As someone who respects Dr Craig’s apologetic ministry and material, and who has much benefited from the same, I do think Dr White makes some very good points here in his critique.

@christopherflux6254

2 жыл бұрын

Yes. I tend to be more in line with Craig than White on issues, but Craig’s explanation on this particular subject is inadequate and a little disappointing. Perfect understanding of the Trinity is not essential for salvation. But I don’t think you can wilfully and consciously reject the Trinity and be saved.

@wojak91

2 жыл бұрын

@@christopherflux6254 How do you feel a bout Craig denying original sin and death as a result of the curse?

@selvinaguilar7767

8 ай бұрын

Same here.

@boosminogstatus6460

4 ай бұрын

@@wojak91 disappointing, can lead to poor theology hopefully inconsistent so it doesn’t bring major problems regarding salvation

@Real_LiamOBryan

2 ай бұрын

@@christopherflux6254 That's the thing. Craig didn't say that you "can willfully and consciously reject the Trinity and be saved". He's thinking about people that don't know about the Trinity and whether they can be saved, or at least people who don't understand it well enough and think that it's either non-biblical or illogical. Do you really believe that our perfectly just God would say to those people, "Oh, well! You tried your best with what knowledge you were given, but to Hell with you."? No. Our God judges the heart, and does so perfectly.

Craig was right. When Peter preached to the house of Cornelius what was the message? [See Acts10:38-43]. They believed that simple message and were saved. People were being saved for over 300 years before men hatched their trinity doctrine.We don't need to place extra burdens such as belief in trinitarianism on people in order to have them saved. Hear what Jesus himself said "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee [the Father] the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. " [John17:3]. This is what Jesus requires of true believers and not convoluted doctrines which the proponents themselves don't understand.

This was an excellent video James. Clear, biblical and sensible.

this was awesome. great explanation.

I’m confused. Around the 12:00 minute mark Dr. White begins to explain we must have some understanding of saving grace. Wouldn’t that indicate that we are responsible in some way for our own salvation? Or does it mean the Holy Spirit imparts this knowledge almost instinctually. If the standard brother white presents is true I would find it very hard for those who are unborn and those with mental handicaps to ever come to the comprehension of Jesus Christ and His Gospel. Can someone expound on this a little further. Maybe I’m missing the point. Dr.White, Thank you for your content and your defense of the faith brother.

@briansnow8980

2 жыл бұрын

I think he means that God works within us through our reason/mind

So this boils down to Dr White wishes Dr Craig elaborated more on a simple sound bite interview. Then he proceeds to explain how much better he is at explaining the trinity than Dr Craig. If only Dr Craig could be more like me and expound further on these subjects like I always have done. See I even made a 25 min video responding to the fact that Dr Craig is not as good as me at explaining the Trinity.

@mattashley7796

2 жыл бұрын

That's what White does most of the time. If something isn't defined in his preferred language it's ignorant, incomplete, unBiblical, or God forbid... Maybe even Catholic....

@ramonnevarez5735

2 жыл бұрын

Nope. This is complete ignorance of not understanding the point of the video. White does an excellent on tackling the question. He is just correcting Dr. Craig.... this requires time to do....

9:00 best explains it.

Dr. Craig is making mistaken here. The issue is not whether UNDERSTANDING the doctrine of the Trinity is essential to salvation, but whether the doctrine of the Trinity itself plays an essential role in salvation. If the doctrine doesn't, then it will affect Christ's divinity and the legal power of his atonement. If that is that case, how could Dr. Craig remedy the issue? I agree 100% with Dr. White's disciplined analysis of and response to Dr. Craig's proposition(s) on this matter.

@jaspin555

4 ай бұрын

Do you think the early church taught the trinity? Say, nearly anyone before 300ad?

@Real_LiamOBryan

2 ай бұрын

@@jaspin555 Yes. Absolutely. Have you read the Early Church Fathers? There is an explicit usage of the term Trinity in the 180s, and clearly trinitarian teachings (i.e., one being, three persons) much earlier than that. The Epistle of Barnabas (A.D. 74), Ignatius' To the Magnesians (A.D. 110), and Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho (A.D. 155) are particularly Trinitarian in language and eminently early. Theophilus of Antioch (A.D. 115 - A.D. 183) is the first to mention the word "Trinity", but Irenaeus (A.D. 189) taught the idea around the same time, Mathetes (A.D. 160) also around the same time, Justyn Martyr around the same time (A.D. 155), Ignatius of Antioch even earlier (A.D. 110, a disciple of John), and the Letter of Barnabas (A.D. 74), written around the time the Gospels and the Letters of Paul were written, taught this as well, not to mention that the New Testament clearly teaches it. Here are their words: "And further, my brethren: if the Lord endured to suffer for our soul, He being Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, "Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness," [Genesis 1:26] understand how it was that He endured to suffer at the hand of men." -- Barnabas, The Epistle of Barnabas, Chapter 5, The new covenant, founded on the sufferings of Christ, tends to our salvation, but to the Jews' destruction (A.D. 74). "Jesus Christ ... was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed ... Jesus Christ ... came forth from one Father and is with and has gone to one Father ... [T]here is one God, who has manifested himself by Jesus Christ his Son, who is his eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence, and who in all things pleased him that sent him" -- Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Magnesians 6-8 (c. A.D. 110). "And the same sentiment was expressed, my friends, by the word of God written by Moses, when it indicated to us, with regard to Him whom it has pointed out, that God speaks in the creation of man with the very same design, in the following words: ‘Let us make man after our image and likeness.’ ... I shall quote again the words narrated by Moses himself, from which we can indisputably learn that God conversed with someone numerically distinct from himself and also a rational being ... But this offspring who was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him" -- Justyn Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 62, The words "Let Us make man" agree with the testimony of Proverbs (A.D. 155). "The Father sent the Word that He might be manifested to the world ... This is He who was from the beginning, who appeared as if new, and was found old ... This is He who, being from everlasting, is today called the Son" -- Mathetes, Letter to Diognetus, Chapter 11, These Things Are Worthy To Be Known And Believed (A.D. 160). "In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His wisdom. And the fourth is the type of man, who needs light, that so there may be God, the Word, wisdom, man. Wherefore also on the fourth day the lights were made." -- Theophilus of Antioch, Letter to Autolycus, Book II, Chapter 15, Of the Fourth Day (c. A.D. 180). "It was not angels, therefore, who made us nor who formed us, neither had angels power to make an image of God, nor anyone else ... For God did not stand in need of these in order to accomplish what He had himself determined with himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess his own hands. For with him, the Father, were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also he speaks, saying, ‘Let us make man in our image and likeness’ [Gen. 1:26]" -- Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, Book IV, Chapter 20, Section 1 (A.D. 189).

So, who coined the word trinitas or trinity and who formulated the doctrine of the trinity? Is Jesus the mystery and revelation and glory of God the Father or is it the trinity?

