Thanks to Factor75 for sponsoring today's video. Use my link to get 50% off your first Factor box and 20% off your next month of orders! strms.net/factor75_trovarion

@SigurdBraathen

14 күн бұрын

*sigh* another commercial. :(

@trovarion

14 күн бұрын

@@SigurdBraathen what are you on about? Without sponsors there would be no videos. So skip ahead if you don't want to watch it and be glad that these companies advertise on our channels, because if not I can assure you that 90% of miniature channels would not exist anymore.

@rthj6446

13 күн бұрын

And this is why I see printing as the best option. Removing the diddly-doodly and simplifying the surfaces to let the paint do more in creating the look, is much easier in blender than with a file.

As a guy who typically has played relatively high moel count armies, the 'unique' and 'dynamic' poses lose their charm when you have 5 or 6 of them in your army.

@ZhukovsBoots

Ай бұрын

This is the big problem with the new tyranids, the old hormagants and termagants looked good in large numbers like a true swarm, the new ones would be good for a skirmish game but don't work as well in an army.

@jesterprince4949

Ай бұрын

I have 100 chaos cultists, not one of them is a clone. I will sit there and hand convert every single mini to be unique and I will be gleeful doing it. The dynamic poses are a good starting point.

@jesterprince4949

Ай бұрын

@@ZhukovsBoots Doesn't take much to bend or chop them a little bit though. Nids are super easy to repose. Besides a running gaunt is a running gaunt, the old kits were hardly flush with unique poses.

@darkhighwayman1757

Ай бұрын

I have a bunch of heresy marines and they are all holding the bolter in 2 hands and its rough sometimes to get the arms and hands right. I want some pointing hands or a grenade hand or something

@dziku2222

Ай бұрын

Yeah, but I make conversions of everything on my infantry armies. Each dude is unique, even if that looks wacky. I make minis to make them rather silly and goofy, but still not breaking the setting immersion that much, this way I feel like those guys are memorable when they do something on the table

I don't mind the over-designed factor on Leaders or Elite units, but bog standard units don't need the level of detail that we seem to be stuck with these days. I don't want to have to paint 9 belts, 8 pouches, 3 daggers, and a letter from Susie on every peasant levyman. I really just want a range that has modern quality with some older, simpler designs. It isn't impossible to find thankfully, and getting easier every day, especially with a 3d printer.

@Loquitar2009

10 күн бұрын

Absolutely, you just CANNOT find a "unit" of regular infantry with the same pose. I don't always want art, I want an ARMY.

For me, cleanup is a terrible motivation killer - I totally believe that "seams"/mouldlines on a kit should be designed to be hidden, deep in a shoulder joint or what not, requiring little-to-no-clean-up. Also I prefered older mentality of breaking the kits up into legs, torso, arms, heads was better than all the mono-posing that goes on now - better for kitbashing, better for posing... I completely agree "overdesigned" - much as many figs are pretty, there's a lot less for you to do your own way.

@Mikester88

Ай бұрын

I totally understand that cleanup is a motivation killer but for me i actually don't mind it. I find it pretty "zen" to just zone out and get to cleaning, pretty straightforward most of the time. I was thinking about the monopose vs old style of seperating parts the other day. I don't think the old way was that much better, most of the time the models looked pretty much the same anyway and if you are into kitbashing you can still do most of it if you are a little bit creative. But for sure its not AS easy. If i had to choose between great looking dynamic models or more rigid designs of old i take the new ones anyday.

@Zenkujo

Ай бұрын

@@Mikester88 I get that. It's very much a "to each their own" thing. :) I get that some people prefer the detail to paint, others prefer to create detail with paint for eg. There really is no one way, cos there are too many different aspects to the hobby. Some build. Some paint. Some spend hundreds hrs, some want an hr paint at most. Some play, some don't. Me, I'm a kitbash/customise that utterly hates cleaning mould lines. Mostly cos I always bloody miss one and my dry brush always finds them. I don't mind cleaning up my custom stuff, but cleaning up flash, mould lines etc I'm always like "surely you could design this so this doesn't need to happen". :D

@petlemons

Ай бұрын

@@Mikester88 For my hobbying, I really appreciate the new exciting dynamic poses, because I only ever paint one of each. However, when I was playing a lot, I wanted something in between the old static poses, and the new dynamic poses. The quesion becomes: what do you want more; 100 clanrats all with the same boring static pose, or 10 groups of 10 rats with the same dynamic pose. I'm not sure which I personally dislike more! The plastic 30k marines are close, but as I look at my 1k Sons army, my eyes are still drawn to the similar poses on many of the minis.

@Mikester88

Ай бұрын

@@petlemons Yeah, fair point. It is a difficult nut to crack. Ideally you should have the option to do both but that might be asking too much. Then some armies lend themselves better to more monopose. My necrons are sets of 5different poses, albeit very similar poses, and in a bigger group it fits. Probably same with the skaven then, horde armies overall would probably benefit. When it comes to smaller more elite armies i like to do some converting just to mix the models up a bit. But i don't do it for playing either.

@J-Teg

Ай бұрын

It very depends on the model . The Redemptor Design is awesome. You can move every part of it. But on the other hand I still find mould lines on textured parts which are impossible to clean up. GW improved the mould lines but now them really design to much gaps.

100% As well as assembling and prepping issues, I prefer models that let me add my own detail with the paint, over ones that force me to paint details with the sculpt. And when there's too many of them it just kills my motivation to paint it.

@max16

Ай бұрын

glad to see you are still around brother.

@GoldenKaos

Ай бұрын

This is a problem I've had with GW minis for about 10 years now tbh, the overabundance in detail is no doubt great creatively for the *designers* at the studio, but it diminishes the creativity left for the customers.

