One of the best channels out there.Keep going, keep doing things.

@TomoReso

3 жыл бұрын

I agree, he is keeping it very simple and very informative. Indeed one of the best channels I came across.

It's a long and painful process dialing the spark map. The WOT columns are pretty easy as you do what is in the video unless you have a base curve already which speeds up the process. The lower load areas are what the pain is as you need to lock the rpm in constant rpm mode on the dyno and vary the throttle to move between cells of that rpm and dial each one as you note the torque figure until you find MBT for each cell. Some areas are hard to hit like super low loads at high rpm or vise versa and you need to take breaks often as the headers can get glowing hot when holding certain loads for a long time with the limited airflow that a dyno fan provides compared to the open road. A lot of tuners are lazy and only do the WOT column and leave/guess the rest of the map, resulting in a car that has poor drivability.

@whcwcjecjecuecuw6654

Ай бұрын

How would you street tune the lower areas

@marlo0oty213

Ай бұрын

@@whcwcjecjecuecuw6654guess it and look at multiple good tuned maps and advance until you hit that spot and theres knock.. im not an expert on these but this is how i did it

@3800S1

Ай бұрын

@@whcwcjecjecuecuw6654 For spark you can't really do any of it on the street, you need a dyno. However, fuel you can do the lot on the street as is usually better than the dyno as you get real world air temps, pressures and flow that comes with driving on the road, subtle but different enough to a dyno. You simply log wideband against VE and just drive in all the conditions until you log enough data for the entire map.

Thanks for the video, in the process of tuning my corolla now, not quite sure where my CR is though but confident I can dial a bit more timing in on the street. Still quite down around the 15-18* mark while I get my base fueling sorted. Your channel has been an absolute legend for me these past 6 months getting everything setup and sorted

By far my favourite channel for dyno tuning and engine building. Have learnt heaps, keep up the good work mate!

I love everything you do!! 👍

Thank you very much for the video, I was one of those who suggested this, in the future I would like to see the effect of afr on the exhaust gas temperature, continue like this:)

@xestore

3 жыл бұрын

I'd like to see that too :)

Fantastic. Absolutely clean and easy to understand

Awesome channel mate. Keep going and never give up! 5 minutes of pure knowledge without any blahblahblah thats it! Im lookin forward to turbo 4age ignition vid ;D

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

no one got time for a 30min vlog 😂

@Malpiszo

3 жыл бұрын

@@Garage4age Even if you made a 30min vid, everyone would watch it. Trust me: D

I have been enjoying your efforts very much. Straight forward and not a lot of noise and attitude. I learn a lot here. It helps me get a better understanding on the effects of the basic adjustments in a tune. Please keep up the good work.

Excellent video. This is what separates the builds that last for years from the builds that last 4 days. You do a great job with demonstrating solid data and no nonsense.

Again this video is super!!!!! 110% practical videos, congrats.

What an amazing video! That was extremely informative to hp and timing! Thank you!

Excellent work. Very interesting how you have done your map. Thank you.

Awesome video. Love to see real world results of tests on a dyno. Cheers mate

Extremely useful tests! Thanks a lot! And greetings from Ukraine!

wow that really took alot, wouldnt mind seeing this done on the turbo engine as well

Great Channel. I love what you do. Greetings from Germany.

Cracking vid, I knew timing was important but I didn’t realise how much of an affect it can have

The video I thought you should have done, and you didn't disappoint.

Really Nice video, very instrutive. Keep it up the good job!

The best channel !!! Very interesting, thanks man!

I want to heare it knock! Thanks for releasing your Ignition curve.

hat down guys, thanks for the share. u are just perfect!! big thumbs up . very simple and very informative

Always wanted to see what timing changes does, very cool

The best "Less talk, post results" channel out in KZread.

interesting test! really cool to see how it affects power made

Коротко и ясно. Спасибо большое за ваш труд.

Damn..... that was good info! Thank you for sharing!

Wow, thanks a lot mate! Great stuff!

I Love this channel!!!!! thanks

I just find your channel. Veery interesting content. Subscribed!

This is beautiful. Adjusting spark timing is quite complex as these adjustments are not made in 500 rpm gaps but much smaller windows in more complex builds. And, this exercise shown here was performed only at 100% load, you can still set optimal timings for lower loads. Imagine doing this for every 100 rpm, all they way up to redline and also for 10% loads, 15%, 20, 25, 30, 35... Modern day ecu tunes are normally far more precise than that. They not only seek the optimal output but they also analyze the exhaust emission characteristics and efficiency, bsfc etc Modern cars have alot of timing being pulled off from their maps because in specific areas and regions their engines sometimes peak in either nox, sox or hc... in order to cut that out timming and fuel events can be pulled.

