I went from athiesm into spirituality before finally coming home to Christ. I fell for the original lie that I could be my own god. Thank you Jesus for saving me from that empty practice.

@ShadowQuik

Ай бұрын

Same!

Dr. Ortlund, I want to express my gratitude for the valuable work you do. I'm curious about your perspective on Jordan Peterson's contribution to the spiritual but not religious movement. He often interprets man being made in the image of God as having a spark of the divine, drawing heavily from Nietzsche. Personally, Peterson's work played a significant role in shifting me away from an agnostic/atheist mindset. Through him, I discovered Jonathan Pageau and began exploring Eastern Orthodoxy, ultimately leading me to your channel. Your arguments against the extravagant claims of Orthodoxy have been the most compelling I've encountered, and for that, I'm grateful. An interesting side note is a large amount of Eastern Orthodox theology seems to have been influenced by the spiritual movement referenced in this video. I know you're likely flooded with video ideas, but I believe this topic could benefit many. Jordan Peterson has helped many, including myself, move away from nihilism/atheism. However, if people are moving from atheism to non-religious spirituality, it might seem like a lateral move or even something worse. I'm curious about your thoughts on this and believe they could provide valuable insights for many others like me.

@godsgospelgirl

28 күн бұрын

I would love this too. Jordan Peterson confuses me. He seems such an odd mixture of truth and lies (though I don't think he's lying, just that he believes lies). Add to that his psychological lingo, it's very confusing to know how to make sense of him.

Very important conversation. I think the thing described here isn't just a theory or thing people believe in, but that this is at the very heart of our sinful nature. We want to save ourselves and focus on what is in us, not in the saviour outside of us in heaven. Amen!

Marvelous. Thank you, brother Gavin. Cheers from France. Stay blessed :-)

33:51 "you are not your own, but you were bought with a price". AMEN! I love this quote, because the common answer to the question, "why are you a Christian?" is usually followed by "because I...". Now there isn't anything untruthful in that, I am a Christian because I love Christ is a true statement. But it is also true that I am a Christian because Christ chose me. For me, there is no need to ask the question, "should I follow Christ", because Christ has purchased me with his blood, I am his, so I follow my shephard. What a great relief from such a burden!

Mike Horton is spot on in what is going on esp. among Millennials/Gen Zers as far as pantheism/panentheism. Rationalism/materialism leaves a vacuum and -if not filled with Christianity-it fills with paganism/spiritualism. I applaud Dr. Horton on his insight into what is in mainstream culture. Look at the tv shows, movies with supernatural/gnostic themes, ufo phenomenon, Wicca growth, hallucinogens (DMT/Ayahuasca/shrooms), Burning Man, “Jesus Calling Christianity” (mysticism repackaged), holistic health (yoga/Reiki) , Mother Earth (Gaia) living planet thinking, etc. This is a critical subject that the Christian church has dropped the ball on.

@givenhawk

Ай бұрын

"nature being permeated with divinity" is NOT incongruent with our Faith. life IS sacred and beyond comprehension as the very breath of God indwells us with life and facilitates the presence of the (perpetually) created world. the quarrel should not be with the notion of divinity permeating.... rather, the issue should be with the notion of it being in any way exclusive from the revelation of Christ. the life of the church should be pointing to the rightly ordered context and implications of the aforementioned divinity.

@manager0175

Ай бұрын

@@givenhawk You said: "nature being permeated with divinity" is NOT incongruent with our Faith.". You are correct. The doctrine of imageo dei (image of God) within mankind is certainly a Christian doctrine. John 1:9 "..who was the true light that lighteth every man that enters into the world.." Col 1:15 "Christ is before all things and In Him all things consist.." The mystical has always been part of Christianity. The biggest weakness of Protestantism is the rejection of the mystic traditions. Their discussion about "creator/creation distinction" is also their is too simplistic. Clearly Christ created all things, and is present in all of His creation. Redemption occurs within creation. "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.." "While we were yet sinners Christ died for us.."

Beautiful ending. Thank you, Michael and Gavin!

Loved this interview … I could listen to you two talk for hours!

