That's actually pretty good. Obviously not the peak of production technology - it's not gonna work for everything, but it's another new process of making stuff. You now have more options. It is bound to be excellent for making lots of parts better cheaper and faster than what we have so far. I only hope they don't make it proprietary and prohibitively expensive.

@QiwiPear

Жыл бұрын

Your only hope is the opposite of what motivates them.

@Stoddlez

Жыл бұрын

@@QiwiPear Not true. Stratasys fdm printers use proprietary hardware and chipped filament. You could only buy material from them. Their business is losing sales and you don't hear about them any more because people that do additive manufacturing for profit would rather use something that actually makes money. The more options that people are given, the better the competition. The fairer printer manufacturers and ones that use open source have historically done better. e.g Prusa.

@QiwiPear

Жыл бұрын

@@Stoddlez I simply set the bar low when it comes to this stuff, they're all smiley and confident and then I probably never hear of it again because of their greed

@Stoddlez

Жыл бұрын

@@QiwiPear You're right about that. It's so sad. I just want to print great things but it's usually too restrictive to be used at all.

@firewoodloki

Жыл бұрын

@@QiwiPear Then their motivation is the opposite of the need of the market.

Would have been interesting to hear what the material strength is when it comes to compression, tension, shear, etc and how it compares to other materials.

@uiopuiop3472

Жыл бұрын

yest, its compressd. using hudraulic piszton.

@IkarimTheCreature

Жыл бұрын

@@uiopuiop3472 he wasn't inquiring about the manufacturing process, he's asking about the finished material properties. so compression in this context means like a sand castle is build with compressable sand that will fail when pulled e.g. tensile stress.

@Helveteshit

Жыл бұрын

He is a seller, he won't willingly speak about the bad points of his product. That kinda defeats his purpose of being at the convention.

@parttimehuman

Жыл бұрын

@@Helveteshit Yeah. That’s kinda what I subtly alluding to. You know they’d put that info front and center if it were favorable.

How strong is it actually though. The lack of numbers is really concerning. Also the sheet process makes it seem like tensile strength is only dominant in one plane

@ddegn

Жыл бұрын

I'd also like to see some numbers on this. I agree the tensile strength sure looks like it will be limited between the layers.

@chris2790

Жыл бұрын

@@ddegn there are no layers after compressed and heated. It melts to a solid part with embedded carbon.

@ddegn

Жыл бұрын

@@chris2790 The plastic binder may not have layers after melting but the embedded carbon remains layered. There is likely a large strength difference in the part depending on the orientation it is tested.

@DerSolinski

Жыл бұрын

The numbers are printed on the transparent in the background.

@giedrius2149

Жыл бұрын

@@DerSolinski "high strength" is the most unscientific thing I've heard in a while. tensile strength? sheer strength? bending? 15x faster print? 15x faster than what? If someone actually had a good product they would not shy away from actually stating the facts. But hiding them behind marketing tactics says everything

Cool idea. I imagine you could parallelize it to do many sheets at once and really speed up the printing time part of the process.

@haydenc2742

Жыл бұрын

Big 4x8 foot sheet of this...like a full sheet of plywood then panelize all the objects...print em, stack em, bond em, then run em thru a huge sandblaster to separate the parts... Very cool!!!!

@Rathmun

Жыл бұрын

It looks like their top-of-the-line system is already a continuous feed printer. Raw print speed of 10,000cm^3/hour, or closer to 3000 when you account for the packing density of your parts. I'm sure it costs more than my yearly income, but damn.

@sNpeR1080

Жыл бұрын

@@Rathmun I think the heating and pressing would be the bottle-neck.

@Rathmun

Жыл бұрын

@@sNpeR1080 Maybe. I expect that in a large industrial setting you'd have fixtures that just consist of a pair of plates held together with bolts to apply pressure, and then send them through a conveyor oven. Or maybe the top plate is just weighted and slides on smooth rods so it applies the same pressure despite thermal expansion. That might end up back on the printer being the bottleneck.

@BigDollars360

Жыл бұрын

​@sNpeR1080 make it like a domino's pizza oven. In goes sheets. Out comes parts. Interesting idea.

Seems more expensive than SLM, which has much stronger parts than any plastic reinforced with carbon fiber (Caveat being conductivity Thermal/Electric.) They are marketing it as additive manufacturing, but you have to sandblast away carbon fiber which is not capable of being recycled directly back onto the process.

