I run on donor funds! If you appreciate me and what I do, links to donate are below! THANKS! 00:00 Disclaimers, what Kwaku is known for 4:35 Kwaku’s conversion to Mormonism 6:30 Kwaku liberal background, right-wing Mormon apologetics 14:50 Ad Hominem attacks, Ward Radio, Jacob Hansen 18:25 New Name Noah attacks 22:30 Kwaku’s left-wing opinions, DezNat 25:52 What IS Mormonism? 31:18 Kwaku’s version of Mormonism vs mainstream 36:00 Joseph Smith vs the gospel vs the church 43:19 Did Joseph not speak with authority on behalf of God? 52:55 The entire big picture of what Joseph has taught 1:02:00 Authority of the institution vs Kwaku’s view 1:10:20 Jubilee: “Is M*sturbation a sin?” 1:13:00 Are Mormons having premarital s*x? 1:15:02 Utah is a state that is overly sexually liberated? 1:34:04 What would Kwaku say to orthodox Mormons? 1:46:00 Thomas Edison analogy, reject what doesn’t work 1:57:03 Taking the pain of ExMormons seriously 2:04:25 Dan Vogal: Is the revelatory power from BoM to church not the same? 2:09:00 Do other Mormon sects have the priesthood too? 2:12:31 Should the church be spending so much money on temples? 2:20:00 Is the temple still needed? 2:24:05 What is “true”? Utility vs validity 2:28:30 Does Kwaku think the BoM is historical? 2:42:40 Tight vs loose translation, anachronisms 2:45:10 Can Joseph use Satanic devices? 2:51:37 Deutero-Isaiah 2:56:06 Is Joseph not a fraud if you look at the entirety of the issues? 3:03:40 Is the Tower of Babel real? 3:04:35 Israel Palestine, Zionism 3:11:40 Summary 🤝 DONATE VIA DONORBOX! donorbox.org/thanks-for-the-amazing-content-carah-let-me-help-you-keep-it-funded 👩‍💻 Join the Hoetown community on Patreon: www.patreon.com/nuancehoe 🍯 Tip Jar (Venmo: CarahB): account.venmo.com/u/CarahB

@sheldonmurphy6031

4 ай бұрын

Ma'am! This is absolutely the best video I have seen of yours so far! 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

@efolinsky

4 ай бұрын

Please stop using donorbox!!! The platform is pro white supremacy and very anti LGBTQIA! Please please please stop using that platform for donations!!!

@mokihanakauai9219

4 ай бұрын

Qg😅g

@sgee-vc1hz

4 ай бұрын

Kwaku has transfigured into a Telestial Smoothie with a stash --- what's up with That???

@sgee-vc1hz

4 ай бұрын

@@korvaamiko66 Telestial Smoothie means Kwaku is not going to have a wiener in mormon heaven --- are you saying Kwaku is Not doing bi-sex porn???

I think that this is a classic example of the conversations between a convert and a born church member. Converts are able to take a much more liberal view of the church. This mirrors my conversations with my parents who are converts. They are able to not let the truth claims of the church matter when challenged because they can make way for mistakes. I was taught my whole life and it was ingrained in my developing brain that the church and everything in it was True True True with a capital T. I was raised much more orthodox, so the truth claims mattered to me.

@anahiguerrero653

4 ай бұрын

im so sorry for your experience, but even so what do you think of the new converts that support the church?

@jivajenmoreno-adams9984

4 ай бұрын

100% agree. Being raised in high demand religion creates cPTSD (Stockholm syndrome level gaslighting). Especially with enough years (I’m 58) to see The Church flip flop on beliefs and erase actual history from the records.

@jacobsamuelson3181

4 ай бұрын

Wait your parents didn't raise you? How were you raised Orthodox when your parents were liberal?

@rebekahrutledge1633

4 ай бұрын

@@anahiguerrero653 I think they are doing their best, but it is just hard because I am scared for them since I know they are building their life on a lie.

@TexasTornado66

4 ай бұрын

I fully agree. Those who were raised in the church were taught, it’s all or nothing. It boggles my mind how these new Mormons can do buffet-mormonism. We were taught in Seminary, that if you’re luke warm, God will spew you out of his mouth (Bible verse: Rev 3:16).

Kwaku confirms what I always thought about him: his concept of what the church is and says is so completely different than what the church actually is. His version of Mormonism does not exist in the mainstream church. He has come up with it for himself which is amazing and if that makes him happy that's awesome but he cannot even attempt to convince anyone that what he believes is what mormons (fully engaged active Mormons) believe.

@shanejensen8484

4 ай бұрын

Wrong, we are everywhere.

@brooklynparkse

4 ай бұрын

That’s what I came to say. Every time he talks about his party crowd and not “seeing” what I’d assume all of us have seen in the church, it’s a bit maddening. Just because it’s an endless loop of “hundreds of thousands of Mormons live with shame and repression”…”yeah, but that’s my experience and I’ve never seen it and not according to what my version of what Joseph said.” And around and around we go.

@davek2906

4 ай бұрын

Bingo

@mateomartinez8641

4 ай бұрын

you're projecting

@daniellima2973

4 ай бұрын

He is like the tattooed Mormon girl . He makes the church look good or less cult like . So he is useful for the Church. So they give him lots of leeway . No bishop is gonna mess with him .

Seeing the pair of you debating in such a respectful manner has been a breath of fresh air. I appreciated Kwaku's willingness to sit down and talk with you and I appreciated the respectful and professional way that you carried on the conversation. Well done.❤

@teaksworld

4 ай бұрын

I’m only an hour in and shocked

@shanedunlop8748

4 ай бұрын

Yeah the conversation is great but the chat comments are trash.

@Apostolinen

4 ай бұрын

@@shanedunlop8748 thought the same :D

@jasminejacob1870

6 күн бұрын

This is not a debate. It's a discussion.

I keep wanting to say " that's nice, but that's not what the church teaches at all. " I mean, the core of the church revolves around prophets speaking for God and unquestioning obedience. It's in the doctrine, it's how people are raised from birth and it does actual harm. Denying it because you don't believe it is unhelpful.

@joshyang1394

4 ай бұрын

I think he realizes the unanswered questions in the church but really wants to hold onto its idealogies because his heart strings are really tugging at him to believe the Book of Mormon is true.

I admire Carah and Kwaku for being willing to sit down with each other for this discussion. The discourse feels so authentic from both of them.

@SilentThundersnow

4 ай бұрын

He's a liar. And this is his grift.

Bro. You're a mental gymnastics gold medalist.

@matthewtfields8566

4 ай бұрын

Thank you!

@apxsports5904

4 ай бұрын

He managed to master the art of applying every fallacy in order to dodge, deflect, change the goal post, and avoid answering questions and objections that he was not able to answer.

@jessicac6787

Ай бұрын

Spot on!! 👏👏👏👏

@benpobanz4792

5 күн бұрын

Why is that always the answer when anti’s don’t have anything intelligent to say 😂 history is complex. Gospel is complex. Culture is complex. I sure hope some mental gymnastics is happening it’s good for you! 💪

Has anyone ever heard actual mormon missionaries speak like Kwaku? This is not how the church presents itself.

@burpleflemingo7034

4 ай бұрын

He is not a proselyting missionary and never has been, but every member a missionary....he's a very intelligent young man tho but byu is where he's been.

@jacobsamuelson3181

4 ай бұрын

Missionaries are there to represent the Church. Kwaku is there to represent Kwaku. They are obviously not going to be saying the same thing. Unless they wanted to start the Church of Kwaku El.

