Full podcast episode: kzread.info/dash/bejne/Y4yTrcakn6reg9Y.html Lex Fridman podcast channel: kzread.info Guest bio: Norman Finkelstein and Benny Morris are historians. Mouin Rabbani is a Middle East analyst. Steven Bonnell (aka Destiny) is a political livestreamer.

@Chillypuwn

2 ай бұрын

Next time invite Miko Peled in.

@AdamDorfman82

2 ай бұрын

Norman Finkelstei and Mouin Rabbani are so disingenuous HAMAS broke a ceasefire and surprised people at a music festival: killed 250 unarmed civilians at the NOVA music festival and less than 20 additional people who were security or army at the site. That makes a civilian to soldier ratio of 10:1 IN GAZA - there is a war, so civilians were warned out of 30,000 death, 15,000 are HAMAS militant (Although Hamas refuses to say its casualty numbers to manipulate the number) so that's 15,000 civilians to 15,000 militants That makes a civilian to soldier ratio of 1:1 HAMAS kills 10 civilians for 1 soldier vs. IDF Kills 1 civilian for 1 militant and Hamas commits daily war crimes (Militants don't wear a uniform and hide under or amongst civilians) ITS OBVIOUS HAMAS has a greater genocidal intent whereas IDF has a military goal the only difference is the scale of the operation.

@nwonomad

2 ай бұрын

Lex is gay

@Chillypuwn

2 ай бұрын

@@AdamDorfman82 You are so brainwashed I don't even know where to begin.

@AdamDorfman82

2 ай бұрын

LMAO! I'm brainwashed with facts? God, It's funny you accuse me of the very thing you are@@Chillypuwn

Norm: "Mr Vermicelli, please stop noodling around"

@josephcunningham2877

2 ай бұрын

Very funny😂

This is probably a cynical outlook but I think destiny is just there to piss off Norm so that the whole discussion can go viral.

@billusher2265

2 ай бұрын

Given that Finkelstein already said he didn’t want to debate him, Lex allowed endless interruptions, and the clip channel keeps putting Norman and destiny in the thumbnail, you are probably right.

@notanemoprog

2 ай бұрын

Yes.

@anthonymanzo7867

2 ай бұрын

cope

@jacobszekely4069

2 ай бұрын

No, his anger is just a natural result of not having any good responses to Destiny‘s points. Destiny actually brought evidence and source material whereas Finkelstein only brought a few selected quotes from the historian across the table who instantly debunked him destiny is not a historian, obviously, but really experienced debater, and, it’s obvious to him and any fair minded person watching this debate that the name-calling is the refuge of people who simply don’t have any arguments. Finkelstein has no idea how the Israeli military works or how strikes are conducted yet he’s happy to throw around blood, libel and calls of genocide , this is what really exposes Finkelstein as a fraud, and an activist much more than a Historian, which he clearly isn’t.

@anonymousbrowser4448

2 ай бұрын

@@jacobszekely4069exactly Norm resorted to childish name calling instead of responding to destiny and kept interrupting all the time. When he doesn't know how to answer he does ad hominems

"When you talk about H@mas, all of a sudden you discovered morality" Right in the face with this one 😄😄😄

@andymccallum8090

2 ай бұрын

that comparison is insane tho. comparing hamas to the idf is insane.

@caleb-glennmarcus6887

2 ай бұрын

​@@andymccallum8090exactly, comparing a bloodthirsty r@cist genocidal group to their victims who struck back against zion@zi terror is insane

@URUSMANONE

2 ай бұрын

​@@andymccallum8090 I agree. The IDF killed way, way more civilians.

@kingdingaling413

2 ай бұрын

@@andymccallum8090both killing civilians

@ImRoman_

2 ай бұрын

Apparently you stopped a video after this, since the response is even better

3 men and a lady having a discussion.

"I will answer the morons question"... Professor Norman Finkelstein

@amsz6326

2 ай бұрын

Wow great he called him a moron, just decency

@FNA27601

2 ай бұрын

​@@amsz6326completely warranted.

Lex printing money

@user-rq3xl1pp9h

2 ай бұрын

Look up on KZread: Balestine is a myth says ham-a$$ member, they are just Saudis and Egyptians!

Finkelstein calling Destiny a moron had me dyin 😂😂😂

@mikerosoft1009

2 ай бұрын

"Oh ya? Well 1v1 me then bro let's go!"

@BDKoala

2 ай бұрын

once you resort to personal attacks instead of actually addressing the claims you already lost. Norm did badly here. Morris and Rabbani were there in good faith.

@alejandromarquez3526

2 ай бұрын

@@BDKoalawhich arguments won out? Let’s focus on the important things

@mofishin2648

2 ай бұрын

@@BDKoala Agreed, I imagine these folks praising Norms bad behaviour would be singing a wildly different tune had it been Destiny acting like this.

@guinea_horn

2 ай бұрын

​@@BDKoalaI tend to agree in principle but destiny's presence here is so useless he just needed to be shut up

He says the IDF air force is extremely organized and disciplined what about the USS Liberty...

@e30ogPlayground

2 ай бұрын

THIS

@johnsonjunior547

2 ай бұрын

"oh yeah? What about this one example I have!?!?" The US has had multiple friendly fire incidents, doesn't make it unorganized.

@GreatBlack

2 ай бұрын

@@johnsonjunior547 literally a deliberate attack that killed us soldiers and you’re making jokes about it. Real classy

@JobVanDam

2 ай бұрын

​@@GreatBlackhe's saying that organizations made of people make mistakes because people make mistakes it doesn't mean the US is disorganized and lacking leadership, standards, practices etc

@chucky428

2 ай бұрын

First of all, those morons need to know what happened to the USS Liberty, and you are asking too much from those people....

Morris and Destiny: International law is irrelevant.

@talmudovsky

2 ай бұрын

United States courts do not consider United Nations General Assembly Resolutions to be authoritative sources of international law. So does Israel. UN GA produced hundreds resolutions routinely and unjustly accusing Israel in multiple sins short not converting to Islam. So why paying attention?

@zorbacosum1978

2 ай бұрын

How long has the conflict been going on and how has international law solve it in any way?