@zera9579

Ай бұрын

100% man. I finally got round to painting an apothecary the other day. Battle ready, nothing special but still took in the region of 8-10 hours because of all the details. It's a great sculpt and now it's done it looks great but it sucked all my motivation and I'm really struggling to get back into painting something else.

@T_Kempf

Ай бұрын

Completely agree. I miss the night goblins I painted early 2000s where the mini made you want to add details, now I try to simplify/remove details. And building has always been my least favorite part 😅

@saltedllama2759

Ай бұрын

They are easily left off or eliminated because they are plastic. You leave it off, fill in the tiny spot where it was supposed to be, sand smooth, and paint away. Still an easier process than what old metal or resin kits used to be like to prepare.

What i like the least are not the gaps but rather the fact that these new designs discourage Kitbashing and adding your own flavor by making it more difficult. You don't get alot of flat surfaces that allow room for your own interpretation, instead you get parts that fit like the ones you have shown and it's like: "Where do i even start?". It also makes your quote at 03:21 hit twice as much for these cases, your Kitbash might look like garbage until you add that final part which perfectly covers up your "Mistakes". You basically need a final image in your head before you even start, instead of just going at it like gits used to.

@petlemons

Ай бұрын

I agree, but I have found a technique that has made it more manageable. Things don't go into my bitz box as individual pieces anymore. They will go in as sub assemblies. Just like you might cut a part a weapon to use different pieces of it, I cut apart the sub assemblies. It does require a bit more sculpting, but it has made these minis much easier to kitbash with.

@paulgibbons2320

24 күн бұрын

From the comments, I think most of us agree with that. ❤

@RicketySettra

7 күн бұрын

Definitely agree, I end up being like well may as well do marines again, because I can bash something unique on them easily.

My issue is a "if you gaze long into a gap, the gap also gazes into you" thing, and i cannot, for the life of me ignore it

@zaynevanday142

Ай бұрын

😂😂😂

@gwaltigel

Ай бұрын

I feel you :|

@magicianman534

Ай бұрын

Them: What's the matter? Your mini looks great to me. You: *BUT IT'S WRONG*

@mrsupaconducta

Ай бұрын

I avoid gazing at glazes because I don't want to connect on a personal level with my donuts.

@brionl4741

Ай бұрын

Ginnungagap

I 100% agree. Just look at the original HeroQuest miniatures. You stand 2 meters away and you can see that guy is “The Barbarian” and that guy is a “Chaos Warrior” and that guy the “Dwarf”. And look at this cool little goblins over there and this amazing skeletons at the other side of the room. Now a look at the battle field and I have no fucking clue what I am looking at.

@AbenZin1

22 күн бұрын

"You can't even tell what this is! This is a Gargoyle."

@rangda_prime

22 күн бұрын

Well said. I'm actually printing scans of old Heroquest and adjacent minis right now to get back to the older, simpler style of minis.

@MatthewFederico

18 күн бұрын

I don't agree at all. If I had to build minis in the style of Heroquest, I wouldn't want anything to do with the hobby. They are just as ugly as they are easy to build. I love the new range of GW minis for being full of personality and a top tier artistic direction. You can see the difference in quality between Age of Sigmar and The Old World.

@81Earthangel

18 күн бұрын

@@MatthewFederico Old Hero quest figures cam fully assembled, except for one model which had 3 parts. They were really well designed and had a great art style. I am not talking about the new HeroQuest.

@skraaj007

13 күн бұрын

That type of design mentality crept everywhere. Noticed it first with Diablo 3, in D1 you k ew which mob is which - D3 is all generic. And later I started to notice that in GW minis as well. All very similar in terms of garments, spikes etc. Kind of glad that OW has old-ish models

The main problem I have with complex posees, and models having a lot "stuff" orbiting around them, is that they make it less easy to carry them around. And gaming is one of the aspects a lot of people are in for this hobby. if you need a seperate box for each single model, it feels like you're moving an army, rather than just bringing some mini's along to game. And personally, as someone who doesn't own a car, it's just getting more and more of a hassle... Don't get me wrong, I love centerpiece models, but everything is so wildly posed, with so many details, there isn't any centrepiece model... all models are.

Mini’s are getting over designed in general IMO - sometimes less is more. I saw a comment recently on reddit that said ‘wow I didn’t think you’d be able to make this mini look good cos there’s hardly any detail on the sculpt, but it looks great!’ It’s really stuck with me as a super strange way of looking at models and painting, but it was highly upvoted so I guess it’s not that uncommon an opinion.

@Suiberis

Ай бұрын

It's one of the reasons why in the DnD communities where minis are less important, some painters have started going with knockoffs of Schleich fantasy toys or even Schelich inspired toys from Aliexpress. Simpler sculpts and poses, but enough detail to look good when given some care, especially on the larger 5 inch monsters.

@Hot_Dice

Ай бұрын

Well you’re talking about Reddit so…

@Finn-pe7uj

Ай бұрын

It’s Reddit. What do you expect from those soulless creatures?

@DominatorLegend

7 күн бұрын

If Reddit said it's good then it's most likely bad

I am a collector, “enthusiastic” painter who enjoys building armies for the fun of it, historically mostly GW armies. After 30+ years of doing this, I have obviously noticed the detail creep that has happened with the advent of 3d sculpting. As my grandkids get older, more and more do they want to “play a game” with my minis. I would let them but with all the spikes and fragility of these beautifully sculpted masterpieces I just couldn’t let them. Instead, I purchased Mantic’s skirmish game Deadzone and boy! I had an absolute blast. The minis were so simple, yes nowhere near the amount of detail but within a week of evenings I had them built, painted and ready for the Boys first taste or wargaming. And that included the scenery! It was a revelation that I had actually been feeling more and more reluctant to start assembling and painting the latest goodness from GW without even knowing it. Will I continue to collect GW products. As long as I can afford to then yes. Will I be adding to the Boys Mantic armies…Oh yes I am already doing so and enjoying the Hell out of it.

