The only change to the Elf arsenal I would make is have the Moonfire do aoe on a full charge shot, certainly doesn't have to pull numbers like when it first came out but I really miss that part.

@zexedearth89

6 ай бұрын

They should just increase the spamability by two more shots if they leave it like this, cus its pathetic otherwise, 'specially in Chaos Wastes.

@SmGTwist

6 ай бұрын

@@zexedearth89 There are ways to build around it, but it does need a slight bit of tweaking so that it can fit into builds instead of *having* to build around it.

@derpysean1072

6 ай бұрын

Moonfire bow does not do more damage on a full charge. I think it is trash tier now. The aoe charge shot is aa great idea.

@RichardRichardman

6 ай бұрын

​@@derpysean1072It does actually, it has two more dps ticks than a quick charge shot. Pretty sure you can 1shs all cata specials with the right breakpoints, or come very close if not

@prich0382

6 ай бұрын

Nah make it like Core's mode one, you get even less shots now, but it tracks enemies that you tag and it goes for the head, also charges slower.

Im okay with it being made a bit less "this is the best weapon for elf", i feel like they've kinda nuked it though. Now it just feels like the longbow is the only weapon worth taking.

Hey man. Could you do a Chaos Wastes boons tier list? There is none on the internet and I think a lot of people would be interested.

@Diablo-tk4yj

6 ай бұрын

There is a video from another youtuber making a chaos wastes guide in which he also ranks boons, some of the boons were removed, but majority is still there kzread.info/dash/bejne/eJOjs8aagbu2c7Q.html

@WetMagic

6 ай бұрын

It's definitely something I would consider doing! Probably not anytime soon though. Just too much to talk about with all the recent changes. Those will have my attention for some time.

@olenhol2przez4

6 ай бұрын

And is very very very subjective. I disagree big time with many "top blessings" that people often talk online

@RexorInvicta

6 ай бұрын

Recover from ledge is meta.

@hooktraining3966

6 ай бұрын

also go into detail on which ones often don't activate or are generally buggy

To me, only the cleave nerf was needed. I don't get why they nerfed the armour damage, it would be just fine as a powerful armour killer that doesn't cleave IMO

@AntiProElite

6 ай бұрын

Stagger nerfe is good too. Staggering a cw Witz your little pointy stick was a joke

At this stage in the game's life cycle. I would rather seem them buff weaker things, than nerf the strongest things. Wanna mention that the only thing I liked with the nerfs. was reducing the Cleave and adding Drop off at range

Kerillian in my opinion still has a problem of variety in her ranged weapon options. Regardless of your feelings on their power and utility, they are mostly just bows. The interesting options often lock you into a single class. Between big bow, smol bow, poison bow or magic bow you usually prefer one and disregard the others. You end up having little choice on what to run.

The melee nerfs are disappointing. The javelin's ability to compensate for a lack of monster or armor dps on the primary melee weapon enabled some cool builds. I'm worried my dual swords builds are dead now...

I feel like this is the exact same as the Moonfire rework situation. I agree that it was too strong, but I think this is overcorrecting it. The cleave reduction and maybe the dmg drop off would've been more than enough. Alarming how they're changing all my favourite elf weapons though. Now I'm afraid to use the Longbow haha :D

I opened the video hoping to see analysis of breakpoints, which is, in practice, the only thing that can answer whether javelin is actually still worth using or not, and was disappointed. Javelin might not be a horde killer (and it's good that it's not anymore), but it's still a weapon whose ranged function occupies same niche under the sun as longbow/moonbow - efficiently dealing with specials. It was a little baffling neither to see an analysis of how it performs (on cata) for special sniping, nor anything more specific than "eh, still does some damage against armor if you're lucky with crits, will work", because it doesn't answer the question in video's title - is it still worth using, or it has no advantage over bows? I'm genuinely looking for analysis and comparison, and what's above is vague rambling with "ee-e-eh, still oka-a-a-ay" conclusion drawn after a few shots against the lich and chaos warrior.

@WetMagic

6 ай бұрын

I rarely do specific breakpoints unless it is part of a build video, but I definitely hear you and could have gone over specials. However, I chose to keep things brief and simple and talk about the major changes. My choice. And also the is it still worth using question is obviously intentionally left unanswered by me because I want people to make up their own mind about it. Sorry you did not like the video.

