You should whenever possible avoid anthropomorphizing plants and animals. They hate it when you do that.

@Skyypixelgamer

Жыл бұрын

With animals it highly depends on the species(like only the highly intelligent ones). But the common rule for all species is to never hold them up to human standards as that isn’t what helps you survive in the wild.

@EloMac

Жыл бұрын

omg i get it

@Ridcally

Жыл бұрын

Cause they're speciest

@Skyypixelgamer

Жыл бұрын

@SabrinaStromzalez I don’t get how this is a r/woosh moment. They had sarcasm in their comment but I’m pretty sure with both agree on the matter.

@SableLeaf

Жыл бұрын

@@Skyypixelgamer *swoosh*

Many people dont know that the reason fruit trees evolved to be so appetizing to herbivores is because they're masochists that LOVE the pain

@SnailHatan

Жыл бұрын

Now I know why all of my girlfriends have looked like pears

@LANSl0t

Жыл бұрын

thats kinda hot i should eat more fruit

@dudefrombelgium

Жыл бұрын

Now we know why it's called "forbidden fruit"

@Drekromancer

Жыл бұрын

@@SnailHatan Incredibly based comment.

@Catfish2048

Жыл бұрын

Is this sarcasm?

It's amazing how people range from "fish don't feel pain!" to "plants scream in literal agony!"

@exalderan

Жыл бұрын

Fish do likely feel pain though. At least they would benefit from it. Pain would make them avoid a behavior that previously led to an injury or tell them which body parts to protect better since they are vulnerable or simple what part not to move so it can heal better. Plants however, well they cant even move, what good would pain do them? It would just cost energy telling them nothing of value since they cant act on it.

@Homiloko2

Жыл бұрын

People can be dumb in both sides of the spectrum. Quite amazing.

@Dunge0n

Жыл бұрын

Somethin' in the way.... Mmmm Mmmm...

@InvertedBeans

Жыл бұрын

Fr frrrrr- people be su dumb these days- nearly half the time I’m smh in disappointment- EVERY DAY

@onewingedangel9189

Жыл бұрын

​​@@exalderan that's why the comment brought up the fish, as an opposite and equally wrong idea, not to support it.

I cant believe I got clickbaited into watching a guy explaining the most obvious thing that plants doesnt feel pain - but doing it in such a detailed and entertaining way I keep watching

@TheBackpackingBiologist

Жыл бұрын

Haha best compliment ever

@jamesmaybrick2001

11 ай бұрын

Ha! I won. I suspected clickbait and spent far longer than the video runs reading the comments to find a comment like yours so i dont have to watch the video! I am a genius! er....big brain me. And no way would i be gullible as to succumb further to the baityclickyness and leave a comment and a like for the algorythm god. Independent thinker me!

@matthewfors114

11 ай бұрын

@@jamesmaybrick2001 you get a rube goldberg award sir. carry on

@user-ce1cu5my4j

11 ай бұрын

Turns out it's not that obvious for some

@__En__

11 ай бұрын

'had us in the first half ngl'

As a bonsai artist, here's my perspective. If cutting grass is plants screaming, why don't we scream when we get our hair cut? Simple, no pain receptors. Does our hair grow back? Of course. What does pruning do to a plant? Stimulate growth. It responds by growing more leaves, which means more surface area for photosynthesis. What happens when you trim the roots of a plant? Stimulates more fibrous roots, which increases the health of the plant. As for wiring the plant, what happens when you exercise or work out in the gym? Micro-tears occur in the muscle fiber and the body responds by repairing the damaged tissue and building stronger muscles. Why would we do this to ourselves? To get stronger. What happens when you wire a branch and bend it? The same thing. The branch responds by increasing vascular tissue, which increases the flow of nutrients back and forth from roots to leaves and vice versa. Final thoughts: not all damage is bad. We damage our bodies every day, and they try to repair itself. Plants experience damage every day from nature, and they grow back. They also die of diseases, just like we do. However, we can't grow body parts back. Bonsai isn't plant torture. It's a relationship between man and nature. I have learned more about plant behavior from bonsai than sitting in a biology class. BTW, several of my bonsai are over a decade old and flourishing.

@sunnuntaiselori1927

Жыл бұрын

Only problem is that hair is not alive. Once hair is out of skin it's dead matter. It's the same with our nails. It's more akin for a tree having a dry dead branch and it falling off or you taking it away. I would find a new example to use because it's not the same as cutting grass. Sure plants go through stimulation when damaged and if done with care and purpose you can make wonders happen. Well done pruning is one thing but messed up job can kill the plant. Even when done well it's really stressfull experience. Some plants don't care how much they are damaged and some say bye at the slighest touch. Plants have a huge kingdom and are not a monolith. We know plants have a stress reaction so they react to damage and to envoirmental stressors. Plants also signal with each other and fungus, to trade materials or warn about bugs etc. What do you define as pain and discomfort? I'm not saying you shouldn't do bonsai or cut grass and so on, but i would say we are inficting "pain" when doing so. Plants are very complex and even more so social plants. They are not animals and should not be treated with same rules. But i'd argue they have a sense of being and with that comes happiness and sadness, however that would be felt in their case. I have happened to study hair dressing and gardening. Something about cutting bushes i guess :'D

@furball7u748

Жыл бұрын

​@@sunnuntaiselori1927💀

@AD-dg3zz

Жыл бұрын

​@@sunnuntaiselori1927🤡

@onewingedangel9189

Жыл бұрын

​@@sunnuntaiselori1927pain is a very specific feeling that is evolutionary costly. Why feel something that could completely disable you due to the intensity when a less extreme noxious stimuli would work just as well? A bad smell, an itch, and semi extreme temperatures cause us stress, but typically not pain. While yes, cutting stresses a plant, they show no signs of pain that many completely unrelated groups of animals share.

@miloradvlaovic

Жыл бұрын

But the plants don't come along, rip me out of the house and force me to live inside a gym untill I'm a massive bodybuilder. False equivalence there. While Bonsai is nowhere near the worst we're doing to plants every day it's still absurdly selfish. In terms of ethics it's very much unethical too.

Pain benefits those who can learn is such an amazing quote out of context!

@TheBackpackingBiologist

Жыл бұрын

I like the way you think!