@user-lx9jm1wo3h

Жыл бұрын

for now.

@MrJoerT

Жыл бұрын

​@@user-lx9jm1wo3h randomly having faith in future tech doesn't make that tech feasible 😂

@420247paul

Жыл бұрын

@@MrJoerT poo-pooing on it doesn't make it unfeasible either, so what was your point again? 🤣

@jbwalker841

Жыл бұрын

It is indeed an additive process. The process is called sheet lamination and this application seems to be combined with material jetting process. In SLM, DED, etc, nearly every single part needs post processing. If we dont consider it additive because of the post processing, nearly every additive application would be considered hybrid. There are a number of different additive methods and they all have their applications. SLM/SLS is extremely expensive. Not sure how much this system costs, but I would venture to guess that SLM is not cheaper. A DED additive system such as Meltio is 250k USD plus more for options. And that is a relatively low priced DED system. A Matsuura Lumex is over $1m as of a few years ago (powder bed fusion machine). Then the costs of the powders ($$) and the safety equipment and handling processes, etc. Then the NDT processes and equipment, etc. The wire EDM to separate the part from the build plate, the milling machine to resurface the build plates. Its no small feat to implement SLM/SLS. So I would say that it is definitely not cheaper than this process. This process however, looks to be SIGNIFICANTLY faster than SLM as well.

@noelblattler5511

Жыл бұрын

@@jbwalker841 crazy good argument. Would 100% agree as a SLS printing professional.

I'd be curious about the layer adhesion strength since the fibers are only oriented in 2 dimensions. Plus, if they are bonded in a press, they might have inherent vertical strain in the objects depending on the pressures used.

@petermarin

Жыл бұрын

Exactly… everything about this sounds like existing processes, but worse

@conorstewart2214

Жыл бұрын

Since the sheets aren’t woven, during the melting stage the fibres might get pressed and mixed between layers. If the plastic is molten whilst being pressed then it shouldn’t really create any stress within the material.

@desparzaification

Жыл бұрын

There may be all sorts of inherit issues, but they will be on a diffferent level compared to traditional printing. So whatever flaws you find it will have already been in a class of its own

@per.kallberg

Жыл бұрын

All high performance composites are manufactured under pressure. This seems to be top notch. Carbon/PEEK is about as good as it gets. Layer strength will be very high thanks to the PEEK. Carbon/epoxies has 10MPa in between the layers an this should be higher.

@adamwiddowson8254

Жыл бұрын

I've worked with Roboze's Carbon Peek FDM and witnessed the major difference in XY vs Z strength. Hard to educate customers & find applications that only have forces acting in the "correct" direction.

Use cases are clearly limited but there are some that will definitely benefit from this. The blades look really great for example.

@panchociarer

Жыл бұрын

i don't know how well it scales with bigger objects, but being able to make production parts without a mold is crazy. although i guess its a moot point since you can also 3d print the molds

@julianreverse

Жыл бұрын

Limited? 😂😂😂😂🤦‍♂🤦‍♂

@Gromic2k

Жыл бұрын

@@julianreverse actually extremely limited. The list of disadvantages is long

@paulwal222

Жыл бұрын

@@Gromic2k Such as?

@AviatorXD

Жыл бұрын

@@paulwal222 You have to print the same thing over and over again to make a single thing, in molding for example you just have one mold that can create multiples of the same thing almost instantly. Also alot of waste product from sand blasting literal carbon fiber.

Every day we get a step closer to PEEK performance…

@thomasbarlow4223

Жыл бұрын

Peek? Whats that mean

Wouldn't part geometry be limited to what you can sandblast? Much more restricted than what e.g. FDM can make. @6:24 The trademarked name is "Impossible Objects", but that looked like something that could be CNC easily.

@tylernope2752

Жыл бұрын

no... take another look at that lol.

@thingswelike

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, you can't have infill for example (no access to blast), but that's true of laser sintering too. But sandblasting sounds trickier than air blasting powder away. On the other hand your support material in laser sintering often needs some pretty aggressive removal techniques compared to sandblasting. On balance I'd say this was interesting tech and uniquely placed for certain applications.

@DerSolinski

Жыл бұрын

As long you have completed channel, internal cavities shouldn't be an issue. The stuff rips apart like sandpaper while being fluffy like cotton candy. So there isn't really the need for high power sandblasting. The interesting part I see here is the ability to influence density to a degree inside the part. This can have benefits for strengths and provide dampening properties. The big issue with this process is waste, it is seems that the excess material isn't recoverable.