Most Christians believe the doctrine of the Trinity to be biblical, and they cite Matthew 28:18-20 or 1 John 5:7. But is the following the original quote of Christ? “And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” These verses are the modern-day rendition identifying an interpolation, so the question must be asked, “Did Christ speak every word found in these verses?” The first Church Historian Eusebius (quotes Matthew 28:19 as it appeared in the early 4th century, Christ said, “Go and make disciples of all nations in My name” (Matthew 28:19, as it was originally quoted, Eusebius, The History of the Church, p. 68, Penguin Classics, 1965). Note, He never said, “...baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.” Which commandment did the disciples hear? It appears the latter quoted by Eusebius from an original manuscript of the NT, for there is no instance of the disciples ever baptizing anyone “In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,” according to the New Testament! On baptisms specifically were done in the name of {YAHSHUA}, Martin Luther notes, “The apostles certainly used this formula in baptizing in the name of Christ only, as we read in the Acts of the Apostles,’ citing Acts 2:38; 10:48; and 19:5” (Erik H. Herrmann, Paul W. Robinson, The Annotated Luther, Volume 3: Church and Sacraments. Fortress Press. p. 66, 2016). In a documented sermon, Martin Luther made this astonishing statement, “It is indeed true that the name ‘Trinity’ is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man” (The Sermons of Martin Luther, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406). The disciples of Christ in the first two or more centuries did not know of any doctrine of the Trinity. Historically, “There is no evidence that the apostles of Jesus ever heard of the trinity-at any rate from him” (H. G. Wells, The Outline of History, Vol. 2, p. 499, 1920). Therefore, without a doubt, The so-called Great Commission, as written is an interpolation: "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19, the words “...in the name of the Father and of the Son, and the Holy Ghost” were added centuries later). The disciples were to make disciples in His name, and they were baptized in the name of Christ only as the NT gives evidence. The formula is mentioned in the Didache (7:1-3), and it is mostly accepted as authentic due to its supporting manuscript evidence (Everett Ferguson, Baptism in the Early Church, 2013, pp. 134-5). Nevertheless, some scholars have held the view that the passage in the Didache is an interpolation as it is absent from the first few centuries of early Christian quotations, in which case it is believed it would be part of an apostolic or early Christian oral tradition from which both the received texts of Matthew and the Didache emerged, however, the conclusion is the church only baptized in the name of Christ. The view of the passage as an interpolation was in recent times maintained, and this particular line of opposing arguments by Trinitarians is pure eisegesis, meaning the process of interpreting a text in such a way as to introduce one's presuppositions, agendas, or biases, that artificially supports the Trinitarian formula, and based on interpolated verses added to the New Testament. Catholics and Protestants would agree with Protestant Theologian James White, who writes, “We hang a person’s very salvation upon the acceptance of the doctrine…We must know, understand, and love the Trinity to be fully completely Christian” (The Forgotten Trinity, pp. 14-15). And yet most other scholars know that the Trinity is beyond human understanding, “The mind of man cannot fully understand the mystery of the Trinity. He who has tried to understand the mystery fully will lose his mind, but he who would deny the Trinity will lose his soul” (Harold Lindsell and Charles Woodbridge, A Christian Handbook, pp. 51-52, 1953). Nowhere in the New Testament is believing in the Trinity a prerequisite for one’s salvation. Nowhere in the Bible did the LORD ever reveal Himself as a Trinity, or Triune God. Interpolations exist in the New Testament, which are words added later to prove the Trinity. Matthew 28:19 and 1 John 5:7 are proven interpolations, and therefore not of the original Scriptures. 1 John 5:7 is known as “The Johannine comma,” due to a sequence of extra words in 1 John 5:7-8 which appear in later versions of the Bible, but not in earlier Scriptures. Compare these words below in italics in the KJV and the same verse from the newer ESV. "For there are three that bear record (witness) in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one" (1 John 5:7-8 KJV). "For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree" (1 John 5:7-8, ESV). These extra words are generally absent from the early Greek manuscripts. They only appear in the text in late medieval manuscripts, which were done by Trinitarians to bolster the man-made doctrine of the Trinity. The Trinitarian doctrine only existed since the 4th century! A religion unexamined is not worth having.

Trinity may describe Who God is if we believe it.. but it also , importantly, describes How God is. A Being who is eternal is well and good but unless this being is silent and motionless He would have A Word and A Spirit… and being also eternal and uncreated these 3 are YHVH but known amongst other persons and each other as persons…. Persons is how a being is known by another being.. but God being The One Being in Eternity must know Himself therefore more than one persons are required in His eternal Being. If He is eternal and speaks in eternity and moves then He also has eternal Word and Eternal Spirit through and by Whom He spoke all form and motion (Word and spirit) into creation by His Command (Jesus) and the Breath (Spirit). He is YHVH , ever speaking and ever moving …🙌🏼❤️

If you read Psalms 2 How can there be such a thing as a Trinity ?

@justanotherbaptistjew5659

2 жыл бұрын

Because Jesus also was a man. He was truly God and truly Man, for the Word became Flesh and dwelt among us.

@jeremyjohnson4106

2 жыл бұрын

To add to what this brother said, we look at the OT in light of the New. The NT is clear that the Father sent the Son down in flesh. John1:1-18 makes it abundantly clear that the Son was with the Father throughout eternity. Also See 1john1:1-3 for a reference to John1

@ChiliMcFly1

2 жыл бұрын

@@jeremyjohnson4106 Psalms 2 is not about a virgin birth. This could even be about another Messiah. One who was anointed by God when the young man was Twenty. He was probably punished by the same ones who punished 6 million Jews. God is waiting for a deep and sincere apology.

This is something that I thought of, and was curious to get some other perspectives on. I agree with James that the Trinity is foundational, and is fully supported by the Bible, but I had also been thinking about this from another angle. We know based on Scripture that because God is triune, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exist in fellowship with one another. To put it succinctly, they have a relationship. As we are created in God's image, we also have the capacity to form relationships with people and with God. Now, obviously our relationships are not the same as the Trinity, especially considering that while God is one being and three persons, we are only one being and one person. But I have a question then for any other religion and for those who would claim that God is only one being and one person. How do you explain relationships? For example, how could a unitarian god, like Allah, create relational persons? If God is only one person from all eternity, then how would he know what it's like to be in relationship with another person? How would he be able to create another person with whom he would then be able to communicate and have a relationship? If God is unitarian, then he would not be a relational person, which means that he would have had to change when he created another person, because now he would've had to account for this other person. From my understanding, there are only two ways that you can account for the fact that we are able to have relationships with one another: 1) There are many gods that have existed for all eternity and are somehow able to relate to one another, or 2) the Triune God of Scripture. A unitarian god would not be able to create other persons and relate to them, because he/she/it would have no concept of what a relationship is. We can obviously reject the first option, as Scripture very clearly teaches that there is only one God, Yahweh. Now, you might be able to argue for Allah or something in the sense that he could change, but Scripture also clearly teaches that God is immutable (unchanging). So it would not be possible for him to change his nature when creating another person to now be relational. Plus, if to start you have no concept of relationships, then why would you create another person at all? What reason would you have? You can't do it out of a desire to be in relationship, because again, you wouldn't have any concept of what that is Thoughts anyone?

@AllThat-Is

3 жыл бұрын

the Holy Ghost is the Indwelling Spirit of our Father (Mt 10:20). Jesus (more correctly Christ) is the Father's firstborn (Col 1:15). There is only One God (the Father.) If you truly believe John 1:1 was divinely inspired, and not a narrative devised by a clever Gentile, that is not backed up by any of the other three gospels, then at best, there is only a Binity (i.e.two persons/personas/aspects in one substance/divinity/God) as opposed to the Trinity of most branches of Christianity. Oneness does not preclude relationships. It is a mystery that we are all parts of One Whole whose purpose is to know Itself through its infinite relationships.

@corbinyoung925

3 жыл бұрын

@@AllThat-Is I'm a bit confused what you're arguing for. Do you believe that God is only 1 person (the Father) and that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are not distinct persons of the Godhead? Or do you believe in the Trinity as laid out in Scripture that God is one being (Yahweh) and 3 persons (Father, Son, Spirit)?

