Thank you for making these excellent videos. Well done sir!

The glovebox pin is so they can’t steal your Tesla cam hard drive, which is now safe in the glovebox. Also you can remove the pin in settings.

@sambira

2 жыл бұрын

@jerry calvert Hmmm, I'd like to see that.

@Thawhid

2 жыл бұрын

@jerry calvert hmmmm sure

@Yumemaru.

2 жыл бұрын

@jerry calvert ok

@modlife

2 жыл бұрын

It’s also handy for police without a warrant ;-)

@modlife

2 жыл бұрын

@jerry calvert 1.9seconds… very little plastic. You sound like a jealous little troll.

You totally screwed with my head using the opposite colors of the cars for your graphs.

You don't need a pin to open the glove box. There is a setting that someone must have activated.

@Kmelnuk1

2 жыл бұрын

Definitely a setting

@DanyCervantes

2 жыл бұрын

I believe that you could also ask the voice assistant.

@Johnny2Feathers

2 жыл бұрын

How does he not know this 🤦🏿

@TenTuber645

2 жыл бұрын

Fk of fanboi

@rogerstarkey5390

2 жыл бұрын

@@TenTuber645 Activate voice control (button) "Open glove box"

It didn't lose a trunk pocket the premium sound woofer has always lived there

@TurboNFRStwoK

2 жыл бұрын

Was coming on here just to say that. For a reviewer/owner I can’t believe how much he doesn’t know about the car.

Press the button and say "open glovebox"? Why would you go to the menu?

@ThreePuttBogeys88

2 жыл бұрын

PIN can also be deactivated

No Banana Box test? Might want to ship the plaid over to Bjørn Nyland. That is the gold standard for cargo space testing.

Press and hold the hidden buttons near the Hazard button and the "Drive, Revers" will activate!

Why the music when you had people in for a test run? The noise people make when they ride it is 50% of the fun.

Personally, I like the interior of the old Model S. Its packs plenty of innovation and future-proofing, while not being obnoxious and counter productive. The only thing I like better about the new S is the ventilated seats and the improved rear seat experience. Ventilated seats are awesome for long road trips, especially for a sweat towel like me. The rear seat, however, having a dedicated infotainment screen, improved comfort, and a damned armrest, makes it a much more comfortable experience for those aforementioned road trips. However, if I had to choose one, I would still chose the old S. The updates, in my opinion, are not worth the drastic price increase, and I personally despise the redesign of the vehicle controls.

Very informative video. Personally, I don’t consider the absence of turn signal stalks and gear selection buttons “quirky little things.” In general I would say that in the Plaid Tesla has allowed engineering to get ahead of consumer preferences for function. But since the Plaid is likely going to be a niche product these issues are not really important. If I had an extra hundred $130,000 lying around I buy your used model S and a Model 3. As it is, $50,000-$60,000 is still a bit outside my target range for an EV.

I have a 2014 model S Performance - And I have to say that I am still very satiesfied w. it, perhaps even more satisfied the longer time I have had it (!). Really appreciate what is said in the start of the video: that Tesla does not constantly update' the look - So I'm not embarrassed when I drive up to one of the many Tesla Super-Chargers and feel that I have to go buy a new version. Over the years I have saved up so financially I'm ready to buy the Plaid or the Long Range 2021-model. However... I'm hesitant, since I still feel that the car more than satiefies my needs - and looking to Mercedes and Bmw etc. its still feels superior in tech, acceleration etc. And yes, having free charging anywhere; I am reluctant to let go of that :- ) Btw. I am by far not a 'rich guy'. Many people seem to think that you have to be rich to afford the top model Tesla's. Not so. To me its priority; I have a small appartment, low daily expenses, no loans (never had) and have my own little business the last 10years. Here in Denmark education at University, health-services etc. is free so I'ts not a big problem to save up the 110-140 00usd. to buy a new Tesla - if - you are carefull w. your daily economy each year. I guess this goes for most people in most countries. So save up - and Enjoy a Tesla - I guarantee its an experiense like no other car you've had. (I used to like fast sportcars, but just once in a Tesla P-model... and I'm not having more of those 'slow & noicy' polluters). Greetings from Denmark!

@johnj8069

2 жыл бұрын

I find it crazy to spend $100k on a car unless you have at least a couple of houses paid off, other investments and at least 8 figures net worth...