@uncletiggermclaren7592

Жыл бұрын

It sounds like something a Sensei would say.

@AstaNozan

Жыл бұрын

'Spare the rod, spoil the child' makes better sense now...because if you dont 'beat' your child, the world will 'beat' him for you, in many more ways

@dopaminecloud

Жыл бұрын

Except the only reason there is anything to learn is because pain exists. All knowledge is built on the foundation of avoiding pain. A problem that justifies itself obviously remains unjustified. All pain experienced was an avoidable tragedy. All pain caused an irredeemable crime.

@NealBones

Жыл бұрын

As someone born with a debilitating form of arthritis and a love for learning, no. Awful quote. Pain sucks when it's the only thing you can focus on from sun up to sun down

It's oddly liberating and comforting to think that we experience pain for primarily the purpose of our own benefit, feeling pain makes us live better lives

@cvdinjapan7935

Жыл бұрын

Pain and pleasure activate the same areas of the brain. Your brain wants stability. This is why too much pleasure eventually becomes painful, and too much pain eventually becomes pleasant. This is because your body eventually produces the opposite effect in your brain to stabilize your mental state.

@SnailHatan

Жыл бұрын

@@cvdinjapan7935boy, I sure love pseudoscience.

@j-rex229

Жыл бұрын

​@@cvdinjapan7935"too much pain eventually becomes pleasant" uhhh, i think that's just you dude

@higgsbonbon

Жыл бұрын

​@@cvdinjapan7935Please don't share your sadomasochistic fantasies with us. I have IBS cramps and they're never, ever pleasant.

@LimitLost

Жыл бұрын

@@j-rex229 I think they mean that we stop caring, eventually

Here is a trick about the process used to shape bonsai into twisted forms.... Trees will actually do this to themselves if they encounter obsticles in nature while growing. They will twist around themselves, objects, and even devour something inside of themselves over time by growing around it to the extent that it becomes engulfed.

@YUN6_V3NUZ

Жыл бұрын

i wish to be consumed

@imahumanbutichosetobeapota5479

Жыл бұрын

@@YUN6_V3NUZ tell that to your partner and they will happily do it

@imahumanbutichosetobeapota5479

Жыл бұрын

@@YUN6_V3NUZ nice content but i can't understand the language

@xecron9116

Жыл бұрын

@@YUN6_V3NUZ The only plant that would satisfy your urges would be the Bamboo plant, but you'll have to wait hours or even days to receive that gratification

@crazydragy4233

Жыл бұрын

@@xecron9116 I don't think consuming is the same as inpaling bud

As a retired biologist who did his undergrad specializing in botany, my hat goes off to you sir. Subbed.

@TheBackpackingBiologist

11 ай бұрын

Thank you so much! We’re basically family 😂🙌🏾

@GBazo-en5el

10 ай бұрын

You included crabs as an animal that has nociception, care to explain how they manage that without nociceptors?@@TheBackpackingBiologist

I really like how he responded with a long detailed explanation in a video, rather than just saying "no, they don't feel pain". People that anthropomorphize plants probably won't listen to such a simple answer. But mainly, I enjoy learning exactly why things happen in this world and how.

@Allustar

11 ай бұрын

Those people don’t seem to listen regardless. They still just want to believe that plants feel pain and that bonsai is a bad practice even though it’s not.

@paulogaspar8295

11 ай бұрын

he didn't answered it correctly and he actually lied in some instances. Plants to avoid distress and to tend to seek experiences with positive reinforcement by creating hormonal chemicals that make those changes in their own bodies. Exactly like pain in animals. Pain are hormones created by your own brain after a stimuli that influence how your own body (and mind) adapts to that stimuli. plants to seek sunny areas and tend to grow in that direction, that can only happen if they have a system that responds to a positive feedback loop. They also avoid growing in stressful areas to their body (for example if they are constantly being cut in a part of their body they tend to not constantly grow at the same rate in that area to avoid being cut again). This adaptation is literally the same as pain in animals. You have a negative feedback that creates hormones that influence how you will act to that stimuli both physically and mentally. So yes plants do feel pain, but it's in a completely different way that humans and animals cannot perceive.

@ThePandafriend

11 ай бұрын

@@paulogaspar8295 Please read a book on the basics of biology. Stressing a plant leads to certain genes getting triggered and thus certain proteins are built in larger numbers and those will trigger a reaction. They don't "avoid" anything. The mechanisms are simply triggered in a way which leads to the mentioned result.

@peterisawesomeplease

11 ай бұрын

A long detailed explanation full of misleading and factually incorrect information.

@Ross-mz2xs

11 ай бұрын

@@paulogaspar8295 Once again, you people are anthropomorphizing plants. Just because plants avoid situations that are damaging to them does not mean they feel pain, it just means that evolutionary processes have provided them with ways to counter these situations. Pain is not just any response to negative stimuli. No one is arguing that plants don’t react to being harmed. You are pointing out that plants react to being harmed and act like this is proof they feel pain, which is where you are anthropomorphizing them. What he did say in the video, however, is that pain is an instant response designed to get an instant reaction. If an organism can’t instantly react, then it makes no sense for it to feel pain. Oh, and pain isn’t a hormonal response in humans, that would be too slow.

"There's nothing done to a bonsai that it wouldn't encounter out in the wild." That's probably the most generally effective message to show people how bonsai isn't torturous for plants.

@hiiambarney4489

11 ай бұрын

To be fair, in the wild, things that happen to trees and plants is probably way, way worse.

@tbk2010

11 ай бұрын

Nature is cruel. While to a degree we inflict pain on non-human beings when using them for labor, entertainment or food (which I agree we should avoid as much as possible, *especially* in the case of entertainment), you have to keep in mind they would probably endure similar or worse in the wild.

@MayTheSchwartzBeWithYou

11 ай бұрын

Animals regularly get eaten alive in the wild. Does that mean it's not torture to eat a cow or pig alive?

@azzthund1500

11 ай бұрын

​@@hiiambarney4489You are 100% correct. In bonsai we are afraid and often baby our trees making sure we don't stress them out too much, protect them in winters, give them all the water and fertiliser they need, bend them gently etc. Meanwhile in nature they're blasted by the elements, crushed by other fallen trees/branches , eaten by animals and pests etc. This is literally why yamadori (collected trees) are always the best bonsai. They're so crazy and cool looking that only nature can make them that amazing.

