It’s interesting that the numbers for women are a much smaller range perhaps implying that finger strength is more predictive of grade for women than men. Anecdotally I often see women become technically proficient first then as the strength comes they always get to higher grades but there are many strong men who do not actually climb that high of a grade due to poor technique

@tylerhunt8659

Жыл бұрын

Totally agree with this.

@RossPotts

Жыл бұрын

I’m guilty of this. I have plenty of strength but my technique is shit. My climbing partner is pushing past 5.12 and I’m stuck at 5.10. I’ve had some brief trips to 5.11, but very few and far between. At least now my endurance allows me to practice technique a lot.

@cwehden

Жыл бұрын

So true girls seem to gain amazing loose, natural technique more easily than men, less weight obviously helps them a lot in regards to strength to.

@biomorphic

Жыл бұрын

Women are, indeed, much more flexible on average, which helps a lot.

@paulgaras2606

Жыл бұрын

Women who climb are also lighter and shorter on average than men. That would obviously translate to the need to exert less force to stay stuck to the rock. Shorter lever and lower force on the lever.

I was held back by these types of finger strength stats for years, obsessively training fingers to try and be where I 'should have been' for the grade, when I'd have been better off not knowing anything about these averages and training what I felt needed training for my specific goals. It doesn't take into account where someone lives and the rock types in that area. Half crimping a big comfy 20mm flat edge doesn't say much about how well you can full crimp on small holds, pull on slopers, pockets, etc. Only after climbing multiple 8A boulders did I realise that maybe I can climb hard things without having strong fingers on a 20mm edge test.

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

Yes great point Liam. The data can be empowering or paralyzing. It all depends on how you look at it. We would always encourage any strength or fitness test to be considered in the whole context. Using it as information and not just for setting training goals.

@Sergio-zc5ul

Жыл бұрын

Climbing is such a complex sport that it is incredibly hard to quantify in a way that fully reflects ability. Strength benchmarks such as hangboarding and pull ups give us only part of the picture, but I wish there was a way of measuring climbing skill as well.

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

@@Sergio-zc5ul Yeah that would be awesome. Currently I think this best option is to collect quantifiable data where possible and then look at movement, mindset and goals from an 1-to-1 coaching perspective. Any one on its own is useful but part of an incomplete puzzle.

@drstrangelove85

Жыл бұрын

I climb V4 on a kilter board without problems and I can't even hang on 20 mm edges for a second.

@Will-kt5jk

Жыл бұрын

@@drstrangelove85 5:45 the - male V4 goes down to 90% body weight on the low end of the standard deviation (don’t know the sample sizes - if there were fewer women in the sample, the same pattern could emerge with more data)

It would be interesting to put this to the test and ask people to try finger hangs and pull-ups at the depot and see what the results are. Then ask them what their level is after

This was so boring. I thought I was going to see an experiment. Instead you just played the world's dullest game of 'guess the weight'. What a way to milk simple research findings for way too long. With my terrible grip strength, I'm surprised I held on til the end.

I love data! Thanks for all the work you guys do collecting and analyzing all this info! These are so cool :)

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

Was just relearning Selection Bias yesterday. Well defined in this video. Bravo.

Really surprised by this. I climb a lot around V3-V5 and I was expecting the average V4 climbing to be less than body weight as I'd struggle to hold a 20mm edge with more. Looks like I need to focus on finger strength especially as I'm 6'2!

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

Taller climbers tend to have less finger strength for a given grade! The data set we look at in this video is more of a global view so likely has a mean/avergage height much less than yours. If you want to check out how you measure up with your own personal metrics (which might be more inline with your height) have a go at the MyFingers assessment. Having said that, the minimum requitement is that you can hang bodyweight on the edge you intend to test on.

@penyalius

Жыл бұрын

@@LatticeTraining Do you mean less relative finger strength or less absolute finger strength? Important distinction.

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

@@penyalius Yes sorry, that is an important distinction, I thought it might have been obvious in this context 😅. I mean relative finger strength, the measure we used in the video.

@JDPrimeShots

Жыл бұрын

Same boat my man, v4/v5 climber. At 6feet,70kg. I can currently hold (half crimp) a 20mm for 6s max at 90% bw. Maybe it's time to train my fingers 🤔

@garywheaton7112

Жыл бұрын

At 6’1 and 205 pounds I have total weight hung numbers of most of the V11 climbers tested and relative body weight numbers closer to the V4 climbers 😂

Really interesting video again, thanks.

