The fact the rules change completely every 2-3 months is super infuriating and a massive deterrent

@thequestbro

Жыл бұрын

There is literally nothing stopping you from playing off the codex. Or whatever rules you set up with your opponent.

That game mat really tied the room together, man. My Dad was involved in very early UK wargaming (back in the 50s). Some of his favourite games were acting as a moderator for games played by army officers. The officers commanding each side would be in separate rooms, and the actual game table would be in a third. The players had to rely on reports from the moderators, and use maps to direct their forces. In the grim dark present of the past there was only fog of war.

@nerdfatha

Жыл бұрын

That sounds absolutely fascinating!

@AAhmou

Жыл бұрын

Wow, a wargame emulating Fog of War sounds like the best idea I have ever read.

@nadinabbott3991

Жыл бұрын

This style of gaming is still used for historical games, and indeed at war colleges. It’s a good way to train the mind of young officers.

@luketfer

Жыл бұрын

The cool thing is this wasn't just done as a 'for fun' thing, it was actually done during the war to train Officers and show how command could break down and how important communication was. IIRC there's a story of 'the Office Girls' (the women who moved units around on the table) at one such training facility who had gotten REALLY good at it because they were involved in every game and had picked up on a lot of tactics and such just through being there whilst also playing it during their off hours for fun. So for to teach a particularly arrogant Officer in training a lesson one of the higher ups would pitch them against 'the Girls' without them knowing, who would, invaribly, trounce them because they were a well coordinated team who knew how to communicate quickly and efficiently and then reveal to the Officer in training just who he had been beaten by and explain to them that all the talk and bravado in the world doesn't matter, it's the *doing* and the knowledge that matters.

I Totally get this. I played my first Lion Ranpant game this week. Was told to “rock up With what I have”. Zero crunchiness. One roll in combat - done. No armor roll, piercing roll, first aid roll, wound roll, mechanic turning every seventh three into a five but only on a Wednesday ….. etc. simple but balanced, still allowed for tweaking of troop types, we still had some great tense moments and felt we had played through an epic narritive. Games don’t have to be crunchy to have depth and excitement.

@MW-xi9oy

Жыл бұрын

exactly....Xenos Rampant is a great one to try with any sci fi minis too!

As someone who is new to mini painting and games workshop stuff, I was a bit lost trying to find my ‘thing’. I bought some sigmar stuff, bought leagues of votann, bought some kill team and then I discovered necromunda and fell in love. I’ve bought every gang and am slowly painting my way through (again, I’m new to it so still learning) but I have to agree: it’s super rules heavy and confusing, I have zero idea how to play and like you doubt I ever will actually get to play it. Real shame as the lore is incredible.

@lordnovas

Жыл бұрын

OPR makes a Necro gang warfare style game. You could play a much smoother game, using the same lore and minis.

@Ironsides1985

Жыл бұрын

Try out One Page Rules my dude. It’s free and I play it with my friends all the time.

@ElpredatorGYRO

Жыл бұрын

So I guess they sold you different stuff, marketing worked ?

@bremer1701

Жыл бұрын

I suggest you use the rules from onepagerules then. It is way easier but you can keep the lore ;)

@euansmith3699

Жыл бұрын

With such a wide selection of minis, you'll be able to kitbash some interesting stuff 😄👍 Stormcast Eternals can make some great ornate Space Marines.

Speaking of OPR and Grimdark Future Firefight they do have a rules extension for Necromunda style play called Gang Wars. It uses the same basic rules as GFF but adds things for narrative play, lets you play the gangs based on their data sheets and you can even make gangs from the other armies like the Battle Brothers, Rats, and Elves to give examples as any faction that has a firefight codex is available to be a gang

@tabletopminions

Жыл бұрын

Indeed - I’m planning on checking it out. Thanks for watching!

@Bluecho4

Жыл бұрын

It's honestly weird that GW keeps their regular 40K stuff and their Necromunda stuff segregated into different rulesets. Imagine if, in the middle of your gang war, a player could just show up with their squad of Sisters of Battle or Drukhari. Or imagine if you could run a Cawdor or Orlock gang as a Kill Team. Or imagine if you could run a gang as a unit in 40K. Aside from that last bit, you don't need to imagine it. You can just do it, in Grimdark Future: Firefight. There's no arbitrary division.

@crimson_oracle

Жыл бұрын

@@Bluecho4 the problem with that is most necromunda players specifically don’t want 40K tier power level stuff in the game, if you go into your average Necromunda group and ask about say, stating out a space marine, 90% of the responses will be “go play a different game, Necromunda is supposed to be filthy humans shanking each other with rusty knives”

@crowanon3625

Жыл бұрын

@@crimson_oracle Genestealer Cults get's a nice inclusion, as it leans into the filthy rabble aspect of what appears to be just like any other gang based around really effective mining, except they keep talking about how their beloved 4 armed leader is better than the false emperor....

@crimson_oracle

Жыл бұрын

@@crowanon3625 chaos cultists too, basically anyone who is a total scrub is welcome on Munda lol

A simple base game with more advanced rules you can add on later is the ticket to get me playing.

@RileyGein

Жыл бұрын

OnePageRules

@marshalwiley3124

Жыл бұрын

You should check out Wiley Games' Galactic Heroes. Super simple core rules with plenty of variation. Although it's not needed to play, they just came out with a supplement for the 40K setting, making it as easy as a drag and drop for just about anything unit you can think of.

@Asytra

Жыл бұрын

That's precisely how Battletech and One Page Rules does it. Both are infinitely more affordable too!

@xdude736

Жыл бұрын

FOr fantasy, Oathmark is the way to go if a solid core with good expansion is what you are looking for.

The issue of the rules being spread out between multiple books and PDFs applies to every GW game. I play Kill Team and it drives me nuts that if you buy a brand new box set like Into the Dark, the book is already out of date and you need the latest dataslate to know the rules. They rush things out without taking time to play test and end up selling rule books that are obsolete on the day they release.

Completely agree. I want to love Necromunda. I played a campaign recently at my local wargaming club but I just couldn't get on with the rules and the books. It's not just that there's so many rules and that they're spread across far too many books, it's that they're badly written, badly balanced, and sometimes contradict each other. It's especially frustrating as GW can do simple - Warcry is proof of that.