@rupert909

11 ай бұрын

This is silly... Animals suffer horrible fates in the wild... Just because this is true doesn't make it okay to inflict these fates on animals yourself... And it doesn't make it not torturous...

“Why not grow something you can eat or smoke?” Bonsai techniques are actually super useful for cannabis cultivation, it lets you maintain lots of small mother plants which you take cuttings from. This let’s you keep genetics alive (seeds are genetic siblings rather than genetically identical) so if you have a really great plant you can grow a connabonsai from its cuttings and grow a bunch more of it from cuttings of the mother cannabonsai. Then you can keep lots of these cause their smaller and require less water and you can build out a library of genetics in a small place like a closet. This is theoretically useful for food as well, especially if a plant has lots of unique recessive traits that are preferable and would be difficult to breed traditionally

@kimdavis2433

11 ай бұрын

Fascinating! Thank you for sharing

@jessehunter362

11 ай бұрын

It's not just theoretically useful for food, it's downright essential to the cultivation of many foods! Apples, pears, most stonefruits, bananas, avocados, potatoes, all seedless fruits, and many more are entirely or primarily reliant on vegetative propagation. This can lead to disease risk, but is important in selecting for good tasting and high producing fruits.

Aristotle's teleological ethics would say that bonsai trees are unethical because one is preventing the sapling from reaching its full potential or full size. So you can't torture a plant, but you may potentially "torture" a plant's potential or purpose by constraining its amount of soil. I don't personally agree with this ethic but it's interesting to think about. I like thinking about environmental ethics, such as Leopold's land ethic (I love Leopold!), because it connects me with nature and tells me what to do with the science we learn. I like your bottom line because it is so important for people to connect with nature in our modernized world.

@johnmichaelrutherford3514

Жыл бұрын

By that logic, trees growing in extreme conditions like up high on mountains or near tge edges of large bodies of water or off the edge of cliffs are restricting the tree in turn from reaching its fullest potential.

@TheBackpackingBiologist

Жыл бұрын

That is an interesting take! I don't think anyone is gonna fight you that bonsai is restricting their full potential. I just looked up Leopold's land ethic and I like what I see so far, gonna read more about it. Thanks for sharing and commenting! I appreciate you

@TheBackpackingBiologist

Жыл бұрын

I’ve pondered this as well, and I think the difference is intention. Mountains, cliffs, etc don’t intend to stunt the tree. The tree just so happened to plant it’s roots there and grew. Bonsai has the intention to restrict. You can argue that there are mature trees in a forest that intentionally shade out saplings, which could mean they are nerfing these tiny trees, BUT it’s also a fact that these mature trees feed small shaded saplings as well. I can’t think of a natural occurrence where something intentionally restricts the growth of a tree. But that could me I need to read more 🤷🏾‍♂️

@TheBackpackingBiologist

Жыл бұрын

@@johnmichaelrutherford3514 i replied to this below, dont know why it didn't tag you in the beginning

@johnmichaelrutherford3514

Жыл бұрын

@@TheBackpackingBiologist I know, I saw it. I think your assessment is fair but I feel mine is more correct especially when you loom at trees growing under certain conditions that are forced to stay small to survive.

This was really interesting! I grew up apologising to plants if I “hurt” them. In my family, we still do this. But I’ve never really looked into the science of it. Thank you 🙏

@TheBackpackingBiologist

Жыл бұрын

I still do that too! Part of respecting nature is understanding we are part of it, and I think talking to plants, apologizing to them, and even asking permission to pick fruit/harvest is part of it. These are things our ancestors did, so I wouldn’t change a thing. I think people should do what makes them feel connected to nature, and that can be different for everyone. Some people want to try bonsai, some people might want to garden, to me it’s all good :) Thanks for watching!

@Teuwufel

Жыл бұрын

While they do not feel pain, it's unnecessary to damage them with no purpose and reduce their chances of further growth. (Bonsai is kind-of different, when you understand how to care for a plant and not mutilate it) So I think respecting them and showing sympathy is a very good thing. Keep your humanity, you're great :)

@Cute___E

11 ай бұрын

🥺🥺🥺

@xiRePeNTx

11 ай бұрын

Bruhhh i do that too 💀 and no one taught me to do that

@bable6314

11 ай бұрын

@@TheBackpackingBiologist That's definitely not something our ancestors did.

Wait they CAN'T feel pain? Dammit that's why I wanted to get into bonsai in the first place

@lemondrop8203

11 ай бұрын

Someone lock up this guy before he start testing on people

One of the things I learned in undergrad Biology is that for a creature to "feel" pain, it needs nerve endings and a brain to process that stimulus. Plants have neither. The most similar system they have to humans is a capillary system so they can transport water ans nutrients from the soil to the leaves like how the human body have a circulatory system to transport oxygen from our lungs to everywhere else in our body.

Hey man, fellow biologist here. Your first banzai tree vid was in my recommended feed, and I’m so thankful I gave it a watch. Now I’m hooked to your content! Just wanted to say I highly appreciate how you format and present your content. You are super engaging while also maintaining professionalism and intelligence, while backing all of your claims with referenced research, as well as real world applications of the themes discussed. Rare traits to find in the mysterious realm of KZread! Please have my subscription, you’ve earned it!

@TheBackpackingBiologist

Жыл бұрын

I appreciate you! Thanks for watching and subbing!

@raccoonchild

Жыл бұрын

Banzai 🤣

@dildobaggins8987

11 ай бұрын

Bonsai…..

@vehicleboi5598

11 ай бұрын

@@raccoonchildbanzai trees fell onto american troops when they were triggered, killing the banzai tree for the survival and glory of imperial japan. their bark was rigged with explosives that detonated upon impact.

@raccoonchild

11 ай бұрын

@@vehicleboi5598 Stop 😂😂

I wanted to see you struggle to pull the axe out of the tree, just as you were stating it cannot fight back. 😅 I have had so many injuries from pruning accidents, especially from thorny plants.