@Themanyfacesofego

4 ай бұрын

@@burpleflemingo7034 Thanks. That's true, but people left their own denominations from the 60's to the 90's and joined the LDS church, because they were seeking clarity. They were seeking THE true church. They joined because it had Apostles and Prophets who spoke directly to God. They joined because it was Conservative. Therefore to discover all this nuance and rationalization from more recent converts such as Kwaku, must be disconcerting.

@FFM115

3 ай бұрын

He’s an apologist for the church so he mastered the art of mental manipulation. That’s what apologists do, they don’t have a commitment to the truth, instead their commitment is to the institution and it’s image.

I’m not Mormon, so I have no expertise. It seems to me that this young man, being a convert, does not have the experience of being Mormon from birth and having the expectations of perfection, etc put on him. He hasn’t experienced the damage that can come from the shaming that someone might who has been Mormon since birth.

@juleemobley305

4 ай бұрын

This. Exactly. Most of us didn’t have the luxury of a Mormon buffet. It was all or nothing.

@danib712

4 ай бұрын

My brothers wife’s family is Mormon. (Not them not her whole fam is Mormon but a good amount) and he believes that Mormons are all brought up very well … to the point that he wishes we were brought up like them…it really breaks my heart that he believes that bc I know a lot of ex Mormons who will say the opposite and Iv done my research as well

@igoldenknight2169

4 ай бұрын

You underestimate Kwaku. His upbringing is pretty interesting. Despite that however, he's definitely experienced things.

@RaineInChaos

4 ай бұрын

@@juleemobley305I mean, anyone CAN pick and choose which parts they want to believe (in theory) but what I don't understand is how (if?) he's maintaining an actual church membership. If someone wants to just read the book of mormon at home and believe Joseph Smith that's fine, but if you are trying to actually be part of the church and the community then you are actually beholden to their rules, even if they're being set by out of touch old white guys.

@chay516

4 ай бұрын

Agreed! Literally praying for my family

Kwaku’s version of reality as an LDS member isn’t anywhere close to the church I grew up with. We were told that the prophet literally sat in a room and talked to God, that the prophets’ word was God’s word and it would never lead us astray. Premarital sex made you a lesser person, there was no going back, your were tainted. I like his optimism, though. He seems like a nice guy, when he’s not with Cardon.

@hbendzulla8213

4 ай бұрын

Correct that is what I was told in the last 1950s when I joined to church. Everything changed big time most of it to be more helpful for the LDS church to clean

@TheWrigle

4 ай бұрын

I grew up in Utah in the 2000s, graduated HS in 2015 for reference, and experienced the same thing. Can't say I have kept a super close eye on the church since I lift 8 years ago, but doubt it has changed that much in such a short period.

@ksparks689

4 ай бұрын

@@TheWrigle I grew up in Kentucky in the 80’s and 90’s.

@daraander3924

4 ай бұрын

I couldn't even think about the brethren as "old guys" until after I left. Those "old guys" were THE authority in my life.

@bobocomments

4 ай бұрын

None of what you're saying is true

repeatedly: "All the guys I know are having sex before marriage and there's no guilt" unless they're having sex with each other, you're missing a BIG part of the picture here

@greg-op2jh

21 күн бұрын

LOL this is my favorite comment ❤

I would love to hear a Native American perspective of the mormon history on their land...there seems to be a lot of discussion around race, mostly black vs white. Native genocide is kind of glossed over in most history. It's not right.

@chelseam126

4 ай бұрын

I agree. I have a native ancestor who was purchased by Mormons, and I always had the Mormon view of having a "lamanite" ancestor growing up. As an adult I left the church and married a Native American never mo, and it has opened my eyes to a whole new way of viewing things, from his perspective. The generational pain I can still hear in his voice and see in his eyes because of the way his people were treated is visceral when he talks about Native American history. He's absolutely shocked by some of the things I was taught/believed my whole life. Our children have his native blood, and I can't imagine teaching them the things I was taught growing up. I want to hear more from Native people's perspectives. Their voices need to be heard!

@savascha

4 ай бұрын

@@chelseam126 I totally agree. The Indigenous voices about what the church did to them absolutely needs to highlighted.

@sbditto85

2 ай бұрын

My wife is a Native American and the more she learns about what happened the more she is disgusted by the churches history

@tkhachi

25 күн бұрын

Mormon stories did several videos with Native Americans years ago. I just went back and watched one the other day ^_^

@greg-op2jh

21 күн бұрын

​@@chelseam126absolutely! So well said. I am sending your beautiful family so much love. My best friend growing up she was 100% native american. Her culture intrigued me so much. We both moved from out of state around the same time. Her family was so amazing. I have always loved animals and nature, and felt like we needed balance. I hardly even kill insects. But literally my evangelical friends would call her satanic. My parents were very religious not in a controlling way. She was called horrible things. She tried to overdose on pills our senior year. I came over, she was acting bizarre. Finally I'm literally threw her over my shoulder and ran her into the hospital. She literally was bullied into wanting to die. It broke my heart. Today she is a proud mama and her husband is part black/mexican. Such a beautiful family. These disgusting teachings infect people, when its all based on othering people. We are important and pure and yall are not. I am so over it. ❤ Thank you for sharing your story.

Kudos to Kwaku for showing up. GOOD to hear him outside the Midnight Mormon/Ward Radio echo chamber-Romper Room.

@jacobsamuelson3181

4 ай бұрын

Wish I could say the same Your echo chamber is pretty big.

@krismurphy7711

4 ай бұрын

@@jacobsamuelson3181 Echoes with Truths and Facts

@cerealflakes12

4 ай бұрын

@@krismurphy7711 and Zionist propaganda apparently. You leave the church but you can't leave your colonial mindset behind, very sad

@aluf2567

4 ай бұрын

​@krismurphy7711 that's debatable. Everyone's chamber has "truths" and "facts" according to each person's own echo chamber.

@krismurphy7711

4 ай бұрын

Truths and Facts can be proven. @@aluf2567

I think Kwaku doesn’t realize what church he’s a part of..

@jacobsamuelson3181

4 ай бұрын

How so?

@jonbaker476

4 ай бұрын

Agreed. Kwaku is kinda living in his own world while attending the mainstream church. He has his own doctrines and policies, and he openly goes against what the Brethren say. Not on everything but on many things. It's like he's slathered in vaseline and is entirely oblivious to actual mormon culture

@DLchi13

4 ай бұрын

This. He is in some made up church in his mind.

@mylesmarkson1686

4 ай бұрын

You did a great job on your video of this Forrest. Well-done. Perhaps I was wrong about you.

@blondandsmart1

3 ай бұрын

100%. His version of living in the church wasn't even an option for me, family, or friends...etc. He's living the watered down Mormon/LDS lifestyle. It doesn't seem like he was affected by the intense obedience and authority factor that most Mormon/LDS members are raised with from birth.

1:15:20 I trust that Kwaku is telling the truth about seeing this side of Mormon culture that is exploring their sexuality, but to go on to say that he does not see the same world of sexual repression and dysfunction reveals that he really has blinders on. 1:19:05 Weird Bishop interviews? These interviews are not weird; they are a common feature of Mormon life and of mine as a boy and as a man. The lesson to members concerning sexuality is that there is no sexual activity outside of temple marriage which God would approve of. None. the fact the sexuality is explored by members is not evidence that it is acceptable.

So happy to see the two of you together doing this. Break down those barriers to find peace.