@AllThat-Is

3 жыл бұрын

@@corbinyoung925 We have to face the fact that scripture is manmade, (decreed to be the word of God by men) even as men *sensed* that Paul's letters were inspired by Christ or His Father's Spirit. The older the "scripture," the greater the possibility the material would have been altered by fallible custodians whom it passed through. However if we are to trust what is *laid out in scripture,* I am only proferring that our Father is the Ultimate Being out of whom Christ created us via His Father's Spirit. "You were patient with them for many years, and *Your Spirit* warned them through Your prophets, but they would not listen. Therefore, You handed them over to the surrounding peoples."--Nehemiah 9:30; "God (our Father,) create a clean heart for me and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not banish me from Your presence or take *Your Holy Spirit* from me."--Psalm 51:10-11. Three gods/persons in One Being, or even two gods/persons in One Being is a logical fallacy (why not four or five, or any other number.) There can only be One Ultimate Being and an infinity of gods/angels/creatures. "what is man that You remember him, the son of man that You look after him? You made him little less than God (angels or heavenly beings) and crowned him with glory and honor."-Psalm 8:4-5; "I said, “You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High. However, you will die like men and fall like any other ruler.”-Psalm 82:6-7 It is illogical to place a Father and Son on the same level, the very reason why "Christ Jesus is the One who died, but even more, has been raised; He also is *at the right hand of God and intercedes for us."*--Romans 8:34b *Right hand of & intercedes* indicates subservience. "If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, because *the Father is greater than I."*--John 14:28b; Remember we are answerable to God, God's Holy Spirit and Christ and *responsible for GOD's chosen people (the Jews)* for the deviant doctrines we have constructed. If Paul did not teach it, discard it. "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. And men will rise up from your own number with *deviant doctrines* to lure the disciples into following them. Therefore be on the alert, *remembering that night and day for three years I did not stop warning each one of you with tears."*--Acts 20;29-31

@corbinyoung925

3 жыл бұрын

@@AllThat-Is So, just so we're clear, while the Bible was physically written by humans, the Bible makes it clear that everything in Scripture was inspired by God. They refer to each other's works as Scripture. The early church, based off the OT Scriptures, assumed their writings to be Scripture. Peter said in 2 Peter 1:21, "For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." The Trinity is not a logical fallacy. It is always assumed to be one by people who don't recognize the distinctions that are being made. Person and being are not the same thing. Rocks, cats, dogs, cars, etc. These things all have being, but none of them are persons. You and I are each 1 being and 1 person. God is 1 being and 3 persons. Obviously, because we are finite, we cannot understand that, but that doesn't make it a logical fallacy or a contradiction. If you still think it does, then please explain. Also, you asked why there weren't four or five persons if there could be two or three. The answer is because that's what Scripture reveals to us. Scripture references the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as God, and no one else. The doctrine of the Trinity is not a man-made doctrine. It is the understanding of the way that God has revealed Himself in Scripture. The Trinity is the logical conclusion of statements made throughout Scripture: First, the Bible makes it very clear that there is one God. I don't think any Christian disputes that. "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" - Deut. 6:4 Second, the Bible recognizes 3 different persons as God: The Father - Matt. 6:26-32, John 17:3, 1 Cor. 8:6, 1 Pet. 1:3 The Son - John 20:28, Acts 20:28, John 1:1, 14 The Spirit - Acts 5:3-4, 1 Cor. 3:16, 6:19, 2 Cor. 3:17-18 Thirdly, the Bible clearly distinguishes between these persons The Son is not the Father - John 1:1-2, 17:24, 1 John 2:1 The Father is not the Spirit - John 14:26, Rom. 8:26 The Son is not the Spirit - John 15:26 So there are 3 people identified as God (Father, Son, Spirit), these people are distinct from one another, and yet there is only one God. Conclusion: God is 1 in being and 3 in person. As for your comment about Jesus not being equal to God, just because someone willfully submits to someone else, that does not mean that they are not equal with them. Men and women are equal in the eyes of God, but in Ephesians 5, Paul commands wives to submit to their husbands. Is Paul saying that they're unequal? No. He's saying that the way God has set up marriage, the husband is the head of the home. Therefore, the wife is to submit to him. But this does not change the fact that she is still equal with him in the eyes of God. Yes, Jesus submits Himself to the Father. He does the will of His Father. But we have to be careful here. Father and Son are the terms that Scripture uses to refer to them, but they are not literally father and son. Jesus was not conceived, He was not created, He did not come into existence. The Son is the role He takes in the redemption of His people. You mentioned Him being referred to as the "firstborn of all creation" in Colossians 1. That is not saying that Jesus was literally the first person born in all creation. The firstborn Son is a concept that God established in Jewish culture. The eldest son of a family would receive a much larger portion of the inheritance than the other sons, so that what belonged to the family stayed in the family and didn't fracture into tiny pieces. Jesus being the firstborn means that He is the one to receive the inheritance. As He is our elder brother, we are simply benefitting from what He has received. "The Lord said to me, 'You are my Son; today I have begotten you. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.'" - Psalm 2:7-9 "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of His nature, and He upholds the universe by the word of His power. After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name He has inherited is more excellent than theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say, 'You are my Son, today I have begotten you'? ... But of the Son He says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.' And, 'You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.' And to which of the angels has He ever said, 'Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet'?" - Hebrews 1:1-5,8-13

@AllThat-Is

3 жыл бұрын

@@corbinyoung925 I understand where you are coming from. I apologize if I still "don't understand." Jesus and His Disciples, and Paul did not explicitly teach that the Holy Spirit whose gift He received was one of the co-creators of creation along with Christ. The entire OT and NT on the whole conveys that the Spirit of God/the Lord flows from & speaks for God, and is not a separate personality. In the same manner, someone could liken the Word of God as coming from God Himself and is not a separate personality. There you have it. Christ and the Father and His Spirit are One. Jesus' remarks: "the Father is greater than I" and “It is written: *Worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.”* indicates that the Word and God's Spirit are attributes of the Father and not the Father Himself; "because you are not speaking, but the *Spirit of your Father* is speaking through you."--Jesus in Mt 10:20; "Because of this, I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy, but the *blasphemy* against the (Father's) Spirit will not be forgiven."--Jesus in Mt 12:34 If one treats God's Spirit as a separate personality, then whoever blasphemes the Father and Jesus will be forgiven, but not the Holy Spirit. Don't you think something is wrong there?; "The *Spirit of the Lord* (My Father's Spirit) is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor."--Luke 4:18a/Isaiah 61:1-2 Almost everywhere else it is *His Father's Spirit* that is being mentioned. *For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.*--John 3:16 It does not say that "For God and the/His Holy Spirit loved the world in this way: They gave their One and Only Son...It downgrades the Father and Creator of the multiverse to be one of the Trinity, and elevates this elusive personality of the *Holy Spirit* to be on the same level as the Father. "When they came to Mysia, they tried to go into Bithynia, but the *Spirit of Jesus* did not allow them."--Acts 16:7 This Spirit of Jesus is Jesus Himself and not the Spirit of God. See also Phil 1:19; The evil spirit answered them, “I know Jesus, and I recognize Paul-but who are you?”--Acts The evil spirit knew Jesus and Paul, but did not recognize the Spirit of God as a separate personality from God in the spirit realm. "Praise the *God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,* who has blessed us *in Christ* with every spiritual blessing in the heavens."--Ephesians 1:3 (no mention of the Holy Spirit); Paul, Peter and John taught that the Holy Spirit was just God's Spirit, and not a separate personality. And it will be in the last days, says God, that I will *pour out My Spirit* on all humanity"--Acts 2:17a & Joel 2:28a But when the kindness of *God our Savior* (the Father) and His love for mankind appeared"--Titus 3:4, "He (the Father) *poured out this Spirit* (the Holy Spirit) on us abundantly through *Jesus Christ our Savior,*--Titus 3:6 (*This Spirit* in the passage is not accorded the recognition as our Savior, only the Father and Son.)* Other examples are Romans 8:14, 1 Cor 2:14, Acts 15:18,19a, Ephesians 1:17, Phil 3:3, 1 "This is how you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God."--1John 4:6 " Jesus, His disciples and Paul did not call upon the Holy Spirit as people do today. Paul warns with tears through the centuries not to be lured by men "from your own number" into following *deviant doctrines.* (Acts 20:30-31) If it's not clear, stop giving power to that doctrine. It has turned uncountable people away, including God's own chosen people!

