I need "talk that talk" and "alcohol free" formula back

@Dramacon7

25 күн бұрын

Me too, I hope Twice can find their own sound and concepts without JYP pandering to one audience.

@trxxa_

22 күн бұрын

the new songs are amazing too thoo like with-youth is kind of about friendship

@quit4everxx

22 күн бұрын

@@trxxa_yeah and i really enjoy it

@reggiebell7291

21 күн бұрын

@@trxxa_ngl I’m super shallow and while lyrics can easily elevate the song, I’m not going to want to listen to it if it’s not interesting. Alcohol-Free and Talk That Talk were sonically interesting. Set Me Free was… something zzz. I Got You and One Spark from With You-th are the weakest of the whole EP for me. They’re so generic. Bloom is THAT GIRL.

@trxxa_

20 күн бұрын

@@reggiebell7291 i honestly don’t fully agree with you about the with-YOUTH ALBUM

also important to remember Jihyo herself said the members didn’t want to do cute stuff forever as they aged.

@deefraux4012

Ай бұрын

Yea, I think this is what is missed from choujimi... The more you age, the more unlikely you'll be unsuited to a concept (Crayon Pop apparently had a 30 y.o-ish member in their line, but they still somehow were able to pull off cute concept. Well, maybe it's because they mix cute with quirky so the concept suitability is expanded. But that's another story) Twice did aegyeo in their beginnings, not only they're fitting themselves to the market audience, but also to the members' age. But now they're mature women, so a no aegyeo is pretty much what the girls need... They change their aegyeo to woman empowerment, which apparently is appealing to western market. So yeah, they change their direction. Though, I clearly get what choujimi said here (like- their shifting is somehow too dry? Like- okay, they're favored by the western audience now, but their substance is pretty much in danger as a group)... I think this is why JYP tends to make another groups rather than changing direction. He probably is aware that changing Twice's direction is quite risky, so he starts making groups like Itzy and VCHA (like what choujimi said in the end-ish of this video: the marketing intention of a group)...

@PiscesEnfp

Ай бұрын

But they started changing and made a transition that started gradually with fancy and feel special and could go on slowly but progressing on the mature side from that, without trying too hard to appeal to the western market. I think that the attempt to do both things is what went wrong... or, at least, not as good as it would go

@meldydayfan429

Ай бұрын

​@@deefraux4012he literally said that releases like talk that talk and basics are what twice should be doing mature but faithful to their sound or they should do something like alcohol free mature but not chasing trends instead using a western sound and creating a song that fits you that has your own flavor

@cezaneehyman1776

Ай бұрын

@@deefraux4012 He literally talked abt the girls going for a more chic concept wth a song like talk that talk

@sarah0325_

Ай бұрын

isn't that what he was saying though? Go down the route with songs like basics? bring in more of an rnb vibe to their music to bring that maturity with out totally erasing their music

One thing I think these companies fail to understand is that most kpop stans were drawn to kpop due to it's uniqueness from other music industries. I personally liked kpop because it was very different from the culture I grew up with and found it interesting and fun. And due to them changing and taking away this uniqueness,many fans are leaving because what they entered the fandom for is slowly fading away. Kpop is just trying hard to be something it's not and can never be. They are losing the fans they already have in attempt to appeal and get validation from the west. Such a bad marketing strategy ngl

@winterbelle03

Ай бұрын

couldn't have said it better myself.

@takecarebilly_

Ай бұрын

and also the language itself, we do appreciate hangul!!!

@dawnanddust

Ай бұрын

@@takecarebilly_yes!

@arisu707

Ай бұрын

I was a once during their younger years and as I grew older I began to see that most groups transition into a western style of music which seem bland for the western audience. I mean the reason why kpop was loved is because of its over the top aesthetic and ridiculous chorus/beat that you barely can't see anywhere.

@Riileyrose

Ай бұрын

I agree. I’ve been with KPop since 2013. Back then, it still had a very distinct KPop sound. And it wasn’t for everyone. Certain groups like Bigbang had songs “normies” could like, but generally was still a little different. I felt so at home there. Although I do like some songs that come out now, it’s not for the same reasons as I did back then

I think Jihyo's single suffered from this alone. I think the rest of the album (minus Talk about it) is great- shows vulnerability, the musical direction, songwriting and composing aspect. Killing me good didn't reach the Korean audience and while having some noticeable moments outside of Korea, it didn't manage to show longevity. That's why Nayeon's Pop worked, cause it was unapologetically K-pop, from sound, lyrics, choreography point, colours mixed with nostalgic feelings towards early Twice.

