The hiding on the outside of the edge can only happen if the chess player stays on the edge of the board allowing the checkers to capture at the edge

@Muho_is_me

2 ай бұрын

Yeah so ceckers bigges weaknese becomse their strength

@Adhesive-Bandage

Ай бұрын

@@Muho_is_mePlease get a spellcheck.

Two ideas: 1. Have you tried using both the red and the black checkers? Since you're playing with all the squares, it might be a better visual to know which checkers can interact with each other. 2. What if you start with some of your checkers already as kings, so theres something to use to balance other than sheer number of checkers? You could lock them away in the back so the checkers player has to try to unbury them and the chess player has to plan for the long-term more consistently.

@mburg33

2 ай бұрын

Yea maybe starting with 2 kings that act like draughts kings (they move like bishops and since they are limited to one color, starting with 2 would be good). Or the Checker Kings could be a combo of a chess King-Bishop with the ability to capture by jumping or moving onto the square the chess piece was on. Also adding Russian rules of Draughts, making edge captures act like pawn capturing and adding en passant to checker moves (but capturing exactly like a pawn would before it starts to jump sequence) would further balance it.

@squiddler7731

Ай бұрын

I was thinking the same thing, starting with kings. Cause if you think about it, that's how it works for chess: half your pieces are essentially pawns that have already promoted. If checkers started out with promoted pieces that would make the game much more even in terms of strategic options available at the start.

The hallmark of a balanced game is when both sides think the other is overpowered.

"Checkers aren't overpowered. Let me show you why" *proceeds to demonstrate how checkers overpower the chess pieces*

@pierrecurie

2 ай бұрын

He then swaps sides... and gets his ass kicked again. All it shows is that he sucks at this game lol.

@couththememer

Ай бұрын

​@@pierrecurie You don't have to roast him twice...

@couththememer

Ай бұрын

@@pierrecurie You don't have to roast him twice...

@mikko5471

Ай бұрын

@@couththememer You didn't have to reply twice 💀

@computerzero2681

Ай бұрын

@@mikko5471 I think it is an old KZread comment glitch...

I miss old board design with rocks as squares

@Denkr488

2 ай бұрын

There should be where you can select either option: 3D or 2D Board

With the Flying Kings rule in effect, any piece that has been crowned king is allowed to move any number of spaces in a diagonal direction both forward and backward, in addition to being able to jump any checkers piece in its path, just as long as there is at least one space after the opponent's checkers piece.

Wow this Toby guy is pretty good at chess vs checkers

@ToggledGamer

2 ай бұрын

This toby guy right?

@tobyonatabe2601

2 ай бұрын

@@ToggledGamer yup!

@peteryeeterson5766

Ай бұрын

EDGEWORTH

Like a strategic army versus a horde of zombies.

with 30 checkers, and a total of 39 points from a chess board, each checker can be matched with 1.3 points of chess material [not saying its worth that amount, just saying in terms of trading what u should aim for to be proportional, which would be its value if both sides were balanced]. which is interesting cause when playing i feel like i would avoid a pawn for checker trade, though i think that is still a good idea just because of their sheer numbers and stronger chess pieces struggle to exert their advantage on a dense horde as they can get captured too easily. they don't get powerful till later

6:44, bringing the rooks together threatening the back rank is huge. They of course can both block and threaten your queen, but then you move your queen to whete you moved the bishop and they then move the white square piece on the rook's column to theaten the queen, but in that case you sac you bring the rook in and sac either the rook or queen to get the back rank, which is basically an instant win

Allow backwards captures for checkers.

@omegahaxors3306

2 ай бұрын

Sure but then what do kings get?

@theominouspigeon

2 ай бұрын

@@omegahaxors3306 orthagonal movement?

I've got a crazy game mode idea for this style of chess fog of war chess versus checkers

You should make it so that its one of these: 1. The two chess teams unite and the black and white are working together but the checkers did the same. 2. The black checkers team up with black chess pieces and red checkers team up with white chess pieces. 3. Either black chess peices vs red checkers or white chess pieces vs black checkers.

