I've thought about this video for a few days now and mulled it over in my head. So first of all I think Ironsworn: Starforged is several things in one. First, it's a PbtA TTRPG. The rules for that RPG are 280 pages (not including the oracles) which is pretty normal for RPGs released by today's standards. Another famous PbtA game, Dungeon World, is 387 pages by comparison. Second, it's a primer / guide for how to play a solo / gmless RPG. The Geek Gamer's solo GM guide was somewhere around 200 pages and I think Starforged does just as good a job teaching you to solo role play as that book does. A good portion of Starforged is how to advice and examples on how to play without a GM. Finally, it's 100+ pages of oracles and random tables which can be used in this game or other games. So when you look at it for what it is, I don't think it's to long at all. I think it's a little unfair to say this product is to long, thus not friendly to new solo players, when the book literally says in the first section that you don't need to read every word. Read the first chapter, then get to playing and refer to the rules when you need more clarity. My experience with most new solo rpg players is that they are confused and need more guidance, not less. This book provides that guidance. Is this system for everyone? Definitely not. It's not a mechanically complex game at all. If you're looking for crunch and strategy you'll have to look somewhere else. This game is for people who really like narrative and want simple rules for playing out that narrative game. The rules come down to this: 1) Envision your fiction 2) When your fiction calls for something that is uncertain, figure out what stat your character would lean into and roll that stat. 3) When your fiction calls for something that needs to be measured by progress create a progress bar and track that progress bar using the results of your rolls from rule 2. 4) When you need the answer to question roll on an oracle table. Everything else just adds onto those 4 rules. Sean's Ironsworn example of play on his discord channel literally DOESN'T use assets and it's a great scene him and his players play out. You don't need anything but those 4 rules. As you get more experienced with the game you can add on the other systems in the book. I would encourage people who love narrative and want to try gmless play to still give this game a shot and don't let this review stop you from trying it. You can get the fantasy version of Ironsworn for free online.

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

For me, the game got in the way of the narrative at every single step after I created my character and world. It's the most mechanical solo RPG I've played. It's ALL about the moves and the mechanisms, and if you don't make the right progress move at the right time, your narrative will not progress on the track. Right now I'm playing Space Aces solo, a super small game of about 28 pages, no movies, just a simple oracle and some charts, and the narrative is flowing non-stop. I never have to wonder if what I'm doing is covered in any of the 36+ moves with detailed rules and outcomes. I just do the thing, roll some dice, and narrate. With Starforged I felt like I was constantly looking things up to see if I was using the right move so I wouldn't miss ticking a box on the progress track. But I think most people know I'm in the vast and small minority on my opinions on this. :) Seems like most people love it. And that's great! I'm used to being in the minority on a lot of my opinions. :D

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

There seems to be a "right" and "wrong" way to play this system, and I played it "wrong." However, even if I played it "right" it still wouldn't offer me anything that a system without a right or wrong way offers me. If that makes sense! :)

Its interesting how different people get different things out of games... System complexity and the genre and how its emulated are hugely important to enjoyment. I've actually found Ironsworn and Starforged more useful and enjoyable when I've played it co-op with another player or actually as a toolset for me as a GM. Scifi isn't an easy genre to RP in, in my opinion, fantasy definitely has easier hooks and more people seem to have more of an affinity for it. For me, Starforged actually helped me engage with an SF setting far more than other games that I've previously played.

I finally settled on the Genesys RPG system. The way the narrative dice work with solo play is incredible. I’m running fantasy but the system very easily can be used with any setting you can think of. Fantasy Flight Games Star Wars RPG uses the same system and I’m looking into doing that next. The rules are much simpler than other systems IMO.

Love the continued honesty. I do not want commercials. 😊

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

Neither do I! :)

Man I just started Starforged and came to the opposite opinion. This is my first solo game and it was so easy. I found that most of the rules, at least that I’ve seen, are just to help create a setting. ( thats amazing ) On a side note, I started using it in conjunction with Stargazer and man that app is Astounding!!! It makes the game even more amazing. I found for my first 2-3 minutes searching for “moves” but then I realized that I just do what I would do in the game and find the move or make one up that encompasses it. The game comes up with really cool twists and unexpected results. I just bought the entirety of Tomkin press’s books because of this.

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

Nice! Glad it worked out for you!

Shawn did an Ironsworn actual play podcast a while back that, through example, really helps give an idea of how to go about selecting moves. Although the entire list of moves is long, they are broken down into categories, and generally only 3-5 moves apply to any given situation.

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

For me, the payoff will never be worth the effort, because I already get a ton of payoff from more simple systems, with fewer pages! So even if I always knew exactly what move to do, and how it impacts the fiction and mechanisms by heart, the system wouldn't really offer me anything more than something else I'm already enjoying!

Great video. As a relatively new solo RPG player, I've appreciated how Ironsworn offers so many specific actions that I can take. Sometimes when a system offers fewer/broader actions, it feels like I'm simply repeating the same "General Adventuring Move" ad-nauseum.

@joemyers85

Жыл бұрын

In that sense, the long list of Ironsworn actions serve as inspiration for what my character could do - instead of ever feeling like it's overwhelming to me.

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

That makes total sense.

@crushingit5128

Жыл бұрын

I'm always curious if even I would enjoy solo RPGs considering I have no ttrpg experience. My mind doesn't know how to build something without direction. No idea if you are in the same boat. How's the solo rpg going? Do you find it more entertaining than let's say playing a campaign board game or a rpg video game?

