0:15 Youch, I didn't expect to be so mercilessly called out to start off this video!

@ifcodingwerenatural

6 ай бұрын

I only speak as one who knows.

Long time suffer from RSI here. What helped for me a lot was getting the monitor height right, the neck/shoulders can put lot of pressure on the nerves in your arms, which leads to wrists pain. Did a lot of yoga and Alexander technique which helped a lot too. Best mouse I have found so far is a contour mouse, they help put your wrist in a more neutral position. Keyboard wise I’m really loving the 360, but I’m using a 36 key layout on it, the reduced finger movement and stretching has reduced my pain levels to the best ever. Tried the flat split keyboard but can quickly feel a flare up coming. The key wells and tenting on the 360 are awesome. Hopefully one day I’ll try out the glove 80. Keep up the great content 😊

@max_pin

6 ай бұрын

This is such a good point. The keyboard is just one element and if your desk is too high and monitor is too low, you're going to have a rough time no matter what keyboard you use.

@lanceareadbhar

3 ай бұрын

Agree as I'm usually fine working in the office with the same keyboard as at home, but at home I feel a lot more pain at the end of the day. That said my most recent pain is in my upper shoulders so am here to see if these would help keep my shoulders further apart and stop unintentionally hunching.

This video could not have come at a better time for me! Looking forward to watching

I think one of the main resons the Kinesis brand does well is that they are in corporate accounts. I needed to get ergo and my employeer was only setup with a few brands - I just ended up on the Kinesis Adv Pro. I really wanted the Glove80 but it was not in any of my options. I had the same experience as you - the day I switched my RSI was gone. It was amazing. It has given me my life back.

I think you’ve convinced me to try the Glove80. I want to make the transition to split keyboards. I like the design of the voyager but it might be too difficult as new in this area. Thank you great video!!

Glad I found this video; I am on the lookout for my next keyboard, coming from a long-time RealForce enjoyer. Didn't even know most of those styles exist. ty!

Thanks for the fantastic content on split keyboards! Your reviews and comparisons are incredibly helpful. I'm curious, do you primarily focus on columnar layout, or are you open to trying staggered ones? We've chosen a staggered layout for our first keyboard with the aim of encouraging more people to give them a try. Your insights on different layouts would be invaluable to us.

Thanks for adding a new video over the long weekend, I love this topic! I like your reviews because you are a programmer like me so you appreciate larger numbers of keys. For me, the main step in getting rid of my RSI was getting an Evoluent Vertical mouse. I tried some fancier ones and cheaper ones, but none of them worked for me. There are two topics that I've never seen mentioned in any video comments or forums: 1. I like the fact that Oryx allows you to program the LED colors for each key, because I like to change these per layer. For instance, I have a gaming/number key layer and when I use this it highlights "easf", as you mentioned, on the left hand, while creating a 9 number layout on the right hand. Each of my layers have different color coding which is the main reason I haven't switched over to the Glove 80. The rainbow fade is pretty, but not utilitarian. 2. Why is it that contoured keyboard users that use the Voyager don't get RSI? Well, I think that it is because the columnar layout on the Voyager is more vertically staggered and closer to matching people's actual finger lengths than the Moonlander was. When you lay your fingers down flat on it, your main 4 digits line up more accurately with the keys and so you don't need to cup your fingers anymore. Because of this, I've come to a theory that if manufactures measured the finger lengths and made different sizes of keyboard for different sizes of hands, that would make flat keyboards like the ZSAs totally acceptable.

love your ergo keyboard videos. keep them coming! big fan

awesome video man -- super thorough and honest -- love to see it!

It's always interesting to see the different ways developers tackle RSI. At work I use a Leopold keyboard and bind the caps lock to control (emacs user). At home ironically I have a red dragon blue switch keyboard and I don't need to modify anything. Love your videos!

20 seconds into the video and the man has confronted me with my purchasing obsession.

Great vid, thank you! Would've loves to see some b-rolls of you typing on these keyboards.

Subbed, RSI is a major factor and not many reviewers discuss it. Thank you very much! You sold me on the glove 80.

@beaucranston9586

4 ай бұрын

I just left a comment about my RSI journey and what I did to cure myself. Hopefully it helps you.

@MrJ4ckie

3 ай бұрын

Probably because a lot of them don't have it, and so they can't accurately judge what makes it flare up or what helps in extreme cases

I found that the biggest helper for my RSI was to switch over to a trackball mouse, particularly the Logitech Mx Ergo Plus. Being able to have the mouse angled to reduce pronation was a god send with this mouse.

@axelrafn

3 ай бұрын

I thougt about that myself but ended up on getting the Logitech MX Vertical instead, I can´t play games with a trackball mouse myself

@BFedie518

2 ай бұрын

I had one of those but switched to an Elecom Deft Pro. I prefer using my index and middle finger for the ball.

@americoperez810

2 ай бұрын

@@BFedie518 I have an RSI in my wrist that pains me anytime I use my index finger while my wrist is pronated. So that's why I got a thumb track ball, but any trackball mouse would probably have done the job IMO The important thing that made the difference was fixing the pronation of the wrist.

Thanks for the reviews. Coming from the Corne keyboard, the two thumb keys put me off the Voyager. However, I just noticed Oryx supports combo keys now, and I will be testing if I can configure the 3rd thumb key by pressing the 2 keys.

@gustavo.robles

6 ай бұрын

I ended up removing the number row on the voyager and zipping the top row and outermost columns on both sides for a 34 key layout. I haven’t tried yet but I saw somebody on Reddit using a 3D printed key cap for an extra thumb key after moving everything one row up. I’ll probably try that in the next days

In the process of having work either get a glove80, moonlander, or advantage 360. Perfect timing to help with the decision next week!

yo i love the vid, super informative thanks! (probably gonna start with the Moonlander). Just wanted to say, I'm not sure what you goals are with the channel but I would for sure link to each of the keyboards in the description (i looked to check them out individually on their company websites (bonus if they were affiliate links!)). also, linking the to the other keyboard-specific videos would probably help drive views on those as well (added benefit if you also throw links to the respective keyboard in each of those videos as well. anyway cheers!

