29:37 No because the way they phrased their comments like ”sweet summer child, wait until you read *insert a book romanticizing stalking and sexual abuse*😏 you’re so innocent” or some other quirky response as if their not being extremely inappropriate with a 16 year old… I definitely agree with the point of these readers inserting themselves in conversations but don’t want to hear even an ounce of criticism and get very offended when people don’t want them begging for smut on their page😒

@justwonder1404

2 ай бұрын

I actually think that wouldn't be ok even if he was an adult. People in those parts of internet seem far too comfortable recommending explicit books to strangers about whose experiences and boundaries they don't know anything. Of course, that kid being a minor takes it all to another level of messed up. It's very telling that they got so defensive at the slightest hint of criticism.

The people attacking this tiktok baffled me tbh bc why are we acting like booktok’s obsession with spice is a secret? Why are we acting like he’s the only one who has ever gotten this impression from booktok? Saw a reaction say that this tiktok is singlehandedly undermining libraries and librarian jobs in America and they wouldn’t be surprised if he’s supporting moms for liberty. It’s kind of gross to me that we’re conflating the banning of books about the experiences of marginalized people with a 20something on tiktok calling out the prominence of spicy romance on social media. For the record I’m a librarian trainee myself. The state of American libraries and book banning are important issues to me but this is NOT the same thing.

Also can we have romance wiithout smut? Like every single book from booktok specifically the "spicy" ones heavily relies on the smut when the romance is just not romancing lol. If I'm being honest, most good romance I've consumed, both in fanfics and books, are the ones that doesnt have much smexy stuff going on. There's chemistry but romance is not even the main plot. Even shoujo manga (japanese comics) and kdrama have better romance than all of these booktok "spicy" books could ever offer.

@katgreer6113

2 ай бұрын

Right.

@LeBoomkey

2 ай бұрын

I agree! I would really like to enter these book trends on tiktok to connect to new people, but the ammount of smut makes me so unconfortable lol Nothing wrong if it's something people like (and dont harrass people irl), but for me I'm waaaay more into subtle romance and focus on worldbuilding.

@burnt-croissants

Ай бұрын

My top three romances I’ve ever read have mild to no smut! I have nothing against smut and I read it quite regularly in my romances, but I just found this to be a coincidence lol. These books are: The Charm Offensive Never Ever Getting Back Together Boyfriend Material

Spice isn’t inherently the problem but peoples behavior. Sexually harassing real life people including a minor is so beyond disturbing. And when the author who writes this “spice” is the problem it’s the same, they take no criticism or accountability for their actions. I love erotic content and I don’t think it’s bad but the way grown ass adults, particularly women are engaging in such awful behavior that is a problem. You’d think with us as women we’d understand the feeling of harassment and not engage it. Also, a lot of erotic content is written so badly I feel my ovaries shrivel up and die, I’ve read better fanfic. Thats just my opinion tho 😂

There's a word for things like "corn" and "grape," it's "algo-speak." It's a term for replacing words in order to get around algorithms. Thought you might find that interesting to know.

This guy is absolutely right. I also feel like the amount of spicy books (or rather the space they take up of discourse online) is a huge problem. I remember getting back into reading a couple of years ago and picking up the spanish love deception, expecting a cutesy romance. That was the moment I learned to mistrust those cartoon covers.

Thank you SO much for talking about this. I started reading for fun again last year and learned the hard way that most of the books promoted online are filled with smut! I mostly read romance so it’s kind of inevitable but I prefer no spice/ low spice. Anything over 3 scenes gets super distracting for me because it begins to outweigh the story (not every time but a lot of the time). I’m trying to steer more towards general fiction and YA because it gets super annoying dealing with all the spicy scenes. I have to do a lot of research before reading a book because I don’t trust booktok anymore LOL.

As someone who doesn't read spicy books, I've never had any trouble finding piles and piles of books to read. I think it's important to remember that our view of past literature is skewed because we have forgotten 90% of old books because they weren't good. That can make people think that literature as a whole is getting worse or changing in some way we don't want when really we've just lost track of how books, and media in general, have always had lots of things like this. More jokingly: algorithm-focused content was a mistake.

@maiiau

2 ай бұрын

Also also: as an American, you don't actually want school boards to control what goes into libraries.

@shelleys.corner

2 ай бұрын

I can definitely agree that there are still loads of great books out there, but the recent trend of books that are being released with major grammatical errors, poor line writing, poor or little to no plot and even more issues. And so that's what I mean when I say quality is decreasing. And I'm not in America, but I do agree that education boards in America controlling the books is dangerous considering what they're doing with book banning. But with kids spending so much of their week in schools, there does need to be some control of what is put in front of them

@maiiau

2 ай бұрын

@@shelleys.corner Oh yeah, I'm not saying everything should go in school libraries, just like "you'd think a school board could handle this but actually apparently some school boards are wild". Probably best to work with the librarians, I think.

@shelleys.corner

2 ай бұрын

@maiiau Yea you're spot on! Librarians always have the best recs as well

@pithygrapefruit

2 ай бұрын

@@maiiau you want the school board and librarians to control it. Not the parents. The school board is much more permissive than religious right wing parents. Hence why parents are petitioning the school board to remove books all across the country.