@brenthandel7747

2 жыл бұрын

I am in the same situation with a 2015 Model S that I am still very happy with so am thinking of cancelling my LR order; at least until full self driving actually allows me to read a book while I commute, then I would have a big reason to upgrade.

@xyzxyz6406

Жыл бұрын

I have a 2014 model s 85 RWD and feel like a million bucks pulling up to a charging station. I put really nice turbine 21" rims on it and have made it look really good. Only I know it was bought used for $29,000. I only have 89,000 miles on it and the battery in engineered to go between 300,000 and 500,000 miles and once it dies I'll just put another battery in it and essentially have a new Tesla. I could upgrade to a newer year and model but don't really see the point since they're all pretty much the same inside and out and I don't really care about having AWD or self driving or more power. I can go 0-60 in less than 5 seconds so that's plenty power for me especially when I blow by every other car on the road, except for another Tesla of Corse 😁😁😁

It’s awesome to see content from ya again brotha! I love the plaid but I’d recommend the 90k Long Range S. Same car inside and out aside from dual motor v tri and 40k cheaper haha. But those plaid reactions are priceless 🤣

@CYBRLFT

2 жыл бұрын

@@4literv6 Yes to brakes, battery and suspension. Carbon sleeved rotors in the motor I do not know but same thermal management system and absolutely same exterior and interior design. The only way to tell if one is LR is it will not say Plaid on the hatch and doesn’t come with the carbon spoiler. Of course one could get rid of that to make it more of a sleeper plaid but then on the peddle/controls menu the LR says Insane instead of Plaid. And it is insane lol that thing feels way more intense than the old performance models as a LR. Absolutely a fantastic value when comparing against the expense of the Plaid. Speculation alert 🚨: I would not be surprised if it’s the same motor design too just one less. Tesla likes to streamline production and would much more likely stick to one improved motor design rather than have a unique one for the LR model and add that unnecessary complexity to the production line. But again that’s just me speculating there. I don’t have any privileged knowledge on that.

@ayushmalpeddi2793

2 жыл бұрын

@@CYBRLFT I'm like 98% sure they are the same motor. The new non-Plaid Model S dusts ever single Tesla made to date after 60-80mph. It may launch slightly softer, but it pulls harder than any other electric car (including Taycan, Etron, 2020 model s performance) made to date.

Excellent video that points out the features of both models except a huge one that was left out is the the 2017 has a huge automatic sunroof verses the Plaid that only has a full glass roof that is heavily tinted make it not as functional as a traditional sunroof. I will continue to drive my 2017 that has 100,000 miles and drives like new!

Great video Ben, so good to see you back in action with Tesla reviews!

Ben Swolens is back boys!

I have a 2017 Tesla Model S 75D with 60,000 miles, which I love. To me the only drawbacks with the car are 1) the current range at 100% is 250 miles 2) the charging speed as you stated is quite slow 45 minutes to charge from 50-100% at the super charger today. I was very exited about the Model S Plaid Plus stated range at 520 miles which was cancelled, but the 405 mile range of the LR is not shabby. The faster charging speed of the LR is also exciting to me. Trading up to the Model S LR would be desirable except for 1) the price with tax and license would be around $100,000 US 2) my trade in would be only around $30,000 meaning I still have to cough up $70,000 3) I really dislike the yoke, lack of gear shift, turn signal and auto pilot levers. Unfortunately the cons out weigh the pros for upgrading to the Model S LR. I am keeping an eye on the release and pricing of the new Michelin Pilot Sport EV tires which are advertised to increase range up to 37 miles. They might be worth the higher price when I need to replace my current tires.

I was surprised to see that my 2017 MS90D hit 159kW at a V3 station last week. Thats the fastest charge rate that I have ever experienced. Not bad for a 4+year old. 100% battery is still 280 after 21k mostly roadtrip miles. I charge at superchargers primarily. The car is not daily driven.

Love your videos, but you should remind viewers that you can control most things on the screen with voice commands. There is over 180 different voice commands available including "set temperature to xx degrees' and 'open glovebox."