@user-cs2xn9bv5f

6 ай бұрын

I opened expecting nothing and still was just so dazzled by the fact that he did not show that you can't 1shot headshot Hook Rat with 20% pwr vs Skaven, and instead showed the damage against a blightstormer which usually spawns in the furthest possible place to snipe... The fact that it can't manage what longbow does with less power vs is for me a sign of an inferior weapon unless you are playing on lower difficulties

I think they went too far with the nerf, I like the jav but the long bow is way better. Better range, projectile speed and it's a lot easier and faster to refill your ammo with ult or headshots with the one perk vs having to slowly regenerate them where you can't block while doing so. What I wish they DID change was friendly fire because I would pull back to throw- hit the person behind me that is clearly, not on my screen at all. I even proved it over a discord call with friends. 100% behind me, not in view, and I hit them.

The javelin definitely needed to be reined in, but this is just excessive. It should at least be able to cleave through more than 2 basic enemies FFS.

My biggest complaint is FatShark nerfed the javelins "wrong", when the best most obvious change is literally standing right in front of them. It's a frikkin JAVELIN, why the hell does it shoot straight as a cruise missile?! FS could have just given Javelin a wide arc similar to Throwing Axes and that would have greatly curbed it's performance (it'd still need some nerfs here and there obviously, but the damage could have been preserved) PS - am I the only one disappointed that FatShark didn't give Throwing Axes melee attacks in this patch?

@prich0382

6 ай бұрын

It has drop, idk why you think it doesn't, I hate the drop it has, outside of short to medium range, it's difficult to aim

@dustrockblues7567

6 ай бұрын

The axes should have melee but the javelin arc is fine.

I don't bother with it post-nerf despite really trying to make it work. There's just no compelling reason to run it any more with how much it struggles to hit break points. They've reduced it's utility down to being an infinite ammo special sniper but in that case I'd rather slot Moonfire bow and not have to worry about manually restocking ammo. IMO a cleave nerf would have been sufficient, with all the nerfs piled on it really struggles to find a niche.

Just started playing vermintide not too long ago. Loved the look of the javelin. But didn't get around to trying it out yet.. guess I never will

I didn't like the cleave nerf, it was to me a bit over the top. 80% is bit extreme imo, maybe 50% would have sufficed?.

@WetMagic

6 ай бұрын

I think that’s fair!

@AntiProElite

6 ай бұрын

Nah. Killing a horde with an endless ammo, staggering, special killer weapon Was way too much and destroyed legend pubs. Now you can kill a hookrat in a horde and be fine. I wouldnt have nerfed dmg tho

It not being able to 1shot SV on cata is pretty annoying. You can gvet it to that point by getting some extras power from certain skills, but at that point, I'd rather just take long bow and have easier access to that one shot. A nerf was certainly warranted, but a nerf to literally every aspect? I think well designed weapons are very good at some aspects and not so good at others. So fatshark should have picked one aspect where the javelin is supposed to be better than the rest and leave that aspect alone. I see little reason now to pick jav over moonbow or longbow.

Love you Wet, but testing it on dudes you spawn in that just stand still isn't really worth anything.

@WetMagic

6 ай бұрын

It’s just a look at the biggest changes to the weapon to give people an idea. Not sure how the premise changes if they’re moving. The point is to see how the changes effect the weapon. This is an easy way to observe that.

I used to use it on shade mostly just so I had a ranged special killer and didn't need to worry about ammo, with the nerfs to armor damage and mostly the range I don't feel like the no ammo part of it makes up for the inconsistent damage and would rather just take a longbow or even a moonfire if I am going to be shooting that many times. I agree it was too strong before but I wish they had leaned one way or the other on the nerfs either making it more for big game and special or weaker elites and chaff. I don't think it is useless or even really bad I just don't see it being in competition for a job with other ranged options. If this is some clever scheme to make me use that volley crossbow I would rather have old illusionist monsters back. Great video as always.

No, but Pyromancer finally got buffed so who cares about the Elf *TO ME, AQSHY’S FLAME!!!* 😈😈😈🔥🔥🔥

You should be rewarded for being able to bean a disabler in the head from far away. Now there's no point to aiming for the head against a blightstormer at long distances aside from just basic ammo conservation from conservative shooter. (Also, just buff the throwing axes and reduce their damage dropoff already, ffs) I'm not going to comment on the armor damage changes, if you're running javelin you're probably still running 20% armor and skaven, so you're still hitting 1 shot headshot breakpoints for SV. The cleave nerfs are particularly painful. While it certainly needed a nerf, 80% was way too far. You can't pierce anything but the weakest of trash enemies, and it's gotten to the point that the longbow just overshadows the javelin entirely, even with the benefit of infinite ammo. Now, when considering ranged weapons on waystalker specifically, the javelin is in an even worse position because people can just get ammo for ammo limited weapons back with kurnous' reward. As such, people have just switched to longbow or hagbane, with javelin just being poor in comparison. Don't get me wrong, the javelin still works for killing elites and specials, but that's it. It just works, whereas longbow and hagbane simply feel far better to play, and are outright better anyways. At this point, the only reason I ever use javelin is if I'm running piercing shot to have fun.

