Finally someone who gets it. Your analogy of the fire and how so many misinterpret getting burnt as God's wrath is spot on. God punishes no-one, God simply allows us to live and learn through actions and consequences. We are made in the image of God and God is love, therefore we are love. We suffer the consequences of our actions when we act out of accord with who we are.

@danmesser6129

Жыл бұрын

Loved how you worded that. :)

@57andstillkicking

9 ай бұрын

Without being born again, we are not love.

@Ben-Jembai

9 ай бұрын

@@57andstillkicking We have always been, and always will be love, being born again brings about awareness of this.

@57andstillkicking

9 ай бұрын

@@Ben-Jembai So you don’t believe we are born into Adam?

@Ben-Jembai

9 ай бұрын

@@57andstillkicking Yes I believe we are born into Adam. To be born into Adam is to be born into ignorance, we are blind. To be born again, to be born in the Spirit, is to see. To see the truth. The truth that has always been, and always will be, true....LOVE.

Thank you for your insight. I believe God’s wrath is just as you said - purposeful. Parents would be delinquent in raising their children if they did not address misbehavior. As the best Father ever, He corrects us with the right kind and amount of “attention” necessary to teach us how to love better for the benefit of all. If a child pushes his younger brother into the hot stove, the disobedient one will not feel the immediate heat, until God addresses the older child by His “wrath” in love for the long-term benefit of him, as well as his younger brother. Thank you for giving us more to think about.

Much needed. Thank you very much, Pastor Brian Zahnd.

God loved all of us before the beginning and no doubt God will love all of us after the end.

Yes ive suffered and still suffering the consequences of going against love

Thanks Brian, this is really enlightening and really great that it's packed into about 5 minutes. I remember somewhere in one of William Barclay's commentaries that he described God's wrath along the lines of His settled opposition to sin. Others have said it's Him allowing us to pursue (giving us over to) what we most desire. I wanted to go one step further at the end - but actually I'm glad you kept it to 5 minutes. You might agree that the "burning" of the wrath of God is purifying, to burn away the sin out of us. Maybe another video?

...if i may make a point i think is relevant to your well-made points: a friend of mine likes to say we should never forget there's another team on the field. the devil hates us all and delights in hurting or destroying us, when he has opportunity. he "goes about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour". when we stray from or rebel against God, his ways, his love, etc., we become accessible, to varying degrees, to the influence and harm the devil can unleash upon us. in this case, the wrath of God is that he steps back, so to speak, and allows it to happen. it isn't that he's angry and wants us to suffer. the opposite is true ["i take no pleasure in the death of the wicked", for example]. he always loves us. he always has and he always will.

@dorinamary7863

Жыл бұрын

I even understand it as us placing ourselves back under the dominion of the devil, and out of the dominion of the Father. He gives us free will, and with that we make choices, we learn and grow in God's love.

@paulpaulsen7245

Жыл бұрын

@Dorina Mary, you will one day understand two things: # to not waste your attention on the DEVIL, for he has no meaning anymore after Christ defeated him, and it is totally unhealthy for your spiritual life, for it prevents you to to view in all Christ, as Paul suggests believers, Col 3:2; # there is no real human free will besides God´s real free will, for God is able to perform even the things appearing impossible for humans, Luke 18:27. Greetings & love from Germany!

@dorinamary7863

Жыл бұрын

@@paulpaulsen7245 Are you saying since Christ defeated Satan for everyone, believers and unbelievers alike, that all are automatically free from Satan now whether they want to be or not? When Adam fell, Satan became the "ruler of this world", whom Jesus spoke of three times, and said He had come to defeat him, which He did for all those who believe and repent. Otherwise, Satan is still ruling the world, and has set up his kingdom through governments. How corrupt have they become, and who has facilitated that? Not the Father. And why would the Apostle Paul talk about what we must do to quench the fiery darts of the devil if they have no meaning, and many other statements that were made? I hope some day I will understand why you are avoiding my other question about priests and altars in the new testament era.