@FPVtrix

Жыл бұрын

@@DerSolinski if the carbon is dried enough I imagine it could be used as a form of "milled" cf?

@beartankoperator7950

Жыл бұрын

If this needs to be pressed, unsupported voids are likely not possible, the issue would not be getting the waste material out but getting the necessary pressure to laminate the layers to spec

This is awesome. The ability to do most of the work at room temp is astounding.

@dronefootage2778

Жыл бұрын

astounding? i print at about 210 C, that's astounding too, oh an my freezer is pretty cold, also astounding :D

@Gromic2k

Жыл бұрын

yeah, great. Replace 210°C printing with strong chemicals and the need to sandblast every part. What a gain

@rustyshackleford3053

Жыл бұрын

Sounds less hassle than resin honestly.

@Gromic2k

Жыл бұрын

@@rustyshackleford3053 Yeah it sounds like, but if you look closely, you realise that it's much much much more complicated. It even involves the dangerous chemicals part

Unbelievably cool, what a unique process!

What's great about this method is that it's relatively low tech. I'm sure their proprietary machine currently costs a million dollars, but I think this process could be done in a way that is affordable on a home machine.

@ShakesB13r

Жыл бұрын

yeah, just a sheet with a steady thickness that could be bought and massproduced. known ink-jet technology, vacuum, preassure and temperature. It needs a lot of space to achieve a good building volume and could probably be compareable to fdm speed but better material specs and scaleability at the cost of reduced geometry. Just compare that to SLS where you need absurd controll to even get an even layer thickness...

Oh my creative brain is racing with this tech!

Really cool application of SLS technology with the carbon fiber sheets in-between for super strong parts. Looks promising

This is pretty cool but seems rather complex and expensive, we will see how this process developes further.

@tehKap0w

Жыл бұрын

More complex is only a problem when you can get the same performance out of other manufacturing processes. I'm curious about parts with internal cavities, how does that get sandblasted, or is that not a good use case for this?

@mysterymayhem7020

Жыл бұрын

that may be but you could also scale up to make pieces faster than just a printer which has to do the entire process itself. imagine having a 100 of these inkjet style printers, you could bang out objects in minutes, not hours for each

@tehKap0w

Жыл бұрын

i just now noticed in the video... "solid parts"

@sierraecho884

Жыл бұрын

@@mysterymayhem7020 Exactly. I kind of wantto try this low tech with a normal printer and some special metallic ink or something. Stack them up and sinter the part in an oven.

@rustyshackleford3053

Жыл бұрын

"Complex and expensive"? Bro it's an inkjet, an oven and a hydraulic press.This should have a DIY version in 3 to 4 years.

The best thing I've seen in years. This is great.

Definitely a niche technology but composites have so many use cases and more ways to integrate fibers in parts are better, I think. This is a way to do this I didn't think of so far. Cool new approach.

@jrshaul

Жыл бұрын

I wouldn't say that. The molten solder example is extremely impressive - for a one-off that can survive extreme heat and caustic chemicals, there's nothing like it.

The compressure makes the material heat up.. I'm wondering how do you calculate compression forces and deformations ?

How accurate can registration marks be in stacked fabric sheets for alignment with a material moving likes it's felt.

the thing is how to sandblast inside long tubes, or places where you want to pump air, or liquid, how do you get rid of the mesh in that case ??

I love spaceflight and I'm very interested in it. this way of manufacturing seems to be rather simple and robust, lightweight and actually not dependend on gravity. and if your only other source for spare parts is back on earth, 3D-printing makes a lot of sense, and producing the parts light and durable will be important too.

@jaydenwiener4899

Жыл бұрын

FDM/FFM printing is also not dependent on gravity though. Plus this would likely introduce tiny particles into the spacecraft which is a big red flag.

@robertheinrich2994

Жыл бұрын

@@jaydenwiener4899 you are right, the video mentioned 15mm carbon fibers. that could produce interesting shorts on PCBs on a planet however (like mars), that shouldn't be a problem (because of gravity).

