It's ironic then that they stole, that they tried to sink Babylon 5, and yet they only ended up making the best Trek ever in deep space nine and Babylon 5 still turned out to be the masterpiece it is.

@darthXreven

2 жыл бұрын

and CBS still rips off other people's stuff.... I enjoy both shows but B5 is superior.....

@peterg76yt

2 жыл бұрын

Because they stole the best ideas without really understanding them, Straczynski was resopnsible for the creation of two excellent TV series that are sufficiently dissilimar that both can be enjoyed separately.

@minicle426

2 жыл бұрын

I don't really get the big song and dance about DS9.

@migproductions4045

Жыл бұрын

ehrm DS9 is best of nothing x

@robstein67

Жыл бұрын

Agreed... Both are brilliant (although I prefer B5) and we are better having both for sure. Was sad that Crusade got only 1 series as was starting to go in interesting directions.

I liked Walter Koenig as Pavel Chekov - terrific character, but his Alfred Bester was absolutely amazing!

@lightwoven5326

2 жыл бұрын

Walter Koenig legend. He enjoyed B5 far more than Star Trek.

@ninjabearpress2574

2 жыл бұрын

Garabaldi: "Where did you get this information?" Bester: "I'm a telepath...work it out."

@LordOfNihil

2 жыл бұрын

i like when he did star trek renegades (fan film), he effectively brought bester into the trekverse.

@ninjabearpress2574

2 жыл бұрын

@Tom Karais I got the Channel 11 reporter to take a photo of me with Walter. When he came back to town three years later, I had him autograph it. Like I told him, patience is my only virtue.

@jameslucas5590

2 жыл бұрын

Bester was awesome

Ms. Roddenberry actually talked up B5 at a Star Trek convention I had attended many moons ago. That along with my philosophy prof's interest got me hooked.

I like DS9. It presented a "darker" side of the Star Trek universe. But B5 will always have a special place in my heart. It got me through hard times in my teens.

@tatianalyulkin410

3 ай бұрын

There was a lot of " darkness " in my family's history ( Petlyura's pogrom, the Holodomor, the Holocaust ) so DS 9 with its Major Kira, Damar, Garak resonated with me even before the 2014 Coup. But Babylon 5 is my everything.

feud or no feud its was still the 2 best hours of scifi you could watch in the 90s. networks were even so kind as to put ds9 and b5 back to back.

@ninjabearpress2574

2 жыл бұрын

So you could see how DS9 parallels B5.

@LordOfNihil

2 жыл бұрын

@@ninjabearpress2574 i just know it was 2 of the best hours of tv that existed in the 90s. everyone copies everyone, that's pretty normal in entertainment. what is not normal is when the rip off is as good as the original. in the end you got 2 great shows with some vague similarities. im glad it went down this way. i do kind of hope he gets his revenge, with the sorry state of star trek franchise, it would be the icing on the cake if new b5 stole all its viewership. even though im pretty sure scifi fans will watch everything that is good and a lot of stuff that isn't.

@leicesterblackthorne9699

2 жыл бұрын

@@LordOfNihil Too bad he can't get the Orville set in the B5 universe.

@LordOfNihil

2 жыл бұрын

@@leicesterblackthorne9699 ive yet to jump on the orville bandwagon. i was not that impressed with the pilot and so i never continued watching the show.

@darthXreven

2 жыл бұрын

is every fight worth fighting? is every hill worth dying on?? and our survey said 1. NO

Appreciate the cast of DS9 giving B5 their best wishes. Paramount tried, but they couldn't sink the sweet ship B5!

B5 was the best show of it's kind ever. I did enjoy DS9.

@BattlestarX01

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed. It was so obvious

@RichardRahl81

2 жыл бұрын

I enjoyed B5 waaay more than DS9, I was never into DS9 didn't even watch it till many years later

Heartbreaking - I have watched Babylon 5 over 10 times and it is better than anything out there.

@daimonien

2 жыл бұрын

Me too. Ive watched it almost every year over 20 years now :D

@L1VE3V1L

2 жыл бұрын

Try The Expanse. Heavily influenced by B5. But leagues better in every respect. B5 laid the groundwork that the Masterful Expanse sits upon.

@snipelite94

2 жыл бұрын

@@L1VE3V1L It's good I enjoy The Expanse But it's not half as epic as B5

@daimonien

2 жыл бұрын

Tv scifi was dead almost a decade. Glad theres been a little bit of life during the recent years.

@dmacbass

Жыл бұрын

@@L1VE3V1L The Expanse is absolutely amazing!

B5 was just great Science Fiction writing. The whole story arc was great, and all the foreshadowing (no pun intended) in the first 2 seasons were all resolved at some point in the last 3 seasons (mainly season 3 & 4). The arcs of each character was what drew me in. You see Londo go from a frumpy diplomat to a power crazed politician to a disillusioned Emperor/leader. G'Kar from a scheming anti-hero to a person of philosophy and wisdom. And so on for each character in their evolution. The 2 greatest sad points were for Lennier when he didn't help Sheridan and then ran away, and then for Ivanova when she realized that Marcus sacrificed himself for her out of love (her regrets were never rectified). B5 was a study of the human race and all its different societies.

@geoffreyprior8931

2 жыл бұрын

Well Londo was literally given the job because no one else wanted it. The B5 diplomat job was seen as a dead end assignment. Yet Londo made the gig into one of the most important jobs in the republic. Londo really didn't want power for personal goals; he wanted to return the Centauri people back to the golden age of the republic. Yet in the end; his pursuit ended up with him watching his world burn.