@joemyers85

Жыл бұрын

It definitely takes some getting used to, especially coming from a video game background - but can be very fun and rewarding! Something that really helped me early on was to physically print out the "oracle" tables from Ironsworn (great resource!) and rely heavily on those for narrative suggestions whenever I felt like things were starting to get stale or tedious. Also, don't let yourself stress over getting every rule correct if it cuts into you having fun! The "rule of cool" applies even for solo play.

Great video as always. The game looks really interesting. I might need to look into it ! Thanks

As a brand new solo player, Ironsworn was the first one that clicked for me. Ironsworn made me realize what it is you actually do during solo sessions. I'm talking about the base Ironsworn, though. I haven't read Starforged. The first thing I read was Scarlet Heroes and White Box. I like Scarlet Heroes as a simplification of D&D, but even with the example of play in the book I still didn't really know what I was supposed to do with it. With Ironsworn I could think, "What do I need to do to tick off some of these boxes?" And that was enough to get me going in the right direction. Some people are overflowing with ideas and use game rules as a way to condense and focus the experience. Some sit like a stone until they're given a specific push. Ironsworn is better for the latter type of beginner.

@TheDungeonDive

8 ай бұрын

Yep! I think that's exactly why the Ironsworn system just didn't work for me.

I felt pretty much the same way the first time I tried Ironsworn. But then I listened to more people playing it, and my second attempt was much more enjoyable when I knew the system better. For my third game I stopped ticking boxes and just went with whatever timing made sense. Ironsworn is definitely not my favorite solo system, but I’m sure I’ll play it again eventually and I expect to have a good time when I do. Great video, honesty is always greatly appreciated 👍👏

I think the "beginner" conversation is interesting because people have different strengths and also come from different backgrounds. I can imagine someone who isn't as into storytelling would have more trouble with a light rules set because it simply doesn't offer enough guidance for what to do next. The more complex the system, the more guidance it gives-a nice long list of mechanical actions, complete with story implications, is perfect. And if you have a background in board games or crunchy RPGs, the mechanics aren't nearly as intimidating as a blank canvas of storytelling.

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

That makes sense. I wonder what aspect most people find the most challenging about solo RPGs - the mechanisms, or the fiction?

@andrewwilson895

Жыл бұрын

@@TheDungeonDive My guess is that the "average" person would have trouble with both! An engineering-minded person would do better learning the mechanisms, and an author-minded person would do better coming up with stories. I would also be interested to learn which is most common…

@alexanderbodman6470

Жыл бұрын

I agree completely! For me Starforged isn’t complex at all, there are essentially two types of die roll, an oracle roll or an action roll (1d6+ stat compared against two d10s) the moves are handholds which help to push the story along. Like you’ve said, @AndrewWilson a nice long list of mechanical actions complete with story implications is perfect. That is especially so when you realize that the moves use one mechanism which interact both with the narrative and the various stats on the character sheet.

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

For me anything with a book almost 400 pages is complex!

@alexanderbodman6470

Жыл бұрын

@@TheDungeonDive yeah that’s pretty intimidating! As a complete beginner in ttrpgs, I found that the copious number of moves helped me play the game because at first I knew the options I had, and then once I had more experience I was able to decide what I wanted to do and know which move would fit. I’m yet to check out a lot of the RPG’s that you’ve recommended, but have loved watching your reviews! Keep up the good work, I’m a big fan!!

The biggest tip I can give regarding Ironsworn or Starforged is: Know the lore of your setting. The more you're familiar with the setting and its lore, the easier it is to interpret the outcome of a move, or which move would apply. If you want to keep things really simple in any of the Ironsworn games, there's the Battle Move. It gives you a framework that can be applied to any situation really, not just mass combat as the move lets you use any of your Stats to make the action roll and gives you a clear explanation of the result. Also, I tend to ditch any mechanic that I feel bogs things down too much.

This is good to know, and reading the comments, helps me decide not to waste my little time,and little money, I have to play games of something i may not end up being able to keep focusing on it if its got too much fussiness, boggy paperwork. I cant hardly focus on anything anymore with postcovid chronic neurological problems.

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

I, too, am suffering from cognitive decline post covid. :(

@CMDR.Gonzo.von.Richthofen

Жыл бұрын

I'm sorry to hear that. I guess it's something that I should look into, because I've felt very different/off for a few years now, and I want my old self back😔

I used the system on my channel for a Mandalorian Legos Solo Campaign… I tried my best to really like the system, but I might be switching systems going forward in the series. 🪐

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

Space Aces would be a great set of tools.

11:44 this is exactly what I have told people that ask me why I stopped playing Starforged

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

They could be cut in half and not lose anything.

@samakechijowo

3 ай бұрын

I'm one of the people who like Ironsworn because of the moves. In fact, Ironsworn is MY favorite solo system. With rules lite stuff like, I just can't get creative enough to face a problem on my own. Having lots of moves gives me options and ideas on how to tackle a situation. One person trash is other people's treasure, I guess

I think part of the reason why Ironsworn is so often recommended for solo-RP beginners is specifically because it offers so much structure. For someone experienced with free-form narrative generation like yourself, I can completely understand why Ironsworn/Starforged would feel unnecessarily burdonsome and heavy. However, for many others, too much freedom of interpretation can be just as paralyzing as having too many rules. You mentioned Mork Borg a few times in this video, and that is a game in which I think many of its solo rules can be interpreted as "do whatever you think makes sense within the framework of the setting/story". For people who are used to someone else doing the creative heavy-lifting for them (like a DM or a video game), this can often feel like being thrown into the deep end. Ironsworn and Mork Borg are my two favorite "entry point" solo TTRPGs to recommend to beginners, but which one I recommend is based on whether or not the person has any experience with creative literary endeavors. If they enjoy reading or creative writing as a hobby, or have experience DMing in other TTRPGs, these are good indicators that they wouldn't have any trouble using their imagination to generate whatever parts of the game they can't rely on oracle tables to handle. For people that are primarily experienced with being players in group-oriented TTRPGs, and/or most of their gaming experience comes from board and video games, then I recommend Ironsworn. I think these people will have an easier time coming to grips with solo-RP when they have a very clearly defined rules structure to use as a foundation for their play.