@sportyeight7769

Жыл бұрын

I'm not really sur about sandblasting carbon fibers in space environement tho. Between the sand and the cabon flying everywhere (air filters and your lungs)

@jaydenwiener4899

Жыл бұрын

@@robertheinrich2994 I had originally thought about mentioning how it would have a place on space colonies, yet I find it difficult since the area would likely have limited breathable air If these fibers/sand got into the air, then they could very well be a massive hazard for any sensitive equipment or human lungs. If the system was moved outside or in a specialized unit to entirely prevent the possibility of contamination, it then suddenly requires a whole unit to be built, and a number of precautions any time a single part is printed. In theory, it has a place in space. I believe it would just be better to utilize other technologies until we have a larger base to properly manufacture things on, but by that point we may have vastly superior options.

@robertheinrich2994

Жыл бұрын

@@jaydenwiener4899 yes, this technology is quite special and yes, I can see that the carbon fibers might cause a problem. but I actually thought about a situation where the settlement on another planet wouldn't be that restricted. the most problematic part might be, that they sandblast the remaining fibers away. but it must be contained in some way or that hall where they showed the system would be hazardous. besides, printers that operate with metal powders (lasersintering etc) have the problem, that the metal powders aren't that lungfriendly aswell. so there might be a question, when can you run the setup outside. or does it need all the shielding from outside? for example, the first spaceX starships are considered expendable and will not go back to earth. so maybe cut the tank open and set the printer up inside?

really great! opens up new possibilities for most fields

'Saw them at Rapid last week. This is the real deal -- no prototypes or inaccurate FDM tchotchkes. The carbon fiber they produce is strong and ship able that day. Now I hope they are making bigger machines to produce bigger product. If you have heavy metal parts and are looking at a way to replace them -- this is the way to get started.

Fantastic, great vid and connection!

This is suprisingly simple. Ingenious. Inkjets can easily pump out those sheets in fractions of seconds, quick vacuum, stack it up, press it, sandblast it and there you go. This seems pretty much like using standard processes for pumping out highly customized and high tech prototypes or even productive parts.

Interesting for some things but its tricky to sand blast the inside of hollow parts.

This is super cool. Thanks for this!

How do you sandblast inside long veins or holes ?

For someone that works in the nonwoven industry space and loves additive manufacturing, this synergy of the two excites me greatly!

Have you considered adding a laser cutter to the work flow, to cut out internal shapes on each sheet, before forming the part? Then internal features wouldn't need to be sand blasted.

@milanstevic8424

Жыл бұрын

That goes against the compression process. I bet that's extra important.

@ShakesB13r

Жыл бұрын

Maybe would be usefull before the printing, cutting out the outline to reduce the waste?

I wonder if it'd be possible to press the layers in a warped state? Like with that drone blade - if you could make some kind of mandrel or two part die set that would create the blade twist/shape while the matrix phase was fused? The idea would be that the fibers would be molded along the blade instead of being sliced in the "STL" layers.

@davidhunt5885

Жыл бұрын

Can't imagine why not, good idea, they already have alignment pins so just making the top and bottom in the shapes you needed should be feasible. Definitely opens up some options to orient the fibers as you want and making them nonlinear instead of parallel to the stack.

@thePavuk

Жыл бұрын

I believe they show something like that on previous shows.

@peepopalaber

Жыл бұрын

Why not just fucking form it with carbon sheets. Its faster and easier when you have your negative.

@toastrecon

Жыл бұрын

@@peepopalaber Maybe if you had something like that and it was part of a larger component that wasn't flat? This would be faster than laying up CF, bagging it, etc, I think. Maybe not.

@TheRealAirdoo

Жыл бұрын

This is possible with the tech and there are potential use cases for this in select industries beyond the obvious.

I look forward to the future of this tech

I'm so glad you guys threw it on the table. Love to hear that "ting" of peek. That's the sound of a strong part.

I could definitely see this being used for larger objects such as car body panels

@blacklabel6223

Жыл бұрын

I guarantee it would be over 100k per door panel. This is ungodly expensive. Just the carbon fiber sheet price would be shocking. Build up a 48” x 48” x 10” block to make a rounded door panel and it’ll be wild. Cool tech but it was designed by a manufacturing businessman it seems

So the sheets need to be heated and compressed at the same time? What temp and what pressure do they need? Any parts that start to get big will need a pretty hefty machine to do that sort of processing....

More info needed on the heat/compress part - what pressure. temperature?

the presenter is a good one. he really sells you on the product and knows what to talk about

@LeonBelmont1000

Жыл бұрын

So a snake oil salesman in other words.