@TheBackpackingBiologist

Жыл бұрын

🤣 that would've been something! Similarly to you, I've had one too many accidents with this ax for me to mess again

The way you "argue" is the right way. No anger, just the want to express the truth to those who were unfortunately enough to believe lies. The way it should be done but unfortunately is hard to learn how to (or have the mental restraint to do so).

Some plants have actually evolved to be fire retardant like you mentioned briefly. The longleaf pine is one of them, which is prominent in Southern US. They have a very long growing stage, 9 years, in the small form. This is because the tree will be low enough where a fire could not kill the tree. Once 9 years is up, it will rapidly grow in a period of months to get tall enough to ensure it won't burn down from a fire. There is a period during those several months of rapid growing where it is in danger of burning from the fire because the heat of fire changes depending where one is in the fire. Low enough = no burn, high enough = no burn, middle = burn.

@chillstorm2341

11 ай бұрын

Speedrun strats.

@vehicleboi5598

11 ай бұрын

basically they're trees that are born to have puberty directly hit them like a 747 at full speed

@jessied3210

8 ай бұрын

Great point! Eucalyptus trees in Australia evolved to be highly flammable because fires are crucial to germinate a lot of native bush plants! That's one of the reasons fires are so scary here, the eucalyptus oil is basically explosive, and the fires burn incredibly hot. Great for the plants, but humans have certainly has a hard time adapting down here.

Not only are we becoming far too disconnected and careless with the natural world around us, but as for what little care most give, it seems to be completely spur-of-the-moment emotion and sentimentality driven reactionism, with little thought or self awareness given at all. Some folks will seriously sit at their computer screen taking to the comments to call bonsai unnatural torture while chowing down on their McNuggets, paying no mind to the torturous and unnatural conditions the chicken suffered.

@neetocracy

Жыл бұрын

idk man maybe the one coming up with vague references to non existent people to fit a bias is "disconnected" lel

@smeggiamagarwine

Жыл бұрын

​@@neetocracyare you denying that this happens?

@delos2279

Жыл бұрын

Wondering how many of those plant torture accusations are serious. Otherwise I agree, stop worrying about plants that do not have a neurological capacity for suffering and start worrying about animals that do have that capacity, including chickens, or other humans for that matter.

@historicalaccuracy15

Жыл бұрын

@@neetocracy "vague reference to nonexistent people" oh so I suppose the commenters this video talked about as well as the many reactionaries and hypocrites I personally know are all made up fictions to suit a bias. Hmmmhm, okay, whatever you say Mr.InternetRandoKnowsItAll#9702

@petscraftsandwonderfulthin1279

Жыл бұрын

Then people spend so much time thinking about how to save the chickens, they forget to give a thought to all the suffering humans in the world.

I love plants. I love long treks through forests. I love sleeping under the canopies of trees. But I also show my love through cutting down dead trees, prescribed burning, or just plucking the weeds in my yard. Excellent video.

@TheBackpackingBiologist

Жыл бұрын

Amazing man. Respect comes in many forms 💪🏾 I’m very intrigued with prescribed burnings. I’m planning on making a future episode on it. Wish we did it more in California. Thanks for watching!

@fuckoff5893

Жыл бұрын

@@TheBackpackingBiologistCalifornia could seriously curb its wildfire problem if they did do controlled burns. It’s insane that they don’t(or not enough). Here in the south, essentially every land owner does them yearly.

"Pain benefits those who can learn" that quote goes unbelievably hard

Dude, I'm not even 2 minutes in yet and I'm getting a nostalgic vibe from literally just the format of this video. It feels just like watching an old Bill Nye the Science Guy episode, just less aimed specifically at young kids. Not quite so fast-paced, fewer silly noises, but a hint of the same comedic style and similar back-and-forth between "whiteboard explanation" and "in-the-field demonstration" segments. I love it!

@TheBackpackingBiologist

11 ай бұрын

Thanks! I loved Bill growing up. He and Steve Irwin influenced me to be the person I am today!

Our own perception of pain and stress as only bad seems as a major point of origin for this discussion. Exercise is self induced stress and can even be a little painful, would any reasonable person say exercise is bad? I believe that experiencing hardship and overcoming it usually makes us better than who we were before.

@james__anna_burns4885

Жыл бұрын

to be fair, exercise also releases endorphins that make you feel good after you exercise

@edenisok894

Жыл бұрын

Bro fr like also. HAVE PEOPLE NOT HEARD OF PRUNING? “Cutting off limbs” the fuck? Then why is the plant growing stronger overall after having its “limbs” cut off? Its not the same as animals, if there was an animal equivalent hydra that grows more powerful each time you cut the head off.

@Sara3346

11 ай бұрын

@@james__anna_burns4885 only after a certain amount that I think varies by person. Thought "runners high" was a myth till I was about 20.

I always hated science in school but your vidoes have made me super super interested in biology

@TheBackpackingBiologist

11 ай бұрын

So happy to hear that! Thank you!

@fransthefox9682

11 ай бұрын

Schools have a talent for making even epic historical battles sound incredibly boring.

Hey TBB, this is really excellent video-making and I'm happy and surprised to be stumbling across it randomly. The thought and craft you've put into making this clear , educational, and entertaining is apparent. As an anecdote, I did coral reef research as an undergraduate, and I remember finding my PI furious one day over the way a recent paper had been reported. The paper found that the nighly movement of microorganisms brought an upswell of cooler water, and this had a measurable effect on Sea Surface Temperatures. The was it was reported? "Plankton May Hold Key to Solve Global Warming?" This was in 2010. In many ways, things have only gotten worse. But on the other hand, now there are thousands of independent science educators who, like by PI before them, have become fed up with sensational science reporting. Thanks for putting in this work, it's needed and loved.

with "grass screaming" i think like someone walking in his lawn and then a monster made out of grass comes out of the ground, grabs them by the head and screams in their ears

I’ve been really enjoying your videos. The editing and information you provide are very high quality. Love it!

@TheBackpackingBiologist

Жыл бұрын

Thanks so much! Glad you enjoy them :)

This is so well edited and put together, you should have way more than 30k subs

Quality video, compellingly explained. I dropped bonsai as a hobby years ago because I was worried about the off chance that I was hurting the plants I was pruning and shaping. Thanks for putting that to rest. 🙏

@rupert909

11 ай бұрын

How long have you been vegan?