@darkregions

2 ай бұрын

@zorbacosum1978 it would solve if Israel listened... then the other side will be compelled to listen as it's to their favour to get their rights through proper means. Israel doesn't want to heed because they want to capitalise on their gains at the cost of thousands of lives... in fact it's probably the only country on earth that benefits from terror and puny attacks from Hamas... hence, it was a key aspect of Hamas coming to life.

@zorbacosum1978

2 ай бұрын

@@darkregions so it boils down to bilateral negotiations and international law is irrelevant because it doesn t actually compel any side to take the propper measures for this conflict to end?

@darkregions

2 ай бұрын

@zorbacosum1978 what bilateral negotiations will the down and trodden upon Palestinians have when they're on the weak end of negotiations?? ... bilateral negotiations where Palestinians have nothing to gain and Israel would offer nothing to lose. You can't steal someone's home and leave them the front garden, then tell them not to call the police and negotiate to keep that garden instead.

The debate over taking human lives highlights the unsettling truth about our morality as a species.

Lex should have done some moderation here, it wasn't pleasant to watch

@aaronpannell6401

2 ай бұрын

I don't know if he ever moderated.

@aaronpannell6401

2 ай бұрын

@lavendereucalyptus3225 I know I sound old AF, but when they talk over eachother and I can't understand what they are saying, the debate seems pointless.

@davidrader1856

2 ай бұрын

Lex is too soft to be an effective moderator.

@bigtittybo1449

2 ай бұрын

Are u kidding me it was amazing to watch. When they really get into it that’s what gets views!

@exiledhebrew1994

2 ай бұрын

@@bigtittybo1449 I agree. It’s better to let them duke it out unless it’s really going nowhere

I wish I was as calm and intelligent as Mouin rabbani.

@williamlampke8083

Ай бұрын

Agreed, I'd also say the same about Prof Morris

@mortezasafaei2017

Ай бұрын

​@@williamlampke8083 nobody asked...

@williamlampke8083

Ай бұрын

@@mortezasafaei2017 bro shut up yourself 🤣

@dimitri_rascolov123

24 күн бұрын

@@williamlampke8083 yeah especially when he said that 35k civilian deaths is a small number

@williamlampke8083

23 күн бұрын

@@dimitri_rascolov123 I literally didn’t say anything about what he said just his temperament in comparison to the other two 🤣 but ok

Please get Mr Boticelli of the internet. I can't stomach the guy anymore.

@VolsPride

2 ай бұрын

You post videos of guys in front of Confederate flags complaining about Jews in America. You may be slightly biased in your opinions.

@The911watch

2 ай бұрын

@@VolsPride You might want to watch it. It explains why every US politician cuck to Israel when the rest of the world opposes their genocide. (Hint: its because of AIPAC)

Terrible debate moderator

@amylolxox

2 ай бұрын

He is a jew

I hate it when people talk over each other constantly.

@xatnu

2 ай бұрын

It is a classic strategy for cowards

@aSSGoblin1488

2 ай бұрын

how about slow talking for the first part ?

@emaster01

2 ай бұрын

"people"??!?!~?!?!?!? There's literally one one person, Dr. Finekl Liar. Literally he's the only one. Destiny will re interrupt so he can finish his sentence, but Dr. Finkel Liar lierally hasn't let a single person on the show finish their sentence.

@zechenwei1139

2 ай бұрын

@@emaster01 That doesn't seem to be the case.

@marinasuarezdebauer6579

2 ай бұрын

@@emaster01 This comment demonstrates me that you van see what you want to see and believe what you to believe. You can call Dr. Finkelstein is a p@in in the #ss but a liar, that's strong wishful thinking.

So The IDF calls a lawyer before they fire... okay

@jugz9130

2 ай бұрын

It’s a chain of commands the order has to go through, it’s not what the media is feeding you bro

@egadvideo

2 ай бұрын

@@jugz9130 Right...,.

@alanunruh7310

2 ай бұрын

can you explain to me how a military could even get a fleet of airplanes or drones into the air and coordinate where to do the bombing if it was just a circus of morons running around?!?!?! do you even have the slightest idea how many man hours and support it takes just to service a single jet? let alone a fleet of them and radar and ground crews and air control. etc etc so you and the two morons on here believe that somehow a single person maintains, loads, fuels, gets all geographical and gps info, makes his own maps, runs his own ground and air radars while still piloting his plane. and then makes the executive decision after alllllllllll of that........... to shoot four innocent children for no reason other than because he can, because he is the only link in the chain of command?!? lol nah, just nah @@egadvideo

@Quran_Alone_Dawah

2 ай бұрын

​@jugz9130 Ah okay so they all approve the war crime in the chain of command? Lmao

@diagorasofmel0s

2 ай бұрын

@@jugz9130yea to make the soldiers not feel guilty, but there are many brave idf soldiers who will go to hell probably but they choose to tell the truth. check "breaking the silence" and "empire files with abby martin"

You can tell that Destiny was never punched in the face. A person who never experienced violence always advocates for violence

@ericborzone9506

2 ай бұрын

Lol, that comment leaves so many mixed messages

@DrMarmalader

2 ай бұрын

Both sides are advocating for violence so your comment is meaningless.

@josehawking5293

2 ай бұрын

Seems to me that unlike Norman who I greatly respect, the other two, although genuine, seem to be more quasi political.🤔 What is the deal with the other guy? Destiny, Don’t no much about him other than his ability to scramble the facts. 🤔

@Ahmed-ug5jx

2 ай бұрын

I think you hit the nail in the coffin.

@Orlando2914

2 ай бұрын

He's "pro Genocide", his words not mine.

Didn't Al jazeera recently aired a report where they interviewed israeli Apache pilot saying they where getting intel for whom they can shoot from whatsapp group. what a well organized army that is.

@dreewhispers9408

2 ай бұрын

I saw that too.

@user-by6fp4ov3k

2 ай бұрын

Your first mistake was believing Al Jazeera. Regardless, there's no way you actually think fighter pilots just zoom around the skies of Gaza going "Oh, there's a guy there, let's shoot a rocket at it" like it's Arma or something. They obviously have to communicate with the guys on the ground who have intel, laser designators, etc.

@afRolowkey

2 ай бұрын

@@user-by6fp4ov3krightttttttttt…….if that helps you sleep at night believe that fam

@therearenostringsforme

2 ай бұрын

Al jazeera is the biggest propoganda factory on earth.