I think Kwaku would benefit from some time talking with, one on one, some former believers who were hurt by church doctrine. From text, to pulpit preaching. He seems incredibly dismissive about the real harm suffered inside the Mormon churches, plural. I mean, the Boy Scout issue alone is horrific. I do wish Carah had reeled him in a tiny bit more, because he was just rambling on esoteric beliefs that are not mainstream in any Mormon faction. I honestly wonder if he goes to church at this point. Not that he can’t have his own beliefs, but nothing he said was mainstream, at all.

@krismurphy7711

4 ай бұрын

It's a start. I was shocked this happened. Hopefully more episodes to follow.

@trudes4415

4 ай бұрын

This.

@brooklynparkse

4 ай бұрын

I know. What he was describing was more like unto a philosophy of Mormon lore than what the church is - a highly structured, patriarchal, high-control cooperate religion. We’re not even reading the same book, fam.

@savascha

4 ай бұрын

@@brooklynparkse agreed. And his desire to crowbar apart his concept of Mormonism from the LDS church was bewildering. It felt extremely disingenuous, because he knows that when people talk about Mormonism, they mean the LDS church. The splinter churches are tiny and virtually unknown outside their own congregations.

@jivajenmoreno-adams9984

4 ай бұрын

Thank you. You nailed it. His esoteric new age apologetics were 100% dismissive to the millions of actual human beings who’ve had to live under the Neck of Mormon Elder’s Knees! Insensitive Kwaku. Just another Mormon Narcissist Man.

It’s easy to dislike those in the public eye when they have opinions different than yours, but it’s so much harder to see the people behind those personas. I’m really glad they were both brave enough to do this video. I appreciated the calm back and forth, and the genuine interest. Well done!

Hmmmm

@Bunny_Ribbit

Ай бұрын

the way this comment has 197 likes 💀

@RyanMercer

Ай бұрын

@@Bunny_Ribbit 💀

@doctorquestian

Ай бұрын

Wow. I think this discussion needs a referee so that both parties can stay focused on what the subject matter is. Who cares what your politics are? I don't understand what you guys are even talking about. Sounds like your jobs are moving but you're not making any sense. This young man embraces Mormonism, but does he realize that Mormonism does not embrace him? Based on the color of his skin! Llosa Smith's in Brigham Young Arlington the graves.

I love Carah and Kwaku conversing! This is so important to give both sides a chance to say their truth! Hope to see more of this!♥️

@littlezentz

4 ай бұрын

LOVE LOVE LOVE

What Kwaku is presenting is not what the church teaches. Could he say these things to a bishop, in a class, or to a GA and have them agree with him? No. He doesn't actually believe that the prophet and apostles are anything more than old men with bad ideas. That wouldn't fly with typical mormons, and especially not with leaders.

1:07:47 Kwaku explaining that we shouldn’t follow the prophet without realizing that it’s against his own answer to the ‘what does it mean to be Mormon’ question at the beginning of the interview

1:25:02 The discussion on sexual repression seems to highlight a divide in the church between how women and men are taught about sexuality. From my experience, women were taught they aren't supposed to have sexual desires while men have sexual desires but should not act on them until marriage. While both are harmful, the first teaches self policing of feelings while the second teaches self policing of actions.

@shanejensen8484

4 ай бұрын

why is it harmful to wait until marriage.

@kjones9744

4 ай бұрын

@@shanejensen8484 it’s not always, but it is sad when you hear about people who wait until marriage only to find out that they are not sexually compatible, happen to a friend of mine. I don’t have any statistics to back me up so take everything I said all with a grain of salt.

@katie17330

4 ай бұрын

@@shanejensen8484 Like kjones9744 said, it's not always a bad thing. It can be a problem when the motivation for waiting is based in shame or fear of feeling guilt. I've heard too many stories from women who have learned to associate sexual desire or satisfaction with guilt and shame. Those feelings of shame don't suddenly disappear on someone's wedding night. It definitely happens for some men too, but I see it more frequently and often more intensely in women.

@katie17330

4 ай бұрын

@@shanejensen8484 If you look up "purity culture" you will find a lot more discourse on why and how people can be hurt by this approach.

@kristitimbrel189

4 ай бұрын

If you are a LDS believing woman, and you wait until marriage to try anything sexual, its gonna be a huge and sad surprise IF you find out that your eternal mate and you, are not sexually compatible, or is into kinky sex practices, that are repulsive and feel abusive.....what are you suppose to do???? As a good LDS, you quietly lay there and take it, year after year, after bloody freakin' year. - After stepping away from the Church, I raised my kids with all the information, and told them to find someone compatible, which may mean, taking a "test run" if needed and wanted.... Against Church teachings? Yes, but my kids need better, than being potentially bamboozled!!

Love this respectful conversation! This is the most authentic Kuaku I’ve ever listened to! Thank you both very much!

This gave me new respect for Kwaku. Although the conclusions are pretty different, I appreciate that he wants to be honest on his stance even if unpopular with many or confusing. NuanceHoe, nice work on keeping composure in allowing the conversation to keep a decent grounding. Worth the 3+ hours.

Was refreshing to see an lds member who acknowledges the other sects of Mormonism. I did not even know most of that history existed growing up lds, much less that a lot of those groups still exist to this day. While I don't buy into anything that came from Joseph Smith these days, it is nice to hear someone acknowledge that there is a difference between ideals and institutions. Thank you both for this amazing discussion!

Careful Kewaku being enlightened is what has been the reason for some of us being excommunicated! Thank you for being open minded! Carah you are awesome!

@hanako4475

4 ай бұрын

I was thinking this too. People have been excommunicated simply for being public with questions about how "true" the teachings are. He's essentially saying lots of it could be not true. What IS true is that Carah is in fact awesome!

@joshcooper7

4 ай бұрын

Lol. Sure mate. It was because you were enlightened lol

@HardNigga-tr4uy

3 ай бұрын

@joshcooper7 Breaking free from the lies of the con man Joseph Smith Jr. would definitely be an enlightenment. Not that you have to be a genius to realize the obvious falsehoods the Mormon church is built on,. It’s still a freeing and opening of the mind from being a slave to a cult to not living your life based on the lies of an early 19th century con man.

Okay so.... I actually think a really great monthly podcast would be you guys doing an episode like this continuing discussion and also discussing current events as time goes on.

Kwaku's thoughts on Mormonism is the epitome of having your cake and eating it too.

This was marvelous! Thank you for showing us how it can be done. Making kindness cool again. 💜

I think the biggest difference here is how seriously you take the authority of the “prophet” and the brethren. If you were raised not to question authority the church can be extremely harmful. Everyone should have a healthy skepticism of authority. We should teach our children to think critically and ask questions. Unfortunately the church strongly discourages that.

@aworldofoneness

4 ай бұрын

This hits the nail on the head and highlights the difference between those who are raised in the religion vs converts. The approach to how young people are taught to be inflexible in their beliefs and discouraged from exploring their own spirituality is what causes so much of the trauma. This is why there is such an enormous difference between the comfortability of born and raised Mormons and converts when it comes to parsing out the different elements of the faith vs the institution.

@ssrose18

4 ай бұрын

I think it also depends on what time period and point in their life they converted. My family joined the church when I was 10yo. It definitely shaped my view on things at such a young age. But my mother wholeheartedly believes in the power and authority of the prophets and apostles and I was taught the same. I'm sure some of that has to do with my family being converted in the 90s. It would most definitely be different for someone who was converted in the 2000s and 2010s. We didn't have access to the actual history of the church and documents that we do now.