Essential? Absolutely! Comprehend It? No. Apprehend it? Yes. Embrace it! Wonderful. Deny it? Doomed 😞

@chapter404th

2 жыл бұрын

Bible verses to support this comment? None!

@lp4544

2 жыл бұрын

@@chapter404th ““Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭NIV‬‬

@lp4544

2 жыл бұрын

Matthew 10:32-33 32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

@chapter404th

2 жыл бұрын

@@lp4544 what does this have to do with the trinity?

@danielespejo375

2 жыл бұрын

@@chapter404th nothing lol

So - in a 2min40 video, Dr. Craig doesn't parse out every aspect of Trinitarian doctrine as completely as Dr. White does in a 25 minute video? I think that's what that comes down to here... The challenge here would be for Dr. White, from a cold start, to have 2min40 seconds to explain the trinity...and see how well he does?

My biggest issues with the Trinity are that to fit this into the bible authority a person has to do a lot of ignoring & misinterpreting of certain scriptures. Firstly no one in the bible was baptised saying Father, Son & Holy Ghost. From Acts onwards, Jesus name is always used. Also the scripture that says there are 3 that bear witness in heaven was never in the original verse, but was added by some scribe. Lastly the verse in Gen saying let Us make man in Our image is specifying the royal We as in a King and His advisors not a plurality of Gods. We are specifically told to do all in word and deed in Jesus name. Jesus name is also the name satan wants to stop us from using.

"It's not necessary for salvation," but essential in the faith.

My question here, is do we really need to believe in the trinity in order to be saved?

@H1N1777

2 жыл бұрын

Yes

@nomadicrecovery1586

2 жыл бұрын

No Christ never said anything like that It’s a Church doctrine. A Catholic Church doctrine I’d mention It may be true Jesus or Paul. Never said you must understand the nature of God perfectly to be saved

@joeffreysarita1431

2 жыл бұрын

@@H1N1777 Then we should start preaching trinity too and try to convince people that they should believe and have faith in this doctrine for them to be save

@H1N1777

2 жыл бұрын

@@joeffreysarita1431 Faithful preachers and churches DO preach the trinity. As James White says in the video, it's important to differentiate between someone who does not fully understand the doctrine and is ignorant, and the person who knows and rejects it. To reject the trinity is to reject God. God has revealed Himself as One God in three Persons.

@joeffreysarita1431

2 жыл бұрын

@@H1N1777 Yes that's a good point. but what I am thinking about is, what if you were preaching to a dying unbelieving person, is it really necessary to tell the man to believe in the trinity too, aside from believing in Jesus so that his salvation will be sure? Please enlighten me.

MUCH respect to Dr White + Dr Craig ....

I think Craig is saying what Luke 12 says, that people will be judged on the info they have. A practicing Jehovah's Witness for example is very different than someone born in the mountains of Afghanistan as far as access to the knowledge of God. That's not to say there are multiple ways to God. Jesus is the only way, and God goes out of his way to make sure that all men are without excuse(Romans 1). But like Craig said, it's debatable how much info Abraham or Moses knew about the nature of God.

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." 1 Cor 2 : 2 "Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him." John 9 : 35-38 The human being Jesus is the Son of God and he is the Son of God we should be putting our faith in and calling on...

Everyone just googled perichoresis.

Joh 20:17 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" -Christ

@justanotherbaptistjew5659

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, Jesus also has a human nature. Big surprise.

@Fassnight

5 ай бұрын

Oh no, 2000 years of Church doctrine destroyed by one verse. How has no one ever noticed that before... haha but for real, Jesus was God AND Man. How could He be a sinless man if He didn't recognize there is a Father who is God in heaven?

@mcb5602

5 ай бұрын

@@Fassnight The Messiah was in the form of a god before he was incarnated into his human body.

@knightdance8377

26 күн бұрын

God is the God of all flesh and from the moment Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, his Father became God over Him An Old Testament prophecy , here God speaks of Jesus -- Psalm 45:6-7 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. 7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.

John 17:3-5 explains what "Eternal Life" is... ‭John 17:3-5 KJV‬ [3] And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. [4] I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. [5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. Furthermore do we take the Apostle Paul at his word? ‭1 Corinthians 15:45-47 KJV‬ [45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. [46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. In John 20:21-22 did Jesus breathe "another person" on His Disciples in the Upper Room or did He breathe His OWN Holy Spirit on His Disciples?

I think Craig's commentary was less muddled than James'. Craig was pretty clear what he meant by "essential." He qualified it by saying, "essential for salvation." In other words, it is not necessary to believe it in order to be saved. He wasn't talking about whether it was essential for the truth of Christianity. James, on the other hand, makes a muddled distinction between not having full knowledge of the Trinity and outright rejecting the Trinity. But this is very murky because there's a wide range of understanding involved. Consider the average Jehovah's Witness who rejects the Trinity. If you ask them to define it, 99% of them will not be able to give a clear definition, and most of them will outright misunderstand it. Does that mean they can be excused for rejecting it?

Glory to Triune God.

As someone who has spent his life studying the trinitarian (latin and social) framework against other views of the Godhead that thinks that Jesus is God but there is LESS of a distinction between the other "two", for example modalism, I personally find social and perhaps latin models lacking when compared to other views. Jesus is called the holy spirit twice in the conception narrative, he says about the spirit, "the world cannot see him...but YOU know him, for he lives with you now and later will be in you. I will not abandon you as orphans, I will come to you," he says to see him is to see the father, and is said to be the image of the invisible God, scripture says there is one God ,the father, and one lord, Jesus. It does NOT say one God, the father, son and holy spirit. There IS no "god the son" or "god the spirit". Jesus said to baptize in the name of father, son, and spirit, but not ONCE do you see them NOT baptize in the name of Jesus. So I think to believe that Jesus is the father's holy spirit incarnate, and you can think there are some distinctions between the two, but that ULTIMATELY, they are more one than a social model, I think you are WELL within your rights to consider yourself saved, and anyone who equates the trinity with the gospel is simply mistaken, to put it kindly. I can be WRONG, but that doesn't mean I'm CONDEMNED. And I don't personally think I'm wrong. The scriptures say more than they're one in being, but that If there is one God who is the father, and Jesus is God, then he is either somehow ALSO the father, or not God at all. I believe the former. Isaiah 9:6 he will be called wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting father, prince of peace.

I would like one question answered. I definitely believe in the Triune nature of our Lord, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. What I want to know is this. If you were in the presence of the Trinity, how many Beings would you see? One, or three?

@sheepdogapologetics3267

2 жыл бұрын

Three persons, ONE in being. Co-eternal, Co-divine, Co-Almighty. Not three GODs, ONE GOD.

@barryclevenger7456

2 жыл бұрын

@@sheepdogapologetics3267 So I would see One Being? And, I am being serious.