I've done some work in this area. I'll add some points of my own. In addition to the people who are spiritual in some sense, but aren't affiliated with any organized religion, there are many individuals who profess to be part of an organized religion whose beliefs are largely defined by spiritual views outside of that religious system. So, the beliefs under consideration here have a lot of relevance within organized religion as well. And when you combine the relevant people outside organized religion and the relevant people within organized religion, those people are a much bigger percentage of the population than atheists by an even larger margin. The points Michael and Gavin made about how sinful we are and the problems with autonomy are good ones to bring up. Something else Christians can always bring up when interacting with worldviews competing with Christianity is the evidence for Christianity. If somebody identifies as spiritual, but not religious or holds such views while affiliating with an organized religion, you can ask him how he explains the evidence for Christianity. (That evidence should be presented as a multifaceted network of miracles that outperforms its rivals, like Moses outperforming Pharaoh's magicians and Christ outperforming the Antichrist in Revelation. Think of Peter focusing on Jesus' resurrection in Acts 2, but also mentioning Jesus' earlier miracles, fulfilled prophecy, and apostolic miracles. The cumulative effect should be appealed to rather than just singling out something like Jesus' resurrection. Singling out something like that is a good starting point, but not a good stopping point.) Another issue that should be raised in these contexts is the primacy of God. For all of the talk about love among the spiritual people under consideration here, these people often show a remarkable lack of love for God. Jesus referred to love for God as the greatest commandment. But people often elevate the second commandment above the first one and show little or no concern for the first. Near-death experiences (NDEs), which are highly influential among the sort of spiritual people under consideration, are a good illustration of that tendency. If any God is present in an NDE, he tends to be a deity of a vague nature. NDEs are often cited as evidence for religious pluralism, the unimportance of theological disputes about God, and so on. Yet, one of the aspects of NDEs that people find most appealing is meeting deceased relatives and friends. They wouldn't find so much appeal in meeting strangers during their NDE. They want to be reunited with particular deceased loved ones with particular attributes. Similarly, I doubt that it would go over well if a husband told his wife, "To me, you're just a generic representative of womanhood. I don't care much about your character, your interests, or your experiences. I'd be just as happy married to any other woman." It's even more absurd to take that sort of approach toward God. The people who care so much about the details of the mother or friend who meets them in an NDE shouldn't care so little about the details that make God who he is. One of the ways we can address that problem is by pointing out to people the inconsistency between their lack of concern about God's character and their concern for the character of other people. In other words, bring up their neglect of the first commandment and explain how that conflicts with the concern they profess for the second one. There's a great section in one of John Donne's poems ("A Hymn To Christ") that gets at this issue of not being concerned enough about who God is: Oh, if Thou carest not whom I love, Alas! Thou lovest not me. Something Christians need to get better at when addressing these issues is understanding the explanatory options available for the paranormal phenomena people often cite in these contexts (NDEs, mediumship, apparitions of the dead, etc.). The Christian worldview is wide and deep enough to provide far more options than Christians typically consider. I can't go into many of the details here, but I'll make some summarizing points. Paranormal phenomena can be neutral rather than good or evil. And they can come from sources other than God, angels, and demons. Living humans can have paranormal capacities, and so can deceased humans. And there can be, and surely are, some beings whose existence we don't know about. The source of something paranormal doesn't even have to be personal (e.g., place memories, stone tape phenomena). Even if something paranormal seems to be evil, we shouldn't assume that it's demonic. The demonic hypothesis is one of the explanatory options on the table, but much of what goes on in paranormal contexts is better explained by human paranormal activity, an impersonal source, or something else other than demons. Christians have a bad reputation for being too dependent on the demonic hypothesis, and we deserve that reputation, unfortunately. The fact that some people give too little attention to the possibility of demonic activity doesn't justify giving too much attention to it, as Christians frequently do. A lot more could be said, but I'll leave it at that.

@JohnSmith-zs1bf

Ай бұрын

I would also add that Christianity and the Bible account for all these other deceptive spiritual practices and other gods of the world religions. A common retort is "why your God and not the other 100s of gods". That's all accounted for. Michael Heiser does a great job highlighting these practices and where they came from (the watchers)

@derrickbonsell

Ай бұрын

There is a huge problem with this in the Roman Catholic Church, which makes the claim by the trads that Rome prevents error ring hollow.

@rebekahchalkley3252

Ай бұрын

Fascinating comment, Jason. I wish you had a KZread channel with a video going into depth on these matters. Even if you just read your triablogue entries aloud, that would be a valuable channel.

@givenhawk

Ай бұрын

"nature being permeated with divinity" is NOT incongruent with our Faith. life IS sacred and beyond comprehension as the very breath of God indwells us with life and facilitates the presence of the (perpetually) created world. the quarrel should not be with the notion of divinity permeating.... rather, the issue should be with the notion of it being in any way exclusive from the revelation of Christ. the life of the church should be pointing to the rightly ordered context and implications of the aforementioned divinity.

Would love to hear his take on how Orthodox spirituality fits into the spectrum of spirituality he describes, and more on monasticism.

@givenhawk

Ай бұрын

"nature being permeated with divinity" is NOT incongruent with our Faith. life IS sacred and beyond comprehension as the very breath of God indwells us with life and facilitates the presence of the (perpetually) created world. the quarrel should not be with the notion of divinity permeating.... rather, the issue should be with the notion of it being in any way exclusive from the revelation of Christ. the life of the church should be pointing to the rightly ordered context and implications of the aforementioned divinity.

@cassidyanderson3722

Ай бұрын

I’m interested in hearing what he thinks about theosis (I believe they have something called “union with Christ” that is somewhat comparable).

Thank you, Dr.s Ortlund and Horton for taking the time for this. May I note, it is also quite a splendid thing to say your respective surnames in procession of eachother like that. Always Mike Horton's!

This is incredibly important work.

Love this topic and Gavin your a really good interviewer. I hope you do many of these.

Respectfully, outside of reading the book I’m not sure this was a great articulation of spirituality. It may be helpful to have someone on to also give the side of Christian mysticism that has been a longstanding tradition in the church since the beginning. Seems there’s a little bit of throwing the baby out with the bath water going on IMO. Thanks for the vid Dr. Ortlund.

@endlessnameless7004

Ай бұрын

I got the sense that the entire bathtub was thrown out.

@tookie36

Ай бұрын

@@endlessnameless7004100%

@manager0175

Ай бұрын

@@endlessnameless7004 This entire video is way to simplistic from beginning to end. Even his quote from Bultmann was taken far out of context.

@jakewhennessy

29 күн бұрын

Horton is my professor right now in seminary. He elaborates a whole lot more in class and provides loads of evidence for any subsequent conclusions. Obviously not everything could be addressed in the video here.

Yeah I’d say it’s definitely dangerous. My buddy is “spiritual” and when another buddy joked about me being a Christian the other day (not in a mean way) my other buddy said something like “hey don’t he’s finding his spirituality” or something like that. The joke didn’t bother me at all, but that did. Because I know what he means and it’s not The Truth in Jesus. He has been into new age spirituality and crystals so I’m looking forward to watching this video later! Hopefully It can help me talk to him and try and spread the Good News to him. My other buddy that joked with me is easier to talk to about this stuff, but even with him I could use some help. Don’t want to jam it down their throats after all. lol I appreciate you Gavin! You are my true brother in Christ and have helped me greatly! 🙏✝️🙏

There is a lot right, but also a lot wrong, and a lot left missing from this one. Whenever one group is winning converts from your own group, it is right to focus on what that other group gets wrong, but you also have to ask the question "what is that other group doing right, that I am currently failing at?". I didn't see that question get addressed. Dr. Horton seemed to overly demonize the internal subjective religious experience and label it as something like "anabaptist excess" or "axial age magic" or something. If you can't acknowledge the truth inside subjective religious experience, then don't be surprised if you lose your flock to someone who does.