Whilst I love data and logging training, I do find I'm unable to perform well in testing (fingers, pull-ups etc). There's something about climbing on rock that allows me to try that much harder than indoors and hence I seem to be able to climb grades much higher than my metrics suggest (113% BW 20mm edge and 120% 2rep max pull-ups for V6 boulder and 7c sport RP).

This is fascinating, and I'd love to see similar data for sport climbing instead of bouldering. This also really supports my personal assessment that finger strength is my biggest limiting factor in my bouldering at the moment, I get heavily shut down on harder climbs, but can consistently climb most things below my max grade. Pullup strength, I'm pretty average for a higher grade than looking at this finger strength data.

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

If you complete a MyFingers test we report for both boulder and sport grades. It's totally free :)

This is great! Now I know for certain that based on this data set my finger strength is my biggest area of weakness. My max test ever is ~ +42% and I've climbed v9 in the last 2 years. I always suspected that I was underperforming in this area because other males at a similar level are pulling way higher than me. Thanks for the video and insights.

@matthewsevers5862

Жыл бұрын

Don’t worry, my data is even worse. My max test has been around 135% and I climbed V10 last spring.

Might be interesting to do the same test but with a fixed set of kilterboard climbs to determine the climbing grade.

@5tr4nge75

Ай бұрын

Why use kilterboard? Moonboard is the icon for a reason

@karlderdelinckx

Ай бұрын

@@5tr4nge75any widely available standard trainingboard will do fine. Moonboard would be difficult for the lower grades though.

Very interesting. I restarted climbing again after a 3 years break. I had 10 sessions so far, in about 3/4 weeks, and I climbed five V4 boulders, almost flashed two of them, and flashed several V3. So I can say I am actually a V3/V4 climber, probably from 6 to 8 kg overweight considering my current muscle mass. I have been much stronger. I used to do pull ups with a single hand, now I can't do more than 6 with two hands. But I can hold into the board for at least 7 seconds, with two hands, of course. I know because I have done it the other day. I am still not capable to climb a V5, I can see I don't have enough strength for that, and not only on my fingers. But I am pretty happy with my progress. I can't say I am new to the sport, because I have been climbing on and off through the course of my life. We'll see how fast I can improve, and which grade I will do in one year time.

I'd really love to see max hang % on the y-axis with either height or wingspan on the x-axis, for climbers of the same max grade. Because I'm at 177% bw, but max grade is only v6, and I think my mega strong strength-to-weight ratio is because I am mega small 😅

I’m a solid v4/5 climber and can barely do 115% so this is really interesting data. I would have thought the difference gets bigger the higher you go (way more than 40% from v4 to v11) but maybe it’s because the crimps get smaller at the high grades. I would bet technique becomes even more crucial at the high grades.

These are boulder results right, would be interested in seeing route climb comparison, strength/grade wise for route climbing. Like what % added bodyweight vs route climbing grades.

How would I compare my max weights if I use a tension block attached to weights(so no hang finger training)? Since I'm not hanging and also it's unilateral. Would I just add my weights of each hand together? So if I'm holding 50lbs in each hand then I'd say I'm doing 100lbs and compare that to my bodyweight and then that would give me my % or is it not that simple?

How about max (1 rep) pullup next? Would be good to see that to round it out.

It'd be really useful to see this data versus sport climbing grade! It's interesting that you say people are mostly reporting their outdoor bouldering grade, that makes an _enormous_ difference.

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

Our free test MyFingers reports for both bouldering and sport grades. If you are interested in comparing to your own metrics you can get a personalised report 😊

My guess for the range difference between men and women at v11 is that men tend to be bigger and heavier (as many have said) but also TEND to have stronger "big muscles" (lats and pecs), lending towards compression, burley style climbing, which usually requires less finger strength and more squeeze. There are plenty of v11 compression bros who only climb v7 crimp lines, whereas you TEND to see more females excel at crimping, and not as much at thuggy slapping. Slopers are obviously more condition dependent but it would be really interesting to look at sloper strength or compression style metrics and see how that compares to grades

Wow, pullups were bang on for me around my grade, but I can barely do +6% bw hangs. Looks like I don't need much of an assessment to tell me to get hanging more

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

Haha glad we could help ;)

Well this has driven home for me that my finger strength is WAY behind the norm for my climbing grade, which is a kick in the pants to get on with some actual training!