@bojoggs-ik8tq

Ай бұрын

Just look at the new terminator chaplain, guy has 3 different 4+ invulnerable saves on top of the 5+, all on the model.

@CesarIsaacPerez

Ай бұрын

I play Boardgames with my nieces, I also don't want them handling my nice minis. Maybe when they get older.

@andreyradchenko8200

13 күн бұрын

Shill bot.

I'm one of those freaks who enjoys the building process as much as the painting piece, especially vehicles - i think it's the engineer part of me. However, i agree 110% with the mold lines, i just built the Ursula Creed and Canoness figs and there were some very inconvenient mold lines that needed OCD attention. You aren't the only one with a beef over the "over-built" minis these days. Pete the Wargamer is constantly shaving off and stripping down minis in his builds, like his Raptors. Pros and Cons. I don't need infinite pouches on my 150 Guardsmen to paint, but on my Officers and characters, definitely. Henry on Cult of Paint talked about this in his recent Solar Auxilia vid. love your content man, keep it up!

Aha! The one thick coat painting method comes to the fore with dealing with joins of multiple part models. My time to shine!

I find the building process therapeutic. I don't play anymore so my painting is mostly for display so no rush to get things done. Personally I'd rather deal with gaps than undercuts. Bit of milliput and a quick sanding usually sorts them whereas essentially re-sculpting an under cut can be a tedious endeavour

@Mikester88

Ай бұрын

Same here!

@jesterprince4949

Ай бұрын

Agreed. Trovarion has to pump out videos on the weekly basis to appease the you tube deities, so its a pain if a mini is complex. Us regular people have more time to spend enjoying the build. The people that don't enjoy building won't enjoy it anyway. The building section is one of my favourite parts and the more complex a mini is the more I get excited.

What I find with overly designed minis, is that first -> this is a marketing trick. They show beautifully on a box, it makes people want to buy them, but once they are assembled (after going through the gazillion steps), you never know by where to start with the painting. Second -> if you really intricately paint every detail, it can become a very difficult thing to recognize the mini from afar when you look at it on the table, as it becomes a visual mess. It makes it very difficult to start painting (particularly for new hobbyists) as you actively have to choose what you want to highlight on the mini before painting it and stick to that plan. Sometimes it's nice to really plan ahead, make sub-assemblies etc. for your hero character or things like that. I don't want to have to go through this whole process for the rest of the normal army. The normal minis should be standardized, posable and easy to chain-pain.

One of my biggest problems with modern cutting is when a piece of the sculpted base is part of the model or vice versa. Like a foot is part of the base, or the tree is attached to the cape. Even when I'm not doing subassemblies I prefer to do the base separate. This is also true with riders and mounts being partially integrated and the legs are attached to the horses back or something (Outriders...). Belthanos' feet? Like...at least the outrides are push-fit....he's a centerpiece.

its something i just thought about myself recently when i watched another of these " i try to paint an army in 24hours" video, were everyone always fails because they spend at least half the time building the army instead of painting.. as a youngster i would build fantasy regiments in an evening, basecoat them and start painting. now i spend the first weekend assembling a unit half the size. I do love the look of many of the new models, but damn do i hate building them..

i nearly ended up as a mini designer some years ago, and i deeply appreciate some of what your picking up on. I noticed that often designers and artists seamed to loose sight of the fact that minis are first and foremost tabletop gaming pieces and get carried away with the artistic expression: minis functionally must be able to be easily picked up, placed and moved around within 3d complex scenery and other minis where the position and facing matter, and this can include mild hills, and they must be transported within carry cases, and in large enough numbers to play a game. minis which offbalance, or extent too far outside they're base areas become impractical to play with and the growing size of the average man from 25 to 28 and now to 30+ possibly 34 mm means that the increased total volume of an identical force from old to new minis is considerable, limiting the how big an army one can bring, and often demanding the use of cars for multiple large cases rather than just a backpack on the bus thus frustrating students and young people who often don't have access to that. i think some of the modern minis essentially become to too big, and to complex with random spikes and protrusions which makes them impractical for gaming and sometimes this leads to them being too delicate with nowhere good to pick them up from. i call these diorama minis as that's all they're good for. whilst not all modern minis suffer from this last problem, a number of minis do, and the general creep in size and complexity as made these problems more common.

I have to say the ammount of new, small details made in new models... They put me off from painting as well. It feels like a chore lately to paint just one infantry unit, let alone a whole army of them. I agree Chris, it does get overwhelming too often now.

@andresperedo1275

Ай бұрын

It is clear that when the details are sculpted into the model, they "fit better", but I prefer to have those details as "add ons", so you can choose if you want to include them or not.

I agree with your points. Assembling and cleanup is the #1 motivation killer for me and makes me paint less overall as a result

@DylanGuitar525

Ай бұрын

i switched from building Gundam to playing/building/painting Warhammer so for me its not that bad. But the moldlines on some miniatures are just atrocious.

@andreasmuller4666

Ай бұрын

It´s the step I prefer far over doing the paintjob. To each their own I guess.

That’s why the Old World feels so good. Simple models that I can make as complex as I want.