Great video, instant sub. I totally agree about your concerns of us being increasingly disconnected to nature. When people settle, it seems like they lose the interest in the world around them. I can never understand why friends of mine travel to different countries just to sit in a hotel and never leave. After all no city, no hotel, no resort - no matter how beautiful, expensive and carefully they've been built - they will never reach the beauty of trees growing, animals interacting and life simply living.

This is an excellent, clearly stated, and beautifully concise explication of this topic. Excellent as always.

Great video, I especially like your take on how we're disconnecting ourselves from the very environment we've been created from.

This is so well researched and produced. Everything from the editing to the messages covered is fantastic. Severely underrated.

I remember watching your other bonsai video some time ago, this is a great follow up and response to all the concerns in the comments. I love your presentation and editing, very clear and concise!

@TheBackpackingBiologist

Жыл бұрын

Thanks so much! I appreciate you coming back, cheers!

This was so well made!! Can’t wait to let my friends know all about why plants don’t feel pain

@TheBackpackingBiologist

Жыл бұрын

Siiiiick! thanks for watching :)

@rupert909

11 ай бұрын

If your friend believes they do, your friend is probably a plant

Expertly crafted video! I'm glad I came across this 😁

@TheBackpackingBiologist

7 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

This is one of the best made videos I've seen in a long time. The shots, editing, writing, it's all there. Good work.

@TheBackpackingBiologist

11 ай бұрын

What an awesome compliment! Thank you so much!

The pacing of your video's is great. You said you need an editor in the end of your video, but you're doing it better than many big channels -- and I legitimately believe this. You have a very good grasp on cutting out unneeded fluff and get straight to the point. Whoever you may find, be sure to let them stick close to your style.

Great video. As a vegan, this has long been the most irritating conversation to engage with. "You don't eat animals, but plants are alive, too!" It's such a tedious thing to explain, and you did a great job of doing so succinctly and thoroughly.

@tobleronedog

11 ай бұрын

Same here!

@chaosenforcerdhm969

11 ай бұрын

What your opinion on eating single or few cell organisms

@edwardlwittlif

11 ай бұрын

@@chaosenforcerdhm969 Why? Am I talking to one of them right now...?

@snailcheeseyt

11 ай бұрын

@@edwardlwittlifhe’s trying to find who ate his family, rip 😔

@mechajaraxxus3510

11 ай бұрын

@@chaosenforcerdhm969 do we eat single or few cell organisms? Like do people sit down and eat a plate full of bacteria

Fun video! I know that plants can react to tissue damage, but like you said current scientific consensus is that they don't feel pain. I forget the exact experiment (I read about it during a class), but when a seedling's cotyledon is damaged it can lead to the plant focusing its growth heavily on the side that wasn't damaged. I think that in the experiment they determined that even a few pinpricks (through the leaf) could cause a reaction like that to occur. Pain isn't needed for damage to be registered and reacted to though. Similarly, like you said, theoretically (and in some cases, probably in actuality) the conditions of bonsai'd trees can be met in the wild. It's fairly well known that plants in windy areas grow more compact and shorter than the same species planted elsewhere as a reaction to that environmental pressure, where being taller and more spread out could result in them being uprooted by the wind.

@TheBackpackingBiologist

Жыл бұрын

All great points! I wasn't aware of the cotyledon experiment, sounds interesting. Thanks for watching and commenting

Thank you so much for this upload. This is the first video of yours to appear on my timeline, and I am dually pleased with the information and presentation. I'm excited to have discovered your channel!

You said all the things I secretly wished someone would say in a video on this subject

@rupert909

11 ай бұрын

It's more certain that plants don't feel pain than it is that cigarettes cause cancer. But yeah it's good to be open to the possibility of the opposite being true.

Really great video. Well edited and produced!

@TheBackpackingBiologist

Жыл бұрын

Thanks Richard!

I'm subscribing purely because I understand the amount of patience it takes too turn such idiotic thoughts into a learning moment without letting them get frustrating.

@TheBackpackingBiologist

Жыл бұрын

Haha I appreciate you!

@connfizzle882

11 ай бұрын

Ditto. While I wish such......lets say "opinionated individuals" would engage in good faith and either learn/accept the argument put forth or spend a similar amount of time/effort developing a response, I *HIGHLY* doubt that will end up being the case. A lot of this strictly shame-based """"activism"""" does nothing but allow for a target to be selected and let like-minded individuals rage over said chosen target - getting that lovely endorphin/dopamine hit all the while. Constantly seeking conflict because the behavior is chemically programmed to provide a "reward" in a way they are unable to generally recognize as addictive behavior. Last bit Ill say (sorry....bad habit of writing way too much) I'm a chemist by trade and while vaccinations aren't my area of expertise, myself and my colleagues understand the biochemical mechanism behind RNA vaccines and see the immense advantages - ESPECIALLY in R&D time. Yet - amazingly, whenever a controversy within the lab was started, it was never the staff lab staff but HR who decided to go on outright vindictive streaks to harass people genuinely trying to combat COVID the only way currently known by modern science. Much like the people anthropomorphizing plants, this subset of a subset was willing to literally cause possibly irreparable harm solely for the sake of ego/"""""clout"""". While more extreme than the plant activists in terms of sentiment/consequences, the same "ego-based bad faith argumentation" appears in both examples and frankly social media as a while. IDK what the answer is, but right now no matter how insane an idea I'd be willing to bet you can find a MIN of 50 others given enough time online.

@epicthecandydragon6079

10 ай бұрын

one small solution is to be a peacemaker and don’t engage with all that negativity.

The quality of this video was great!! You deserve way more subscribers.

Absolutely underrated video dude. I love how deeply you care

You cannot have pain without a nervous system. That is how pain works. It is debatable whether certain animals can feel pain. But we know for sure that any animal lacking a nervous system does not feel pain. This is why anesthetics work on you...because they disable the ability of nerves to function properly.

What??? Really?????? Damn, I loved bonsai, but now that I discovered I wasn't torturing them for years is such a bummer and i feel cheated

I wasn't worried about bonsai but clicked and found it so calming

Great video, loved the editing!

