I agree with this guy.

Imagine how much more productive they'd be if they were paid properly in the USA rather than being forced into poverty and exploitation within the USA, too.

@Stikibits

10 жыл бұрын

***** Paying people properly is no problem for any viable business. It's the mindlessly greedy and unskilled business people who need to exploit and create poverty. If you can't afford to pay people properly, then you're not capable of running a viable business. All you're creating is greed, poverty and exploitation based on bullshit. These supposedly business minded Americans know fuck all about business. They can't even pay their employees properly; bums!

@devourerofbabies

10 жыл бұрын

***** Employers don't pay their workers.

The thing that I think is being skipped over here is that poverty leads to crime and increasing one would increase the other, I don't think any policy that encourages decreasing wages will have any beneficial effects to society.

@slimjim77M

10 жыл бұрын

He knows this , Patrick. This guy is looking to do damage with his "policies"

@devourerofbabies

10 жыл бұрын

slimjim77M He doesn't care about doing damage. Damage is irrelevant. What he's looking to do is increase profits for corporations, and if the average guy gets hurt he doesn't give a fuck one way or the other.

Just because somebody is 'unskilled' doesn't mean they don't need to survive, or can be exploited, but you can't explain that to irrational libertarians.

@instantdebris

10 жыл бұрын

"Libertarian"

@Stikibits

10 жыл бұрын

instantdebris twatever

@devourerofbabies

10 жыл бұрын

If a job requires a human to do it, then that human requires a humane wage. Libertarians are like dine and dashers. They want people to do the work, but they don't want to pay the bill.

@devourerofbabies

10 жыл бұрын

instantdebris Thank you, orthography police.

@Stikibits

10 жыл бұрын

devourerofbabies Libertarians, like all tyrants, don't mind causing suffering for others to gain profit and personal gains for themselves. Libertarians, like all tyrants, can only ever create poverty and exploitation to line their own pockets.

"Dey terk mer jerbs!" - Jobs aren't your property. If a foreigner is better suited for a job than you, there is no reason I shouldn't be able to hire him over you. Being born on a certain part of a map doesn't entitle you to a job, merit does. "Buy they'll commit crimes and terrorism and stuff!!!!!" - Because citizens totally don't commit crimes. Maybe we should make it illegal for people to be born. "But they'll get welfare!" - Argument against the welfare state, not immigration. I somewhat agree that you can't open the borders while the welfare state exists, but that's just another reason to get rid of the welfare state ASAP. "They'll vote in statists!" - Except in a libertarian society, the government wouldn't have the power to force people's statism (the statism of immigrant and natural born citizen alike) on others, no matter how many statists there are. Or if you take libertarianism to its logical conclusion and go full ancap, there would be no government at all. "Muh white race!!!"/"A nation without borders is not a nation!!!!" - GTFO. You are a conservative, not a libertarian (applies to my first and second points too).

I just heard about a guy talking about scenarios that never exist, hypothetical scenarios, and not a shred of evidence to back anything up.

@devourerofbabies

10 жыл бұрын

In other words, you just listened to a Libertarian.

@somebody3143

6 жыл бұрын

Elder Klein this is the basis upon which every single libertarian argument or discussion, excluding the end of the war on drugs and wars in general, is founded. They operate purely in the hypothetical and “what if,” realm. These people are spared from the consequences of reality.

@firstlast9916

2 жыл бұрын

@@somebody3143 pretty sure everything starts out libertarian. 99% of current immigration laws are less than 30 years old. They change every year. So libertarian borders were 1950s. Except for Ellis island which was libertarian before 1923.

Productivity has nothing do with the availability of labour though? It has to do with the power labour has over the productivity being produced. Does this man know that there are already 3 applicants for every available job? Free immigration would only increase the amount of power capitalists have over labour increasing wage slavery.

@devourerofbabies

10 жыл бұрын

Excellent analysis.