I really felt this assembling my Bretonnian army box. My peasants were 2 or 4 pieces, all of which went with each other so no need to care about which pieces fit where, my knights were 8, but then my lord on pegasus was 51.

1. Wherever a sculptor's chisel could get, a brush can get there. Additionally, hand-carved details could have a specific size depending on the size of the tools and the precision of the eye. Today's models are too complicated. Details made in a 3D program can be much smaller. I miss the old, slightly chunky models. The cartoonish proportions in old Warhammer had their own charm. 2. Filling gaps is frustrating and often involves the destruction of the texture (scales, folds, scars, etc.) in the process of abrasion with sandpaper. Perfectionists will not get easy times with new models.

Yes! Plus the fact that I have to go with subassemblies to be able to paint some models is quite annoying.

When I read the title of the video, I didn't think I would have the same experience as a top notch miniature painter and builder, but I kind of do. For me, the overdesigning has two major flaws: 1. It greatly complicates, diminishes or even takes away the ability to kitbash and make a miniature "your own". In the past I could add little bits and pieces, exchange weapons, heads and arms, to make two miniatures that have the same base sprue look diferent from each other. Get two Space Marine Captains, change up a few bits and boom, they look like completely different characters. With newer sets, like the Immolation Squad for example, I get 10 models, that are 2 times the same five guys, in very "striking" poses, that make it very hard to add anything on to them, that makes them look more like a part of my army. I can't even exchange shoulder pads, because 2. The digital method makes the miniature creators lazier. It's the only reason that can explain the dogsh*t placement of the parts in the sprue. The shoulders are sometimes attached to the torso, sometimes to the arms, never are they seperate. Sometimes the Torso is split in two, or even three parts, that wrap around each other in kind of twisting motion. You can't change any parts in that mini. This whole problem extends to painting as well, because the poses make it nearly impossible to reach certain areas of the miniature, without painting "in subassembly". But with the individual parts being cut in such weird angles, gluing them together afterwards can make the connection points stick out very badly and causes more work. I really don't enjoy sets when they are like this. But what frustrates me the most, is that you can see, that they still have people on their team that understand how to create sprues in a consumer friendly way. The new Terminator Set is awsome for kitbashing and easy assembly, without big gaps. So yeah... some more quality control from a consumer standpoint would be nice I guess.

@DarkAlex1978

10 күн бұрын

Kitbashing is indeed a huge factor. Looking at these kits I would not be able to kitbash them in anything as good as I would have with old miniatures. But after all to me seems very clear how discouraging models customization became part of GW business policy. Over the years I have seen how GW gradually shifted from encouraging and teaching you to scratch build your own models to the current polar opposite situation. Honestly I don't see any real way out and they can only blame themselves.

My biggest inconvenient with new GW minis is how complicated can be kitbash them to make them unique, and I know they do this to prevent 3d prints to reused all the extra parts they put on their kits, which is A LOT I do not like having multiple exactly the same pose units in my army, and the amount of time spent on kitbash is disgusting (even if I love it) compared to how much time I spend actually painting, which is even worst when you think that some big units is just impossible doing this for how they are made, and I'm not even talking about Tyranids which is just something else GW should work more in this concept that they used to be so good at it that was having your own personal army with the tools they provide, which now days is just a simple upgrade kit that doesn't even work for the amount of units you need for a match. That or let me sculpt/3d print the parts that I need without having to saw an arm and a leg to make my unit not look the same

As someone who doesn't play but just paints and enters the odd painting comp, yes i gap fill and yes it has gotten worse over time. I will say i do enjoy building anyway. If im just painting something for fun though , with nothing in mind i will only fill big gaps that can catch the eye, anything behind / underneath is just not worth it. I think the biggest issue with new minis is they are starting to cram so much detail into every part of the mini it takes away a lot of freedom you have to free flow ur own ideas and styles into the mini. The edge highlight lines on some of the snap to fit minis are awful. Still you have to think there doing all this as most people who buy and paint probably are only doing it on a paint to play and care little about gaps or mold lines ext.

"More details makes everything look better" - Rob Liefeld, 1990-something.

I just got the made to order metal Ork Nobz which are dated for 1998 and I think they look a lot more lively than the plastic ones but both look good to me. There's aspects of each that are better than one another and I think having them all mixed up in their units makes them all feel more characterful. I also think Kromlech's resin hand sculpted models look more lively than a lot of the plastic GW models but that's part of the reason why kitbashing with them is so fun.

100% agree that the assembly is killing fun. I also started investing more into Kickstarter board games with minis (most recently marvel zombies, marvel united recently) because these come assembled in a box and that makes all the difference for me.

I'm assembling a Slaves to Darkness Daemon Prince right now and it's like the algorithm could detect my pain and frustration...

I try to hide the crime with paint. I make a thic coat of base paint fill it as best as i can and then divert the eye with strategicly placed Highlights

Hello Sir. The overdesign is most prevalent among 3d prints, as they have more variety obviously. For me as a painter, I dont find those models enjoyable, so what I've found myself doing more and more is taking small scale (10-15mm) and upscale them up 200-300% to have my regular warhammer sized minis, and they are so chunky and so nice and so satisfying to paint. Particularly Varus dwarves are really good warhammer dwarves when upscaled. Regarding the overengineered size, well, those kind of minis usually can be printed in one part

@Zulfrak

Ай бұрын

yeah this is a problem i found with a bunch of 3D designes for Print. The modesl look grat in renders but are so full of details and textures and whatsoever. Some designers recogniced this and keep it simple, but then the minis are harder to "sell" cause they may look plain.

Absolutely. I switched to painting Oathmark minis because of the simplicity. I don't want to paint ten skulls, a severed head, three pouches, a gazillion spikes, two parchments an sixty three gems on every single grunt.