People will be shocked that the vegetables and fruits we eat have been bred into genetic deformities to produce more of their fruits and vegetables. Some plants like bananas couldn't survive without human maintainance.

i really enjoy the editing in this video, felt very well produced.

@TheBackpackingBiologist

Жыл бұрын

Thank you! I definitely try

@Catfish2048

Жыл бұрын

@@TheBackpackingBiologist Can you try and study the catfish species? such as the really big one that eats dogs.

This is such a polished video, you are an extremely underrated youtuber, and deserve much more subs!

@TheBackpackingBiologist

11 ай бұрын

Thanks so much! Those subs will come someday 😝 appreciate you!

Thank you so much for this perspective. I did believe the articles about plants feeling pain but how you explained this makes so much sense!

I wish I had this video to show people when I started vegetarianism. Everyone had an opinion about my diet but some would say that I was being cruel to plants instead of animals, UNIRONICALLY. Great video, keep up the good work!!

@iferlyf8172

11 ай бұрын

Ironically you have to sacrifice more plants if you eat animal products, since those animals need to eat something. So being vegan spares plants too!

@GaiatheSage

11 ай бұрын

vegetarian/vegan hypocrisy is real. pretty gross how ignorantly genocidal you all are. Imagine if humans did mass culling of animals for meat without considering the ethical or environmental impacts, oh wait they already do that. you are doing EXACTLY the same! all the while acting like pompous blowhards. you are the exact reason people don't like vegans.

@GaiatheSage

11 ай бұрын

@@iferlyf8172 fungi and insects aren't plants. herbivores don't only eat plants. weak argument.

@QUBIQUBED

11 ай бұрын

@@GaiatheSage Did you watch the video? Don't anthropomorphize UNCONSCIOUS THINGS

@rupert909

11 ай бұрын

​@@GaiatheSagehuh? How does this respond to the comment in any way? Who mentioned fungi...

I find a danger with anthropomorphism (especially with animals) is people assume an organism needs and likes are similar to theirs when it can be harmful to that species.

@MrSailing101

Жыл бұрын

like giving your dog chocolate (DONT)

so well written shot and edited!! love your energy!! subbed! (srsly this is like discovery channel level)

Fantastic video, i was hoping your plant sentience and intelligence video was complete. Hope to see it soon!

For me Bonsai is an expression of reverence towards nature. I don't have a national forest in my backyard, and driving to one whenever I need a hit of biophilia isn't sustainable for my budget or for the planet. Bonsai allows me to try to capture some of the essence of these beautiful wildernesses in an environmentally friendly way. I love my trees. They never experience the stress of flooding or drought or heavy winds. Its leaves gets carefully cleaned with water to avoid spider mites without using sprays. Yes, there is wire on it, yes, I prune it, but the plant would naturally stretch and bend to find light and abscise weaker branches and twigs.

An inflated balloon makes a sound when you cut it. Thus, the balloon feels pain and it's screaming. It reminds me of this iron gate that screams in agony whenever people move it.

@Jorge-np3tq

Жыл бұрын

Does the balloon react to analgesics, like plants do?

@cvdinjapan7935

Жыл бұрын

@@Jorge-np3tq Apparently so! They were applied to the balloon after it had been cut, and the painful screaming began to subside until it no longer screamed at all. The analgesics even worked on the iron gate, when mixed together with an oil-based solution. Very effective at managing pain, for both balloons and iron gates.

@Jorge-np3tq

Жыл бұрын

@@cvdinjapan7935 Not how measuring reactions works. Ever heard of control samples? You cut two balloons and only give analgesics to one, and see if there's a difference in results between the two. That's how it's done with animals and yes, plants. Have you read Nick, P. (2021). Sensitive or sentient-a painful debate. Protoplasma, 258(2), 235-238? It's a good summary of the current debate on plant pain.

@cvdinjapan7935

Жыл бұрын

@@Jorge-np3tq Yes, I did forget to mention the control group. The balloon in the control group stopped screaming because it died, while the balloon that was given analgesics stopped screaming because the pain went away. On a more serious note, did you know that people who can't feel pain due to nerve damage still respond chemically to being cut? Their body will still respond to the cut, even though their brain doesn't know about it. One can look at the data and say "Yes, this person feels pain." But if one asks such a person if they feel any pain, they will say no, they don't. A lot of people want to say that plants feel pain, but they are misled.

@Jorge-np3tq

Жыл бұрын

@@cvdinjapan7935 I don't "want" to say plants feel pain. I would be more comfortable in a world where it is confirmed that they don't. But to act as if there is no serious debate between academics on the topic when there obviously is represents getting ahead of the science. I could take "there is no clear evidence that plants feel pain", but not "we definitely know plants don't feel pain". You might be surprised, but I personally support the idea that they don't, because without a brain there's no obvious experience integrating mechanism. But unlike you I don't pretend the debate is settled. Indicators like reaction to anesthetics, wound protection, selective self-defense mechanisms, danger communication and so on do not prove by themselves that plants feel pain, but provide reason not to discard that possibility. If an alien came to earth, and their nervous system functioned without a brain (because their evolution had been so different from ours) but with some analogous, anatomically and chemically different organ called an X, they could run tests on humans and determine, despite our screams and cries, that we don't feel pain since we don't have an X, so long as they don't manage to recognize the brain as analogous to the X.

Just discovered you from the algorithm and I'm loving your channel! Great discussion and tone, and such a nicely put together video!

@TheBackpackingBiologist

11 ай бұрын

Thanks and I appreciate your support! Cheers!

What a well put together and thought-through video!

Pain requires nervous system => plants don't have nervous system => plants don't feel pain

We live in a world today were this has to be explained. How dreadful.

Cool to have all this information, great content man!

@TheBackpackingBiologist

Жыл бұрын

appreciate it! Thanks for watching!

Short, precise, sources citations, and also good quality in both image and sound, and even entertaining. Ok, I like and I comment! That's really uncommon for me, but this video deserves it. I'm gonna go see what else there is on this channel. THanks.

*People:* "Plants feel pain, you monster!!" *Others:* "Okay, you're against causing pain. Animals definitely feel pain. So you're vegan?" *People:* "...you're an extremist."