@YEE941

Жыл бұрын

@@LeonBelmont1000 how is he a "snake oil" salesman if he selling something legitimate?

@LeonBelmont1000

Жыл бұрын

@@YEE941 These types of presentations do a poor job at dispelling the skepticism because they are aimed at only showing the results in a positive light. It's been done for "innovative" car engines that claim higher potential efficiency, GPU's submerged in mineral oil to reduce heat generation. These innovations have yet to make any substantial difference for the consumers, they are marginal at best.

Excellent very very smart looking into it from military applications👍

Nice, Q: How do you dispose of the carbon fiber dust after sand blasting responsibly? Do you recommend adding some polymer binding powder and melt it as a block or other?

@uiopuiop3472

Жыл бұрын

using the suprerior recicling industy of hungary. it can be

Super cool love the passion

i wonder if it could be possible to make a high throughput production line because its inkjet and you could make it so the press and heater are in a rotating conveyor and since its always a block at some height its all the same thing but completely different parts the most difficult thing would be the sandblasts, but it possibly could evolve to a chemical submersion

Oh cool, makes sense that this can be used for PCB reflow/wave-solder carriers!

Interesting, reminds me of PCB stackups. With machines involved in PCB maunfacturing you might be able to align the sheets in the stackup accurately enough for god parts toelrance. Still, PCBs have a hell of a tolerance in z-direction, due to different copper and fiber filling degrees. We might see the same here.

@user-lj4xq4hm3k

Жыл бұрын

I imagine you could press not to a pressure but to a specific height for the number of layers in your design. That would at least hold the overall Z level pretty accurately. May have some variance between layers though?

I wonder about layer height/z-axis resolution. How much control does the compressing process have? Putting the thing in a press has me concerned about distortion or cave-ins

Since you can't sandblast the inside of an object much, you're pretty limited by this technique to creating open-faced parts, rather than parts with a large cavity and a small opening.

@jonasmister

Жыл бұрын

Well i dont think that carbon fiber that is left on inside of the part would pose some threat to integrity of printed part. And if yes, you can still fill the inside.

@rahul38474

9 ай бұрын

It would be interesting if they intregrated a laser cutter and air blast to remove internal cavities and pretty much anything that isn’t needed (maybe just keep some locating features or something) so that the amount of sandblasting needed is reduced and you can have internal features. That fabric looked pretty thin, enough that a laser could cut a few layers.

Woah, this is amazing!!!

What a logo! Props to whoever designed that logo!

what about the tolerances? can you provide numbers. and the price for manufacturing ?

Nice video ,thank you for sharing :)

We're in the opposite wave we were 50 years ago. New materials are developing faster than we can utilize them.

I wonder if this could be done with metal powders in an inert environment to create carbon fiber metallic parts.

Amazing.

No bullshit, all product! This guy is the real deal.

In terms of material waste, Feels like its going back to machining a block of stock, except its sliced thin then "glue" back together. Can this still be classified as additive? Or both?

This is AWESOME! Love it.

absolutely fantastic! thank you algorithm ;)

Interesting tech and a great showcase

The real question is hw long does it take to finish the part in the heated press process? Hours? Days? Minutes?

Would this work making molds, or are their better methods? Or are molds obsolete? I'm not up on the current manufacturing tech.

Wow, what a cool process! It’s one of those things that when you see it, your immediate reaction is “well, of course!”. It’d take some non-trivial development, but this has the look about it of something that could be done in a home shop. If you could come up with a liquid-jetting head, you could attach it to a conventional FDM printer frame. For assembly and baking, hydraulic shop presses are cheap, and ceramic heaters inside metal platens wouldn’t be too challenging. Sand blasters are cheap too. I’d expect that the non-woven CF sheets and powdered plastics are off the shelf items. Really, it seems like the main issue would be to figure out the jetting head and the details of the binder used to hold the loose powder. Definitely non-trivial, but it strikes me as do-able. You of course couldn’t use it commercially due to protected IP, but you could make some hellaciously strong/light/stiff parts for hobby drones or robots. (Or suspension parts for cars, etc, etc.) Very cool, I’d like to learn more about the company!

@victorkreig6089

Жыл бұрын

The best ideas are the ones that have been slapping us in the face for years without us realizing it

@rustyshackleford3053

Жыл бұрын

@@victorkreig6089 The best ideas are patented* We only got 3d printing in 2009 because the Stratasys patents from the 80s expired. In fact, most development in 3D printing is waiting for Stratasys patents to expire. The vaunted Bambu X1 Carbon is basically a Stratasys 660.