@ifcodingwerenatural

5 ай бұрын

Good point! Links have been added, and yeah, I wish they were affiliate links 😆

Oryx is the reason why I got my first split keyboard as the Voyager, I think it is trully underrated and the team keeps updating it giving us more features. (Also I work in a hybrid model so portablity is really important to me)

@richardloricco

6 ай бұрын

How was the switch for you? I am torn between the Glove80 and the Voyager. My heart wants the voyager, but I am a tad worried about adjusting to the lower key count

Thank you for the in-depth reviews! I'm looking for a split keyboard to help my shoulders/neck, and some occasional wrist/finger pain (usually after gaming a lot, which I don't do as much now but still sometimes). Leaning towards the Glove80 now after some research. Previously was interested in the Advantage360 introduced by ThePrimeagen, but read an article about how Glove80 is designed even better re: the curve and the heights and the keycaps and the key angles. And your video solidified my choice! ~12:30 I like ESDF, since the hand sits where it ought to for typing. But have to remap a bunch of bindings. Or use WASD but without using the index finger (use other 3 fingers), so again the hand can sit in the correct spot, but could be hard on the pinky!

As for gaming, having used keyboards like these for 15 years for work and games, in my experience nothing beats reconfiguring every game from WASD to ESDF (or the Colemak equivalent in my case). Yes, it is a bit of a PITA and takes an extra 10 minutes to do, but it is super comfortable. I only use the left keyboard half when gaming, and put the right half further back, so the mouse can be in the most ergonomic position. When chatting in game I have to reach a bit further back with my right arm, but that's fine, also there's often voice communication via Discord or the like. BTW on my non-gaming computers (Macs) I use either a trackpad (Apple's) or Trackball (Elecom Deft Pro) to have some variety, I think it helps with RSI.

@ifcodingwerenatural

6 ай бұрын

Thanks for this extra perspective! Always interesting to hear what works well for other people.

@shrugalic

6 ай бұрын

@@ifcodingwerenatural you're very welcome. Hearing about other people's perspectives is what I like so much about videos like yours. They help make decisions, get insight, be inspired, … Forgot to mention that my keyboard is Colemak in hardware (or firmware), so I have to configure every game anyway. I had thought about making a gaming layer where WASD is at the ESDF position, but that leaves many other keys without such a well-established standard as WASD. And in multiplayer games, where one types at other people, not having the layout one is accustomed to would be very weird. Another standard key I like to move is shift, that's often the run key, and having that on a thumb is great with ESDF for movement. And A for action (can be used by pinky when moving with ESDF). And W and R and G for other important stuff. More as needed.

@mina86

6 ай бұрын

With programmable keyboards it shouldn’t even be 10 minutes per game. Just create a layout where letters are shifted and switch to it whenever you play games. I actually have half of Ergo Dox specifically for games with such remapping.

@kejtos5

3 ай бұрын

WASD sucks even on standard keyboard, coz it severely limits the number of keys you can use. I switched to UHJK few years back since it allows me to press space without using finger for that.

@floatingpointfloatin

2 ай бұрын

I came here to say the same. I switched to ESDF years ago (on normie keyboards). It opens up a lot more keys: for the pinky (q,a,z) which you can easily hit while moving with esdf. Also, the bump on the f key makes it easy to return to the movement keys if you need to reach for something. Remapping a new game only takes a few minutes. When you get a new game you need to take a few minutes to figure out the keys anyways.

Really appreciate your thorough reviews! I love my Advantage 2, but needed a more portable option as my new role is hybrid, so I just pulled the trigger on the glove80. Do you have any ergonomic mice you'd recommend?

Great video, subbed!

Just got the voyager this weekend and still learning. putting LEFT, UP, RIGHT on one row is a game changer. took a while to get used to it but ill never look back

@shrugalic

6 ай бұрын

Did you put DOWN in the same row too, or below? I've been using left, up, down, right in a single row on my left hand for years (on the bottommost row on an ErgoDox), which is handy when the right hand is on the mouse. It did take some getting used to. On the Voyager the arrow keys are on layer 1 in the ESDF position, very comfortable indeed. Because of the few thumb keys I couldn't have a layer switch on the left thumb, so I put an extra layer toggle-while-holding on the A key instead (sort of like a home row mod), just to be able to reach the arrows easily with one hand. Another layer-while-holding is on a right hand thumb key.

I was hoping there would be a sale on for the Voyager, Black Friday n’all. I have a glove 80 but it’s a bit of a ‘statement piece’ whipping it out in a coffee shop. 😂

@ifcodingwerenatural

6 ай бұрын

😂

@udyb

6 ай бұрын

They've never had BF discounts.

Thank you, great video!

Great video looking for a replacement for my Moonlander after the plastic broke in under a year.

Got my glove 80 because of ur recommendation I love it. No more RSI

I used an older version of the kinesis that saved my RSI. Nice to see the model updated a bit with larger f-keys. I don't use it much today, but it did save MY LIFE when in extreme distress due to arm pains.

Hey, thanks for the video. What helped me with my RSI was switching over to a trackball. Instead of the whole arm, one needs to just move the thumb, massive difference. Took me 1 week to adjust, never looked back, RSI gone. Insanely comfortable compared to ANY mouse. Give it a try if you have some time, you will love it.

I'd suggest looking into trying either the Dygma raise and or defy!. I have both and am extremely happy. Been using the raise for a few years with the tenting kit, and the defy for a little over a month. Raise is staggered and the defy is columnar.