Wow, I’d expect figures to be high for v7 - 11 but that’s a high average percentage for v4. Interested to do the test.

What is an appropriate finger strength progression for new climbers? IE, how fast should I expect to improve max hangs/grades without hurting myself? I was climbing v3ish after about 2 months of climbing, and injured 2 of my pulleys. Wondering what a good plan is to avoid that going forward. 80kg bodyweight if that makes a difference. Can do bodyweight hangs, but not more than 1 or 2 sets at a time.

@bullydungeon9631

Жыл бұрын

It's probably more important that you find a rehab routine and find a way to be on the wall without injuries

@ManMilk07

Жыл бұрын

I'm not a pro, been climbing V4/V5 for a while now, but if you do couple "rep", maybe 3x15 sec before climbing, you wont hurt yourself. You can add weight if you feel like you're not progressing quickly enough. Also try the narrower part of the board.

@viniciuscollaco

Жыл бұрын

With this historic it's more apropriate not focus on finger strength or hangboard right now. It's possible that you are not rest enough, focus on just climb (not every day, maybe 3 times a week) and training antagonist muscle on "rest days", and get at least one really rest day on the week.

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

Good question but its not the kind of thing we can give a definitive answer to over YT comments, there are far to many "it depends". My general advise if using a hangboard as a new climber is to not worry about levels of strength and use the tool to condition the fingers and forearms for longevity and not for increasing hangboard numbers, at least at first. Injuries usually occur when we overload the system e.g. too much climbing or too much hangboarding, or usually a combination of the two. Neither is dangerous but doing too much all at ounce is where the risk comes in. Setting goals for numbers or training for some expected outcome can push us to add more training before we are ready. The rate of your personal progression depends on previous training background, genetics, diet, recovery, frequency and intensity of climbing sessions, hangboard exercise, grip type etc. So you can see why its hard to give any specific advice without a proper 1-to-1.

@wenlambotomy6231

Жыл бұрын

New climbers should concentrate just on climbing. Not worry about finger strength training and finger boarding until after 18months or you’ll likely just get injured.

Wondering whether this equivalence is fully representative, insofar as different wall profiles require different strengths. In short, isn't likely that a 7c slab wizzard will have 'weaker' fingers than a 7c 20 degree overhang warrior?

Spot on for me: I've climbed V7 in the past two years and I can hang 140% of bodyweight (and I'm male)

What's your take on people who have strong fingers but perform poorly on the hangboard because of other muscle groups (shoulders mostly)? I know people who climb around 7a/7b and can hold tiny holds on rock, but can barely hang with bodyweight on the 20mm edge. My guess is the shoulders are not really a factor on the typical slightly overhangings terrain with small holds and bad feet you often get in this grade range, but it is of course for hanging on a 20mm edge in half crimp position.

@simonrobbins815

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, that's a really good question. I climb at around that level and can only just do 110% on the fingerboard but I have relatively strong shoulders (can do >130% pull-up 1RM). It's certainly a complex subject and finger strength on the rock doesn't seem to always translate to good fingerboard scores.

+30% average for V4?! On a 20mm, right? I don't even come close. I've flashed 9+ red circuit boulders at the Depot in a single session. Must be my technique/flexibility.

Last assement i did i got 150%, so more or less exactly in the middle since my max grade climed is 7A+/V7. I did the assement a couple of days after finishing a 6 week latice+ upper body plan that uncreased my max hangs with about 10/15%. I think my fingers are stronger then the what i tested, because my shoulders always have been the limiting factor when testing max finger strenght.

Wow... I have been climbing for 3years now and I have noticed that I have relatively weak fingers for my level. I have climbed V7 outdoors and fairly many V7 and some V8 indoors, but i can only add around 20% weight on 20mm hangs with half crimp even I train fingers regularly. I really have to be happy for my technique I guess, but I rrrreeeaally need to focus on some real strength training for my fingers...

@biomorphic

Жыл бұрын

I am surprised you do such a grade with such weak fingers. I think I can match the 20% weight in a month or two, but I will not climb V7 when I do, not even V6, possibly a few V5. You must be very efficient if you do such grade.