@lucianklippelsilva1757

11 ай бұрын

Being a vegan wouldn't help either, they would be indirectly causing pain to the plants they're eating

@TheImperfectGuy

11 ай бұрын

now this is where Frucatarians come in, Only consuming ripe fruit and other things that have fallen off plants

@DonnieMouse

11 ай бұрын

​@TheImperfectGuy fruit can feel pain you monster!

@TheImperfectGuy

11 ай бұрын

@@DonnieMouse that's actually the one time that there's no person in the world that's unironically like that fruits have developed to be nutrient dense specifically to be eaten and have the seeds inside them spread the fruits very existence is to be eaten by an animal of its choice the plants want this there's no two ways about it fruit is peak thing in the world where the food is not prey vs predator but a through symbiosis

@DonnieMouse

11 ай бұрын

@TheImperfectGuy very interesting! I was of course joking and I did not expect to learn something new, so thank you :)

KZread just recommended both your Bonsai videos and I am amazed by the editing and research ! thank you for uploading these for free and educating us

@TheBackpackingBiologist

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching! Glad you liked them :)

Such a good video! Clear explanations and edits! I love that I ended up here today

@TheBackpackingBiologist

11 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

Very entertaining video, I always believed they didnt feel pain but thanks for backing it up with facts and keeping me interested!

The funniest thing is I would tell people about plant reacting and being stressed but I never consider it as them feeling pain. Just how fascinating it is they use it to try and communicate to other plants or insects like you said to call parasite to attack the herbevore bug. I usually tell these facts to make people more considerate of plants because they are alive not a rock, but it very easy for people to be confused by that.

@PeridotFacet-FLCut-XG-og1xx

Жыл бұрын

Isn't that the point though? If I want to convince someone to be more considerate of plants and take better care of them, there are two ways for me to do that (I can do just one or both). One: argue through the logical benefit that comes from plants, e.g. plants will give you oxygen, make your garden pretty, sustain the surrounding ecosystem, caring for plants can be relaxing and good for your mental health, etc. Two: argue through empathy and/or moral duty, e.g. you want to care for a plant because that would make the plant feel good and not feel bad, you should care for a plant because a plant's life and experiences are intrinsically valuable (EVEN IF they were not beneficial to you or the environment), etc. It seems to me that pointing out the ability to detect damage or feel stressed is making an argument for number two.

@PeridotFacet-FLCut-XG-og1xx

Жыл бұрын

Honestly now that I think about it, there is a third option: Threats. E.g. if you don't take care of this plant then they're going to fine you or put you in prison, if you don't take care of this plant then I'm taking away your video games, if you're mean to this plant then you're going to hell, etc. In a way this is like the inverse of the first option.

@berjoxhn5142

11 ай бұрын

@@PeridotFacet-FLCut-XG-og1xx honestly just tired of people giving human characteristics and traits to shit like plants and insects.

@chaosenforcerdhm969

11 ай бұрын

@@PeridotFacet-FLCut-XG-og1xxmost oxygen doesn’t come form land plants

@rupert909

11 ай бұрын

​@@chaosenforcerdhm969it does tho... Marine plants and phytoplankton... And most phytoplankton are single celled plants.

2:55 Well, I'll be having nightmares tonight.

Really refreshing, your style! Edit: AMAZING, great production!

Wow this is one of the most underrated videos ive ever seen. It was truly cinematic and educational! Thank you!!!!❤

@GBazo-en5el

10 ай бұрын

its full of misinformation, and he hasnt even talked abt plants yet.

Paused at 0:40 to say, logically plants shouldn't receive pain as there is no benefit because it cant withdraw reactionally. the entire point of pain is the body telling the mind to withdraw from what is happening.

are there seriously ppl talking about a plant feeling pain? wtf?

@QUBIQUBED

11 ай бұрын

Surprisingly yes

Loved the last section so much, thanks for making this video!

@TheBackpackingBiologist

11 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

Very underrated. I'd like to see more videos about plants, keep up working

@TheBackpackingBiologist

Жыл бұрын

Thank you!

Very informative and good explained. I started vegan diet and with that video, i'm even more certified that i am doing the right thing! Thank you for this video.

Concrete makes noises when stressed. That's why engineers put sensors on pillars in multi storey structures or bridges. Concrete does not feel pain.

@hs.j7291

Жыл бұрын

a damn good analogy if you ask me^

amazing video, very interesting topic and beautiful photography!

Thank you for a video so detailed on the matter, I do Bonsai for quite some years now, and I had some people questioning that, a friend of mine even got really pissed about it, even me being way more connected to nature... I don't just grow Bonsai, I do plant fruit trees, vegetables, and even care our neighborhood trees. It's sad to hear that kind of comply from people who never actually planted anything in their lives, and their greenest experience is to watch a tree on a park (that someone else planted and care for) or on a supermarket section...

It’s wild how many people think plants can feel pain. I would anthropomorphize every living being as a child because I misunderstood “alive” as meaning sentient. I also thought non-human animals thought in language lmao

Incredible that everyone is so worried about plants feeling pain, but eat chicken everyday..

Wonderful video brother! Glad I found your channel

Wow, loved the video. Very educational, and good conclusion at the end. Thanks for this content!