Great video, it will help people to pick the right one.

I've had a Kinesis Advantage for so long. Like, this one that I'm typing on now might be 15 years old. We've got 4 of them in the house (2 people, and I had one for work, and one that's really REALLY old). They're extremely reliable. I'm inclined to go towards the Kinesis not just because the customer service is great, but you pay a bit more and you get something that will work for a long, long time. My per-year cost for these keyboards is so low.

Have tried all of these as well! I still go back to the Corne running VIAL. Ticks every box and has the best thumb cluster around (3 keys). Pinky stagger is there but not too much. Spot on.

I'm curious, do you use a vi type editor? I'm also a developer and I noticed that a lot of people here on KZread that get into these ergo keyboards are into Neovim. I also like custom keyboards but more so the standard qwerty 75% layouts. I use jetbrains IDEs in my day to day so I'm not constantly typing to navigate around. Just wondering if there's any correlation between using your keyboard to navigate and RSI.

@ifcodingwerenatural

6 ай бұрын

Oh yes, I'm pretty deep into the neovim ecosystem 😅. My theory is that people who are drawn to neovim also write an abnormal amount of code, which equates to high keyboard usage, which leads to higher occurrences of RSI. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a correlation between using neovim and having an ergo keyboard.

Thanks for awesome content. I have been torn between voyager and glove80. I don’t have RSI but I would like to try to avoid it if possible. Can you do a video between voyager and glove80? Thanks!

Great content! Thanks for taking the time to compare these four different ergonomic keyboards. Regarding the Voyager, you say, “Not having a dedicated shift key on the thumb cluster feels like it’s just really holding me back on this keyboard.” Then why aren’t you using Oryx to program one of the thumb keys as a dedicated shift key? I’m currently waiting for my Voyager to arrive and have already designed an initial layout that includes a dedicated shift key on the thumb cluster.

@KenW418

4 ай бұрын

Did you get your voyager yet? I ordered one a few days ago. Is it as awesome as I feel like it will be?

Thanks for great overview! I chose Glove80 after 2 years with Moonlander. Never been happier since then. One question. Did you build the mounting plate yourself? Is there any chance to buy parts of quick release mounting somewhere on Amazon? I have one kit bought from Glove80, but need the second one for my Hotas setup, though no desire to spend another 100+ dollars on it.

@ifcodingwerenatural

6 ай бұрын

I have the mounting plates, but then I made my own using the original plates as a template. The Glove80 user guide shows the measurements for the stud positions, so it wouldn't be difficult to make your own mounting plates (page 46, cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0695/7078/9649/files/Glove80_User_Guide_7Oct2023.pdf). Any quick release plate should work so long as you can attach it to the mounting plates. I briefly talk about my custom mounting plates in my Glove80 review video (kzread.info/dash/bejne/m6ue1suHqKTRfaQ.html).

@chaitanya-varu

5 ай бұрын

could you please tell what were the reasons to switch from moonlander to glove80?

@ScreentubeR

5 ай бұрын

@@chaitanya-varuKeywell, low-profile keycaps, bluetooth up to 4 devices + usb one.

@chaitanya-varu

5 ай бұрын

@@ScreentubeR thanks for the reply. I was confused between these 2. not sure if all the thumb keys in glove80 would be useful to me. I was thinking that moonlander has 4 keys, so it would be more easily reachable

Thank you for touching upon RSI issues. Having these since 14 (gaming too much). Now 28, Data Scientist, programming loads gives me flare ups now and again. Checked your previous vids on Glove80, though this vid first one to get deeper into RSI. Now the price seems more proportional to the value it may give to those who suffer RSI. Truth be told, using magic keyboard and mouse and not helping me at all :D

Just ordered a keyboard yesterday largely based on your other videos yesterday and got a little freaked out when i started watching this video being like "Oh damn - please don't contradict my purchase reasoning". Luckily that's not the case. For me, it was a decision between Glove80 and Voyager - having used a ZSA Ergodox since it came out. I went for a Voyager - my reasoning - Being blessed not to have RSI (but cautious not to get it because like you I love my programming job) it is mainly about efficiency and comfort with little tinkering for me - You covered on big point for me - gaming - i have a “regular” keyboard just for gaming at the moment due to the “domino effect” you mentioned - i think out of the 4 compared voyager will enable the least friction with games - Using the keyboard in an open floor office the voyager will be the least “freaky” - while I love having the “oh wow - what is THAT?” conversation every now and then I think the voyager will turn less heads on first sight. E.g. using it portable during workshops with people etc. It still retains the “don’t try to use my keyboard” protection due to blank keys :P (I hate when people “quickly wanna show” me something on my machine) - being a user of ZSA’s configurator I don’t wanna go for anything else that is less convenient - Being forced into a smaller layout - like you mentioned in the video. I noticed on my ergodox that I could easily also have the small keys on the thumb cluster with a Homerow mod - something that the voyager will now force me to do. Do you have any recommendations for voyager tenting solutions by any chance? (you show some in some of your videos - i did get the tripod mounts)? Might even be interesting for a broader audience what is your experience with those (e.g. with your glove80 on your chair etc.) Thanks for all the great content around split keyboards! Highly appreciated!

@ifcodingwerenatural

6 ай бұрын

Thanks for the compliments! I'm still pretty new to mounting and constantly tinkering with the position and angle of the Glove80, but I've settled on mounting it on my desk where my mouse is still within comfortable reaching distance. The chair mount is great, but it puts my mouse too far out of reach. I think I'd need to get a trackball/trackpad to make the chair mount a viable option. For tenting on the Voyager without tripod mounts, I don't have much to say. I just use the magnetic pucks and have been pretty happy with that!