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, well said. Just the fact that the book is nearly 400 pages is an instant beginner-red-flag for me. I would never recommend such a thick tome to someone just wanting to dip their tow into the solo RPG pool. This game is a major time investment.

@CMDR.Gonzo.von.Richthofen

Жыл бұрын

​@@TheDungeonDive as always, I appreciate YOUR time investment. Thank you for what you do.

@rpgchronicler

Жыл бұрын

I know some folks who arent fans of the gritty/dark fantasy rpgs like mork borg or more lethal-esque games like the ones in the OSR scene. What would you recommend for someone who wants to play a dedicated solo rpg but is themically and mechanically much more in line with say dnd 5e?

The moves in Ironsworn are game mechanics, just like in any other TTRPG. I would agree that the way that they're organized is different than other TTRPGs and, in doing so, the way that they're clumped together makes it seem overwhelming. I'm confident that if other TTRPGs were to organize their game mechanics in a similar fashion, it would also seem as overwhelming. Other than that, you seem to have bounced off hard from this game and Ironsworn, so I doubt such pointing this out will change your position on it. You did give it the ol' college try, so you deserve credit for that. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on your experience with Ironsworn: Starforged.

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

Love that you love it so much! It’s always great to enjoy the things we love. I just like dead simple RPGs. I’m a simple man.

Many thanks for this review. You put a lot of effort in and you explain your thoughts very clearly. I can see you didn't to be critical of Starforged, but it's good that you were honest!

@TheDungeonDive

Ай бұрын

Glad it was helpful!

Cool video. I'm a huge fan of both books and I appreciate a good rewiew even if the product is something you don't like very much. 😊

@TheDungeonDive

2 ай бұрын

Thanks for watching!

The set up is indeed excellent. Two random lines from the oracle and two truths have set up my background vow really nicely - to find my father, long vanished, who may or may not be an agent of the Bloody League, the faction that drove us to travel through the portal here. I'm a young mechanic with a side line in hunting, and the dice have been kind in setting up an initial vow which meets my competances - to relocate a tree top settlement on a jungle planet in danger from flooding. There also seem to be some other promising leads from the supplied prompts, which are far more challenging or long term in nature. Not to mention forces or events this young character is blissfully ignorant of at present. Really interesting experience so far, now I just need to get familiar with the mechanics; hopefully it's largely a question of common sense!

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

That sounds cool! The game does a good job at this kind of thing.

I can totally understand you, Daniel! And it is perfectly okay not like a popular game.:) I think what made Ironsworn/ Starforge an important game was because it became the foundation by which other solo games were born. Personally, what I love about the game is its oracle tables. I don't use the game system but I use the oracle tables in my other games. I follow Debra's (Geek Gamer) approach to gaming wherein she takes the best things from various game systems and makes it her own. I think that is the purest sense of what solo gaming in. Speaking of Debra, I hope she is okay. She has not posted in her channel for some time. I hope all is well with her.

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

Oh yeah! She and I area always combing different elements from different games to make our own! That's the best thing about these kinds of games. Usually when I'm playing a solo RPG, I've 3 or 4 different games/things on the table. I'll reach out to her. She might just be busy with life things. :)

@rpgchronicler

Жыл бұрын

Geek Gamers tends to post stuff whenever its done. Whilst we do get updates from her on what is coming up there was never any specific roadmap on what vids will be discussed.

Hi, I like Starforged because the RPG solo is adaptable to other worlds. Apart from that, it is the narrative aspect of the game what gives me inspiration for writing a story with different paths. I have to tell you I'm doing my first game with the playkit downloadable from the web, only 8 pages, I don't need any more movements. I bought the pdf and I have printed the assest cards. I love this book...

@TheDungeonDive

5 ай бұрын

Nice! So glad you're enjoying it!

Watching this video and reading the comments makes me feel better about my brief time with Ironsworn. I printed out the book and the reference guide. I made all the cards. Just like you I had a ball with the world creation system. Then I played it. It didn’t click with me at all. Just like you I was constantly wondering “What move is this?”. Flicking forwards and backwards through the books, trying to keep all the rules in my head. It was all too much for me! I’m glad you mentioned Fallen. Amazing little game with just 12 skills that are essentially moves. However you only have a few few points to spend on them at character creation so you’ll probably only have 4 or 5. Simple and elegant. Everyone needs to find their own way in solo roleplaying. Good luck everyone! For me ‘simple & elegant’ is my holy grail. As a rough guide If I see a book that has more than approximately 150 pages I know it might not be for me unless a big part of the book is devoted to describing the setting. I’m all over that!!

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

Yes! The skills in Fallen are basically moves, because they are containers that contain both mechanic and narrative outcomes.

