That design is impressive ! I saw your early attempts at fixing the wobble but never saw that solution until now, crazy smooth.

@MirageC

Жыл бұрын

Thank you very much!

@janvostarek4396

Жыл бұрын

This design Is complete nonsense

@dev-debug

Жыл бұрын

@@janvostarek4396 Nah, it would work fine for through hole boards. Not so much for high denisty SMD though. Still going to build one and play around with the aperature. I can show you some very expensive ones that accomplished far less.

It’s kind of amazing how the most minuscule vibration/etc will become apparent in a print. Though it would actually be cool if it could be taken advantage of since sometimes the effect actually looks nice without being part of the design itself.

@ChauHuh

Жыл бұрын

Some ceramic printing use this technique.

I think this is a fantastic example of a good mechanical design to solve the issue rather than a software patch to try and fix it.

@janvostarek4396

Жыл бұрын

This Is great example of how not to do it, design Is incredible dumb nonsense.

@michaelwatson7211

Жыл бұрын

I just can't believe that it's cheaper/ better than buying straight ball screws or making the frame stiffer. I don't really get this fashion of using proper linear rails and lead screws (all from aliexpress) an mounting the lot to a frame made of jelly. It dosn't seem like good engineering to me

@Sharpless2

Жыл бұрын

@@michaelwatson7211 Cheaper? Youve never seen the prices for an actual high quality ball screw + ball nut huh? A high quality ball nut itself can easily costs more than the 3d printer itself. $400 for a ball nut is very common, $750 to $800 for a quality ball nut is normal.

@sfproject-life3829

Жыл бұрын

Ball screw + linear rails?

@michaelwatson7211

Жыл бұрын

@@Sharpless2 Yeah I meant lead nuts, which aren't that expensive even for OK ones. And thats only one of my points, why buy this stuff if you are going to mount it to a frame so weak it's deformed by an 8mm rod? Lazer cut steel is pretty cheap, tapping holes isn't that hard, avoiding that then splurging on custom components, and rails with a >200kg capacity is building your house on the sand.

I really like mellow's parts, they are expensive, but people say something about getting what you pay for... Congrats on succeeding on creating an awesome product!

@MirageC

Жыл бұрын

Thank you!

@michaelwatson7211

Жыл бұрын

like straight ball screws?

@MirageC

Жыл бұрын

@@michaelwatson7211 will you sponsor them?

@michaelwatson7211

Жыл бұрын

​@@MirageC I think I don't really get the problems you are trying to solve, my background is in CNC, the idea of a ball screw deforming the frame is pretty nuts, as is the idea of using a bent screw. Why don't people use a cantilever bed on 4 bearings with a single screw (I've seen this with 2 bearings eg ultimaker but not 4)? Wouldn't it be cheper/ easier to make stiff than using 2 extra ball screws, if you don't care about weight in the frame the whole thing could be welded in thick plate it would be pretty easy to shim it flat once and be done with it. I also don't think you really get any benefit from ball screws over lead screws here, there can't be any backlash becuse the force on the bed is always down, unless there is somthing strange going on with the frame deforming or the 3 screw arangement. Like I said though I don't get the problems, the costs i was using in my head seem to be about an order of magnitude more than you are spending for screws at least, maybe the calculations just all work out different to my intuition.

@gyrogearloose1345

Жыл бұрын

Instead, how about starting with high quality ball screws and properly machined bearing ends, along with a rigid frame and precision sliders?

I know you are beating a dead horse, HOWEVER i super appreciate the systematic approach of testing and validating mods. Too many it seems are done in the name of performance, but end up causing more issues that they fixed. I'm currently trying to print as fast as possible with the best quality on ender 3. Lack of time does not allow for the cool stuff like voron.

@drallersouldust3054

7 ай бұрын

this kind of problem was already solved for over a century

Mirage my first experiments with the Rat Rig V-Core 3 started with an adaption of your very clever wobble rings. Subsequently I developed the VenterMechs (Simpler and less fiddly than Wobble rings and results were just as good - hundreds of people using them) and then I upgraded the Rat Rig I was using as my test bed to the 1P Z design to also eliminate the 'hula' movement, which other designs don't address very well. This design has proven the best yet. The design is open source for non commercial use and I don't sell any parts for it. I wrote a series of articles on the popular Z designs and the issues and fixes for them including the 1P design.