I don't know if I made a mistake when building the Glottkin but mine had a crazy amount of gaps to fill. I'm not the best at sanding and filling so I plan to add random Nurgle goo or grit to cover up anything I missed. I somehow always find something I missed after priming

I'm in the Warhammer hobby for 30 years now and I totally agree with you. Especially Citadel models have to many details and parts nowadays. It's a drag for me to get it all glued and painted. I'm not saying the metal models were perfect... But still, my preference goes out to the older stuff and that's why I am thrilled with The Old World and the re-release of older models.

I wholeheartedly agree. The amount of details have skyrocketed and is more geared towards slapchop and contrasts, sucking a lot of the fun out of deliberate painting, where you want some freedom of expression. The second point you make on the sprues, yes gap fillings and mold lines are two annoying things, but another point with these overly complex designs is that they make converting your minis a nightmare. So many minis now has half their head on one part, and the other half on another. Same with arms and hands. The modularity is gone, probably to counter 3D printed bits. It’s a damn shame.

@FreelancerND

Ай бұрын

Even with slapchop, those amounts od etails will look absolutely poopoo if used with slapchop + contrast alone. And good luck painting all those tiny miniscule details with regular acrylics.

@jeancouscous

Ай бұрын

"probably to counter 3D printed bits" is a conspiracy that is just not true lol. 3d printing is perhaps getting 0.10% of gw bread lol. It's mostly because they have more and more complex designs that doesn't bode well with modularity.

@jesterprince4949

Ай бұрын

Ah yes, the good old days of GW minis where you had the option of posing you guy taking a dump pointing to the left, or taking a dump pointing slightly less to the left. Or you had a metal mini that did have a dynamic pose, but modifying it was a total pain. I will take the dynamic plastic poses every time, its a better base model to work with. It took so much more work to make a decent pose out of the old minis.... or you had to start with a metal mini, which was even more work.

@FreelancerND

Ай бұрын

@@jesterprince4949We did not care about this soy shit in 90s cause we bought minis to PLAY tabletop with. Nowadays, people do not play warhammer, they buy overpriced collectible figurines, hence the overcomplication of sculpts. Simple.

@jesterprince4949

Ай бұрын

@@FreelancerND Sod off, I was there too mate, we wanted cool as shit minis, we just had to work harder to get them.

also the lines where you join parts, you make disappear with greenstuff/modeling putty, using the rubber claysculpting tools for when its wet, and grades of sand paper up to the polishing paper for car paint jobs, for when its dry. thats how you force them to be invisible. also you can even use greenstuff to stick together parts by sandwiching it in between them, though often this require you to reduce (cut/grind) the material of either side of the join to make it line up right. its essentially sculpting the parts together.

I'm assembling some Kroxigors right now and I'm feeling this video. SO MANY SEAMS! and each kroxigor is 15-20 parts that need clipped and clean. It's been taking me 2-3 hours to assemble each model, and around 20-30 minutes to sprue goo and sand the gaps. Very frustrating.

About the handrail edge, It's quite interesting because this is something that we usually do in modelling for video games to help bring out the shapes of different elements. Especially with video game engine highlighting silhouette in the geometry and textures is super important for it to look decent. Could be some of these were designed by modellers who moved from games to mini's :)

About line molds, we have an artistic movement in Spain that we call "Rebabismo" because "rebabas" is how we call the line molds in spanish. We keep the line molds not because we don't care about, but for a conceptual reason: we want the toy soldiers look like toy soldiers and the molds are part of it.

What grinds my gears most with mould lines etc…I’ll think I’ve done a good job prepping my model, then start painting…finding a line that I missed…I know it’s ruined my model and I don’t want to go any further with it…it’ll usually be in the leg or backpack of a space marine and I know it’s highly visible to me. It really knocks my enthusiasm to carry on as I know I have to strip the model, start afresh and with limited time..I toss it aside and think the 2-3 hours I’ve set aside are ruined. Where time pressures compete with hobby time…it’s a choice that gets easier and easier to move away from the hobby.

I use liquid resin and I can thicken it by adding talc powder increases the thickness of the paste and if its thick I just add more resin then cura with a UV torch.

I usually try to get rid of any moldlines on my minis and fill in any gaps. Its just everytime when I thought I was very thorough on a mini, I end up finding a god damn mold line, right when I am doing my NMM or an OSL.

Good Engineering is not when there is nothing more to add, it's when there's nothing more to take away

100% depends on the model for me. If its a monster or the centrepiece of an army I'm happy for both the sculptor to go all out with details and myself with gap filling and sanding, because thats what draws your eye for a tabletop army - but if its like that for every model it gets very fatiguing.

It’s nice to hear someone like yourself saying this. I really hate building. It’s such a pain knowing a good number of my “painting” sessions are going into cleaning, building, cleaning again etc before even getting paint on the palette. Even worse when you rush and then find horrific mold lines or whatever that you’ve missed.

The old Hexwraiths were so difficult to build that I stopped halfway. Things that really put a blocker on my enjoyment: tiny little bits that you have to glue! They often get broken, I end up having loads of mould line clean up and are a real pain to clean up. I don't mind having to fix gapping if it's easy to get to. The mawpit is an example of this.

@hll705

3 күн бұрын

I used to think they were the worst offenders, but today I had the displeasure of assembling spirit hosts.

Building my minis is sometimes my favourite part of miniature painting, I can’t say I agree at all

The creep in of horrible angular robes has crept in too.