@shrugalic

6 ай бұрын

Thanks for your detailed perspective. Aye, the ZSA configurator is very good, maybe even best in class. The Glove80 configurator is pretty decent as well. As for gaming, with a column staggered layout, or sculpted key wells even more so, I find it's best to bite the bullet and reconfigure each game so the hand can rest on ESDF rather than WASD. I find it interesting that so many people favor small layouts. I understand the appeal too, but did have some trouble with thumb key limits on the Voyager. Having used Advantages and Ergodoxes for 15 years the Glove80 is more to my taste, or rather closer to what I'm used to. All of the 4 keyboards presented are fantastic, and if limited to either things would be fine. May I recommend reading the website A guide to home row mods? They do take some getting used to in perhaps unexpected ways, which made me enjoy having extra keys. See if they work for you, or maybe check out alternatives such as Callum style mods.

I just subbed as a show of solidarity as I too have prefrontal cortex, um, challenges. As to gaming I long ago realized that programming and gaming were substantially different activities. So I standardized on putting the "typing keyboard" aside for games and using a left-hand gaming Razer keyboard (20 keys + a thumb-operated mini joystick) combined with a Redragon MMO mouse (12 thumb keys). Changing their profiles lacks the convenience of shifting layers on today's split keyboards, but on the other hand the time required for changing their per-game profiles is insignificant when compared to the coffee breaks provided by today's AAA loading screens.

The keyboard options that you presented to us are amazing but I think that for those prices I can buy a Lily58 Wireless and try different layouts easier for half the price.

I got a Moonlander, but became interested the Ergodox Ez. I recommend the Ergo over the Moonlander for a static office, and I suspect the voyager is better if you need some portability

Do you have a good way to use a mouse which does not involve excessive moving of your hands to the mouse from this keyboard?

I am to get the glove80 at some point, but I wanted to experiment with something cheaper and with fewer keys. I almost went full 34-36, but my pinkies have been trained for flexibility, so I went with a Sufle Choc instead (60-ish keys, kinda like the Voyager). I also like that it is very easy to make it a gaming keyboard. For anyone reading this in EU (even worldwide, but EU for convenience) mechboards co uk are currently having one of the cheapest prebuilt preorders I've seen for such keyboards (thx to Black Friday). If you like the voyager, Sufle Choc is pretty much the same, only with more thumb keys. Corne Choc is 42 keys, and they even have Ferris Sweep (34 keys). Sadly, only wired versions, and no rgb, but at least they are a cheap entry into the niche and I'm pretty sure they have decent resale value.

@0l3gK

6 ай бұрын

are they hotswappable?

@atanas-nikolov

6 ай бұрын

@@0l3gK Yeah

@shrugalic

6 ай бұрын

The Sofle looks interesting with the knobs, and it's very affordable. As does the Lily58 with 2 extra keys instead of knobs. Since you mentioned more thumb keys, do you operate the bottom row with your thumbs then? Personally I prefer spreading the thumbs away from the fingers rather than folding them below the fingers, but that's probably personal preference. The voyager is pretty nice in this regard, though it desperately needs at least one more thumb key IMO.

@atanas-nikolov

6 ай бұрын

@@shrugalic I thought the same about thumb keys, but for my arc, none of the designs work if they require the thumb to spread out, without it also going quite low. The Voyager will work for sure, I quite like the design, but a third thumb key on it will have to go inwards for me. That changes with a keywell, because the thumb then rests in a more vertical position (not exactly, but it has a different plane of operation). I don't doubt that the Glove80 will be more comfortable in that regard. I use 3 thumb keys at most, don't know why the Sofle has 5, as the inner two seem kinda impossible to reach comfortably and quickly. Some people use them as arrow keys for leisure operations, not during active use. My thumb comfortably goes below my index, which is fine for the Sofle. That being said, I'm thinking about experimenting with only 2 thumb keys, and jumping to a wireless Ferris Sweep at some point, or a 42 Cantor/Piantor, if I can't manage with 2 thumb keys. The Sofle V2 is another alternative, it has more pinky stagger and the thumb cluster favors outer movement of the thumb. Sadly, I couldn't find the design for the Choc version at a reasonable price. Nonetheless, I'm enjoying the hobby and will probably get myself a kit for the MX version and experiment with some lower travel and profile keys that are supposed to make it "Choc like", while offering the versatility of MX.

@shrugalic

6 ай бұрын

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I suppose a thumb key right below the index should still be fine, and the Sofle v2 does just that. I agree with your point about it changing in 3D. Because they are so affordable, I think I am going to try a Sofle or Lily58, as that might just solve the thumb key issues I had with the Voyager. The Lily58 in particular has single keys below the displays, and I like that innermost column for index operation on keyboards that have it (ErgoDox, Advantage, Moonlander). It does have one less key in the bottom row, but when those are considered thumb keys, that should be fine because the missing key didn't seem easily reachable. Nor does the 4th (outermost bottom) key beside it, but I suppose that can serve as a spare of sorts.

For the voyager, I recommend mounting it sideways. I kinda wish the it had fewer keys.. I don’t use the outermost column or uppermost row on it so 34. I’d love to go down to 28, but then 2 letters would have to go on another layer and I kinda hate that in principle. What home row settings did you arrive at for it in terms of delays?

@gustavo.robles

6 ай бұрын

I have the same setting as you, I found a 3D zip kit in printables and I removed all the switches and zipped them for a 34 key layout. Love it so far, might even try moving everything one row up to have more thumb keys, 2 thumb keys are enough for me but I’d like to try shift on my thumbs with a third.

Do you type with your wrist floating? I started to do that recently and it has combated my RSI severely. It’s nonexistent ever since I’ve started typing with floating wrist. According to PrimeTime, in the kinesis manual, they say you should type with floating wrists, and rest your wrists on the wrist pads when not typing.