Even though I got really frustrated at points I really enjoyed this lol. Good job Carah and Kwaku is a good sport!

His reasoning for why mormonism is true is that celestial marriage and multiple heavens sound so impressive? Wait until he discovers sci-fi/ fantasy

@robinsaxophone232

4 ай бұрын

And, as a male, it’s even more impressive. Multiple celestial marriages with submissive females.

@jacobsamuelson3181

4 ай бұрын

Which came first religion or sci-fi fantasy?

@freudianslip000

4 ай бұрын

​@@jacobsamuelson3181 Ooh, this is such an intriguing question, I love it. 🤔

@demanitorres5925

4 ай бұрын

@@jacobsamuelson3181religion is the belief of god pretty much, science can’t be done in a world where there’s no order. Order must come from order not disorder, science can only be done in a universe that was structured .

@Kree.B.

4 ай бұрын

So scientology?

I'm an ex-Muslim who has no knowledge about Mormonism, but watching Jordan and Mackay's channel recently has intrigued me to listen to more of these podcasts.

@danielclingen34

4 ай бұрын

Mormon Stories is a really good podcast on the topic.

@mohsen9763

4 ай бұрын

​@@danielclingen34yes they are great

@savascha

4 ай бұрын

Do you find any new insights into your experience in Islam by listening to these? Because I left the Mormon church really young but just avoided thinking about it for a long time. But then I became obsessed with learning about cults. I watched Going Clear about Scientology and suddenly all my Mormon issues came to light and I had to start working on unpacking it, 30 years after I left 😅

@elijahhawaii

4 ай бұрын

There are some similarities between Islam and Mormonism. I am an ex-Mormon. The Mormon church is a fundamentalist, highly conservative, high demand religion. The difference between Mormonism and the other Christian denominations is their Book of Mormon and book of supposed modern-day revelations called Doctrine & Covenants. There has been a lot of revelations by members of the Mormon church who often end up being former members of the church that the whole Book of Mormon and the story of the founding of the church by Joseph Smith is all invented. This comes from an unlikely source, not anti-mormon sites but the church's own site. You can do an internet search for the CES Letter and read that. It is a church worth over $150 billion and they tried hard to hide that money even from its own members.

@jacobsamuelson3181

4 ай бұрын

Try looking at both sides. Ward Radio and Thoughtful Faith will have opposing views on what is going on. Are you mostly interested in the Religion or the exMember community?

I'm glad you finally got him there and everyone seems to be safe. ;-) Kwaku definitely has the privilege of joining the church and living in Utah at a time when he can have this pick and choose version of Mormonism. Yeah, it's great that Joseph Smith and other church leaders have had some interesting teachings, but there's a reason that the church has a history of racism and misogyny (and I would love for him to answer how a ‘non-racist’ Joseph Smith denied Jane Manning James from receiving her endowments). And it is certainly a recent development that there are people who engage in activities like pre-marital sex without consequences. I grew up where I had multiple relatives and other people I knew getting excommunicated for any "sexual indiscretion." Just because more bishops TODAY don't think that a couple experimenting sexually before or after marriage should immediately excommunicated or disfellowshipped doesn't mean that's how it was even ten years ago.

@andreapatton1054

4 ай бұрын

I got asked to go to a disciplinary council in 2020 for sex after divorce!

@greg-op2jh

21 күн бұрын

​@@andreapatton1054thats crazy!

Great episode Carah! Kwaku, one thing you are missing is that it is NOT just those church authorities that people who grow up Mormon are taught to obey. Families also have a hierarchy of authority, and in some families children are taught to obey unquestioningly. Often, children who balk at being treated this way end up in “youth camps” where they are beaten into submission. Real violence is happening on the family level- Ruby Franke, Jodi Hildebrandt, Lori Vallow, and Chad Daybell come to mind. Those are extreme examples, but I have heard many people’s stories on this and a couple other you tube channels, and quite a few of them talk about “discipline” that I would call abuse.

I am now convinced after watching this that the only reason Kwaku has been able to stay in the church is because he wasn't born and raised in orthodox Mormonism. He's too smart and intelligent and free thinking, but because he's a convert he gets to pick and choose what parts of the religion he wants.

@FooWifeX

4 ай бұрын

Agreed. His convert status allows him that privilege. Those of indoctrinated since we were 18 month old babies, didn’t get that privilege.

@luxdolphin-care6586

4 ай бұрын

When you say "Orthodox" Mormonism, do you mean fundamentalist? Orthodox ancient, or the old ways. LDS were fundamentalist before the ways changed by the prophets later. Please help enlighten me if I'm on the wrong path. Sincerely. Some of the most lovely people I have met have been people that are LDS.

@FooWifeX

4 ай бұрын

@@luxdolphin-care6586 I can’t speak to ladrac’s opinion, but I wanted to say that only YOU can determine what path is right for YOU. That’s the beauty of life and our ability to choose! 👊🏽 As far as what I personally believe the definition of “Orthodox Mormonism” is in this context, those of raised LDS as babies esp in the 70’s/80’s/90’s, we had to follow VERY STRICT LDS rules. (As opposed to fundamentalist Mormon, which is more like the polygamous sects of Mormonism. They are defo WAY MORE hardcore than LDS are). So, as much as LDS love converts, having a convert speak about his LDS Mormonism not being very rule-following or rule-oriented, it feels like he belongs to a different religion that what we were raised in, as LDS teens/young adults.

@82566

3 ай бұрын

​@YoureTerribleMuriel2009 so well said thank you

@theephraimite

3 ай бұрын

As if there are no converts who left the church.

I respect Kwaku a lot more after this. That said, he seems like the type of person who has been in the Celestial Room on mushrooms.

@canaliculus

4 ай бұрын

😂

@whitesalamander

4 ай бұрын

“been in the Celestial Room on mushrooms” is the best of all comments about Kwaku. 😂

@joshcooper7

4 ай бұрын

Who hasn't?

Very interesting… Kwaku sounds like he is speaking from his own thoughts…until he starts quoting Cardon and gets on the apologist merry-go-round of excuses. Carah, you did an amazing job!

Also, Carah, you were right on when you pushed back on him about what most mormons experience growing up and how many of them marry as virgins. I grew up in Davis county. NONE of my friends had sex before they got married. They all fooled around some, but all got married before having sex, so Kwaku's assessment that over 50-70% of YSAs are having sex before marriage is I think a little naive and I bet is more representative of just his circles of friends and not the broader LDS YSA population

@kennethd.9436

4 ай бұрын

I was at BYU when Brandon Davies was suspended from the BYU basketball team because he had sex with his girlfriend. (2011) Now a decade later, premarital sex is okay at BYU? 🙄

@blondandsmart1

3 ай бұрын

I had friends that not only didn't have sex but didn't know HOW to have sex (and this was when they were 18 years old). This community, when raised with it, can be very strict, and very very sheltering.

Great interview! It feels like Kwaku wants it both ways. He says he believes the philosophy of Mormonisn and doesn't care about the details but when challenged on JS own teachings says "show me where JS wrote those words". Well, JS wrote BoM. Also, as a convert, Kwaku cannot relate to trauma of people born/raised in LDS and he should just say so instead of trying to deflect/defend the chrch. But still great interview! Love you Carah ❤

Carah, I've watch Kwaku for years and this is the first time I think I have seen him really let his guard, and persona down and be thoughtful for a long session. Great discussion, and new perspective of him.