@sheepdogapologetics3267

2 жыл бұрын

@@barryclevenger7456 no worries :) the doctrine of the Trinity is challenging to grasp and fathom in our humanly/finite minds. We will see three persons. But thes three persons are not "Three Gods". They exist in perfect harmony in the God-Head, as GOD.

@barryclevenger7456

2 жыл бұрын

@@sheepdogapologetics3267 Then what of the verse in Colossians 2:9, in Him dwells the fullness of the Godhead fully? I am not trying to be facetious or mocking. As I said, I definitely believe in the Trinity. And, if Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father, does the Holy Spirit have a place on the throne?

@sheepdogapologetics3267

2 жыл бұрын

@@barryclevenger7456 hello. The context of Colossians 2:9 is to prove through scripture that Jesus is indeed GOD in the flesh as the church of Collosi was not fully understanding the deity of Christ and the purpose of His sacrifice. Scripture does not explicitly say (in my small knowledge of it, I am still a student of God's word and forever will be by His grace) about the Holy Spirit's throne, but indeed the Holy Spirit is a separate person in the Godhead that is stated in scripture many times, even starting from the 2nd verse of Genesis 1 and have been heavily involved in GOD's creation and redemption. No need to apologize, i know you have good intentions of asking. And may the knowledge and wisdom of GOD always increase upon you and I as we travel along :)

I know I am taking a risk by asking a youtube comment section, but serious question: What if someone believes that Jesus is fully human and fully divine (agreeing on his two natures) but they reject the Trinity by aligning to the oneness Pentecostal position (that Jesus= the Father= the Holy Spirit). Is that person condemned?

@wjdyr6261

5 ай бұрын

No. The doctrine of one God is the oldest doctrine known to man. It's as old as God himself. The trinity is pagan and man-made doctrine

@boosminogstatus6460

4 ай бұрын

@@wjdyr6261 trinity is one God

@wjdyr6261

4 ай бұрын

@boosminogstatus6460 so who coined the word trinitas or trinity and who formulated the doctrine of the trinity? Is the Father alone, the one and only true God, or is there another?

@DB-ug3nf

4 ай бұрын

@@wjdyr6261 That's a word-concept fallacy. Do you know what other words or phrases aren't mentioned in the Bible? Omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, the word 'Bible', hypostatic union, etc. These concepts are in scripture despite it not explicitly stating these principles verbatim.

@wjdyr6261

4 ай бұрын

@DB-ug3nf some of those words are clearly demonstrated in scripture. Not the trinity. Who coined the word trinitas or trinity and who formulated the doctrine of the trinity? Omnipotent is clearly spoken of. Omnipresent is clearly spoken of. Omniscient also. The word Bible simply means book 📖 which is in the book or bible.

I'm on White's side, but both of these guys are great dudes.

Yo that thumbnail tho lol

The problem with the trjnity is not essential theory is that Moses and Abraham both worshipped Jesus which would make them a form of Trinitarian as they didn't quite know the Holy Spirit yet. I love Craig but his response baffles me

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” - John 8:24 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully. - 2 Corinthians 11:4

@tomidomusic

4 жыл бұрын

Seems to be the same "Egō eimi" that is in John 4:26; doesn't it? see biblehub.com/text/john/4-26.htm And we have John 7:38 He who believes in me, as the *scripture* has said....... Did Moses, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob know of the trinity doctrine? See Deut. 13: 1-5 (this is an explicit warning)? Just asking. Shema

So does James actually disagree with Craig?! It seems like James is just unsatisfied with Craig's response. So what's the point of the video?

@russ_6214

2 жыл бұрын

I am grateful for James White’s ministry and contributions to theology. However, like many great Christians before him who have done much for the kingdom, he is obviously imperfect and has issues and blind spots. His constant and pointless attacks on other gifted Christians he doesn’t like (who are almost always those who disagree with him on some point of reformed theology) who are likewise obvious faithful Christians and who have likewise dedicated their life to serving Christ is very clearly Jame’s blind spot/fault. I only wish he would listen to literally hundreds of people who love James when they point this out to him. Alas, this is why you should never idolize one teacher or another (be it Dr. White or Dr. Craig), a point both of them would happily acknowledge.

@TheGreaser9273

Жыл бұрын

@@ApollosHagman_17 I don't know if you realize it but having perfect doctrine isn't what saves you, Moreover, having no false beliefs isn't necessary for salvation.

@Fassnight

5 ай бұрын

The point of the video is to fill in the gaps he saw in the clip of Craig. Craig isn't wrong, but his answer left too much on the table

@TheGreaser9273

5 ай бұрын

See, that's the problem. It's an interview, not a lecture or class, so White is just pointing out what couldn't have been put into the interview because it's an interview. So what's the point of White's commentary? It's seems uncharitable of him to 'call' Craig out for being incomplete when he agrees with him. @@Fassnight

I agree James. We don’t need a perfect knowledge of the Trinity to be saved, but I don’t think someone can consciously & wilfully reject the Trinity and be saved.

@joeffreysarita1431

2 жыл бұрын

So that means we need to preach about trinity and encourage people to just accept and believe it, even though they don't get it - for them to have sure salvation?

@michelhaineault6654

2 жыл бұрын

this is nonsense only Jesus save in fact if you worship a triune god you worship a pagan god. God never been three but always been one.Who worship a triune god in scripture????

@michelhaineault6654

2 жыл бұрын

@TheGodlyAnatoly Yes He was always ONE and never many and ONLY HIMS IS THE SAVIOR : Isai43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. So Jesus being the Savior is Yahweh in bodily form and nobody else.

@christopherflux6254

2 жыл бұрын

@@joeffreysarita1431 No. But we need to preach that Jesus is God and that the work of the Holy Spirit is Gods work.

@mattm7798

10 ай бұрын

Agreed.

Phil Johnson's muddled tweet was about the Those who never heard video.

It is necessary to understand that Jesus is divine. Furthermore, Jesus' reference to the Holy Spirit illuminates the work of the Holy Spirit as the vicar of Christ in the hearts of mankind on earth. The way in which the scriptures treat the activity of the Holy makes it hard to argue against the Spirit being coequal with Christ Himself. There is then three distinct personalities working within a uniquely driven framework. Do we fully understand that framework? Of course we don't. And something this profound and abstract is bound to offer up different and legitimate conceptual understandings. So what? I personally prefer the concept of three persons all sharing one essence but there might better more precise models out there of which I am unaware. Again, whats the problem? Didn't the apostle Paul warn against needless disputations. I also recall Jesus Himself praying for the unity of the church His body.

You clearly did not get it. He deserves criticism for his last book for sure. But this is nit picky

Eternal YHVH speaks YHVH about YHVH eternally

@jaspin555

4 ай бұрын

What? Lol

modalism also believes deity of christ??

@christianstewart1795

3 жыл бұрын

In a sense, but not the Trinitarian sense. They believe the Father is The Son is The Holy Spirirt. All God but no differentiation between persons which is incorrect and denial of orthodox Christian faith.

@samuellundin5328

Жыл бұрын

What is orthodox to you. The modalist were the majority in the second century says Tertullian.

the trinity is a false God and a false gospel who say:: If your do not believe in the trinity of three different persons you are condemned???? But the Scripture and NOT the WICKED MEN say: If you do not believe in Jesus you are condemned!!! Do you see HOW THEY TWIST THE SALVATION ???

Numbers23:19KJV"God is not a man,that he should lie;neither the son of man that he should repent.." The Lord JEHOVAH is immutable. Thus if ones God is now or was ever a man. He is not the Lord JEHOVAH.