@dreewhispers9408

2 ай бұрын

just don't speak when you don't have real information, the Squadron 190 was ordered to shoot at everything and everyone who moves near the fence area, and since there was a massive panic, some although a minority from the total of 850 of civilians (only civilians accounted for here) were present there and were killed by Israeli fire, and that's according to them not to AL Jazira of some other pro-Palestinian source @@user-by6fp4ov3k

Why tf is Destiny in this convo. 3 people who are experts on the subject, and one goof that crammed for the exam for a day.

@ericborzone9506

2 ай бұрын

Yeah but his research is somehow more thorough than theirs

@overkill1025

2 ай бұрын

Research is research

@josehawking5293

2 ай бұрын

Seems to me that unlike Norman who I greatly respect, the other two, although genuine, seem to be more quasi political.🤔 What is the deal with the other guy? Destiny, Don’t no much about him other than his ability to scramble the facts. 🤔

@chadphriday197

2 ай бұрын

Destiny researching wikipedia articles that list these guys as sources.

@adamvifrye2690

2 ай бұрын

@@Tr444ydc6 fucking stupid to say, how do you think the other people got their positions? from going to University and researching, should we not trust the research they got? Do you think they experienced literally everything they know firsthand? at what point does research become unvalued, is it perhaps when it disagrees with your poorly thought out position?

Seeing Destiny's fanbase scrambling to do damage control in the comments section is hilarious and I'm here for it.

@AntiTheBird

2 ай бұрын

Seeing Hasan’s community do the reverse is more funny to me since he wasn’t even involved

@idontwantcorporateretaliat6301

2 ай бұрын

who?@@AntiTheBird

@reformeddoomer6777

2 ай бұрын

​@@AntiTheBirdproving his point 😅

The counter argument of "Israel would've killed more civilians if that was their intention" is so weak & pathetic.

@user-rl1eh8ti6y

2 ай бұрын

Its not tho. These guys are claiming that Isreal is commiting a genocide and their intention is to wipe out as many civilians as possible. Ergo if they were you would expect a lot more deaths in such a densely populated area. Funny way to commit genocide to prewarn civilians they are on their way as well. How about engaging with the fact Hamas deliberately inbed itself in the civilian population and spent money that could have been spent on hospitals or even building sufficient roads to build underground tunnel systems.

@johnsonjunior547

2 ай бұрын

Then what is the explanation? If they are deliberately targeting civilians for a genocide, why do we see so little deaths? And why is the hamas:civilian ratio so low?

@woodyhitya

2 ай бұрын

It’s true. There’s less than 0.5 deaths per bomb dropped by the IDF. They warn civilians of bombings ahead of time via ‘knock knock’ warning munitions as well as dropping fliers including ideal evacuation routes. The IDF takes more effort than any other nation to care for their combatants’ civilians and it’s not even close. Edit: according to the ICRC the average civilian casualty ratio is 1 combatant: 9 civilians, meanwhile the civilian casualty ratio in Gaza is below 1:3.7 based on Hamas’ own published statistics

@talmudovsky

2 ай бұрын

According UN typical ratio for military conflict 9:1 (civilians to combatants). In Gaza - 2:1 (even if you trust numbers from Hamas). Perhaps, Israel could, but it did not mean to.

@whatdatdogdo

2 ай бұрын

​@@talmudovskyyou are just spreading lies here.

Like Ben Shapiro, Steve Bonnell talks 100 miles an hour, it seems they jam packed words so it makes hard for someone to catch their flawed narrative. Watch people when they talk like that, there’s usually a lot of lies. I don’t mind people talk like Finkelstein with slower pace but WELL THOUGHT OUT!

@irene-bz2yq

2 ай бұрын

And their fanboys equate talking fast with high intelligence

@lavendereucalyptus3225

2 ай бұрын

@@irene-bz2yq As high intelligence as a talking robot!

@sheryarahmed6331

2 ай бұрын

@@irene-bz2yq and you idiots equate talking slow and throwing ad homs with high intelligence. All norm did was grandstand and interrupt for five hours in this debate. Frankly, his entire academic work has the intellectual depth of an extremely tedious reddit post.

@adammalad

2 ай бұрын

He speaks fast to hide his lack of knowledge. He’s sitting in a room with titans of knowledge who have been keeping up with this conflict for years and he thinks he can walk in with 2 months of Wikipedia knowledge and speak in their presence. If he wasn’t clouted he’d be waiting outside

@talmudovsky

2 ай бұрын

@@irene-bz2yq Nonetheless, both of them are successful. Coincident?

People getting upset at Norm for calling Destiny a moron don’t seem to grasp that 1.) it’s not an ad hominem when you can demonstrably point out that someone is talking out of their ass, in bad faith, and with zero semblance of logic and morality - at that point, it’s just observation; 2.) Destiny is a streamer trying to tell a man who has over 40 years of research and knowledge that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. It’s not that hard of a concept to grasp.

“When you mention Israel’s war crimes, you essentially say “war is hell” but then when you get to Hamas, all of the sudden you discover morality” Ain’t that the truth. They love this trope

@frmrfr

2 ай бұрын

It was a nice quote, but made zero sense. When someone oversteps morality by such orders of magnitude like Hamas does, it's hard not to talk about it. What Israel is doing is no different than what dozens of not hundreds of countries has done before it.

@1Deep43VA

2 ай бұрын

@@frmrfr Lol sure… you’re either wholly ignorant of the matter or want to perpetuate the narrative that best excuses Israel

@Dss902

2 ай бұрын

That makes sense. Hamas has an evil ideology and Israel does not.

@FBZOMBlES

2 ай бұрын

Israel doesn’t commit war crimes. That’s Hamas.

@FBZOMBlES

2 ай бұрын

@@1Deep43VA That isn’t an argument.

Why is there a streamer in this debate?

@snoopcelev1590

2 ай бұрын

What did he say you don't like?

@nickjewell1

2 ай бұрын

Nothing particular, just stood out as the least capable of having a decent respectful debate. Not to mention the ear piercing yankee whine

@siamsiraji3169

2 ай бұрын

​@@snoopcelev1590he read Wikipedia

@snoopcelev1590

2 ай бұрын

@@siamsiraji3169 what's wrong with that? He read the citations as well

@meez312

2 ай бұрын

​​@@snoopcelev1590you have got to be intellectually stunted if you think that Wikipedia provides sufficient research.