Bravo to you both for such an interesting and respectful debate. After listening to Kwaku, it seems that the trick to staying in the LDS church is to reconstruct your own version of Mormonism based on ideas and do whatever you want. The rationale is that the leaders are old, so they just don't get it, and sex outside marriage is ok. Just repent if you decide to settle down and get married. There is no reality where that kind of justification works in my brain. I was able to nuance ideas about God being more expansive and loving, but I couldn't get on board with even drinking coffee until I had fully left the faith. But that's just me. I can't go against my conscience. To me, all that justification (about doctrine, history, sins...) is super messy and painful. This discussion helps me to understand why and how some people stay. While I personally can not rationalize in that way, I can hold space for people who do, if it makes them happy.

@derrickfolkmanman

4 ай бұрын

Well said. I especially relate to the part about not being able to go against my conscience without experiencing messy painfulness. I don't know why Kwaku would want to be part of an organization that teaches such opposites to many of his beliefs.

@joshcooper7

4 ай бұрын

When did he say sex outside of marriage is OK? You can't create your own version but mormonism isn't Utah State. Some of us were born outside the USA.

Just for dichotomy, Kwaku wears earrings and I’m sure in his circles that’s totally normal and not looked down on. In all my years of hanging out in singles wards with college kids, I’ve seen one guy with an earring. The math ain’t mathing.

@annabellethomson813

4 ай бұрын

Totally agree, 20 years in Mormonism, some time in singles wards, never have I seen a man with any piercings at all

@Doctordevey

4 ай бұрын

Oh because he is fraud and an actor. It's very clear. I also noticed he doesn't do as well without a script.

@bygoneunicorn

4 ай бұрын

Within the last few years it’s become more common. Still very rare and signals a diversion from mainstream mormonism

@ligairi

4 ай бұрын

Never attended a singles ward but I was raised in the church, served a mission, got married in the temple … and had my ears and nose pierced since high school, my tongue pierced in college, dyed hair, tattoos, etc. it wasn’t the cultural norm but no bishop ever stopped me from passing the sacrament or getting a temple recommend. I blessed the sacrament with blue hair. I taught elders quorum with a purple mohawk. I was asked to join the elders q presidency thereafter. Maybe none of those people were surprised when I eventually left the church, but that was due to doctrine, not lifestyle.

@MaestroAki

4 ай бұрын

Carah Burrell nuanced hoe is a saint, what a fantastic bridge building interview! Mormon Stories couldn't do something like this. Very authentic. I wish it was longer!

I loved this you both stayed so kind and respectful to each other. I hope Kwaku is mentally prepared for the fall out of how he will be treated for having the opinions he has on the lds church and its leaders.

@jacobsamuelson3181

4 ай бұрын

Kwaku has been this way for years. We still love him and he's already gotten pushback, but he's still here and no fallout.

@dalbar8241

4 ай бұрын

His view is a common held view on church leaders. Maybe not mainstream, but it’s more common than someone would think.

@mylesmarkson1686

4 ай бұрын

@@jacobsamuelson3181Well of course you love him Jake. How could not after all of the fun times you've had with him at the sex parties?

I'm really struggling with Kwaku's argument that the problems of patriarchy and assault is just an "old white men" problem and not a Mormon problem - if Mormonism is true and right and good, shouldn't it be held to a higher standard than the general populace?

@jacobsamuelson3181

4 ай бұрын

You're right! It should be but the Church has always been a place for sinners and is infected by its environment so It can be a place for Christ can heal them line upon line. Christ experienced the same with his disciples having to get along with Samaritans and Gentiles and publicans. It took some time to get to where everyone is accepted. We should be a higher standard but we go little by little not all at once.

@ruthspanos2532

Ай бұрын

As a non Mormon (raised Catholic), I am appalled by the continued terrible influence both institutions have on US society and the harm it causes. At the same time, i see how there are Catholics who still resent the changes made in Vatican II and the reform being attempted by Pope Francis. I can imagine that the LDS is very concerned about alienating those who enjoy being able to be bigoted and patriarchal.

He didn’t attend the same church I did, or anyone I know. He’s not excommunicated because he is famous. Thats it. You can’t take out the leaders of the church’s words! I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. 😵‍💫

I was threatened with excommunication by my bishop in 2018 for saying far less than this on my private facebook page. How has he not been ex'd yet? Best wishes to Kwaku and happy to see this slightly more nuanced and mature version of the guy he was a few years ago ❤

Overtly sexual? They do it with shame and are cought up in the shame blame cycle. All that guilt is perpetuating the clinging to the Mormon doctrine. That explains a lot.

When you teach literal children about sex and shame before puberty, you sew the seeds of sexual obsession with no outlet for healthy sexuality. By the time they are married, there is so much regret shame, and repression that some do go wild if they have similarly repressed partners desperate for an outlet.

Not enough time to address everything in depth in 3hrs, but every single apologetic Kwaku brought up has been addressed/rebutted. Highly encourage people wondering about the falsehood or truth of the Book of Mormon, Mormonism, or even the Bible to watch/listen to LDS Discussions. Multiple in-depth hours long episodes. Carah, you did a great job with the amount of time you had. ❤Well done to both of you keeping it pretty civil/chill. 👏

@demanitorres5925

4 ай бұрын

Can’t compare LDS teachings to biblical teachings since Christian’s can back their faith by Jesus rising from the dead which is the most probable event that occurred after his death given the historical facts. Joseph smith goes against Jesus by saying the gospel needed to be restored

Nuancehoe, thank you for exposing the fact that Kwaku doesn’t care about whether mormonism is true or not. He's skeptical about any evidence that disproves his current idea and works his way backwards from the conversation he's having with you to the conclusions he already thought were true.

No one is trying to take anything down. Sam just wanted to tweak some rules about worthiness interviews in order to protect children and he was excommunicated. Kate Kelly asked for women to have equal standing in the LDS Church and she was excommunicated. People who fight for ideas are excommunicated.

@m4mtv

4 ай бұрын

14…the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people; 15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant; 16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

@joshcooper7

4 ай бұрын

Thanks God Kate was kicked out.

Really liked hearing more from kwaku! I learned a lot about his position. But dude- I think your experience with mormons and sexuality is not the norm. I went to BYU and while I knew of people having sex, it was very much still a taboo and the majority of my circles were virgins. And this is coming from a BFA major.

A woman raised in the church could never have the luxury to bend spirituality in this way. He’s conveniently ignoring the inequity and sexism in MORMON spirituality

Yeah Kwaku would be labelled apostate pretty much immediately in any normal mormon area if he grew up in the church. Glad he's found his peace with the church but for those of us that were harmed by the church, we aren't so easy to convince it's all okay.

This is the most I have listened to him. He comes across a lot better without his cohorts. I think he has a hard time understanding how painful the church has been. I think he has a healthier way at looking at the church the leadership of the church.

If i grew up in the church teachings and culture he describes especially about sex there is a chance i would still be Mormon. When i was a teenager i felt i was basically the spiritual equivalent of an axe murderer due to the churches teachings and culture. Calling any sexual stuff a parking ticket is bullshit where i grew up at least. Telling a teenager that God says they aren't good enough or worthy to go in his house for doing the sin once is not a parking ticket.

@blondandsmart1

3 ай бұрын

100%

If someone had said the things Kwaku is saying 20 or even 10 years ago they would have been excommunicated. Maybe the fact that he can say it publicly and stay in the church is some kind of progress.