I always wondered if you would come back around to the wobble wings you first shared. You're doing some great work in advancing the small things that have big impacts in 3d printing.

amazing! I love how much the community help each other out and come up with amazing ideas then share them! Thanks for taking the time to create and put it all into a video :)

I've never once thought about this type of wobble while printing.I just thought the slight variance was due to the unavoidable motion created by moving the print head. Absolutely mind blowing to learn you can get near perfect finishes on printed parts without sanding/finishing.

@Theexplorographer

5 ай бұрын

You never thought about it because it's NON-EXISTENT!

@heavyweather

7 күн бұрын

​@@Theexplorographerif you use belts ... or a delta.

This is a gift to the printing community. Thanks!

@MirageC

Жыл бұрын

Glad you like it!

So glad I found your channel. This hobby desperately needs more evidence based examination of "known" things. I especially like that you're not afraid to show when one of your hypothesis turns out not to work (as in the extruder gear issue for example).

Wow, great video. I built a ~2000mm tall bed slinger, and wondered about my artifacts. This is really great. Thanks for making these available to purchase.

Reminds me of a documentary I've seen many years ago about how some bridges in quake-prone areas decouple their structures from the ground using large bearings in concave cavities to make it self-centering.

Thanks wobble man, instantly ordered 3 WobbleX. Been fighting with the Z wobble for 3 years on my custom printer. I will soon add a custom mount for the Sparkcube XL.

@MirageC

Жыл бұрын

Glad I could help Keep me posted on the results!

Eureka! You solved a huge "mystery" problem! The world of 3D printing owe you a great debt! (BTW; VERY cool camera zoom, out from the reflection of the chrome bearing ball; nice stylistic choice!)

You and the community are amazing for such solution!!! I'm especially happy that's also available for common bed slinger's lead screw!

A great way to add precision without making everything from cast iron and concrete. Will be checking out those 8mm ones.

Given how not-straight Ender 3 style lead screws tend to be, this is going to be a must have upgrade for anyone running dual Z’s.

@duc696monster6

6 ай бұрын

Cause 3 d printers print up down, not in layers?...one whole layer the Z axes don't move .then move what, 0.2mm to get the next layer hight , then the whole layer print z stays still, not moving a 1000of a mm...so this "gimmick" doesnt solve anything, it's a false narrative, nicely presented, but nothing of truth to it..a bit like Ukraine war and NATO excuses...

This is so awesome man! Been following this journey for a few years now, and I'm glad to see it concluded

@MirageC

Жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

I haven´t followed the progress after your first video in this topic (refered to at 0:40), well, that must be years ago... But I always know this video here would one day come and find me... I never doubted you are gonna solve the problem, even in a mass-production-scale. I even thought the probel was solved years ago, little did I know about engineering... But that here is on another level! Longevity and good prices, not just a DIY-solution.

one of the best 3d printer channels out ther, you and vez3d rly are leading the industry RN!!!! keep it goin!!!!

@MirageC

Жыл бұрын

Thank you! I am glad you enjoy what we do 😊

@Vez3D

Жыл бұрын

❤❤

I seriously love following this not only as a Mechatronics Engineer but now I’m torn between a design like this or Voron so hard to decide now

@EgorKaskader

Жыл бұрын

It depends on your needs, really. A Voron's quad gantry belt assembly hits its limits in size quicker than this design, and I would say that the pin mod (replaces screws as axles with hardened pins) and GE5C gantry tilt blocks instead of the stock plastic on plastic tilters are almost a requirement for high performance ones. It is, however, much simpler to isolate motion problems and there's fewer of them in the first place as belts don't tend to introduce Z-axis artifacts to nearly this extent. I'm not sure the fixed bed VS tri-screw bed is really making much difference at this scale of design.

This came to me on my recommendations, and definitely not disappointed as the design more than exceeds its intended purpose. Definitely be worth its pricing, and also good Segway to the shop and pricing. Subscribed especially if you’re working on other projects, I like seeing how they progress.

Very iimpressive & clever design! Also love how you edit your videos!