@WhiteStoneName

Ай бұрын

31:15 on Liberalism disencchanting and radical pietism vs. lutheran/reformed. "They turned inward, not to the external Jesus of history, but to 'Christ in me'..." Hmmmmm.

@EnglishMike

Ай бұрын

I know. The idea of connecting the non-religious people's beliefs with movements that happened thousands of years ago seems little more than an academic exercise by an academic. Most non-religious people simply don't think about religion and spiritualism hardly at all. They're secular people who have rejected Christian (for a variety or reasons) but who see agnosticism and atheism as a step too far. They still believe there is more to life/existence than the natural world. They just don't worry about what it might be exactly most of the time.

@andrew_blank

10 күн бұрын

I could be way off base in some of my understandings of things, but to me an irony of coming at things in the way Dr. Horton does is precisely this discounting of experience. If we can entirely detach or abstract away the claims made about God and the world, which cannot be brought back into or reconciled with our experience of the world in any way so as to make them relatable and not absurd, then what is it that one could not be convinced of. One’s only recourse in thinking this way is to blindly trust those over you (and oh btw aren’t we just so lucky to have landed in God’s good graces ohappening to find ourselves situated in the world where we’re at at this particular point in time while some poor sap halfway around the world operating in this same frame of mind couldn’t possibly come to know Truth). And then you can say but God opens up the heart (speaking of “magic”) with common vs special grace and all of that. Some folks been on a plane ride at 39,000ft for a long time never quite getting back to the ground. This disembodied projection seems to be running its course.

This was a great episode!

Great topic. There are so many different obstacles that I face as a single mom. Some days I want to give up. God give me strength. I’m struggling to make ends meet. Both of my sons are special needs and require much from me. I keep faith because I know that God will provide. So as I struggle to buy groceries for my children, and as I struggle to pay rent every month. I turn to you Lord Jesus help me. Amen 💕

@pearlrim

8 күн бұрын

Thinking of you; you are very strong and deserving of Gods love and help. Keep going. :)

Dr. Ortlund, my succinct response to this whole video would be “receive with meekness the implanted Word, which is able to save your souls”

My wife got into spiritualism and new age stuff, thankfully she has come back to Christ. She was believing that God the Father was really Enki, and the devil was Enlil. That Yahweh in the OT was actually Enlil and the Bible had been corrupted by him. There was also Source, which could be God the Father, but also could be the actual supreme intelligence. It depended who was talking. Some things happened and she finally realized that Enki, who she believed she was communicating with, was not actually God the Father. My best friend is an atheist and we had this exact conversation when she was into all of it. I told him that Spiritualism is more dangerous than Atheism. A lot of spiritualism involves the idea that we are all gods, it's very gnostic. That was the exact thing Satan deceived Eve with. The original deception was not to cast aside all belief in God, it was the temptation to be God or be higher than God.

@samuelblackmon

Ай бұрын

What gets one out of such beliefs?

@thadofalltrades

Ай бұрын

@@samuelblackmon there was very little I could do to reason with her. She had an experience that scared her and she started to question the source. She was going to leave me and everything.

@samuelblackmon

Ай бұрын

@@thadofalltrades these ideas are often so nebulous that there are no reasons to engage with. Thank you for sharing and sorry you and your wife had to go through all of that. Hopefully this experience can be valuable for others in the future.

@thadofalltrades

Ай бұрын

@@samuelblackmon the best we can do is pray for them, love them, and speak truth into their worldview when appropriate.

These videos always make my day

Really enjoyed this discussion! Really important to keep in mind that most of our evangelism goes toward atheists, but such a small percentage of people are full-on atheists. We need to direct more attention toward this New Age spirituality.

Great talk

You should REALLY make a video on the Waldesians! Edit: just found the video that you made on it. 😂

Witchcraft is having a huge resurgence. I work in a high school and most my students use healing/power crystals, Eye-beads and some wear astrology shirts. Also if you've been to stores like TJ Max or Ross/Target all of them sell crystals. some of them sell Terot card (play sets) in the kids section. it amazes me how far our culture is down that road

@EnglishMike

Ай бұрын

You know none of this is actually real right? It's all hokum and nonsense being capitalized on by our capitalist system.

Sages, shaman, magic, and pantheistic ideas of the past were strongly embedded in specific cultural contexts. The 'spirituality' of today, however, is born out of modernist individualism, the rejection of received tradition and community accountability in favor of choosing ideas and practices which appeal to the person's desire for freedom, power, and individual identity. One appropriates the specific concepts and practices in the same way one purchases clothing, as a consumer. Things can be put on and thrown off as one wishes. This is quite different from the kind of commitment required to follow the Lord Jesus. To be his disciple, one must deny self, count as dead the past life, and be conformed in all things to his image. Fortunately, he has sent the Spirit of truth to comfort us and empower living that new life. Part of living that new life is being in community with others and being accountable within that community.

39:15 on this "deep down" person inside that is the problem... How does this exist? What is the basis/origin of its existence? Who created this will that is evil or bad or divided? Edit below. 42:15 The God who is "outside of you" LOVES you. Who is the "you"? Isn't that the evil thing talked about at 39:15. Why would God love evil? To redeem it? Purify it? Into what? Something else? Himself? Are we then pantheists? All that ultimately exists is God? I honestly don't know what you guys are talking about.

Wait a second. 29:34 It's the other way around. Because we focus all our spirituality on one thing, we become more gnostic/utopian. I don't know how or why at all you would think any other way. You said yourself that medieval Catholicism was more locative. You formulate a very good framework of thinking that helps me formulate my thoughts and reaffirms those, but sometimes you don't make any sense...