@TheLukio

Жыл бұрын

Thinking about what move something is can happen in any pbta style game though. Some have more, some less. The moves in IS and SF are well compartmentalized things like general moves, combat, relationship etc. it's not like you need to sift through all of them all the time.

@sidsmiff

Жыл бұрын

@@TheLukio Its totally cool that it works for you. I regret if I came across as trying to convince anyone that PBTA games are bad. They certainly aren’t. They’re just not for me (mostly).

@TheLukio

Жыл бұрын

@@sidsmiff in /r/pbta there currently is an ongoing discussion about how difficult it is for some people to work with certain PBTA games because of the wording or the lack of playthroughs to "get it". I've struggled with Fiasco ass well for example.

@sidsmiff

Жыл бұрын

@@TheLukio That’s interesting. Maybe if I sat next to someone who gets it and watched I would change my mind. Unfortunately at the moment I’m solo only. I have no group.

My session zero will hopefully be tomorrow. Really looking forward to creating the background and character but also somewhat daunted, since this is a first for me! My gaming progression has been a journey from totally structured (video games, Euro board games) towards much more freeform or adaptable systems (Hexploreit, DUN) via the likes of Sword &Sorcery or Folklore, so I see this as a step further down this path. Its a bit scary, but I've gone back and checked out your 5 tips video which is really helpful. I figure that gaming experiences such as Mass Effect will help me to create a pathway of smaller quests leading toward the Iron Vow (aka the main quest), whatever that may turn out to be.....

whoa! Absolutely 100% same in every opinion! From the appreciation of the layout and resources, the excitement of discovery, the Truths, to the utter paralyzation at all the moves and feeling of daunting weight and overwhelming "responsibility" to the mechanics!! :O

I've enjoyed both games, but I agree that they are quite move-heavy and a bit crunchy, albeit in a narrative-focused way. Totally fair to have different preferences!

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

Oh yeah. I think they’re great for a certain thing and person.

I agree about the overwhelming number of moves in Ironsworn that can feel like it's dragging you down. Combat and Expeditions can really feel long and drawn out for me. Thankfully he does add the Battle move which allows you to just resolve a battle in one dice throw. On the other hand, even when not playing Starforged specifically, I do think the Oracle tables a well worth price of the game for use in other systems. I can have a lot of fun with the Reference Guide Oracle tables with other games or just an ad-hock solo space hexcrawling game.

@rpgchronicler

Жыл бұрын

If pbtas add an "attack" move, that would make things much less daunting.

I've found the Starforged sweet spot in co-op mode with 3 players. I've been playing Starforged since it was in playtesting, and I can understand your dissatisfaction with trying to play it solo. I overcame the learning curve because I was having so much fun with the communal GMing - interpreting the oracles and creatively bouncing worldbuilding ideas around with friends - to get dragged down by the times we had to figure out which move to use.

@TheDungeonDive

Ай бұрын

That sounds fun! I like playing solo RPGs as GMless co-op games, so I can see how that would be fun. I've played Mork Borg like that with Solitary Defilement, and it was a blast!

This looks AMAZING!!!!!!

Hello!! I would like to agree with you about Ironsworn & Starforged are not exactly for beginners. However, I started my solo experience with Ironsworn, and I didn't really know anything else out there at the time. As for the moves, if I may. I usually try to think of an ability from my character that I would like to use, fit it in the narrative, then string the moves to make that happen mechanically.

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

I think that's the best way! I would just rather not deal with the moves, and just roll for my character's skills / abilities.

That's a nice explanation. Indeed, I was wondering, "why not Ironsworn?". 😅

I was very excited for this release when I was getting into solo gaming. I love the tables. Love the world building. Loved the mapping. I was intimidated by all the info but one day I just decided to jump in. Apparently, though. I didn't understand the vows and quests, because I got sidetracked very early on and endedup spending three sessions doing a bunch of fun things for an NPC. My understanding was that I needed to make another vow with that person and so I was running multiple vows and missions and quests. Eventually, I felt like I completed the secondary vow and went to complete it. The book said that I should roll against the difficulty, which I had set at the 2nd lowest. From what I could tell, I had to roll below my difficulty which seemed almost impossible to me. But I had clearly finished the quest! I actually went on a Reddit and asked for help and the creator of the game let me know that I messed up the vows and quests. I was filling in one hatch mark with each successful move when I should have been filling in two boxes per move. Which would have made a huge difference. I feel like I finally understand what I'm doing but I was so frustrated and thrown for a loop that I never went back to my next leg of the journey. I know I will someday, definitely, but for now I've just been taste testing other solo games.

My "problem" with Ironsworn and Starforge is that they are too "free form" for my taste. I see them more as a tool to write a book than as an RPG. Ofc, what an RPG *is* varies from person to person.

@doctor_foobario

10 ай бұрын

I know exactly what you mean. I have been playing an ironsworn campaign for a while now, and so far my "book" is a 60 page google doc. It's fun... but sometimes I don't want to be creative dammit, I just want to roll some dice and cast fireball and roast some fucking goblins :-D

@rpgchronicler

10 ай бұрын

​@@doctor_foobariome too! We all have murderhobo-ey desires to sate at one point.

@deathbare5306

7 ай бұрын

Yeah, that's my only criticism of it as well, easy to make a cool journal or book, but isn't particularly good with anything more than surface level detail. Still a great game though!

I am kinda like that with Ironsworn. I love the mechanics but I am kinda lost on what moves to use and when. Friend of mine found a move flow chart that makes things easier. Still it can be overwhelming. I still like it and have ideas to warp it to my simpler ways.