Where I live (the Netherlands), we have 2 forms of checkers, one where a king checker can move like a normal checker and backwords and one with that rule but they can also move infinitly along a diagonal. But in both variants THE CHECKERS CAN CAPTURE BACKWORDS EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT A KING CHECKER

@shadowcween7890

2 ай бұрын

He's probably doing it the U.S. way, where only king checkers can go backward

@pannenkoeksus

2 ай бұрын

@@shadowcween7890 no shit bro I didn't know that after 4 days and someone else replying the same thing

@mburg33

2 ай бұрын

@@shadowcween7890yea but the US rules for Draughts is too one sided in favor of the chess pieces. Checker Kings probably need a buff to be able to move/capture like a Chess King/Bishop (a Checker Queen would be much too powerful).

@HatterTobias

Ай бұрын

If I have to guess, International and Frisian?

@aBucketOfPuppies

Ай бұрын

I was introduced to the flying king version in the Philippines. It is very silly imo

Finding the right amount of checkers to balance this is a pretty hard problem and I'm curious if you were able to find a not-entirely-subjective way to evaluate which side is the strongest. If not, I might try to think about this in my spare time.

@tobyonatabe2601

2 ай бұрын

Lemon might make a chess vs checkers bot to run simulations, but it'd be difficult to make it good enough to get good results!

@Alphabetatralala

2 ай бұрын

@@tobyonatabe2601 I agree, that was actually my issue here. Making an engine from scratch that is good enough to only make sensible move would either need lot of knowledge on the game itself or lot of computing ressources which I assume lemon does not have. The next best thing is using statistics from players game to determine how to balance the game, but I doubt anyone really knows what they're doing at this point in time.

@Alphabetatralala

2 ай бұрын

@@asdfqwerty14587 Checkers can easily sacrifice their stuff to disrupt chess positions in a way that threaten pieces if ignored. You seem to be suggesting extemely passive play from chess, I haven't understood exactly what your strategy is but I don't think it's ever gonna work.

@asdfqwerty14587

2 ай бұрын

1. Sacrifice your flank pawns. 2. Move the pawn in front of your queen (or king) 1 square. 3. Any time a checker moves in front of the rook, capture it, then move the rook back once they attack the rook again. 4. Any other time, move the knight back and forth between its original square and the square in front of the queen (or king). The only times the checkers can threaten to capture anything are when it moves in front of the rook or queen, but every time that happens the checker will be captured for free. This can force the checkers player to throw a potentially infinite number of checkers into the meatgrinder once set up, and then you can reduce the game to an endgame position where the checkers player only has 9 checkers left which are unable to move anywhere, and chess should have enough material to be able to win that without ending in a stalemate. Chess should be able to beat pretty much any number of checkers with a strategy like that (as long as they aren't so far forward that you're unable to push your pawns in the first few turns).

Im with toby on this one. Ive always thought the chess pieces had an advantage.

My biggest concern isn't the outside edges but that checkers have nearly double total pieces, meaning as long as the checkers player forces trades with sacrifices they'll end up pretty far ahead. You might consider buffing Chess by giving Pawns an En Passant capture when a Checker moves away from being directly in front of the pawn to the pawn's side. For instance, at 13:12, if you'd moved the checker on H6 to I5, you'd let the pawn En Passant to I6 and capture the checker

@pierrecurie

2 ай бұрын

But their main weakness is inability to move backwards. Once you infiltrate the back, their position falls very quickly. The same happens in Dunsanny chess - despite there being 32 pwns, it's surprisingly hard to defend.