@calkelpdiver

2 жыл бұрын

@@geoffreyprior8931, comes back to be careful what you wish for. Morden: "What do you want?"

@geoffreyprior8931

2 жыл бұрын

@@calkelpdiver well Vir got what he wanted without a downside

@calkelpdiver

2 жыл бұрын

@@geoffreyprior8931, Yes and No. He got what he wanted in Morden's head on a spike. He didn't get what he wanted which was for Londo to be happy. Also, Vir didn't want to be Emperor but did so out of duty to Londo and Centauri Prime to bring about its reconstruction. Vir was definitely "Who are You?"

@darth_yoda

2 жыл бұрын

#calkelpdiver I totally agree.. Though I would add Sharidans death as another sad point with his goodbye to Dyleen before he broads the Whitestar.

Babylon 5 was a great show--must see tv. What JMS was able to accomplish mostly single-handedly was incredible. I want to see what he can do with the knowledge and expertise he has gained; and with a bigger budget and more time

@SogoTX

Жыл бұрын

Babylon 5 is my all time favorite TV Space Opera, EVERYTHING about it was pure genius... Writing, Casting/Acting, Sets, Costumes, Makeup, Effects, Sound/Music Design, Direction/Cinematography... That being said, I, with all my heart... wish that the Babylon 5, "reboot' does NOT ever happen... it being current year Hollywierd, they would force JMS to, "adjust" the story for a, "Modern Audience" to convey the Corporate, "MESSAGE" of, "Wokism..." JMS HIMSELF said, "You cannot step into the same river twice..." Then WHY is he trying too?!?!? Don't, "reboot" Babylon 5... EXPAND on it.. (thus compelling a new Audience to go back to the ORIGINAL Series). There are MANY unfinished plot lines JMS could explore... the Telepath War, finish the arc started by Crusade and resolve the Drakh Plague on Earth, Lyta and G'Kar's adventures trying to establish a Telepath Homeworld, the Great Burn of Earth and its' reconstruction by the Rangers/Interstellar Alliance. JMS could also draw on the stories from the books and comics that are CANNON according to HIM... "The Passing of the Techno-Mages", "The Fate of Bester", the previous Minbari/Shadow War and the Rise of Valen.. (Yes, the characters would have to be recast, because of so many of the Actors Passing Beyond the Rim... but JMS was going to do that ANYWAY!) You cannot capture lightning in a bottle twice... but you can try to capture it in a DIFFERENT way... I wish these other options would be explored instead... because.. "Faith manages..." "We Live for the ONE... We Die for the ONE... " ;)

im glad we got both shows, i never actually finised watching season 1 on DS9, i just didnt find it very interesting. (One day i'll finish watching it) But Bablyon 5... was so good. Im glad it still holds up today. Such strong characters & personalities. I would love to see a new generation of "Babylon 5", maybe even with some cameo's while they're still around. Londo & Gkar was so freaking Epic in all their scenes :D

@yonatan_max_art

2 жыл бұрын

Wish granted...

@lukedudley5030

2 жыл бұрын

Best duo in ages :-) the way their relationship developed from hatred, to begrudgingly respecting each other, to besties :-) awesome character development is what made b5 so good :-)

@OverworkedITGuy

2 жыл бұрын

DS9 is the best Trek series hands down. It did more to expand the Trek universe than any other series with the exception of TOS. It made the non-Federation races actually 3 dimensional, gave them full on cultures. And the character growth was absolutely amazing. Booth DS9 and Bab5 are in my top 3 sci-fi series of all time list right next to Farscape. And I rate all 3 equally for different reasons.

@lukedudley5030

2 жыл бұрын

@@OverworkedITGuy as far as star trek gose you are right ds9 was the best of those series and did have some great characters, it was a copy of b5 and not as good...but the fights were the best in trek to that day and it had enough charm to stand on its own feet....however if I had to watch only 1 it would be b5 for me :-)

@brainsmasher6617

2 жыл бұрын

DS9 just gets better every season.

I was never a B5 fan, though my older brother and sister loved it. We are all three Trekkies, but I just couldn't get into their beloved Babylon 5. Today is the first time hearing this background story about the two shows, and I'm left stunned and extremely disappointed at how Paramount behaved. Glad JMS and Warner took the more difficult high road to get their series on air. Maybe I need took go back and give B5 another look.

@erikrupp692

2 жыл бұрын

You should. The first season is the weakest, but while it appears to be mostly episodic, there are story arc bits thrown in here and there that you won't even be aware of until the 3rd or 4th season. And the 2nd season starts strong, and ends stronger. The 3rd and 4th seasons are the best of the series, though. Brilliant stuff.

@angelrivera2339

2 жыл бұрын

It is funny that I thought that Babylon 5 or at least the pilot was a ripoff of ST the original series episode "Journey to Babel". I have always felt that the B5-DS9 issue was stupid. you can always find another version of your favorite story somewhere.

Thing is, whilst DS9 undoubtedly started from B5's original premise, they then got Ira Behr as showrunner, and Rick Berman got distracted by his new toy Voyager. Which meant that Behr was free & able to take DS9 in a completely different direction in the end, and it became its own wonderful thing. I'm glad Joe didn't sue, because I love both shows equally... but for different reasons.

@fig7047

3 жыл бұрын

Thankfully, we all benefited from this: we got both Babylon 5 AND DS9!