@danielclingen34

4 ай бұрын

I think the LDS has finally learned just a few years ago, that them excommunicating people, especially now in the age of social media is extremely counterproductive to their cause. They don’t like people bringing attention to all the issues in their corporation but them communicating people just brings more attention to the problems in their church

@dianadaschel8646

4 ай бұрын

This is exactly what I have been thinking. Like yeah, people can have their own opinions, but if they state them, they get exed.

@ligairi

4 ай бұрын

No Man Knows My History has been around since before my mom was born. The Mountain Meadows Massacre book since 1950. South Park’s All About Mormons has been available since 2003. Rough Stone Rolling has been at Deseret Book since 2005. The Joseph Smith papers since 2008. When Mark Hofmann blew himself up in 1985 there was plenty of information about the church out there. Anyone under the age of 30 (or is it 80) has no excuse for being a blind follower other than choosing to do no research or think for yourself. Search, ponder, and pray, people. It’s right there.

@sc766

4 ай бұрын

Not for those outside of US

@merrielltuttle3994

2 ай бұрын

I'm so confused, what is the difference between "Mormonism" and the LDS church? I've never heard they are sperate before

I love that Kwaku has found a form of Mormonism that works for him and his happiness. Truly. I think it’s far better to think for yourself and find something that works for you than to never do that thinking at all. What I wish he would acknowledge sometimes, even though he expresses the separation between Mormonism as a philosophy and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, is that he is still a member of the CJCLDS - and that organization does not tend to be super welcoming of arguments and positions such as Kwaku’s, at least from what I understand. It seems like he’s either oblivious to, or maybe just “doesn’t care” about the fact that most active church members are not granted the privilege of believing in the way that he does.

@jacobsamuelson3181

4 ай бұрын

What are you talking about? I've always been able to have crazy ideas as a member. I don't go on the pulpit to pretend it's the absolute truth but any idea that brings you closer to Christ personally is acceptable.

@burpleflemingo7034

4 ай бұрын

Mormons are asked not to get into these types of debates because they can become controversial, contentious, but this debate was rather civilised and Kwaykus are clever young man

@jacobsamuelson3181

4 ай бұрын

@@burpleflemingo7034 This wasn't a debate in any sense. It was a discussion. Which is much better to listen to IMO.

@jonbaker476

4 ай бұрын

@@jacobsamuelson3181 You must be pretty young. Literally just ten years ago there were people being excommunicated for saying that they didn't think it was okay for a bishop to sit alone in a room and ask detailed sexual questions to minors

Both of you did an amazing job! Such a respectful conversation. I appreciate Kwaku’s philosophical answers but wish he would have been a little more straight forward at times. It seemed like he was going in circles to avoid the hard questions.

The sad truth is that if a podunk mormon from Nephi, UT were to get up at sacrament and say any of the things Kwaku says, they would immediately be called in for an apostasy council with their church leaders. It's all fine for Kwaku to have these opinions, but they are 180* reverse from what the church leadership and hierarchy teach and believe. Kwaku makes a lot of good points, but his good points are all against the current LDS church leadership.

@jacobsamuelson3181

4 ай бұрын

You can have a private respectable opinion, but if you think everyone needs to believe that way that's where you cross the line and yes pushing out the leaders. Kwaku isn't doing that at all.

@MormonRescue

4 ай бұрын

@@jacobsamuelson3181 Unfortunately, whenever a member voices something that contradicts what the "brethren" believe, they are in apostasy. I know of a young person whose mission call was recently canceled by their stake president for saying exactly what Kwaku said in this video: that people from other churches can also be saved in Heaven, not just our church. The brethren are as serious as a heart attack at making sure every single member publicly toes their party line.

@jacobsamuelson3181

4 ай бұрын

@@MormonRescue This has not been my experience. Though missionaries should still stick to the handbook if they want to participate in a mission. If they just want to share whatever gospel they want they don't need to churches money and time to do that they have Tik tok instagram or KZread for that. Nemo is still a member apparently but he says crazy controversial stuff all the time. He's on his own time and money to do so.

I thought kwakus energy on what was three Mormons/saints unscripted hasn’t been matched. So excited for this conversation

I suspected this of Kwaku. He’s really fucking brilliant and I can tell. I agree, this guy is too smart. He keeps stating intelligent arguments about the church and stating very intellectually thoughtful ideas and prompts about the church. He also keeps presenting arguments and reasons that almost count but don’t when you actually look into it

@canaliculus

4 ай бұрын

He is very smart but lacks deeper wisdom.

@RaineInChaos

4 ай бұрын

I don't know that he necessarily lacks deeper wisdom. He actually seems like he understands exactly what he's saying and is saying them in the way that he does on purpose. You can't actually question him on ANYTHING because he has an out to literally any criticism. "Oh but did Joseph Smith himself say that? Where and what's the proof it was from him?" "I don't know of any single person who is a virgin or has sexual trauma. Most mormons are TOO sexually liberated. That obviously isn't a problem anymore" "Oh that's just old guys, not just in Mormonism, but everywhere. Getting rid of our old guys won't fix all the other old guys."

@mylesmarkson1686

4 ай бұрын

If by "too smart" you mean "whacked out of his mind", then I could not agree more. What is this guy on?

I'm very happy to see this conversation happening. However, Kwaku talks out of both sides of his mouth a LOT. I feel for the guy because I think he actually is a nuanced thinker, but the problem is that there is no way to reconcile the teachings of Mormonism (however you define it) and come to the conclusions he's trying to come to while remaining thoughtful and logical. It can't be done. I know because I tried. I almost think being "Mormon" is so deeply tied to his identity that even though the doctrines and teachings mostly don't work for him anymore, he can't let it go because it's almost like killing a piece of his sense of self. Which is EXACTLY what ex-mormons go through. He sure sounds like he's on the precipice. I wonder if he'll jump in.

@pneuma_23-rb4dx

4 ай бұрын

yeah it is like killing a part of your sense of self. I started deconstructing recently and its so hard. Very liberating and its better in so many ways, but I relied on and believed in it for my whole life.

@jeannemarie5908

4 ай бұрын

I don’t agree with you. This young man has approached Mormonism with a very open mind. He isn’t a simpleton, he has found a way to work Mormonism into his spirituality, more power to him! I left the church decades ago .. never resonated with it .. never will. But I am so glad he is expressing these very well express thoughts.

@sallygreenfield6991

4 ай бұрын

@@jeannemarie5908 the problem is that he’s doing it by accepting inconsistencies that can’t be simultaneously true. It’s intellectual dishonesty.

@jeannemarie5908

4 ай бұрын

@@sallygreenfield6991 I absolutely do not agree with you. I totally understand what he is saying. He see’s a bigger picture. Sometimes folks can see the same picture.

@sallygreenfield6991

4 ай бұрын

@@jeannemarie5908 Literally the most nonsensical thing I've read all week.

Pretty sure I took the same comedy class with this guy, but we must have run in *very* different circles at BYU…. Also the whole “repent for a few months, get temple recommend and marry once you’ve had your fun” mindset is a real thing but only if you’re a huge liar. If you tell the truth in those interviews (especially if you’re endowed)?? You’re getting a disciplinary council at minimum. Any sexual liberation happening in Mormon circles happens DESPITE the institution, not because of its teachings. Very ignorant to say otherwise.

@advisorywarning

4 ай бұрын

He thinks that sexual liberation is simply hooking up. That is not the case. Most people raised in the church have an unhealthy view of sex- whether they are masturbating or hooking up a lot and feeling shame afterwards, or believing that sex outside of marriage makes you unpure, or believing that homosexuality is wrong or thinking that only men feel strong sexual desire or not understanding consent. And if they don’t- like you said- that is despite the church not because of it. The church encourages & perpetuates sexual shame.