@myusen

Жыл бұрын

​@@biomorphic or maybe how can you not climb harder with such strong fingers😅😅 i know some 7b climbers with about 20-30% bw added

@biomorphic

Жыл бұрын

@@myusen I wonder if I will ever be able to climb 7b. I think the key to progress is not to get injured.

Aidan's knuckle pulsing at @0:38 is wild.

@MrDummyKicker

20 күн бұрын

neurological connections are so strong that his hands have their own brain

I think this is accurate. I am a v7-v8 climber and i tried adding weight to my hangs for the first time yesterday. I could add 46% on 18mm (bestmaker 2000) for 10 seconds while maintaining good form. I think my ability to climb v8 relies on overhang climbs that don’t target fingers on small edges as much and relies more on overall upper body strength. Interesting data, very accurate in my case.

I don’t pay attention to the difficulty’s I’m a new climber iv done reds purples attempted whites but failed, getting all the amazing injury’s lol loving climbing atm but iv hit the point where I’m fully aware my finger strength is limiting my climbing and the skin is tearing from my tips lol so I guess iv just gotta keep climbing the routes my fingers are failing me on for strength

Is this for bouldering or sport climbing?

That's bad news for my technique I'm afraid. I score 149% in half crimp position, and I'm only V5. The paradox is, I very often feel like I'm missing finger strength 😣

I'm surprised by the massive variance, especially in V7 for men. The corner cases for 90% range from 110 to 180. How would you interpret that? My guess is that finger strength is still an important factor, but (probably highly affected on the style of climb) that you can compensate low finger strength with good technique or high strength in other places (body tension, explosiveness). Finger strength seems to become more important for higher grades though (corner cases starting at 130%). But imo shows, that if you pick the right style of climb, you can get away with quite a few weaknesses. Also interesting that the female cohort has higher lower bounds, but lower higher bounds, than men (more narrow distribution).

@SonnyKnutson

Жыл бұрын

I think you are spot on. Climbing styles and a lot of other factors play a huge role. Mobility/Flexibility. The ability to create tension through the body from the toes to the fingers etc. As always in climbing. Finger strength is just one of many pieces of the puzzle. Although for sure an important one. As contact strength is always super important.

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

Yeah great observations! We see all sorts levels come through. As you say, climbers have a great ability to find ways to compensate (e.g. flexibility vs finger strength) or select climbs that suit them (e.g. sits starts vs dynos 😉)

@liamhutch89

Жыл бұрын

I've done hundreds of problems above V7 on rock and I can't think of any where I needed to half crimp a big comfy 20mm edge at my max for 7 seconds.

@gorik98

Жыл бұрын

@@liamhutch89I think the idea isn’t for this to be representative of real climbing but instead to be a testing standard to assess finger strength. Yes you’re never going to have these conditions on a climb; however if you can hold +30% BW for 7 seconds, you are likely to have stronger fingers than someone who can only hold +10%, and therefore have a higher chance of being able to climb at a grade where finger strength is more important.

@gorik98

Жыл бұрын

@@liamhutch89by aggregating the statistics from hundreds/thousands/+ of people, they can start to get an idea of benchmarks. If x amount of people who climb between V7-V8 also can hold +25% BW on a 20mm edge (haven’t watched video yet so numbers are out of my ass), then a climber who is struggling to breach that grade range may be able to target finger strength to increase their chance of success. To use another example, for a one arm pull-up (OAP) a benchmark I’ve seen on the internet is enough strength to pull +80% BW in a conventional pull-up. There are indeed other factors (technique, arm length, etc) which will affect my ability to do a OAP - however, I know that if I can pull +80% BW and STILL can’t do a OAP then I can eliminate strength as what’s holding me back and focus on technique. Makes sense right?

Is this 1rm 7seconds from a 20mm?

I am confused and I have a question: how does the fingers should look like in this experiment? Is it crimping or putting all your 4 fingers into the hang board and hanging?

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

Hanging with all 4 finger. It can be half crimp or open crimp (chisel). Not full crimping (thumb wrap) or 3 finger open (drag).

@ahmetkul265

Жыл бұрын

@@LatticeTraining thanks for the clarification! :)

@Oguzhandogada

3 ай бұрын

@@LatticeTraining half crimp to open is really changing if you are newbie like me half is much harder

I've been climbing for around 6 months and i can do V4s but i can' hang on anythong smaller than 30mm edges. How weird is that? Btw i fell pretty fit in everything that is not grip strength related.