Subbed all over again =) very encouraging to see David have an intelligent discussion like this

The fact that we broke down certain rules of association, basically caused leading African Americans to leave the Black community and that caused a great decline in the quality of the Black community across America. We saw an implosion of the inner cities of America, because those African Americans who could, who had the money and the success, they could get out of that environment. Where as in years pasted they pretty much felt a responsibility to be among their own people and lead them and to make sure that the environment they lived in was decent for their children. It was kind of like a beheading of the Africa American community. Its very similar to what goes on in terms of mass immigration into Europe and America. Where people go get trained in Europe to become doctors or scientists or whatever and so what do they do, they stay in Europe. They don't go back home and help their people who need scientists and doctors and educators and, you know, government knowledgeable people and economists. they don't do that, they end up going to Europe and so that nation is continually beheaded because the individual gets a little better life in the United States or in Great Britain or France.

Great idea, when the lawyers and doctors in the U.S. start competing with their counterparts that make less money I'll go for it. .

@efletch91

10 жыл бұрын

We'll be fine (technically I'm a medical student, not a doctor yet). U.S. medical graduates already apply for residencies in a market flooded by international medical graduates, but they only actually compete at the margins because there is heavy bias against foreign medical schools because many of them either have shaky reputations (certain Caribbean med schools) or are unknown quantities to residency directors (other foreign med schools). Most IMGs end up going into family practice or other less popular residencies while AMGs tend to specialize. Only the top IMGs will compete with AMGs for truly competitive or specialist residency spots. Also, relatively few AMGs go into family medicine anyway so they don't compete that much with the IMGs, but there's a severe labor shortage of primary care docs anyway, so the chance that it is international competition that makes primary care unprofitable is very very low (it's more often the reimbursement scheme that is just fundamentally unfavorable).

@devourerofbabies

10 жыл бұрын

Evan Fletcher Out of curiosity, which other country's medical degrees are generally respected? For example, is a Canadian or British or Australian medical degree generally treated the same as an American medical degree? Or is there always some level of bias?

We had better be very careful about increasing without limit the population of the US. Population is the big game-changer in human affairs. It has driven up the price of real estate and land in this country drastically over the past few decades, and made it less possible now for people of ordinary means to secure a home. Is no one doing any thinking on the subject of what constitutes an optimal population for the US? We've built up a very fine country over the past 400 years here, we don't want it to turn into a third-world slum, which is what it would become with unlimited population growth. We have a lot to preserve here, and we have the right and obligation to preserve it. Let's have some clear thinking on this all-important subject.

"Wages in rich countries are determined more by immigration control than anything else, including any minimum wage legislation. How is the immigration maximum determined? Not by the ‘free’ labour market, which, if left alone, will end up replacing 80-90 per cent of native workers with cheaper, and often more productive, immigrants. Immigration is largely settled by politics. So, if you have any residual doubt about the massive role that the government plays in the economy’s free market, then pause to reflect that all our wages are, at root, politically determined." --Ha-Joon Chang, 23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism Here's a great excerpt for anyone interested. www.truth-out.org/news/item/1505:there-is-no-such-thing-as-a-free-market

@devourerofbabies

10 жыл бұрын

_How is the immigration maximum determined?_ That's the question David should have asked this douchebag. One envisions all 1 billion Chinese packing up and moving to the US. Of course, that's impossible. There are physical limits to the amount of immigration possible. There isn't enough room in all the world's rich countries to accommodate even a fraction of workers from poor countries. This leaves you with a scenario whereby rich countries are hit by an influx of cheap labor, making American (or Canadian or British or etc) workers compete with Chinese wages, but it won't be enough to force wages up in China. What you're left with is a race to the bottom without anybody benefiting other than the 1%.

@devourerofbabies

10 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the excerpt btw.

Interesting David. Glad you had this guest on. Will have to look into this 'free immigration' more. It sounds like a great, fair and humane policy. And when I'm PM of Australia (ahahahem) or a congresswoman in U.S.A I might try to legislate this policy (wishful thinking I know) :-P

Last night, when i was laying in my bed, I was looking at the stars, Then i realised, Where is my roof? ._.

So, basically, you can just compare well-off countries with poor countries and eventually, everywhere will turn into the average.

Watch this guy change his tune when millions of Libertarian Economists from India come to the U.S. and take his job away because they work cheaper.