@CSDragon

2 ай бұрын

@@pierrecurie It takes a lot of sacrifices to open up the position enough to get to their backline without 0th row defenders sniping anyone. And even then if you're just eating a backline piece once a move, the checkers player can be making plays in the frontline to make Kings

@pierrecurie

2 ай бұрын

@@CSDragon That's why it's not trivial.

when I was a kid, we'd play where you could capture pieces on the side, but you like "bounced" off the side, staying on the board. For example, if you're diagonal to a piece on the side, instead of capturing and going off the board, you'd move your piece two spaces forward, capturing the enemy piece on the side.

I did a small amount of theory work on this but could never balance it myself and found chess pieces overpowering checkers on any regular board. Seeing your changes helps address some of the concerns I had.

btw have you played Diamond Chess? It's similar to your Hexagon Chess, but on a smaller, diamond-shaped board, with 1 of each major piece, and 5 pawns each. Pieces also move ever so slightly differently, but it's kind of hard to explain. I think it's a pretty good evolution of Chess, but I'm interested to know if you've played it, and what you think of it

with time deciding the games both times, and in both instances it was you to fall to the clock, i would argue it is not really a fair balancing check. The clock begins to show a difference in skill, with the level of planning behind each move and not knowing what is and isnt worth considering. If the goal is a balance check between 2 opponents of differing skill levels, i would argue a lack of timer and more active communication would be the key. We hear your thought process on the affair, but know nothing of how the opponent thought the match went. Did they have an answer for every move you made, or were they reacting and thinking about the ramifications of each move as much as you were? Regardless of the answer, it says something about the way each side plays in relation to each other. Otherwise, the mathematical answer to the question could really only be found with a simulation: AI vs AI. Which style wins more "perfectly played" games, and which ones wins more of the complete set (where no weight is put into wins, losses, and mistakes, it simply makes a list of every possible set of game logs)? The former indicates the skill ceiling, and the latter indicates the skill floor and casual experience. A game can be balanced for high level or "perfect" play, but be so one-sided on casual play that no-one bothers honing their skills enough to compete. On the flip side, the game can be balanced for the casual to maximize fun, but become so one-sided at high level or "perfect" play that it never sees serious competition (and likely even ends up killing the enjoyment of anyone who does look into the game to see that playing with high skill will always result in the same outcome, even if the journey is different).

My guy lost both times to time, showing nothing besides how bad at planning ahead he is. I mean seriously, losing 3 pieces in one turn only to turn around and lose 2 more the next, bro, how do you manage that? And you had more pieces and still lost despite being able to force trade a win for the most part, okay.

itd be nice if there was a material counter in the game so you can easily see, like number of checkers and then chess material

I know a variant of checkers that has a camel piece basically you can move it one space diagonally and then two straight. It also can jump so there’s that

Oh wow, I came up with a very similar concept myself in the past! That's pretty cool.

You should add the flying kings rule to help out the checkers pieces a little. You should alos make it so they can go first like the pawns in the horde variant of chess. There are 36 pawns in horde, and they go first but the standard chess setup still has the advantage.

Next. Combine Chess and Go, and create a game of Territorial Chess.

Can you make a engine about chess vs checkers?

@GreenLemonGames

2 ай бұрын

It's in the works!

What if instead of going to the blue section just let them capture on the edge without jumping

I want to see the best chess player vs the best checker player in this

There is just way to many. U Can take 1 for 1 and easily have enough to win. You could take away the ones that start on the end. Cause they are kinda invincible until they move them. And in exchange give them 2 kings that start at the back

Nice idea, instant buy for me.

And how much material is 1 king checker worth

Reasons why normal checkers vs normal chess is easily for chess 1: the king can just hide at the edge 2: if you castle you just have to dont move the rooks and the checkers cant make a queen / king 3: the checkers would have around 18 usefull points while chess has 39 usefull points if we dont include the king wich would be 4 points in the endgame so chess actually has 43 usefull points while checkers have 18 because of the edge But you did it balanced good work 👍

Arent the edge isnt the starter position for checkers?