Christian mystics like Julian of Norwhich, St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the cross have deeply enriched my orthodoxy as well as put at bay the fear we have to throw the baby out with the bath water. We need healthy Christianity with a healthy spirituality. If we continue to reduce Christianity to what we believe in our heads and do not move to the salvation of the whole person as Christ did, we will continue to just play to our base and maintain fear based religion. Thank you for the video. Love the channel.

The irony is that Christianity allows for more of a naturalistic conception of the universe than believing in some kind of universal spirit. The belief in karma is a common example of beliefs that have cropped up to fill the gap left by the decline in Christianity.

True. I tend to find that when people say they are spiritual but not religious they are believing in a god that looks a lot like themselves.

Major "hook" concepts that can lead from scientific atheism to "spritual but not religious:" vibrations, frequencies, light, chakras, chi, yin/yang (balance = no absolutes), prana, string theory, quantum mechanics, and sexual freedom. Also, Hindus claim that Jesus acquired His powers by studying with their mystics. Mix these with the "divine spark" and anyone can have their unique "smõrgåsbord spiritualism!" Perfect for today's self centered society. I thank God for drawing me to Jesus back in 1985!🙋🏼‍♂️🙏📖Thank you for this video.🎯😎👍

I’m sure this will be considered the “epitome of hyperbole” -Brian Regan… but I believe this is THE MOST important issue facing the church in the West today. I have been tremendously blessed by this conversation and it has put words to what I’ve been intuiting for years, after serving on the mission field in East Africa for over a decade and retuning to the United States in 2020. Thank you and God bless you for this!

Michael Horton is awesome!

Dr. Horton was one of my favorite Profs. I am sad to see that he changed his name to Leslie Wilson:)

"What a good God has us!"

Hemispheres by Rush is a concept album based upon the Apollo and Dionysius narrative

Horton refers to the "God within us..." in a negative sense. However, there is a great deal of biblical support for this. "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (John 1:9). And He before all things and in Him all things consist." Col 1:17. "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him." Eph 1:10 There is clearly a notion of Christ's immanence in all of His creation in scripture.

Why is Michael Horton called Leslie Wilson in your streaming platform?

I watched three full times. I replayed 32:50 forward many more times. I kept thinking of what I heard in the most recent flood movie “The Ark and the Darkness”…to understand the gospel you must first understand the flood. Who God is, what righteousness and unrighteousness mean and what the past and future consequences were and will be, how powerful God is, how serious sin is…then the gospel is good news. If the church, in trying to evangelize, doesn’t ensure an understanding of the flood first, then the good news of Christ is very difficult to appreciate. I could be totally incorrect, but that’s my ongoing opinion. We need to also ramp up social media, influencers, apps, etc because social media is the way to spread the good news (having first ensured an understanding of God and righteousness)…in my opinion :)

So this is where Gavin went after his appearance in capturing Christianity

@TruthUnites

Ай бұрын

haha, yep

Hi Gavin, I've really enjoyed watching your videos after discovering your channel over the last few months. If you end up reading this I would really appreciate your response to secular claims about the origin of the judeo-christian God. I've read several takes about how Yahweh in the Old testament was just one of many (little-g) gods that were worshipped in the ancient Middle East and that Hebrew monotheism was just a cultural development that happened sometimes after 2000BC.

Since when does Christianity teach that there is nothing divine within us or that there is nothing divine about humanity? Is the image of God not divine? Is God's breathe within Adam, and thereafter all mankind, not divine in some way? Even more so, when Christians receive the holy spirit is that not the divine within us? Do not we look forward to the day when Christians will be made fully divine participating fully in God's nature in the age to come? Has not this process already begun and do we not have the earnest money of this already? Dr. Horton's complete separation between the divine and the human seems to be completely unchristian as far as I can tell.

@carolm753

Ай бұрын

Arguing the limits on the concept of “imago dei” seems a little… presumptuous. What Genesis 1 says is highly “spiritual,” unclear, unorthodox, cannot be mapped or prescribed, to be honest. It is a SPIRITUAL teaching of human nature that is profoundly inspiring and mysterious. To me, the key to understanding what Dr Horton is saying is that, “separation from God/the divine” is the essential prerequisite problem. In other words, some level of separation has to exist for salvation to make sense. This is messy and unclear. But leaning on the side of separation is key for salvation to be considered necessary in more traditional thought. “Image of God” being unclearly synonymous/linked with human beings is too messy, ambiguous, and perhaps too “spiritual”.

What they're discussing is one reason I had to leave the 12-step community. I couldn't keep telling my sponsees that there were many ways to God.

Powerful interview

second viewing as so worthwhile

At least the person is seeking. Best to sow seeds and walk away. Be the best imago dei you can be. Shalom

@carolm753

Ай бұрын

🎉 yes

I was 100% in agreement with Dr Horton until he said we have no other means of grace besides the preaching of the word, baptism and the Lord's Supper. Can someone shed some light on why he left out prayer? Can’t food and sleep be means of grace as well (Elijah in 1 Kings 19) Is there a more technical sense in which he is using the term ‘means of grace’? There might be people who will hear this and feel discouraged from praying. Still, thinking about the clear distinction between Creator and created (since watching this a few days ago) has made me even more aware of the immanence of God. The metaphor I’m finding helpful right now is the relationship between Author and Character. Shakespeare was deeply and intimately present in every detail of Macbeth’s life.

43:04 "Look a 'Christ in me' cannot save me." Wow. I think this is completely antithetical to the doctrine of the Incarnation. How does this match to Colossians 1 - The Whole Mystery of Christ?

@EnglishMike

Ай бұрын

It's also a gross representation of what most progressive Christians believe. But that's not surprising from a pair of conservative apologists. I am no longer a Christian, but I grew up in a progressive Christian church and if what they have isn't real Christianity vs. the nonsense I see from the Christian right in the US, then I really don't know what is. By their fruits, etc.

I went from Christianity (Baptist) to new age, and by the GRACE of God, back to Christianity. I am so grateful to now be born again, and in Christ. But yes, I agree Gavin with your guest that the more we move away from the church, the more we become entranced by the new age. It is a DECEPTION from Satan. I pray for friends who are still being led away from the true light (Jesus) into the false light, Satan. Thank you for discussing this.