@marshalwiley3124

Жыл бұрын

You should check out Wiley Games' Galactic Heroes. Wiley Games makes all their rules to be easy to play and fast to pick up while still retaining those cinematic moments where anything can happen. Core rules with plenty of variability. You can create your own squads from the mini's you own or pick up a supplement for an easy drag an drop. They just launched their new supplement for the 40K setting and by popular demand are working on adding necromunda gangs as well as the new Leagues of Votunn faction.

Our last game of Necromunda was three players and lasted FIVE hours. We then switched to One Page Rules (Gang Wars). What a nice change of pace! 40-50 minutes for a game, max.

@kenupton4084

Жыл бұрын

Oh God, I remember playing multiplayer games of Mordheim. You could order a pizza, have it delivered, eat it, use the bathroom and maybe shop for a few new models by the time your turn came around again.

@crimson_oracle

Жыл бұрын

It does kinda come down to what you want out of the game, to me OPR Gang Wars removes all the things that make Necromunda a game I would play, as all the extra rules that take time, are the cinematic elements that make Necromunda a game worth playing to me. But that’s why options exist after all

@zunjin

Жыл бұрын

@@crimson_oraclethis is why I like necromunda

It's one of the reasons why I keep coming back to Lord of the Rings. It doesn't really change that much between the editions. And this edition is 6 years nearly now.

@euansmith3699

Жыл бұрын

It has a great turn sequence too; something that I'd like to see in 40k.

@TrippyTheShroom

Жыл бұрын

MESBG is amazing, a lot of the miniatures desperately need updating but that ruleset is chef's kiss

@majkus

Жыл бұрын

I have not gotten into the hobby (I'm primarily a boardgamer) but I happen to have a copy of the 20+-year old original Fellowship of the Ring box set that I received at the time. Looking at the rulebook, it certainly appears to me to describe substantially the same game that the current rulebooks provide, judging from recent tutorials, although of course some details and stats have doubtless changed. That's pretty amazing, and a tribute to Mr. Priestly's original design (I note that that rulebook was written in a very inviting style for beginners, though as a reference document it is not the best).

@ThomasGallinari

Жыл бұрын

A friend of mine will teach me soon, I've heard a lot of good things about this game, can't wait

@luluspargo867

Жыл бұрын

LotR has always been their best rule system! 😎 They do threaten to 40k it a bit with a few too many special rules but it’s still so good and effective.

Wow, you nailed it on this one. I know I get massively overwhelmed if games are too crunchy. I love a game I can play without looking up rules. Every time I have to open the book it just takes me out of the immersion.

We can always trust GW to release a £200 expansion to a game that'll be out of date in 6 months time. What's worse is this'll hit new players hardest.

@Annihilo

Жыл бұрын

I’m barely getting back into it and haven’t learned all the new rules. Watch hours of KZread content and it’s still soooo much to learn. I’m over it and moving to OPR and printing my own minis

@Dimkadamecha

Жыл бұрын

Yeap, it's too much rotation with the rules. Back in 2nd and 3rd Ed. you just learned the rules and when just added some new tweaks through newcoming editions. Now we have to learn new rules each week, in a new book and that's awful - no games, only reading through that stockpile of trash just to be in touch with the current ruleset. To hell with it! :(

Having played my first miniature wargame before video game simulations were a thing, I’m used to crunchy rules. (I’m even older than Atom!) Back in those days, serious simulation games were done with cardboard and hex. Most importantly, the rules were VERY organized. Often written in the “Case System”, they were numbered like federal regulations. When an expansion came out, they would supply you with pages to replace the old pages which had often started with blank pages just in case. Sometimes a binder was supplied and/or pages were pre punched. What I’m not used to is multiple books and little organization being released in short time periods. Crunchy does not mix well with poorly organized.

@frederickrose3967

Жыл бұрын

precisely!

Rules bloat totally out of control with GW at the moment I like to dip in and out of different 40k armies. I've found this year that I need to just stick to the one in order to remember everything I need to. Boarding action seems somewhat simpler so I'm hoping that's a sign of where they are heading with 10th

@KrullMaestaren

Жыл бұрын

I read the rules fo Warcry and immediately understood them, maybe 40K could take lessons and find a middle ground? Heard Horus Heresy rules are better but haven't had a chance to read those rules yet. Just have to shake my head at times when I play DA or DG in 40k because I often forget rules and stuff that I could use for that army, at that time... but I could instantly memorize warcry... one is a rulebook and one is a army codex :D

@spazzfraggison

Жыл бұрын

Yeah i'm a person who likes to know how to "play the game" like, the whole game. Its impossible at this point without taking a week off work once every 6 months to re read 40 books and cross reference updates and new releases. Options are good and so are neat little mechanics but they've gone way overboard.

@thealldayspecial

Жыл бұрын

@@KrullMaestaren I went so many games with new Dark Eldar without realizing I was allowed to do more never ending bs.

Necromunda should be a single book. It was before, and it still should be. I have Eschers, but I'll use them with my classic Necromunda rulebook. You touched on an important point, Don Featherstone (I'm sure you've read some of his work) made the point that the more simulation you have, the less game you will have, and conversely the less simulation, the more game you will have. It goes back to granularity, which I know you've discussed in an earlier video >>>------> p'chow (if I could find it in thousands of hours). I have rules that I'm working on, I am aiming for quick play, low granularity, and avoiding crunchy and exceptional rules that slow down play.

@bionicgeekgrrl

Жыл бұрын

To some extent you can do that for necromunda and if you have a group, you just need the core rules and each player gets the book for their gang. It gets more complicated when you start getting into hangers on etc though, so if you ignore those you can make it much simpler. However I agree, at very least they should do a new edition at some point in the manner of how they have done horus heresy, one big rule book and then a couple of books for gangs and an optional one for Ash wastes etc. Though I think Ash wastes should be its own separate game really. Interesting factoid, gorkamorka originally was supposed to be an addon for necromunda. I could see that working with the Ash wastes rules being popular. Either way, necromunda gets some of the best models gw(and fw) makes.

@JPGotrokkits

Жыл бұрын

@@bionicgeekgrrl I have the old book that gives the gangs in it, and tells you everything you need to know. This new way of splitting up rules (gang wars books) is counterproductive. Models make GW more money than the books, they would sell more models if people weren't expected to go on a paper-chase to have the attendant rules, rules that are musts for the game to work correctly. I happen to have Gorkamorka and Digganob in my collection. Digganob being an expansion to Gorkamorka, did not require you to have Digganob in order to play Gorkamorka. GW is installing rules in expansions which should have been in the core book to begin with.