@Nikioko

3 жыл бұрын

DS9 is maybe the best Star Trek show, but it is still a cheap copy of B5. You see that from all the inconsistencies. It is based on a memory reconstruction of JMS's ideas, and in the beginning, it was not clear how the show would develop. The Dominion declares war in season 2, but the Jem'Hadar become a threat not earlier than season 5. And the Pah-Wraiths show up eventually, without having been mentioned before. The end of Dukat and Winn is very silly, too. And the Defiant is the White Star, of course. On the other hand, B5 is consistent from the beginning to the end. Small remarks or seemingly unimportant events become crucial several seasons later. Remember what Vir's wish from Mr. Morden was? Or what Elric told Londo? This show was thoroughly planned from scratch, not just from season to season like DS9. And if it wouldn't have suffered from the threat of cancellation and actor replacement (Sheridan for Sinclair was good, but Lyta for Talia broke the Ironheart plot and Lochley for Ivanova the whole show), it would have been perfect.

@StockportJambo

3 жыл бұрын

@@fig7047 Exactly that. You can debate the relative merits of each all day long (personally I think B5 is the greater achievement but DS9 has aged better & is more enjoyable to watch overall), but the truth is I love both of them. I couldn't pick one over the other (it would be like picking a favourite kid), and also, I don't see why I should. Both shows are great in their own ways.

@fig7047

3 жыл бұрын

@@Nikioko I'm with you on the whole sub-arc with Dukat and Winn, it wasn't great. The Shadows and the Vorlons made a lot of sense. The Prophets and the Pah-wraiths, not so much. I liked Lochley though. Season 5 was written differently than the other 4 seasons, and I have reflected on that a lot. In the end, I don't think it was a bad thing that they changed a few things. I met Tracy Scoggins at a convention and I got her to write "Never call Bester!" on the autograph. That was awesome!

@Nikioko

3 жыл бұрын

@@fig7047 I would have preferred Ivanova becoming Captain of B5 instead of introducing a new character, but Claudia Christian was unavailable for season 5, unfortunately. And some of the events in season 5 were intended to be in season 4 already, but since season 5 was uncertain, JMS dropped these things out and let the main plot end early. So, season 5 has a lot of fillers that were intended for season 4.

Sci-Fi Fans got 2 Awesome Shows, i'm not complaining.

@Nikioko

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, but what if Paramount had been honest and funded the show? How much better would Babylon 5 have been with a bigger budget and no threat of cancellation?

@koalabrownie

2 жыл бұрын

Which was the second one?

@ninjabearpress2574

2 жыл бұрын

Final scores, Babylon 5 Deep Space 9

@angelrivera2339

2 жыл бұрын

@@Nikioko I think that if Paramount had funded the show it would have sucked. The smaller budget and lack of suits involved with the running of the show meant that the creators had little interference from the studio to mess things up.

@Nikioko

2 жыл бұрын

@@angelrivera2339 The permanent threat of cancellated destroyed much of the story arc of seasons 4 and 5. JMS had to rush through the plot to get it finished at the end of season 4, and when they finally got the fifth season funded, it was filled with the stuff which was formerly crossed out. The result is, that season 5 drags a lot, as the climax has been already. A further problem is the actor replacement. Sheridan for Sinclair was good, Lyta for Talia was quite meh, because it killed the Ironheart subplot, and Lochley for Ivanova was terrible. With more certainty, at least the latter two replacements could have been avoided.

B5 is amazing, and the storytelling still holds up easy to this very day! Ds9 is also amazing - even if clearly derivative - and I'm glad I can watch both

The only bad thing about B5 is that so many cast members have died! It's only a 1990s show but Bruce Boxleitner, Bill Mumy, Walter Koenig and Peter Jurasik are the only main cast members who are still alive. There was a B5 convention panel a few years ago where they showed a tribute video to the people who had died and three people who were on that panel have since passed away.

@PHDWhom

2 жыл бұрын

You forgot Claudia Christian, who was a major cast member.

@hubbsllc

2 жыл бұрын

@@scotttild Per IMDB and Wikipedia, Peter Jurasik is still alive.

@PHDWhom

2 жыл бұрын

@@scotttild Peter Jurasik is still alive. Andreas Katsulas died.

@druunderwood5602

2 жыл бұрын

Long live Jason Carter.

@richyarger8469

Жыл бұрын

Don't forget Lyta. Looks like she barely aged.

I loved both shows.

I've always wanted to visit the parallel universe where B5 was made exactly the way JMS originally envisioned it.

Paramount has been famous for decades for stealing from writers. I pitched an idea to Anson Productions as Paramount in 1980 (Anson Williams' uncle Bill was in charge). A computer technician who uses home made robots as housekeepers. They liked the idea but said they doubted they could find any actors to play the robots because no one could see their faces. I thought that was absurd. They turned it down. One year later, "Nuts and Bolts" starring Rich Little had a 30 minute pilot episode, but the series wasn't picked up. The exact same idea I pitched to them. Welcome to Hollywood.

@ninjabearpress2574

2 жыл бұрын

I submitted a Next-Gen novel to Pocket Books. It took a year for them to reject my manuscript, but I'm convinced a scene from my book found its way into then Next-Gen episode "Gambit, Part I". They also named a character after me in The 4400. I suppose I should be honored, after they stole from the likes of Harlan Ellison and J. Michael Straczynski.