That's a lot of books behind Michael Horton

This is so interesting to me. When is was 15 years old my mother came out as a lesbian and simultaneously became a very staunch atheist, liberal, and feminist. That was around 2013. She is now a practicing witch. She has a wand, casts spells, and has adopted a lot of pagan philosophy. But she still somehow identifies herself as an atheist. She is very hostile toward Christianity and Christians. Please pray for her salvation. ✝️

34:00 This section on autonomy doesn't make any sense to me. I'd really like Horton to talk about the ontology of "self" vs the ontology of this 'outside of me God' that he keeps promoting. This is all Chalcedonian stuff, which he seems to presume without articulating and seeming surprised that other people have other thoughts. Here's a quote: "Without knowledge of self, there is no knowledge of God. Our wisdom, insofar as it ought to be deemed true and solid wisdom, consists almost entirely of two parts: the knowledge of God and of ourselves. But as these are connected by many ties, it is not easy to determine which of the two precedes and gives birth to the other." - John Calvin This is an honest wrestling with the God-Man distinction. I would love Horton or you, Dr. Ortlund to articulate where you sit in regard to the Chalcedonian positions of articulating the Incarnation (which is also the ontology and ultimate anthropology of all living human beings, no?) Mono(mia)physitism? Dyophysitism? Some neo-chalcedonian form? Jesus Christ the God-Man had two natures? one? What do we have? As far as I can see, there are always three options when it comes to ontology (which really collapse into one...and then there are semantic preferences for talking about the remaining one): Static Monism Dualism ...Relational Ontology

@EnglishMike

Ай бұрын

And it's all philosophical gobble-de-gook to the non-religious folk they are talking about. I fail to see how any of this is going to me a jot of difference when it comes to halting the US trend away from Christianity.

The God(s) saved me and we must do what He/She/They say isn't new either.

Nature being “divine” doesn’t just mean that there is no God. Christians seriously LOVE exclusivity.

Herman's Hermits. But few are called to it. A larger percentage is called to monasticism. Again, not a majority.

What Horton is referring to is the 6th-century divine providence. o ~530-520BC: Ezra rewrites the Old Testament during the exile o ~530-500BC: Confucious teaches ethics and morality in the social relationship o ~530-520BC: The birth of Greek Philosophy o ~530-500BC: The birth of Buddhism What all great religions share is strong ethics and morality. Hinduism does not have strong ethical ancient written works like Buddhism does. Descendents of these teachings dominate the world through continual oral and written works. The lesson is the importance to humanity in trying to understand "good and evil".

Zoroastrianism was a monotheistic religion that heavily influenced Judaism and our idea of final judgment and immortality of souls. Cyrus the Great (Zoroastrian guy) is referred to as Messiah by Isaiah.

@manager0175

Ай бұрын

You are correct. The 3 wise men were most likely Zoroastrian. The Bible (OT and NT) borrowed heavily from fertility cults and pagan religions they encountered.

I have to say that I hear this line all the time from Baptists and Evangelicals in particular: "Religion doesn't save you." Even when adding the rest of that quote, the proposition becomes a non-sequitor. If religion doesn't save me, why bother with a relationship with Christ? Evangelicals try to qualify this by saying that it's not "works" that save you but then they go on asking you to recite a prayer, get baptized, go to church, read the Bible, pray for others, join a ministry and try not to sin but if you do you can ask for forgiveness; all in the name of and for God. Sounds like a religion to me. Why not simply be "spiritual" since "religion doesn't save you?"

Praise Amaterasu ⛩️

O my this issue effects all Christian traditions

Bavinck, Van Til and Schaeffer have entered the chat. “The religious craving at present asserting itself bears a pronouncedly egoistic character; it reveals a longing rather for self-satisfaction than for knowledge and service of the living God; it seeks God not above the world but in the world and regards his essence as identical with that of the creature. All of which goes to show that the worldview, which formerly offered itself under the name of “the scientific” (wetenschap) has not essentially changed but has simply, owing to various influences assumed now a religious form and taken up its position as a new faith over against the old faith.” - Herman Bavinck in “Philosophy of Revelation” 1908- Stone Lectures at Princeton Theological Seminary

@D.E.Metcalf

17 күн бұрын

11:50 “Axial age” Charles Taylor also entered the chat.

@D.E.Metcalf

17 күн бұрын

26:06 Lewis entered the chat, then left. kzread.info/dash/bejne/k451uqSnctOfmbw.htmlsi=EVi0LfQhYVIkt-Dp start at 1 hour and 3 minute mark

@D.E.Metcalf

17 күн бұрын

30:26 Bavinck commented “vestiges of God”

@D.E.Metcalf

17 күн бұрын

32:53 Van Til comments “The imago dei as the point of contact” Bavinck would add, “the sense of dependence”

@D.E.Metcalf

17 күн бұрын

37:23 “sheer otherness” Van Til and Schaeffer both comment “Barthianism”

I live 2 miles away from wesminster Escondido all these years listening to Julius Kim guest lecture and all these other ties we may have to that institution i never knew Colossians 1:27 in its Bible said Christ (not) in you (not) the hope of glory

I might listen to this again, but I found this very unclear. I would like a full explanation of the difference between omnipresence and pantheism. I myself tend to think a lot hinges on whether people believe in evil or not, but it isn't my job to do evil to somebody to convince them that they need god's protection.