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah this video just scrapes the surface. Factory would spend thousands of hours on tunes for various reasons. Its slightly annoying, when people expect an aftermarket ecu to be tuned in a couple of hours and drive better than factory 😂 .

@Lucas-ck1po

3 жыл бұрын

I had a teacher back at mechanical engineering school who spent 21 years working for GM, he worked in several cars such as the Cruze, Kadett, Monza, Omega and so on. He mentioned powertrain dept spending several months setting ecu maps on the 1.8 N/A Cruze just to adapt it to our market. They weren't developing the car itself, that was just to adapt it to the fuels (flex fuel market) and different weather. And regarding your customers, it must be a pain in the ass sometimes lol

@hojnikb

3 жыл бұрын

@@Garage4age i mean, A LOT of the tuning comes down to emissions, not just drivability.

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

@@hojnikb yeah, tuning for emissions while retaining drivability, doesn't sound like much fun. aftermarket stuff on a simple setup, isn't that hard to get a tune knocked out fast that drives good. but the little things, fine tuning and cold starts and the likes take time

very interesting, thanks ! I always thought that aprox 25° advance was sort of max at +6000rpm, apparently not

@roman3s

3 жыл бұрын

Generally you want peak cylinder pressure to happen at around 15 degrees after top dead center, regardless of rpm. Because the gas expands "slowly" you have to start the ignition some time before this. If the gas expanded instantly, you'd have timing fixed somewhere around 15 ATDC at all rpm and load. But if the expansion rate is "slow" because its real life then: If at 3000rpm you had 10 degrees ignition timing, the total to 15 ATDC is 25 degrees (and however many milliseconds that is) So at 6000rpm the motor is spinning twice as fast, so to ignite the same amount of time before 15 ATDC you'd need 25 * 2 = 50 degrees (same amount of milliseconds) Then subract the 15 again and you have 35 deg ign timing before top dead center. Which sanity checks reasonably well. There are other factors involved which make this rule not exactly true, but its a good way to visualize why you need more timing as rpm goes up. If not for distributors needing a mechanical reference point that's convenient, and that BTDC numbers have become convention. You'd probably have a more meaningfully shaped ignition map by having "zero" timing at the point you're hoping to have peak combustion pressure happen. (ie, add 15 degrees to all the numbers) Some OEM ECUs have this with a "flame speed" based ignition table instead of degrees before TDC. As I think this makes it easier to incorporate multiple ignition trims in a meaningful way, like air fuel ratio changing and IAT changing.

@andrebrito3705

3 жыл бұрын

@@roman3s There are way more variables to add...its not that linear sir...map,compression,iat,chambers design, and this is what i remenber, ppbably few things more for sure.

beautiful demonstration with oil temp

Love the content

Loved it man! Power might not increase with more timing to a point. But finding MBT ( mean best timing) is best for torque

THANK YOU SIR!! it forced me to do rerun of my subaru ez30

Outstanding!!

Really makes me want my own dyno so I can finally get my car dialed in.

@descent8275

3 жыл бұрын

same. just started with tuning my s13 ca18det this year. downloaded a ignition map from somewhere in the net. you can even feel how wack it is.

@patrickfargie1146

3 жыл бұрын

Virtual Dyno & Megasquirt

Great video

You can see by the lambda too(with corrections off) if its leaning its gainning hp

Some advanced stuff happening here

Brilliant mate

Love ya work Bois from chch xox

Thank you! It was interesting to regret that there was no knock sensor

Wow 😮 love that also have a ? What ECU it's good for the 4efe of 5e in my case?

this video is extremely underrated

big thanks!!!!!!

So good

Awwww the wonderful world of N/A timing advance haha. I'm just over here trying to run 15* on my 4G63

Thanks man. suspicions confirmed.

keep up bri i am realy learning from you

Pretty much supports what many of us have been saying. Advance till the motor stops adding power then back it off 2 degrees.

What compression ratio? And what is the octane number of the fuel?

thanks a lot for this kind of vids! absolutely awesome stuff!!! watching this vid i remembered the Oem 4age ecu timing has to be set to an initial timing of 16 degrees (out of diagnosis mode at idle) but as soon as you are WOT the timing continues advancing to a point. Whats the final timing for the oem 4age ecu? For those who dont have knock sensor, how do we know by torque figures on the dyno when its time to go back few degrees before knocking starts doing bad things? thx!