This is why I moved to Mantic and play firefight or Kings of War. Both do exactly what you want and thier metaphor is, we make simple games but are very tactical, if your looking at a book every turn , it's no longer fun. Couldn't recommend them enough to be honest

A MAJOR benefit to GW would be that less crunchy games are easier for new players. Right now it’s so hard to get into 40k because there’s so much to learn. A simplified version would really make that easier

I started collecting 40k about 3 weeks before first lockdown, so by the time things started moving again socially I had a sizeable force of Iron Hands. Then I tried to learn the game and just got so turned off by the 72 pages of stratagems and 17 objectives and all the other stuff... I play Kings of War now and it's been a breeze to learn that. I use my marines for GDF.

I've really been enjoying the new Boarding Actions rule set for 40k. Keeps the core rules, so if you already play it's not a big jump like with Kill Team, but significantly limits unit options and extra rules (stratagems, warlord traits, etc.) The biggest issue with it is the terrain, but you can honestly mock up your own pretty easily, even just using graph paper.

@SpooKimi

Жыл бұрын

the new boarding actions looks really fun to play, not being overloaded by stratagems, traits, etc is just nice. ive seen 3 batreps now and it looks so much fun. but also the game doesn't feel decided by turn 1 the first 2 turns mainly feel like units moving which is a nice change ^^

100% agree with you here. The changes from AOS 2nd ed to 3rd ed added a whole bunch of extra mechanics and stuff that are just superfluous to the "roll dice - have fun" core to the game. Almost everyone I know doesn't use them because they're more complex, and less fun

@ShadowdragonYamiryu

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely. I've barely played AOS 3rd cause I don't like the changes. Warcry and OPR: Age of Fantasy have been my games as of late and putting to use all my fantasy figures.

@theDackjanielz

Жыл бұрын

Completely agreed....1st ED was the bare bones, 2nd Polished those bones, then 3rd just went AWOL and added tons of nonsense that never needed to exist. The rule book went from 16 pages to 360! - This game was aimed directly for casual players and apparently that was forgotten? I hear the player count is less than ever. Then they took away those great Start collecting kits for fairly good prices while also removing all the rules / warscrolls available for free online....... What did they expect was going to happen here exactly?

@crimson_oracle

Жыл бұрын

Honestly, I preferred AoS 1st Ed, 2nd added all the command point stuff that made 40K unplayable for me, plus took the game from one where you picked the models that made sense for your story to an army book based game like that kinda defeated the point of what made AoS great. Was a major bummer. The switching to physical only books and killing the incredible app for a new paywalled one is something I’ll never forgive them for

@theDackjanielz

Жыл бұрын

@@crimson_oracle If we had 1st ed ruleset around again i would fully cheer and support it.

Much like yourself, Necromunda and hive life has always been my favourite facet of GW's 40K universe. I got into Necromunda as a teen when it launched in '95, played the curated living rule set from the early 2000's and now the new N17 version and it never ceases to amaze me how GW surreptitious hide rules across multiple house books to get you to spend on material you would otherwise never need and how unnecessarily bloated the source books for the extra rules have become. I actually enjoy a little bit of crunch, but having that squared away under an optional advanced mechanics appendix and condensing the rules set back into a single tome would make the game far more accessible

@euansmith3699

Жыл бұрын

Necromunda is great; however, I also like the background from Inquisitor too (the rules are too faffy for me).

I think Necromunda actually is what your describing Uncle Adam, almost all the books are optional rules (black market/criminality rules in book of judgement, vehicles in book of the outlands, extra psychic rules in the outcast) you can basically run necromunda with the main rulebook and your gang list and that's it. Everything else is an expansion like a D&D additional module (for a campaign) or additional rules to bolt on.

@Ziforigin

Жыл бұрын

Well yes, but actually no. Necromunda is not tested and has a lot of unbalanced options, missions are sometimes heavily in a favor of one team and this is not mentioned anywhere in description. So basically to play necromunda you not only need a basic rule book and your gang's "codex", you also need a very experienced arbitrator to look after the game. Remember that Gang Wars (outdated) still have missions you won't find anywhere else. Munda has about 19-20 books so far with, just like the uncle said, core rule books being includede only in starter sets, which are expensive. My first campaign (we played in a small group without an arbitrator) was really hilarious, because 2 of us was coming up with crazy and broken shenanigans every game, while other players were brutally beaten. Also munda requires you to have basic rulebook, your codex and at least briefly read all other enemies codexes to understand what you are playing against (i'm looking at you nacht-ghuls). The last version of a forbidden necromunda compilation tome was about 500 page, with 400 being mostly campaign stuff. As we all know GW will never release a core rule book with all rules, full hanger ons and weapons list. I, however, dream for the time than miniature games will release have their rules digitized and updated on a fly.

My first experience with Warhammer many years ago was at an acquaintance's place, he had multiple armies, multiple dedicated fully built terrain tables in his dedicated gaming room... we spent more time reading the rules every turn than actually playing the game. So, yeah, I didn't continue playing Warhammer. During the pandemic lockdowns and old high school buddy started texting me showing off his new hobby, painting Star Wars minis for Legion. Once things eased up for a bit and I was finally comfortable, I went over to play a game. I'm sure we overlooked a couple of the more complex rules, but it was fun, and after getting home that night I ordered my first Legion army for $75. Having Warhammer as the 800lbs gorilla of this hobby, I feel, is not helping in terms of attracting new players.

I am stunned how difficult GW makes these games to play. I’m a relatively smart guy and have money to burn on hobbies but man it is so wild. To get all the rules together I’ve got to look at dozens of places and they’ll change every two months. I’ve basically given up on playing the games.

Agree with this so much. It’s all just too overwhelming. Especially for players, who can’t play every week. And games workshop is not the only one doing this.

Some of the original Tabletop war games were simulation games that took 2-3 days to complete. They involved tracking the individual ration consumption of each soldier.

@ash_durant6071

Жыл бұрын

Avalon Hill games I suspect.?

@crossmr

Жыл бұрын

@@ash_durant6071 The campaign for North Africa, I confused it with another game. A full game apparently takes 1500 hours to complete.