@michaelkistner6286

Ай бұрын

I'm not competent to give you a full explanation, but perhaps a thought experiment will help. Imagine sitting in an old school classroom. The instructor draws a circle on the board and then asks ''where inside the circle does the board exist?'. The answer, of course, is everywhere. The board is everywhere present (omnipresent) within the circle. Transcendence on classical theism is the recognition that the blackboard (God) is the substrate upon which the circle (reality as we know it) rests. Pantheism doesn't make that distinction. To a pantheist God and reality are different names for the same thing so ultimately God is the only thing that exists. Our intuitive distinction between me and not me is an illusion. Could that be true? Maybe. But to a western mind it's hard to process. More than that it is impossible to really act as if there is no difference between me and not me. After all, who is doing the acting? If good and evil are equally divine, why choose one over another? And again who is doing the choosing? My hunch is that a Gestalt is required, one which I'm both unable and unwilling to make. I like existing as me and have no desire to "be one with everything". On a side note: thinking that good and evil are nothing more than things we believe in is a core tenet of nihilism. On nihilism all hierarchies of value are arbitrary and so illusory. There is no such thing as better or worse except in an instrumental sense. So believing what is true is not better than believing what isn't. At which point there really isn't anything left to say. One can do so, but there can be no reason other than desire embodied in will enacted through power for doing anything. It's also hard to live that out consistently. Ironically, to a nihilist that isn't a problem. Why? because being self-consistent is not "better" than being hypocritical. Nihilism is the Hotel California of philosophy: "you can check out any time you like but you can never leave....".

08:20 - superstition is just a by-product of the fact that we're pattern-seeking mammals, prone to cognitive fallacies like confirmation bias. Most people would consider religious beliefs to be superstition, in the sense that they're used as an answer to existential questions that otherwise couldn't be answered, and are aligned with and affirmed by pre-existing beliefs. Not sure I've seen research showing that superstition is increasing though?

@EnglishMike

Ай бұрын

I think Horton is reaching a self-serving conclusion to support his philosophical and historical thesis. It is true that there are many more non-religious people in the USA than there were 50 years ago, and that a significant majority of them (around 2/3rds) still believe in some kind of supernatural power or being, but it is also true that many of those who still believe in the supernatural are simply holding on to the vestiges of their family faith traditions -- a belief in a monotheistic god who responds to prayer and cares for them -- rather than actively adopting some spiritual practice that has somehow made its way through thousands of years of history to the modern day. So yeah, I don't think people are getting more superstition either. It's just that more people are reluctant to call what they believe a religion (because they reject the dogma and doctrines of Christianity for various reasons) but they haven't rejected the claims that there is a higher power of some sort. Thus it's only because apologists carve out an exception for Christianity (or religions in general) as a "superstition" that they can make this claim. In reality, these non-religious people are mostly far more secular and less superstitious than American evangelicals who go about claiming that Harry Potter leading kids into Satanism or who believe that witchcraft is real and spells and curses work.

@njhoepner

25 күн бұрын

All religions are superstition - including christianity. Once one accepts one set of supernatural beliefs, there is no reason aside from personal preference not to accept them all.

Horton does make an important point about apologists focusing all their efforts on atheists, when they only make up 17% of the non-religious community in America. But we all know why that is, right? The role of apologists is not to convert the non-believers, it's to reassure the Christians who might be having doubts when faced with atheists' arguments, or having difficultly rebutting them. The apologists' audience are Christians. It's Christians who watch their videos, and it's Christians who fund their channels. Without their Christian audience, most of the apologetics channels would have folded years ago. Opposing strident assertions of atheists (and anti-theists) is a much easier sell/watch to that Christian audience than rebutting the vague and unfocused statements of the "I'm not religious, but I still believe there's someone up there controlling things" crowd. And giving those vague beliefs an airing in front of their Christian audience, not to mention the beliefs of progressive Christians is a much more risky proposition, since those who have doubts might find solace and meaning in them.

I don't know why, but Horton so greatly understates the number of atheists and agnostics in America. According to Pew Research's latest numbers, both communities stand at around 5% of the American population, not 2-3% combined. Together they make up 37% of the "nones" -- the Americans who identify as non-religious. A minority, yes, but at over one third, it's a significant one among the non-religious.

Im only 20 minutes in. I may finish the video or I may not, but this guy is way off. How can you criticize the notion that nature is "pulsating with the divine". If God is omnipresent than of course he is in nature. Read Romans 1:20. And why do you so easily dismiss the notion thag God is in all of us. Doesn't the opening of John say that "Apart from Him not one thing was made that has been made"? Doesn't Paul contend that Jesus Christ is in you? And doesn't Jesus himself say "I am in the Father and you are in me and I am in you"?

Horton is religious but not spiritual.

@transfigured3673

Ай бұрын

nailed it

@cjfoster4179

24 күн бұрын

Have you met him?

@Christian-vq8rd

24 күн бұрын

@@cjfoster4179 no. Just what he says/teaches on WHI and lectures,books, interviews, etc.

What even IS "spiritual? Is that feeling some kind of way because in 2024 those are known as emotions. Is it agreeing to certain ideas? Because we call that cognition. Is it the ability to self-reflect on your abilities, dis-abilities, wrong-doing, or harm... because that's conscious self-awareness. Things like awe, wonder, remorse, love, compassion, and ecstasy all are explained. So what do you do when you are "spiritual"??

@tookie36

Ай бұрын

It’s the recognition of that which is transcendent to all the things you mentioned. Which reorders your life

I think in a lot of ways it's worse. The one thing I'll commend atheists for is their honesty. So called spiritualists more often than not are atheists in everything but name and what they way call "transcendent" or "God" is all subjective.

@EnglishMike

Ай бұрын

No, they're not atheists. They're typically non-religious people who find that atheism is a step too far for them. Most of my non-religious friends still hold on to the belief that there's something beyond the natural out there, whether it's some kind of god or some kind of pantheistic force. They still like the idea of something or someone being "in control". Sure, what they believe has little bearing on their daily lives -- indeed, most barely think about such things at all except when asked -- but there's not fraudulent about it. It's simply what they believe, just the same as Christians, Muslims, and other religious folks. There are charlatans in every community, including the Christian community, but they are few compared with the entire group.