@nuclearsimian3281

2 жыл бұрын

Awww. I wish I was famous and set enough to bitch about tropes being used as plagiarism, but I'm just an aspiring writer of scifi who is inspired by Star Trek, Star Wars, EVE Online, Stargate, Farscape, and dozens of other movies and shows, so if something comes out that has a similar idea to mine, and it does better, I'll be sure to take the lesson from you and Straczynski and claim that it was plagiarized just because I didn't get famous and picked up by the studio.

@ninjabearpress2574

2 жыл бұрын

@@nuclearsimian3281 If you're any good, it'll happen to you.

I sincerely hope his reboot, or whatever you want to call it, of B5 for the CW is a success given I'm a massive fan of the original series. I will say that I can't help but be very

@Cpeerson2000

2 жыл бұрын

I am hoping he does it with all new characters that way it frees up the actors from having to live up to the previous performances.

@irishpicker7295

2 жыл бұрын

A fan myself but look at what they have done to star trek and star wars. They would fuck it up

@lukedudley5030

2 жыл бұрын

@@Cpeerson2000 I agree I hope they do the dilgar leading into the menbari war....we know some of it but never been shown and could be awesome to flesh out the lore of b5 and still be new and interesting to the fans :-)

@ninjabearpress2574

2 жыл бұрын

I have my doubts, and my grudges. I'd like to see Crusade completed, not a reboot of B5.

@lukedudley5030

2 жыл бұрын

@@ninjabearpress2574 tbf crusade had potential and then they made the first episode and lost it all....tried to be too much like star trek for me exploring space to find a cure that might not exist.....a remake of this could be good now you've made me think about it :-)

DS9 was my childhood. But so was this show 😢.

I never saw any similarities between the two shows. Mainly because B5's first few seasons were written far better than anything Berman could do on his best day, but in the end I liked both shows. They both developed their own universes and aside from the superficial 'both on a space station' aspect I didn't even make the connection.

@nuclearsimian3281

2 жыл бұрын

Probably because they're wildly different series that use *TROPES* to their advantage, and two authors, screenwriters, or storytellers using the same tropes is not bad, because tropes are tools. They aren't something that exists so you can accuse anyone else using that tool of plagiarism.

@oldfrend

2 жыл бұрын

i watched B5 first, then many years later watched ds9 cuz trek fans kept saying how good it was. they were flat wrong. after setting the bar with B5, ds9 doesn't come close. it's just a mediocre imitation at best and its ...average-ness... was only highlighted by the brilliance of B5's writing.

In Paramount's defense(I use that term carefully, because I tend to believe they are guilty) it's possible that a show based on a space station was the natural next step from ST:TOG and ST:TNG. The idea of the most famous, top of the line space ship traveling the galaxy, visiting exciting places, had been done. The organic next version would flip the idea; instead of a group of characters traveling around, they would be at a space station, and interesting people would come to them. Before DS9 or B5 ever came out, I was pondering what the next Star Trek show should be. Instead of the Enterprise zooming around the galaxy dramatically saving the day every episode, I thought the show should be centered on some run down space station in some unimportant remote corner of the Federation, in a spot where the Klingon and Romulan borders also intersected. Possibly a space station built at the intersection of all three specifically to help build peaceful relations; a wishful consequence that didn't quite work out. The Federation commander would be a character who should have been an admiral, but because of some scandal or intrigue in his past, his career was dead and he'd been stuck at captain and assigned to the worst spot possible. All the characters would similarly be people with questionable pasts and ongoing issues. Instead of big stories, the plots would center around keeping the peace and maintaining order in this crappy, desolate corner of the galaxy. The Klingons and Romulans would often be at each other's throats, but their commanders were also under orders to keep trouble down and maintain order in their respective areas. So I'm not a writer, but I came up with the same basic idea as DS9 and B5. I can't remember now which show it was, but when I first watched it my initial reaction was, "they stole my idea!"😀

@OverworkedITGuy

2 жыл бұрын

Except for the part where JMS had given them the B5 story bible as part of his original pitch to have them pick up the show first. They sat on it for years claiming they didn't think it would work. Then once JMS got B5 picked up, suddenly Paramount decided DS9 was a good idea. DS9 definitely started as a complete and total rip-off of the original pitch/concept of B5. It was just fortunate that Berman got sidetracked doing Voyager and the other showrunner was able to make DS9 it's own creature from that point forward.

Warner Bros. *still* doesn't know what a juggernaut they have in their back pocket. It makes me sad; if they'd been behind B5 like they are behind the looney toons and such, Paramount would've had to ditch the plagiarism they are so guilty of in order to make "one more Trek" series through the decades, and *both* franchises would've been the better for it. Legend of the Rangers notwithstanding . . .

@Theomite

2 жыл бұрын

I've talked to people who worked in production design on both shows and they told me that Straczynski's temper and stand-your-ground artist principles REALLY pissed off the WB brass to the extent that even after several executive turnovers, he's sorta blackballed at the studio. That's why they never really got behind B5 again until after the _Game of Thrones_ vacuum made it a financial exception.

@oenrn

Жыл бұрын

On the other hand, if WB did take an interest in the show, B5 might've ended up like Crusade: a great premise ruined by constant studio meddling which eventually led to the creator getting fed up and pulling the plug. So them not caring about it ("benign neglect" as JMS calls it) is probably what made the show so great.

@kurtjk01

Жыл бұрын

@@oenrn That's a very good point, and well-taken.