I started playing Starfodged and was having fun until I was facing space pirates. Even after all the vids I watched I'm still having trouble wrapping my mind around marking progress moves, timers, ect. I just skipped over that until I had to face them and got stuck. I'm undecided if I'll pick it up later, but I will be keeping the system for the SF oracles because they are AMAZING!

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

The oracles are great. I’m using them now in a game of Space Aces.

oh man, had the same experience with down we go sheet! that being said, I think its a pretty rad book, and think it will pair well with forbidden lands GM stuff! - great vid about IS. have much the same impression about SF. its system definitely inspired Fallen, but hopefully paired down. Solitary Defilement is one of the best solo products you can own!

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

I can see how the skills in Fallen were inspired by the moves, but I prefer your stripped down approach.

The thing I learned about Moves is they are not a list of all choices available at all times. There is generally 1 appropriate Move based on the scene, that may then lead to another move as part of the resolution, in a Flow Chart style "node to node" progression. So like DNA, it's very complex, but very orderly. The game tells you when to do a certain Move as a result of your previous action. Some appear frequently (Clash, React Under Fire) and some are momentous and infrequent (Test your Vow, Face Desolation). I personally love the Ironsworn sytem, but it certainly becomes easier once the player's mind clicks into the "stream of play" for the game's system. It's very inspired by Apocalypse World where every feature of play is a different Move, so that I, as player, don't have to figure out what to do beyond the broad strokes - the sequence of Moves inform the direction from there.

@TheDungeonDive

4 ай бұрын

Nice! Glad it clicked with you.

Fascinating. (Love the video.) I find it interesting that you like Mork Borg and dislike Ironsworn for the same reasons I dislike Mork Borg and love Ironsworn. I find Mork Borg way too rules-light and dislike how OSR-like it is. I love that Ironsworn has so many Moves (and I’m happy that Starforged has even more Moves, because I found myself wishing there were even more edge-case Moves in IS). I need and lean into the high scaffolding in Ironsworn: not only the Moves but the dice results.

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

It's really great that there are so many viable options for us all now.

@Kanakadea

Жыл бұрын

@@TheDungeonDive I agree! Thank you again for developing the “Solo TTRPG Multi-Spectrum Descriptions” system. It’s a fantastic way to codify these kinds of different experiences.

My first pass at Ironsworn also left me paralyzed for choice. I found the Loadstar supplement and gave it another go. I found that I just didn't like the crunch. Then I remembered a passage in the book that talked about zooming in and out of the action and that not everything needs a roll. I actually ran my first adventure in about 5 hours of play using mostly Ask the Oracle, weighting the Yes results according to context and using the Action and Theme Oracles. I did use the moves when I desired more detail, but really for the key moments or for those moments I felt would be most important to completing the Quest. Of course, it's the same old conundrum: if you drop or change the rules of a game are you really playing that game? Well, I played a whole game of D&D with my kids where we just rolled a D20 vs a target number for everything including combats. It was still D&D in our opinion, but a very lite version. Also very fast and my kids actually enjoyed the quickness and immediacy of their choices. So much so that it's become our go-to method. Personally, I'm having a lot more fun with Runecairn and can't wait for the Bestiary to go to print. I too enjoy quick, pick up and play rules with materials only needing a 1'x2' space to lay out. It's even better if I can just fold it all up into a book and move it aside on a moment's notice.

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

I prefer Runecairn as well. Can’t wait for the bestiary!

This kinda helped solidify on holding off on trying the sword games. Is there somewhere to purchase a physical copy of Down We Go? Was having trouble finding a physical copy as opposed to a pdf. Is fallen still available physical? Especially the cards. I have MS and have a hard time being crafty with my hands.

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

I’m not sure about physical versions of either of them. I got my Fallen cards from the Perplexing Ruins website. Maybe try contacting Allan there?

Totally agree regarding the moves. I find they do not migrate me into storytelling and adventure, but grind me down into mechanics that take me out of if the game and story.

I just can't get into Ironsworn. If I'm in the mood for bookkeeping I'll play d100 dungeon. If I want less rules / more story I'll use Solitary Defilement with something or Runecairn. Ironsworn/Starforged is just too much for me, although I definitely see why people love it.

@alejotm000

Жыл бұрын

It's funny because for me Ironsworn doesn't offer any bookkeeping at all, haha. I like keeping track of HP, character wealth, etc. and that's all gone in Ironsworn. It's way too narrative for me. When I play solo I want a game with clear rules that will not cause decision paralysis, and that is never the case with PbtA-based games, they're all to vague and narrative for my taste and I end up not knowing which move to use.

What is the box that you’re keeping your asset cards in (top left), please? Where can they be bought? Cheers, Alan, Nottingham (UK)

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

Hold-It Card Organizer.

This makes me wonder if I should play something like Vast Grimm instead.

I am sorry that your character's story won't continue online. It was engaging.

I had printed out the original Ironsworn rule book, all 270 pages, and took the time to 3-hole-punch every sheet and put them all inside a binder. When I finally got the time to sit down and play, I INSTANTLY became overwhelmed with just how expansive the rules were and all the different things I was going to have to refer to just to try and play the game correctly. I immediately abandoned ship. I came to the conclusion that I prefer single page games, or games with limited rules. I love games where I roll a die, and the game tells me what to do. More power to people that can enjoy games this well thought out, but I'll stick to 4AD, Basilisk, and Dark Tides.

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

I think you'll dig a SF game I'll be taking a look at soon - Space Aces.