@dawnanddust

Ай бұрын

Yes that was my problem with Jihyo’s solo and why pop did so much better

@onceortwiceooh

Ай бұрын

I completely agree. Pop is essentially kpop through and through. While Jihyo’s KMG feels like a song from the west that isn’t really noteworthy and it was a self fulfilling prophecy

@lizzyzliz

Ай бұрын

I blame lindgren, everytime I see that they have produced a twice song a part of me dies

@greeng6914

Ай бұрын

@@lizzyzlizlindgren literally made i cant stop me, cry for me, scientist. They make a lot of Korean hits for other groups too like Run away by txt, World and Don Quixote by seventeen, and bts mikrokosmos. I think just because there were a couple songs that felt off for you doesnt mean lindgren is completely off from twices style.

@AB-yk2pq

Ай бұрын

​@@greeng6914Even Scientist wasn't that well received by fans. He and his wife are alright when they're producing once a while, not every single comeback.

The drastic switch between aespas kr release and eng singles are baffling

@TuhinaSaysHi

Ай бұрын

It’s always the strangest thing ever, the west would eat up the sci-fi hyper pop style asepa has but they have to go with the basic bare bones pop song 😢

@xrrgr

Ай бұрын

@@TuhinaSaysHi i’m sorry but.. no they wouldn’t 😭 a song like next level would never become a hit here. the genre isn’t the issue, the executive is, it doesn’t suit western tastes but also neither do their english releases.

@deannyc

Ай бұрын

Right esp when their jp release was pretty good

@skittychuu

Ай бұрын

@@xrrgrIdk, I’m pretty sure the west would like a song like hold on tight, lingo, maybe illusion too. It doesn’t have to be apart of the main lore/storyline, maybe a sub plot so nobody complains lol

@DP-mv7ph

Ай бұрын

its not just their eng songs tbh... after lee soo man left SM aespa completely changed... they left Kwangya asap and are now in the real world and their aes are nowhere to be seen and dont even get me started on the bsides.. the bsides on the savage album were all so aespa like and the whole album was a cohesive body of work. after lee soo man left, their albums have no cohesion whatsoever anymore and they're now making basic pop songs like their new highlight medley sounds awful. Lee soo man was the creative mind behind Aespa and after he left all the groups originality left with him. Like one of their upcoming songs "bahamas" like really Aespa?? that song sounds like Sabrina Carpenter could've sung it and i dont mean that as a compliment like they were supposed to make music like björk and sophie and now they have a horrible pop punk song on their upcoming album (Live My Life) the downgrade is insane

I don’t even know why they bother releasing English versions, half the reason I enjoy K-pop is because I have no idea what they’re even saying

@user-vv7hc7kb5o

Ай бұрын

" I like my music dmb and stupid just having no thoughts in my head" that's basically what you're saying

@SovietSisterLicker

Ай бұрын

@@user-vv7hc7kb5o yes

@ivetgeorgieva8888

Ай бұрын

I feel you on that one. I got disappointed way too many times when searching for the lyric video of a song I like, only to realise it´s a generic love song.

@skinnyrat4277

Ай бұрын

@@user-vv7hc7kb5o ah so classical music or any other form of music without lyrics is dumb and stupid

@inplane9970

Ай бұрын

@@user-vv7hc7kb5o People enjoy K-Pop because of the clever rhymes and rhythms when mixing English and Korean phrases. You'll hear a Korean phrase that is seemingly English-sounding, but it's meant to sound similar and give the same meaning. That creativity is what makes K-Pop so satisfying.

One thing that's not mentioned is that once fans lose interest in a group, it takes extra effort to get them back. When a song doesn't chart as well, it's not necessarily because of that song, it might be because of the last song or few songs. Even if they were to return to form, doesn't mean it'll chart as well. For a portion of the fan base, the momentum is gone, the enthusiasm has dwindled, and they're moving on. They'll still like TWICE but they'll be more interested in their old work, rather than paying attention to their new work. When a legacy group has new releases, it can't be viewed in isolation, there is context.

@onceortwiceooh

Ай бұрын

Exactly

@Paolinkinparkfan

Ай бұрын

yes, the losing interest or fandom burn-out part is so important! as a moa, i've witnessed how TXT's Chasing that Feeling took all the damage from the Back for More and Do it like that eng singles.. we as a fandom worked so hard to promote and give numbers to both collabs (cause BigHit is pretty much useless) that we were left ABSOLUTELY burnt-out when the actual album came out. We now joke about how our numbers were "depressing" during the Freefall era... All these companies are so desperately money-hungry that they end up damaging the main thing that keeps them afloat, the fans

@SquirtlePower809

Ай бұрын

How do you explain their continued growth and how each album keeps outperforming the one before? I mean this legit, not in a snarky way. Like factually they are bigger today than ever before.