I can see where Kwaku is coming from on a lot of his points, but I think where his argument breaks down is that a lot of the stances he takes would have gotten him excommunicated even just 10 years ago. Much of the leniency he and his circle's been able to experience within this branch of Mormonism has come from outside pressure. I can respect someone who wants to defend Mormonism as an idea, but then what are you doing to hold your religious community to the standard that idea demands? Why defend an institution that isn't practicing what you believe?

Very glad you had him on, and that he showed up. A great example of two people of opposing opinions respectfully discussing divisive topics. Great to be able to hear him outside of the Ward Radio context.

I think also what Kwaku fails to consider or acknowledge is that he is a convert. He had the freedom to choose Mormonism after he became an adult. There was no family pressure to remain in good standing with the LDS Church. When your very first memories include the praise and positive attention from your parents revolve around bearing your testimony: “I know the Church is tawoo!!!” It’s going to be life-altering to become an adult and realize much of Mormon history as taught by the LDS Brethren is false and willfully hidden from the members.

Hypersexuality is not the same as sexual freedom!

So he just redefines Mormonism, says the LDS church isnt Mormonism, and then dismisses anything that doesnt align with his lived experiences, so basically his opinion is useless for anyone other than his Mormon party boys. 🤷🏼‍♂️ The ideas of mormonism are hurtful, plain and simple. God made us sick and he is the only fix, thats immoral 🤷🏼‍♂️

@joshcooper7

4 ай бұрын

Lol. It's isn't hurtful in the slightest.

Kwaku is an interesting character for sure - no matter how thin his apologetic arguments are. You can only hold your faith together so long and give Mormonism so many passes until it becomes the biggest joke of American history. It is unfortunate that he has hung his hat on Mormon quicksand.

@RASECROD

4 ай бұрын

I feel like he’s in it only for the personal gain and clout from it and I don’t blame him, might as well make money from it. A lot of the things he said would get some people excommunicated for apostasy.

@liseklerekoper2441

4 ай бұрын

I think being Mormon is so much a part of Kwaku’s identity, that as much as he sounds like he doesn’t align with the church on so many issues, I think for him to leave the Mormon church would be such a crisis to his identity, that I don’t think he could handle that, at least not right now. Being more a public figure in the Mormon world as far as semi celebrity status, I think it makes it even harder for him to leave. What I do find hypocritical is that there’s been so many people in the Mormon church who have espoused ideas such as Kwaku’s who been been labeled apostates, & some even excommunicated, yet he’s given this wide berth by the church and not called out. That’s a type of privilege to me, & I’m not really sure he grasps that.

Thank you for putting this together and for the time and preparation that went into this. I appreciated the format of open respectful discussion.

@CarahBurrell

4 ай бұрын

Thanks 🤗

This guy is too smart to stay a Mormon the rest of his life. I don’t know what will trigger his exodus, but something will and he will find his way out.

@crimsonred3707

4 ай бұрын

Maybe he gets too much Mormon street cred to leave? He does get lots of affirmation. Plus, lots of smart people believe. I don't know how, but they do.

@rkn2800

4 ай бұрын

Agreed. And I hope he does a podcast about it.

@danib712

4 ай бұрын

A lot of smart people are also the dumbest people

@marthal8862

4 ай бұрын

@@crimsonred3707 DING DING DING! That's exactly it.

@lizhoward9754

4 ай бұрын

Of course there are so many intelligent, educated Mormons who stay in the church. I have never understood that.

I wanted to interrupt so many times 😅😅😅😅 i appreciate how much Kwaku got to talk and tell about his perspective. At the same time I'm disappointed that the actual issues or questions weren't truly addressed. Still very worthwhile and positive interaction

@mylesmarkson1686

4 ай бұрын

Carah probably just didn't want him storming out (which he's done before).

I am interested to see how things play out for Kwaku. He basically is saying that the church president and older GA's need to go. I have seen people get excommunicated for saying as much.

Kwaku’s position sounds very similar to an “all paths lead to God” philosophy. I’d even argue that he has crossed over into “the current church is false, but you can still be saved inside and outside of it”. The implication of his position is that the restoration through Joseph Smith never needed to occur in the first place. If god is so liberal in how they can be saved, then was there to restore? The Delaware tribe’s “Great Spirit” is true - then what’s the point of Joseph Smith’s first vision? Jesus in the Bible is not liberal. He spews the lukewarm out of his mouth and has his enemies brought to his feet and slain before him. His entire plan climaxes in an apocalyptic world-wide genocide as his ultimate vindication. “See? I’m the ultimate lord after all muahahaha!”

@demanitorres5925

4 ай бұрын

Mormonism needs to end due to its falsehood. Jesus actually died and rose from the dead. He gives people the chance to repent of their sins, since he is the judge of the world he knows the hearts and isn’t going around killing people wrongfully when he returns. After all it’s impossible for God to murder

Huge respect to both of you for this discussion!

To his point, I also grew up Mormon outside of the “bubble”. I feel like I can relate to how “chill” it really was to be Mormon. It was not orthodox by any means I’d wear spaghetti straps to church and was still considered a “good Mormon girl”. There was still a lot of sexual shame and a few other things that got me messed up even now. I left mostly bc of the pain of others (including my husband) I think if I continued to turn a blind eye I would have maybe been in Kwakus shoes. I think he just feels fine where he is at and has to turn a blind eye for his own comfort. I’m not gonna judge him for it I just want people to be happy. I’m not gonna force him to help others if it’s going to hurt him (maybe mentally or spiritually). I’m gonna try to do outside the church bc I want to.

I converted to Mormonism in 2010 at age 18. Deconverted several years later because of members like Kwaku. As a convert, seeing members that didn’t take the church and prophets seriously made me question why I even converted. Also I’ve never seen a Mormon look or think like Kwaku and I grew up in Utah. He’s a special breed of Mormon

Even if the majority if young people are having premarital sex many of them would still feel like it was sinful, which is deeply damaging. Right?

I’m not Mormon and have never been, but I did grow up in conservative Christianity. Based on my experience and what I’ve heard from Mormon and former Mormon women is that the experience they have in the church is very different from that of men. Carah makes a good point that consent isn’t emphasized because they’re focused on abstinence. There is also shame involved for women because we’re told that we’re responsible for men’s purity since they’re feral instinctive animals who have no control over themselves. People having sex/not being virgins doesn’t mean that they have rid themselves of the guilt and shame. It just means they’re humans who have sexual urges 1:27:35

There is nothing this guy 3:10:42 won’t believe, but I find it refreshing that he actually calls it magic. It’s hard to argue with someone whose answer to everything is, “it’s magic.”

So... he's all palling around with the church in public, but when faced with criticism he says "Oh sure the LDS church is bad, but i have my own Mormonism in my head, that I made up!". Seems disingenuous, if not hypocritical, to me.

@davidchess1985

4 ай бұрын

There's a debate about whether Joseph Smith was a polygamist??? No there isn't! He had dozens of wives, and it's well documented. What is he blithering about? And good for you calling him out on his comfy complicity and enablement.

@davidchess1985

4 ай бұрын

He's seriously claiming that the Church must be okay about sex, because he knows lots of Church members who are having wild sex? That makes no sense whatever. I can't tell if he's lying or very confused or what. I don't think I'll be able to watch more than half of this; he's just too annoying. Maybe with the sound off...