@markperry1603

Жыл бұрын

Looking forward to that. I remember looking at space bases on KS passing bc there.seemed to be no game.

I came to the same conclusion with Ironsworn. Keeping track of various progress tracks with specific markingss, momentum, vows, etc. really bogged down the game and got in the way of narrative flow. With my character I kept just using one ability action over and over and that became repetitive. There is also a high threshold in the dice rolls for success. Instead I've found using Recluse Oracle (or Mythic on the Foundry VTT-just click buttons and the results appear) and a minimalist system like Risus or EZD6 to be more fluid and enjoyable

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

Yeah. We totally agree on that.

I totally get where you're coming from, except for when you were comparing an entire game system to just the solo rules of other games that are not solo games. You can't use Fallen's oracle or Black Sword Hack's solo rules absent a system of some kind. I mean, especially if you're someone new to solo rpg's. So it doesn't make sense to me to compare a game where the solo rules and system are one and the same to just the solo pages of a game where soloing is a supplement to the system. Other than that, and as a fan of Ironsworn, I still thought this was a really good, fair review. Pretty much exactly what I've come to expect from the Dungeon Dive!

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

I was simply pointing out what I like in a solo rule set. However, even with with rules Fallen is only about 32 pages, compared to 400. I don’t need all the moves and progress tracks. For me they got in the way of the game.

@BrentARJ

Жыл бұрын

I've always felt that what Shawn should have done up front is give you a "starter pack" of moves for your first few games and then let you add the more niche moves as you get more comfortable or find you need something more in the moment. You can really play through a quest with just Swear An Iron Vow, Face Danger, Secure An Advantage, Reach A Milestone, and Fulfill Your Vow, but it's hard to see that when all the moves are so tightly knit together with the progress tracks.

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

I like the way they’re handled in Fallen - they’re the skills your character knows.

I tried Ironsworn a couple years ago and managed to get 10,000 words of a novella written from my playthrough. The problem for me wasn't the mechanics, (granted Ironsworn have a few less moves than Starforged) because most of the moves are highly situational like swearing/forsaking a vow. If you can pair down the list a bit in your head it gets better. But my problem was just getting stuck in the story. If you get several misses in a row, you can really feel that the story is over. Of course maybe that's the point, every story ends sometime. But that's one of the nice moves that Starforged added: Change Your Fate so you don't get stuck on some storyline that you can't enjoy.

If im gonna play solo rpgs its likely gonna be either stuff like dnd 5e, basic fantasy or bugbears and borderlands with whatever solo oracle im using or a more gamey indie rpg. Tried og ironsworn and i cant seem to vibe with it or even pbta/fitd games in general. The closest i can get to pbta esque games is the LUMEN-type rpgs initially by Gila RPG for destiny/warframe based rpgs but ive yet to play it. Id be down to playing fabula ultima as a solo rpg though.

Have you tried Hostile Solo ? I heard that it is pretty good .

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

I have not.

Two comments. I think the beginner claim is legitimate from the following POV. You and I have decades of experience with games and fiction. Setups and plots flow with a little prompting. I can see how someone with less gaming experience could benefit from the detailed system and subsystems of this game. What I don't get about this hobby, in this age, is why these reference heavy games don't go digital. Yes, I know the joy of reading through a paper book; I even miss the smell of old paper when it wasn't chemically treated. Still, I would not enjoy constantly referencing charts.

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

I can see that. I know when I was first getting into solo RPGs, the systems like Mythic really turned me off because they were so much. I think just the number of pages of this would make it hard for me to recommend because it would simply require the person to spend a lot of time reading. But I can see how it might benefit some.

Saw black sword hack in the cover and I’m here lol! I too think heavy mechanics break part of the immersion, but I also get concerned when the solo rule is so little and might turn out to be a limited afterthought design, which is why I’m on the fence to get black sword hack, how’s your experience with BSH?

@TheDungeonDive

4 ай бұрын

I usually prefer a limited set of solo rules, just something to use as a foundation, upon which I am able to add any additional things I might find useful. I think the solo rules for Black Sword Hack are minimal, but they can get the job done, but they won't cover everything.

@yxygogo

4 ай бұрын

@@TheDungeonDive good point and fair enough solo rules for Black sword hack I guess, I will try it out when I have the chance!

What a great video thank you. I also felt bogged down a bit but also maybe I would of liked it more if it was a horror theme . I like the moves and i wish I was more into scifi but as a noobie at the time I avoided it for a while cause of how much it was but I do like the oracles and the dice rolling . I would say when it comes to mythic the second edition is good to read through and helped me understand more what I look for. I had a good alount of success with mythic one page rules and felt it went pretty well playing a Batman rpg

Seems to me the problem is that you're looking at the moves as one big list. The TYPE of move matters. So, unless you're in combat, for example, ignore the combat movies. By category there are just a small set for each. And in combat, there are really only two moves when you're in control, and 2 moves when you are not in control. Then there is one for trying to end the combat or escape it. Organize the moves by category - never just a mass alphabetical list of the moves - and it will be much easier.

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

Or just play another game I like more. :) not sure why so many people think I need to like this game.

@Daniel-Strain

Жыл бұрын

@@TheDungeonDive Sure, true. I wasn't really talking about you (I shouldn't have used "you're") - it's just a general tip or FYI for people trying to handle the large list of moves. Best wishes :)

@TheDungeonDive

7 ай бұрын

@@Daniel-Strain I gotcha. Totally understand.