@paulpaulsen7245

Жыл бұрын

@@dorinamary7863, I´m sorry, but I gave an answer to your question about "priests and altars in the new testament era" - I put it again down under this post! And no, I did not say that Satan has no power anymore, but that we are not anymore in slavery of him, but live - whether we see it or not, the reason is Christ alone, independently of any human "wanting or not, Rom 9:16", you may read it - in the dominion of God´s son, Col 1:13 (you may read that too)! And each thinking on Satan & his minions makes no sense anymore, for why would you hold fast to someone having become insignificant? Why are you a torturing yourself? Do you love masochism? Are you convinced it will not hurt your soul? THE DEVIL HAS NO MEANING ANYMORE, BECAUSE ALL HAPPENING NOW HAS TO DO WITH CHRIST! PS: We live in a world God is at PEACE with & is not accusing with any of ACCUSATIONS AGAINST HER, 2 Cor 5:18-19, here in Greek, look it up for yourself what that means - τὰ δὲ πάντα ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ καταλλάξαντος ἡμᾶς ἑαυτῷ διὰ Χριστοῦ καὶ δόντος ἡμῖν τὴν διακονίαν τῆς καταλλαγῆς, ὡς ὅτι Θεὸς ἦν ἐν Χριστῷ κόσμον καταλλάσσων ἑαυτῷ, μὴ λογιζόμενος αὐτοῖς τὰ παραπτώματα αὐτῶν, καὶ θέμενος ἐν ἡμῖν τὸν λόγον τῆς καταλλαγῆς. Now you may think for yourself - why should this "λόγος τῆς καταλλαγῆς", this "WORD OF RECONCILIATION" remain an exlusive job of PRIESTS, POPES & SPECIAL PERSONNEL? In God´s kingdom there is PRIESTHOOD OF ALL! Here is my answer on your former question! If you shouldn´t have received it - please forgive me! I have no harm meant! So long from Germany!

@paulpaulsen7245

Жыл бұрын

@Dorina Mary , greetings & love before from Germany! Do you know why Catholics love their priesthood? Could it be that priests consider themselves being closer to God than the rest? Did Christ teach such thinking? Did he not think differently? Does Phil 2 from verse 5 on not tell of Christ refusing to get considered special but as viewed as bloody human? What does that tell you on the necessity of having PRIESTS in the church? See, that ist the reason protestants have no priests, but according to Eph 4:11 just ordinary humans in different positions without having a special ontological status, that means simply: they are not closer to God! Having a priesthood means generally division of believers. I´m aware that many people like that. And consider this as normal. The general protestant tradition has a different approach. It denies special ontological statuses being actually present with a priesthood. Protestant pastors are no priests. Pastors are not more than being the first under many for practical reasons of order. You obviously recognize the priesthood of Christ as only necessary mediator between humans & God. You are exactly right, dear Dorina Mary! This is the necessary basis for human salvation! You surely do also recognize those foolish ideas most Christians are infected with, are you not? Foolish ideas on priesthood & Christ & God in general! What if I told you that this seems pretty normal? Because it is deeply human to love to speculate on things appearing unclear & suspicious! God loves humans that He became Himself human in Christ! What about simply tolerate them instead of accusing them of heresy? Does not the love chapter of Paul, 1 Cor 13, in verse 7 show what love does? Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things! Exactly this told Christ his followers - By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another, John 13;35! Have a wonderful day, dear Mrs Dorina Mary! And if possible, find a porch swing & relax while reflecting on the truth the gentleman tells in this clip! Kindest regards from across the big pond! And thank you for your kindness & reference to your ancestor with the name MESSERSMITH! Amen. kzread.info/dash/bejne/iX5hs6iIodOfhKg.html

I am very interested in what you are saying about the early church fathers understanding "the wrath of God" as a metaphor. Please elaborate.

@Crime_Mime

11 ай бұрын

I know I'm late, but I was just reading Hymns on Paradise by St. Ephrem the Syrian, and in the introduction they show a hymn which argues this exact point - that God clothes himself with our language because of our weakness. That scripture tells us of his ears to show us that he listens to us, it tells us of his eyes to show us that he sees us. While there's no wrath or regret in God (and St. Ephrem specifically uses those words), he's coming down to our level and working within our limited language.

It's the same thing in Romans chapter 1: three times in a row it simply says God gave them over to do those things which were not convenient, that is simply saying God said hands off, whatever they did they brought it on themselves.

Please tell Brian I liked his thoughts on this.

I love when protestants talk like well educated and faithful Catholics like Thomas Aquinas

The wrath of God is from the ruler of this world, not the God of Christ.

I have come to the exact same conclusion.

@henrieecen2938

Жыл бұрын

As a persecuted David thirsted for God (Psalm 42) so it is also those who have had brokeness in their lives, that seem to understand God beyond adhering simply to taught theology. I as you in later life, and as Brian, have come to a God who is more beautiful gracious and merciful than the one preached by Calvin's Protestantism. No wonder the world has had trouble warming to a legalistic God, who is willing to allow His wayward children be tormented for ever because they failed to understand what Jesus was all about. Did He not say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do!" The Spirit of the Son within me gets so angry, at the institutional religiousity that has prevailed in the last few centuries. The church tainted with so much "fleshly" thinking has been a gross stumbling block to so many. Thank God that Jesus on the cross has reconciled ALL of creation back to the Father. And we who are IN Christ know this NOW and thus have our rest and peace. All else other faiths etc will know at their "last day." Greetings to you my brother IN Christ❤️