I wholeheartedly agree with your issues with modern gdubs minis. I remember the first time I saw one of their over-designed minis and thinking “ ok but how would you store and transport that?”. Tbh I mostly paint oldhammer minis now simply due to the aesthetic leaning too hard into the hyper detailed. Conversely I actually like building miniatures so the assembly isn’t the off putting part, but more the shotgun-blast-like approach to details.

All those parts got me good with the Cities of Sigmar knights. On one of the models, the top of the barding and a forearm are one piece. Unfortunately, as I was struggling to fit the arm I neglected to notice the barding edge was disconnected from the rest of the barding. I was sadly unable to remove the cemented forearm because of the odd shape and placement. I could not simply pull it out and if I tried to cut it with a saw, I'd be hitting other parts of the model for sure. It definitely hurt my motivation.

Totally agree with you on this. My main problem being the overdesign leaving you with flavorless characters, no room for painting and figurines that are really fragile. I prefer a lot oldhammers sturdy figurines. I would add that most overcomplicated design makes no sense most of the time on the battlefield (that dwarf is really jumping everytime and carry his rock everywhere ?)

I really Like how Rouge Hobbies has handled this, by finding older models, making her own, and bringing attention to nice simple models.

I just did this on the manticore in the Talia Vedra kit. Sprue goo seemed fill a couple of gaps on the wings and I primed it and went ahead and did a base coat while i had the airbrush out but the gaps were very visible. Just put the milliput right over the paint, when back with primer and another base coat. Slowed down my progress by like 2 days. Not ideal but the mini went together really well. Not sure how I feel about it but I don’t like assembly either!

100% agree. Painting minis from other companies, that are not over-designed is breath of fresh air

1000% but GW doesn’t give a fuck as long as their plastic keeps selling.

Although I think alot of comments here are valid and agree with them, talking about mould lines, loss of modular parts and building being a chore with over complex parts. I think people forget how far we have come from old pewter models, cleaning those, sanding, filling gaps, repairing miscast parts with green stuff and not being able to kitbash them like with can with kits now. I think its good to remember GW produces some of the best kits in the world that allow us to do this hobby we love so much. There is something for everyone, even more so now with 3D printers, from the naustalgia of metal scultps to super high res over designed display models and every army in between. It really just depends what you collect for

Generally I spend a lot of time with test fitting, and don't have much issue with seems. The sculpts are so accurate, and there is almost no shrinkage in the material so the gaps are air tight...IF you spend the time on cleaning and test-fitting. I happen to be one of the rare individuals that enjoys assembly so this comes easier to me that it does to most people, who rush it because they want to get to the painting as fast as possible. My bigger issue is that the parting DOES NOT take into account the painter's need for logical sub-assemblies on larger and/or more complicated poses.

use sprue glue to glue the parts together, with enough that it squeezes out a little, then blend that away with sculpting tools (pointy silicon one and the little metal ball on the end of a stick ones are my most used). works great on anything organic, and if it's on an armour panel you can just sand it flush after anyway.

I hate building models and getting glue on my fingers, particularly GW ones. But discovering games where the minis come already preassembled (like asoiaf), and 3d printing models that need no assembly has made me enjoy the hobby a lot again

In my hobby journey, I started with second edition 40k starter box, and back then, obviously the models were simple. I was also a kid, and didn't really care so much about mold lines, and was not aware of putty to fill gaps. Fast forward to around 2010, and I had a brief stint in Warmachine and Hordes, painting 3 battle groups, and some additional units for them. Those models were significantly more complex than the ol 2. edition monopose marines, and my painting significantly improved ( always artistically inclined, better grasp of techniques, etc ), so I had a lot of fun with the 25-30 models I painted during that time. Arriving in the "now times" - I had that spur of urge to get some Battle Sisters ( just a 10 girl squad ), and obviously needed all the things again. So, after 350 € spent on tools, brushes, paints, and the price of the minis, it cost almost a fortune. When everything was there, I was eager to start, and then looked at the assembly guide. Some part splits, I can totally understand. But others? They have a split on the legs, running from the knee to the heel, and I REALLY don't get why they were printed as separate pieces, because without a good gap filling putty, that leg will look atrocious. The whole assembly has put me so off, that the squad is laying around half assembled for weeks now. The excessive mold lines and gap filling are just no fun.

I am absolutely with you on that. They added so much details to the minis and limited us on positioning the minis like we could do back in the day since basically everything was a flat surface to glue to another flat surface. Yeah, the minis look amazing, but giving us more "empty" spaces without thousands of pouches and skulls would be great. Add them like back in the day and give us the chance to add them or leave them away without having to hack away at the mini like a butcher and then rescuplting the areas. I hope they get to a point where they give us more opportunities to create our own visions again with multipose kits that look amazing and not overdesigned with detail 🙏

As a primary painter and not much of a gamer, I spend a good amount of time filling gaps when necessary, smoothing any additional materials off and generally making sure the minis I'm working on are in the bed possible condition before I even put primer on them. Maybe it's just me, maybe I'm neurotic about it. I know when I look at other people's work, if I see mold lines of gaps, it immediately reads as "they didn't care enough to take those bits off", and that to me is a bit of laziness. I have a good friend who doesn't clean his minis before painting, and it shows.

Great video explaining some of the challenges of modern miniature design. So often I see details in 3d sculpted minis that are either too small to see on the printed model or too small to paint accurately. Main issue I see with most GW models lately isn't even the 3d sculpting, but the slicing of the models for the mass produced plastic sprues. Imagine this is most likely because of their schedules and turn around times for producing these models, which likely prevents the degree of quality control required to reduce the ongoing issues with mould lines and gaps. Another issue in the great bucket of problems that GW has left unaddressed for too long.