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

We see this a lot in new climbers if they start with a good base of general fitness. Finger strength will often be behind most other measures. And so they can compensate for lower finger strength for a long time. I've been climbing 11 years and feel like I am still learning and getting stronger so be patient, finger strength will come 😊

I reckon you learn something new every day. Always thought “I reckon” was an old timey American country expression.

This results are baffling me a lot. I am climbing for some years now, and I expect to onsight V4 indoors and outdoors on different angles and rock. I never was even close to hold body weight on 20mm. My climbing partner is missing 4 fingers and also cruising V4. So my experience would be more like: 60-70% for V4. 100% is plenty for V7 with okay-technique and a V4 is a nice warmup. Are people overtraining nowadays?

i can hang 150% bw on 20mm for 6 sec(emom open crimp active hang) average pull up strenght (200%bw) and just started climbing (boulder). I have Low to 0 technique and people who cannot pull up properly (and only do boulder climbing) can flash some way that i couldn't do because i still have to figure out where to put feet and coordination lol. But i think also my calisthenics workout is interfering with that : forearms pump really soon.

@kostrzak18

Жыл бұрын

how can you hang 150% bodyweight without training your fingers ever?

@killdm

Жыл бұрын

@@kostrzak18 sorry did not mention that I did 2 times a week for 8 months prior emom 10 min 6 sec active and rest.

Anyone here who has experience with the moon Armstrong? Cause it's such a humbling board I feel like it's difficult to perform standard tests on, the radiuses on it are really large... I can barely hang the 10s there whereas on other boards I can chill on the eights. 20s also feel fairly hard so I was wondering how the 25s compare to a lattice 20

@Worthley11

Жыл бұрын

I have the board and I also feel it's quite sandbagged due to the large radius. My max hangs are about a full 5mm off from the tension rungs, so my 25mm max on the Armstrong is about equal to my 20mm max on the tension(and most other) boards.

@herrar6595

Жыл бұрын

@@Worthley11 aight, so seems as though my assesment was not too bad

It's very good that you acknowledge out potential problems with methodology, but one of them is really elephant in the room almost to the point of making data useless - self-reporting grades. Grading can vary wildly between gyms and outliers in given grade are pretty common, so you can eventually find something to send, giving you impression that you pushed the number. I suppose this issue disappears with higher grades - nobody cares if v2 is really v2, besides people who are not experienced enough to judge. It could be that outdoor grades aren't this problematic, so it would be nice to know the percentage of outdoor grades in the reports.

Id like to see the results on a 12mm edge. I think this edge size is more applicable to hard climbing than 20mm which seems too juggy.

@TheCultureProjects7

Жыл бұрын

The edge size isn't as relevant as you seem to think. The edge size is relative to the time hanging. 20mm edge is a very very common / standard size for training because its much more forgiving on the skin than something like 12, and that's why data is often based odd of the 20mm edge. There is a lot of research to back up that training on a larger edge size like 20mm is really good for building maximum strength gains. Go watch the Arm lifting video and Yves briefly touches on this

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

Good idea Anthony. Though @BigBackieMan makes a good point. There is lots of research to show 20mm edge testing correlates well with performance even in the higher grades. So it is still quite applicable. And much more comfortable to test on 😅. Also some research to suggest ability on small edges may be more limited by skin pulp and anatomy than testing on a larger edge.

@marks3440

Жыл бұрын

On a small finger board edge I often default to a drag grip. With half crimp in 20mm I can flex my grip slightly during the hang. I’d say larger is a lot better here.

For how long are they holding it? 6s?

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

7 seconds

It would be nice to know what a max hold is, i dont understand what you mean by that

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

Hang on a 20mm edge (2 hands), with as much weight as you can sustain for 7 second.

@MatthewGirling

Жыл бұрын

@@LatticeTraining 2 hands

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

@@MatthewGirling Woops, I'll edit ;)

You should do one for 1 rep max weighted pull-ups

At least i know my finger/pull up strength is not an issue. Gotta work on that technique and endurance though! I look like an ogre climbing the wall haha. I feel like this test is much more accurate for those who have been climbing for at least a few years. Between the 2 tests, I should be theoretically climbing v9-v10 (20+ pull ups and a 160% hang) but I only climb v4. To be fair though, I come from a powerlifting/armwrestling/grip sport background which explains my test results and only recently got into climbing about 2 months ago. Funny though, my gf also climbs v4 and can barely hang her own bodyweight on the 20mm for 7 seconds.

please use the same axis when displaying graphs side by side.