Rom 1:17 reads: δικαιοσύνη γὰρ θεοῦ ἐν αὐτῷ ἀποκαλύπτεται ἐκ πίστεως εἰς πίστιν, καθὼς γέγραπται · Ὁ δὲ δίκαιος ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται. Rom 1:18 reads: ἀποκαλύπτεται γὰρ ὀργὴ Θεοῦ ἀπ’ οὐρανοῦ ἐπὶ πᾶσαν ἀσέβειαν καὶ ἀδικίαν ἀνθρώπων τῶν τὴν ἀλήθειαν ἐν ἀδικίᾳ κατεχόντων... Are you aware of similarities & eventually a parallelism? I find one parallelism in the equally form of the passive ἀποκαλύπτεται = "it is revealed" in both consecutive verses. Additionally I see in Rom 1:17 in the personal pronoun αὐτῷ Christ. That gives me reason to understand the notion ἐκ πίστεως εἰς πίστιν = from faith of Christ to faith of mine. I am saved by Christ´s faith, my faith is just a response. So I translate Rom 1:17 - For the righteousness of God is revealed in him (= Christ) from faith (of Christ) to faith (of mine), as it has been written: The righteous one will live by faith (of Christ)! It appears no coincidence to find the parallel passive phrase ἀποκαλύπτεται again in the next verse 18 after verse 17 introduced Christ as God´s topos for righteousness (1 Cor 1:30 identifies Christ as God´s righteousness, Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, ὃς ἐγενήθη σοφία ἡμῖν ἀπὸ Θεοῦ, δικαιοσύνη...)! Verse 18 speaks from the revelation of God´s wrath from the heaven, ἀποκαλύπτεται γὰρ ὀργὴ Θεοῦ ἀπ’ οὐρανοῦ. What that is, remains unclear to me, but I recognize one thing: It must have to do with Christ too! I´m really unclear on what wrath of God means, but I see clearly later in Rom 3:21-22 the gospel revealed: 21But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets. 22And this righteousness from God comes through faith of Jesus Christ to all who believe. I recognize in the Greek text verse 22 a genitive preposition (διὰ) & a genitivus subjectivus (πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ) leading me to translate "faith of Christ" rather than "faith in Christ": δικαιοσύνη δὲ Θεοῦ διὰ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, εἰς πάντας τοὺς πιστεύοντας· That the ominous ὀργὴ Θεοῦ has to do with Christ & is thus enough consolation for me! There might happen to me whatever shall happen - with Christ on my side (actually I am a temple of God) all is fine. Thank you for this show, dear Love Unrelenting! Kindest regards from Germany!

This is so profoundly unbiblical. God is merciful AND just. The wrath of God might be an unpleasant doctrine to modern American ears, but it is a biblical doctrine. Nahum 1:2-3 "The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath. The LORD takes vengeance on his foes and maintains his wrath against his enemies. The LORD is slow to anger and great in power; the LORD will not leave the guilty unpunished. His way is in the whirlwind and the storm, and clouds are the dust of his feet."

@bw2442

Күн бұрын

Vengeance and wrath dosent equate to distroy and demolish or punish forever. Definitions are important

Yes, but there are beings that were created that are absolutely incapable of being within that love, so what of them? Sure their nature draws it's own consequences, but their nature is completely outside of their control. It is God-given. So in that sense they were set up for their own self-destruction and we are told that is fair and just.

Then theres that pesky flood.

Just exactly like in Romans chapter one where it says three times in a row that God gave them over, that's just another way of saying hands off, God just basically said , just go ahead on.

I like to say respect of God instead of fear of God. Fear creates a lotta problems & excuses & justifications.

I'd like to know how he interprets the commands of God when he has the Israelites do evil things, such as murder, plunder, rape, steal, etc. There must be a better way to understand this than the exoteric meaning.

@mattr.1887

Жыл бұрын

Unpopular opinion here, but I think this was actually a DIFFERENT God. ie, the Jewish tribal God. Not the same as the Christian God. Even some Jews agree with me on this, but Christians never do.

@cherryswirlchale9511

Жыл бұрын

@@mattr.1887that was Marcion’s early view but it is considered heretical.