@ew1258

Жыл бұрын

True but hardly anyone plays those. Games went to shorter more manageable systems. So I guess they are circling back around. As a well known Sith Lord would say, the circle is now complete

I really hope they simplify 10E 40K. As someone returning from third edition, there’s just too much to memorize

@euansmith3699

Жыл бұрын

Wouldn't it be great if the 10e release was two squads of space marines, 20 orks, 40 gretchen, rules, cardboard terrain and whipy sticks? 😉 That 2e box was a great starter.

@KrullMaestaren

Жыл бұрын

@@euansmith3699 really miss that cheap paper terrain and Mordheim perfected it :)

@jayteegamble

Жыл бұрын

@@euansmith3699 5tth edition was also Orks vs Space Marines. It was my Christmas present.

@euansmith3699

Жыл бұрын

@@jayteegamble That was the source of my vast wind of Deffkoptaz 😄 ... Oh, and all of my Dreadnoughts.

I'm just getting started with giving modern Necormunda a go (played the original back in the 90's). Agree that there's a lot to process when starting, but what I'm beginning to understand is that it's almost closer to D&D than 40k. So that means it benefits from being more fun, flexible and narrative led than the 40k/Kill Team. It seems to also benefit from an Arbitrator (i.e. a DM), and some of the books are kind of focussed towards them. Having said that, it does seem a nonsense that there is more than one 'basic' rulebook (Ash Wastes and Hive War have different ones, not sure if the standalone book also differs). EDIT: Alternatively, all the rules for original Necromunda are available as a download from Yaktribe - it's still a bit crunchy, but less so, plus it's free 👍🏼

@crimson_oracle

Жыл бұрын

Couldn’t agree more, Munda is much closer to D&D, most of the extra rules are swap in and out, and at core the game is actually fairly simple it just has lots of extra stuff you can add. Honestly, for a long time I’ve wanted something like Blitz Bowl that combines 2 half gang sprues, the rulebook; and the gang raid rules they published in White Dwarf December 2019, which are like 2-5 models per side, just champions gangers and juves. Would be a good starter game without trying to limit complexity in the actual rules just limiting the number of models

I’ve seen this in my primary hobby, roleplaying games: companies add complexity with each new addition, trying to add something to the proven formula of each game, but in the wrong way. I’ve seen it with D&D (I now play a super-light version called ShadowDark), and with Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying (I now use Warlock!- an ultra rules light version. WFRP 4e is a bloat-fest), and I see it in war games as well, as you so eloquently pointed out. I find alternatives that are rules light. I don’t know if this will change anytime soon, but I hope it does. When you have to rules-reference continuously, the joy of the game disappears fast.

Battletech is a great example of having a super crunchy advanced rules system, but also a rule set for people who want a smoother, faster game.

This is why me and my friends picked up Deadzone. Only need one printout maybe two tops for keywords, games are fast, snappy and fun. Also extremely easy to teach and get others into since you don't need 5 books, supplements and a lv5 judge on speed dial to play a game. GW has just become a boutique model company for most of us these days between OPR, Mantic, and Wyrd offering so much more at a much more accessible level.

I used to be a playtester for Necromunda (before they canned all US playtesters) and other specialist games, and I've run 4 full campaigns with newsletters and all that. For me it is worth it because of how over the top and fun it is when everyone knows the rules. That being said, most people only have the slightest grasp of the rules and all their many interactions (how many times have you asked someone to remember to roll their firepower dice?). It's made even worse since the unofficial compendium rulebook is now well over 1,000 pages. This game is in serious need of an easy to play mode that helps on-ramp new players. I would think pre-configured loadouts and skills would be part of that too because the weekly 'homework' of dealing with leveling up, buying equipment, working territories, etc. is quite off-putting and the main reason for campaign attrition. This game also could use a badass app like many we see in board games that would help you walk through the phases of the turn and keep track of all your stuff in one place.

@crimson_oracle

Жыл бұрын

The lack of an app for Necromunda is such a glaring hole, having to look through several epubs to find a weapon trait or such is annoying as hell. I’d write the damn thing myself if it wouldn’t get copyright struck immediately. Drives me crazy!

I think its good its crunchy. I think GW has probably something for every one. Warcry is super simple, Kill Team in a bit more advanced and Necromunda is crunchy. I play WC and Necromunda for both reasons.

@ric1194

Жыл бұрын

But what if you want to play a simple game of necromunda? I can't stand any of GW high fantasy since old world so I only play Middle earth. But I play space combat, so why shouldn't I be able to play a simple game of necromunda? You see your logic only works it its only one game GW does, not the 6 plus they have all at different levels because alot of people go after what looks cool and lore first.

@mykolaborysko5651

Жыл бұрын

@@ric1194 why GW should do something that you want? There is a game system. You like it - you buy it. If you don't like rules - system is not made for you. Don't try to change systems just because you want to do it

@arielsanchez465

Жыл бұрын

@@mykolaborysko5651 it's not just him, there are a LOT of people in the same boat. Most businesses try to satisfy their customers needs and then there's GW.

@mykolaborysko5651

Жыл бұрын

@@arielsanchez465 why GW should? You don't like rules of necromunda you don't buy it. That's it. If GW continues to sell Necromunda as it is then it is profitable. Why do they need to change it?

@arielsanchez465

Жыл бұрын

@@mykolaborysko5651 eh...because it would sell more?

If you do change your mind, we're in the GB area and starting a narrative campaign for Necromunda soon. We share all the books as needed and try to simplify where possible, no cards for example, but you are welcome to join us if you want.

100% agree with you GW makes changes to their game rukes so fast I don't even get a chance to learn them before a new set is released through White Dwarf, a new codex of some GT update. Very frustrating for Warhammer 40k, KillTeam, ect.

I completely agree with you here, Uncle Atom. I got heavily into Necromunda a few years back shortly after the new version came out (I played the old version in the 90s too). I eventually ended up tapping out of that game because it felt like there was too much to keep up with: different big box releases would have updated versions of the rules, there was books containing some rules that everyone could make use of and some new gangs, and then books for specific gangs. It all felt like far too much to keep track of so I just ended up completely losing interest in it. I like my games to be one main rulebook which has everything I need to play, including army lists, and then maybe a supplemental expansion which adds more rules, more expansions etc.