People aren't saying that Booktok has a porn addiction problem because they are reading Spicy books, it's because they're harassing people (including minors) and when they get called out for violating consent they try to justify themselves by making excuses. (The same ones that some men use when they violate consent.) As a man I was disheartened to see how so many women on booktok supported Kiara during the whole Seattle Krakens drama and tried to justify her actions, ignoring the boundaries and consent of the Kraken player and his wife just so they could thirst after him. This goes into a deeper issue of consent and shows how much we have to learn. And on top of that, spicy books are the majority of, if not all of what they read and won't bother reading books unless they have spice or dark/toxic content. (All of this is very similar to people with porn addictions) And normally the response given is "Not all of Booktok is like that." Which is true, but when we continue to use that we as a community are not addressing the issue. It may not be all of booktok, but it is a part of it. There's nothing wrong with a little spice, it's what you do and how you act after reading it.

I was curious about why people should get upset for him calling the spicy books porn, According to Merriam-Webster, pornography is the depiction of erotic behavior in writing or pictures that is intended to cause sexual arousal. Pornography can also refer to the material itself, such as books or photographs, that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual arousal. So i don’t see how he is wrong, also the point you made about people on book tok asking “is there spice?” in every video about a book rec drives his point even further. Also, the spice has gotten out of control when books with spice do not state it in there recommendation, but books with out spice have to put it in the title of the video, that show how uncommon no spice is now a days. I personally prefer close door and no spice romance and really don’t care what others read, but they need to stop being offended and start calling a duck a duck 😂

@burnt-croissants

Ай бұрын

I don’t agree. If a movie or show has nudity or a sex scene would you call that porn? Or is that part of the artistic vision? Would you call the nakedness depicted in a Greco-Roman classical paiting porn? Or art? Books are a form of art, the exclusion or inclusion of sex is a decision that must contend with the artist’s vision and whether ir aligns with the tone, mood and thematic elements of the story. “Porn” is exclusively something created with the intention to elicit sexual arousal and release. Such as erotica and porn vids. All romance books aren’t automatically also eroticas, but eroticas can be also romance books. Does that make sense?

@dree1801

Ай бұрын

@@burnt-croissants A movie or a show with nothing but nudity IS porn, which is what smut books are. And please let's not call smut books "art". It's not that deep

I agree with you 💯. Especially about readers becoming “addicts in training.” I agree with the original TikToker that it’s super hard to find a book without spice these days. On a side note: my brain while you’re talking about spice obsession - “the spice must flow” 😂

Made me laugh how he would use "PO--!!" instead of corn lol like a fish :O

I fell victim to booktok. I am a thriller girly and I wanted to expand my horizons, so I turned to booktok. I read a couple books recommended and they were trash and contained SA and grape. There was another one with a 40 year old and a 17 year old (gross). This isn't spice to me, this is just gross. Luckily, I searched some thriller/fantasy/literary fiction/classics recommendations and now my FYP is serving me something other than books about SA disguised as "spicy".

So if we aren't gonna call porn addicts then what are they? Like what's the difference between someone consistently reading smut 24/7 (the only types of books they read) than someone watching pornhub 24/7. I was a porn addict, I watched a lot of porn to an unhealthy point and I don't see any difference between watching it or reading it. Porn is porn. And honestly I love the old detailed covers it's like a mini painting on the book. It just looks so good and I hope it comes back in full force. The cartoon drawings look like shit.

@twinmonster1989

Ай бұрын

I agree. My sister is ace-aro, and we grew up with books like Shiloh, The Little Princess, Anne of Green Gables, Tuesdays with Morrie, etc. So we've talked about the disappointment of hearing other people mainly discuss smut in books instead of a deeper meaning or message like it did with books we used to read. I also used to watch p0rn and read smut. To me, they are DEFINITELY the same thing. You get addicted to both, and both set false expectations for the viewer/reader about the opposite sex.

No like this is exactly how i feel about the whole situation but also a lot of the videos were giving a "hit dog will holler" and they indeed were hollering. But one thing i seen a lot was the very werid amount of people that have a problem with books have maturity ratings on them or how to deal with books that have explicit material in them for ex. Manga is plastic wrapped. Like i think it would sovle a lot of problems but people are being super annoying about it because it would ruin the aesthetic of the book or wouldn't be as discreet like bffr we trying to think of solution.

I don't think we necessarily need to change the comicesque covers - but maybe we should normalise age ratings like in comics or movies. My local library arranged their sections based on age and additionally a color code (for the age) on the book spine. I have seen libraries put a big +16 or +18 sticker on the cover of their mature series. For stores it can be either a removable sticker on the cover or a big(ger) sign on the back. I think that's a good solution of how to keep some freedom for libraries and cover design but also prevent some unhappy "accidents". :)

The hypocrisy you talked about with calling out other people for using words like abuse as buzzwords but who do the same thing is present in SO MANY fandoms and I hate it every time. I’m in pro wrestling fandom and was criticizing one company for its backstage scandals, and I got replies like “oh but when people talk about the behind the scenes stuff in the shows you watch you stay quiet” no I don’t, you’re just assuming everyone is a hypocrite because so many people are now!! lil off topic rant sorry but man I’m tired of this sort of perspective

I have mixed feelings about booktok (mostly negative I’ll be honest since I don’t like or use the app) but I do think the guy in the video had a point despite it not coming out really well. I read smut, I like spice, but it’s not the only thing I read, so my views may differ. Oh and also, great point about bringing random men into the sphere. I’ve seen it and it’s really uncomfortable to read some of their comments. It’s embarrassing honestly. Regardless, people can read what they want, I just wish booktok wasn’t so saturated with smut, it would be nice to see more genres and diversity on top of that AND last thing. We should be allowed to be uncomfortable and find dark and taboo romance weird, uncomfortable or creepy. People try to defend it but some of that content shouldn’t be defended, fiction or not. We’re all allowed to have opinions (okay I’ll go finish the video now 😂♥️you’re making great points)

@BooksToAshes

2 ай бұрын

Last point. YES, get rid of cartoon covers. There’s a reason why adult covers are easy to pick out, the cover is one of the few indicators to the content inside.