@bradleymarshall5489

Ай бұрын

@@EnglishMike I did say more often than not to leave the door open to those who do recognize there is a greater power out there outside of themselves but a lot of them time even then it's something that they define for themselves outside of a tradition that speaks on how we're supposed to view God

@njhoepner

25 күн бұрын

Christianity is too. 1100+ denominations, each insisting that all the others are wrong, while people "church-shop" whenever they move from one town to another...says it all. Humans invent religion, then the next generation reinvents it, and so on...true of all religions, no exceptions.

Jeremiah 17:9-10 (NIV) The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? “I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve.” I need you Jesus!!

My theology is Orthodox and Protestant. Yet I associate with "spiritual but not religious" category. My reasons for this association to disentangle myself from "corporate worship" of Christianity and specifically Protestantism. Protestantism has been completely taken over by folks more interested in using the Gospel as a tool for money, political power, and sex. Today, a "successful ministry" is completely defined in terms of increase in membership and an increase of money. Today, sermons are sales pitches. And denominations are now for-profit corporations. That is what I reject.

@cassidyanderson3722

Ай бұрын

Interesting. I’m curious as to how one can hold to both Orthodox theology and Protestant (which group?) theology. It seems like they contradict one another on multiple, substantive issues.

@manager0175

Ай бұрын

@@cassidyanderson3722 I am Orthodox in that I believe all of the essential doctrines to be Christian, and I believe them to be essential. I am protestant in that I reject papal authority, salvation by grace alone, and I believe in the priesthood of all believers. Perhaps I should have said orthodox, not Orthodox.

@cassidyanderson3722

Ай бұрын

@@manager0175 Gotcha. Anytime I see “Orthodox” I think “Eastern Orthodox.” I would note, though, that the EO believe all the things you listed as Protestant beliefs. Maybe you are Orthodox 😆.

@manager0175

29 күн бұрын

@@cassidyanderson3722 I do have a great deal of respect for the Orthodox traditions. Especially their mystic traditions.

"We're not very good at being gods We're not even very good at being humans" 44:31

@njhoepner

25 күн бұрын

We're really good at inventing gods though...and reinventing them whenever it suits us...which is where all religions come from (including yours).

29:16 The magic wasnt condensed so much as it was simply lopped off. In attempting to abbreviate the ritualistic aspects of worship we have simply abbreivated worship. Is it any wonder that a society where religious pilgrimage becomes blasé we see religious stunting everywhere else? We have replaced this sacred divinity with reason. The west fell in love with reason and eventually looked to it as God. But it was (and is) a false god. It gives us incredible insights into creation and yet cannot answer a question as simple as "Why?" There is something fundamentally lacking in the modern human experience. I think the answer lies in these sacred and mystical expressions of Christ.

I want to learn about the "earthyness" of Christianity.

@EmilyTodicescu

12 күн бұрын

Check out Paul Kingsnorth .. he’s the earthiest Christian I’ve come across.

Interesting, thank you. The 9 dot problem can not be solved unless there is a willingness to submit to a "higher power" outside one's self. Mystics likes Alex Jones has led secular people and Christians astray not being able to discern reality clearly. Some wise stuff in video. Great topic!

@EnglishMike

Ай бұрын

Alex Jones a mystic? Come on now. He's nothing more than a fraud and a liar, peddling in conspiracy theories that tap into the conservative's fear center of the brain. To call him a mystic is to imbue him with powers he clearly doesn't possess.

@Athabrose

Ай бұрын

Alex Jones isn’t a mystic, not even close. Odd

@lynnlavoy6778

Ай бұрын

@willmo81 it's nice to know you are all knowing and an authority on "labels." It's like saying the trans movement isn't a religion - let those who have eyes see, that's not you dude

@Athabrose

Ай бұрын

@@lynnlavoy6778 labels are more than labels as they point to a reality. The reality is Alex Jones is not a mystic and I thought it was odd to call him such. It’s like saying the President is a chicken farmer, he’s just not. Im no authority but I read/study the mystics daily and he is not even close to a mystic. You’re making a lot of assumptions because I disagree with what you said. Instead of getting defensive it may have been more helpful to ask me why I disagree.

@lynnlavoy6778

Ай бұрын

@willmo81 modernity and framing. Reality and truth. Chaos and order. I understand why you disagree, he is a comedian, a performer not unlike most mystics alive today. Certainly, not like mystics in history. I bet he conciders himself a mystic , certainly a channeler like David Icke. Both of thier followers are audience captured with "reality" being in the eye of the beholder.

Very ironic - "New Age" thinking is so "Old" 😄

I have yet to get a definition of "spiritual." If it's feeling some kind of way, in 2024 we call those emotions. Is it thinking something? In 2024 we call that cognition. Is it hearing that "inside voice"? Because we call that conscious self-awareness. Is it being moral? Doing the right thing? Self-explanatory. Spiritual has no good even definition so...no. A non-issue.

@EnglishMike

Ай бұрын

Yeah, it's anything the person talking about it wants it to be.

this spiritualism in the church looks a lot like a return Gnosticism to me

I’ll say, as a Gen Z Christian, of the dozens of similar aged non-Christian Americans that I know, there may be ONE who identifies as an actual atheist, and the rest of vaguely mystical and superstitious

I think Horton misses the point about non-believers when he attempts to use philosophy to draw a connection between the spiritualism of many non-believers and religious innovations/trends from over 2,000 years ago. The vast majority of non-believers either still adhere vestiges of their family religious traditions (many still pray, for example) or they simply don't think about religion (or spirituality) much at all in their daily lives. If asked they'll talk about believing in "something up there" but otherwise it doesn't play any sort of role in their lives. Trying to dress all this up in some kind of philosophical jargon seems nothing more than something an academic likes to do. It doesn't really comport with the reality of the modern day non-religious experience. Frankly, I think it's more about the fact that most non-religious people feel that atheism -- that there isn't anything beyond the natural world -- is a step too far, and one they're not willing or ready to take. As an atheist myself, I understand their hesitancy, but I also understand that practically speaking there's very little that separates their secular outlook on life and mine.