So it sounds like what the DS9 group did was something akin to the whole thing of solicting job resumes for a fake job posting to get job resumes to create your own resume based on - yuck. On an unrelated note the more I hear the more I think Majel Barrett sounds really cool in real life.

Ironically when I was in the Navy stationed in Norfolk Va. Babylon 5 and Star Trek DS9 were both on the local UPN station.

@erikrupp692

6 ай бұрын

In Los Angeles they were on the same station as well (Channel 13, KCOP). If I remember right, for a year or two they aired one after the other. And Babylon 5 got higher ratings than DS9 on occasion. (OK, it was typically when DS9 was a repeat, but, still, given the budgetary and promotion differences that was a huge accomplishment.)

Babylon 5 is my all time favorite TV Space Opera, EVERYTHING about it was pure genius... Writing, Casting/Acting, Sets, Costumes, Makeup, Effects, Sound/Music Design, Direction/Cinematography... That being said, I, with all my heart... wish that the Babylon 5, "reboot' does NOT ever happen... it being current year Hollywierd, they would force JMS to, "adjust" the story for a, "Modern Audience" to convey the Corporate, "MESSAGE" of, "Wokism..." JMS HIMSELF said, "You cannot step into the same river twice..." Then WHY is he trying too?!?!? Don't, "reboot" Babylon 5... EXPAND on it.. (thus compelling a new Audience to go back to the ORIGINAL Series). There are MANY unfinished plot lines JMS could explore... the Telepath War, finish the arc started by Crusade and resolve the Drakh Plague on Earth, Lyta and G'Kar's adventures trying to establish a Telepath Homeworld, the Great Burn of Earth and its' reconstruction by the Rangers/Interstellar Alliance. JMS could also draw on the stories from the books and comics that are CANNON according to HIM... "The Passing of the Techno-Mages", "The Fate of Bester", the previous Minbari/Shadow War and the Rise of Valen.. (Yes, the characters would have to be recast, because of so many of the Actors Passing Beyond the Rim... but JMS was going to do that ANYWAY!) You cannot capture lightning in a bottle twice... but you can try to capture it in a DIFFERENT way... I wish these other options would be explored instead... because.. "Faith manages..." "We Live for the ONE... We Die for the ONE... " ;)

I watched and enjoyed both shows and never at any time did I think they were similar, or copied each other in any way!

Rewatching B5 in 1080p and having a great time. DS9 has its moments but for me personally it pales in comparison.

@Darkfrost7456

2 жыл бұрын

Ds9 imo is fantastic and I’m just starting Babylon 5 I’m 12 episodes in. So far they have one thing in common they both have pretty bad first seasons as is common for shows like that, hoping Babylon 5 improves.

@BigWetTits1

2 жыл бұрын

@@Darkfrost7456 it will.

@brandonreed09

2 жыл бұрын

@@Darkfrost7456 the best of B5 are seasons 2-4. Season 1 is rough and just sets up a lot of what happens later on.

@alfredkugler3043

2 жыл бұрын

@@brandonreed09 Season 1 builds the solid foundation of all that will be revealed later, but by itself is too episodic to actually really take off on its own.

@warrenpoultney8215

2 жыл бұрын

@@Darkfrost7456 you won't be disappointed. I didn't really warm to season 1 of B5. But man, was in big time afterwards

So basically B5 and Deep Space came to be because of J Michael Straczynski

2:08 I'm 100% sure that that cast member who did this, is probably Armin Shimerman. Cuz he's definitely that kind of person.

We LOVE YOU JOE! :) xxx

JMS is a genius. B5 was the best sci-fi show ever….

Patricia Tallman has said in interview that there actually was a lawsuit, but I'm more inclined to believe JMS' version.

Now we all know why DS9 was such a good show. The exes stole from the best. At least it's nice to know that the cast of DS9 were all stand up people.

@toomanyaccounts

2 жыл бұрын

guess what he says they didn't steal.

@Dlatest

2 жыл бұрын

This is interesting because there is an old video of Patricia Tallman his gf at the time. Asked this question and she said there was eventually a lawsuit and Paramount settled. This video here kzread.info/dash/bejne/n6iVprqncpS_o6Q.html

@toomanyaccounts

2 жыл бұрын

@@Dlatest which is a falsehood. there was no lawsuit and no settlement. Straczynski says there was no lawsuit and no plagiarism

@Dlatest

2 жыл бұрын

@@toomanyaccounts His whole response is about them copying B5 and trying to tank the show, so yes he says plagiarism. He states that WB didn't want to sue. Now we get into the weeds here because Patricia Tallman was his gf at the time and I would assume she had insight into what happened more than others. Maybe he sued by himself at a later time after the show was done and Paramount settled. He doesn't mention anything about a settlement in this video just WB not wanting to file a lawsuit.

@toomanyaccounts

2 жыл бұрын

@@Dlatest except no such copying occurred. wb wouldn't be doing the lawsuit since wb doesn't have creator's credit. he would be the one who would have to do the lawsuit. guess what he had no grounds, no plagiarism occurred. he was just spouting crap. anyone who has read the actual story bible as well as what the DS9 show background material shows there was nothing in common except basic things that have been in sci fi for decades. give you a clue the The Gathering was the one that ripped off DS9. There is lots of things that never show up such as the weapons which looked like phasors and acted like phasors. funny how B5 fans forget what changed from the pilot movie to the series.

The worst part of DS9 was their recycled space combat scenes that went as far back as clips from the TOS Movies. Over and over and over and over and over again. All of Babylon 5's space scenes were unique.

