why "Lumpy Jazz?"

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

Ha! One day, outside of a gig on a break, pianist/bassist Richard Drexler were hanging out. As a joke, I asked Richard if he he enjoyed soft jazz. He responded by saying that he preferred playing hard jazz. I then commented that I enjoyed lumpy jazz. The name appealed to us both and I started to use it.

But it’s groove that makes.it fees good, the payoff for the hours work put in first

To extend the language analogy, let's say notes are words. A passage is a sentence. In spoken language, the order of words can be compared to a line of notes. What is paramount in both is "order". Mix up words & nonsense is spoken. Mix up notes & the musical language breaks down. To follow the logic, knowing the notes in correct order comes first. Even before time. Then comes time. That is mechanical time & mechanical time does NOT groove. Groove comes last, I agree, in the sequence of learning. Good video.

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you Steve. I only felt the need to clarify this because the notion that groove counts first and even exclusively is not a sound message of either learning or playing to embrace. Regards, Jeff

@holdencaustic

5 жыл бұрын

You broke it down very well-known agreed

If there is any such hierarchy, I hope TIMING or TIME would be before anything. You can know the notes all day, but if you cannot feel the time or know it, would be like running on ice 😂🤣

@JonnyJayJonson

4 жыл бұрын

Absolutely! And 'groove' can't exist without good timing. Correct melody + time equals groove! I like how Jeff says groove is a reward, it's that feeling that it's all working.

It really depends. The right notes/ wrong groove sounded better. People dance on the groove. The right groove/ wrong notes was better to dance to. Of course, doing both right is ideal

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

My thinking is that people with a couple of drinks in them will dance to anything, good or bad. I'm being a little facetious here, but realize that an ostinato bass part played in 4/4 is the easiest form of live playing that one can enter into. Bassists still growing as players will get people to dance even if they are close to the downbeat rather than on it. I agree with your last though; doing both right is ideal... :) :) :)

The best thing is the derf-wad face he makes when he's playing the wrong notes on purpose.around 3:38.

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

I was hoping that people might get something a little more out of the video than my silly expressions.

I think that the two issues, knowing your notes "and" groove are not mutually exclusive.

@JonnyJayJonson

4 жыл бұрын

Can you expand?

i think it's not that simple - this is the way i interpret "groove is more important than note": a root-note in time is better than any fancy chord-tone out-of-time So as a beginner, as long as you can only play the root in time - stick with it!

@allgems

5 жыл бұрын

True,but you're talking about a "correct" root note. Missing that note by a half step will sound a lot worse than that fancy chord tone that's out of time.

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

A fancy chord tone out of time is an artistic choice. In practicing, it could be a mistake. This defines the opposites of learning and playing. Good luck with your choices Werner. Thank you for sharing.

@plazmatic954

5 жыл бұрын

allgems A great player will almost always find a way to make a wrong note work.

@hamiltonmays4256

5 жыл бұрын

lumpyjazz fantastic explanation- great depth AND breadth of thought. You seem to have a knack for explaining complex concepts clearly and concisely, while still providing enough context to demonstrate their relevance. Kudos and stuff. Call me subscribed.

@allgems

5 жыл бұрын

I'm aware of that. Werner is talking about beginners. Sometimes,no matter how you resolve it,it still doesn't sound good.

I'm going to have to disagree. U can play the correct notes with the wrong feel and it'll feel wrong. And in a live jam session sitting in situation, if they're playing a song you don't know its wise to fish for that note/key while grooving. instead of randomly trying to find it. I understand the point trying to be made, and it makes sense. but groove/feel is what makes the music. u can play "happy birthday" with the wrong notes but the correct feel/phrasing and it'll still be recognizable. Lastly, on top of that, anybody can know/learn the "right" notes to play, not everyone can Lock in to a groove.

@1hcsihp4

5 жыл бұрын

Yes a melody with wrong an is recognizable. Wrong rhythem, phrasing is also recognizable (all within reason). Mr. Berlin was referring to how it relates to the learning process. Not real time performance, in a performance missed note are less obvious.

@SeanRosati

5 жыл бұрын

kausmo tumynski just a professional working musician with an opinion based on experience that’s all. Feel free to disagree, makes no difference to me.

@SeanRosati

5 жыл бұрын

1hcsihp4 right, makes sense for the learning process yes.

"Walk before you groove, mofos."--Jeff's unofficial TA.

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

Groove is actually inevitable if we first learn how to play correctly. Almost every bassist in history that we all have listened to shows this. Groove is not a Bootsy principle. The word refers to how music feels when being played in a variety of styles.

Fantastic Bassist? Yes! Great singing voice? Well....

Funny how two very awesome Bass players have two totally different opinions. Whatever works for the individual I guess

@kevgamble

4 жыл бұрын

They are very different messages. "Know what you're doing and learn the music, then you'll be able to enjoy the groove" is a different message than, "if you don't know what you're doing, here's the most effective way to fake it".

My band teacher once said you have to always do 2 things, be in tune and be on time. If you mess up either, you sound like doo doo. Besides, if you hit a bad note, bend it up !

NO COMMENTS

as a guitar player I prefer a grooving simple bass line over a non-grooving complicated line any day. A linear, boring bass line can hardly spark a creative moment in an actual band situation. Yes, groove and notes are of equal importance "in theory". When it comes to the feeling though, it is a different story. Jeff sometimes over elaborates these things.