I'm sorry, so I'm effed. I weight 200 pounds lean, and based on some of these numbers I'd have to have 300+ hangs in order to do v11 v12? Am I screwed

@simonlandau8337

Жыл бұрын

How tall are you? Because often times taller people need less relative fingerstrength than short people to climb the same grade

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

Exactly what Simon has said. If you want to learn more about how your own personal metrics influence the data you can complete the MyFingers assessment for free. This video is looking at a more global data set.

I climb around v8/v9 with a max hang around 71% on almost any given day. You DONT need finger strength (even though it’s vital for comfort-ability) except actual body strength and technique that puts your body in the best position to use holds.

Indoor climber: Interesting that I climb v4 and 1 session v5 and can hang 129% , buddy is v7 and is 149% Sports we (controlled) onsight f6c and f7a+ respectively on a rope. Pretty much fitting in with those numbers. Now I have some training targets 😂

I can barely hang for 7 seconds without added weight and climb v7 y’all need to start doing v26

I haven't been climbing long enough (7 months so far) for these things to be accurate measures for me, but I do find it curious. I am a V5 climber so far (indoor experience only so far, gonna change that this coming year) and can do 17 body weight pull ups and I haven't measured hanging ability. I know I can hang comfortably on a 20mm edge with body weight but I've never added weight and haven't really done any finger training yet because I was cautioned not to worry about it until I've been climbing for at least a year or so.

I did the lattice finger test and scored outside the standard deviation for both my route and bouldering grade. I've climbed v8/5.13b and can only hang 129%. Finger strength isn't everything.

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

Nice! Yeah exactly Max, lots of ways to climb hard 😊. The test is not there to say you can't climb hard, its just there to say 'if you want to climb even harder, this might be a good thing to focus on'.

I am at 170% and close to first V11 so this is dead on.

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

Nice work Alex, got get it 💪💪

@alexbarcovsky4319

Жыл бұрын

@@LatticeTraining Currently at 0% tho cos I managed to overuse my A2 in the process 👌😂

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

@@alexbarcovsky4319 We've been there but don't worry, you'll get back. Wishing you a speedy recovery!

@alexbarcovsky4319

Жыл бұрын

@@LatticeTraining cheers

I can pull 145% in a half crimp and 158% in a drag and yet I've never climbed v7. time to work on technique haha.

Is it hanging 5 sec on 20mm ?

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

7 seconds :)

I can hang for 177% on a 20mm edge for 10 seconds but I can only climb v8?

Knocking on V5 and my 20mm hang time is 0 seconds even with bands 😅

How do your population pyramid look, grade wise? I would assume that your data is particularly skewed when it comes to the lower grades? just because by the ones climbing for less than a year I would assume that a smaller percentage would be interested in your tests, and the ones that are, would most likely be extra focused on gaining strength? Am I wrong?

Most v4 climbers i know would struggle to hold a 20mm

8:02 - would be clearer if the same scale length were used at the bottom, to show just how much bigger the spread appears to be for Male climbers. The low end of the deviation for v11 men was -25% vs the same point for women. I guess it should also be showing the sample size for each group. A greater sample could easily cause a wider spread, otherwise, there’s something interesting going on with those V11 males with lower finger strength…

@Will-kt5jk

Жыл бұрын

In fact, the spread is greater in all the male groups, with the low end of V4 being under 100% body weight. What was the experimental setup for the case with

I'm currently 6 months into climbing. Projecting grade is indoor V4-6. I've never done any finger training so far, and I can barely do crimp pull up. Definitely see a lot of development potential there

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

You're doing very well for 6 months! Great work and keep going 😀

is that half crimp or any type of hanging

Crazy how people underestimate V4 climbers

I climb 7a+/7b and I can barely do 100% body weight 🤣🤣

I never really understood this. I am not sure what V4 stands for exactly, but I have climbed 6b+ at Hangar (Ondra's place)...I assume thats pretty hardcore place, also considering the completely polished holds there compared to my gym for instance. Well..right now I am so weak that I probably could not actually hold my bodyweight at a 20mm edge...I mean, I have a hangboard at home, and my left hand middle finger also have an A2 pulley inflammation since quite some time. I can pretty much sandbag from 6A to 6B boulder, and climb them almost without rest or with 2-3 min rest at the end unsually in a 1 and half hour session twice a week. I cannot even imagine putting on another like 20-40 kg vest or something and hang for 7 sec...it doesnt make sense to me.