As someone has been daily driving a 36 key layout for almost a year now (same as Ferris sweep, but with three thumb keys. Ran it emulated with software on my laptops built in keyboard, which was horrendous but worked to try it out, and recently finished my split board build), I can honestly say that I don’t think I could use a keyboard with more rows or columns anymore. Sure I could make it work, but I’d never use anything beyond the 36 I use now. It’s the perfect number of keys that I never have to stretch even a little, and 6 thumb keys mean 6 extra layers, so I have no shortage of places to bind keys to. I think the Glove80 is likely what I’d buy if I had to go for one on the market, instead of building one myself like I did, but even if I had one, I’d only be using 36 of the keys anyways. Also portability, as a student, it’s amazing to toss my 36 key keyboard in my bag and it’s the smallest thing in my bag, and I have a full desktop class typing experience in class taking notes. Truly amazing for someone working in the go a lot. Not a callout like you said in the video, but wanted to share my experience with tiny keyboards! Even as a software engineer, it’s extremely usable! I’ll likely never go back.

I just got the Kinesis 360 Pro. It feels great, but is a pain to even try to remap any keys. ( Still haven't done it).Woulda got the non-pro version, but really wanted the back lit keyboard, and that's only with the pro version. Video ides? Maybe a how-to for key remapping on the Kenesis Advantage 360 Pro?

@ifcodingwerenatural

6 ай бұрын

I touch on key remapping in one of my videos on the Adv360 (kzread.info/dash/bejne/e3iV28hwibOyo8o.html), but yeah, it's not a bad idea to make a dedicated video on it!

I believe you are using magnetic USB connecters, do you have a brand/link to the ones you've found that works well? I was lost looking at some poor reviews amongst the 10s of clones listed.

I'm at the moment a happy user of an Ultimate Hacking Keyboard and a Keyboardio Atreus. The UHK is my "work desk" keyboard and the Atreus is my travel keyboard. I love them both, for different reasons, but what they have in common of course is full-travel MX-style keys (Kailh Blue and Kailh Box White), and I absolutely love that positive mechanical travel and click. I'm really compelled by the Voyager, and while everyone is clear that the Choc low-profile switches have shorter travel and thus feel different, I'm not seeing a lot of reviews that talk about this. I get that it's a subjective thing, but I'd love to see some coverage of HOW they feel different, and if that's better or worse or if there are pluses or minuses to one vs the other.

I’m want the best one with curved well so maybe glove 80 but I prefer the look of kinesis 360. Any other options?

I have been looking into split boards but I don't think my brain can rewire to adapt. I feel like I will take a very long time to adapt. Does the transition from standard KB to split KB easy ... does it take along time to adjust? I fear that I buy (I have never touch one) one I wont be able to use it, does it take long to get used to it? I'm a chap from the "old" school (70s) Thanks for sharing your thoughts I appreciate the info for newbies like me to split system. -OneLove

I would have liked more of a deep dive into the GUI options. I love the Ergodox and I think their software is mostly amazing.

@SnowTheParrot

6 ай бұрын

He dives deeper into the software and GUI's on other videos. I don't feel like putting any links but if you go to his page you will find them lol

I have switched from a non ergo keyboard to the glove80 recently. I an experiencing more pain than i used to, particularly while programming because curly braces are difficult to reach. I have not gone through creating a custom layer because i like to rely on defaults. Should i try going all in on layers with the ferris?

@ifcodingwerenatural

6 ай бұрын

imho, you're really shooting yourself in the foot by not taking advantage of layers for programming. Good ergonomics is a combination of things. If you're still experiencing pain while typing, it's 100% worth moving symbols to easy-to-reach spots on a different layer!

@shrugalic

6 ай бұрын

What he said. These keyboards are programmable for a reason, and the Glove80 configurator is pretty good. All the default layouts I've seen suck in one way or another for my personal preference. Check out different layouts from other people to get inspired, and think what your needs are / what you could profit from. You can check out ErgoDox or Moonlander layouts in ZSA Oryx too, for more inspiration. The default brackets work for me, but I got used to that on an Advantage years ago. With the layer key easily accessible with a thumb, there are many good spots to put braces on another layer. How about prime spots such as J and K, or L and ;? Do you need the numblock on the lower layer? If not, use those positions for something useful to you. If you do need it, maybe put in on another layer. Or make an easily accessible layer with the stuff you need. What about the parentheses spot on the lower layer, do you use that, or do you use the ones on the shifted base layer's 9 and 0 position? I work in a software engineering company where many have a programmable keyboards, and there are no two people with exactly the same layout.

Have you considered using a vertical mouse or a trackball? I can use a regular keyboard for hours without getting any pain, but for me, using a mouse is a very quick way to get crippling pain that will last for days. I'm very tempted to try the Glove80, it may not be as pretty as the Advantage 360 and it's thumb cluster looks way too big for my taste, but the prospect of mounting it to my chair is very appealing. I'm not sure if I'd use the Voyager as my "daily driver", but it sure looks like something I'd keep in my backpack so I don't have to use my laptop's keyboard when I'm away from home, just like I already carry a wireless trackball for such situations. My only issue with the Voyager is that is seems to be wired only... for using on the go, a wireless would be a lot more convenient. I don't mind carrying a USB cable, but my experience with split keyboards makes me want to avoid TRRS cables as much as I can.

Hey, did you saw the Naya keyboard? I will love to see your review !

It sure is expensive to have health issues isn’t it? I’m currently using a Microsoft sculpt and haven’t cut over to a columnar yet. I can’t really use any other keyboard my right hand slowly gets nerve issues/will go numb. I’m on the fence and considering the Glove80. I want low profile and wrist rests, I’ll never compromise there. Only thing holding me back is the noise, the Glove sounds loud, I’ve gotten used to nearly silent typing which is a big deal on calls for me. I think if the Glove was hot-swappable I would have pulled the trigger already. So much to consider…

I like the MD770 split mechanical keyboard. The switches are soldered on. It's a 75% keyboard and can be configured. There are BT and wired versions.