@helenarcos4175

Ай бұрын

​@@SquirtlePower809I respectfully disagree, Twice is an established group with a large fanbase so in terms of album sales and tours they are going to be fine, I think what this discussion is about is how their music has been stuck, except for talk that talk which for me is the most Twice song they have released in a long time. In my opinion JYP did not know how to transition the girls to a more mature concept and as I said before they stuck them both musically and in the essence of the group. I blame JYP since this also happens to the other groups under their label.

@hongphuc1704

16 күн бұрын

@@helenarcos4175 imo Twice don't suit for an empowering image, because they don't know how to deliver it themselves. The way they deliver some latest songs sounds the same as the way they did in a cute concept. You can hear Twice's rap lines execute their parts poorly in Set me Free. Jihyo is the one who could do her assignment well in every comeback. I just wish they could take some time to improve their singing or rapping to express their messages more convincingly. Moreover, I hope Twice will not be the one who has to chase the music trend for their song choices, they should be given songs which are based from their own DNA.

I’ve been saying this for awhile, so I’ll narrow down my thoughts. Kpop companies can’t and shouldn’t change a groups concept of image to be more marketable in the west, like they do in The Jappanese market . People in the west reverted to Kpop has niche to fulfill spaces in-between other niches. Blackpink never had a concept change or that heavy of a sound change and that’s why they did and do so well in the west. Blackpink’s concept and performance style is also very suited to western audiences already. YG made them with all audiences in mind and you could see that with how they shoved Jennie and Lisa into the front of promotions and kept Rose and Jisoo in back, since Rose and Jisoo are suited to the Korean general public. Looking at what Lesserfim and Aespa at Coachella, they both didn’t have training in preforming with western audiences or stages and they got torn down. I think most people are leaving kpop because kpop companies are trying to hard to shove pandering to western audiences.

@bopete3204

Ай бұрын

I mean, people really like Boy With Luv though in my experience, and it is a pretty big departure from BTS. Butter and Yet To Come seem to get more critique but Boy With Luv seems generally regarded as a really good pop song. BTS solos have also done really well despite not really being the same sound as classic BTS. If Blackpink released more songs they'd also have to change sounds at some point or else eventually people will tire of too much of the same thing. I And like, aespa and Le Sserafim are both still very popular?

@CatNagTaylorsVersion

Ай бұрын

@@bopete3204 yes but they got ripped to shreds with the Coachella performances because there companies didn’t know what to do

@CatNagTaylorsVersion

Ай бұрын

@@bopete3204 there’s more but I’m still typing

@tm5brown520

Ай бұрын

THAT'S WHAT I TRYING TO EXPRESD ON CHOUJIMI'S IVE HEYA VIDEO

@bopete3204

Ай бұрын

@@CatNagTaylorsVersion The topic of discussion is whether westernization is hurting groups though. Coachella is just an incident of Kpop drama that hits every popular group. It's not that different than the drama about Blackpink tour performances that people stir up. Actual incidences of westernization hurting groups' career arcs doesn't really exist in my opinion. There have been plenty of awkward sound changes over the years of all types. And then there's a lot of people spinning their personal dislike for some comebacks into a broader narrative. TWICE's recent comebacks have specific issues that are related to westernization but not inherent to it. Comebacks like I Can't Stop Me did very well internationally. There is no need to concern troll about Western-friendly songs killing Kpop.

JYPe has always had this problem with integrating their artists with the western audiences, from fumbling wonder girls, hot and cold with Twice, completely losing the plot with Itzy and now shoot blindly with stray kids, for stray kids' sake i hope this single gives them what they want from it.

@s.s.c0110

Ай бұрын

In Stray Kids situation, 3Racha luckily produces their music so it sounds more authentic. However, with the raise of 5 Gen, it’s up to them to figure how to transition the Stray Kids in this new age in Kpop.