@kelvyquayo

2 жыл бұрын

Exodus 15:3. YHVH is a man of war. YHVH is His Name.

@aservantofJEHOVAH7849

2 жыл бұрын

Deuteronomy4:24ASV"24For Jehovah thy God is a DEVOURING FIRE a jealous God." Psalms63:7ASV" thou hast been my help, And in the shadow of thy WINGS will I rejoice." Psalms144:2ASV"My lovingkindness, and my FORTRESS, My HIGH TOWER and my deliverer; My SHIELD and he in whom I take refuge; Who subdueth my people under me."

No where NO WHERE. In the Bible or out of christs mouth is believing in the Later developed trinity doctrine essential to be saved. No where I don’t know if I agree to it. I e looked at it over and over Not sure And it’s NOT revelation if God. It’s a hater de idiom in trying to understand it

He knows all that! It's not a talk for every essential detail brother. There are other platforms that Dr. Graig give more details such as his "Defenders" class. Lighten up! It happens to us all when we attempt to explain to someone the Trinity or any other doctrine.

@robertknight3354

Жыл бұрын

When you watch MORE of WLC all you find is that you should have used that time somewhere else.

I will tell you one thing about gen x, y and z that is an improvement upon previous generations. We cannot for the life of us get with WLC. Just awful. Thank God for blessing us with so many men who are stronger, more biblical more masculine more faithful and better suited in the spotlight than this person.

"70-90% of normal church goers would fail the test of explaining the trinity and would test positive for some kind of heresy" -James White People who believe Christ is the Son of God and died for their sins. The trinity is not essential or biblical for that matter. That's why it was "interpreted from the text" 300 years after Christ.

Jesus preached to the poor a simple message of salvation. [John3:16]. Please don't make it complicated with man's philosophy. As Paul said "That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." [1Corinthians2:5]

Marcionism ?

Brother James - I feel you take way too much of a hard line on these issues. God will turn out to be much more merciful and understanding than you imagine Him, just like Jesus was to the religious leaders of his day. I hope it's a pleasant surprise for you.

Around the 19:30 mark, James begins to talk about the Westminster Chatechism. Wait, what? He is riding Wm Ln Craig for his "Molinistic" view of the Triune expression of God; then he inserts the necessity of chatechisms to recognize the true believers. If you make the doctrine of the Trinity the absolute line of demarcation between the elect and unbelievers, you have no Biblical ground to stand upon. When you begin to insert your traditions (LBC and Westminster), you are straying from your own stand on sola scriptura. The reformers began a work that is still in motion today. Martin Luther, after nailing his 95 Theses to the door of the church in Wittenburg, he went right back to his Roman Catholic traditions and Dogmas. He continued to baptize infants.It is obvious in your traditions; which are no different than Presbyterians, Lutherans, Epicopalians and Mainline Calvinists, which still hold to Roman Catholic dogmas. The London Baptist/Westminster Confessions are not scripture! Please stop using them as if they are on an equal, or even a superior plain. The biblical triune expression of God in Scripture shows us that Jesus is the exact representation of God, in human form. 2Cor. 5:19; Col. 2:9 and John 14:6-11 teach us clearly that the HS lived fully in the only begotten son. Jesus is therefore the image (eikon=the exact representation, Col. 1:15) of God. God is a spirit right? (Jn.4:24) He is an incorporeal being that cannot be seen with the natural eye. The Father remedied this by sending his only begotten son, perfectly sinless, and able to to be the perfect presence of the Almighty, in human form. Jesus was, is and will ever be the exact representation of God, in human form! Thomas expressed this truth when he saw his resurrected/glorified form: John 20:28 "My Lord and my God". When someone refers to me as a molinist, I respond by asking if they are Roman Catholic. I never heard of Cardinal Moline until a recent edition of the dividing line. What I believe and understand about our one true God, came from scripture alone. I come to you with an understanding of the simple doctrine of God's triune expression, thru Holy Scripture alone. How is it that you respond with a Roman Catholic understanding? The doctrine of the trinity was not accepted as biblical until the late second century. Instead of confusing Muslims with God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit; tell them the Biblical truth, that God the father, manifested himself through his son, by way of his Omnipresent Spirit. God the Father, thru the Son, by way of the Holy Spirit. One God, manifested in three distinct forms. If asked by a Muslim, who is Jesus? My response is simple: "My Lord and my God! In this dispensation of grace, Jesus is the name above every name (Philip. 2:9-11). Im calling upon Jesus. For the Christian, it should be all about Jesus!

Just getting this straight: 1) The trinity is an "essential," defining element of Christianity (13:17-14:00) 2) Probably "70 to 90%" of "evangelical Christians" don't hold a belief in the trinity (10:12-11:00) 3) Yet, the 70 to 90% are still "Christians"? (20:38) One of these does not belong.

@danielomitted1867

3 жыл бұрын

No you got it wrong. He didnt say they didnt hold to the belief, hes claiming they arent equiped to define it. Sadly thats the case. Not a lot of trinitarians have spent a lot of time thinking about what exactly that means. Doesnt mean theyre not Christian, it means theyre ignorant.

So if the 'trinity' is the 'central doctrine of the Christian church' should we not find a simple & clear definition of it in the new testament? 1. The word 'trinity' ZERO TIMES. 2. 'God the Father, God the son & God the Holy Spirit' ZERO TIMES. 'There are three persons on one God' ZERO TIMES! However the NT does say "God the Father" THIRTY TIMES! The NT also says "One God the/and Father' SIX TIMES. Trinitarians can only offer 'implications' 'assumptions' 'conclusions' to prove the trinity! Jude tells us "The faith was delivered ONCE FOR ALL TIMES to the Holy ones" ( Jude 3 written around 55AD, centuries BEFORE any mention of the 'trinity!.) Thus from pentecost until at least the death of John, ie for SEVENTY YEARS! God's Holy Spirit was poured out anointing Christians who spread 'the Faith' All WITHOUT any reference to the 'trinity'! Thus we need to heed the apostles dire warnings that "Men would speak twisted things" Acts 20:28-30. Paul said this would occur "After my going away". It did so exactly as he fortold! The 'trinity' is FALSE!

Strong disagree. Salvation is based on Jesus dying to save sinners. Not His identity.

@jb_1971

Жыл бұрын

It is about His identity as the Son OF God.

In Feb. of 380 A.D. Emperor Theodosius I made Nicene Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire with the Edict of Thessalonica. This was enforced by and with the governments threats and actual deadly violence i.e the Roman sword. refer to the Edict itself: It is our desire that all the various nations which are subject to our Clemency and Moderation, should continue to profess that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter, as it has been preserved by faithful tradition, and which is now professed by the Pontiff Damasus and by Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic holiness. According to the apostolic teaching and the doctrine of the Gospel, let us believe in the one deity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, in equal majesty and in a holy Trinity. We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title of Catholic Christians; but as for the others, since, in our judgment they are foolish madmen, we decree that they shall be branded with the ignominious name of heretics, and shall not presume to give to their conventicles the name of churches. They will suffer in the first place the chastisement of the divine condemnation and in the second the punishment of our authority which in accordance with the will of Heaven we shall decide to inflict.

God never been three but always been ONE so Jesus is the Father in flesh: 1Tim.3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

@joeffreysarita1431

2 жыл бұрын

what can you say about that Jesus was raised from the dead by himself... in other part of the Scripture he said he was raised by the Father, and in other part of the scripture, he said he was raised by the Holy Spirit?