They never will though. I've learned with mini gaming that *all* of us buy more than we will ever paint, let alone game with. So at a certain point, you have to look in the mirror and decide what your hobby is, and learn to work within that paradigm. I realized that I would likely not be playing much, if ever going forward, and that when I do, it will likely be skirmish games. So I had to let the "big army" games go. I still have optimism that I can try some casual Epic Black Powder or Bolt Action, so I've kept the stuff from those two that I like, but I've sold or am selling off the rest of my army games. It helps to step back and do a personal mental "hobby inventory" every now and then!

Completely agreed. I love GW models, but I work full time and have a family. My time is limited and spending four hours on just one game doesn’t seem doable to me. Like you I was attracted to Necromunda - models, lore, terrain are all great! - but it’s just so complicated. I watched a few battle reports and just knew I would never be able to spend the amount of time that is required for it.

@CirroStratus

Жыл бұрын

You can try new Kill Team :). Personally I wouldn't call it crunchy. Admittedly visibility rules are a bit convoluted initially but they get intuitive after two or three games. Other than that rules are rather straightforward, however I find the game deeply tactical and satisfying. Once you get it going game time is around 1.5h. Personally I like it uses fixed teams (there's still some room for roster personalization, depending on faction), because it means after painting somewhere between 6 to 15 models the team is complete. As someone who also have full time job and small kids I can certainly appreciate that :D.

With all the rules changes and the constant treadmill, we went to one page rules. It plays well, it’s fun, it’s simple

My answer is the same as always: make your own rules! The only time you have to worry about the rules is if you are playing in a tournament. In any other setting, do what you want. It shouldn't be a hindrance to your enjoying the hobby.

I'm a wargaming noobie. I never really liked the idea of 40k because it seems overwhelming (rules, lore, models, price etc). To ease myself into the hobby (and to make use of my eclectic collection of models) I tried out Space Weirdos. Lovin' it. Grimdark Future Firefight is next on my tasting plate. The AI rules make it useful when I can't get anyone to play against.

I’m more a model, painter, and diorama/story depiction hobbyist. Board games for me was my dad and I as a kid playing a game of Tactics II and Gettysburg, but those games were more or less all cardboard squares with identifying markers of different units and their functions. It looked simple but it made you think and try out how to out maneuver and out fox the other player, much like the classic WWII simulation game where one player basically was a US Destroyer and the other player was a U Boat - and there was rules and tactics to figure out how to hunt or avoid the other in ship to ship combat on a playing board. There is something to be said for simplistic gaming, kind of like a traditional game of Risk. The thing is, is that the table top world should stick to its own Table Top format and not really attempt to try and be like video games because the functionality and user interfaces are so widely different that to simulate the same experience would cause your board game to have too many moving parts to accomplish too little for the effort put into it. In a video game, I throw the grenade, it bounces off a wall, blows up another player and that is that, instant action and a fluid end. In a table top, there’s dice rolls, calculations, and too much of a break from the escape experience that it halts the fun. Two diff mediums that are meant for different things - this is like trying to compare snow boarding vs skiing and even though they both require snow and a slanted surface, they aren’t the same and never should be treated as such.

Simulationist design is great when a computer takes care of all the background math. At the table, simplicity of design is so much nicer.

I also feel like that while 40k has a lot of rules, it's crunchy in an unejoyable crunch. It's not paying attention vehicle facing or dealing with critical hits. It's trying to just keep track of bunch of abstracted combos and rules, that there's a lot of. Too each their own...

You have hit the nail right on the head, I've struggled to enjoy Star Wars Legion for the year. So today son-in-law and I tried Grimdark Future Fire Fight for the first time today and what a breath of fresh air it was. I only know about these rule by watching your videos so thank you Uncle and thank you OPR great stuff. Cheers

I agree that things have gotten way too rule heavy with no other option. I still have my 1998 Warhammer40k rulebook where all the basic rules for all the different factions were in this around 280 page book. This included how to build your own terrain and kitbash vehicles plus blast,flamer and shooting markers. It also had a quick painting guide for your models. They also had Photo Copy permitted data sheets to keep track of your army's info and points. Smaller armies were played and easier to track this way. If you wanted more lore on a specific group say Dark Angels or Eldar ect you bought the separate codex book for their history and lore but usually only included 3-4 specific to this groups special rules. That way you could have a generic Space Marine group or a specific one and still play easily with only a few special rules added to the basics to track. It was simply easier to play and get new players to learn. As you say have a basic game with easier rules with various levels of optional play if people want them. Keep the dice rolls to a minimum and movements and shooting simple. As you stated all the extra rules just makes each sides turns take too long with larger point armies. Most potential new players will just get bored and hesitant to start if you need to spend close to a $ 1000 USD just to play. A smaller 500 point game with just a squad and leader like Boarding action or Kill Team for a game would be more affordable and with more basic rules more of a draw for new players.

I've been rereading 40k third edition which was my entrance point to the game. it certainly seems like the last time the game had a consistent sense of scale. I really think 40k struggles to maintain an identity as a game when it tries to maintain a skirmish rules engine for everything from combat patrols to apocalypse games.it could do with a full age of sigmar style redesign.

it reminded me my Grandma talking about a good Miso soup. Once, Grandma taught me How to. "with 4+ ingredients. The taste gets ruined". "with 3 ? may work only if cooked by a skilled Chef". "with 2 , it is the best Miso soup, an average family person can cook". 　　Today, GW releasing a soup with 1K of ingredients. We find it is very Nutritious, but... tastes awful. 😖 ( plus expensive).

You answered your own question…every Necromunda book is “optional “. Could have a great experience with just one book.

That’s a really good point you make about abstraction in wargaming - it’s a balance I suppose isn’t it, between abstraction and immersion (in that it perhaps needs to be a simulation *to a degree* in order to give it the credibility to make the game immersive)?

Necromundea is definitely the most "old school" games workshop game on the market, part of why I love it honestly, in terms of core needed rules you basically need the trade hub pdf the core rule book (you don't need the one the ash waste box that's just a simplified version of the core rules and some content that's also available in the ash wastes book if you want ash wastes) and the rules for your gang of choice (the house of X books mostly) then there's other supplement stuff that add new options and scenarios that can largely be ignored

I really enjoy the complex nature of necromunda and 2nd edition 40k because the complexity and resulting randomised outcomes create a narrative you can't replicate without the rules being so complex. I find modern 40k and kill team as dull as dish water. Having 50 hand painted minis killed during turn 1 isnt fun, I'm looking at you 40k!