@SelcraigClimbs

Жыл бұрын

V4 is 6b-6b+

We know that in quantifiable sports, top men usually outperform top women by ~10%, and there is some data suggesting the difference in amateurs is even greater. It's reasonable to assume that it also applies to climbing (top men do indeed climb a lot harder than top women, but I can't find data on amateurs). So a woman who climbs the same grade as a man is a much better climber, I think that might be one of the reasons why the distribution for women is smaller than for men at the same grade. I am curious to see which percentile each grade is for both genders, of the data is available.

Bro what I climb v6/7 and i have barelly v4 finger strength jesus i need to hangboard

Can we get the same but see what the average pinch strength is !

From this and your last video it seems that Women (on average shorter) are using some other ability to get up the wall. Could it be flexibility? Can you measure flexibility next?

How can I be weaker than a V4 boulderer but climb 7a+ on the Moonboard (2017)?!

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

Good technique? Upper body strength? Flexibility? Perseverance? Good at pinches/drag? A lot of ways to compensate for having one measure a bit lower which is why climbing is so cool IMO.

@climbto

Жыл бұрын

May also be that you are stronger on most holds than you are on the „20-mm-edge“ you tested the max hang at. Or that you tested with half crimp although you are stronger open handed (or the other way round)

@syindrome

Жыл бұрын

Edit: it is actually the 2016 Moonboard I climb on. But yes, I did the max pull-up and finger strength Lattice tests on a lattice rung and my results were: 'you're so weak it's silly'. That was many months ago, during which I went from 6c+ to 7a+ on the Moonboard but my hang numbers didn't really change (sometimes they dropped). I guess this just really highlights that I am lacking in finger strength and maybe should focus on that more...

Guess I can start doing V11s now lol

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

If only it was that simple 😅

Great Video, I do think the numbers are a little low though. Im pulling around 195% and crimp lines on v11s are still veryyyyyy difficult. I also train with a fair amount of other double-digit climbers and most are all pulling over 190% to achieve v10ish

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

We had a similar comment so I'll copy my response because it think it applies here too; "I think this depends on the climbing areas and training culture. This data is spread mainly across Europe and the US (but includes more locations) and I think if we isolated the data to the UK it might be higher (we typically value finger strength a lot in the UK), whereas a local sandstone climbing area with lots of slopers might be much less." Also, don't forget 195% is within 1SD of our mean, so we have tested lots of climbers at or above your level of strength for the grade of V11. We've just also tested a lot of climbers at V11 that have done so with a lot less finger strength. All this means is that we'd say finger strength (on a large edge) is unlikely to be a limiting factor of performance (depending on climbing style).

So I just have terrible technique. I can hang 200% but struggle on my 7c

While I was watching this I was thinking "everyone is guessing way too high except the last couple". Boy was I wrong! Looks like I need to work on my finger strength!!

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

Haha! Well you are obviously climbing well and that's what matters! But if you are motivated to train hopefully this was illuminating.

@CJski

Жыл бұрын

@@LatticeTraining Do you guys do in-person assessments? I'll be traveling to the UK in a couple months. If so, who can I talk to?

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

@@CJski We stopped doing in-person assessments during at the beginning of 2020 (pandemic) and haven't really started them since. We offer a full remote assessment which is quite in-depth and then skype/zoom consultations if you want a coach to run through the data with you. This is kind of the best option we have at the moment if you want a bit more from a climbing assessment.

@CJski

Жыл бұрын

@@LatticeTraining still? That was three years ago. That’s unfortunate.

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

@@CJski Yeah, I guess there just wasn't enough demand to start them up again. People seem satisfied with remote assessments for the most part. We do digital assessments in-person but it's not commercially set up yet. We just run these with our sponsored or pro athletes at the moment. If we can get the time and resources we'd love to make this an open thing but we're not there yet.