@michelhaineault6654

2 жыл бұрын

@@joeffreysarita1431 Yes, and He has been begotten by the Holy Spirit, so Jesus in the trinity doctrine have two Fathers mmm concerning its own resurrection Jesus said: “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.” John2:19

Who in the bible worship a triune god(s) ????????ABSOLUTELY NOBODY !!!!

LOL, talk about muddled! Of all who enjoy hearing Dr. White speak, it is Dr. White who most does!

@fredmiller6166

3 жыл бұрын

White is so arrogant and condescending in his "rebuttals".

Watched this again... "... with all due respect" White begins... then proceeds to give WLC NO RESPECT.

@franciscusgomarus5086

2 жыл бұрын

Heretics deserve no respect

@lp4544

2 жыл бұрын

He deserves none.

@driller7714

2 жыл бұрын

@@franciscusgomarus5086 How Christian of you. Too bad you can’t burn him at the stake right? Pagans like burning people.

@robertknight3354

Жыл бұрын

He's given too much. WLCs celebrity is another thing the post internet world has to fix from the pre internet world. He was likely put in place by a sovereign God to illustrate a bad example for people in error.

According to Scriptures, there are ONLY two divine beings and not three: God, the Father, and His only-begotten Son; the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and of the Son. The trinity god is a false pagan doctrine, and not of God. Jesus said, I quote, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3) And apostle Paul said, I quote, "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." (1 Corinthians 8:6) Apostle John also said, I quote, "... He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:22.b)

Now I know why they keep the comments closed on these videos lol. They bring all the crazies out.

@firingallcylinders2949

2 жыл бұрын

So many people denying the Trinity in this thread, it's sad.

Abraham and Moses? I didn’t think WLC could fall into such a simple category error.🤷🏻‍♂️

Son of man has no where to lay his head.

Here O Israel, the LORD, your God, is one. We do not have many gods like the Evangelicals and Catholics imagine. Rather Jesus Christ is the only-begotten Son of the Father, and is THE Holy Spirit along with the Father and any one of the holy angels of God. See Heb. 1

@justanotherbaptistjew5659

2 жыл бұрын

Seems like you misread Hebrew 1 pretty badly.

@driller7714

2 жыл бұрын

@@justanotherbaptistjew5659 Yes, he missed a bit on defining the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is just that, the spirit of God. It is not a who, it is a what. The Holy Spirit is God, his spirit. It is not a separate person. Jesus is filled, clothed and consumed in Gods life giving Holy Spirit. Jesus is spirit. 1Corinthians “15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit”KJV As far as interpretation of Hebrews 1 goes, no one misses that one worse than trinitarians.

@justanotherbaptistjew5659

2 жыл бұрын

@@driller7714 I tried to respond already but I don’t think it sent through so I apologize if you get two similar messages. The First commenter was a Modalist and you adhere to Macedonianism, denying the personhood of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is always called “Him,” never “it.” There is a distinction made between the Father and the Spirit in Romans 8:26-27: “In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.” - Romans 8:26-27 We are told not to grieve Him, and you cannot grieve an impersonal force. “Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.” - Ephesians 4:30 And we are called to fellowship with the Spirit, which is something you cannot do with a force: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.” - 2 Corinthians 13:14 And we know from Acts 5:3-4 that the Holy Spirit is God. And we know also from John 14:16-17 that the Spirit is distinct from the Father and Son. Since there is one God, we are shown very clearly the mystery of the Holy Trinity, that there is one God who has eternally existed in three persons.

@driller7714

2 жыл бұрын

@@justanotherbaptistjew5659 First of all, I do not even know what you refer to with the label Macedonianism. I don’t belong to any denomination nor do I follow any teachings or philosophies of men. I follow the word of God as written in the scripture. Why would the spirit be called he? Because the spirit is God. God is spirit. The Holy Spirit is God. The Holy Spirit is not a separate person that is called the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, the Fathers spirit. I’ll give you some examples. When Jesus was conceived in the womb of Mary, who came upon Mary and put Jesus in her womb? The Holy Spirit. Yet, the Holy Spirit is not the Father of Jesus. God the Father is. When Jesus was baptized, what descended upon Jesus? The Holy Spirit. Who does Jesus say is in him? The Father. John “17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”KJV Jesus was praying to the Father. Did he forget about the Holy Spirit? Mathew “12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”KJV Did Jesus forget about the Father? Is it ok to blaspheme against the Father? Or is it because the Holy Spirit is the Father? Let’s look at how Paul begins every epistle he ever wrote. Philippians “1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.”KJV God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. Did Paul forget about the Holy Spirit? Or is it possible that Paul knows that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of the Father who is God? Do the Jews worship a triune God? Not that I know of. Let’s see what Jesus has to say about what the Jews worship. John “4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.”KJV The Jews know what they worship. They do not worship a triune god. Hear O Israel, The Lord our God, the Lord is ONE. These are just a few examples. There are hundreds.

@driller7714

2 жыл бұрын

@TheGodlyAnatoly indeed he did

It is nowhere mentioned that GOD, the Holy Ghost, and CHRIST are co-equal. The grave error preventing greater unity, integration and acceptance, and contributing to *idolatry* and the ensuing chaos is believing that CHRIST is equal to GOD when He is actually GOD's "first born." Can anyone show me why the Holy Ghost is equally worthy of praise and worship?

@alexlong9289

3 жыл бұрын

Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

@AllThat-Is

3 жыл бұрын

@@alexlong9289 the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of our Father (Mt 10:20). Jesus (more correctly Christ) is the Father's firstborn. (Col 1:15) There is only One God (the Father.) If you truly believe John 1:1 was divinely inspired, and not a narrative devised by a clever Gentile, that is not backed up by any of the other three gospels, then at best, there is only a Binity (i.e.two persons/personas/aspects in one substance/divinity/God) as opposed to the Trinity of most branches of Christianity.

@alexlong9289

3 жыл бұрын

Read Hebrews chapter 1. The Father speaking to the Son says, "Thy throne O God is forever and ever." Yet in Isaiah 45:5-10, the LORD says besides Me there is no God. And firstborn in Colossians does not mean first created. It's referring to priority. First in importance. (Again read Hebrews 1). Now look at Psalm 89:27. David was not the first king of Israel was he? Yet God says I will make him my firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. This is what Colossians is referring to. Christ is the fulfillment of the prophecy in 2 Samuel 7:12-14. That is why in Revelation 22 He says I am the root of David. He also calls Himself Alpha and Omega. The same designation mentioned in Revelation 21. And yes the Holy Spirit is God. Just as Christ is God. And the Father is God. Three coequal persons, one God. Not three different gods. Only one God. Also John 10:33, they say to Jesus that He is making Himself out to be God.

@alexlong9289

3 жыл бұрын

@@AllThat-Is and yes I believe all scripture is inspired. So I do believe John 1:1.

@AllThat-Is

3 жыл бұрын

@@alexlong9289 I wonder why God's chosen people are repulsed by this deviant doctrine that is not in any other scripture.

If you believe GOD rose him from the dead then God will raise you up.

Psalms83:18KJV"That men may know that thou ,whose name ALONE is JEHOVAH,art the MOST HIGH over all the earth." Note please that there is but one whose name is JEHOVAH. Note also that this one is the MOST HIGH. Thus if your God is associated with two equals (e.g the trinitarian Jesus.) He is not the Lord JEHOVAH.

@danielomitted1867

3 жыл бұрын

Trinitarians believe there is only one Jehovah. You have to recognize the new testament writings clearly equate Jesus as Jehovah. Its not ambiguous, this isnt a compelling argument.