Looking forward to Prusa support

Hi guy! It's fantastic design. Congratulations for that and for all the development... have you thought about or already have a plan/project for prusas?

planning to get into 3d printing, and stumble on this clip, wtf is going on sensei??? damnnnnn, I will have to come back again when I get my machine. Very extensive demonstration! SUBBED

Currently building a Trident and will be installing the WS8 when Mellow makes them available. Awesome work.

Very great video! I have made the somewhat exact same experiences you talk about in this video. I have an Ender 3 with a single Z-axis screw. I used a anti-Z-wobble constriction from Tekti from Thingiverse as inspiration, designed it completely from scratch from CAD and use it in my printer right now. It works, but as you said at 7:30 you need to fixate both ends of the screw, so the "wobble" will be transferred to the part that is made to take on the wobble. It works very great, even thoug it is 3D-printed and uses magnets instead of little rods. So far, so good. Very cool video, I like it.

@MirageC

Жыл бұрын

Thank you! Glad you liked it. Yes, many systems will accomplish the same role. Many ways to skin a cat as they say... My grandfather did anyways ... lol

@heavyweight6440

Жыл бұрын

@@MirageC Yes, I had to do some iterations, but since the print is actually 3 piece and quite small, it doesnt take long to print. I sureley had some space trouble because of the extruder stepper motor. But it works pretty good, even though not engineered/desgined to every standard. I hate to go for some shortcuts to safe a bit of space ... no threaded insert but screws directly into the plastic. Works fine if you dont tighten it too much and dont unscrew it and rescrew it every half an hour.

@patrickboyd8368

Жыл бұрын

@@heavyweight6440 Have you observed the hardened ball bearings chewing up the PLA layers buffering between the magnet pulling from the other side...in the same way MirageC noticed bearings directly on magnets chewed up the magnet surface?

@heavyweight6440

Жыл бұрын

@@patrickboyd8368 Not yet. Right now it all looks kinda good, but I can imagine that after enough print hours the magnets will probably suffer the same fate as they did in MirageC's video. I also am pretty sure that Tekti has developed a different version that doesnt use magnets anymore but 2 dowl pins as guidance for the ball bearing. They have much greater HRC then the neodym magnets and will probably not suffer such a fate. But as of now, it all looks ok. I think they weight of the tray is not great enough to damage it very fast. Otherwise you could upgrade to double Z-Axis on the ender 3 and split the load up on two anti-wobble systems. This doubles the area where force is applied and the surfaces of the magnets will live much longer. The PLA looks all fine as of now. Prints also come out good.

Biggest issue I have with my Sovol SV06 (and my Ender-3 V2 for that matter) is all z axis related. Not sure how that would fit to either of them but if the 8mm one is compatible, definitely something I'd be interested in when I have a bit of spare money.

the sound of the stepper motor slowly moving the screw and it being affected by the screw wobble is satisfying

A very elegant solution. I was actually designing something like this for my Ender 3. I used ball bearings from motorcycle parts and the pins from an old DVD writer I had around. I made some prototypes but stopped once I learned that Oldham-type nut exists.

@babbagebrassworks4278

Жыл бұрын

Yep, got them on my CNC X1 otherwise all the stepper motor torque goes into bending the screw.

Wow guys, i've been working on designing my own printer. I had long since decided to go with ballscrews and I never considered something like this on a cheap set of screws. Im really glad I haven't ordered anything for the Z axis yet! This is an ingenious solution.

Oliver, what are your thoughts on printers using belts instead of screws?

@MirageC

Жыл бұрын

I don't have experience with Belted Z, Only seen user mods of them and no official design around them. I have many questions... Will the bed jump up and down as the belt vibrates from XY vibration sent through the frame? How many parts will be involved to lift an 8mm 500*500 bed and keep it up there?.... Somehow... I don't feel the need to investigate these question anymore 😁

@dev-debug

Жыл бұрын

@@MirageC I have a custom Ender 3 IDEX, well the only thing Ender is the frame I used. I use dual side mounted Z lifts but it's not like the ones you commonly see. It runs on an 8mm hardened axle that passed under the frame. Most use flimsly shafts and mounts which can be an issue. I've seen no reaction in Z from X/Y moves on mine, was worried about it early on. It would be a pain on a 500mm cast bed, take your pick, a braking system or insanely low gear reduction. I run gear and pulley reduction at 40:1 to keep the heavier IDEX X carriage from dropping when the steppers powered off. DId the brake route first using a servo, it worked but a PIA to sync the release.