Personally, I think you're asking the wrong questions here. We shouldn't be asking "do plants feel pain?" Like the pinned comment said, this is a problem of semantics and plants may be able to feel an analogue to human pain that we dont know of. Pain is a fundamentally very human thing. Even though we can see animals experiencing pain, we have to anthropomorphize to a certain degree to get anywhere in this conversation. So I propose a different question. "Should we practice the ethical treatments we practice on animals as we would other kingdoms of life?" I think the answer is yes, though I don't have an opinion on if bonsai is considered unethical. My line of logic is as follows: is it alive? If yes, they don't want to die. All living things from bacteria to animals only want one thing: to not die. This isn't even anthropomorphism because that's literally the point of life - survive long enough to produce offspring. Like you said, even plants evolved defense mechanisms to continue living. Is that not objective proof plants avoid death? Now, I'm biased here. I would kill a million animals and plants if it means I can save a human life. I believe we are the masters of Earth simply because we are intelligent. I also believe that because we are intelligent, we ought to put ourselves to a higher ethical standards than organisms that cannot make a conscious decision to abstain from harm. Just by living, we must kill to sustain ourselves. Abstaining from blood, whether animal or plants, is impossible. This is why I don't really like the vegan philosophy about saving animals because plants are alive just as animals are. And do plant rights movements exist? No. Same way nobody cares about the honour of single-celled microbes. People care about pets more than they would a snake. At the end of the day, our feelings on nonhuman organisms are just that - feelings. And everyone feels differently. My personal opinion on this is let every human have their own opinion on the matter. It's impossible for eight billion people to agree. However, we must make an _institutionalized_ effort not to let ourselves slip down a slippery slope. Animal cruelty is immoral and the Three Rs of animal testing (Reduce, Refine, Replace) is a step towards the right direction. Animals raised for meat should be free roaming in an ideal world and everyone must dispatch live animals before they cook them. And don't waste the carcass once they've been hunted; that's both wasteful and disrespectful to the animal. And I say why can't we treat plants the same way? "Is bonsai evil" is the wrong question to ask. "What can we do to reduce deforestation" is a better question. It doesn't matter if they feel pain. They want to live just as much as animals and humans do. Don't cut down a tree in your front yard just because they block the sun. That's true vanity, moreso than bonsai. Also, as a footnote, since nobody probably cares about single-celled organisms at all, despite them making up more than half of all the biomass on Earth, we can avoid making institutionalized efforts to treat them to ethical standards. We already have enough on our plates with animals.

@stork01

Жыл бұрын

["All living things from bacteria to animals only want one thing: to not die. This isn't even anthropomorphism because that's literally the point of life - survive long enough to produce offspring."] - That is anthropomorphism though isn't it?, you are assuming all life forms, including stuff as simple as bacteria have "wants", when it is much more likely they simply follow some biological programming they evolved by random chance. ["Like you said, even plants evolved defense mechanisms to continue living. Is that not objective proof plants avoid death?'] - Everything evolves to avoid death to some degree, because everything that doesn't is extinct. Things don't conciously evolve, for example lets say a plant that grows from a seed has a genetic mutation that makes its leaves less tasty to the deer that eat its species completely by random chance. Naturally the deer avoid this plant because there are better options right next to it, so the plant survives longer and produces more seeds. Some of these seeds carry the mutation along and again survive better and long that those that don't. Eventually over a long period of time the original plant has been fully replaced by the mutated version. The plant did not choose to evolve to avoid death, a random lucky mutation made it that way. And random random mutations can go the other way too. I was born with medical issues that would have caused my death if we still lived in a time of natural selection, I didn't choose it, and I could have just as randomly been born with something that would've given a natural advantage.

@dandanthedandan7558

Жыл бұрын

@@stork01 sure everything evolved from random chance but the other option is that we use this reasoning to justify washing our hands from ethical treatments on nonhuman organisms. I say treat all life with respect

Brilliant video! I've been thinking about this specific issue recently. I've decided to draw the line at never deliberately harming my tree's. There are many wild pine bonsai growing around where I live in Sweden. The ice age left very little topsoil, but I've noticed many are starting to die off, and I assume that this is a product of global warming. They're right on the edge of what's possible for survival so it's very sad to see.

@TheBackpackingBiologist

Жыл бұрын

I can respect it! I personally don't participate in bonsai anymore, partially because of the work, and partially because it's not my preferred way of connecting with plants. It is sad to see trees that have been surviving for so long die off, and I'd expect you're right with the global warming. Plants will have to become hardier in the years to come. Thanks for watching!

@a64738

Жыл бұрын

"Global warming" is a scam, follow the money... What we should be afraid of is global cooling as tiny drop in temperature = world wide starvation.

Your arguments are very well constructed and presented. Good job man.

Great video man the editing and enthusiasm is amazing. When I looked at the subscibers and only saw sub 40k subscribers I was blown away. Keep up these great videos and I can assure you’ll continue to grow. :)

@TheBackpackingBiologist

11 ай бұрын

Thank you so much! I appreciate the encouragement

I remember scratching the bark of a tree when i was in elementary school, a girl that didn't like me came by and said "they feel pain too, you know?" i replied "actually, they don't, plants do not have pain receptors, and even if they did, they would still not feel anything by me scratching the bark, as it is actually composed only of dead cells" i think she just started insulting me afterwards 😂

@GengUpinIpin

Жыл бұрын

Now i wanna send this video to that girl if shes really that smart....and see how she reacts

@statsguy1446

10 ай бұрын

You're 100% right, but that doesn't change the fact that you're a jerk for intentionally damaging a tree.

There is a basic level of empathy only missing in psychopaths. There is also an amount of empathy only existing in the mind of those completely out of touch with reality. Equating pruning to torture is the second.

@rupert909

11 ай бұрын

In my experience, nost people who claim plants feel pain usually do so as an appeal to futility to absolve them of other wrong doings they commit... "plants feel pain tho" is only really brought up when the morality of someone's actions are brought into question.

so happy to see you post hehe

@TheBackpackingBiologist

11 ай бұрын

Me too haha! thanks for watching!

this some amazing editing and explaination, instant sub!

@TheBackpackingBiologist

11 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed!

Well, another thing I learned from this video is that eels also do the death roll, not just gators/crocs. 😂

I found the five criteria for pain you listed interesting, but I personally prefer a seven criteria model proposed by one RW Elwood that I found while doing a research project on animal consciousness. In this model, there are seven criteria: having a central nervous system, showing avoidance learning, showing protective motor reactions, showing physiological changes (such as an increased heart rate), showing trade offs between pain and other desires, responding to anesthesia (shows definitive proof of pain receptors and works in unrelated animals like crustaceans and cephalopods), and being conscious. Interestingly, this model led me to roughly the same conclusions you did: vertebrates, crustaceans, and cephalopods fulfill all seven criteria so they almost certainly feel pain; insects fulfill four, lacking the motor response, motivational trade offs, and anesthesia response, so it's difficult to say for certain; and plants have at most one (physiological changes) so they almost certainly do not feel pain.

I can't believe i just sat down and watched through a whole video explaining something i already knew. That's captivating content.

I really appreciate your channel It is very informative and Good Love for Mother Nature ❤

@TheBackpackingBiologist

Жыл бұрын

Thank you, I appreciate you ♥️