The cream interior looks so good! This is the first Refreshed Model S that I have seen with this interior color. I would Choose white on the outside making good contrast with the black trims and cream on the inside and it sure does look great. Thanks mahn for this comparison

The 2016 update to the model s was more than just a front bumper change. There were many off-the-shelf high-voltage components used before 2016. Test the redesigned a lot of these and gain quite a bit of efficiency from changing them to their own design

Finally a review which doesn't just fixate on acceleration. By now we all know that the Plaid is stupid quick in a straight line, but there is a lot more to a car purchase for most of us, since most of us don't go to the drag strip every weekend. If I were a die-hard Tesla guy, I'd probably opt for a new long range Model S rather than the Plaid.

@gracesylee5916

2 жыл бұрын

the long range actually handles better

@Daniel-tx2vt

2 жыл бұрын

@@gracesylee5916 is that because the steering wheel > yolk or for some other reason?

@scottbreseke716

2 жыл бұрын

@@Daniel-tx2vt The weight of the third motor.

Advantages no one talks about the 2017 generation Model S: 1. No cabin camera snooping on you. The steering wheel nag is more than enough. 2. You can still operate the car even while the infotainment is rebooting.

The fastest car in terms of 0-60 is the Rimac Nevera. (currently)

The PIN entry is optional. It's probably set on this car because it's being used by multiple people. When you have it set up as a personal vehicle entering the PIN to drive or open your glovebox is unnecessary.

@Runescapian0wner

Жыл бұрын

Pin to drive most likely was set to prevent thieves from stealing the vehicle. You would still need a key to drive the car, pin to drive is only there as an added extra security.

Just press to talk “open glovebox”. Even easier than pressing a button. That Plaid owner had Glovebox PIN on - Which normally if not, would have just opened on the first press. Straight up, can’t remember the last time I opened my glovebox… Enjoyed the video otherwise!

@dyemanoz

2 жыл бұрын

Yep - glovebox control exactly the same as the Model 3/Y (including PIN for valet mode)

@TheSteinbitt

2 жыл бұрын

You really feel like pressing a button, waiting a second for voice control to activate, and then saying in a clear voice with good diction: “open glovebox” is easier than pressing a button? Am I missing something?

@22MLocke

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheSteinbitt It may not be as easy, but it is surely easy enough. Much like many tech devices over time, buttons have been replaced with screen landscape. My iPhone does not have a button for everything I have stored on it… but can get to anything I need in a couple clicks.

@TheSteinbitt

2 жыл бұрын

@@22MLocke It’s called innovation when it betters or simplifies, it’s called cost cutting when it doesn’t. iPhone didn’t become harder to use without a button, now it’s just a swipe.

@wraith0072

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheSteinbitt lol people just love to complain, y'all acting as if using a voice command or 2-3 clicks is the end of the world. How often does the average person even need to open the glovebox on the day to day for it to matter? Last time I even opened mine was months ago to put in my new insurance papers.

Thanks Ben you do an outstanding job with your reviews. You are one of my favorite You Tubers! I think people are making too much of the minimalistic design. I like the fact there are not stocks and that the clutter has been removed from the driving compartment. Now if I can get my wife to buy into purchasing the Plaid. She has been a tough sale. I have a few more weeks before our Y Performance arrives. Our local Tesla facility has a few new Plaids in stock.

Great review, Ben ! One thing, it would make sense to compare it to the LR version.

Good to see you putting out content there Benny boy, LOL. Love your stuff!

If Doug Demuro is smart, he should trademark "quirks and features", if he hasn't already.

Would be great to do a comparison of the exterior lights as well. I’m sure the front fog lights is a major difference. And apparently the rear lights is more brighter and a little bit reshaped as well as the front lights. Please do a night version. Thank you.

I would just upgrade the bumper, fog lighting, chrome delete and wheels. I would try to find as much of this stuff from copart or something like that where it wouldn’t cost me full price n I would upgrade the older car n be cool with that. In my area the plaid is only going for $120k. I have been considering it but this or the 2018 p100d at a great price low miles wouldn’t be bad either. Great video.

13:23 hi Ben👋 they become available when for some reason the central display stops working! this is an alternative option for switching traffic directions! check engine mode

The Glove Password could be very very useful I didn't actually think of it that way. You can keep documents and files there and don't have to worry about ppl getting into it without your permission that's smart not gonna lie

I can't remember the last time I had anybody in my back seat. That being said, I'm glad kids or whomever will be entertained instead of having to look out over this great country of ours while driving from coast to coast. Seriously though I really like the Model S and wish I could afford one but the Plaid is ridiculous and I'd opt for a standard LR if I could pay for it. As the prices shoot up weekly now even a MY or M3 is out of my reach.