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

Theres some ignition maps floating around the net, that are meant to be from stock ecu, im unsure how they collected the data though. I always use knock detection when setting timing on dyno. most na 4ages will get to best timing before running into knock. unless on low octane pump gas

Plz do ignition timing on your turbo 4age. This is pretty insightful. Thanks.

@Garage4age

Жыл бұрын

numbers will be a decent amount lower. but thats not so much it being turbo. even high power na will need less timing. but can also vary vastly between engines depending how they have been modified.

Is 12.5 to 15 degree fluctuation normal spark adv at idle for Toyota corolla 1.8l engine?

these videos are so educational, I love it!

Hello! I'd like to make more powah out of a stock 1.1i engine which makes 60 hp. It's from a Citroën Saxo. Can I just safely set ignition timing 15° earlier to make more power without destroying it? How much power would it make?

ive been fluffing around doing road tunes for my 4age with haltech elite. going to try some of these values, looks promising

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

If your engine makes more power than this one, will need less advance. also remember my note at start of vid re base timing being slightly off on this test

@ItsOnlySmellz787

3 жыл бұрын

@@Garage4age copy that. Its a standard bigport with cop conversion. Less advance as in closer to btdc?

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

@@ItsOnlySmellz787 yeah. take away 1-2 from all my numbers

I remember in my 4a-ge the afr was always running rich and never found out why

What was the trap ? is it hot oil temp giving more tq ? also why in the end you lower the Ign Adv frol 37+ to 33 even tho the 37 gave extra numbers... ? thanks for the video by the way, very demonstrative

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

I was showing if don't run the engine under same conditions, it may look like there are power gains but aren't. in this case oil temp. you can see how people can end up with there engines over advanced, by thinking extra timing added more power, but it was something else causing the gain I lowered the timing back down to show there is minimal change in power once its close to where it needs to be, if engine was close to knock. that 5 degrees less timing is a big safety buffer for only a kw or 2.

nice

Well done video! I can't explain why the timing advance is higher with hot engine oil, can you clarify please?

@Garage4age

5 ай бұрын

That was showing if you run the engine up with hotter engine oil. Engine Will make more power. It's a common mistake to do run after run advancing the timing and the power gain is from the hotter oil rather than the timing increase. Always a good idea to confirm the gain by doing another run with the timing increase removed

The hot run was interesting. Try some Hybrid engine oil for me. :)

Amazing. Could you use lambda over the afr in next videos? Its better to see how are your mixture!

Does this mean advanced timing give better top end? I thought it was the other way around

Great video! Do you have something similar with the turbo 4age? I would love to see the timing vs power effect on the high hp 4age turbo motor.

@Garage4age

2 жыл бұрын

hey, haven't done a video of it. Basically the same thing happens. but the required timing to make max power is less. not really due to be being turbo. more of a cylinder pressure thing. my high power na engines dont need as much advance as this one

Wow!

Did it have a knock sensor and what fuel octane? In the UK you have 95ron and 98ron, don't know about Australia or New Zealand where you are..

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

was on 98 ron. was listening for knock with detset. but wasn't expecting any, even at the high timing numbers. as engine is same comp and uses same fuel as turbo engine.

Interesting, that the engine accepts 30deg at low end without knocking. For a 4V engine I expected 15 to 28deg on full load. What fuel is it and CR 10:1?

@Garage4age

2 жыл бұрын

10.3:1 98ron. after i filmed this turns out the base timing was slightly off. (2 degrees retarded) so take off 2deg from all the numbers you see.

Thật tuyệt vời

What Fuel are you using.

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

gull 98

Viewer request What is the max power one can get retaining the tvis intake?

@Garage4age

2 жыл бұрын

Not quite what you asked. but this video will give you an idea of the difference between a well setup intake for bigger cams and the stock item kzread.info/dash/bejne/lWifx618dcSZZdo.html Its smallport stuff but the tvis manifold makes similar power to the smallport one. tvis manifold makes a little more down low and a little less up top

@OEMplusRESTO

2 жыл бұрын

@@Garage4age thank you. Very interesting. Im curious at what power level the itb’s make more sense for a weekend warrior non tracked car

@Garage4age

2 жыл бұрын

@@OEMplusRESTO Itb's will run a lot nicer at idle and low rpm than a single, when using bigger cams. they dont necessarily make more power. but its easier to get the runner lengths and the likes right.

@OEMplusRESTO

2 жыл бұрын

@@Garage4age thank you.