I have been using the glove80 for about 5 months now. After two weeks of suffering due to the drastic change, it started feeling natural. At 5 months, I can say my hands hurt less, I’ve trained out my bad typing habits and type with all my fingers now, and my speed has gone up by roughly 10% I love the keyboard and would recommend it to anybody

I got wrist pains, tried an Alice layout, did not help at all, then i went split (lily58) which helped a lot, then got progressively less keys, I am typing on a 34 key ferris sweep right now. The more you adapt and learn to use smaller layouts, the more productive I've become, at this point, anything with more keys feels like a burden to type on.

Just Like you foretold: i am a software engineer and i have been using a Ferris sweep full time for more than a year. The learning curve took some time but i absolutely love it. It fixed most of my rsi issues. Only thing i am missing is tilting because i don't have a solution for that yet. I am working on it =)

Biggest thing I have ever done to help my RSI was to get a Logitech MX Ergo trackball.

I switched from the Logitech vertical mouse to a kensington trackball trackblade slim. It worked wonders for working for a year, no more wrist movement, helped so much. The issue appeared now tho, since the movements with the trackball caused a tenniselbow ... cant do it right

Yeah set up the patreon or something because I'd also really like to see you do the dygma defy. I'm in such a tossup between that and the glove80

The voyager was my first, but I also use the tap strap xr for extra keys and super small portability

I am having surgery and will be in a sling for 6 weeks. I type for a living. I was looking for a split keyboard so I can have the right half, next to my hand, without extending my arm. Do you recommend a none-mechanical split keyboard?

Haha, yeah... My first split ergo is the ferris sweep. Using it right now. Miryoku QMK with Colmak-DHm layout. I like it, but thinking about Glove80 or Moonlander so I can get some of my dedicated keys back. I like the full travel of the MX style switches on my "normie" keyboard but maybe the Glove80 will convert me with it's contours.

You spoke a lot about “home row mod” on the Voyager. Could you share more about what that means and how it helps? Thanks for your keyboard videos. I’m seriously tempted to upgrade 😊

@kennethng9653

2 ай бұрын

Look up 'A guide to home row mods'

@roberthahn8555

2 ай бұрын

Thank you!

Best thing about the ZSA keyboards is their hot switch capabilities. Being able to change the switches is amazing. All keyboards should offer it, though I’m aware that the Glove80 can’t do it cause of the grooves

how do you keep the Glove80 from sliding around? My palms will stick to the palm rest and when I have to rotate my palm to reach some of the fat thumb keys or pinky keys it will swivel the whole keyboard. So frustrating!!

@ifcodingwerenatural

5 ай бұрын

That hasn't been an issue for me, but I have a desk mat that probably helps with grip.

Great video! I'm a big fan of a dedicated gaming layer on the Glove80. All games are WASD by default so why make things harder by remapping all your games when you can switch to a layer instantly that will work with everything.

my favorite 36-keys otho splits, any click 1 movement away, no need to stretch, most difficult was switching from qwerty to colemak-dh, but homerow/miryoku/layers are easy things to learn

Speaking of mice and RSI. I can't recommend a trackball enough, preferably one with a scroll ring. I learnt to use mine with my left hand, since I have problems mostly with my right. My accuracy isn't as high as a mouse but it's plenty good enough for normal use, including programmer, etc. I still use a mouse for gaming, but not using the mouse most of the time makes a big difference for em.

In terms of typing speed coming from a traditional staggered keyboard, I find that typing words like "decided" work better if I stick my elbow out to the left so i can type 'd' and 'c' with my pointer finger and 'e' with my middle finger. The columnar linearity seems like it would make it impossible to do that, but if I *had* to pick either the Voyager or the Glove80 with typing speed in mind, which do you think would be better?

@KenW418

4 ай бұрын

I don't have either of them, but have ordered the voyager. I feel as though if you are buying one of these keyboards, having to "relearn" how to type so you can type using this ergonomic keyboard is probably the expectation. I think you would build your speed back up as you used it and you shouldn't buy one specifically because you would be faster with it out of the box.

@cooltrashgamer

4 ай бұрын

I don't think I would be faster out of the box, I just don't know if it's possible to ever match speeds using the ortho linear layout because a lot of keys that you press in sequence are in the same column. So if there's no stagger and your hands are straight, you can only hit those keys with one finger.@@KenW418

Also chipping in re: wha helped me with RSI. Biggest breakthrough for me: use a trackpad, not a mouse. This helps me so much, it seems to reduce muscle tension quite a bit. In terms of keyboard: have been using a big old clunky Microsoft natural erognomic keyboard (4000 model) and never looked back. It's not pretty and requires quite hard key presses, but it took alway all my rsi complaints and they never came back.

@max_pin

6 ай бұрын

Trackballs are also very good. Better still: use two of them and alternate hands.

So let's say I dont want to play around with keys, I guess the Kinesis is easier to game with than the Glove 80 based on your review?

Any suggestions about Dactyl Manuform?

I had to lookup what RSI means. I don't think I have that after 12 years as a Software Engineer, but my typing speed tops out at around 70 kpm, so maybe that has something to do with it? I have had mild soreness in my forearm on rare occasion, but it usually resolves within a day or so with some massage and stretches. I also use a thumb trackball mouse.