So the ICJ says it’s war crimes but a gamer with a tablet is saying he knows better

Destiny is not an expert lol

@ericborzone9506

2 ай бұрын

Yet he knows so much from studying lol

@VeiledFlameAlchemist

2 ай бұрын

He knows mental gymnastics ​@@ericborzone9506

@josehawking5293

2 ай бұрын

Seems to me that unlike Norman who I greatly respect, the other two, although genuine, seem to be more quasi political.🤔 What is the deal with the other guy? Destiny, Don’t no much about him other than his ability to scramble the facts. 🤔

@robertcampomizzi7988

2 ай бұрын

Can you tell me what he got incorrect?

@spanty7137

2 ай бұрын

@@robertcampomizzi7988 they'll never be able to tell you that 😆

You’d think this debate had no moderator. Lex shouldn’t have allowed the constant shouting match

@ysgatora9287

2 ай бұрын

Lex can't even moderate a single user forum

I think Destiny thinks that political conflicts are a chess game that can be "figured out" and has "correct answers" in a kind of weird mathematical equation.

@TradFortyFive

2 ай бұрын

his claims over and over that "no one cares about international law" sounds exactly like something a youtube debate streamer would say to prove their opponents wrong while having no idea how horrible it sounds to people listening

@bugzpodder

2 ай бұрын

@@TradFortyFive don't forget about the nuke part

@Kassgetsthepass

2 ай бұрын

Political conflicts are complicated but are certainly not random events. They function through rational actors, each with their own reasonings for actions.

@napchill

2 ай бұрын

You said it correctly, it's all game to him, to "own" the other debating team. Meanwhile thousands of children are being decimated. What a waste of time to invite such an unserious guest to this discussion.

There's an old Irish saying; "Like a cat trying to hide it's shit on a marble floor." That sums up these two apologists sat opposite to Norm & Mouin.

@dfmrcv862

2 ай бұрын

You legit can't name me one thing they got factually incorrect in this debate.

@windows-into-spaces

2 ай бұрын

​@@dfmrcv862 you can be factually correct yet arrive at a incorrect, incomplete, or illogical conclusion. you can be factually correct, yet leave certain facts out of your argument that won't add to your narrative. you can be factually correct, yet still paint facts to match a manufactured narrative. you can be factually correct, yet still purposefully zoom in on answerless questions to obfuscate the truth. there are many examples that even the opposite side agreed were incorrect, including when Bennry Morris agreed that Norm/Mouin made a good point when it came to the double standards between Israel and Palestine. standing around discussing facts is not what a debate is for. a debate is to debate IDEAS backed by facts, and we can lead to different ideas from the same set of facts. that's what critical thinking is. I, Norm, Mouin, and many others, have come to a conclusion based on the FACTS of the conflict (and the many before) in Gaza is a slaughter of the Palestinian people and collective punshiment for Hamas's actions, and I think that's wrong and should be stopped. Clearly, Mr. Barelli and Morris disagree. that's precisely what a debate is for, you birdbrain.

@dfmrcv862

2 ай бұрын

@@windows-into-spaces nice speech. Your mother must be very proud. Now which facts did Destiny leave out?

@dfmrcv862

2 ай бұрын

@@windows-into-spaces what fact did Destiny leave out? Or do you not know the meaning of sophistry?

@dfmrcv862

2 ай бұрын

@@windows-into-spaces just one fact Destiny got wrong? Please?

This is why debates should be 1-1 with a moderator. Otherwise you get constant interruptions, yelling, and people getting angry…as you can see here. It should’ve been Finkelstein vs Morris with a moderator, each side speaking for 15 minutes or so at a time.

@ChantelJordan-fm7kx

2 ай бұрын

Finkelstien would need 15 min just to introduce himself

@talmudovsky

2 ай бұрын

First off, nobody should give Finkel a platform for him being a con artist. However, Destiny pulled off this debate brilliantly even being an underdog in the room. He managed rare fit neutering Finkel and actually allowing some useful dialog taking place.

Just because civilians have died throughout history in wars, does that mean it should happen forever? Isn’t the whole point of progression going against things that were considered normal in history? example: slavery?

@billusher2265

2 ай бұрын

Even that’s a false comparison because Israel is doing even less to avoid civilians than what is done historically, for example dropping 2K lb bombs in civilian areas, for comparison the largest the US used on ISIS was 500 lb

@FBZOMBlES

2 ай бұрын

@@billusher2265Objectively false.

@meandu2-fh8jr

2 ай бұрын

@@FBZOMBlEShow?

@frmrfr

2 ай бұрын

Are you implying some fantasy land where there exists a war with zero deaths? Keep dreaming. Destiny brings up a valid point towards the end. The discussion that SHOULD be happening is how do we govern wars/conflict that occur in an urban setting like Gaza. The rules likely shouldn't be the same as typical warfare, but no one wants to have that discussion. Instead they want to scream "GENOCIDE APARTHEID" at the top of their lungs

@FBZOMBlES

2 ай бұрын

Yes. That’s the reality of war.

Lex's demeanor throughout the entire debate is that of a child who just dropped a lit match into a vat of gasoline

Destiny makes this unwatchable.

@somethingginterestingg4275

2 ай бұрын

I thought the same about Finkelstein

@andymccallum8090

2 ай бұрын

destiny hardly spoke !!hahah

@Yemmy23337

9 күн бұрын

@@somethingginterestingg4275Because you dont understand what he is saying, you are too stupid.

"You only collect of the UN says what you like" Destiny says, right after collecting of the UN says what he likes.

Is Borelli a second coming of Shapiro?

@ysgatora9287

2 ай бұрын

it's funny because Destiny hated being called that so much, when his current self is even more alike Shapiro than ever.

There’s a reason they don’t let you cite Wikipedia in essays and stuff in school as a source. Because anyone can (& has) edit it

@bonbon7808

2 ай бұрын

That’s not accurate, especially for some of the more controversial pages, they are locked and monitored by staff, if you want to see edits made you can and you can cite or look at what the wiki cites in the footnotes. +mr.bobble read more than just Wikipedia, he did it on stream

@GertySam

2 ай бұрын

Okay, but like do you have a broader point? It feels like you’re edging us with what I’m sure is a well thought out argument.

@MegaPaddz

2 ай бұрын

@@nealcassady-yn3bh Yep, most likely Shin Bet agents have unlimited editing power without any records appearing on Wiki.