Do you have the standard knock sensor still hooked up? Do you see any detonation during the higher hp tests? Great vid

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

standard sensor long gone. well i don't think this block would have had one stock. I use a detset to listen for knock. no det, its only 10:3:1 on 98.

@iliasmetalworks

3 жыл бұрын

@@Garage4age 10.3:1?, Isn't 13:1? I thought that it was 13:1

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

@@iliasmetalworks different engine, hence lack of power. see last weeks vid

Thanks you so much bro, I learn a lot, could you do on the fuelling side too please....how much fuel added on every rev range, also do you make that extractor in your starlet and are they for sale...cheers bro

@Franco_FC

3 жыл бұрын

there is already a video like this on the channel, about the afr, I think that the ideal is that it runs thin at low rpm to save fuel and that it runs thick at high rpm for greater power

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

As above check out my other video "afr vs power" . I built the extractors yes. not for sale sorry. although i may make a few sets to sell in the future if get time. as a lot of people ask about them

@suronsoon8913

3 жыл бұрын

Yes bro let me know how much, I want two...May you do dial up cam timing using kelford spec sheet or any...thanks...and doing true top dead centre stuff, no one doing it that it can be understood....cheers bro...merry Xmas....

What fuel and compression is it running .. wouldn't have thought it would like that much timing at top end

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

98 ron. roughly 10.3 compression.

Do you agree that the bell curve for peak power fuel ratio is way more tolerant than the ignition curve ? if I had a choice of electronic control of an engine, I'd choose ignition timing over fuel

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, in terms of making power. ignition timing is far more critical to get right. Long as afr is in the ballpark power numbers will be very similar. But of course afr numbers should be right for other reasons

@bobawatsit

3 жыл бұрын

@@Garage4age yes, the biggest reason for afr being well within the ' ballpark ' is high supercharger pressures & turbo supercharges are notorious in this regard. this is where running Meth / Eth alcohol will give you double the latitude .... thank you for your great effort

👍

How did you check knock margin during this test? thanks

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

I listen for knock using a detset (headphones and knock sensor /mic)

Hi Garage 4age, would you happen to know the total timing advance for a stock 20v? Many thanks!

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

they tend to like pretty similar numbers to 16v.

Hello from ae86 club Moscow, Russia! What Ecu do you use?

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

Hi ! It has a link g4

Is there any difference between changing ignition timing and changing the timing via the cam angle adjustment?

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

do you mean cam timing vs ignition timing. or changing ignition timing at the cam/ crank angle sensor?

@SaligkarAKIS

3 жыл бұрын

@@Garage4age cam timing vs ignition timing and what if you combine both

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah they work totally different. they don't effect each other much. some small ignition timing adjustments maybe needed if cam timing is adjusted and engine makes a decent gain/loss power in different places over rpm range. I have vids on cam timing if you haven't seen them already.

Awesome channel budd... Any chance a follow up on both ignition and fuel tuning? Thanks again for all that you do!

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

Possibly, what would you like to see?

@REDLINEBECKONZ

3 жыл бұрын

@@Garage4age Great! Maybe doing some drivability adjustments, accel enrichment (wall wetting), afr targets, knock retard. I just feel like you are very knowledgeable and some of us might learn a thing or two. And plus the back to back dyno runs are music to our ears lol.

Your oil temp effect is really quite significant, do you have a standard sump and fill level? What are the chances the crank is spinning through the oil? Lost 30+kW once from this..... 🤔 What fuel was this run on? Would have been good to see you push it through into knock and see the full MBT curve. Lots of engines don't reach knock threshold at all rpms as they just don't have the comp and VE.

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

yeh 3-4kw on these engines. doesn't change as power increases as you would expect, so gap looks bigger on this engine with its lack of power. stock sump and windage tray. have tried running at lower oil level no change. 98ron. was past mbt for most of the curve. no point trying to find knock.

@benheynen2705

3 жыл бұрын

@@Garage4age you know that the timing curves you have should show an x2 relationship. Pick an rpm and plot timing vs torque and you will get your MBT torque. Do this at all the other rpms and you have your best theoretical best timing and torque assuming no knock. That's then your actual target.

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

@@benheynen2705 If fame speed stayed the same across the whole rpm range this would work. since pressure, heat and the likes change flame speed. isn't usually the case.

@benheynen2705

3 жыл бұрын

@@Garage4age just saying how OE does it...... Everything changes with velocity. Take an rpm and plot it out, check the fit of an x2 curve on those points. Message me if you want, be great to have a chat.

Awesome video. What about predetonation? Do you have a knock sensor?