I'm that guy with the ferris sweep and I only use 34 keys, but it just doesn't feel nice to type on. I've been using a moonlander with only 34 keys (removed the other keys with their zip kit), but just got my hands on a defy. I bought a second one for work about an hour after typing on it, it's really nice. Even though there are still way too many keys. Imagine how nice the zsa keyboards feel from a quality standpoint, and dial it up a bit. With the keyboards you seem to like here, I think you'd really like the defy.

@thedog5k

6 ай бұрын

I just got mine the other day. Absolutely awesome. I kickstarted it so long ago I forgot I bought it. I actually got it for gaming… and I hardly play anymore XD. Still great for keeping at my desktop. Some thumb buttons seem excessive while not gaming, but I could only use half and still have 4! I was just starting to look into a keyboard about a month ago to upgrade my old ergodox from. My heart started calling out for a voyager, and i recently found the sofle models with dials or even cooler FREAKING TRACKBALL. I’m flipping between the two, and then the Dygma shows up at my door. Debating if I should not buy now 😅 I do think the dygma is bigger than I want to bring with my laptop.

I don’t know where the shift key is on the voyager, but on a traditional keyboard you aren’t supposed to use the opposite hand to press shift (like if I want to do a capital “A” the. I should be pressing shift with my right hand). That should make the “anchoring” while typing a nonissue

Please review UHK v2 with the trackball .

I also use the Logitech mx master 3 and unfortunately find myself getting really bad discomfort in my right pinky and ring fingers where they hang off the side. Unfortunate because I love the mouse. May have to switch to a vertical mouse

So I built a modified Corne keyboard. My first split keyboard, I'm sort of regretting going so ham. But it's not for the lack of keys, it's because I did not know I would need to use ZMK when I built it. So I'm stuck with a keyboard layout that is not mine (I pulled the config file from the git repo I got the board from). Anyway I have no clue how to work with zmk 😅

@ifcodingwerenatural

5 ай бұрын

That's rough! I highly recommend checking out nickcoutsos.github.io/keymap-editor/. You can get pretty far with layout customization without writing any config code.

Tyvm.

As a software developer with joint issues, I'm starting to really think about longevity in my early 30s. I'm currently using a regular keyboard but I have my eye on that glove80. I'll go watch your in depth review. Thank you! Btw for gaming you could use separate arrow keys if the curved keyboard doesn't work. I bought a set when I bought a keyboard that turned out to be a 60% as opposed to a 65% (why name in 65 tho! but I probably should have noticed...) and because I type in dvorak I find that it's useful for games that don't revert my dvorak to qwerty for wasd. I put the separate arrows on the left so I can arrow + mouse. Edit: About the mouse, I found my hand really starts to hurt with a small mouse. I'm a relatively petite (read: short) woman with small hands, but they handed me an Apple magic mouse at work and oh boy the hand pain was real. I ended up requesting an ergonomic mouse when you turn your hand to the side like a handshake and I'm very happy. I'll probably get one for my personal setup. Another thing: have you seen the Dactyl Manuform? It's a little bit like the voyager with a bit of curve and it looks like it has that third thumb button you're looking for. I think you might have to DIY it though - sounds like it's a 3D print type situation. I think some people make them to order if you want to try it but aren't feeling that make-it-yourself thing. Interested in your opinion!

When playing games, why don't you use WASD, but to use the normal fingers (pinkie-middle) with index and thumb free to press other keys?

Hey, I am wondering if there are any such keyboard for a lower budget? I don’t think I can spend more than 150 on a keyboard but I’d really like to try a keyboard like this

@ifcodingwerenatural

6 ай бұрын

These keyboards are pretty expensive unfortunately. Your best bet would be to order custom PCBs from JLCPCB or the like and source your own parts, or browse around the internet for affordable DIY kits. Even then it can get a little pricey once you add in keyswitches and keycaps.

@shrugalic

6 ай бұрын

Someone in another comment recommended a pre-built Sofle from mechboards in the UK, that should fit the bill. Or maybe a Lily58. Both are very affordable due to black week discounts. I don't have experience with either, but I do with all the 4 keyboards presented in the video. Programmable columnar keyboards with thumb keys are great

@cs-cs4mj

6 ай бұрын

Alright thanks so much for the answers!

I really really really wanted to love my glove 80. I've daily driven it for over a year and despite that, I never could get my wpm back to where it was before the glove80 and I had a pretty high mistype rate. I always felt I had to constantly adjust my hand position which put pressure on my wrists. I kept with it, telling myself I just needed more time with it... but once I realized it had been a year, I came to my senses and realized it just isn't working for me. I really think it's just a me problem. My hands might just not be suited for it. I have large hands but most of the size is in my palms, not my fingers. So just hitting all the normal alpha keys in the keywell just was always a bit of a stretch rather than comfortable. I just recently switched to my old Atreus that I hadn't touched in a very long time and within 30 minutes I was already typing 10wpm faster than the glove80 I had been using daily. So if you have "normal" hands, I bet the glove80 will be great, just for me, flat boards without the keywell seems to be better. I would say, learning a restricted key layout that uses layers, sure it is a bit of a time investment but I've found it to be incredibly rewarding. A 34 key ferris is about as small as I think is reasonable but you also never have to stretch or move your hand, it can stay comfortably put and for me is the key to preventing RSI.

Is the glove80 good for gaming? I’ve heard that the finger well might make things feel odd. What are your thoughts

@darksinge

6 ай бұрын

12:05

@shrugalic

6 ай бұрын

See my other top-level comment on that. In short: all of these can be very comfortable *if* you remap the key bindings in every game.

8:08 I’m confused… can you not use QMK to program the keyboard? The website says the firmware is QMK.

@ifcodingwerenatural

5 ай бұрын

It should be technically possible, but then you're missing out on the Oryx layout editor.

As a gamer and a Data Scientist... I'm at a loss for what to do. I'm so glad that I watched this video and was pretty set on the Glove80, but I can't be bothered with rebinding WASD keys or different layers just for gaming. You probably just saved me a bunch of frustration and about $650 AUD! Thank you!