How do you win as checkers? How do you checkmate the king? How do you even give a check?

@GreenLemonGames

2 ай бұрын

You have to capture the king

Checkers is just the American ruleset of draughts, if you just use the Russian rules and say capture on edge just lands on the edge as if it was a pawn capture it would be better. To make it more interesting you could give checkers the ability to en passant capture which could lead to other captures (but the first capture in the sequence is just like a pawn capture rather than a jump). It would be much more balanced this way in my opinion. Checkers could also start with 2 kings (that start in the center 2 squares on the back rank) to further balance things. Russian Draughts Kings move like bishops and can move/capture in all diagonals. Regular checkers in Russian Draughts only move forward but can capture in all diagonals. Adding Chess King movements to the Checker Kings would be great as well. All of this is much better than just adding an extension to the board that only checkers can move on. This could be done on all board types to make it more interesting and fun.

Who moves first?

literally my brain at 3am

Forgive my lack of knowledge of checkers but without clocks, how does each side win?

@GreenLemonGames

Ай бұрын

The checkers player has to capture the king, and the chess player wins by either taking all of the checkers or preventing all of the checkers from moving

Positive comment

Do checkers promote to kings once they reach the 10th rank or the 9th?

@GreenLemonGames

Ай бұрын

9th, but they'll also promote if they jump to the 10th

@MaoDunGe

Ай бұрын

Thanks, I've played this version of the game over the board and had a lot of fun

Bro, I don’t mean to hate, but Checkers are never supposed to play on White Squares. With that said, when play Chess and Checkers against each other, (with all 12 Checkers Pieces playing by The Rules of Checkers, and also with all 16 Chess Pieces playing by The Rules of Chess), there would be absolutely no use for any of the Chess Pieces that are supposed to move on only White Squares as (1.) they would not be able to capture any Checkers Pieces and (2.) all Checkers Pieces would not be able to capture any of those specific Chess Pieces either. Both of those Rules of Thumb also apply to all Checkers Kings, too, because even every King in Checkers is allowed to move on only the Black Squares and to never move on the White Squares. Also, you were not the very first-ever person to think of playing Chess and Checkers against each other, (with all 12 Checkers Pieces playing by The Rules of Checkers, and also with all 16 Chess Pieces playing by The Rules of Chess). I do not know if even I was the very first-ever person to have the thought of playing those 2 Board Games against each other in that particular, specific way, but I did think of it myself 2 years ago; so, if you thought of it less than 2 years ago, that means all credit goes to me in comparison between me and you devising this type of Board Game, and I have DATED photographs of a COMPLETE Board Setup, (from 2 years ago), of all 16 Chess Pieces of one color vs. all 12 Checkers Pieces of the other color to prove it, too.

Link to the game?

Is Mac supported?

I think there might be an issue that objectively the chess pieces are better, but lower level players win more with the checkers because they are simpler and you have more of them.

@heresJohnny73

Ай бұрын

I mean I think that explains what chess vs checkers mean im smart so im playing chess and your dumb so your playing checkers

Checkers is underrated

You need to buff the checkers more. It still doesn't work well. I already tried it.😅

First game. I don't know why you're playing with blitz timing rules when you obviously have much more complex decisions to make. All of his pieces move the same way. They're all worth the same value in material. He can only lose one unit of material per turn, while you have to consider protecting against multi jumps which could lose you many pieces at once. His captures are forced so once you put a piece into that position his only possible decision is "which checker do I use to capture".

Try Turkish draughts instead of the tradicional Checkers and maybe it will improve. Or got worse who know lol

Please add local multiplayer.

@GreenLemonGames

2 ай бұрын

It's coming soon!

This game seems like a presentation on Shark Tank that Mr Wonderful says to take behind the barn and shoot it in the head. Just seems really fucking annoying to play.

Chess vs Mages. Standard set for Chess and Checkers. Any time an enemy is directly adjacent to a Checker, remove it. Any time a Checker pins a piece to the edge, that piece can be removed or attacked.