@rmsgrey

2 жыл бұрын

Actually, while the space combat was more varied, the establishing shots of the station reused a handful of shots for a significant chunk of the show.

@brainsmasher6617

2 жыл бұрын

The CGI of Babylon 5 was fantastic.

Farscape had the same thing happen with StarGate. Another great rating fantasy series was "lost" so they could win "the greatest numbers, greatest ratings". Babylon 5 did a great job of surviving, Farscape went down due to a naive team.

It seems obvious now, but when I was a kid I really liked both shows and didn't make the connection that DS9 was a rip-off.

@darthkek1953

2 жыл бұрын

Me too.

Episodic story telling is the best. Beats weekly stand alone episodes. Love Babylon 5. Looking forward to the reboot.

My all-time favorite sci-fi shows were B5, Farscape, and DS9.

@druunderwood5602

2 жыл бұрын

SeaQuest DSV for old times sake!

@druunderwood5602

2 жыл бұрын

And it had Telepaths?

@SogoTX

Жыл бұрын

@@druunderwood5602 All 3 franchise did, ironically... ;)

@druunderwood5602

Жыл бұрын

@@SogoTX He was close friend of Stan Lee, Writer of Thor.,

@druunderwood5602

Жыл бұрын

@@SogoTX Loki has questions to answer? Dark MCU MonsterVerse? kzread.info/dash/bejne/qHmaktFpYcrOk84.html

JMS and " cheap " in the same sentence is an oxymoron of the millennium.

And people still say Babylon 5 and DS9 had nothing to do with each other.

Funny, because I always thought that B5 was a rip off of the ST original series episode "Journey to Babel". The B5 pilot was the same plot. It had the diplomats. a diplomat assassinated, the Federation representative accused of doing it, the assassin was an alien pretending to be another alien who commits suicide after he fails the mission...

@MichaelMiller-bs3tz

2 жыл бұрын

Because diplomatic assassinations never happened before up until Star Trek came up with the idea. 🙄

@angelrivera2339

2 жыл бұрын

@@MichaelMiller-bs3tz No matter the genre, the story has been told in a million times before. there are sci-fi purists that argue about Dune is a ripoff of the Foundation, they just have sticks up their butts. Asimov got the idea from the book The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. The stories of falling empires are as old as human civilization. We can be sure that Hari Sheldon was not the first person that tried to save an empire. I was surprised when the B5 pilot was essentially a Star Trek episode. However my rule of thumb is that if a story is similar to another, then concentrate in what makes it different. I concentrated in what was unique about B5. I ended up very pleased. I never missed an episode.

Litigation in general can take many yrs.

Avoided litigation, focused on the race, and ended up with 2 of the best shows of the century!

One of the biggest twists of Babylon 5 was the revelation that Walter Koenig, when given a character with some depth and a good script, was a decent actor.

@SogoTX

Жыл бұрын

Too bad he is not a decent person to the Fans at Conventions... ;)

This account -- recorded in 2013 -- does not mesh with Patricia Tallman (Lyta Alexander actress, and briefly Straczynski's romantic partner), who describes a "lawsuit settled out of court," in Stracyznki's favor, in her own 2017 interview.

And in the end we got 2 great shows. DS9 is still to this day the best Star Trek that was ever on TV, and as much as I hate despise and loath remakes, I will be front row for the B5 Remake. I've re-watched both of those shows multiple times.

I think the 15% he talks about that they didn't manage to do was the additional series it needed to cover the telepath wars and pad out the shadow war properly.

@DanSchallerforPOTUS

2 жыл бұрын

Possibly, but it could also have something to do with actually, finally getting to the Vorlon home world to discover the tech that lead to the discovery of the 4x hyperspace travel that was mentioned in the movies which took place during season 5 of B5. - Maybe more on "The Hand" beings mentioned in Legend of the Rangers. They really needed to finish Crusade. - Maybe they could've figured out how to power the "main gun" without being dead in the water for a minute.

@bobthebomb1596

2 жыл бұрын

That 15% might refer to ideas he had for Sinclair that had to be dropped due to O'Hare's health issues?

Just forgive one another,for in the end we will all got to go and will face the "True Q Continuum".

@SogoTX

Жыл бұрын

After one visits the "Q Continuum" then you, "Pass beyond the Rim...' ;)

Not surprising about Paramounts (Berman / Braga's) behaviour. DS9 was 'watchable' but came no where close to Babylon 5 in terms of story telling or character development.

I'm glad he bit the bullet. I respect JMS very much & since I'm a huge fan of both shows. They are very vastly different even if ideas are borrowed the reality is DS9 is very very different.

It is the job of a show's producer to look at everything else in the market and steal anything that they can use. It's the way the industry works.

B5 had outstanding character development and multiple story arcs (Shadow War, Londo and G'Kar, Sheridan and Delenn, Delenn and the Gray Council, Mr. Garibaldi's arc, and so on) along with a sense of mystery that gradually unfolded into something really unique. DS9 did it in a much more clunky manner When JMS redoes B5, as it seems he now is, I really hope he tells an entirely new story with new characters and his signature excellent showrunning. And please don't get woke.

I never thought ds9 was that great. There were good points in it but overall the storyline, the acting, the sub plots and the overall character development and personal transformations in b5 for me wins hands down.

@petermcilroy1176

2 жыл бұрын

I got halfway through DS9 and got fed up with the poor characterisations especially Sisko whom I thought was particularly dull. They even managed to make Worf and O’Brien dull.