@reformeddoomer6777

2 ай бұрын

​@@bonbon7808I vividly remember Hassan and Destiny fans fighting on Wikipedia, changing the definition of "Gusano" a year or two ago. Wikipedia is not used as a primary source in any academic settings because of this.

@closed11609

Ай бұрын

No, but do you know where people get their articles from when they cite something? typically, they find those sources in wiki

How did that girl destiny even get the privilege to sit across from someone like that finklestein guy 😂😂😂😂 finklestein has like 30 years of research on this very topic. Destiny was playing Minecraft 10 years ago 😂😂😂

@PC8905

2 ай бұрын

And yet in a debate setting as far as this clip goes. Destiny technically won. The second finklestein went after destiny personally and not the arguments he lost. You have to show people why Destiny is an idiot by attacking his arguments if they are in fact idiotic. Simply calling someone an idiot and not backing it only fools idiots into believing the arguments being made are dumb. Finkelstein may be smarter, but he didn’t do well in this debate clip.

@24mahrama

2 ай бұрын

@@PC8905 as far as this clip goes ;) yes! Watch the interview. There is an immense level difference in knowledge on this topic between the mentioned individuals. Destinys lack of knowledge is poorly disguised by some pre meditated questions he prepared that have been answered time and time again and have lack of interrogation and true questioning. all general questions that are so subpar, finklestein shouldn’t of even answered , truly. Second hand embarrassment is what I felt watching the interview. Lex Friedmans is clearly pro Israel and you can see it from the way he interjects Norman opposed to how he interjects the pro Israel individuals. This is an all around waste of a discussion. No one in that room listened to the Jewish man who dedicated his life to this very topic. The Jewish man who’s parents suffered under Nazi German in a concentration camp. I’m sorry, Norman finklestein.

@PC8905

2 ай бұрын

@@24mahrama immense lack of knowledge doesn’t mean his arguments hold no weight. An argument or point is valuable on its on merit. To the extent they have been answered over and over then it should have been easy to do again. Norms partner was wonderful in that setting. This type of debate type setting really didn’t do norm justice.

When Israel kills civilians it’s accidental. Different standard for Hamas. You can only get this racist attitude from a people used to being on top.

@armandoocana409

2 ай бұрын

Yes... This is literally the point... Hamas HUNTED for civilians and continue to do so. Israel is hunting Hamas who btw is using their own civilians as cover... you can't honestly think they are the same things

@David-yo8fv

2 ай бұрын

the keyword is targeted, the anti-ISIS killed a lot of civilians but they aren't regarded as evil because they didn't target them

@KytexEdits

2 ай бұрын

Nobody is alleging them of killing civilians on purpose today, in Gaza. The only time was oct 7th, which was absolutely on purpose. Do you not agree? Is it racist to acknowledge the slaughter of hundreds of civilians in their homes. I've also seen the videos of them kidnapping women with curiously bloody pants, I wonder how that happened! Or the one where a woman was shot in the head, her body on the ground... with her pants off! I guess this is not intentional, I'm just racist, my bad.

@dondiegodeazambuja9410

2 ай бұрын

@@armandoocana409 Israel hunts for civilians. Unless you have been under a rock, what do you think 'the mowing of the lawn' is? Or the raids in the West bank. IDF hunts civilians even children(7 year old was kidnapped in the west bank) last week. Hamas can also make the same claim that they went after IDF soldiers and found their wives and children. And yes what Israel does is worse than what hamas did.

@meez312

2 ай бұрын

​​@@armandoocana409if Israel is hunting for Hamas why is it that most of the killed and injured are women and children? Why have their politicians explicitly verbalized genocidal intent?

Tears-tosterone

@brockobama4408

2 ай бұрын

Soyosterone. And kosh-sterone

@acidbased

2 ай бұрын

Yours doesn't work because they're not a play on the word testosterone. you just said soyo-? kosho? it sucks that I have to explain that to you. do better dawg.@@brockobama4408

@HumanBeingsRThinkingBeings

2 ай бұрын

Mind Begs the Question: - If policies of Starvation,Death Camps,Pogroms,Gassing/White Phosphorus,Ethnic Cleansing,etc are repeated - Doesn't amount to Holocaust?

according to wikipedia lol this all felt very disingenuous, why on earth couldnt we find another scholar to sit next to mr morris, even dershowitz would have been better than some youtube debate streamer

@PC8905

2 ай бұрын

Did it bring norm down that much to have destiny as an opponent? I felt like Norm needed to be replaced sadly. I was sure destiny was the weakest link and he probably is on this subject overall, However, within the context of debate, and within this structure Norm looked like he was on the struggle bus. Maybe the other debates he doesn’t result to personal attacks.

Really curious what Norm thinks about PDFs.

Destiny never should have said Wikipedia even as a joke cause then this guy continues to harp on it as if it wasn’t a joke and he gets all his information from it

@josehawking5293

2 ай бұрын

Seems to me that unlike Norman who I greatly respect, the other two, although genuine, seem to be more quasi political.🤔 What is the deal with the other guy? Destiny, Don’t no much about him other than his ability to scramble the facts. 🤔

@Mushruums

2 ай бұрын

@@josehawking5293you have said this exact sentence and copy and pasted it on multiple comments.

@Acacontrols

2 ай бұрын

But destiny does actually get most if not all of his knowledge from wikipedia

@cubby530

2 ай бұрын

@@josehawking5293Norman made no points in this entire convo all he did was ad hom fallacy attacks or insulting

@johnsonjunior547

2 ай бұрын

It just makes Norm look bad. He can't actually make a point so he resorts to adhom.

Wow... This is collective mass psychosis in action

Steven needs to get a "Mr Borelli" t shirt to own his appearance lol

What a shitshow this discussion was, Lex needs to keep these over the top ideologues in order lol

@ItsAllCulturalMarxism

2 ай бұрын

Cleeks!

@thoughtsofalostoneofalosto2591

2 ай бұрын

I enjoyed it. He let the conversation go the way it needed to go. I just like the fact that they stood on what they understood.

Destiny would call a hospital a "previously identified Hamas Hotspot"

@maroonblood151

2 ай бұрын

Because hospitals lose their protective status if they house military operations. So yes, destiny and international law would call it a hotspot.