@saltysnacky

10 жыл бұрын

There are virtually no restrictions on immigration if you have PhD, as Caplan points out in another interview. He seems to be doing fine anyway.

@dabes7827

8 жыл бұрын

+Hippasus He'll compete, that's capitalism.

This idea has many positive effects.

Except it doesn’t improve productivity. Look at Australia as an example

And he's a professor. A professor! He teaches his "theories" to students!

Free trade kills the American middle class. It sends our prosperity to other countries. Only the rich will benefit from free trade in the long run, because they will be able to provide labor for free or for minimum wage. They also mention how people are much poorer in other nations. It's very expensive to live in the US compared to other countries. The prices that we pay for goods are marked up, so we pay for every step that's completed from the beginning to the end. Also, there are millions of people unemployed because they have to so why make the problem worse.

@deannasmith4443

10 жыл бұрын

open immigration has the same effect by diluting the bargaining position of american labor... once again, libertarians show themselves to be concerned only for the privileged and wealthy.

@PixelDansIronFist

10 жыл бұрын

deanna smith Frank M Which is why we left-libertarians advocate for workers being free from exploitation before opening borders. Those factors combined would ensure the benefits of a free market deciding the best models without the suffering and misery that capitalist private property brings (which isn't personal property btw) Only anarcho-socialism=total liberation for all!!

@deannasmith4443

10 жыл бұрын

PixelDansIronFist left libertarianism is much closer to my own political philosophy... however, you still have a "state" whenever two individuals form a cooperative venture together.... so there is no such thing as a anarchist utopia. as i stated in a later comment further down the page, labor will never be able to move as quickly or freely as capital... and as such will always be at the mercy of the capitalist class... the only remedy for this is worker based cooperatives (oooo communism! scary). freedom of association, and freedom of movement/immigration are a must as well, but without worker control of the means of production you will only ever recreate the same vertical hierarchical tyrannies that we currently toil under.

@devourerofbabies

10 жыл бұрын

_It sends our prosperity to other countries._ No. It sends our prosperity to the 1%, from whichever country.

@simpleman72685

10 жыл бұрын

devourerofbabies Yeah that's the final place it goes to. Thanks for pointing that out.

Violence, that would be, I think the first thing to happen. Don't think that a lot of americans would not see it as a hostility against "our way of life/culture" and want to do violence against immigrants..

@devourerofbabies

10 жыл бұрын

That's a good point. Immigration should be restricted to protect immigrants from the increasingly hostile, xenophobic, and violent native population.

Besides the obvious problem so many people below these comments already brought up, what about the brain drain effect? Attracting all well educated and innovative people from around the world to your country leaves those underdeveloped nations with an intellectual deficiency, a bankruptcy of development potential.

@darthvader7888

8 жыл бұрын

+sogghartha "nations" don't matter. Only individuals do.

Can anybody say, Esperanto?

You can work anywhere. Just go there and find a job maybe as an illegal immigrant. If you like it then over stay your visa and nevr leave until you qualify for some govt grandfather immigration program. Maybe have a baby or two and there you go. Mission accomplished.

the guy say the good but leave out the worst doesnt explain nothing

Caplan said that people who favor helping other from their own country are nationalists? That's a pretty low mark to be a Nationalist. You guys also both kept referencing "short term" and "long term" without giving any idea how long you think that is. When Caplan said "it will bring more poverty in the short term I'm not going to sugar-coat it." How short is that? A decade?

@devourerofbabies

10 жыл бұрын

I hate to say it, but I'm in agreement with you this time. This guy is too much of a right wing extremist even for you.

@firstlast9916

2 жыл бұрын

1 year tops. People that can’t make money self deport. Been that way for 100,000 years. If you can’t feed yourself in one place, you move somewhere else.

Get yourselves over here in the UK and see what open borders is doing and has done and will potentially do if not restrained. The ramifications of open borders is a complete nightmare especially for the wealthier nations.This libertarian is talking out of his well polished arse. Open borders for sure, so long as the migrant has proof of employment in the country he wants to migrate to.If not,then stay where you are.Simples :)

Not interested in the type of country this man is promoting.

I say open em up.

so Libertarians are idealistic ....wow