Should have compared the longe range new version, better match up.

model s long range best model s for the money if u dont need 0-60 in 2,1 sec ^^

@MrRyanDevo

2 жыл бұрын

But I definitely need the 0-60 in 2.1 seconds…love it and nothing compares to it. Huge and fun rush that never gets old.

@thedumbconspirator4956

2 жыл бұрын

That's true. Model s LR is a more sensible purchase, but if you wanna have fun, plaids the way to go

How does it differs in driving comfort/dynamics?

Great review. I really felt like I was in the same mind set of the plaid. I have the model Y and wanted the model S 2016 90D also. And I just loved your video. I’m saving up for the plaid and hope to buy it by then end of the year. So that should be fun. I really wanted to see the red vs white colors in the sun. I’m torn between the two and I really want the white but the red is just so inviting. Would you say the white car stays cooler than the red or it really doesn’t matter? Like 6 degrees difference? Anyhow. Again, great post and I like your style. Congrats on the plaid.

Argument could be made with any car. New vs Used is usually a 50% price dif. 2017 car is 5 years old! You could also get the Long Range model which is $20 k cheaper.

I think some of the choices/changes made that you consider somewhat pointless have reasoning behind it. The rear storage inclining, might be so that there is no longer a hump when the rear seats are down? The glovebox pin (optional), is b/c the USB that stores the videos is in there. That way, say the valet messes up your car, they can't get in and remove that USB drive. I dunno, things like that.

The old model s’s that came with the upgraded sound system also did not have the extra storage room on the right side of the trunk. That’s where the subwoofer was located. If you didn’t have the upgraded sound option then you got the extra storage space.

Ventilated seats is a must. It’s in my 2011 truck. A $250 option.

Thanks Ben. Awesome review

Ben as always excellent video. Also, I tried renting from Turo in Tennessee where I'm from and had a great experience. I will be trying the raffle as well. 🤞

Rear end is new, if you actually measured the dimensions. The rear track is wider and thus so are the rear quarter panels. Fenders flared out.

Great video Ben ! What about a Lucid air "Touring" model vs the Tesla S "Standard" ?

Is the front trunk smaller because of the new heat pump ? I don’t think the 2017 has that?

Great taste in music: Zero7 is timeless.

You missed the backseat wireless chargers in the fold down cebtre part of the seats

3:20 Give an explanation also why that might be the case. As you know, that is a plaid, hence their is an extra motor in the rear axle that might've affected the capacity.

Mate there are quite a few design changes you have not mentioned. The wheel arches for example are more flared in the plaid which is more aesthetic.

Does the Plaid move the passenger seat from the screen or only the driver seat?

Tap voice command > say "open glove box.

I may have to see if anyone in the Nashville TN is offering a demo of that Crazy Plaid 0-60

I'd love a Tesla. They do seem very similar - for some reason I prefer the trunk exterior on the older model. Other than that - the slight upgrades on the newer model are nice other than the steering wheel. If I had a tesla I think the only thing that would make me want an upgrade is 100% self driving everywhere or a significant (not slight) imporovement in battery tech - e.g. twice the range, quick change battery packs.

@aymanshaheen31

Жыл бұрын

I don’t care about looking I care about no one can beat me 😉

The 345 miles is cause of the bigger 21 inch wheels, if you choose the standard 19 inch wheels you should get around 396 miles.

Voice command, “open glovebox” it opens. Easy as that

Awesome vid Ben

I get to do a glovebox pin on my 2016 but the button is still nice

Great review. I think the p100d is much closer in acceleration. Cheers.

Excellent video Ben.

Great review thx! What’s your opinion on the p100d vs the plaid? Value wise and comparison? Seems like I would prefer the regular steering wheel vs the yolk….

@BenSullinsOfficial

2 жыл бұрын

P100d hands down

@mr.tomyum732

2 жыл бұрын

@@BenSullinsOfficial wow really even w the big power difference

Thank you

Is the cost of an ISP to support KZread and Disneyplus included or is there a monthly charge?

Great

I'm scared I won't like the yoke and no stork approach to turn signals and gear selector. Apart from that I love it.