@pixelsbykris5494

2 ай бұрын

I'm going to have to disagree about nor defending dark/taboo romance stories. I DO agree that you should be allowed to be uncomfortable and will also give the caveat that you shouldn't feel the need to actively go out and defend such stories. BUT! The issue with nobody ever defending them is that it may lead to the only people talking about them being the detractors. Feeling uncomfortable about them is fine, but basing your views on whether or not they should be allowed to exist based purely on said feelings is not. That's the logic book banners use to ban stuff THEY don't like, even if it's just a story where a gay and/or trans person exists. Also, nobody is forcing anybody to read those books in the first place. As long as you're cognizant of the age group the story is targeted towards then you should be good. Especially since dark/taboo romances are usually marketed as such. At the end of the day these stories ARE fiction and should be treated as such. Fiction is- or at least CAN be -a healthy way to explore your own identity, kinks, and fantasies without harming others. Not to mention it can also be cathartic for some people who have been through horrible things in their lives to read fiction where they can cope/experience similar stories in a safe environment. Once peiple start trying to drag others into things who are to young, unprepared, already said they DON'T want to into things then you can definitely call that out. But actually having them exist is in a vacuum is perfectly fine. Like with how you should curate your own online experience to be the most comfortable you can be, you should also try to do that much within your own offline life. Which would include actively avoiding anything you know will upset you.

@BooksToAshes

2 ай бұрын

@@pixelsbykris5494 thanks for leaving your comment. I like seeing other views and dialogue on the topics. I think I only mentioned dark romance because I read a taboo romance a few months ago that crossed weird boundaries and I don’t think it should’ve been romanticized. I like dark romance but sometimes to me, it can be very problematic. Example: the book was about a romance between a 36 year old and a freshly 18 year old who raised her as her uncle (not related, step uncle) and was even there for her birth. Her earliest memories were of him at 4 years old and the step uncle even admits to lusting after her as early as 14. When it comes to kids or underage people I think it’s TOO much, most other kinks and taboos I can work with but it felt like grooming and incredibly creepy in that situation, I can’t be okay with people defending that personally. Fiction is fiction but there should be a line in MY opinion (in regards to children mostly). It’s fine if others disagree though of course. I think nuance and criticism is important.

@pixelsbykris5494

2 ай бұрын

@BooksToAshes As much as I understand you feeling squicked out and uncomfortable by stories like that, I also think it's okay for them to exist. Not because I think the situation is okay irl, but the opposite. It's NOT a good or healthy situation for the possibility of grooming like you mentioned, but it's better to explore that topic in fiction where it's a safe environment. One where someone who HAS been groomed to possibly read in order to help them cope with the situation, for example. Simply writing about a topic at all doesn't equate to endorsement. If that were the case, then stories focusing on a serial killer would mean you endorse mass murder. It's HOW you write a topic that one should pay attention to. I agree that stories like the one you mentioned shouldn't be romanticized, but you can write a story where it's NOT romanticized even if it's the main focus. Now, do I think those stories WILL be written with nuance and care? No. Not always, at least. But just because those stories won't be handled correctly 100% of the time doesn't mean they shouldn't even be allowed to exist Ever. Most things aren't always written with nuance and care, and romance of ANY kind is no exception. Even stories Not marketed as Dark Romance can be problematic in different ways. Like if it's got a lot of harmful and negative stereotypes, for example. or something like a book published by that company Brave Books that publishes stories that are marketed as children's books, but are only poorly-written propaganda books for conservative parents who "don't want woke books published by scholastic." Instead, I think we should be more careful about who gets a hold of these kinds of stories and how. Obviously, a dark romance story tends to be geared towards adults as-is, so I definitely think it's important to keep actual children away from them, but that's Children. Once you reach a certain age, you should be allowed to read any story, that's why age categories exist for books, movies, tv shows, etc. But banning ANYONE from reading/writing those stories EVER? That's just not something I can get behind.

@katgreer6113

2 ай бұрын

I think there should be a very visible age rating on the spine of a book or something that says "14+" or anything like that.

Their sexuality wasn't attacked, their egos were. That's why they reacted the way they did. If a spicetok girlie said the exact same thing, then the girls would lol and agree. Most people on booktube have made videos on booktok, and they see no problem at all with it. About the cartoon covers, spicytok justifies them by saying, "I learned about *this explicit thing* at the age of 9," Like ummm hey girls just because it happened to you DOESN'T MAKE IT ALRIGHT. I agree with every single word you've said. Also, why is it called smut and not erot!ca? Cause like that's exactly what their books are. Erot!ca

No, THANK YOU! Because I have not been reading as much as I have in the past for this very reason!! I'm not a smut girlie and it's becoming harder and harder to easily find a book that isn't riddled with scenes I'd rather not read. This is my first video of yours. I'm subscribing. I have been complaining to my husband about this topic for a while.