@JonnyJayJonson

4 жыл бұрын

Personally, I think you've completely missed Jeff's point. Yeah, of course there's nothing wrong with a 'simple' bassline, I'm totally behind that. Depends what you consider a simple bassline I guess. But you still need to know the notes, surely? I presume you like a bassist who plays something melodically related to what you're doing? Even if it's all root notes, you want them to be the right notes, yeah? Even if you're written a one chord song, you want your bassist to recognise that and play a note that sits with your chord? Or as long as the bassist is fine rhythmically, you'll overlook bum notes, or total ignorance/disregard of what you're playing on guitar?

To me, it's not logic at all. In the first half of the video, he says groove is last in hierachy of musical aspects. 3 Minutes later he states, that all aspects are equal. Then he says a verb is not more or less important than an adverb and that there is no hierachy of words in grammar/language. That's not true. An adverb is a word to further describe a verb. You can construct a basic sentence ( subject, verb, object) without an adverb. But you cannot make a sentence using an adverb without a verb.......

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

Hi klassmusic. In the area of learning, groove is last because one has to first learn the notes before they can play them. In performance, playing music is a spontaneous event, usually playing music that one already learned. Here, groove is equal with every other musical component or element of performance. I don't want the important message of this video to be lost on you because of my mistake in explaining grammar (sometimes, I don't talk so good :) ). Let me clarify my statement if it makes my groove video easier to understand. A verb is no more and no less important than a noun. In another comparison, a brake is no more and no less important than an accelerator pedal. I hope that this helped to make my thoughts clearer for you. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

@basserx78

5 жыл бұрын

He's lying, and that's the truth.

@michaelwilson2340

5 жыл бұрын

Now I've got a headache.

1:40 "We usually keep going" - yes, this is exactly what ppl mean by saying groove is more important. If you haven't done your homework and find yourself searching for the right notes, keep the groove, because it's more important to the ensemble as a whole. You just demonstrated that. And your language metaphor is false, because language is not constructed out of building blocks of equally important information. For instance: "Jff Brln pls bss" is more understandable than "E Ei ay a". The same principles apply to grammar and syntax. And at 3:37 you ask us to compare two performances: one where you get the groove AND the notes wrong, and one where you play both groove and notes correctly. This makes no sense and trying to make a point this way is stupid. To me it seems you've taken some statements out of context and intentionally misinterpreted them just to have something original to say. 1 out of 10, would not watch again. PS I did enjoy your work with Bruford.

@kevgamble

4 жыл бұрын

I see flaws in your observations and analysis. "If you haven't done your homework and find yourself searching for the right notes, keep the groove" - not being able to do one of the two things properly only leaves the other option, which is not an argument that it's more important. If it's all you have left, of course it's what you should do. The point here is to put learning the right notes first, so you don't have to be a faker on the gig. If you know the notes, then getting in the groove is the "reward", as Berlin calls it - you can enjoy the groove because you're not hunting for notes you don't know how to play. Saying groove is more important because you can get away with faking your way through it is strange - it sounds like its "importance" is mainly in concealing one's lack of preparedness. If you play the right notes, you can go out of time for a moment as well to create an effect until you get back on track. Both components have to be in place for things to work optimally, as he says. I think you also miss the boat on the language metaphor and use a dubious one yourself. His metaphor involves different classes of words, while you use letters, which are one thing, not two. Your "more understandable" example has more information in it than the second one, so it's a meaningless comparison. On the comparison of the two performances, he takes a moment to get up to speed, because he's improvising a "wrong note" performance on the spot. But then he gets into the correct rhythm the second time around. Listen again.

@kevgamble

4 жыл бұрын

@Eggy Noggy But would an audience enjoy a whole performance of wrong notes played in time? I'm guessing that example he played lasted only a moment. And is it a valid basis for learning anything other than how to cover up one's lack of preparation? It's kind of a meaningless hypothetical. If you "groove" your way through not knowing the notes, you're just faking it. That makes "the groove is more important" advice for when you haven't done what you're supposed to do. Berlin addresses this in the video, by saying groove is important, but that the music needs all the elements working together for it to function. Wooten's example shows that if you're missing one, what you're left with isn't sustainable. What sounds cool for a moment is just faking it 'til you return to playing the right notes, without which the music has nothing to say.

@kevgamble

4 жыл бұрын

@Eggy Noggy Cheers. I watched the video. What I took from it is that both versions sounded bad, because both were missing something important. I think in his "right notes wrong feel" version, he overdid the technique for effect. But really, neither one was a satisfying result that anyone would enjoy. I think the only real applicable lesson is that if you don't know what you're doing, grooving can help you fake it because it's easier to bluff your way with rhythm. This doesn't make groove more important, it just shows what your average listener will buy for a few seconds. No one would pay to hear someone, including Wooten, play a set like that. And I don't see how that principle makes someone better at what they do. One other potential takeaway from this is that making mistakes is okay. That's a good human lesson. But he muddies it by suggesting we "only practice right" - when practice is when we *aspire* to right but also create a space where mistakes are okay. If everything is okay and we aspire toward nothing, then there's no learning.

He’s created a straw man. No one claims that groove comes literally before learning the music. He admits “For the most part bass players already know their music; they know what they are supposed to play.” He doesn’t even bother to define what it is that is last on his list of importance: groove.

c'mon guys, what credible musician doesn't know that by common sense if anything? this is a waste of 7 minutes, overelaborating on a simple and self-evident point. It's like someone giving you a two hour lecture on how to boil an egg!

@lumpyjazz

5 жыл бұрын

Hi x. I prefere to not assume what someone knows. While some understand certain things about learning and playing, others might not. Example: You surely know certain facts that I don't. And still I view myself as a credible man of the world. :)

@b00i00d

5 жыл бұрын

my critical phrase was "credible _musician_", not person.

@marcblum5348

5 жыл бұрын

There is no such thing as "common sense".

Bullshit!