I own two of the moonlander and this video just made want to consider redoing my config to have a shift ke near my index fingers lol I have been wanting to try the defy just for the multi device connectivity but given i already have a moonlander at home and at work it's been difficult to justify it

@chaitanya-varu

5 ай бұрын

did you find any problem with moonlander?

Which keyboard to mount in the car?

im not a programmer. i mostly game. i use a periloot caravel for my left hand. Its ergonomics are the hands down best because the section of the board where control+shift+tilde+z are located is sunk down and the rest of the board is sloped tilted up to the right. the thumb cluster is also positioned below C+V (below as in under row and also below as in sunken down) allowing for most natural thumb positioning. If i were motivated and smart enuff id figure out a way to make a whole dactyl keeb like the periloot caravel + wireless with bazillon battery life

Reduced keyboards with multiple layers really should have foot switches to toggle between them on-the-fly.

It seems we have pretty much the same RSI issues and while the suggestion I'm about to give is largely useless at this point, hopefully it'll help you find a solution regardless. I also gave up on having a gaming layer on my ErgoDox EZ, but I went a step further and also gave up on mice. If I _have_ to use a mouse, I stick to trackballs. The Logitech MX Ergo is a great all-rounder and for quicker paced games, I recommend the GameBall. However - and here comes the useless part since the device is no longer produced - I've transitioned to using the Steam Controller for practically all my gaming (at least, anything that's not a bit of idle clicking or already heavily gamepad optimised). It is very possible to use this device for first person shooters (and much better on my hands) and, with a bit of setup, for various strategy and RPG games as well. There are still some floating around on eBay and other platforms and if nothing else, the Steam Deck is also an option ;)

I looked at the Advantage 360 wireless and wired version, and I think your recommendation of the non pro version comes with a misunderstanding. Note that unlike the Pro version, the wired version runs proprietary firmware, so your customization will be extremely limited compared to the Pro version.

I really want the voyager, but only two thumb buttons is rough… I mean, I suppose I could 1. Get ride of number row 2. Move letters up 3. Have 4 thumb buttons? Are v/b and n/m comfortable to reach with your thumb? I’m wondering if I should go for the voyager or sofle. ZSA seems like a good company ( I have an ergodox and am happy with it/ customer support), but more thumbkeys and a trackball would be so dope.

@shrugalic

6 ай бұрын

Hmm, unless you desperately need a more compact keyboard for travel (Voyager) or are desperate for something slightly more comfortable (Advantage 360) or more comfortable and wireless (Glove80) the ErgoDox is a great keyboard. Personally my favorite is the Advantage 360, followed by Glove80, followed by ErgoDox or Moonlander, then Voyager. But I don't need wireless nor LEDs nor ZMK, just a comfortable ergonomic keyboard with lots of thumb keys (ideally 3 minimum, 4 are better, 6 is luxurious). For different needs the order would be different. On the Voyager I also thought about giving up the top (number) row at first, because the thumb keys felt better when the home row was further away. But I got used to the default position it in a few days, and would miss the number row a lot. As it is, I missed the bottom row a lot, because I have my arrow keys there on other keyboards. BTW I use the bottom row with fingers not thumbs, as folding the thumb to below the fingers feels awkward to me, I prefer spreading the thumb away from the fingers, having gotten used to Advantage 1 and ErgoDox style thumb keys for 15 years. How do you use the bottom row on your ErgoDox? Thumbs or fingers? The answer should be insightful about the thing you imagine doing with a Voyager.

@thedog5k

6 ай бұрын

​@@shrugalic I couldn't see myself using the Kinesis for too many reasons. I do have a laptop I bring around and really do hate laptop keyboards. I don't bring it out everyday due to my classes, but I will in the near future. I mean, with a keyboard as small as the voyager I really do think that using all the peripheral buttons for numbers and arrows seems wasteful when it could be layered so easily. I do need to feel it to know where I'd be comfortable putting my hand though. On my Ergodox, I CAN use the thumb buttons, but they just feel awkwardly positioned, and its the biggest weakness imo. I use my thumb for the first 2 keys of the bottom row, and don't even bother with the other 3, I set those to shift to my gaming layers. But now that I have this defy, I'm going to have that dedicated for it. I'm looking at a voyager or sofle ( with a trackball) for non gaming purposes.

@shrugalic

6 ай бұрын

@@thedog5k That's fair, for travel purposes a Kinesis 360 is about the worst/bulkiest. The Glove with case is a little better. The Moonlander is actually only slightly larger in its transport pouch than the Voyager and a lot less compromised key-wise. But do what feels best to you ofc. All 4 keyboards are fantastic, with their own strengths and weaknesses. The Sofle or Lily58 seem a reasonable and cheaper alternative to the Voyager, if you can cope with with the lower amount of thumb keys any of these have. The Voyager still has enough keys that one extra layer was enough for me, but I did miss a few keys on the top level, such as delete and arrow keys. And it does pretty much enforce finding a solution for all the modifiers, be it home row mods or callum style mods or .... If you're fine with going that route then it (or a similar one) should be a great choice.

@shrugalic

6 ай бұрын

@@thedog5k PS: since you do use your thumb for the first 2 keys on the bottom row, I should think that a Voyager/Sofle/Lily58 or similar should work fine for you. Especially since you don't seem to like spreading your thumb out on the ErgoDox.

@shrugalic

6 ай бұрын

@@thedog5k PPS: if you don't mind building your own keyboard, the Dactyl Manuform or Charybdis seem rather intriguing as well. Personally I soldered many an ErgoDox, but these days I don't mind buying ready to go keebs either. ;)

That 4th reason for wanting a keyboard reached into my soul. damn