@lastmimzy2606

Ай бұрын

@@s.s.c0110 In 3racha we trust🧎

@idkymhere

Ай бұрын

And even NMIXX They seemed to have trained to be a global gg seeing how many members can speak English & Spanish But JYP is Messing them up more n more Despite being the most talented group in 4th gen and one of the best vocalists in k-pop They are still struggling to achieve the heights they need to achieve Nd a huge part of this is because of JYPE JYPE know How to create one of the most talented artists in the industry but sucks at managing them , they only did a good job with ITZY initially nd now even that is going down the drain

@lastmimzy2606

Ай бұрын

@@idkymhere JYPE sucks majorly at promotions, even their teasers suck, Nmixx have the best concepts of all their groups and this is probably thanks to the subcompany running them yet they're still not promoted appropriately. I love JYPE artists, they're so easy to like personally, I'll wait for them to get back to top.

@meek9168

21 күн бұрын

@@s.s.c0110aunthencity doesnt mean its good.

Did you just forget about the feels? The chokehold the feels had on the west should be studied. They were playing the feels in the CLUBS like twice needs to go back to doing more like the feels everyone was eating her uppppp

@TheCottonCandy707

Ай бұрын

Because it had that signature twice sound

@Sistarhyo

Ай бұрын

It was catchy, fun, and came out at the right time lol. The west LOVES to play a song OUT when they love it lol!

@iloveyoonaa

Ай бұрын

The Feels is still really popular these days. I hear it often in restaurants and shops.

@hezelia

Ай бұрын

The feels had that Cupid sensation, not as big but the song, the vibes, and people just love an easy song to listen to, like Cupid.

@MineralTown

Ай бұрын

i likes the feels but i've never heard it played here tbh lol

THANK YOU THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING. Like there's no Issue in promoting in the West or having English of their versions of their songs or even making English music, that's fine and a good marketing tactic. But my Issue personally is how much some Kpop groups try to emulate SO FIERCELY what's popular on the West Pop scene in the dryest way possible, to the point that it's giving nothing to really work with the music besides being Top 40 Pop radio music. As a Queen would say: "Where is the flavor in this. I taste nothing"

@bopete3204

Ай бұрын

Is that really what this essay is saying? I Can't Stop Me is listed as a song that's similar to a popular Western song from a previous year and it's very well-regarded. The essay is mostly about how TWICE's English versions or Korean title tracks are weakening them lyrically.

@xrrgr

Ай бұрын

@@bopete3204 i think people forget at its core kpop has always been western inspired, i mean the first kpop group was legit made to be a backstreet boys copy… the issue is just low quality music.

@jbbaladad95

Ай бұрын

@@xrrgr Precisely. It’s all just pop music. Pop music generally relies on trends. The name of the game has been how quickly they can hop on a trend, how much they can make out of it, and how to package all of it to appeal to as many people as possible. Naturally, that process will lead to plenty of watered-down content as the end product.

@elenipapadea7901

Ай бұрын

​​@@xrrgrI understand what people are saying but Kpop doesn't really have its own sound, it derives from the Western influence as you said. The difference I think is the language and culture

@smhXD21

9 күн бұрын

​@@xrrgryes but it's always had Korean/Asian influence. Now they're just trying to copy everything from Ariana to Nicki to Cardi and Megan. If we wanted that we'd stay watching ppl like that

I couldn't figure out why I wasn't enjoying Set Me Free or One Spark as much, and this makes a lot of sense.

@dawnanddust

Ай бұрын

Same I really liked talk that talk but the last 2 comebacks haven’t brought in anything new

@Anika9884

Ай бұрын

Twice is going have a Japanese comeback and album at July I am sure it's going to be better than One Spark because the concept photos are so dreamy and mermaid core like

@inplane9970

Ай бұрын

One Spark is pretty fitting when you imagine it's celebrating TWICE's longevity. It really gives me Feel Special vibes where the song feels like it's meant for them and how they express their love for one another. Definitely leagues above Set Me Free in terms of execution.

@The-Mediator

Ай бұрын

Nah I like one spark but set me free is a little mid.

@TheCottonCandy707

Ай бұрын

I figured out immediately. It's sooooo western

I never realized the translation aspect of their songs and how that effects the effort put into the lyrics which is a shame

i personally believe that western audiences dont even really WANT these groups to become to hyper-westernised. like part of the reason groups like TWICE and BTS got traction in western markets was because their sound wasn't like your Ariana Grandes and Taylor Swifts. They were them! And frankly, JYP should realise we fell in love with TWICE back when TWICE was not even trying to be a global girl group. Their identity is not incompatible with global audiences, it very much is IMHO. TWICE releasing English-language singles and translations is inherently fine, but what JYP, TWICE's team, and TWICE themselves need to do is evaluate how much pf a role pandering plays in lyrical content. I think the best course of action is to either simply just write the Korean-language tracks to their full power, translatability be damned, and then continue writing good English singles, OR, balance it out. Kpop groups should not sacrifice their identity to pander to the western hemisphere, especially since it's clear that western audiences enjoy these groups even if they have a very Korea-aimed strategy.