I haven't played Vermintide 2 since Darktide released (upgraded my PC almost just for that so I'm getting my money's worth) but I remember enough. The javelin desperately needed nerfs. It was so wildly out of line with the pre-existing throwing weapon. It's just a little shocking to see it dialed back to this pretty average level from where it used to be. This is where it should have been from the start.

@prich0382

6 ай бұрын

It's gone from barely used to now will never be used, great

Hey man, love your vids, could you make a chaos wastes weapon tier list for each character?

To little cleave for my taste. A spear is a heavy weapon with a pretty big " reload" penalty so the cleave (and stagger also) did it for me compared to the reload. Back to longbow for me. I do play CATA+ twitch or deeds or even both. On regular difficulties I guess the nerfs are just fine.

I ran javelin on Shade to deal with specials and for big backstabs, and the damage output simply isn't as impressive as it was. The damage nerf to Shade ability with it combined with the damage nerf against super armor and armor has made it rather tough to get quite as much work in as before. I'm tempted to just switch back to using my melee weapon for backstab damage and running a better special hunter like the longbow now, because the javelin just doesn't feel notably better at backstabbing compared to your melee weapon anymore. If I'm gonna run the javelin, it needs to compete with my melee weapon against single targets, because otherwise it's now just a worse longbow at range (or at least that's how it feels). As it stands, I'm gonna keep facestabbing people with sword and dagger, and do some experimenting to see what ranged weapon I should be running instead. I think the damage nerfs (especially against armor) were overkill, and the nerf to its damage on Shade was unnecessary.

Man I'm gonna miss mowing down hordes on double shot javelin Waystalker 😔

@vladimirpootis3200

6 ай бұрын

I am not. As the dwarf who got a back full of javelin for trying to confront that horde.

@hooktraining3966

6 ай бұрын

Don't worry nobody else will miss you!

@candybetta4061

6 ай бұрын

@@vladimirpootis3200 Can relate as a Slayer main

This brings great joy!

The general survivability of the team as a whole went up with this nerf, so everyone actually got buffed.

i didn't even know that it was broken since i always just used longbow, to see if its worth using compare it to the other options

Nerfing anything is fucking annoying and unjustifiable.

My playstyle as Handmaiden is dead :(

finally a guy with common sense and knows what he's talking about. Thanks, pure gold.

@WetMagic

6 ай бұрын

Thank you!

They overcorrected just like the Moonfire bow. If they just nerfed the cleave and added the dropoff at range it would be fine. A single target, get this big dude off my face now button that doesn't clear a corridor of trash mobs. Right now I see pretty much no reason to pick this over the longbow or even the Hagbane.

I love the Javelin on Legends + Deeds runs but I find them unusable on Cata now. It's not useful versus hordes, it takes way too long to reload considering that it takes 2 shots to body shot any elite and it's hard to snipe with at a distance. The fact that they're unlimited ammo doesn't matter that much anymore considering how the popularity of OE with Trollhammer, WPoS, GK and Sienna lately made ammo less scarce. Just use the Longbow now.

1:14 "...Get Radiant Inheritance going..." Narrator "Radiant Inheritance did not, in fact, go."

@WetMagic

6 ай бұрын

IT WAS A BRAIN FART

Hmm the most important thing about the pierce thing for jav is that you will not be "allowed" to reliably one shoot something that mixes in the horde like hook-rat or alike if there are enemies in front of it or other alike situations where old jav would just pierce to kill like stormvermin etc.... imo it should get more pierce power at close/mid range & lower at longer range with the damage not being affected. like imagine this thing in real life :P it would totally pierce 2-4 people without armor reliably like knife into a butter :P Imo you should also add how it work after you use strength potion or how it calculate range at other classes like waystalker with her longer range effectiveness for ranged weapons. If anything it neaded nerf to ammo count like 1-2 max. thumb up ;)

Me who only plays Waystalker with bow: interesting.

Everything else was ok except the armored damage reduction. Pretty useless against patrols unless you can stand in one place and throw them in peace. At least in chaos wastes.

thoughts on Grail Knight nerf?