I got into Warhammer with Age of Sigmar because it was 4 pages of rules. True most of the rules got moved to the character profiles but the core rules were 4 pages. Easy to get into and easy to start playing. I still use those original rules to introduce new players to the game. I have 6 AoS armies to use and usually start off with the Start Collecting war scrolls. It's perfect.

40K especially has started to feel like a wombo-combo deck building game with miniatures over a tactical war game. It's about how you layer multiple warlord traits, relics, and dozens of stratagems for knock out blows. The mental load is completely overwhelming (I hope you read this James :P )

Warcry was such a shocking breath of fresh air, it left me utterly bewildered and asking the question of "Why cant all of Warhammer just be this easy?" Setting up the scenery alone is a whole game of enjoyment, and the fact that i never made rules mistakes meant i could just simply PLAY the game and ENJOY it. Despite the lack of crunch which some have complained about i actually found the experience strangely cinematic despite how simplistic it all is....Done like 50+ games now :D Would love to see a Warcry version of 40k or a combat patrol version of AOS, or even the ability to try Necromunda!

Great video as always. As a guy about to crack into my Kill Team Into the Dark box its actually really cool to know about the alternative rule sets for Kill Team and 40k, very excited to try them.

This might be the most insightful take you've done yet. Spot on, man. Should be used as a primer for new game devs.

You hit the nail on the head with this. I first started playing 40k in 4th and 5th Ed and just rejoined after a decade break and the rules bloat is OVERWHELMING. Fortunately, I've been playing games with very welcoming players helping me with the learning curve, but it's staggeringly complicated. That plus GW's constant balancing PDF updates means I never feel up to speed with the rules. I would love a simplified, basic rules version of 40k that let's me play without Command Points, Stratagems and so on. I'd play more games, be more comfortable using more of my models at once, and honestly be more likely to buy more products as I build up my confidence. The way the game is now? I wouldn't actually recommend this hobby to a curious gamer due to how complicated it is despite how much I love the lore and setting. I'm really hoping that 10th Ed is streamlined or comes with both basic and advanced game modes like you laid out.

As someone who returned to the hobby on the cusp of the 9th.. i instantly realised they had nailed it with the 8th. It was simple, fun, and watching bat reps you saw how fast it can be played. As Atom says, 9th is not for me. In fact, quite happy to hang out with the 8th, and looking forward to trying OPG Grimdark firefight. GW, here's revolutionary idea: bring back the previous ver, with new lore / characters / units. Wouldn't that be crazy?

Was just talking with buddies about "what level of complexity do you want in your games"... or basically, do you want one real complex game, 3-5 medium complex games, or 8+ simple games... Can you sit down and play a game with a 5 minute prep... or do you want to spend 4-8 hours prepping for a game, watching videos, and talking shop on the internet before you play your games... It is something we should as gamers probably talk about more... "lifestyle games" vs beer and pretzen and where do you see yourself?

Necromunda 1995 FTW. The old school version is STILL the best.

I completely agree. I really enjoyed 5th edition because it was so straightforward. You could play a whole game with a rulebook and a codex; you had a fairly good idea what your opponents weapons, rules, and units could do; and it wasn’t hard to learn or teach. I quit Warhammer 40k in 7th edition as it grew so bloated and crazy, and I haven’t been tempted to return as the games I have seen are so heavy on extra nonsense. I love Warcry because of how easy it is to play a casual game, and I really hope they don’t overload it.

I only gained an interest in Warhammer because I wanted to paint my board game miniatures. Anyone who sees the hobby fresh has A LOT to be willing to take on. You have to get specific tools for assembling, painting, and even playing. Even before that you need to decide which army you want to invest hundreds of dollars in to. Not to mention learning the rules of the game and specific rules for your faction and how they interact with your opponent. It's A LOT to ask someone to take on.

I agree 100%. I tried to get into Kill Team so watched a battle report, it was 15 minutes before they even started the game after going through all the rules/missions/stratagems etc. Just seems to be modern GW rules writing.

As someone who has been involved in miniature wargaming since the late sixties, the general trend has been the smaller the figure count the more complex the rules. Cases in point and early 70s pair, WWII which was a company level game so about 200 figures and Tractics an 8 to 12 figure ruleset. WWII rules consisted of a single booklet, a two-page introduction 12 pages of the arms and equipment and of course number of troops and their organization for all the main combatants one page of shooting rules, one page of movement rules, one page of morale rules and 13 pages of scenarios. For a total size of 40 pages. Tractics however was two books the core rules in a 98 page rulebook. And a supplementary 60-page rulebook.

I loved the AoS release back in 2015 because it was simple, cinematic and quick paced. For me, a perfect way to play with toy soldiers in GW setting I love. The mass of rules and layers of extra ‘stuff’ over the years has brought me back to how I felt about the older versions of the game and is keeping me away from actually playing. Yes, we can play how we want but we’re also held hostage by the maze of rules if we want to engage in the community aspects like tournaments and events. I adore the 40k lore but not remotely interested in playing. The investment required is madness! I play frostgrave, Oathmark and smaller Indy games like Reign in Hell now. Where we can enjoy the experience of playing as well as the actual game itself.

Completely agree. Buddy and I are getting into Kill Team and the rules left us scratching our heads. The line of sights rules are bizarre, way overcomplicated. It's a decent game but a squad skirmish really shouldn't be as complicated as it is

@CirroStratus

Жыл бұрын

Or should they? :) I'd argue the game benefits from how visibility rules work in the long term. They are quite bizarre after just reading the rules, but after trying it in practice several times it starts to make sense and I'd dare to say it gets intuitive. The resulting gameplay is quite unique and deeply tactical. Ultimately to each their own, but there is a point in rules working how they do and I believe btw KT is rather successful for a reason :).

Totally agree. There is a line where it get a little to "crunchy." I enjoy some complexity but there is a point where it kind of sucks the fun out of it.

I am in exactly the same place. I have a complex day job and I game for fun and to relax. Too many rules and marathon sessions are just mental overhead I don’t need in my off time. I use the models with several Indy game rulesets that allow you to just get on with the game without getting bogged down in the rules.

When I got back into the hobby I initially gravitated to 40k, as I played 2nd Ed back in the day. However, the cognative load was overwhelming. I recently played AoS for the first time and it's night and day. However, the other challenge I've experienced is a bit of snootiness around simpler games such as Warcry and struggled to find opponents in the club scene. It seems to cascade as well: 40k players snooty at AoS and AoS snooty as Warcry etc.