My Dune, my Arrakis, my spice...

You're actually so right, and the spice obsession is WILD. I get that people were upset and there is a discussion to be had about people who read classics etc always shitting on people who read romance books with smut in them (bringing this up since he mentioned he just read a classic), but like... it is kinda concerning to see how many people who need super graphic scenes in every single book, and especially dark romances, and then the problems just get brushed under the rug. Girls now want super dominant possessive "you're mine" kinda guys as if that's not a super shit position to be in in a relationship, and abusive relationships get romanticized because the smut was good.... Idk I just feel like some people on booktok and bookstagram has completely lost the ability to differentiate fiction and reality, and it seems like they have a problem knowing when smut is appropriate and when it's not. And also, this has nothing to do with the topic you discussed but I've seen people commenting on real people on tiktoks pages being like "omg you would be the perfect ____ from ____" comparing random people to characters in super graphic smut books, like hello what is actually going on??? I would be so uncomfortable with people imagining me as a character in a dark romance or whatever-

I personally would like the spicy books to have their own category / genre (which it was originally or at least it was where I am from) and leave the other genres alone. It would make life for all easier. The booktok readers have a place to always find what they are looking for and everyone else can stay clear of it. I do not care for spice at all and I do not like reading it which makes looking for new books to read hard (especially when I'm looking for a fluffy rom-com). It's sad that both cannot exist at the same time it seems

I hate smut for smuts sake. Don’t get me wrong if it moves the plot and fits the book it can be great. But now it’s like adventure random smut scene. I try to find actual fantasy and I have to wade through all the “romantasy” to find the single actual fantasy book is annoying. I tried to look through booktok and I had to give up.

I write low spice, low fantasy books. But I know my books aren’t going to be popular on ticktock but I don’t care about the whole spice thing because history has been having these books for years but you had to get it not in public as it would be scandalous(or at least from what I’ve heard) I also label on my books on the first page as a warning that it’s not for children. I don’t have an artist so it has the cheap plain covers. Also on Amazon it’s for 18+

As an adult, I thought some of these cartoon covers were going to be fluffy romances, and was not expecting the level of spice. I'm used to spicy books having shirtless dudes or looking 50 Shades-esque. Covers need to communicate what the story is going to be like. I wonder if it's deliberate - they make the cover is all cutesy, but the romance is spicy, and hope that people that wouldn't otherwise buy 3rot!ca will pick it up and buy it thinking it's something else.

I have been listening to your reviews and added a few to my TBR list. I appreciate your reviews.

I don't have an issue with the existence of spicy books, or even their popularity, but when it feels to me like more than enthusiasm or healthy obsession is when books not marketed as spicy (and sometimes specifically marketed as not being spicy) are given low ratings/negative reviews because they're not spicy. This is especially frustrating when they're books that are marketed as YA. There seems to be no shortage of spicy books out there, so I feel like spice-fans should stick to those books instead of demanding spice from books, genres, and age categories that aren't spicy. Also, sometimes it's hard to find good upper YA/adult fantasy romance that is low-to-no-spice, so I do wish it got as much attention.

bro that vid was just a little he he ha ha, and people are out here getting their knickers in a twist. and while i understand people pointing out his unfortunate word choice, i don't see how that video is being taken seriously to this point

I think this really needs to be discussed because some of the content that people are consuming is worrying tbh. I have seen at publishing fairs and book events where publishers just have upcoming books displayed with "(g)rape romance" as one of the descriptors just out there like that's totally normal. I feel like when this whole spice movement began it started with I guess "vanilla" kind of stuff but as with anything that leans into addiction (which for some of these readers I feel like that is a possibility) you need to ramp it up and up until we get from regular "vanilla" stuff to "(g)rape romance" being a selling point for a book. If someone turned around to me and said they could not watch anything unless it had that level of s*xual content in it I would be highly concerned. It being written and not video is no different. Also, the wording is honestly scary there is nothing NOTHING romantic about (g)rape, as an SA survivor I hate that this is something that people actively seek out now. A lot of women online talk about how it is empowering to read these spicy books and to a point I can understand that, like reclaiming your sexuality but once you're reading something where the woman is kidnapped, brutalised, SAed, (g)raped and has essentially all agency and bodily autonomy forcibly stripped from her how is that empowering? And it is clear that some of the people in this spicetok sphere are struggling to understand where the line is now as mentioned in the video with women going into the comments of minors or non-consenting men just to sexually harass them I feel like the line of reality starts to blur. They're consuming so much explicit content in these books that when it comes to real-life people they're struggling to see what is okay and what isn't.

@sao-me1lt

2 ай бұрын

Truth. Have yet to see any clinical psychologist's work saying that it's beneficial to your health to romanticize you own trauma (because it isn't-it's a bandaid, ignorant solution to a gaping wound).