@SeveNStarSeveN

2 ай бұрын

How is this an own, you realize that stuff like hospitals and schools become valid military targets after they are used as such, right?

@tylerchapman9234

2 ай бұрын

Because Hamas hides under hospitals

@johnsonjunior547

2 ай бұрын

Oh yeah because storing and firing munitions should be a "safe zone" that makes hamas invincible. What a dumbass thought that the magical way to win wars is just sit on top of a hospital and you're golden

@goldfaust8613

2 ай бұрын

@@SeveNStarSeveN you think it’s okay to bomb a hospital where thousands of sick people are?

Destiny didn't say books were a waste of time... they're just a waste of time for him. I don't believe he should be a part of this debate, as he's done very little historical research on the topic

Shoutout to destiny for ruining the debate :)

@boofclouds199

2 ай бұрын

Mad cause he speaks facts?

@nmir7499

2 ай бұрын

Mad because he's not an expert in the field. He sticks out like a sore thumb.

@2russo.phobic4u

2 ай бұрын

Rabbani was best then Morris Destiny and racist Finklestein came in last.

@exiledhebrew1994

2 ай бұрын

@@boofclouds199mad because he’s advocating for dehumanizing Palestinians

@elliotjoseph6093

2 ай бұрын

Dude fucking Norm killed this debate because he can't take criticism.

That dummy in the black jacket ruined the discussion

@jetsu3yahoo

2 ай бұрын

Why you mad because he was stating the facts how they are? This is a war between a islamic jihadist org and a sovereign democratic jewish state

@Charliekewl91

2 ай бұрын

how? Please elaborate?

@johnsonjunior547

2 ай бұрын

Oh yeah, him making points that Benny agreed with while norm gets pissed and throws ad homs for 5 hours and appeal to authorities. Oh the horror of how he ruined the discussion!!

@gguttr

2 ай бұрын

@@johnsonjunior547It's so stupid to belive that zionists had any good arguments. They were runed over. Benny tryed hard to opose oposee any argument from Finkelstein and Rabbani and he had to shout and interrump because he coudn't. The dummy in the black jacket was called a moron and Benny laughed

@gguttr

2 ай бұрын

@@Charliekewl91He had no arguments so he had to shout and interrupt what Finkelstein was saying, he was saying nonsense and didn't let others talk, and the proof is thar he was called a moron and his partner laughed

Correct me if I'm wrong but i think Mr Capelli is an undergrad drop out of like the University of Nebraska or Kansas or something.

Why would you include a debate bro named after a stripper?

@ChantelJordan-fm7kx

2 ай бұрын

A cuck who talks fast and is relevant to young people on stitch has more legitimacy than 3 men that have studied and debated this topic publicly for the last 30 years.

Why is this so entertaining? Not educational, but entertaining

@zm8454

2 ай бұрын

Because Finkelstein is a clown.

@keynight7513

2 ай бұрын

Because mouin is actually responding to benny and steven with coherent arguments whereas finkle is ad-homming

@winter666madness

2 ай бұрын

because its bloodsports and drama

@educatedfool5121

2 ай бұрын

Because you have two clowns trying to talk over one another acting as if they're both geniuses when they're really just a couple of idiots.

@brockobama4408

2 ай бұрын

Over the top stereotypical jews having a freak out session

And a certified Mr. Borelli classic - one for the ages - at @5:41 😂😂😂

@FlummoxedCartwright

2 ай бұрын

The stuff about the machines is quite something too.

Why is that child sitting in this debate? Sure, finklestein got emotional, because there's a literal child sitting in front of him arguing things base on wiki articles and hearsay. Terrible match up. Should've been 1v1 morris and finklestein.

@TheRemon62

2 ай бұрын

Hearsay is all they all have. Books and reports is the only thing they all where referring too, so just because someone has read a report before the other doesn’t mean they are the only expert on the subject now.

@fazzification

2 ай бұрын

@@TheRemon62 but it does make them an expert if they've read a LOT more reports, and have been doing so for decades. That's what expertise requires. Reading/observing multiple sources on topics, assessing those sources, and making your own conclusions about them. Finklestein is the offspring of holocaust survivors, how do you think he got to this point of view?

@PC8905

2 ай бұрын

Attack the parchment not the person. Finkelstein looked worse than some punk kid because he didn’t attack the argument. If it was 1 on a drop finklestein and destiny. It seemed Norm went emotional, bad faith real quick

This is hard going…”it’s so painful to listen to this idiocy”.

Everyone is debating the correct definition of what Israel is committing: genocide versus war casualty. They are ignoring the fact that more than 30,000 innocent Palestinians have been killed in this war. 22 members of my family, friends, and neighbors have been killed, and yet we are still searching for the definition of their killers.💔

@Andrew-pv8oz

2 ай бұрын

If you haven’t figured it out by now, majority people only care as long as it affects them personally. Just the would we live in

@youtubeusername1239

2 ай бұрын

Insane but this is legit a bot account

@frmrfr

2 ай бұрын

We should probably also be discussing why Palestine is in this position to begin. Acting like Isreal is just randomly "genociding" people and not taking ownership for some these actions is exactly why these conversations don't happen.

@user-lr6bq3vu8h

2 ай бұрын

@youtubeusername1239, why do you think I'm a bot account?

@Sweetleaf2001

2 ай бұрын

Well they shouldn’t have elected Hamas. And as soon as they did, your family should have left!

I don't read off those machines 😂💀

@brianhalps

2 ай бұрын

the man said it, "I don't spend all night on Wikipedia".... damn he is out of touch. Look I know Wiki ain't a source for dissertation papers, but it's got enough verifiable information to piece together a very strong understanding of what is actually going on.

Please interview Natasha Hausdorff

Why the moderator doesn’t shut the mouths of who continuously interrupted Prof. Finkelstein?

Mr broccoli is out of his depth 😂😂😂

@Ili_chilli

2 ай бұрын

Broccoli came prepared with his ipad and strong wifi connection hahaha

Valid questions. What justifies one human hurting another?

@WizardofGargalondese

2 ай бұрын

There are many many things that could justify this.

@eruetiwilson9250

2 ай бұрын

@@WizardofGargalondese Can you list them please.

@eruetiwilson9250

2 ай бұрын

@WizardofGargalondese I'm trying understand what is going on and I hold a belief, though not a religious one, that I was not born with the right to harm anyone. I guess the right to protect myself from harm comes into play but if the person harming beleived in not harming then where does that go?