@thekawaiidemon9015

Ай бұрын

We don't

@mmiek796

26 күн бұрын

I feel like producers saw how bts has risen to the top in the US with their westernized songs and tried to do the same except now they are just losing kpop identity all together

@Dramacon7

25 күн бұрын

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said they should write Korean songs to their full power & just have stand alone English tracks. If they really want to promote to the western hemisphere at the same time, that would make the most sense. Hopefully they won't lose their music identity in the process.

@user-vv7hc7kb5o

24 күн бұрын

@@mmiek796 and when you get asked what "westernized sound" they have you're gonna answer (very predictably btw) their 3 english songs out of their 400+ track discography.........pls come up with something else it's getting boring, dragged out and tiringggg

@imtherealone.6268

2 күн бұрын

So who came up with the conclusion that their sacrificing their identity? Shouldn't artists be allowed to try new concepts or do you expect them to be an certain era forever? I'm from the west, but I could care less if they're hyper-westernized or not. It actually makes good makes good mashups if you want me to be honest. But to say their sacrificing their identity.... not even sure how that conclusion is even made because it focuses on side vs. what the artists want. And what the fans want vs. want the artists are going to be 2 different things. And to be honestly, during Twice's comeback (thought they lost to Les Serrafim) at M Countown, there were quite a lot of people supporting them. And I don't think that was a western audience, that seemed solely fans from Korea. And also, their 8th anniversary fanmeet was actually held in Seoul, it wasn't held here in the states. Long story short, music is changing whether we like it or not. I mean, do you expect Twice stay in the What is love/Heartshaker/Cheer Up or the Yes or Yes era in 2024? They've grown out of it and it would be sort of strange since most of the members are almost 30. They're humans... they're going to mature....

when you mention set me free i can’t help but think about how we need more songs like girls like us

@melcitri

Ай бұрын

OMG YES! finally someone who's talking about this gem

@cqsccmia

Ай бұрын

yess i adore girls like us

@mala4222

Ай бұрын

exactly

@mewybee

19 күн бұрын

we need more charli xcx demos in kpop

@AgussxVenus

11 күн бұрын

i would love to hear a Korean version with the og lyrics Charli XCX made, Fifth Harmony's demo sounds so good but the lyrics are also great, Twice kinda censored the original lyrics.

One thing I would add is that I'm personally a little sick of pre release singles. I tend to like the songs themselves a lot, so that's not the problem. But I don't even usually associate the pre release with the album by the time it actually drops. If you want to make multiple MV's, I'm more than fine with that. But I think pre releases tend to highlight any lacking cohesion in the actual comeback and fuels comparison about what is actually "the best" and "deserving" of the majority's attention.

@tm5brown520

Ай бұрын

I agree, but Super Shy by nwjns needed that pre release. Needed it for Attention too. Attention was iconic because it was the debut with no warning, but Super Shy was lowkey lackluster and needed the pre release to stand out more before the rest of Get Up came out.

@bopete3204

Ай бұрын

I think Welcome To My World and Allergy are good examples of pre-release actually being pre-releases that set up the theme of the main release. Often pre-releases do end up as another title track though. I think it's a context dependent thing that people have gotten a bit too loose with.

@nayeonchantix

Ай бұрын

@@bopete3204 I agree with those examples working actually. That's a good point.

@nayeonchantix

Ай бұрын

@@tm5brown520 I'm ngl. I don't really listen to NewJeans, so I can't say if I agree or not, but that's still fair :)

@appleworldinc.8937

Ай бұрын

I think the issue with pre release singles in K-pop is that the album is so short it usually doesn’t justify it, unlike western artists who can drop 2 or 3 singles and still have ten new songs on release. That, combined with how some prerelease singles are entirely different concepts that are hardly explored. I’m all for more MVs but I feel like the way it’s done needs to be retooled

western audiences went to k-pop for the k-pop sound, not for more western songs.