I agree with everything, just returned to the hobby and kitbashed a model using the Legion Praetor model and here i am attaching a sliver of a cape bit because they wanted a fold/wrinkle detail, now the cape has a slight gap and didn't even really have a joint for the cape to cape space making it extremely brittle. Didn't realize I needed a bunch of extra supplies for assembly until then. For what they charge for mini's these days people shouldn't have to deal with some of these BS micro details/headaches.

The kind of detail in stargrave, frostgrave, 2000s Warhammer, Wargames Atlantic are the perfect blend between gaming pieces and interesting minis

As someone who sculpts miniatures, I have tried to learn how to sculpt miniatures by researching what already works. An important detail is whether or not the piece is going to be used instead of just sit in a display case. There's a good reason the old designs were chonky. They didn't break easy when being handled and transported. I would postulate that this shift to display quality over play focused is that most people don't play Warhammer. Most people just paint them. And as anyone who has played Warhammer knows, you're shoving these things together in units and their spindly bits hook onto everything. Thankfully they are made of plastic. Which brings us to resin printing. There are ways to get resin stronger but anyone whose used small resin miniatures knows - they break easy. Ive had skeletons with almost perfect anatomical accuracy shatter from hooking my finger and dropping an inch back onto the table when playing a ttrpg. They look fantastic! But are impractical for play. Chess pieces are chunky for a reason. So they can last. You have to sculpt them to print well and easy as well as make them thick. Look at Heroforge. Their clothes are cartoonishly thick and their weapons are like holding a log. But they're durable. In conclusion, we can see that Games Workshop is making a choice to lean towards the painting side. And they may be prioritizing taking a sculpt that wasn't made for printing and figuring it out after it's handed to the engineering team. They may get better with time but I doubt games workshop is going to pay sculptors enough for them to learn faster. Otherwise we'd know who sculpts these things. (I have a personal grudge against Games Workshop because they never post artwork or minis with the artist's name)

I almost didn't click on the video when I saw your face in the thumbnail... Got to keep the negative statistics going. ;-) It's actually quite relieving that a professional has the same or similiar issues as I have! So, thanks for this video! I don't mind the building part and removing simple moldlines per se, except difficult to reach areas or e.g. along "bumpy details". As for gaps, to be honest, that's not acceptable in my opinion. I don't feel comfortable enough filling them (looking nicely) and they do make me feel less proud of the final paintjob, no matter how well I painted the mini. And considering GW sees themselves as a beginner/hobby entry company (according to the The Painting Phase's podcast with Tom Hibberd, hobby product designer at GW) and also GW miniatures are so expensive, this design failure (gaps) is not acceptable.

Also, unposable. I cannot stand the mono-pose minis.

@Headpool98

Ай бұрын

Realistically, how many poses could you get out of posable miniatures?

@LoganGrimmnar

Ай бұрын

​@@Headpool98 more than one. 🥴

@Headpool98

Ай бұрын

@@LoganGrimmnar two poses stretched out over 20 minis is really not that much.

@Muukip

Ай бұрын

@@Headpool98 Yeah. And you can still arm and headswap a lot of the contemporary GW minis

@LiamBarden

Ай бұрын

There's still all sorts of ways you can convert monopole minis, and the results often look much better than the old ball and socket minis. There's a bunch of videos out there on this topic

Ahhh, I really enjoy the building part of the hobby. Sanding, cutting, filling gaps, yes I agree it can be annoying when there's a bunch of unnecessary gaps, but I don't mind doing some work to build and clean up a model. I build and paint Gunpla models as well. I enjoy both side of the hobby. Building and painting.

I agree with the point you're trying to make about the overly designed models. Personally I don't mind so much the activity of assembly and cleanup, but I'm so anal about every little detail that it takes me ages and ages to get models ready to paint. It takes so long, in fact, that by the time I've assembled one box I'm often distracted by the next thing and I somehow end up with multiple armies of zenithal primed minis and a collection of unbuilt plastic in my closet that taunts me every day. I'm also a very slow painter even though I like the process of it, so if I were to ever "catch up" in my building pipeline, the painting backlog is nearing double digit number of years before I could realistically finish.

I am probably in the minority that enjoys the assembly/cleanup process. I typically make several passes on gaps with thin plastic cement and sanding until the area is smooth. When the gap disappears, i find it satisfying. In addition, I know that when it is time to paint, everything will look great.

I just finished the newish daemon prince, kitbashed into a classic bloodthirster. Never doing that again. How does a hoof need to come in three parts?

Well before being a miniature gamer, I was (and I'm still) an aircraft/ military modeler. So no problems with assembly, sanding, filling gaps etc...

I am using thicker sprue goo, closer to putty in consistency, and then I'm using plastic glue with nail polish brush to move the bead of goo around to make perfectly smooth surface. Also, nail polish brush takes care of minor mould lines without sanding or scraping too. This makes building plastic models so easy I really do not want to work with models made from other materials anymore. Still do sometimes, but there's a lot of swearing involved. Overall in my experience gaps and mould lines are so much worse on older GW kits. Building older plastic orcs compared to new ones is a chore. As for overdesigning - I see how it is annoying for someone with high-end painting style. But it works so well for drybrushing+washes/contrasts! Even a complete beginner can knock out this box in a week this way. And I'm pretty sure they aim for the crowd that wants to put painted armies on the tables fast rather than people who spend tens or even hundreds of hours painting a single skink. After all, if one is willing to put this much time into painting - what is an extra hour to sand off the raised 'trim' on fabric or make the banner/shield smooth for freehand?