So, yeah, you proved yourself it's unbalanced. The biggest problem is the checkers' "safe" zone, where you can keep an entire army on a back rank for protection v. chess only having the option of protecting the Knight with a couple very valuable pawns. Also, a good chess player recognizes that the checkers pieces have to put themselves in danger to capture - which is why your opponent moved their rook as soon as possible to a rank that prevented your checkers pieces from advancing, giving a huge space disadvantage. You'd only expect that type of understanding in advanced players, though, so you definitely need to figure out a way to BUFF the chess side (not nerf the checkers side) - that's 101 game making, never nerf a feature, but buff where the weakness is make it stronger, so both sides have a fun feeling. You might play around with giving the chess pieces their own set of pawns on the back "uncaptureable" rank or extra pawns on the flanks, or maybe consider giving the queen the ability to also move like a knight. If you can put it in an engine and have it play itself, and it has lots of draws at all levels of intelligence, you're likely getting to a point of balance.

@user-tn8qz8xk6o

2 ай бұрын

Yeah

@GreenLemonGames

2 ай бұрын

Playtesting has proven that Chess has an advantage with this setup.

@Chiberia

Ай бұрын

@@GreenLemonGames "technically" - if you can learn the 1-2 ways to stifle checkers' movement, you shut down their game. if you don't know those 1-2 moves, checkers has a severe advantage. my point in my comment was that the chess play can only really even play if they're advanced... it's not an approachable game by anyone, arguably, under 1500 ELO to play the chess side and above that chess will dominate and make it equally unplayable for checkers. it's a cool idea, it needs balancing though.

I want to play a mobile😢

HLG

Checkers are value 2.5 points pieces according to my calculations. That means checkers side has 1.5*30 = 45 points in the opening, but chess has 8+3*4+5*2+9 +3(for a king) = 8+15+10+9 = 42 points. Checker side is better but slightly better.

@user-th1hu6hg9s

2 ай бұрын

Checkers are not even 2 points.

One better option instead of adding more checkers, might be to just make it so that if a checker promotes to a king, it instead behaves like a chess king. This would give promotions a lot more weight, and allow for better movement coverage.

Your game is very interesting, but since it is not a true game of Chess vs. Checkers, I refuse to play your version of it.

you... kinda suck at time management. To me that seemed like the only big problem when you played the chess side. If you just moves at the same speed as your opponent you would probably be doing much better, and getting a more accurate idea of wether chess or checkers is stronger

@GreenLemonGames

Ай бұрын

You're definitely right! Toby agreed that my position was probably winning before the time scramble. My main goal with this video was to prove that the blue squares didn't make the checkers overpowered. I'm still working on figuring out how to get as close to perfect balance as possible.

Okay, I stopped playing your game just bacause YOU FORGOT THE CHECKERS CAN CAPTURE BACKWARDS EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT A KING CHECKER

@taanwallbanks9841

2 ай бұрын

That's not a rule in most cases. Checkers/draughts rules are different depending on the region, but it's generally assumed that pieces can't move backwards for captures unless they're kings (English version, most common denies backwards capture, international version doesn't)

@pannenkoeksus

2 ай бұрын

@@taanwallbanks9841 oh that explains why I am not from the Netherlands and we have the international and the Netherlands one, but I would still recommend it to green lemon games as it buffs checkers

@tobyonatabe2601

2 ай бұрын

@@pannenkoeksus it could easily tip the scales way back in the checkers favour again

@pannenkoeksus

2 ай бұрын

@@tobyonatabe2601 true but it is a way worse buff then an extra row, and ut will not confuse international players like me (I am 1600 FIDE and play checkers for fun sometimes)

@tobyonatabe2601

2 ай бұрын

@@pannenkoeksus trust me it's not, you can add a row of checkers and it won't do anything.

All this really proves is that you are not very good at this game