@katedann8377

2 ай бұрын

@@sao-me1lt Personally for me I really can't understand the want to read about situations like what happened to me again. I know I wouldn't find anything in it but to re-traumatise myself. I also can't see how "romanticizing" your own SA could be healthy in the long run. The only way that I healed from my situation was to process it and work through that trauma over a period of years. Re-freaming it so that it's romanticized feels like doing mental gymnastics just to give my abusers more power by making the sitution into something it wasn't. A lot of SA survivors doubt ourselves or try to blame ourselves for whatever was done to us and I think consuming content where somone is abused to the point where they start to be covinced/coerced into believing they like it could not possibly help that mental state. Again this is all from my own personal perspective and I don't want to invalidate anyone's healing journey but I just worry that some people are as you said putting a band-aid over a bullet wound.

This is my first video of yours and you are such a breath of fresh air on this platform for me as someone who loves fantasy and not spice! I have found that I enjoy an occasional contemporary romance with no spice but jeez finding it is hard when I also don’t care to read about teenage love anymore. It’s embarrassing the number of times I have let booktube influence me into wanting a book that seems lighthearted and cute only to be taken aback upon discovering there is spice in the book that multiple booktubers failed to mention as they talked about how “cute” the book was. But I already spent the money on the books so now I feel like I have to read them. It’s to the point now as much as I hate to further the assumption that all of the social media popular books right now have spice; I have to assume they all have spice and try to do extra research to make sure I don’t buy a book I won’t enjoy. Anyways rant over! I subscribed ❤️

I don't read spice but I never clicked so fast. I love your analysis on bookish things!

I've been thinking this for a while. It is porn, and it's surprising how many proudly announce they love it and display it on their shelves. I personally feel like i can't read recently published books anymore because of how pervasive it is everywhere and i don't want to read spicy books. And it gets published more and more because there are certainly addicts out there. I hate the direction publishing is going. It feels taken over by these kinds of books. I've been lucky to find some booktubers who don't like to read spice as well and will warn us if a book does have any, but it's so rare.

@BooksBewteenStrangers

2 ай бұрын

Yes it could b porn but sex isn't new or bad. I have ya books n spicy books n both get displayed

Truthfully, I am here for tea. Thank you for making this video and we need more people calling out spice booktok, because those people are out of hand. I truly understand where that guy came from complaining about spice, because when I went on TikTok for diverse book recommendations (I saw your video on how to find diverse books and thank you for that) I was bombarded with spicy book recommendations!

Okay hear me out, I've spent my time with an addict. My father was real bad when it came to alcohol that he needed at least a few bottles daily, it was always concerning to me but I couldn't speak up about it, and I can confidently say booktok and "porn addiction" can be somewhat synonymous when it comes to the shit they've done. As you said, regardless of the consequences people will seek out this type of content in places where it normally wouldn't be seen. It happened with the Krakens and sports in general, it happened with the bikers, it happened with Dahmer for God's sake. No one would be looking for this type of stuff if people who sought out this type of stuff didn't BRING it there. Actually there's a real life example of this. Remember when people were bringing alcohol to Disneyland to disregard any restrictions and basically get around the pricing? This is what I mean, even if its screwing over a mega corperation there are genuine concerns of getting crunk in a public area with a lot of people. There is also a genuine concerns of having such a sexual prevalence on a public app thats extremely accessable to young teens and kids, even if its not their responsibility to moderate it, it is their responsibility to acknowledge this and know that this type of content will spread around as long as kids are seeing it. It doesn't matter if you're into it or not, moderation and acknowledgment is key when it comes to something like this.

@arkkon2740

2 ай бұрын

Okay, Imma point something out with this in case someone didn't fully get it. When I say "somewhat synonymous" I say whenever a new book comes up the VERY first thought is "is there spice?" This could be used as a procaution as well because people are getting too comfortable with adding this type of stuff into other genres, but its still weird to just ask that when the main demographic is no older than 18 sometimes. Speaking of numbers, people are feeding this machine that is what I call "all spice". Literally just adding this stuff to anything, it could be the smallest thing, as long as its part of community advertising people are ABSOLUTELY going to be including it. Thats what pays the bills for them, so thats what they're going to add, and its the fault of the people who search for spice in places where it normally did not exist. Its no different than making digital reskins 20+ dollars, people are attracted to this type of stuff and as long as you're paying more and more money it will continue to exist. You're paying for garbage, then when people dont like it there's a problem, thats the issue I have with this discourse. Hopefully I got my point across here because this situation kind of annoys me. There's too many parallels between books and videos games but IM THE ONLY ONE SAYING IT 🧍‍♂️

@arkkon2740

2 ай бұрын

Okay one more thing. Obsession is a very good word for this because there are SOOOOO many people who love this content and will die on the hill to the point where it grows another mile and a half. It stops becoming healthy when people start using sneak tactics to find their way into a younger or generally safer communities, and people within the community need to call it out. At the very least people are shitting on K. Webster now, but its far too late because age gap dark romance has evolved to the point where it visually attracts kids yet the content is the exact opposite, all of this because dark romance readers like the young, juvenile FMC thats just old enough to drink alcohol.

I don't have issue with Spice in books, I've read Spice and non-spice. I hate when I see recs promoting a book and a lot of the comments would be "spice?" I hate how people would dismiss a book if there's no smut, especially when it's the author promoting themselves on tiktok

dude was just being hyperbolic.. the people who are being defensive need to get over it imo. yes booktok is all about the spice, the steam, the smut .. We all know this. I don't watch tiktok and never will but it's no secret this is a thing.. I need book reviews that are longer than manic 30-60 second jump cut heavy trope "synopses". I don't read Romance and prefer no spice/steam/smut in all the other genres I read. . if other people want to read it... go ahead.. but be honest about it lol

That guy was so right about smut on romance books and how it's seeping into other genres. I can't stand sex scenes, but I love romance as a side plot to a main story and it is almost impossible to find anything at all that isn't full of smut scenes. Even if I read scifi or fantasy I have to look up before hand to make sure it doesn't have any explicit sex scenes or kinks thrown in out of nowhere. It's so frustrating. To each their own but keep to erotica and stop shoving smut into every single book.