@rustyshackleford3053

Жыл бұрын

And yeah nah, not a 3d printer frame, but a lightly modified inkjet printer. The toolchain for this would basically be printing the sheets, heating it in an oven, and then shoving that in a harbor freight manual press. Then lightly beadblast it in the garage and you're done. I'd use it for so many fucking things.

@DEtchells

Жыл бұрын

@@rustyshackleford3053 Yeah, modding an inkjet printer would be the most obvious solution, but I wonder if the binder material would be think enough to flow through typical microscopic inkjet print head channels. I think there are inkjets designed for thicker fluids, but don’t know about their price or availability. (Or course, we have no idea what the binder material is, that’s the key to the whole process, and I suspect is highly proprietary :-/)

Pretty cool. Thanks!

How do you keep the sheets precisely aligned?

@dronefootage2778

Жыл бұрын

let's not worry about that right now

Got to tour their Chicago facility in like 2017, 2018-ish. It's good tech for some applications, but the surface finish leaves a lot to be desired, it's got a very poor buy-to-fly ratio and the waste chaff is not trivial to deal with, and I'm still not sure how scalable it all really is.

How do you split apart a detail and a bunch of these sheets? How do you suppose to recycle leftovers of these sheets?

@rustyshackleford3053

Жыл бұрын

How do you split apart the detail for the sheets??? Bro what even is a slicer program????????? Slicing for regular 3D printers is about a hundred times harder.

WOW. Just. WOW.

Do you do graphene (as opposed to graphite) impregnated polymers ?

This is like SLA but for fdm. Amazing!

Oh yeah, this will save us from self-annihilation, great job!

what do you do with the used sheets? since you are jetting away the material off the sheet it seems like its still subtractive manufacturing with extra steps? Seems cool and i don't know enough about carbon fiber to know if this process is more optimal than whatever we are doing currently but calling this additive manufacturing seems to be a misnomer.

When I’m testing a new method of additive manufacturing based on binder jetting/ any pool of material - I ask how it handles hollow object. Other wise machining is the more reliable and affordable. Also, it looks very complicated and expensive method to overcome problems that a simple heat treatment can solve.

@wsshambaugh

Жыл бұрын

If the hollow areas are for weight savings rather than functional, they you could just not add polymer to that area and leave the carbon fabric in there. Not as completely weight saving as air, but simpler and you still get benefit.

@wsshambaugh

Жыл бұрын

As opposed to eg powder metal sintering, where the powder weighs as much as the finished metal so leaving powder inside makes so sense.

@arielklyutch9655

Жыл бұрын

@@wsshambaugh it is a good solution. But still, my point is that it pretends to be a manufacturing alternative when it doesn’t have further engineering limits or cost per part advantage compared to other AM solutions/machining.

How do you press complex shapes? I guess vacuum bag otherwise you need a die in the shape of the part to do it. But must put a limit to how complex shape you can make?

@rustyshackleford3053

Жыл бұрын

Why? I see zero reason you can't just vertically press any shape whatsoever the same way you can print any shape ever on an FDM printer.

What about spherical or thin parts, how do you compress it without deforming it?

@rustyshackleford3053

Жыл бұрын

Same way you print them without deforming it. You get your calibration correct.

Excellent

Ultra Quality tools!

this is the OG 3d print too we came full circle

Great idea that would fill many niche applications. Curious to know if the material that is sand blasted away can be recovered/re-used. Also, like other FDM processes, you have the opportunity to embed threaded inserts or bearings as you stack layers, but because it is pressed and heated, the parts would become an exact fit.

@amorton94

Жыл бұрын

You'd have to somehow reform that chopped material that was blasted away into a mat, so I doubt it.

@desparky

Жыл бұрын

@@amorton94 Yes, that's what I was thinking (reforming into mat). I wonder if it's viable, or if the fibres are destroyed in the blasting process.

@rustyshackleford3053

Жыл бұрын

@@amorton94 There's nothing fundamentally different than doing it with cotton fibers from chopped up jeans in 3rd grade to make your own paper. Moot point regardless, if the sheets aren't cheap enough to not bother doing this it won't be financially feasible to use them at all.