@Garage4age

2 жыл бұрын

I listen for knock with a detset. knock sensor and headphones

@edups3307

2 жыл бұрын

@@Garage4age Ok but messing with ignition, giving more time, does it increase the chance of knock? You're just advancing the spark

@Garage4age

2 жыл бұрын

@@edups3307 Not 100% sure what you mean., but lots of things can effect the chance of knock . but if dont tune on the edge of knock, allow at least a few degrees before knock. always run same gas as tuned on and add some safteys tha pull timing if any of the temps etc arent right. generally isnt any issue without knock detection. most aftermarket ecu's knock detection isnt that good and requires running the engine into knock to set it up.

@edups3307

2 жыл бұрын

@@Garage4age I mean how do you know it's detonating from the spark and not predetonating?

@edups3307

2 жыл бұрын

Not predetonating but after-detonating.

thanks for all what you do! can you tell what compression ratio and fuel do you use? Do you have knock sensor?

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

Around 10.3:1 compression. and 98 ron gas. so pretty easy to over advance with no knock. my turbo engine runs about the same compression. I use a detset to listen for knock (knock sensor, small audio amp and headphones)

@scattkiwiman

3 жыл бұрын

@Ben T. was going to ask for the same :-)

Would love to see part throttle timing adjustments.

@krusher74

2 жыл бұрын

with less load (part throttle) more vacuum, you can add extra timing through vacuum advance to help ignite a leaner slower-burning mix for cruise econemy. On a race car, this is pointless.

did you just interpolate from 2000-8000rpm once you found mbt?

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

pretty much. The ignition map isn't perfect on the last run. but pretty close to what it needs to be

@krusher74

2 жыл бұрын

if you just interpolate you will get a flat timing curve, Its perhaps called a curve because many engines like it to ramp up faster in the lower rpms and then less in the higher.

Why on high oli temp its better result?

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

because engines will make more power with hotter/thinner oil if everything else is the same. I was basically showing if engine isn't run at the same temps etc. that the power gains from more timing may not actually be gains. I have a short vid on how much the oil temps effect power kzread.info/dash/bejne/en6O0M-NhM3Umbg.html

@hojnikb

3 жыл бұрын

thinner oil causes less friction and as such less parasitic drag to the engine. part of the reason why modern cars use such thing oils; less power robbed from the friction, more mpgs.

@bandini997

3 жыл бұрын

@@Garage4age yeah it Has sense thanks

Whats the compression ratio?

@Garage4age

Ай бұрын

10.3 on this engine

you really did run 37 deg advanced at wot ? I am tuning bmw straight 6 engine and get scared at 27deg...(what gasoline are you using?)98 octane*

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

the base timing was slightly off. so was 35-36 degrees not 37. but yeh only 10.3 and 98 ron. these engines usually like around 30deg. my big cam engine only needs 28-29 deg

What ignition system are you running?

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

Just old Mitsubishi wasted spark coils that have been on it for ever.

@darviin9470

3 жыл бұрын

@@Garage4age thank you

fascinating .what is the cr and cam duration ? i am guessing at 9.5:1 and 270 d inlet :)

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

10.3:1 and stock cams which are pretty tiny 230deg from memory

@RobertsChannell

3 жыл бұрын

@@Garage4age wow those heads must flow well .

@Ultrasonictwo

3 жыл бұрын

@@RobertsChannell it's not a stock head

@RobertsChannell

3 жыл бұрын

@@Ultrasonictwo ah i see that makes sense .

@exvils

3 жыл бұрын

@@RobertsChannell difference between 232 and 270 ist that big (well deppends on cam) but some are more like 250° with extra low lift (less than 0.3mm) just to help load shims

Can a n/a engine knock?

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

yes, but this one on 10:3 compression on decent gas. so no issue with knock

Can you try water injection ? (not methanol)

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

Maybe at some stage. i have ran it before in the past with water only. but dont bother anymore as another thing to go wrong.

Hello, do you want to make a video about injektion timing?

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

Was going to do this when my good engine goes back in, (maybe awhile away) probably while revisiting the outboard injection. On this engine likely wont be any difference, but might throw some numbers at it next time im running it up, see if its worth doing a vid.

@Franco_FC

3 жыл бұрын

@@Garage4age It would be very interesting, according to what I think an early injection time would improve the air-fuel mixture, I will look forward to it ...

ron of fuel? and CR?

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

98ron 10.3:1

Was detonation ever an issue?

@Garage4age

2 жыл бұрын

Not on this engine. only 10.3 compression. so relatively low for the power its making & 98ron fuel

How many octane sir

@Garage4age

3 жыл бұрын

98 ron