@user-sd9sn7wf3o

6 күн бұрын

Wdym? Kpop has always been westernised, it's literally American pop/hiphop/r&b songs sing in Korean. It doesn't distinctively sound like Korean, unlike Jpop who has a distinctive Japanese sound. That's also the reason Kpop is more popular worldwide than Jpop

@rg_888

5 күн бұрын

@@user-sd9sn7wf3o That's absolutely not true. Or maybe it was in the beginning, only. Find me any successful Western-originated group making songs like What Is Love and Cheer Up; or ASAP and RUN2U (STAYC); or Rough (GFRIEND); or Up & Down (EXID).

@yoonisverse

3 күн бұрын

@@user-sd9sn7wf3o and whats J-pops unique sound? We could claim anything from around the globe can be tied back to america and all of their music subcultures. K-pop has a larger amount of songs that have a more sugar-like sound. take Gee by Girls Generation, its light and sugary and really popular. Thats what I mean by a k-pop sound. If you have taken a step outside of america or just become aware of your surroundings, you’d realize how much of an impact america and american pop culture has had on the world, good or bad, wether you like it or not. So of course they’d take inspiration from american sub-genres, cause thats what audiences have come to like, korean or american. But thats not to say they didn’t create something new out of those things, just like you said “american pop/hiphop/r&b”, they created a new sound combining sub-genres.

@3299m

3 күн бұрын

@@user-sd9sn7wf3oYou are missing the point. You would never hear songs like Red Flavor or Cheer Up in the west. Now groups release songs like Easy and Set Me Free to appeal to Americans. When people talk about k-pop westernization, they talk about how groups are actively trying to chart in the US. Almost no one was doing that before outside of a few times once or twice like Wonder Girls

For me I look at it as a tale of two methods: emulating western sounds after a group establishes themselves, and debuting with western soundscapes and promotional methods already in place. This is why to me, western promoted tracks from BTS and Twice sound so removed from their other songs. Blackpink and NewJeans debuted with the plan to both make music and promote with the west in mind. I think you could make the argument BTS debuted with a very western hip-hop sound but I would disagree, their production even for 2013-ish was quite dated, I still love No More Dream though.

@bopete3204

Ай бұрын

I think this just traces back to the fundamental problem of how an artist can evolve over time while retaining existing fans (or gaining more new ones than they lose) rather than anything specific about Westernization though. Blackpink and NewJeans just haven't released so many songs that they need to change to keep things fresh yet (and in Blackpink's case they might not ever)

@user-vv7hc7kb5o

Ай бұрын

Nahh some of y'all must not be alright because is hiphop/rap, rock, rnb, jazz, pop, neo soul etc etc not western 😭😭😭😭💀 WHERE DO Y'ALL THINK THOSE GENRES CAME FROMMM BTS especially is just making and releasing the music they want to release dawg omg free the guys from these discussions 😭😭💀 like I'm so tired ITS BEEN NEARLY 4 YEARS MOVE ON IM BEGGING

@Timothee-101

Ай бұрын

@@user-vv7hc7kb5owouldn’t those genres bc considered western since they were created by African Americans and America is considered a western country

@aornivamasood9606

Ай бұрын

@@user-vv7hc7kb5o THESE GENRES ARE BLUEPRINTED BY AFRICAN AMERICANS....AKA A WESTERN COUNTRY

@user-vv7hc7kb5o

Ай бұрын

@@Timothee-101 I said how are xyz genres not western..... we're saying the same thing friend 😭 and to expand on it - kpop is not a genre. It never has been, it's an industry. Kpop is an umbrella term because kpop can be any single song of any single genre under the sun lol

Not choujimi feeding us very well these days, no complaints from me

@Mylife-clueless

Ай бұрын

Right? I'm so happy🥺

@yeri.stagram

Ай бұрын

Me too

I really hope Nayeon’s upcoming album doesn’t suffer from this and that they keep the Kpop aspect that they had in her first comeback

@kerosama7726

26 күн бұрын

I don't know if you listened to the snippet of the TT by the time I'm replying, but it feels like it's going to be a good song!! It seems to be reminiscent of the old school kpop sounds emulating the R&B/ hip hop trends of the West but with its own singular flavour

@turtlerabbitkim7071

25 күн бұрын

@@kerosama7726 Yess I did and it sounds so good!! Nayeon is going to save the summer yet again ☀️

@margarettesafiya6908

8 күн бұрын

have you listened to it already? 😅

@turtlerabbitkim7071

8 күн бұрын

@@margarettesafiya6908 yes I did and it wasn’t what I expected but she definitely rocked the cooler concept of this comeback!! The fan chant also perfectly suits it. Let’s stream!! 😄