Thanks for this video! I was wondering how bad the nerfs were. I use jav mostly on Shade and it is still good, though it feels a bit less powerful

I love FatShark but wow are they bad at balancing OP weapons. I agree that the javs needed some nerf but this is starting to feel like the moonbow all over again. Why can't the gradually roll out changes instead of instantly destroying good weapons?

I don’t think it beats out Moonfire or long bow. Maybe javelin on Shade just for cool edginess. But there are better options in my opinion.

the real question is not if its still worth using. Its if the other options are better than the javelin now like the longbow.

cleave nerf is probably the worst .

how do u get skins for javelin?

@IXFlipyap

4 ай бұрын

Sott pack

what have they done to my poor boy

Seems interesting, i need to try them out again, good video

@WetMagic

6 ай бұрын

Thanks bud.

just like the moonbow, it nerfed to the ground so that nothing on this weapon is good of

When is this game set in the chronology of warhammer? I am not familiar with the franchise.

I think the cleave was what made this my favourite weapon. I don't think I personally will use this anymore and while it is still got it lost that part of the weapon which was the most fun. I would prefer the same cleave but maybe with a slightly slower reload animation or something along those lines. I still want to cleave a line of enemies but I don't mind being able to do it less often.

I'm not running it anymore pretty much only did now and again but yeah kinda sucks paid weapon

I'd honestly trade back a bit of cleave for removing conservative shooter. Being able to farm headshots out of hordes was silly, but now jav feels kinda hard to justify over moonfire (if you're lazy) or longbow (if you're skilled)

They really should bring back the cleave, it was so much fun to use and it wasnt that op imo. Now Jav is just boringe to use, now i use Moonfire bow.

My Sott is useless now...

These nerfs seem so excessive. I can't see the javelin being useful, especially since Kerillian often struggles with armored opponents as it is. Then again, I'm not exactly a top tier player, I'm still trying to succeed in cataclysm, so maybe it's partly a skill issue. I just don't understand why I would use the javelin when I could use the longbow and not have to reload constantly

@twinzzlers

6 ай бұрын

Kerllian is great against them, Waystalker eats them alive and Sister of the Thorn can completely immobilize them.

@SmGTwist

6 ай бұрын

There was a Conservative Shooter Jav build where elf players would spam the jav into hordes clear them all out in a matter of a few javelin tosses *and* wind up with more ammo than when they started. Most elf players didn't curb this playstyle while their team was farming for temp on those hordes, so you'd go in, get 15 temp HP, eat a crit jav to the back, and be worse off than when you started. This nerf curbs the toxicity of the weapon, as that behaviour got a hard shut down.

@twinzzlers

6 ай бұрын

@SmGTwist Besides, if you want to maul elites then you got Waystalker and Shade

@Slashingsword

6 ай бұрын

@@twinzzlers Even a Sister with two stacks of poison can really do work against elites with most of her arsenal.

@twinzzlers

6 ай бұрын

@Slashingsword I never pay attention to the poison lol, but of course she can. I dont think every Kerillian should excel at mauling elite enemies, especially supports. So yeah, this change is for the better. We're also getting PVP soon (not messing with you, we are) so nerfs like that were needed.

Of course they nerfed the damn tree ninja.

Stops at 2 ungor raiders? Yeah just hard no.

"Made the case that it was.. on the verge of being broken" - no, that thing was absolutely ludicrous, to the point that the Waywatcher didn't even need to consider any other kinds of ranged weapons. I'm talking about the level of ridiculousness the moonbow had before the nerf, maybe exceeding even that. Great against hordes, armour, specials and monsters. But it kinda bugs me that they have decided to nerf its armour damage. That's, like, what javelins are kinda supposed to be good against. Now I kinda struggle to find a reason to use javelins for anything since they don't actually excel at anything that other range weapons don't excel at already. I feel like the moonbow is just a better version of them now.

Ссасааать, эльфомейнер 😅

I main elf, glad it got nerfed so I can stop seeing other elfs use it lol, I still use it on HM (the one telent that allows 15% power & speed) that allows me to reload faster and throwing the javilin doesnt lose stacks ( melee boss damage is still decent)

@leilagorrilla4842

6 ай бұрын

Personaly i wasn't playing with it, always prefered moonbow & staff even post nerf. But that javelin nerf was wild, people are just switching to longbow and we still have the same old problem, just reduced. Not a good balancing decision.