I really don’t understand why people don’t just call out weirdos for harassing others and then move on because I don’t think others reading spice or smut is erasing all the books that do not have them.

@27:16 YES SHELLEY! TALK ABOUT IT! I personally prefer reading books with no spice! I feel like because of the demand, spice is EVERYWHERE. Even in historical fiction and young adult books 😭It's really not about policing spicy books, it's about what the demand for spice is doing to literature as a whole.

they said his video was "harmful" 😂

Saw a few videos on this manner. Sadly on the app for engagement (I stream) but so glad I stay away from the fyp and this side of it. Alot of hypocritical behavior, but I do understand and agree with your points. We are a hot mess on the internet! Will it ever change? Probably not. Also, I love the hair!

Lol she calling us out ! *adds 30 books in 30 days to queue*

Never been on book tok but I kinda live for the tea now

@shelleys.corner

2 ай бұрын

Looool there's been a lot of it lately

I've been watching them! 😅 Please don't drag us! 🤣🤣🤣

On the topic of cutesy cartoon covers. Bride by Ali Hazelwood. When I saw the cover I thought it was a cute paranormal ya. Boy! was I wrong.

@shelleys.corner

Ай бұрын

They really pull you in and leave you fully bamboozled

Gotta love how KZread censored language is online speak? X

The cover thing with books is because people who read them don’t want to be seen as sex addict so the publishing companies heard people wanting to read spicy books in public so they made the cartoon covers so people are more comfortable reading on trains, public transport , at the beach , at the doctors office, ect without needing a e reader

I have to agree with that young man with the first TikTok, I left booktok because I don’t want to recommend certain books to very young readers. I’m a mom and I wouldn’t want some strange adult online suggesting these highly sexually inappropriate books to my very impressionable children, BUT I also think parents need to keep their children off of social media apps, because there are a lot of things that aren’t appropriate for young minds on there. I hate these cartoon covers, I only think cartoon covers should be for YA, some of these books marketed don’t look like they are targeted toward adults, so of course the parents aren’t going to know that the book cover is very misleading. This is why all books with sex on page/open door romances should have a parental advisory label on the back, so parents can look and see if they want to buy their minor child a book like that. When there used to be clinch/sexy covers, you used to know exactly what kind of book you were getting into. I knew this was going to happen as soon as those cartoon covers got popular. A proper cover story is how you distinguish what type of book you are getting into. I’ve been seeing a ton of young people who are rejecting these highly sexually explicit books and you know what? Good for them. I’m proud that they are speaking up and telling others that they aren’t comfortable with what’s in the book. Of course these young people are going to call it smut or corn, because they aren’t an avid romance reader, so they don’t know what’s the proper terms for these books. These grown adults need to leave these youngsters alone.

omg so glad to see so many sane people here in the comments! 😅

I love reading a spicy book you can't to wrong with a mix of drama and romance.

you are soooo right about the spicy booktok community! i feel like books can provide us with education and entertainment, and i don't blame people who want to just relax and read something entertaining (me too!), but let's be real, spicy books are just corn in book format. nobody ever talks about the plot; it's all about how spicy it is and how hot the characters are and so on. and some people are ONLY reading spice. so if someone told me they watch corn every single day, all days of the year, i'd think they're a corn addict too...

@sao-me1lt

2 ай бұрын

This!

I'll caution about the school library argument. The last thing we need is to provide more fuel to book banners out there. I get your point but maybe proceed with caution in how it's presented.

@arkkon2740

2 ай бұрын

I feel like this are veeeeery different things given how they immediately backed out as soon as someone brought up the bible

@brightsoull

2 ай бұрын

There is a very very very very large difference between mause getting banned and *insert book about abusive rapist love interest with C tier writing* getting banned, sure we should push back against unreasonable book banning which are abundant nowadays, but banishing these books to the adult or erotica section is a very reasonable act

I agree with you on all points. But can I just say,You are up in arms about this cause your 3 accents are insane and I'm here for it. #newsub

@shelleys.corner

2 ай бұрын

I barely notice when my accent changes anymore especially in fits of passion 😭😭

I'm not on booktok but yes I'm here for more booktubers talking about booktok lol. Subscribing!!

I read horror and classic and lore books. I thought those made up a lot of the booktok since thats my whole library. But when I entered Booktok…..i thought i was on another website or even an illegal website with the amount of illegal touchy crimes

I believe there is some truth to what this guy said. I can judge for myself: last year I experienced a major reading slump. I couldn’t find anything that interested me, until by chance, flipping through the Goodreads lists, I came across a title that seemed vaguely familiar. It was a taboo m/m romance that I heard about out of the blue a couple of years ago. Out of boredom, I opened the book and two months later I found myself unable to read a book to the end unless it was a spicy dark romance. All the other books seemed endlessly boring to me. And, honestly, I saw this as a problem. Because most of these books could hardly be called good even by any stretch of the imagination. I've had food addiction issues in the past and I noticed a lot of similarities. That’s why now I try to read no more than one or two spicy books a month. On the topic of covers: until five years ago, in my country, it was mandatory to put an 18+ mark directly on the cover of books that contain adult material. Therefore, you could not confuse the age category even if the cover looked like it was for a child/teenager. I remember many books containing scenes of sex or violence were sold sealed in transparent plastic with a bold 18+ sticker on top. So a child or teenager could not accidentally open this book and read something not intended for them. But now everything has changed, and to find out the content and age category, the book needs to be opened to read the disclaimer/tw. Yes, these marks spoiled the beautiful cover design, but you knew this book was not for children.