I started the miniature painting/wargaming hobby in 2020, and honestly the large amount of rules and complications really kept my interested. I like having all to think about all that stuff, I like the way that the games interact. I think there is definitely an audience of people like me who enjoy the crunch, but I totally understand the difficulty that people can have with it, but personally I'm a rules guy. I love learning game systems, and the more complex games I enjoy learning even more.

Necromunda is the model train of wargaming. You build a city tons of terrain and yes it’s a campaign style game. You don’t play it at the local store. I live in condo so trying to set up a league. One person owns the table and rules but the noobs just need to pick and buy a gang. It’s a great game with a bunch of friends. Some time only one or 2 people show up which is great for the game master. He sits and they come to him/her. But yes it’s hard to get enough to make it really fun. I’m a collector so it doesn’t matter to me I just love buying building and painting. When I’m in the old age home then I’ll have a captive audience lol

Fully agreed with your points here. Biggest concern for me is how many rules we now require to play any of the varieties of 40k and how often they change. We have the BBB, we have a codex, we have the GT rules every 6 months, munitorum points and "balance" slates at random intervals, not counting stuff like Arks of Omen, Psychic Awakening from 8th, etc. It's ponderous and onerous just to keep up, not counting if you actually have to re-tool your army in the bargain. I usually get a ton of flak from people saying "but it's a more balanced game!" Or "the rules are the best they've been!" I dunno, maybe I'm crazy, but I would happily play 4th or 5th Ed rules and codexes and have a decent time of it, because we had none of this level of complexity and machination. Not to mention, ya gotta buy all this rule stuff just to keep up. Yes, I know Wahapedia exists- I prefer to support a company and you can't get away with Wahapedia at most tournaments that I've seen. I may not like what GW does with their rules but I'm not going to rip them off.

I've been getting into Kings of War with a friend of mine. I tried it about a year ago at my FLGS but their method of teaching was introducing me to a tournament army right away while also learning the rules. While I sorta understood it was overwhelming. My friend and I scaled it back to small scale games and after a game or two we could reasonably try those tournament armies. The game plays really quick and isn't crazy complicated. It's been a lot of fun. Less over our heads than Infinity was.

@ldeming

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Have you tried the newest edition of Infinity that came out in 2020? It's not exactly easy but they definitely simplified the ruleset from older editions. I picked it up over the pandemic and have gotten really into it. Starter rules are CodeOne and if you want to go whole-hog you can step up to N4 (full rules).

”The most important rule then is that the rules aren’t all that important! So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines - the choice is entirely yours.” This is the introduction to the rules section in, I believe, the fourth edition tule book for 40k. And with that said, I usually skip a few rules and my friend group has so far seemed to enjoy the game a whole lot, even though we’re all noobs who started playing just last year. Skipping stratagems is the first thing I do and then I just follow along Midwinter Minis’ “how to play”-video combined with an eighth edition rule book. Long story short, start playing the game, figure things out as you go, if you truly want to play the game. Nothing wrong with just saying that you’re not interested in playing the game

This is why OnePageRules exists. Much prefer it's rule set.

Is it me or do One Page Rules keep cropping up in videos like this for us gamers who have felt this way for several years now? Have to admit that group of rulesets saved my gaming as I almost gave up on it all a year or two back and I think it was here I first heard it mentioned.

Yeah, but some people love the detailed rules and the crunch. This is why so many people love Horus Heresy and they don't want to change the rules to current edition of 40K (or similar). PS. This is also why people love games like Infinity N3.

Watching a “live” game of 40k is like watching paint dry - more time referring to several volumes of Rules / Codexes / Errata / FAQ’s etc than playing the game itself. I love the miniatures but would never even consider playing “competitively” - I play to enjoy the game, not play to have an extensive trip to the Reference Library. That’s why our group of gamers primarily use One Page Rules or even with further simplified rules we made ourselves - and subsequently we have several really enjoyable games in an evening. GW did publish such “Rules” with “starter sets” back in the early 2000’s (Space Marines v Orks and Middle Earth games) and thats what got me into Tabletop gaming initially. And yes, I still have those miniatures and still play them time to time, using the original GW simple guides / rules (now scanned and laminated to preserve them). I recently bought a Kill Team starter set and after painting the miniatures and browsing the included Rules etc - play using OPR. It doesn’t need to be so involved and complicated (other than I suppose, to produce more ways of GW grasping our hard earned cash, through sales of superfluous lore, rules, codexes etc etc etc).

Agreed, I am a veteran hobbyist and still, most of GW games are overwhelming to me. I like simple rules with a lot of depth, more than a ton of special rules. Even 40k or AoS which are meant to be easy to learn, are pretty complicated when you want to experience the full game. The only game I play a lot is Warcry because it has been straightforward since the beginning, the dice system is fun enough so it doesn't need tons of additional rules. I want more games like that.

I'm a fantasy guy, I love warhammer fantasy the old world lore and the look of a 6x4 battle, but rules upon rules are not for me, so I got an old copy of Battlemasters and adapted and added to it to include other units and switched a few rules and added magic, now I have whfb lite, easy mode. Very similar look and feel, I still get to take myself away form this world for an hour or so, I still chuck dice, models still die, there still a winner and looser and its still super immersing and above its FUN!

I can heavily relate to this video sadly. Me and a friend had planned for a while to try and get into Necromunda. I had already bought two boxes of Escher gangers, their book, and 2 boxes of squats and their book. I built up a box of the Squats and was so excited to play the game. And then I actually played it: It was absolutely horrible. The rules crunch, even in a dumbed down demo game, was overwhelming and too much to keep up with. Rolling 1 dice per shot is just not fun and it doesn't feel like your guys get to do much. Finding anything in the core rule book was a chore: they don't reference page numbers nearly enough. I'm at the point where I am gonna sell most of the Necromunda stuff I bought, and I've learned to not buy heavily into a game until you've actually tried it.

I completely agree. If they want to expand their business, they could fix this without destroying what they built. They could keep the AoS and 40K but come up with a simplified rule set for more casual gamers and people who are into the modeling. Just take out all of the complicated phases and ability types upon ability types. Have it so all you need is one rule book and maybe a battle tome. Make it so there isn't much to remember and in what phase you have to do it and whether it is at the beginning or end of a phase. Do it more like One Page Rules with a little more faction flavor and you have a good game.