@Soravia

Жыл бұрын

Belts are nightmare at high speed, unless you can afford to go very wide and tight. The heavier the XY movements, the more vibration will be sent down.

@sanderveenman599

Жыл бұрын

@@Soravia so how is it that vorons use them apparantly without z wobble? better figure this out before i order a voron :)

@Soravia

Жыл бұрын

@@sanderveenman599 how wide is the belt vs print size for XY and the assembly weight?

Amazing! Love to see some hardcore mechanical design grace the printing space :D

Just bought a set after the restock. Can't wait to get them installed!!! I knew as soon as I saw this video how good of an idea this was. Simple yet elegant and solves the problem once and for all.

@espjim

Жыл бұрын

WHERE did you buy these? I have been looking every 5 minutes since this video came out and they are never in stock. :)

@drumid1881

Жыл бұрын

​@Jim Drew I had to wake up at 9am today to get them as I knew they would sell out fast. If you message the seller and ask for the next restock date this will give you a better time to check.

@espjim

Жыл бұрын

@@drumid1881 Thanks... I have left several messages via Aliexpress as well as their Discord channel with no response. :(

@MirageC

Жыл бұрын

They are now! Qty100 have been restocked today.

@drumid1881

Жыл бұрын

@@MirageC WHOOP WHOOP. grab them while you can

excellent work! 👏😎

@MirageC

Жыл бұрын

Thank you very much! I am glad you liked it.

@aihohuu8883

Жыл бұрын

@@MirageC I don't see in the archive the file in between Wobble X_TR8 and ZCarriage_WS8 for ender. can you share it?

@namitu3d

7 ай бұрын

​@@MirageC When can we expect a version for the Voron 0.2 with Kirigami Bed? That would be an incredible asset for the many 0.2 users

Z wobble isn't always the sole reason for Z artifacts or Z banding - No matter how much we compensate! There's always others factors coming into play, too.

@onewa712

Жыл бұрын

well of course! but like, that was a HUGE reason. It's like seeing your house has mold everywhere, no electricity and also half of it is under the water bc of the latest hurricane or whatever: Sure, fungi and lack of energy are very important, but solving the issue of the flood would greatly improve your house, and also would help to solve the other two things 😆

@NeoAcheron

Жыл бұрын

Yup... On my custom Delta printer I had the problem where the bed is static, but still experienced z-banding. Turns out it was the PSU I was using, it had a very very loud fan, that would only turn on when "needed". The fan drew enough power that the voltage dropped, causing the bed to cool a bit faster than the PID tune could kick it back up, and the expansion was enough to cause visible artifacting. Took me months to figure out.

@onewa712

Жыл бұрын

@@NeoAcheron daaaaaaaamnnn! Awesome that you found out! Sounds like something you might not find easy at all untill everything else is correct

@mikejones-vd3fg

Жыл бұрын

Right, i was just thinking about this, you dont really print while the z is moving up, so that extrusion line widh shouldnt be all uneven because of Z wobble. Well not all of it, thats more likely to due bed temp fluctuations, that will cause the z to change ever so slightly while is shirnking and contracting, something more probable since its happening constantly while on the same layer, whereas a Zrod problem would only show up in layer changes. And in this example here it does seem to be Z wobble since the pattern reflected the rods. But the uneven "bumpy" random lines he was showing arent z wobble, but more likely bed temp fluctuations. Same effect, different reason. Why I think its important to PID tune your bed while the fan is blowing as well so it has that constant cooling to fight against, should make the temperature more consistant.

@JeffDM

Жыл бұрын

This channel has a lot of videos on the topic of Z artifacts and even things that look like Z artifacts.

Cool! Design reminds me of kinematic mounts we use in optics systems.