Great video. My experience with Starforged is that the Truths and the Random Tables are excellent, but that all the stuff you have to keep track of is just too much bother. Also, and this is a personal peeve of mine, it really bugs me when they don't give you everything you need to play the game in the product that you've bought. It's great that you can download the Assets and stuff for free from the website, but would it kill them to put it in the actual book?

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

The book is already pushing 400 pages, and they’d only be able to fit 4 cards per page with the size. I think the way they did it is perfect.

If I watched the video and read the comments without knowing which TTRPG they were about, I would never guess this was about Ironsworn. This is a total 180 of my own experience. I came into it from more "traditional" TTRPG circle (mostly had experience with running D&D, some WFRP and Call of Cthulhu as a player). About 2h after I learned Ironsworn existed, I was in the middle of my first adventure. That's how long it took to get the free core book, understand the core mechanics, create the setting and my character, and flip through the rest of the book to understand where other relevant information was so that I could refer to it easily. I've played since before Delve came out, solo and in co-op, and it's my favorite TTRPG system ever. Endlessly inspiring, with excellent presentation, precise language, well-curated random tables and clear structure. And the book is easy to read, which is not at all common in TTRPG manuals, which tend to make my eyes glaze over. If anyone is discouraged after this review and the comments, I recommend checking out Shawn Tomkin's own examples of play, The Bad Spot campaign (just finished playing a long Starforged story) and the season of Me, Myself and Die which used core Ironsworn rules. You need to come to this particular table with clear understanding what it means to switch from in-character player stance to out-of-character narrator stance, and I think these are great examples of how to do it right. Matt Risby of The Bad Spot has a couple of player advice videos for Ironsworn too, well worth the watch!

@dziooooo

2 ай бұрын

And I have to say that I'm baffled by the comments about the game requiring a lot of stat tracking and housekeeping. It's... it's literally four numbers, with a couple of progress tracks to pay attention to at any given time? And the game very clearly prompts you to update those as you play?

@TheDungeonDive

2 ай бұрын

So stoked that you love this game! It always feels so good when we find a game we really connect with. That's what it's all about! Keep on playing the games you love!

@dziooooo

2 ай бұрын

@@TheDungeonDive I think it's because I often see negative opinions of this game that are just uninformed. Not based on what the game is or how it plays, but on "oh no, so many pages, I'm not reading that", or on "I misunderstood a core rule so the game sucks", or on "it's not like That One Game I Already Like, I think, I'm not sure, I haven't really tried it". I'm not saying your video is an example of it, you did give it a go and decided it wasn't for you, that's absolutely valid. But some of the comments here sure sound like that, and it's a very frustrating thing to see. Feels like being an avid cyclist and running across someone who tried riding a bike once, fell off, and now is running around and telling anyone who will listen that bikes are ridiculous leg-breaking machines and they objectively suck. 😉

@dziooooo

2 ай бұрын

And it's especially frustrating since I kinda always approach new TTRPGs from the position of curiosity, you know? And Ironsworn has a very active community and excellent resources, examples of play and reference materials, so it's not like a new player is stuck blindly blundering through on their own with no guidance available. Dismissive attitude and lack of curiosity are something I personally find very frustrating to deal with, and a lot of negative comments about Ironsworn (and other less popular TTRPGs in general) really read as an apathetic "couldn't be bothered" rather than "this is not for me".

@TheDungeonDive

2 ай бұрын

I love your passion! However, in my criticism of this game I'm not being dismissive. I've been playing hobby games since the 1980s, so over the many decades of discovered what I like and don't like about games. As I constantly, CONSTANTLY try out new games (many, many dozens every year), I evaluate those games based on the things I like and don't like. I am an incredibly discerning consumer, and very, very critical of the things I love and don't like, because I have very limited funds and space. Additionally, as far as curiosity goes, I am CONSTANTLY discovering new games and sharing my love for games on the channel. As an example, I have an episode posting soon for a game for which there are no other videos on youtube, and I love it. It's one of the very best solo RPGs I've played in a very long time. Because of my curiosity I spend hours a week tracking down new and interesting things to share with people, and I found this game, bought it, loved it, and made a detailed video about how amazing it is. I just don't happen to love your favorite game. :) And that's fine. I play so many of these games, and, honestly, Starforged probably wouldn't even make it on my top 100. It's just not for me, or I'm not for it. I prefer things like Mork Borg w/ Solitary Defilement, Scarlet Heroes, Fallen, Space Aces, We Deal in Lead, Little Town, Runecairne, Four Against Darkness, D100 Dungeon, 2D6 Dungeon, Broken Shores, Sacrifice, Dragonbane, etc.

Thanks for this video. I have Starforged and I love it! If you ever want to give away the original Ironsworn please let me know. I would love to have it. Thanks for your videos! I’m subscribed and look forward to them!

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

Thank yo!

I jumped into Ironsworn years ago & jumped right back out. It was just too much for me. I have since found that too many tools & too many rules just bog me down. I end up reading rules more than actually playing which becomes annoying. I now want to be able to go from itch to play & an idea to table as quickly as possible.

I got this recently, didn't realise you did a video on it lol. It isn't for me either. I expected it to be more of a "game" than a "write your own book with a bunch of prompts". Interestingly i think the amount of actions available would be a positive if it wasn't so "minds eye". I guess was looking for something like 4AD (a well structured and clearly defined gameplay experience) in space, only with the complexity of an explorable universe. Which this absolutely is not. But man is that art and all those ideas really neat.