At this point I will stick to danmei and BL.... What's wrong with spice in different settings? Maybe thats why Danmei and BL is so good since it have wide range of sub genre. I just learn Y/A have smut, and now I get it it's really inappropriate. 💀

@kurokura8379

2 ай бұрын

i also enjoy danmei a lot despite not liking most romance books. 😅 i think it's because, like you mentioned, there is a lot of sub genres. A lot of them are part of the xianxia subgenre but others like Zhen Hun by priest are detective thrillers. i also don't care about spice that much and i don't have a strong opinion on it. however, it's gross to write something like that into your story and purposefully target and market that book to YA audiences. of course teenagers are going to read anything they want and it's hard to restrict that, but going out of one's way to show these books to them is predatory.

@Numbll

2 ай бұрын

@@kurokura8379 I'm quite shocked that they purposely made their book Y/A. It's just wrong on another level. I thought Y/A was like just kissing and holding hands like not even make-out. 😂

I definitely agree with you about spicy booktok being the one to insert themselves in other communities. Honestly tho I understand the defensiveness and the assumption of misogyny, even if he didn’t mean it, and I’m not even a big romance reader. Erotica has been a valid literary genre for centuries, and if anything the problem nowadays is that lot of modern romance erotica is just badly written lol. But writing off simple sex scenes in general or romance fiction as “porn addiction” implies not taking erotica as a genre seriously, which is his opinion he’s allowed to have but I think it’s expected people will push back on it. Porn is more prevalent and harmful as an exploitative industry like pornhub stealing from sex workers in my opinion, not from some vanilla erotica becoming popular on tiktok lol

I used to read spicy stories, particularly on Radish. But i think those ebooks did me a favor of pushing me _away_ from spice and smut in general because it was *constant* . Theres 1,000+ chapter ebooks on there thats just blatantly for the smut. Every chapter. Little plot progression. It became so mind numbing and mentally exhausting. Every cliche, every possible spicy activity possible. It really just made me so sick of books that include smut. Good romance books are so hard to find cuz the sex is the goal. Its instant sexual attraction between two characters instead of the slow build up of an actual relationship. I finally found a sweet non spicy story and the progression of the love between the characters had me smiling! It was beautiful. Spice needs to be in its own category so its not pulling teeth to find a genuine romance novel. I take recommendations!!

Yes

@shelleys.corner

2 ай бұрын

Lool straight talk no chaser

This already happened a few years ago. I'm not going to give dumb people any more of my time

At this point I completely avoid mainsteam, western adult fiction because I can't stand ""spice""...

I have some problems with booktok, specifically the spicy part. Mostly of sexualizing real men and taking that to far. Example, The Pucking around, Seattle Krakens situation. I also remember Taylor Lautner talking about what it felt like to have women older then him, sexualizing him and the after effects. This is not a problem with the genre, but a problem with the community of women who don't have boundaries. That being said, I get where they are coming from with the misogyny criticism. Erotica is a subgenre of romance. These books are sex over plot and they have been around since the dawn of damn time and while filmed pornography has been for the male viewer, erotic books have been a place for women to explore their fantasies without the stigma the porn industry has ( Mind you, erotic novels did still have some stigma. Now we are in the 21st centaury and women are able to talk about these things out loud. Also, things that are generally targeted for women tend to be belittled or looked down upon as lesser then more traditional (and male dominated) spaces or works. SO when some dude, takes a peak into a community and decides, unprompted to make it the butt of a joke. Not cool. I get why him making those jokes hits a nerve. Also, it's wasn't a great joke. Now, I am not a spicy romance girl. I actually prefer booktube over booktok because it's easier to find people talking about my beloved low spice fantasies and I don't think that recognizing the underlying issues with his joke negate the problematic behaviors of a portions of the spicy book community, I don't think their frustration was wrong, even if their actions might have been to much.

I reqd spice or ya n others. Who cares if there is spice

That video is so LOL. Are people that bored with their lives? 🤣🤣🤣 It's really not that serious. If anything they should focus on the behavior of the people who take their enjoyment of spicey books too far in real life. That has consequences. And I agree that the word "addiction" should not be used lightly.