Superb work! making it available for everyone takes it to the next level 👍

Amazing. Your scientific approach really makes me believe everything you say

This was a nice presentation but I can make system using belts 5 times cheaper and 5 times simpler and yes 5 times better.🤔😉🤘

@MirageC

Жыл бұрын

Go for it! cant wait to see your system! 😉

@lucastonoli3256

Жыл бұрын

Prove it.

man ... great work, the level of ur content is increadible ...

So Awesome. On my cart now for my Ender 3 Pro. Thank you

It's amazing to see how one person's perseverance to create the absolutely best print results can improve the whole future of a technology. I'm looking forward to see Wobble X adapted by the Voron community soon. ;-)

@pirobot668beta

Жыл бұрын

Our most useful tools have came from someone solving a 'minor problem'!

This looks interesting wonder if this could be incorporated in the Bambu lab printers? As they are tri z axis like your example

Me sitting here with a Sermoon D1 (nothing special, just a very sturdy "bed dropper" machine) and no Z wobble, shift, banding from the top of a 310mm print. This is with one of the lead screws having a slight bend. I did the math on deflection, and less than 1mm deflection translates to almost nothing. I also tightened the brass nut screws, then loosened it 1/4 turn to allow lateral shifting but no Z slop. The bed rides on two vertical 20x40mm v-slot extrusions Two things i did, i put the bed all the way down until it bottomed out and loosened the z-rods then activated the stepper motors as to jump into phase. Then i carefully tightened the couplings as to not move them in the slightest, the stepper motor will give a little while being energized. That made the z-banding nearly invisible and you had to really really look for it. Then i did the same thing again but this time i installed a timing belt, making sure they where in perfect phase i energized the motors on and off listening and feeling for any shift. That completely removed any z-banding visible. Note; I'm using a 0.5mm nozzle and regularly print at 0.12mm to 0.32mm layer heights. I always use PTFE grease on lead screws and PFTE oil/grease mix on LM8UU bearings and meticulously square my machine. Which annoyingly exposes any slop in the bearings and makes them slightly noisy.

Vielen Dank 😊 für das Video und für deine Mühe. Tolle Arbeit 😊

I'm planning on buying a bambulab X1 and leave my ender 5 plus as a backup big volume printer, but maybe with this I can extend its life a bit longer! Edit: the ws8 is out of stock, any idea when they will be back? Edit2: I installed the wobbleX, and under the correct amount of light I can see a tiny amount of movement. However, I still have massive Z issues. I gave up on my ender 5 plus, I have a bambulab X1C now and it prints flawless.

Yep. This looks amazing! Totally gonna machine my own at my local school

WOW 🤩!!! Practical example of "The Power of Open Source Innovation at it's best" 😀! Are there any use-of-open-source-in-the-industry "Industry Awards Contests" looking for contestants ? -this sure is a Winner 😀 !

Major props on this design

great contribution to the world of 3d printing, thank you

Congratulation, excelent work, thank you for your dedication! 👍

Nice! I can't wait to try this on my V-Minion!

I got so exasperated at looking for the cause of my wobbling and banding that, when I discovered that the second lead screw was going through a malaligned flange attached to the backplate, I lost it. Got unlucky with Creality's quality control (or lack of it). I stripped out the lead screws and modded the z movement to use belts instead, driven by a stepping motor on top of the assembly. It rotates a horizontsl bar via a transmission, which provides the vertical movement for the belts. Worked a treat.

Really great product! Well engineered.

I did much the same on a precision X-Y table I designed in 1993. The precision-ground NSK ball screw I used was very good geometrically but under high (1G) acceleration against an offset load, the ballnut would skew under deflection of the bracket and subsequently jam on the screw. What I implemented was basically a U-joint around the ballnut. Rolled-thread lead screws are pretty bad for precision but at low acceleration I suspect you could get away with a rubber mount.

This is amazing! Excellent work!

Wow this is incredibly cool. Is this a fully new invention or was there already a dual bar and ball style wobble table like this used in industry? Awesome video demonstrating the issue and fix.

Seriously considering tweaking my ender 3 pro... Thanks for all the hard work...

Stunning vertical print quality

Another great video! I am wondering how you do all the animations? Seems very convenient to model it and analyze the problem in 3D.

AMAZING!!! Would that support the PrusaMK3 or Mini printers at all? thanks

Dude I just saw these on aliexpress and was very curious, great video

What a great advancement for 3d printing thank u man you are the best!