Spiritual but not religious, is a reaction to people who are religioius but not spiritual. It's an absolutely necessary thing to happen as long as Christians aren't all perfectly balanced and able to dynamically adapt to a constantly changing context. It's all in God's plan. The living God is in us and above. His glory permeates everything. When official christiantity becomes this system, basically a system of keeping God under wraps and controlled, which is inevitable, an opposite breaks loose and finds a way to stir up the water so that the systematic people must readapt. They are two sides of the same coing. All God's plan.

The Hebraic roots of the Christian faith is that there is no divine part within us? Has this man ever heard of this book I discovered called Genesis. I'm only a couple of chapters in, but seems like that doesn't jive.

I hope his argument in the book is more cogent then what I'm hearing here, because he's all over the place. Very disjointed.

Are you German?

@thomasrutledge5941

Ай бұрын

Dr. Gavin Ortlund is a Swedish Amercan.

It is an utmost delusion to be happy to be ruled by the celestial dictator!

Worse than atheism? Is spiritual and religious any better? I’d say any/all adherence to any supernatural or superstitious belief is unwarranted and worse than atheism, the only intellectually honest position. I see no real difference between the disparaged spirituality and the extolled Christianity in this discussion other than how well established the doctrine and dogma is.

7:13 Mr Ortlund supported by Starbucks

Can't help to cringe at the dual claims about being loved by God and owned by God. That's no way to win back the "nones" who have rejected Christianity for their own beliefs.

@MattSmithJ

Ай бұрын

"Owning" certainly has many negative connotations, especially considering 19th century slavery. But based on the Christian worldview, God created humans - therefore, he owns them.

@EnglishMike

Ай бұрын

@@MattSmithJ Well yeah, but it makes us all puppets for him to do with as he pleases. Bit odd for a religion that claims the good is necessary to give people meaning. There's no real consistency there.

@graysonguinn1943

28 күн бұрын

@@EnglishMikeit’s complicated because we are called ‘slaves to Christ’ but also ‘no longer servants but friends’ to G-d. I would say the ownership in question is not puppetry or coercion but voluntary self giving, in a similar way to how persons of the trinity give themselves to each other

@EnglishMike

22 күн бұрын

@@graysonguinn1943 Can I sin in Heaven? If the love of my life of 60 years dies and goes to Hell for being an unbeliever, can I still mourn her loss when I get to Heaven?

@graysonguinn1943

22 күн бұрын

@@EnglishMike I would say there is no sin heaven. As for mourning, I myself am troubled with the conundrum of how that would work out. I wouldn’t say unbelief 100% guarantees damnation, as it’s said ‘we may dare to hope all are saved’. CS Lewis had many useful things to say about Hell and specifically mourning for the unsaved in The Great Divorce. I found it helpful, you might as well if you haven’t read it

[TU]: "Is Spirituality a Greater Foe than Atheism?" No. Ignorance is the only foe.

Nothing New About the New Age. Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Take a shot whenever he says "uh" or "ehm" No seriously, can't people work on their rhetorical skills when they give a talk? This is hard to listen to.

I really don't want to call the program again, but I will have to call to ask why atheists refuse to ask for proof that the Quran was memorized. I don't want to bother you, I just want to have recorded for future generations your answer to my question "why atheists refuse to ask for proof that the Quran was memorized?". I need to know why atheists believed without questions asked the Quran was memorized. I need to know why they don't want proof. If atheists don't consider important if the Quran was or not memorized at least future generations would know that's the reason. Do you want to know if muslims lied to you? The world is at war and atheists refuse to ask for proof to muslims that the Quran was memorized, do you think it is normal behavior? What would be the future of atheism if atheists continue to protect religion? To not waste this loving poem I say atheism is a logical fallacy that assumes God is the religious idea of the creator of the creation to conclude wrongly no creator exists because a particular idea of God doesn’t exist. Thank you.

Dude hating on Anabaptists while talking to a Baptist who probably likes them...

“Spiritual but not Religious” just means alcoholic

@KB-gd6fc

Ай бұрын

That’s actually pretty true from what I’ve seen lol. It’s usually alcoholics who say that for some reason.

The church is mythical and should be taken metaphorically not literally

very important subject, but this one ain't it.

It started in the garden of Eden! Rebellion against God - and Satan is behind all of it! People have a spiritual thirst - but for anything other than God. So Satan supplies them with what they want. The Bible says no one seeks God.

@EnglishMike

Ай бұрын

Sure, going around telling non-religious people they're doing the work of Satan is really going to help win them to Christ... /s

@mikekayanderson408

Ай бұрын

@@EnglishMike all false religions and spirituality are of Satan. I was commenting on the topic of false spirituality - so was being honest. If I were speaking directly to a nonbeliever who was into something dangerous spiritually I would share the fact that it was not helpful to them and try to share the Gospel the Gospel with them. But if we are going to share the Gospel we need to address the fall which took place in the garden of Eden and the solution which is Jesus Christ. K

@EnglishMike

29 күн бұрын

@@mikekayanderson408 We I don't share your superstitions, so whatever spiritual stuff people are up to is neither here nor there. It's all bunk in the end. I do still marvel at the parochialness of it all though, given the very narrow focus of the evangelical and apologetic effort (US non-believers) when there's billions of non Christians in the world who are completely ignored because it's too much effort and expense (and danger) to evangelize them...

The idea that there's "nothing divine in us" is heterodox, to say the least. Is it not written in your law "You are gods”’?

@givenhawk

Ай бұрын

.... see Heiser to get clarity on that misapplied quote.

@ronaldorivera4674

Ай бұрын

That misapplied quote is why Mormons stay in that cult, if they believed they couldn't become god's after their death, they would abandon Mormonism.

@cassidyanderson3722

Ай бұрын

Good question.

@transfigured3673

Ай бұрын

this is an excellent point.