I just started in November, I haven't even finished assembling my minis but the idea of looking through all the rulebooks is daunting. There are 4 books for Killteam currently and they're kind of meaty. Then this video summarized my fears

I used to play 40k and AoS a few years back. I’m not sure I would know where to start even if I did decide to jump back into them. GW needs a “Here’s what you need now” document of some sort.

I actually want to play the style of abstract game where you push the armies around with sticks! (like in a movie like you mentioned) I'm not sure if that game exists... maybe more the purview of board games?

Couldn't agree more. I think most wargames are built on the backs of crunchy role-playing-game systems which don't scale up from individual player characters to larger battles/combined arms/more units. (I also think wargame companies are deliberately fragmenting their product lines to maximize profit. That may also be a factor in the high levels of detail, but that's a different discussion) So long as wargames persist in the 'RPG-pedigree' line, the crunch quotient will only increase and new, multi-volume rule systems will continue to proliferate. IMO, the design paradigm needs to shift to efficiency and simplicity. And on some level, I think there's a sea-change in the air - as indicated by the wave of newer, indie skirmish games.

I'm always surprised at how people learn super complex rule sets with really detailed mechanisms for all these different things that can happen and then also have you roll a bunch of random events or effects which can have more effect on the game than your actual decisions.

I've been thinking about this a lot myself recently. Since the whole D&D OGL debacle has been taking place I've seen a lot of people moving across to Pathfinder 2e. I had a quick look and at first glance it looked great, but on closer inspection I saw how much crunchier it was than 5e (and then all the inevitable smartarses saying that being crunchy made it better, and that anyone who couldn't handle it had no place playing RPG's) and when I spoke to my players they all said it looked too crunchy for them as well. A lot of people just want some simple mechanics that they can play around with for a few twists and turns in their games, where the strategy is applied by the player and not by the ruleset

Designing our own skirmish games, Gauntlets of Glory and also Guns of Glory. I will strive to have a basic rule set as well as the fuller simulation rules. I have heard feedback that is necissary to make a skirmish game a gateway into this portion of the hobby.

I don't know, I like a bit of "crunch" in my games sometimes. I think there's room for a bit of a continuum

@tabletopminions

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Hence the ability to pick and choose ‘advanced rules’ in games like One Page Rules. Great for everyone. Thanks for watching!

I love the Warhammer and WH40k universes. But being more of a painter than a player, I fall into the ‘simpleton’ bracket when it comes to rules. Rather than video games, I think that maybe GW sees its biggest rival as D&D, which aims to deliver an immersive experience by going further down the “simulation” route. However, D&D works because players are typically controlling one character, rather than a squad or army, so it doesn’t matter that they have to roll a dice to see whether their character fumbles drawing a sword. The game still moves forward at a reasonable pace regardless. Having said that, players do typically expect a quest to take up an entire evening at least (disclaimer: I’m not a D&D player). I wholeheartedly endorse the publication of core, simple rule sets that allow casual players to bring their models and have a game and a laugh, with optional “advanced” rules that players can agree whether or not to use before starting a game.

I like the crunch but, even if it's just for accessibility, some kind of basic/starter ruleset is always going to be a good idea. That reminds me of the original Warhammer Quest, which came with a fairly slim rulebook and a really weighty advanced rulebook. You could have a great time just playing with the basic rules, but that advanced rulebook was always there if you wanted to dig deeper.

same here. so got myself necromunda and killteam boxes for the models to play a one page rules, hive city campaign. ;P

I agree 8th back with the index’s was so good for pick up in play. And now we are drowning in minutiae. Not to mention they try to engineer reasons for us players to buy an absolute library every edition

I hear you Adam, and I completely agree about the mental investment required for Necromunda and frankly, by most GW games. I try and keep up with WarCry and Kill Team but even KT is getting a bit rules heavy. Even the "smaller" versions of 40k are a problem because they don't really simplify the crunchy rules - they add further layers on top of the crunchy rules. I don't play GW rules much anymore. Instead I prefer less crunchy SF rules like Stargrave, Xenos Rampant, Space Station Zero, and Galactic Heroes from the Fistful of Lead family of games. All fun. All quick to play. GW are missing the boat by not making their own less crunchy, friendly rulesets.

I got into the game with 40k Rogue Trader and, man, that was so much fun. I stopped playing until about 4th and went all in on Tyranids, Orks, Blood Angels and eventually Tau. By the time 7th hit, I got burnt out. I was still in the hobby with collecting and painting but when every pick-up game is someone training for a tournament, it gets a bit boring. I tried a league but even that was like way too much commitment. I just didn't have the patience or interest to read up on every army rule that came along. When GW started releasing their book shelf games, Space Marine Adventures and the sort, I got excited. Self contained, quick to play games. I like that. If I feel like throwing down a 3 to 4 hour game session, I'll play an RPG. If GW can get games to under an hour, I might come back to big board but as it stands, even KT is a slog. I do recommend Fireteam for that KT feel but at a quicker pace and not so many unique rules and there's even data cards for other factions in the box.

I am having a load of fun with Necromunda, but we are using the One Page Rules version (Grimdark Future: Firefight and the Gangs of Hive City lists). GW had me hooked with Necromunda until I noticed to my dismay that they were going full GW on the rules. Meaning they really wanted me to spend another $400 or so in books if I wanted to "keep current". I joined the OPR Patreon instead. The setting and lore (not to mention the equivalent of a house payment I spent on models and terrain over a year or so) are definitely worth $5 to have a coherent and fast set of rules to play it. So far we have averaged a game in about 2.5 hours each time we have played - and that includes set up and repacking the terrain. Cheers!

Kill Team 2021 is actually pretty good at this. The basics aren’t difficult, and I find easier than the prior version, and things like Tac Ops, equipment, or command points are easily omitted if you want.

I play Frostgrave and Stargrave and they’re pretty rules light on the scale of fluff to crunch, and I already have a tough time getting people to try it out because the idea of building a band, choosing abilities, and then playing a game where your tracking a bunch of different pieces across a big board is intimidating to anyone not already in the hobby. If I were trying to get them to try a crunchier game I think I’d have no success at all. Also, I really appreciate that in spite of having two different wargames of his own creation not once does Adam shill for his own titles in these videos. It really makes it feel like he’s actually here to discuss these topics and not sell his own product.