@scottwillis5434

Жыл бұрын

If it's carbon being sandblasted away, not sure how important recovery is.

So the carbon fibres are only aligned along the plane of the printer sheets, which means that perpendicular to these sheets only the resin is holding it together.

What if you have a part that needs to be hollow? Imagine a hollow cube with a ball inside. How do you sandblast away the material from the inside?

Awesome! Cool!

"Indiana Jones digging out your dinosaur" that stings😭

Anybody think this may have wider dimensional tolerances? I wonder if sandblasting creates a more variable final dimension.

very different and very cool.....

Pretty cool. Self assembling nanotech would make that entire convention a flash in the pan.

@Horendus123

Жыл бұрын

Self assembling nanotech would be pretty cool but star trek replicators would make the entire technology a flash in the pan

@rustyshackleford3053

Жыл бұрын

Self assembling nanotech is fiction.

This isn't a new process. It's an evolution of an older idea.

this is cool!

does the "non woven" carbon reinforcing enhance cross layer bonding versus layer binding exhibited with woven fibre materials - if there were a technique for tufting the fibres in the layers - it would be interesting - ie resulting in a 3d reinforced matrix. The selective deposition process seems more suitable for running through a printing press (basically using photocopier / laser printer tech. than an XYZ gantry.

@DerSolinski

Жыл бұрын

I imagen it does, however I also have doubts about the "no layer" claims. Tufting seems like an interesting idea, even if it would be absolutely brutal on the needles and equipment. My primary idea was to agitate the thing with ultrasonic while annealing. I don't know if direct powder application without the wetting agent would work. But I agree that should be a magnitude faster.

@rustyshackleford3053

Жыл бұрын

Smashing it to 5% of the original height of the stack probably agitates the fibers plenty.

@DerSolinski

Жыл бұрын

@@rustyshackleford3053 Yes and no, the question is do the fibers interlock. Just smooching them together under pressure doesn't guarantee that. Especially because they are fixed together with the binder and wetting agent. To weave them together there is a surprising amount of energy necessary. Probably it would need multiple agitation, rest and compression steps to form a coherent true "layer less" bond. Tufting would guarantee that but I imagen the dimensional accuracy would fly out the window along with it.

@sawyerlachance7745

Жыл бұрын

How would they not be continuous. If the part is cf(a)-plastic(b)-cf(c)-plastic(d)…….. when you compress apoximatly half of the cf will end up going into each (above and bellow) of the plastic layers. Cf is significant less compress able obviously. This also means it should be isotopic in nature and therefore “layer less” since then it would be from above (ab)-(bc)-(cd) where the cf fibers are mixed between each layer.

@kadmow

Жыл бұрын

@@sawyerlachance7745 - as one above commenter said - just because you would think so. doesn't make it so - and there will be no reinforcing fibres transiting through any complete layers (only post process tufting/sewing, does that - meaning as with all conventional laminated (thermoset - rather than thermoplastic) reinforced products, properties provided by the reinforcing will not be isotropic (maybe approaching, but no real cigar - just Virginia)...

I believe Canon or HP came with similar process but with paper instead of carbon sheets. Thise parts must be crazy strong compared to clasic fusion printers. But I bet that it's expensive as powder printing.

@JaapGrootveld

Жыл бұрын

130MPa is not so strong. 🤔 Alu, is 150MPa. And real carbonfiber is 4000 MPa

@kadmow

Жыл бұрын

@@JaapGrootveld (- yes the weakest link is the bonding of the matrix to the fibres, epoxy is only ~ not very strong huge range for "epoxy to epoxy from 5-7MPa up to ~100MPa - in the context of metals.. Just because a fibre may be in the GPa range for UTS, doesn't mean you can build parts that strong..) Calling stuff "real carbonfibre" is being ridiculously elitist. Here is a mould free method of making complex solid carbon-thermoplastic components. "Real" carbon composites cannot do the same easily. Here the competition is the boys doing filled PETg and FDM nylon and calling their parts "fibre reinforced... These methods could be improved - using jetted thermoactivated crosslimking polymers with inter layer reinforcing for extreme solidity and stiffness - go one further and spray on binder stabilised carbon ceramics, post autoclaving.. 130MPa is stronger than laminated paper, we have come a little on democratising complex manufacturing in the last 50 years.

@DerSolinski

Жыл бұрын

The paper printer you mean is made for high fidelity full color model printing. Basically just for the looks 😀 E.g. this is important for validation in the design industry. But yes stacking based processes are around for a while now.