@alireza4762

2 ай бұрын

​​​@@eruetiwilson9250 It's not that the idf believes in not harming the people, but harming in many cases is justified. For example in case of self defense you "harm" the hostile party. But then again you could say innocent people aren't hostile and while that is true, that doesn't take away from Israeli's perspective their right to defend themselves since: Based on international law any civillian area/building becomes military object , if military activity is indentified in said area/place and after that they can assess if the loss of innocent lives is worth for that specific military objective to be achieved.( Another reasons why wars are horrible ,just or unjust)

@tylerchapman9234

2 ай бұрын

Religion

This is not a debate they just screaming... lex cmon

MR. Borelli! Hwhahhahahhaha

Hasn't Destiny heard of the Hannibal directive?

@tomatenbomber8830

2 ай бұрын

im sure he would go the same way as the IDF and either claim it doesnt exist or it didnt get invoked or all the deaths in relation to it are tragic accidents

Just goes to show no matter how educated you are. If you think you are right, you will yell until the other side concedes and don’t really want to listen

Hamas numbers because we don’t have eyes do you think we are stupid.

I dont know what is the point of arguing if idf troops are well organized or not if they still kill thousands of civillians? For me its even worse. In other way around israel would say they made mistake based on wrong intel or it was action of roque agents, but no! They insist that every target is deliberate, their info is infallible and it was accepted by high ranking officers whose job is to esure that tactical actions of soldiers in field are inline with policies of israeli state! Thats insane! Idk im really confused right now, if i was idf apologist arguing against genocide intention, i would try to convice rest of the world that i didnt want to kill any civilians, yet Mr Morris and Mr Benelli M4 Combat Shotgun do oposite! Madness.

@tomatenbomber8830

2 ай бұрын

i also thought the line of argument against them would go towards what you were saying but i guess the shouting took over. Its so dumb, either the idf is well organised and then the targeting of civilians is top down, or they are not and then the targeting of civilians is incompetence.

who the fuck is that guy?

terrible debate

Love that no matter how passionate and angry people get defending their side. Ultimately it does nothing and won’t solve the problem. In fact it worsens it

Norm was just mad he couldn't talk as fast as Borelli

The false equivalence between hamas and Israel is silly

@demitri2510

2 ай бұрын

It’s really not. Israel kills wayyyy more civilians than Hamas and it’s becoming quite clear that they are willing to trade 100 civilains for 1 Hamas fighter. Wouldn’t be surprised if they see that as 101 Hamas being killed in one strike.

@mv4424

2 ай бұрын

That's true Israel is a danger to the world

@josehawking5293

2 ай бұрын

Funny thing is, there is none.🤔 Hamas and Israel are terrorist states.🤔

@Orlando2914

2 ай бұрын

Yeah, one of them targeted 3 times an order of magnitude of civilains. There other one is called a terrorist organization.

@diagorasofmel0s

2 ай бұрын

its like comparing a nuclear state to sand men with nothing left but fight for their land

"I know how The IDF work's because I have never been in the IDF and I have talked to some of them so I Know and they told me How they Work" Destiny 😒

@alanunruh7310

2 ай бұрын

pretty sure the guy sitting right next to him was in the service.............. sooooooooooo yea his source is right next to him lol

@egadvideo

2 ай бұрын

@@alanunruh7310 exactly. And I listened to what He himself said during THIS... When it was said that the IDF was chaos, his defense was only the Air Force and not any other IDF branch of the military. He tells on himself if questions are asked and answered...

@egadvideo

2 ай бұрын

@@alanunruh7310 so sitting next to an ex soldier qualifies You as an expert for the IDF in your opinion?

@anthonymanzo7867

2 ай бұрын

damn thats crazy I didn't think using these " " allows someone to completely fabricate a statement by someone else and then treat is as fact. well, when in Rome "I can't hold my own attention span for more than 30s, I have never been able to make a coherent statement on my own, so I KNOW the truth." egadvideo

@asdfboochica

2 ай бұрын

The UN has yet to find any evidence that the IDF is being ordered to target civilians in this conflict, the UN report made that very clear. If you have evidence otherwise I suggest you send it to the ICJ

this did not go well. May as well replay Ben and Destiny, same chat more respect

@tonywords6713

2 ай бұрын

One on one, way less chaotic and emotionally charged since Ben and Destiny are far more aligned by virtue of being bad faith grifters.

@simonwilliamson682

2 ай бұрын

true and agreed but couldnt even listen to this@@tonywords6713

I'm sure there are some people with German surnames in south America loving this

The Israel dudes aren’t reasonable

@ErickCraftz

2 ай бұрын

Who’s resorting to ad homs?

@Ili_chilli

2 ай бұрын

your mum is@@ErickCraftz

@VeldinBuljubasic-mx7sz

Ай бұрын

Fr they're professional victims that take no accountability whatsoever

What a heartless human Destiny is. “What does that prove?” And laughing. Unbelievable.

Funniest bit is when the boychild is trying to say it’s ridiculous that the policy comes from the top down and yet Mr Morris is saying that it is the total opposite, that nothing happens on the ground without top down approval.

Accepting war crimes under the rationalization that “war is hell…” is to forgo the entire notion that the concept of war crimes should exist at all. Im so tired of these schmucks saying that what is happening is somehow okay.

@andymccallum8090

2 ай бұрын

the icj didn't rule there is genocide happening. also destiny is not denying the the idf is guilty of war crimes just not genocide. you do realise there is more to war crimes then genocide?

@brawler99

2 ай бұрын

@@andymccallum8090 Try to find the word ‘genocide’ in my post. Thats a different but related point which I do happen to believe is true. But to the point of ‘war crimes’: These should not be tolerated, by the IDF, by Hamas, or anyone else. If we can not agree on that fundamental point then- wow… just wow.

@andymccallum8090

2 ай бұрын

@@brawler99 the problem I have is that I don't think people do any research. they just watch the news see that 30000 people have died and conclude it must be genocide. its inconceivable for them that number could happen even without specific intent of killing civilians. intent is key here. There is no question that individual idf soldiers have committed war crimes and they should be held accountable. however genocide is a policy that would be implemented wholesale. at this moment there is no evidence for this, however there could be in the future I don't know.... oh and here something people should say more often. "i dont know" instead of throwing the word genocide and accusing people of supporting it, I don't think they themselves realise how serious of an accusation that is. This shouldn't be a term that is used so eagerly, especially given that there isn't evidence. Plausibility is a pretty low bar. it doesn't mean there is evidence not even close. And it doesn't even mean we suspect there is a genocide.