@NURS3Y

7 күн бұрын

@@kerosama7726 it really just sounds like crazy in love by beyonce

I think that Twice’s signature sound really fits what is popular with both Korean and western markets right now. They should try to take advantage of that. Twice still has so much that they can achieve. They just need to select title tracks that are true to them as a group. I think that Twice can make music that is both mature, fits the Korean and western markets, and still has their signature sound. A really great example of this is The Feels. The Feels stays true to their signature Twice sound, but is more mature than their past releases. With You-th is such a strong album. All of the songs follow the same distinct sound in my opinion. One Spark is the only song that doesn’t really fit the rest of the album. In an interview the members said that One Spark was supposed to be a title track for a previous album, but they ended up not using it. I think JYPE needs to be making title tracks specifically for Twice instead of using rejected songs that were supposed to be on previous albums. Now that the Twice members have more of a voice in the direction that their music is going in they definitely seem to want to lean more into a mature sound. I think they should continue making music that makes them happy and that they feel comfortable performing now that they are in this stage of their career.

Honestly, twice can actually fit the current western music market very well with few subtle changes in their discography, they dont have to go overboard. Look at a song like esspresso, isnt this something that twice will pull off easily. West has become way more open to the soft girl blush cheeks and pretty women asthetics and twice rather than aceepting that are going towards the powerful and rebel girl asthetic with their music. Cupid, magnetic, super shy is the kind of sound and asthetic that will be perfect for twice. the coquttee trend and the pink obsession paired with soft vocals and bright concept is all twice needs. Idk what jyp is aiming for twice in the west but the formula is right there. Alcohol free is the concept they should have gone for, that mixed with latin and rnb and a little bit afrobeat would be something people would love from them. instead we get one spark and set me free. I despise them,(not the song, the releases). tzuyu, sana, nayeon are the kind of people who would fit the elegant soft girl side, plzz jyp do something.

As a Blackpink fan I don't find Twice's westernization as an exactly bad thing. Yeh, it's a bit selfish, but from my point of view it's sort of salvation. Biggest problem of BP is lack of content. 28+- songs in 7 years and almost zero of other group activities is laughable. Yes it's part of strategy, but its not enaught to ... stay conected. There are other groups which try to lure us away with similar concept, but mostly they are newbies, so I don't find them as interesting as older idols. So when I look at Twice 5th world tour concert (Furuoka day one for example) I get everithing what I'm looking for. Amazing show, talented and gorgeous idols with with a tangible background in their prime and catchy songs.

The problem isn't with westernization or english songs. The problem comes from fans that can't handle the fact that these artists need to be artists and want to try new sounds, new genres, and new themes. It's natural for many musicians to want to step out of their comfort zone and do something different. To many fans, if they don't like the song or theme or sound....they will completely give up or tear down the group instead of thinking "I don't vibe with this...maybe I will for the next one". They also don't buy the albums and listen to all the songs to hear how they have experimented and how they still stayed the same. Fans also want to keep idols and groups in their debut mindset and forget that these idols and artists are growing up around different sounds and just growing up period. Groups are supposed to stay in their little boxes that fans have kept them in and not let them out. That is the main problem.

@javieraaravena

26 күн бұрын

This is it, wanting everything to stay the same becomes boring, you can't expect artists to be ok with always doing the same thing

@haerincore.4572

23 күн бұрын

This makes sense

@SevKP

23 күн бұрын

Real

@ShayJoshJvy

22 күн бұрын

Literally

@haroldk724

13 күн бұрын

Totally what I have been saying right along...WELL stated, because the narrow minded fandom's think.which is Not Their Call "Do not want their group to step out off their Box" because if they do They Feel they are losing control . There is not an artist around that is going make it , if they do not change things up from time to Time ..... Got to stop the "Cookie Cutter Concept .....

One spark is definitely an odd one. A friend of mine pointed out that it sounds like it could be a Japanese single and it clicked!

Imo as an army i think that the context of the english trilogy is very important to note before criticizing bts's "westernization" it wasnt really an attempt to become big but actually a gift given to them none of the 3 english songs were written with the members. Its also fair to understand that their plans were kinda thrown out with the pandemic (tour and then enlistment which ended up not happening like they planned) they were so burnt out and just wanted to push out something happy after BE

@user-vv7hc7kb5o

Ай бұрын

*Joon has songwriting credit for Butter

@sameehakawsar518

8 күн бұрын

god thank you. the way he was talking ab the 3 eng singles in this video was driving me crazy. twice and bts arent even close to comparable in this context bc bts were doing throwaway gift songs that were easy, unattached, and impersonal as a time filler while they figured out how to get their derailed plans back on track after the pandemic hit. it wasn't at all a concerted effort to gain traction in the west like it is with twice, because bts gained western traction with their own signature sound way back in 2017. westernization did not influence bts' career at all, ffs they started their group w an inherently western musical sound - hiphop

@alizabethv15

7 күн бұрын

@@sameehakawsar518THIS!! i 1000% agree with you!