@MirageC

Жыл бұрын

Thanks a lot!

That's some sick engineering!

0:04 close. The actual best is to remove the screws all together and use linear motors ( though it can be a bit pricey for off the shelf or hard to figure out diy )

Nicely done! Will definitely try to tame my wobbly Ender 3 S1. Then, I'll come back for more!

@dtibor5903

Жыл бұрын

Try just to reorient the rod in the coupler. Try to center the rod. If it's bent, replace it, not worth the hassle. Basically I never saw z wobble in real life.

I am a welder and I use 1 solid stainless rod to hold and stabilize and 1 threaded for moving up and down nor left and right movement and it fixed the issue, you can also find in most industrial how they already fixed your problem specially with CNC

this is really cool! you have a brilliant mind.

Very beautiful your work my congratulations

simple, yet awesome engineering.

This is next level! Well done 👏😄

Very informative! 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

Great Video! Earned my sub!

You're making this world a better place!

So, you recreated oldham couplers. This is why we used 5mm threaded rods in the RepRap community instead of 8mm. This way the rod could deflect and not overpower the smooth rods. Everything old is new again!

@MirageC

Жыл бұрын

Nope. OldHam coupler deal with wobbling only. These will manage the nut tilting as well as teh wobbling: 5:18.

Amazing outcome

I can't wait for the next episode on Z wobble!

@MirageC

Жыл бұрын

hahah! I hope next olympics video is before that episode! lol

GREAT Product!! Your store is out of the ws8. Any idea when you will have those back in stock?

ngl, its cool to see original idea straight to Aliexpress or Chinese volume manufacture, relieves some of the guilt having to cheap out to knockoffs that may've gone too far, either being off spec or actual cheapness for profit's sake

From the technical point of view I'm totally thrilled. From a users perspective and from Bambu X1C users perspective: It is possible to use it in this printer, too? Do I even need it for this printer? 🤔

Funny how I got to precisely the same solution after being inspired by your wobble wings...😀😀😀

years ago we started with M5 threaded Z Rods .. they bend, mostly eliminating effects of wobble seen with current massive lead screw rods being used today.

Your CAD and animation skills are legend. If you are employed, I hope you are working in the R$D department of a 3D printer company. BTW, what kind of printer did you use in this video?

Can't to wait for maglev technology implementation in 3d printers ☺️

Cool animations and use of 3D mouse ;^)

Amazing job as always!

Great work!

Never ceasing to amaze us :) Well done.

@MirageC

Жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

Thank you for your work. I have used the previous design on my printer which is now showing signs of wear. I need this upgrade. I have a question regarding supporting the top of the lead screws . Are there advantages to having it fixed vs floating? My homemade CoreXY, has a lifting bed with 2 lead screws, and 4 supporting rods on the corners. Is it not better to allow the lead screw to float with the wobble?

@MirageC

Жыл бұрын

When using the WobbleX there is no more containment of the screw at the bed level, which means it is like if the screw was free all the way down from the coupling. Chances are that a tiny deviation at the coupler will be amplified by the length of the screw. The resulting wobbling around might be too much for the WobbleX.

Great work. What's the CAD software you are using to demonstrate your work ? thanks

How is this in comparison to Oldham couplers? I have been running Oldham couplers for a while and have seen an improvement. But I feel this might work better. defiantly less friction.

This is amazing and innovative! I tried to buy 3 for my V-Core3.1 yesterday. There were only 3 in stock so I added them so my cart and as I was checking out someone had purchased one and totally ruined my order. Do you know if they'll be back in stock soon?

this is amazing work.

I am happy with the belted z lift on the Valkyrie triple z. It eliminate any wobble due to screws.

@MirageC

Жыл бұрын

Sweet! glad to hear that. Did you have to install a brake system to secure the bed when motors are not energized?

Awesome work.. do you have or are you working on adapters for Creality K1 & K1 Max as I've seen people on one of the forums complaining about this very issue? Thanks and very impressive work again !!!!

just ordered one of these for my Ender 5 S1, will there be any adaptation for the ender5? Im pretty sure i can just use the ender 3 and just design a lead screw lock for this printer and be good to go. great design!

Great to see man!