@DLchi13

4 ай бұрын

Very much agree, this dude is beyond annoying. He believes in nothing so it’s very easy to be chill with all the ways the church oppresses people, he’s “young and it doesn’t impact him at all” is his religion but Mormonism gets him attention.

@mylesmarkson1686

4 ай бұрын

@@davidchess1985I had to watch it with the sound AND the picture off!

Great conversation! As an exmo myself, it's great to see Kwame and Carah talk!

@canihavesamoa

4 ай бұрын

Kwame? 😂 Like from Captain Planet! 😂

@ryangarrard3135

4 ай бұрын

Kwaku, autocorrect smh

I feel like when he’s talking about the sex thing he’s not making the point he thinks he is. In so many ways he’s just writing off all the many bad and harmful teachings of the church as something you can just personally write off. The church still absolutely teaches that sex outside marriage is wrong. The fact that people are swinging just tells me how completely sexually repressed they are.

@joshcooper7

4 ай бұрын

What's wrong with teaching that? Most Christian churches teach that.

I’m a devout member of the Church and watching this was so wholesome and we definitely need way more of this! Respect to you both! 💯💯💯

Great attempts to get Kwaku on the record. My quick assessment, Kwaku has a different viewpoint due to the following: 1-Kwaku wasn't raised in the church, 2- Kwaku has privilege due to his semi-celebrity status and doesn't have to live the commandments the same as rank and file members, 3-Kwaku didn't serve a full time mission, so he hasn't been indoctrinated like full time missionaries are. ---Kwaku gets a pass to have his new age views now, but when he gets married and has kids and has to give up his Young N Dumb stuff, and actually start having callings in a family ward???? Will his easy going attitude/beliefs stay the same as it is now? I doubt it.

Jeez. To what extent are Kwaku's new age belief just a way to move his beliefs beyond reach? You can criticize every leader and organization from the Mormon tradition and it doesn't matter because it still came from on high and has a spiritual dimension that is important. The golden plates and the hill Cumorah? Clearly magical so physical evidence and testimony doesn't matter. Joseph Smith was just a conduit who might not have understood what he was doing so even what he said doesn't matter. You can do this for anything and it just puts your beliefs outside criticism or question. Believe what you want, but if you throw out every method of examining your beliefs except feelings, just stop pretending you care about truth in any way.

@mohawkduda8554

2 ай бұрын

I died a little when he said the matrix....the magic word

Gotta give credit where credit is due. Nuancehoe conducted this interview very well.

I thank you both for being so open and honest in sharing your sides. I loved how relaxed you both were even when disagreeing on things. You both showed what it means to be a kind and gracious adult in having an open honest conversation between opposing perspectives in a mature way. Hopefully your followers on both sides can learn from this interaction. I respect you both so much for your discussion and civility. The world would be a better place if we could all agree to disagree in a mature way like you two did.

The concept of Mormon THEN LDS is very interesting. Seems to be pointing to the idea that there should be or is, another branch he might fit into better than mainstream LDS 56:45

I'm hesitant to say that Kwaku was authentic or not because it's very common for him and the MMs to do a 180 and act completely different when they aren't being watched by non mormons. But he was respectful here

@dbkaggie

4 ай бұрын

That's about how I feel. I get people giving him props for being civil in this conversation, but he's very adept to appealing to the audience. I don't get the vibe that he's as deep in as Cardon and some others but I have a hard time seeing him as much better until he truly pushes back on the right wing and fundamentalist people he associates with.

@burpleflemingo7034

4 ай бұрын

Yes they'd probably make a ward radio segment on this interview/ debate. I look forward to watching that 😂

@elijahhawaii

4 ай бұрын

He just comes across as fake and two-faced. He will be nice to your face and then mock you when you are not around. That is nothing to congratulate. It also comes across as him using the exmos to garner credibility as sooooo nice rather than an apologist with a juvenile back-stabbing demeanor.

@joshcooper7

4 ай бұрын

​@elijahhawaii it's called a joke. Learn to laugh at yourself a little

@elijahhawaii

4 ай бұрын

No idea what you are referring to. "It" is a pronoun that references nothing in previous comments that could be construed as "a joke", and you made none of the comments to say that X or Y is a joke. This thread is not the only place where ppl are saying these same things. He is a fake, and it sound like you are one of his apologists. @@joshcooper7

Kwaku is the Ultimate Cafeteria Mormon. He is literally a church of ONE. At a minimum, he does not attend the same church that I attended for the first 50 years of my life. He claims to think that Nelson is a prophet, but any time Kwaku disagrees with something from the Church/General Authorities, he says, "Well, they are just a bunch of old dudes and they'll be dead in 5 years." He's not defending the LDS church -- he's defending some pretend church that only exists in his mind. (I had that same thought when watching the Jubilee episode.) So, why does he care if people leave the LDS church? Given his definition that Mormonism is more important that the LDS church, why isn't he advocating for everyone to leave the LDS church and go home and study the Book of Mormon on their own and just do their own spirituality? Since he seems to like the Protestant vs. Presbyterian/Methodist/Baptist metaphor, he's like my friends who say that they are Protestant, but don't believe in any of the churches and they do not attend any church. If that's the case, this whole discussion is a moot point. Lastly, his argument that if the LDS church instantly went away there would still be bad people is totally backwards. If the LDS Church is true there should be FEWER bad people because it exists. I have more thoughts, but I honestly don't think there's any point in engaging people like this. P.S. Look up the term Gish Gallop and you'll see a picture of Kwaku next to the definition. He is the embodiment of that debate technique.

I respect Nuancehoe. I’m conservative and she’s liberal and my mentality is that liberals don’t like opposing opinions. So they cancel people. But she listened and even has people on her show she doesn’t agree with. Respect given boo.

For me this has been your best episode that you have shared from your channel! Keep up the good work!! ❤😊

@CarahBurrell

4 ай бұрын

Wow, thank you! (I know we had some tech issues come up but that’s a livestream for you 😂)

His thoughts on only trusting Josephs own writings are a double edged sword. What about the only first vision account in his writing? I would have to spend some time on this but im positive that many of the things that joseph said or were recorded by his scribes would have to be disavowed to maintain a faithful outlook… then again alot of what he is saying would not be considered a faithful outlook 🤷🏻‍♂️

As a Never-more (my preferred Poe descriptor) this was really interesting. I have no skin in the game other than an interest in new religions. Thanks for sharing this!

On the subject of Utah being “sexually liberated”… my experience is that suppressed sexuality leads to an obsession with sex in an unhealthy way. Just because there may be a ton of sexual activity and swinging in the Mormon church doesn’t make it healthy. I could see if TBMs are sexually active outside of marriage, they could be carrying so much shame about it. I don’t see that as healthy or “sexually liberating” at all. Then on the other side, when people are taught that masturbation is healthy and normal and are taught about sex in a non-shameful way, they may still be sexually active but not obsessed with it because it’s been integrated in a healthy way and just a part of life like anything else. You can apply this principle in so many ways too! Anything that we as humans try to suppress, deny, and shame ourselves out of will only get stronger and more out of control. Suppressed sexuality certainly does not lead to abstinence, and it does lead to the exact opposite, which is out of control sexuality which Kwaku describes he sees among church members.

@FooWifeX

4 ай бұрын

^^^this!!!!!

He will not be a Mormon forever.

@mylesmarkson1686

4 ай бұрын

Oh, he's so high on himself that I'm sure he'll start his own version of Mormonism someday.