@oldfrend

2 жыл бұрын

@@petermcilroy1176 the whole show is a celebration of dullness. i'm flabbergasted trek fans think it's any good. i watched the whole thing cuz they kept saying how good it was, but it's not. TNG is easily the better written show. B5 blows them all away.

my my startrek seems to have ahabit of stealing other ppls works.....look at discovery and the warp creature and a 2officers....so ripped off..if you dont know about it check it out...

I chose B5 over any of the ST spin offs (other than TNG of course). Still haven't watched voyager or ds9... I did watch Enterprise though. (Scott Bakula fan).

@Dlatest

2 жыл бұрын

This is pretty close to my story arc. I didn't want to watch two show with the same base story so stuck with B5 and didn't really watch Star Trek after that. I have watched some of the newer shows because wanted to see what they are about. Every time I have caught Voyager in reruns years later and I have actually enjoyed it.

I said DS9 was a cheap B5 ripoff the first time I saw it, 20+ years ago.

@angelrivera2339

2 жыл бұрын

I don't know but I remember thinking how the B5 pilot was a Star Trek ripoff from the original series Journey to Babel. same plot, ambassador assassinated on the way to a place called Babel, Federation rep accused of being the killer, and an assassin that pretending to be another race...

Don't Blame The Actors

My thing is that BOTH shows benefitted from each other, in spite of their similarities. And, I liked them both. In fact, I once wrote a fanfiction piece where both stations existed in the same "universe"; one version had the B5 Earth as a duplicate Earth (ie. parallel planetary development, as seen in TOS), while another version of my story had the story of B5 taking place before the story of DS9 (i.e. the Earth-Minbari War, which, again, was started over a misunderstanding, takes place in the 22nd century, rather than the 23rd century, pre-Federation).

I tried to wade through DS9, but I found it either dull or infuriating with a few good episodes. Whilst the spiritual aspects of B5 were woven into the narrative of the show, DS9's spiritual side seemed to be an afterthought to the point that the grand finale in the fire caves seemed rushed and tacked on. I can kust imagine the conversation at the victory party followingthe surrender of the Dominion. "Oh, we've defeated the Dominion, but we're forgotten something... hmm, what could it be. Oh yes, something about the ultimate battle between good and evil? Oh you mean that storyline that hasn't involved any of the core characters? Yes, that one, the storyline that had little bearing on the story at all... oh yes...probably not important. " Beyond superficial similarities B5 and DS9 were completely different shows, and if DS9 was truly inspired by the B5 bible it was a very poor copy.

Stragate goaulds?

Everybody who has seen both shows knows which one is the original idea and which one is the copy.

The thing that sucks about this is that I enjoy both B5 and DS9. Sucks how that all went down.

well the way i thought about the shows. I thought that Babylon 5 was the soap opera of the shows while deep space 9 was more the just the entertainment version. B5 was much smarter, linked together, thought out. The characters were great. Deep space 9 was ok, wasn't the best of the star trek series in fact to me, was at the bottom in terms of characters and watchability. Avery over acted, many were just ok, they had to bring over other star trek characters to boost it some, so was just ok. Watched more because it was star trek, entertaining sure, but not as good as B5.

After TOS, DS9 is my fav Trek ever. I love it. I also like B5. I never thought they were copies of each other. Even when they were both on. It's interesting the take from both sides on this issue. And how it's changed over the years. Some of the claims have become inflated. I dunno whether or not either series copied each other. But they were both very good.

DS9 was always going to struggle fitting into trek because it was a static point in space rather than a ship travelling about the place. The dominion war gave it the kiss of life that for the most part worked although the finale has to be the worst one they've done. The 20 minutes of music montage as they all say their farewells was just bland, enterprise might have stretched things with the riker holodeck sim but at least it was still a story for the whole episode.

@HansJoachimMaier

2 жыл бұрын

Interesting. I just loved the final episode of DS9. I still consider it as the best final episode in star trek.

@koalabrownie

2 жыл бұрын

@@HansJoachimMaier Nothing beats All Good Things . . . I'm afraid. DS9's finale even re-used battle footage from previous episodes. Very odd.

To all those nay sayers that DS9 is NOT a ripoff of B5 I have this to say: I TOLD YOU SO! Suck it.

DS9 was pretty bad. Loved most of B-5.

Bet those particular Paramount Execs got their bonuses

Loved both but B5 was better.

One of the sci-fi cons I went to Majel Barrett talked about this all being bullshit and there was no way she would have agreed to be on B5 if this was true. Looking at the date it was about when the remake was announced.... just sad to see this kind of garbage pushed to help WB and him get his reboot talked about.

@erikrupp692

2 жыл бұрын

- The date of this interview was several YEARS ago. It's not recent. It was posted here several MONTHS ago, long before the reboot became public knowledge. And Majel would have no way of knowing what happened at Paramount at the time that B5 was pitched to them because by that point Gene Roddenberry was having health issues and wasn't as involved with producing Star Trek on a day to day basis. Beyond that, he didn't know about a whole lot going on at Paramount. Also, DS9 started after he died, so Majel was out of the loop by then.