"Stick to proportionality" as he insists 12,000 Childreen is nothing. But is still upset by "only" 1200 Israelis

Why are these two men allowed to constantly interrupt? Who was the horrible person that was supposed to be running this debate?

I almost died laughing when Finkelstein said he was going to answer the question and then says ... "in 2018..."

@ericborzone9506

2 ай бұрын

What a fraud!!😂

@stef4oben88

2 ай бұрын

if you listen closely you will hear Destiny wheezing the second he said 'in 2018'

I don’t respect lex for this having a neutral standpoint is a beta move. Pick a side and be part of the convo especially if it’s on ur platform

always remember, that 2 out of 4 get millions from AIPAC here and are specifically trained to do this rhethorical slimeballery

I think when you resort to name calling your opponents you're losing your argument

How did your man go from playing dungeons and dragons to debating with grown ups. This is embarrassing

Never gets old watching destiny faceplant.

@jimmytoothpaste1757

2 ай бұрын

He really didn’t tho. Norm came off horribly in this debate, as he does in many

@amsz6326

2 ай бұрын

He wrecked Norm, he just got more aggressive and tried to dominate by being loud

Norman embarrassed himself

Who in their right mind can sit and listen to a bunch of men continually interrupt each other. My time is more valuable than that.

I mean I was disappointed in Norm. I’ve been a fan of him for a long time. Regardless of your opponent’s credentials, you address the arguments they present. Anything Destiny brought forward Norm could have been professional, even, and measured in his response. Ad homs didn’t persuade anyone to his side. Norm’s debate partner try’s to calm Borm throughout the debate and gives his opponents respect. Norm is giving off stereotypical elitism from academics. Obviously destiny doesn’t know as much as these scholars. However, he knows more about this topic than the average person, so how would interact with a regular person asking questions, stating arguments, etc. would he respond “you’re an imbecile! You don’t know anything!” Beyond unprofessional and rhetorically ineffective. His debate partner did much better.

@PC8905

2 ай бұрын

That norm guy was a complete turn off to his side of the argument. It’s commonly thought that if you attack the person and not the point then you can’t dispute the point. That weakens your position and strengthen theirs. Not what he is trying to do I am sure, but it is in fact a side effect. Norm was actually more of a waste of space then destiny due to his own tactics. Maybe destiny brought Norm down to his level?

@johnnydisgruntled732

2 ай бұрын

I forgive Norm. I have watched Destiny before and the way he debated here changed my mind about the value he provides to debate. He sounds like an IDF spokesperson. He threw out any semblance of critical thinking to support the most grotesque treatment of a population in the world today.

@tripe2237

2 ай бұрын

It was deserved. In hindsight, it's exactly what anyone should have expected Norm to do. Destiny is like a student who thinks he knows more than all of his professors combined. He has obvious double standards and wants to hold one side up to impossibly high standards while making asinine excuses for the other. He's a shining example of Dunning Krugar. His "just asking questions" are disingenuous in various ways. They might sound innocent but they're condescending.

@tomatenbomber8830

2 ай бұрын

@@johnnydisgruntled732 i completely agree. it wasnt good debate behaviour from norm but i think norm is smart enough to know that destiny is smart enough to know better and thats why he got so frustrated.

Destiny the wikipedia page

I can see no debate in Norman’s future. Only speeches.

Even if there is a chain of command, that doesnt mean that entire aparatus isnt heartless, and doesnt excuse individual soldier actions either. The war crimes of individual soldiers reflects the war crimes of the IDF at large

What qualifies Destiny to have any input here? He seems to just read from a script of pro zionist talking points.

Which one of these does not belong. Ummm Destiny, the bisexual twitch streamer, gets my vote. Makes my ears bleed.

@__Ben777__

2 ай бұрын

Better be careful, Destiny simps are reporting comments for hate speech for mentioning his orientation or wife leaving him

@ericborzone9506

2 ай бұрын

Too many facts huh

@josehawking5293

2 ай бұрын

Seems to me that unlike Norman who I greatly respect, the other two, although genuine, seem to be more quasi political.🤔 What is the deal with the other guy? Destiny, Don’t no much about him other than his ability to scramble the facts. 🤔

@deathstar754

2 ай бұрын

What does bisexuality have to do with anything? Lmao

@mpetrison3799

2 ай бұрын

This Destiny guy made this a circus. 🎪🐅🐘🪑🦁🤡🎪 🤦🏼

lol when your opening statement is "deal with it i talk slow" and you spend half your time articulating insults, i dont think any amount of quoting makes up for being bad at debating

When Rabanni and Destiny debate, there seems to be an actual conversation going but when Finkelstein goes in just to ad hom Destiny, it all goes downhill.

@aliciamarquez251

2 ай бұрын

Ok mayonnaise

@windows-into-spaces

2 ай бұрын

Destiny does the same shit. Norm gets heated, as would I considering how callous and flippant Destiny is in the entire conversation, and reverts to calling him an idiot. Destiny gets mad, speaks at 500x speed, and says offhanded remarks to get under the skin of the opposing side to win internet points. he's a child.

@zCqiFish

2 ай бұрын

@@windows-into-spaces They're just mot meant to debate each other period. Their tempers are too hot, they're insanely immature to each other and just resort to calling names. They don't even speak at the same fkin wavelength. It should've been Destiny vs Rabanni and Morris vs Finkelstein.

@windows-into-spaces

2 ай бұрын

@@zCqiFish Destiny should not be in this conversation at all, whatsoever. He doesn't have a leg to stand on. Rabanni is brilliant, and they should have had this debate with a person who's not some streamer, and a journalist or historian.

Finklestein got massively triggered by destiny, like keep your cool at least

@VeiledFlameAlchemist

2 ай бұрын

I think anyone would get triggered debating (Manifest)Destiny

@dondiegodeazambuja9410

2 ай бұрын

Because he understood why he was there.

@PC8905

2 ай бұрын

@@VeiledFlameAlchemistthe other guy didn’t. Just Norm. It came off terribly too.