Of course it is. I use it on my shade and it's still great.

they call these arrows ???? i hate the new javelin so much... what have they done

I mean... Elf weapons, in general, were so hopelessly busted OP that it was the reason why most "circle-chasers" drifted towards Kerillian in the first place. The Javelin and the Moonfire Bow, in particular, dominated the ranged slots of most if not all elf players. And what compounded the problem was that these are dlc weapons. Anybody who called these weapons "sidegrades" to the vanilla weapons, would be looked at having some sort of mental problem (prior to their nerfs ofc). The Javelin had horde clear, anti-armor and sniping. It is objectively a better Longbow, with "slightly" less range. The Moonfire also had horde clear, anti-armor and sniping. It too was objectively a better Hagbane Bow. The only thing about these weapons is that you can't fire too much of it in one go... BUT YOU HAVE INFINITE AMMO. It was ridiculous and I'm glad it's been patched.

It's a great change. Hopefully all the elfs playing like league of legends AD carries while uninstall now. Jk, they're just playing the new broken thing now, engi... 1 step forward, 2 steps backwards...

Balanced. I don't get the point of play with OP weapons.

You were able to totally bogart a legend map with jav. It's still a good reactionary ranged swap for a melee focused elf, but so is the moonbow. I'm not sure about running it full time on waystalker anymore..

i think the nerfs are needed it was way to strong with it being a melee weapon and a infinite throw damage weapon. i do kinda wish they would buff up a little bit of non armored units i think it should one shot a frenzy unit hit in the head though. but everything else is fine, cause they did take away the multiple targeting's being hit which was needed due to high damage output and infinite ammo. other than that i think its fine.

Needed changes. I haven't touched anything else since this came out.

Console player. Bh stuff was kinda sad. Take the bite away, the dance of death you had to do and the practice of boss headshotting is all void now. Hopefully they change some things I can see it being a change to make way for Versus but that's a huge oversight.

@G1ingy

6 ай бұрын

Why? Landing a headshot on bosses still does massive chunks of damage to bosses even on Cataclysm, and that headshot will still GREATLY reduce the cooldown so you're incentivized to do so...only difference is now you can't perma-stun and kill the boss before it can do anything. That was a great change imo, it was far too easy to pull off.

The only people complaining are people who developed bad habits on elf that now need to shake them off. Im still using Javs on Sister and getting big work and damage out. I'll give my HM Jav/DS build a go as well, but the nerfs aren't going to do anything to my playstyle because I never used javs on hordes. All welcome changes that make the weapon competitive instead of a must-pick.

@jony_tough

6 ай бұрын

Well, kinda. It still feels underperforming, so I just pick weapon that I feel is more rewarding, like longbow or hadbane.

@cHaMp630

6 ай бұрын

Most people that complained about javelins being overpowered just have an elf hate boner because of her voicelines belittling them and don't play on hard enough difficulties that showcase glaring downsides of weapons. Trollhammer, masterwork, curo, and griffon foots are more busted than javelins ever were from a damage dealt perspective. Javelins being a "must pick" were only indicative of how bad and in need a buff the rest of her ranged weapons were.

@jony_tough

6 ай бұрын

Btw dude, what happened to your youtube? The videos were rad.

@cHaMp630

6 ай бұрын

@@jony_tough New house internet = 3-5 hours to upload 20-30 minute long videos = pain. Maybe once they finally get that new fangled fiber internet out here I'll upload stuff again.

@jony_tough

6 ай бұрын

@@cHaMp630 gotcha

The Javelin was so exaggerated and powerful in every way. I always thought it was completely wrong that Fatshark had released it at all. In every way it needed to be changed. It was almost as badly balanced as The Sister was right when she came out. Even though it's been toned down, it's still pretty darn good and could easily be made worse for my sake. I still think it's too powerful.

elfs always been stupidly OP. its the most minor of balances but damn it feels good to see them get nerfed in any way. only took 5 years

The amount of elvish freindly fire me and others have gotten especially by this damned crutch. Happy to see it knocked down a peg and knowing those more toxic pointy ears will suffer greatly from this change. More happy we'll likely be shot by more veried loadouts.

@IXFlipyap

4 ай бұрын

Sword and dagger Longbow

So glad I don’t see mindless jav spam every game now

There was 0 reason to not use Javelin up until now. You want to play ranged focused Waystalker? Take javelin. You want to run boss killer shade? Use Javelin. You want to play a frontliner as Handmaiden? You guessed it, javelin. You could argue it wasnt overpowered but if it outclasses literally every ranged weapon in Kerllians arsenal (none of which are particularly bad) then it deserves a nerf.

Nah bro it doesn't 1 shot everything with infinite ammo and outperform most melee v armored enemies. Its trash. It needs to be a cheat code or its not worth using.

There still a trick with the javelin that you can still stun chaos warriors if you hit them with it enough for you to get around behind and backstab them.