For me I like games that don’t hold my hand and make me update lists and checks. It feels more like a board game than a RPG. I just want to make a great story on the way and not bother with the administration 😅

From my initial impressions of Ironsworn, it strikes me as a system with too much focus on numerical tracks. Although each of those tracks are supposed to represent a theme or plot line, they still pull me out of the fiction when it regularly feels like I'm just rolling for, and pushing, values on various tracks. However, the many oracle tables that come with Starforged are great for utilizing with other systems so there is still value in it for me.

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

The oracles are indeed great!

Ok, not every game needs to be made for everyone to like, that is fair, but theres some fair and unfair points on the video. Lets adress first the mentality of ironsworn. In ironsworn it is sayd "first envision the action and then you do the move". This is a big KEY how ironsworn works. You stated at the 19:46 "i was never siting down on the table thinking what move should i make". You dont make moves, you envision the action and the action tells you what move to make. You dont pick [clash] to defend from an enemy, you defend from an enemy so that will make you use the [clash] move. This is a big mentality that it needs to be made in ironsworn, first the role play, them the mechanics. Comparing the Delifement suplement and saying that it have all that ironsworn have with less pages is not fair to. It have the solo rules, but then you need to add morkborg rules to. That sayd, yes, ironsworn - starforged have a big number of moves, but moves are the rules like in any other rpg. For example, falling from a bridge, drawning, get under a falling trap and many other things that in some rpg have it seperated rules, in ironsworn you do the face danger move. That sayd there are moves that was created in ironsworn - starforged that , in my pov, was unecessary, like the Session moves, but at this point, why not make it into moves? Many people get unconfortable with the book size of Starforge, but in that book there are entire page art, schemes, index, etc... adding to that the font size is readeble, what all that makes the size count up. Many people dont like to read and "waste" time reading... what is fair... becouse that are the light rule ttrpgs. The diference is if some rule is not splicit you need to make that on the go. To add to what is sayd, moves add strocture to the game. After you doing a move it points you what to do next. In the light rpg is even open to what to do next. I agree with the page sheets that Shawn gives, is a god send. You can download that his website even without having to log or buy anything, and im not talking about just the PC sheet, im talking about all the sheets. I recomend people to start on ironsworn first and if they are having issues with the amount of ironsworn moves to get this www.drivethrurpg.com/product/301866/Travelers-Ironsworn-DIY-Edition? Ironsworn travel kit are the moves condensed into portable sheets, colour coded and easy to use and glance them all. Realy, it is a must... so mutch that im hopping to have the same at Starforged. Now talking about the World Trues, they are awsome. It makes world criation so easy and makes you think about what kind of game you could play. My main method to any solo rpg to start to play is defining some initial trues like in ironsworn. That all sayd, is fair not everyone agree with all and it is fair for any game to not be liked by everyone. We all win with that. That lead to new creators making new stuff. For anyone that dont like ironsworn or starforged and see it as a tool, instead of buying the book buy just the reference book. It have so many, so many , SO MANY, tables that can be used in others rpgs. Great video anyway, we dont need to agree in everything, but still good video

@IAcePTI

Жыл бұрын

Ok i just want to add something. I know you dident like it mutch and recomend you to buy a suplementary book for something that you dident liked is kinda weird, but still, i recomend you to get the free Ironsworn and his supplementary book Delve. Why? You could use Delve in other rpgs. Delve is like the Mythic Adventure Crafter (if im not mistaken), that you define some stuff you could enconter and define/roll some themes for the dungeon. That themes "points" you to what you will see in the dungeon. Is realy great. But again, you may or may not like it and recomend to get something for a game that you dont like is harder XD

@IAcePTI

Жыл бұрын

Just out of curiosity, what you think about the characters "roles" be made by ussing asset cards? Do you like the asset cards be used as skills/objects instead of more rules?

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

Glad you love it so much!

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

The game is being given away to a Patron soon. :)

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

The asset cards were, for me, just more rules to remember and forget about. I just prefer more simple things when it comes to RPGs.

There is no scifi game that can replace traveller.

@danacoleman4007

Жыл бұрын

Lol

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

Never played it. Always wanted to check it out.

@rpgchronicler

Жыл бұрын

You know with how dedicated traveller is, you'd think someone would make a fan film of it...

Sounds like you enjoy a loose story session instead of a game. That’s cool, I love the mechanical progression that starforged walks you through. Also feels like you didn’t have the patience to dig into the book and grasp the mechanics, not that you aren’t capable, you just had other shiny things that you wanted to work on. It’s a pity, it is a good game and a negative voice hurts it.

@TheDungeonDive

7 ай бұрын

I'm super stoked for you that you love it so much! Your passion is very apparent!

Comparing the solo rules of other games to Ironsworn: Starforged by pointing out the page count of just the solo play rules in those game is a misrepresentation, IMO. The solo play page count of, say, We Deal in Lead and the Black Sword Hack incorporate the rest of the rules of those perspective games and aren't standalone products in and of themselves. If you were to apply the same treatment of singling out the solo play mechanics for Ironsworn: Starforged, you'd also get a vastly trimmed page count as well. Heck, you can probably get one page out of it by singling out the Oracle Move. I get that you're trying to make a case for how much simpler solo play has been presented in other games than it has in Ironsworn or Mythic GM emulator, but this method you employed her is disingenuous. Please do better next time by avoiding this selective presentation of solo play page count for one game but not for the one you're critiquing.

@TheDungeonDive

Жыл бұрын

I’m super stoked you love it so much!