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At this point, I see adding spice is a way to get my foot in the publishing door. Poorly written first-draft-writing books are getting multi-book deals. I'd rather try my hand being a spicy book with a consistent plot and vice versa. A quality story can survive with some spice, let the spice get us the bag

1. To the people who were trying to call him sexist for "trying to police women's sexuality": Yes, patriarchy DOES exist and men CAN be sexist about thing women enjoy, but this is NOT that. He didn't even call out women specifically. He used gender neutral language the whole time. Words like "people" and "somebody" but never anything like "women" or "ladies." He Might have had women in mind when talking about booktok, we don't know, but to assume that he was just talking about us afab people is honestly kind of sexist in and of itself. Maybe not in the same way but still. Men can read smut and romance just like women can and to assume that they just don't is dismissive and alienating to the men and those who identify as men who DO read all the same books you do. 2. While I won't defend the content, specifically, of books like Haunting Adeline, I WILL defend their right to exist as fiction. Specifically and Especially because it IS fiction. Just like any other fiction about any other topic, dark/taboo romance is a way for people to explore their identity, kinks/fetishes, and sexuality in a safe environment. Just because you're reading a story about someone getting it on with an octopus or one with consensual non-consent doesn't mean you want either of those things to happen irl. Not to mention there's plenty of people who use fiction as a way to cope with past experiences/trauma that they otherwise wouldn't have a healthy outlet for. That's not to say I think we should particularly iift up and celebrate these stories (Definitely not if they tackle their subject matter poorly) but that we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss and/or vilify the entire genre outright just because they may squick us out. That's the kind of excuse book banners use in order to justify banning books that have a single gay and/or trans person in there.

I'm sorry I want to know where you got your information about authors feeling compelled to write spice? Because I'm an emerging author in a non-romance genre and that's simply NOT what I've encountered. And I've not heard any other author I talked to say this. So where did this come up?

A 500 page romance book. There's more than just spice. Even if it's a big part of it. And if we're talking about nuance, there's probably a nuance between porn and erotica as well. But hey. It's your opinion. I don't agree with all that you've said (I'm absolutely with you on harassing people, being inappropriate with minors on that godforsaken app, etc, etc,), but it is true that nuance is lost. No matter what discourse errupts from spicy booktok, and maybe not all criticism, but a lot of it has some roots in mysoginy (internalized or not). Let's not pretend, like some lauded male fantasy and horror authors out there haven't written/published some unhinged shit. But hey. Apparently it's different if it's written by and for women. As I said. Nuance.....and psychology behind the appeal of books like haunting adeline. Anyways, this topic is getting ridiculously inflated, and we should all cool down a bit. XD Personally I don't mind to read it from time to time. Balance is key ;)

Not him name dropping Pride and Prejudice while acting all holier than thou 😒 (nothing wrong with P&P but it came off as pretentious given the context)

@shelleys.corner

2 ай бұрын

I see what you mean, but I don't think he was trying to be pretentious. I think it’s standard for a lot of people when they first get into reading to think to start with the classics. Pride and Prejudice was actually one of the first books I read when I got into reading as well.

i don't think it's wrong at all to say that the OP's video did have misogynistic undertones. while the convo is definitely more nuanced than people attacking him are saying, it's also way more nuanced that everything he said in that video, because his main focus was "why so much porn??" in a judgmental tone without making a genuine critique. i don't have tiktok, so i don't know if he's had a more nuanced response more recently that focuses on the actual problems with such high demand for smut in published lit

Now I’m not on TickTock but… I’m also don’t really get riled up about simple stuff 🤷🏼‍♀️ I’m still trying to figure out if it’s a real app called booktock 😂 I LOVE my spicy romance book. But I read all sorts except age gap (t think that’s just a link to child corn) my opinion. I think it’s just about when you are looking for a new car or new shoes, you look 👀 for what you are interested in and ignore what you are not interested in🤷🏼‍♀️ for those with certain sensitivities, the explosion of “spicy” romance books and subsequent readers who are now expressing themselves. I say that you have to take content creators and their “opinions” with a grain of salt. You don’t like spicy books, fine. Don’t read them🤷🏼‍♀️ simple. But stop bashing people who do.

@shelleys.corner

2 ай бұрын

I'm not necessarily bashing people who like spice, but if you've been on the booktok space, you'll know that what you've said is not how things work. Spicy booktok will literally go into spaces that have nothing to do with spice and will try to turn the conversation in that direction. So people who don't want spice can't avoid it or just ignore it as you think. I've explained in the video how they go into random videos and 'summon the booktokers'. So it's not about bashing, but about correcting ill behaviour.

@lisabell3624

2 ай бұрын

@@shelleys.corner I’m not in the space so I didn’t know what is going on. I’m not trying to be obtuse. As someone who is an avid reader but not in those social media spaces, it’s strange to me that spicy book advocates are invading non-spicy sections to “covert the masses so to speak”. If they are, then they need to be aware that there will be repercussions if they come with BS. There are always people who will bully their way into situations where they don’t belong. No one should be bullied for not wanting to be overwhelmed with genres they are interested in because it’s the flavor of the moment.

@shelleys.corner

2 ай бұрын

@lisabell3624 yea the social media spaces can be a bit wild, so you're not missing out there. It does allow lots of opportunities for creating and joining communities, so not all bad, but when it comes to reprimanding those doing wrong like you said, it can be a bit tricky 😅 Let's hope for the best moving forward 😊

I dont think you have the range and/or the experience and/or did enough research to discuss any of this meaningfully. It all stayed very surface level and it's a shame.

@shelleys.corner

2 ай бұрын

This was literally an opinion piece, and as it is my page, it is my opinion based on my observations and experience. Nowhere on this page did I state this was a peer reviewed piece, so that's your own

@moustik31

2 ай бұрын

@@shelleys.corner Yeah and I gave mine on yours. That's how this works.