I'm someone that really enjoys the building process so it doesn't really bother me, but I'm also not someone who is painting for a living. I'm not stuck on some harsh deadline. I'll build a mini over the course of a week using spru goo and sanding things back as well as putting extra little bits over spots that didn't cooperate through that process because I can. If the thing that decided if I paid rent was the mini being finished with paint, I too would begin hating models that need to be babied.

I've started using undercutting pretty aggressively in my 3D sculpts too: To cut down on the part count, fill impossible-to-paint areas, and make the prints sturdier (cheap resin is still brittle).

I can't remember the last time I put together a model that ended up with gaps in them. But building is my favorite part of the "hobby" process. If you take your time with them I find that most kits are machined so exactly that they do go together seamlessly. I've not put together the darkoath box so that might be one of the kits that has those errors in them. Most of the time though, if there is a gap or line in the model I find heavy primer does a good job sealing those areas.

Totally agree. I enjoy painting and I always get hyped for new kits. Then I open the box and see a bunch of snipping and sanding and gap filling and lose momentum. The best part of the GW metal era was the speed which you could get to painting. I would honestly pay an extra dollar per GW model to have them assembled and ready to go after some light prep.

I had a building issue with one of the new kroxigors from the seraphon range, I wanted to make the over head swing pose and because of how awkward you have to glue the parts in, one arm endened up not fitting at all! I even double checked I used the right parts... and after having to pull the mini apart before the glue had set I still could not get it to fit right. I must say I do prefer the old GW plastic range then there new more dinamic look. Its ok for hero models but for rank and rile troops I do find it annoying how it takes me hours to build them.

Honestly, your Grimdark Black Templar video got me back into Warhammer painting (I was just going to put together some orc minis for my IRL DND group), so after watching you clean up mould lines and gap fill, I cannot now unsee what you are talking about when I assemble minis. You ruined me, I blame you, and my OCD will not let me "just skip that part".

Interesting thoughts, I have definitely found building minis has gotten harder in recent years. I have dyslexia and I just get overwhelmed trying to cut out 12 bits for one dude. Takes a long time.

This is why TOW has been so amazing, I feel like I'm not slogging through armies. I'm enjoying some of the simplicity and good results I can get, rather than being like crap I missed that strap on that slightly differently positioned model.

I invest a lot of time in the preparation of the model. Sometimes more than the painting. It's a part of the hobby that I enjoy. Good to note that I don't game, just paint for display.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience. It's very interesting to me. I really like building the minis. To me it's relaxing and I can completely zone out and get lost without any of the pressure I feel towards choosing "the best possible painting scheme". There is nothing I need to decide except what weapons/arms/heads I'd like where. So, I can simply enjoy building the mini because there is nothing I can do wrong (might just be that I trust my ability to remove mold lines and fill gaps more than choosing paint schemes and actual painting, though). So, I'm always a bit sad when I have built everything.

I was talking to a friend about this exact feeling the other day. Thank you for putting it so eloquently.

I do not spend any time in getting rid of moldlines etc, I just want to have fun. One thing about the parts of the 3D printed models in comparison with the old minis, is that they are cutted in pieces that "make no sense", so you end up with lines that "make no sense". Old space marines were 9 or 10 parts (head, backpack, front and back of the torso, legs, two arms, two shoulder plates and the weapon for the ones not carrying boltgun and chainsword). But the parts make... anatomical sense? So you did not get many lines in "weird" places.

@anthonylulham3473

Ай бұрын

i much prefer the anatomical mould lines. they are easier to check up on. each model has them in the same place. pushfit bodies are all unique and have mould lines in hidden areas that i frequently miss

The thought of prepping, cleaning, assembling and gaping filling modern kits puts me off building newer stuff and as a result not painting as much. As stunning as the minis are, the amount of work involved before even priming is daunting. It’s one of many contributing factors to how I’ve been falling out of love with warhammer the past couple years.

I love all the extra bits on the sprue and I’m happy about model companies constantly pushing what they can do in a kit.

I haven’t had an issue with the gap lines you’re talking about. I just use Tamiya cement and hold the parts together and the plastic melts the gap closed

Assembling is my favourite part of the process, but I completely agree with you - because overdesigning gets in the way of conversion and kitbashing.

I had this exact problem with the kruelboyz chaman. I had a ton of issues fitting the pieces and now it has so many gaps to fill

Yeah I really feel the same. While on the one hand the minis are so much better than they used to be on the other hand I always try to simplify them. The first I usually do with most gw minis is to shave of a lot of the details to give the remaining details some room to shine and to give the model a less cluttered and better readable silhouette.

💯...I also wish they would pay more attention to where the model parts join the sprue...it shits me to tears when they join a SM pauldron, for example, right in the middle of the smooth rounded surface! ...just put it on the edge ffs

I just spent 3 days installing over 30 magnets in my world eaters hellbrute. I love building warhammer

Also: pity we're not neighbours, because I love building models but hate painting them... I guess it's the difference between engineers and artists. Engineers love creating structures, but can't see what's missing with a black and white drawing, whereas Artists only see colours

I'm fine with good enough-usually. I did however have a Leman russ recently who's front hull weapon mount didn't fit all that great and tried out sculpting weld beads for the first time, which went quite well! I don't like huge mould lines but can definitely overlook minor ones and that basically covers near anything at infantry sized models.

Definitely something I can see, working on Star wars legion, Crisis protocol, burrows and badgers and other minis I find them much more enjoyable to work on. The building is also so much quicker, in part due to the number of peices and gaps but also the deeper more dense sprue seem to cause far more flash which needs cleaning.

Its why ive been getting into retro minis from the earlier eras like anything pre 2000s.. Lately been tackling the jes goodwin original skaven and they qre alot of fun to paint