@drlizzardo4373

2 жыл бұрын

@@erikrupp692Thanks for letting me know the time period this was recorded. I liked both show I have multiple box sets for B5 and DS9, on DVD and a huge box of VHS tapes. As I said just sad to see this get dragged up to push a project [re-boot]. As to what she knew Ill have to say Id believe what she said at the time. If anyone had insider knowledge about DS9 back then just out of respect I think she would be in the loop not saying the inner circle. I remember her talking about appearing on both shows at the con here in Australia, so it must of being the late 90's as her appearance was in the B5 episode "Point of No Return" that aired in the US in 95

B5 "borrowed" from DS9 once or twice too, but I don't blame them. DS9 had the defiant, and then JMS wrote in the white Star.

Babylon 5 was so much better, I'm not sure it even matters .. Ds9 is unwatchable anyway, so apparently they didn't even know how to steal..

I have Babylon 5 on DVD. I've never bothered to own any StarTrek properties in any form. And I'm a big Star Trek fan, but it was mostly fast-food, episodic science fiction and without much of a plan and Babylon 5 was a full-course, gourmet meal that had an arc. Worse, in Star Trek it didn't seem to matter how many star ships you blew up by making mistakes as the commander of the ship, you kept your job AND got a new one.

Paramount steals everyone's ideas for Star Trek. Just look at the new Star Trek and the ripoff from the video game. Note: I did enjoy both series and loved B5 more.

i always said ds9 was a rip off of Babylon 5. a weak rip off.

@toomanyaccounts

2 жыл бұрын

and you are dumb for spouting it. DS9 was being worked on before he came to Paramount

@madselmvig1457

2 жыл бұрын

@@toomanyaccounts Watch the interview, Straczynski pitched his script to Paramount long before DS9. And it is common knowledge that DS9 where a cheap "Star Trek" copy of BS5

@toomanyaccounts

2 жыл бұрын

@@madselmvig1457 once again the interview is admitted to being bs by Stracynski. DS9 was already being developed. your common knowledge is admitted garbage by Stracynski.

@toomanyaccounts

2 жыл бұрын

hell Stracynski was the one worried about being called a ripoff. "“I know full well that even if the Warners PR machine got working 24 hours a day on this, half of all viewers will see this show, coming out after DS9, and think it’s just a last-minute knockoff or ripoff of DS9” "“have never, ever felt, or believed, or thought, that Berman or Pillar (sic) EVER saw or knew about the B5 information. Had anyone suggested anything of a less than straightforward nature, they would have refused; of that I have no doubt.”" ".no, I don't think B&P at DS9 are sitting there cribbing B5 plotlines from the original material provided to Paramount. I think they would refuse. They are ethical individuals. Are they playing a little at co-opting us, which is kind of more accepted in town? I don't know. I think you could make a compelling argument on either side. But I don't know the truth any more than you do, and if they say not, then I'm prepared to believe them." end of discussion he says there was no plagirism, no ripping off, no lawsuit, no settlement. stop repeating debunked crap

@alexandermathieson4774

2 жыл бұрын

@@toomanyaccounts yeah, its not like big studios would rip off an idea. what am i thinking .

Oh, chill, J. Michael. It is like any good bluesman, they only steal for the best.

B5 is a good show. Well written and acted. I liked it. The effects do look pretty cheesy but it doesn't take away from the quality of the acting and writing. Funny, DS9 was also left alone and allowed to do pretty much what they wanted. DS9 ended up as the best Trek show ever.

As a fan of both shows I'm ashamed to say I never put two and two together until now. While it's now glaringly obvious to my dumb ass now what Paramount did I have to say that it didn't work out like they wanted. I just pray that the reboot doesn't get destroyed by the woke crap coming from the corporate overlords. If it doesn't than I'll actually have to go buy a TV for the first time in 6 years.

@BCWasbrough

2 жыл бұрын

You may want to manage your expectations. Much of that "Woke crap" was as essential part of B5's plot. The show was anti-fascist from the beginning. (President Clark? The Nightwatch?) JMS also made a point to emphasize how the diversity of Human cultures gave us strength. The best part is that it wasn't performative, like many shows these days do it. B5 had a progressive, open-minded outlook as part of the show's DNA.

Star trek has been run by nasty crooks for a long time. Extremely overrated as well.

To me, Babylon 5 had the better story.

I really liked the B5 Shadows story line. But some of the dialogue was terrible. And some terrible actors ... O'hearn being the worst.

Despite all the factual things that were the same, the shows (and I like both a lot) are nothing alike--can anyone really say watching one reminds you of the other?. B5 has better character depth, but I would not be without either.

He stole ideas from others.

DS 9 is shite compared to Bab 5

DS9 was trash.

I religiously watched and liked both shows; but DS9 was a tad better.

I never really watched B5 but I never liked DS9. It always seemed like a low-brow, déclassé _Married With Children_ take on sci-fi. I guess I sensed the bad karma, huh?

B5 was a far superior show to DS9.

DS9 was much better imo it also aged better. I couldn't even tolerate the first episode of B5. It just seems so dated like an antique the characters seemed bland. I will give the reboot a chance maybe it will be better.

@erikrupp692

2 жыл бұрын

The first season of DS9 was pretty generic and bland. The second season was, too. Not bad, pretty good, but nowhere as good as it got by the 4th season. Babylon 5 hit it's stride in it's 2nd season.

Babylon 5 sucked.

@SogoTX

Жыл бұрын

Ok, what specifically about it, "sucked"? ;)

I'm more of a Star Trek fan, but Babylon 5 was better than DS9. And competing shows have always been a staple - the Addams Family and The Munsters - I Dream of Jeannie and Bewitched - 1000 westerns and cop and medical shows. They always provide a different perspective and usually end up complementing each other.