Best I dust off my quad block!

V5 male climber managing 130%, checks out!

I can climb V10/11 and I tested myself last week and got a 179% So I'm gonna guess v4: 130%, v7: 150% v11: 175%

They’re guessing so low i would think a lot higher 5:24

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

Yeah most people guessed lower. Interestingly I think some of the people we asked would have tested way higher than their own predictions.

Pinch Strength?

I have to say that I must have really bad technique cause ive been climbing for 8 1/2 months and hang 185% bodyweight for seven second on 20 mil

i feel like explosive strength is the most important for climbing

I'm surprised be the gap between male and female climbing in term of finger strength. We could reduce this as a culture situation, were male tend to focus more on strength and female on technics. But I thinks its an oversimplification. I would be curious too have data on the relation between finger strength and height, and between strength and weight. Because female, most of the time, are lighter and smaller. I question myself what are the lever principle and how bigger hand means you increase the torque on your finger ? How smaller bodies (smaller waist, narrow shoulder) may affect how close your body can get to a wall and transpose weight from the finger to the leg? After the point that being lighter is almost always an advantage in climbing, except for sloper. I do believe taller people have an easier time with their back muscle, because the can engage them without being fully extended and they often have a body frame than can pack more back muscle. But everything that is fingers strength and smaller hold are the realm meant for smaller persons xD

I think v11 is much higher. my max is v11 and I can hang like 225%, and all the other v11 climbers I know can at least do 180%, most of which can do over 200%

@alexbarcovsky4319

Жыл бұрын

V11 170% here. 225% is in the V15-16 range. In fact I think a good portion of V16 boulderers cant hang 225%.

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

I think this depends on the climbing areas and training culture. This data is spread mainly across Europe and the US (but includes more locations) and I think if we isolated the data to the UK it might be higher (we typically value finger strength a lot in the UK), whereas a local sandstone climbing area with lots of slopers might be much less. Just from experience, 225% is very high! I think you'd give Will Bosi and Aidan Roberts a run for their money

@SelcraigClimbs

Жыл бұрын

@@LatticeTraining interesting point about local geography affecting the culturally differential approach to value judgements in terms of training and strength in climbing

I do 168% and only climb v8 my technique must be bad

Every male just added 70% extra and started questing for v11 🎉🎉😂

Everytime I see female crushers they look incredibly strong on small crimps. The data shows ladies are weaker on 20mm for the grade. I wonder if it is the same on smaller edges. Maybe male athletes are stronger on 20mm because it is full finger pad but when it comes to smaller edges, are female as strong as male with 12mm being still a full finger pad for women? Having hips closer to wall allows better body positioning to unload hands to point where women can hold those razor thin crimps.

I am proud to tell you random people on the internet, that i hang around 458% BW on a 18mm edge.

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

Get this person a medal!

so youre telling my finger strength isnt why I'm only a v6 climber and that it's probably because I need better technique???? how dare you LMAO

That brings no insights at all. It would make sense to have climbers whose limit is V4/V7 or V11 test how much weight they can hang the 7 seconds with compared to their body weight.

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

I don't understand? What you are describing is what we did when we collected the data... All our data is from real climbers doing the test you are describing. It's compared against grade and relative to bodyweight.

Hm I'm not understanding - %BW added for hanging on what edge?

@lamajcx

Жыл бұрын

0:17 20mm edge

@offline588

Жыл бұрын

5 seconds? Or just being able to establish?

@Jojo-_

Жыл бұрын

@@offline588 0:17 7 seconds

If you don’t distinguish between indoor vs outdoor climbing your results are flawed.

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

I guess. But we could say the same about not distinguishing between hard slabs to hard overhangs. I'd argue that would show even more disparity. If this is flawed then I guess we agree, but knowing this going into any assessment means we don't make any assumptions. Even though we have a mean/average value, its never a target, just one piece of information. There are many flaws in data collection but we think the information gained still outweighs these flaws.

"woman" is a gender, something socially defined. "female" refers to sex, which is what is actually biologically relevant to studies like this. the language being used is important!

@LatticeTraining

Жыл бұрын

Yes correct and we agree that language is important, however this is not a study. When we collect data for assessments we ask the person completing the test to define their gender and allocate which gender they would like their data compared to. This is so that all individuals can be part of the data set they identify with.