@henrieecen2938

Жыл бұрын

No, God is the same in the OT and the NT. Revelation is progressive and much of the earlier OT describes God in the image of man. The early prophets begin to see God ultimately in the end, being through His grace, all merciful. Jesus completes the revelation of God fully. In fact God IN Jesus lays down His life for this broken and fallen world. " Greater love has no man but one who lays down his life for another." On the cross God fulfilled all righteousness Himself and thus reconciled ALL of creation. Calvinistic legalism, hell and everlasting torment etc. has done more to turn people away from embracing God. In ignorance or by malice while crucifying Jesus/God did we not hear the words "Father forgive them for they know not what they do!" God's universal restoration of ALL creation is His will. What God wills will be fulfilled. God does not lose! The problem has been that fundamentlist literal interpretation has discredited the Gospel. How often have we not heard" I can not believe in a God who allows all non Christian faiths and non believers, to suffer in the fires of hell eternally. As a church by taking metaphor and Jesus's rhetoric literally we have created a momentous stumbling block, for those in their hearts know that there is God in whom we live and have our being. No need for angst about evangelizing with Bible bashing, simply by our lives and loving others be a light demonstrating our inner Christ and yes....always be ready to give an account to those who ASK. Shalom❤

@dorinamary7863

Жыл бұрын

@@henrieecen2938 Which of the gods, or God and god of the Old Testament do you believe is the same as the New Testament? If you believe there's only one God or god spoken of in the OT, check out Hosea 4:11 and Malachi 9:1, both in the KJV. Also check out 2 Samuel 24, and 1 Chronicles 21. Then, add to that the fact that Jesus disapproved of and contradicted much of what the OT god said and did, and you have Jesus introducing us to the True Father, whom He said no one had ever seen or heard, nor could they. That only He, Jesus, had ever or could ever see or hear Him. No one in the OT ever heard the voice or God or saw His face. Either you believe that or you don't believe the words of Jesus?

@bobbystowe5951

11 ай бұрын

Well said. Shine on you crazy diamond!

How do you know that? God's passed. I hope you know that.

So, Satan is perhaps the most intelligent of all of God’s creation. If we humans can discern universal reconciliation from the scriptures, why can’t Satan?

How much of the Bible do I have to deny to believe Zahnd's interpretation?

@scottellis7024

9 ай бұрын

In its proper context? None.

@papi77on

4 ай бұрын

@scott - great answer

Sophistry.

@jasonegeland1446

Жыл бұрын

Actually, Brian is pretty much spot on. Philosophy can be quite beneficial in understanding Scripture. That is, unless you already have all the answers yourself. In what way exactly, do you think he is falsely representing God's wrath?

@williamoarlock8634

Жыл бұрын

@@jasonegeland1446 'God' is false period/full stop.

Universalism has gained much popularity of late because of Christian’s deconstructing. But there’s a problem nobody is looking at; it is deconstruction from anger not from humility. Instead of repentance tjeu are seeking justification for their behavior (sin), they want a god who will justify their desires and grudges etc. So then some universalist churches are all too willing to validate their sin because, the reasoning goes, if we have been reconciled then we are not held to account. God’s love has become defined as a love for sin not in spite of sin. This is the issue; what does love mean in scripture? I would say if one seeks to use the mere want or desire of a person we have made an idol. Love is not validation of what we desire it is a cutting away from the world to follow God’s will.

@TheHumbuckerboy

Жыл бұрын

@@brianbachinger6357 Well said.

@christianuniversalist

Жыл бұрын

@@brianbachinger6357 I’m a universalist. I’m arguing against woke universalism.

@christophergibson7155

Жыл бұрын

I would like to say a big "Amen" to this. You rarely see such solid explanations regarding the universalist's false belief system. Michael McClymond says "Grace extended to everyone, undermines grace to anyone." I have not read his massive two volume book called. "The Devil's Redemption". Maybe one day though, I'll attempt to do that. My experiences with the universalist is that they look at all other Christians outside of their position, as them gloating over the destiny of the ungodly. Sort of like, "They deserve what they get, and good riddance to you!" In revivals of the past, men and women of God wept over the lost. Sentimentalism has a huge part in the universalist's thinking. They make up a God that does not exist. One they feel comfortable with. Yet the truth of God's Word show forth His character over and over again. God is Love. Shown through His Son Jesus Christ. God is Holy, Righteous, and Just. Psalm 19:9 says..."The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether." Again in Psalm 119:160 "The entirety of Your word is truth, and every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever."

@christophergibson7155

Жыл бұрын

@@brianbachinger6357 You are deceived. You have denied the words of The Lord Jesus Christ. You have your basket full of universalist agenda scriptures. It is the same each and every time. Push the "all" and that "everlasting", "eternal", and "forever" are age abiding. Well, you best look at Matthew 25:46 as a start. The words "everlasting" punishment for the ungodly, and "eternal" life for the righteous are the very same in the Greek language. It means "forever, without end." So, the believer and disciple of Jesus Christ has no hope. His eternal life in Christ is only for an age. Ridiculous !

@christophergibson7155

Жыл бұрын

@@TheHumbuckerboy Poorly presented.