@misterbobby8913

2 жыл бұрын

@@danielomitted1867 Yeah

I appeal to James White to heed Paul's heartfelt plea to *save Christ's message through Paul to His chosen people from deviant doctrines* that further prevent them from believing. (Acts 20:30-31)

@douglasmcnay644

2 жыл бұрын

Prevent people from believing? If God wants a certain person to be saved, there is nothing that will prevent Him from doing it. This is why we are called to simply preach the gospel, not convince people of its truth.

Oh shut up James. You can tell he's just looking for something to complain about in this video.

"brother Craig" who promotes molinism and neo-apollinarianism but the roman catholic is lost. Consistency?

@Acek-ok9dp

3 жыл бұрын

@Weston S Yes, you are right concerning Molinisim, yet it is kind of semi-heretical considering the implications, given that the counterfactuals of creaturely freedom are self-existent (exist and are true just by virtue of themselves), which is a denial of creatio ex nihilo implicitly. Rome forbade in the 17th century any further debate on that matter, but I think the Jesuits Molina and Suarez where decimated by the Dominican Thomist monergists and predestinarians like Alvarez, Bañez and Poinsot (de auxilis controversy). Even the Jesuit Bellarmine wrote somewhere that a kind of double predestination is unavoidable as a conclusion. Monoenergism and Monothelitism is a heresy condemned at the First Lateran Council 649 and at the Third Council of Constantinople 680/81. It ultimately falls back into Monophysitism which is full-blown heresy.

@Acek-ok9dp

3 жыл бұрын

@Weston S Be careful, you are confusing "monergism" (predestination, original sin and operative grace) with "monoenergism", the claim that there is only one "energy" (operation, activity) in Christ, which lead to "monothelitism", the claim that there is only one "thelema": will, willing in Christ. "Monergism" is a soteriological position, whereas "monoenergism/monothelitism" is a christological position. The First Lateran and Third Constantinopolitan Council condemned the latter not the previous one, and advocated "dyoenergism/dyothelitism" (two energies and wills in the incarnate Christ), which was defended and developed by Sophronius of Jerusalem and Maximus the Confessor and summarised by John of Damascus. In the Latin West a form of monergism was actually ratified and confirmed as orthodoxy, look up the Council of Orange 529 (presided by Caesarius of Arles) and the Council of Valence 855 (defence of Gottschalk of Orbais' position). Hence, the Thomist monergists debating the Jesuits couldn't have been heretical. Thomas Aquinas himself became more monergistic towards the end of his life (read his De Veritate, Summa Theologiae and His commentaries on Paul's letters).

@Acek-ok9dp

3 жыл бұрын

@Weston S Well, that becomes an interesting question. Now, monergism is nowhere explicitly condemned by Rome. You always had Roman Catholic monergists, but much less now than in medieval and early modern times, I would say, and that might be out of an reaction against Luther's and the Calvinist position. Rome, however, did condemn Jansenism (a french variety of a strong Augustinianism, Blaise Pascal held to it for example). They were accused of being "Crypto-Calvinists". Jansenism however was condemned primarily more because of their peculiar spirituality. Still there is no explicit condemnation of monergism itself. Contemporary Roman catholics become nervous when you point out that well known medieval thomists were monergists, and what many do is misrepresent Calvinism so that there is no historical claim on the Reformed side.

@Acek-ok9dp

3 жыл бұрын

@Weston S I am glad sir, that I could help you! Love always to do that brother. Of course it ought to be biblical first and foremost, but we ain't the first who read the Bible and there were brethren in the past who wrestled much more intensiley with such topics, some even losing their lives over doctrine. Concerning the Council of Orange and the assertion of "single predestination vs. double predestination" is in my view laughable and superficial. There is predestination and it has a twofold aspect, whereas election is singular (Eph 1:1-14). What Orange has condemned is the view that there is a "predestination to sin". Augustine and his followers developed the doctrine there is predestination unto life and predestination unto destruction (massa perditionis) but no predestination to sin. Orange condemnes this latter one. However Orange doesnt dive into reprobation. The Council of Valence 855 expressely affirms that predestination is twofold, yet repeats the condemnation of Orange that there is no predestination to sin. What I meant by my top comment is that even the Jesuit Robert Bellarmine somewhere (I don't recall where I read it) said that double predestination (predestination as twofold) is inevitable, and I think he said that in reference to Scriptural exegesis.

@Acek-ok9dp

3 жыл бұрын

@Weston S I think Sola Fide is discernible in some Church Fathers. Now, that doesn't mean that they articulated that doctrine in the categories like Luther and Calvin did. Of course it isn't dominating in their writings since they engaged other serious heresies, but it is nevertheless there. I consider myself Reformed in the high church tradition. My background is Eastern Orthodoxy. Confessionally I affirm the Three Forms of Unity, but I am no presby and I am comfortable with the episcopacy.

When you get to Heaven you will be you, I will be me, Jesus will be Jesus and God will be God.

@doulos5815

3 жыл бұрын

Jesus is God. Heresy

@henrylopez7721

3 жыл бұрын

Sorry sir, but Jesus is a person in the God head.

@Christian.Portugues.Francisco

3 жыл бұрын

@@doulos5815 1 John 1: 1. That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2. (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3. That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. The Same John Worte this 1 John 4: 1. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. And the Same John Worte this John 1: 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. The same was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. And also this John 8: 23. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. John 14: 6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 9. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10. Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. What about this Vers of John John 20: 28. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. In parallel to this Vers of David to the almighty: Psalm 35: 23. Stir up thyself, and awake to my judgment, even unto my cause, my God and my Lord. After Jesus resurrection. The Word of God is clear on this sobject. Repent and belive in the Gospel and Turn away from your heresy you wicked sinner

@kelvyquayo

2 жыл бұрын

In Genesis 3:8 The Voice of God is heard Walking in the “spirit” of the day. How does a sound walk? It’s because Jesus is the actual Word of the eternal God.. They are One.. Father, His Word, and His Breath… all eternal.. inseparable and immutable and interrelational with each other as persons.

@ChiliMcFly1

2 жыл бұрын

@@kelvyquayo So in Exodus 19 no body could see God ?

He is self-contradictory.

Three -persons- witnesses. Three persons can be three witnesses. But three witnesses are not necessarily three persons.

@siradamthebombdiggity

3 жыл бұрын

What is a person?

William Craig’s message was approximately 100 times clearer than this garbled mess

There is no verse that says if you don’t believe Jesus is God you’re not in the kingdom There’s also no triune God in scripture Not even a false pagan one Jesus HAS a God ‘one being of God three divine persons’ Found nowhere in scripture Sounds super Greek “Being and person are not the same thing” Never found in scripture Sounds super Greek

@williemaysfan1731

2 жыл бұрын

So your saying Jesus isn’t God? Did Jesus exist before he was born incarnate?

@mitchellc4

2 жыл бұрын

@@williemaysfan1731 “Born incarnate” Where is that in scripture? No Did Jeremiah exist before he was born?

@williemaysfan1731

2 жыл бұрын

@@mitchellc4 Incarnation refers to the act of a pre-existent divine person, the Son of God, in becoming a human being.

@williemaysfan1731

2 жыл бұрын

Jesus existed before the world was made. He created everything and nothing was created without Him. John 1:3

@mitchellc4

2 жыл бұрын

@@williemaysfan1731 No Jesus did not exist physically before he was born We can do John 1:1 Who is “GOD” referring to The word was with God The word was with the Father? The word was with Jesus? The word was with the trinity?

It's not essential. So don't worry, Trinitarians aren't damned.

This man is very confused.