@andrasbiro3007

2 жыл бұрын

You can get used to them fast. It's just like everything else Tesla does, it's scary and seems stupid at first, but then you slowly realize the logic behind it, then you can't live without it anymore.

@ernestt8749

2 жыл бұрын

Model 3 owners like us have bought the aftermarket yoke wheel and we love it.

@Nicholas.T

2 жыл бұрын

@@andrasbiro3007 Is that what you found with your new Model S, Andras? How long did it actually take you to get used to the yoke in your model S? I’m really interested in knowing.

@andrasbiro3007

2 жыл бұрын

@@Nicholas.T Unfortunately I don't have access to one, that's just the experience of many people who own them. And also the general experience with Tesla products.

Your closing statement… A new car buyer isn’t cross shopping a 4 year old car. It’s kind of a weird comparison. Let’s be honest. A new Model 3 Performance is a better buy than a $50-60k 90D.

Did Tesla activate the noise cancellation feature?

Does having the fsd computer have any affect on the infotainment speed , for example does KZread load up faster in the cars with fsd computer ? Or the infotainment has its own separate processor ?

@BenSullinsOfficial

2 жыл бұрын

Separate chip

You might say that they haven't gone crazy and put an unnecessary pin to open the glove box. They use that as a security measure for the memory stick which is inside.

Does the 2017 have voice control.

I have a 2019 Model S. My car, and the 2017, both have something else that the 2021 Model S and Model S Plaid do not have: Free lifetime supercharging. Regarding the new Model S, Tesla made a big mistake by not including customers in some of the design decisions. Buttons are really nice for some things.

The side pockets got smaller because of the bigger exhaust. 🤠 When you walked around the body you failed to mention the widened fender arches 🤦‍♂️

Is there any difference in ride quality and road noise?

Hey Ben.. have you plugged your 2017 S into a version 3 supercharger? I was getting just shy of 200 kW peak rate. Something like 193 I remember. I was surprised as hell. But mine's a 2017 too.. and it's definitely not capped at 150 like I thought, and like you mentioned here

@BenSullinsOfficial

2 жыл бұрын

Last time I tried this I briefly got over 150 but then it quickly dropped back down. That's good to hear tho!

Ben, you are the most genuine nice guy. I love watching your videos. It makes my day (kinda) when I get a pop-up saying there's a new video from you. But Ben, you've been around long enough to know how to edit a video - and that's why I stopped watching @8:36 - and that's when I hit the thumbs down button. Hopefully you'll get the audio right in the next video, but I'm not going to watch the rest of this one. While I'm bitching... Please put together OLF again... maybe invite Scott Manley, or, for a slightly mature audience, check out Sean M. Carrol (Mindscape) and get him on board. I'm so pissed off with Tim Dodd, I won't watch his videos anymore. I truly enjoyed watching OLF, and I especially liked the bit towards the end where you'd all tell us about your upcoming videos. I DEMAND you start OLF again! Pretty please :D

I'm 6"2 it's almost impossible to get in & out of the car without my head hitting the roof. Once in the passenger side my left leg hits the dash. No problem on drivers side. Rear leg room? There isn't any, back seat is a waste of time. How about the A/C is it freezing cold? No it's not and doesn't blow that hard either. How does it ride when hitting the bumps? Not that great for a car that costs $80K. But can't beat the speed. How long will it last without problems? Don't hear much about that.

I believe the price tag is well suited since this car is supposed to be compared with High-end car's like Bugatti

Can you test the Raven versus the non-raven Model S? I'm really curious to see how different the ride is on 19 in rims.

@BenSullinsOfficial

2 жыл бұрын

I've driven both many times, I can't really tell the difference but I'm sure someone out there is raven...about it :)

Cool! Glad you were not that negative about the yoke.. People that got used to it do not have any issue with it (Whole Mars catalog, Omar) But I think Tesla could make the buttons better on the Yoke, like the blinker buttons for left and right are at the same LH side, which is confusing, why not left on the left and right on the right.. easy and intuitive. I think the smart shifter is indeed smart, and easy to override The glove box can also operate without a pin.. In my Model Y it is a tap on the car icon and then a button on the screen, no big deal.. how often you need to be in the glove box? I love the invisible AC vents, it makes the interior so much cleaner. All in all I think the interior has much improved, it looks modern and minimalistic which fits the outside look of the car much better.. I never liked the old model S/X interior, looking old fashionned with all the chrome and wood trims, not fitting the high tech features of the car. But, you are comparing a Plaid with a non performance 2017 Model S, right? The refreshed 'normal' Long Range Model S (still only 3.1 seconds from 0 to 60) is much cheaper, but you get way more range and the new interior and 250Kw charging for about 90K. Than the difference is not that big anymore and may be well worth it for many people.