@rustyshackleford3053

Жыл бұрын

@@JaapGrootveld So we're within 20MPa of Aluminum? Hot fucking DAMN.

@sawyerlachance7745

Жыл бұрын

20MPA isotropic and half the weight.

So your end-product layer resolution is limited by the thickness of the carbon fiber fabric?

@sawyerlachance7745

Жыл бұрын

Yea and the print accuracy of the ink jet head determines the xy. I think that might be where people are missing here. The dimensional accuracy that these parts have is probably top notch since there is nothing Moving around at any point and they print probably 1200 ppi or more and that puts it in a similar resolution range as resin printers.

Do pressing won't change the dimensions? I mean if we need accuracy

@giuseppebonatici7169

Жыл бұрын

only if the sheet is oversaturated with plastic, if it isn't, then will only change given the elastic modulus and Poisson ratio of the carbon fiber, which should be a lot smaller than thermal expansion, so it becomes irrelevant.

@TheRealAirdoo

Жыл бұрын

Pressing doesn't change dimensions, the dimensions of the final build are known and the press could be stopped at that height. Providing they have a way to do that reliabily 🙃

@rustyshackleford3053

Жыл бұрын

@@TheRealAirdoo If we can figure out how to shit melted plastic out of a sewing needle and get accuracy under .01mm we can figure out how hard to press some sheets, dude.

So full density parts with 2D carbon fiber reinforcement? Nice! when can I order parts from a 3D printing house like Shapeways?

can use aluminium or stainless steel poder instead of peek or nylon?

That is really cool.

Z-dimension error margin - how do you control that?

Cool. But since you compressed it, doesnt it affect the dimensions? What is the accuracy?

@FilipAus

Жыл бұрын

That should be easy to calculate as they would know the amount of shrinkage at certain pressures.

@rustyshackleford3053

Жыл бұрын

Of course it affects the dimensions. You calibrate for POST-stamping dimensions, not pre.

@andersoncunha7079

Жыл бұрын

"High Dimensional Accuracy to 100 microns" "No shrinkage or warpage" what their website says... you can google the name and check, there's some more info there.

Is this superior to a more traditional carbon fiber resin? I would imagine you could print on these sheets with a normal resin instead and do pretty much the same thing.

this is beautifully simple. and i love the fact its using proven tech like inkjet printers.

I can envision large-format printers capable of producing 3x5m or even larger components, potentially creating hundreds of thousands of parts in a single run. However, heating such large, deep sections could pose a challenge, possibly requiring layer-by-layer heating as the material is laid down. This could involve applying a powder-coated sheet, followed by a heated roller, and then repeating the process for each layer. This method might be more efficient than using a heated plate, and a metal drum filled with superheated steam could provide the necessary heat. Upon completion, the product could be transported via conveyor belt to a nylon sandblasting drum for finishing before being packaged in boxes, creating a fully automated process. Additionally, I didn't see the demonstration using different powders on the same sheet . If inkjet technology is used to deposit "glue," it should be possible to apply different types and colors of powders, enabling multi-color and multi-material printing. By layering the "glue" and spraying different colored powders, a wide range of possibilities could be explored, particularly with carbon fiber materials.

@uiopuiop3472

Жыл бұрын

yest, its compressd. using hudraulic piszton.

@FairladyS130

11 ай бұрын

All done at room temperature.

@uiopuiop3472

11 ай бұрын

@@FairladyS130 TH BEST!!

Very cool tech, and not farfetched to imagine this scaling up in speed of printing enormously by applying existing technology from large scale high volume printing operations. I could also see combining this with laser cutting, water jetting, or even a cnc sand blasting nozzle to cut sheets completely or partially before adhesion to make voids and channels feasible.

This is amazing for rapid prototyping where costs don't matter. Or for refined complex one offs. Anywhere else it's way to expensive. The CF alone rips you a new one. GF might be slightly more affordable. And that's just raw materials. Also I have doubts about the "no layer" claim, in theory they would need to somehow agitate the whole thing for that while annealing. Dunno maybe ultrasonic 🤷‍♂

@FPVtrix

Жыл бұрын

Ultrasonic welding of the parts would be so cool

@phasesecuritytechnology6573

Жыл бұрын

He said they put it in a mold so no layers would show then

Brilliant. The waste debris/residues, could you recycling it?