@andymccabe6712

2 жыл бұрын

STILL can't get my head around why you wouldn't want to just operate a button/lever ON THE GLOVEBOX to open the glove box!!! Any other method of opening just seems pointless, unnecessary, and PERVERSE.....!!??

@MarcoNierop

2 жыл бұрын

@@andymccabe6712 it cleans up the interior, and one more lever that can't get broken bij clumsy humans. Note that Tesla's are designed with getting deployed as Robotaxi in mind. As the Tesla owner you might not want strangers get into your glove box.. with this in mind it makes perfect sense.

I believe you missed the fact that the 2021 Model S Plaid is wider in the front and rear, the wheels 21 x 9.5 front and 21x 10.5 rear and will not fit on the older model S. You can plainly see in the video the difference in the front fenders when standing between them.The cars a body dimensions are not exactly the same, the cars chassis and suspension has been completed revised for the addition of a 3 electric motor. The Plaid is actually radically different and worth upgrading too.

Just ordered a Plaid Model X - will hibernate until April :p

I like both

Ben Sullins has become a used car sales man! The used 2017 Model S is the ticket! The 2022 Plain Model S is overpriced even if it's the fastest production car ever offered to the new car buyer.

The yoke is a way for Tesla to force you to unlock the full autonomous driving option

what is s90d range's rated range as of today ? does the 2017 S90D's have sub-par battery quality compared to other trims ?

@BenSullinsOfficial

2 жыл бұрын

About 250mi top range

I am looking at a 40k 2016 model S with hardware 2.0. I could for 46k get a 2018 model 3 performance WITH FULL FSD. Anyone, which should I get?

Glovebox has a PIN because the sentrycam storage is in there.

I don’t know where your range numbers come from, Ben, but my S-LR 2020 does a real world 360 miles.

@hmuy0608

2 жыл бұрын

EPA range is always a bit over-generous

Why does the seat look like a recipe for back ache? Is it comfortable. I have a really straight back and a big ass.

It is obvious that this review is slanted towards the new car not being a big deal compared to the old car. Regardless of how I feel about the new car, the changes are what they are. For the record, I sold my 2017 Model S and got a Model Y Performance. If I still had my Model S, I would probably buy a new Model S…and I would look into getting a custom steering wheel. I like new stuff, but I am not a fan of the yoke.

@Nicholas.T

2 жыл бұрын

But that’s the difficult part. How do you get an after market circular wheel with the required buttons to duplicate those on the yoke, due to the stalkless design?

@motluv

2 жыл бұрын

@@Nicholas.T I think there will be aftermarket wheels eventually.

@Nicholas.T

2 жыл бұрын

@@motluv All because of the arrogance and hubris of Musk.

@motluv

2 жыл бұрын

@@Nicholas.T I really like Tesla, but they need a grown up CEO.

Welcome back Ben. So out to order a Cybertruck?

Brilliant!

I think the new S long range would make for a better comparison to your 90D

No mention of the flared front arches?

That was a nice tour, thank you. I wonder about the driving experience. The new Model S supposedly is more quiet? The Plaid version is a beast on the track as well. Do you feel that when driving?

@BenSullinsOfficial

2 жыл бұрын

Felt the same to me but I only had it for a day

@mikeorr9533

2 жыл бұрын

Front wheel arches look different. Bigger on the new model

@wilber8260

2 жыл бұрын

Yep. my 2022 MS LR is much quieter than my two prior MSs (2014 and 2016). And, quieter than my M3.

My 2016 MS doesn't have the passenger side trunk storage bin either, it's because of the subwoofer there.

@BenSullinsOfficial

2 жыл бұрын

I'd trade that for a cup holder personally

What about lack of Tesla extended warranty on used cars?

Updated steering wheel with ..... so Cybertruck could be similar?