I would say (g)-idle is another pretty good example of K-pop groups with a big international fan base but promote heavily in Korea and whose songs aren’t impacted by westernization (unless someone is a xenophobe then yes soyeons not perfect English will bother them and yes they’ll talk about it relentlessly on twitter)

@dawnanddust

Ай бұрын

The way that fate is a all Korean song (I think) and it did so well is proof that songs with more Korean CAN do well

@dghsdjk44

Ай бұрын

people talking about soyeon’s butchering of aave is not xenophobic jesus christ…

@rubyrubacus9787

Ай бұрын

​@@dghsdjk44But targeting her specifically all the time and saying that her English is horrible for every comeback is xenophobic. It's not her first language ,but she is doing fine.

@miiaring

Ай бұрын

English is not my first language and I still cringe with some of her songs. And it's literally her job, she have to put some effort learning English if she wants write in English. Is not that hard​@@rubyrubacus9787

@zaraahmed2903

Ай бұрын

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@dghsdjk44 soyeon is literally one of the only kpop rappers who doesn’t use aave It’s just her grammar that’s a bit off People love to make shit up

isn't all of kpop- at its core-westernized?

@society7149

22 күн бұрын

And that’s what makes these complaints so dumb 😭😭kpop fans don’t want to accept that their interest is fetishization (to an extent ofc)

@fisticuffs12

18 күн бұрын

depends on how you see it. pop is a global genre so being attached to the specific sounds of a different market is pretty valid. but it's kinda like asking isn't american pop swedish. like you can make that argument but i'm not sure it's the best semantic position when "american pop" is a pretty useful term to discuss the specific tastes of that market.

I hope that twice ends up going for music for title tracks that is more like their b-sides. I love their b sides and i genuinely believe if they stop looking for specific viral sounding songs fit for specific audiences and go for their favorite songs in general in the albums not just to perform but the best sounding

Basically what he tryna say is that Alcohol free is that girl and he is right 🫂

@seukos_k

16 күн бұрын

LOL PERIOD

They don't realize westerners like being in niches. Not a lot of people want it mainstream. I like the music in korean. None of the western kpop fans i know ever are extra excited over an english release

@danielmendonza03

9 күн бұрын

The feels is they major sucess in this decade

9:40 BTS „lost the plot“ in 2020 and 2021 BECAUSE it was NOT THE PLAN to be active as a group after MOTS 7 for a few years. When you really look into it, it makes so much sense that MOTS 7 was supposed to be BTS‘ last album („goodbye album“) before their inevitable break during their military enlistment. Every major year end award show performance of 2019 was a throwback to the beginnings of BTS‘ discography. They performed at MAMA 2019 N.O. and we‘re bulletproof pt. II and at MMA 2019 boy in luv (followed by boy with luv as the second half of the coin) and referenced almost every old title track during their performance (comeback trailer of school luv affair and O!RUL8,2?, no more dream, danger, I need u, fire, save me, fake love, N.O.). MOTS 7 features 3 early comeback trailer in their songs (intro persona: school luv affair, interlude shadow: dark&wild, outro ego: debut trailer) and ON (N.O. reversed) should become the peak of BTS’ spectacular dance choreography performances. MOTS 7 was made to be a full circle moment as the closure of the on going MOTS era and with the planned world tour the grand finale of the „first chapter“. CLEARLY BTS DID NOT initially PLAN for another „plot concept“ afterwards/beyond that. Then the pandemic happened and it was unclear when and if they could go on tour. So they waited. But they were in this weird transition period not knowing when they can go on tour and Jin having to go to the military in December of 2020. So on the one hand nobody at that time could predict how long Covid would prohibit in person concerts (weeks or months and the predictions frequently changed), but on the other hand the estimated time period as a full member group was limited till Jin‘s enlistment in December 2020. These few months didn’t allow to develop and establish a completely new concept for an album series like BTS prior work (usually created for a time frame of 2-3 years). Of course, in retrospective you know they stayed together as a group for two more years, but at this time nobody would have thought. And they couldn’t have stayed together for two more years if dynamite had not become this successful and the Korean government had not decided to pass the new law which allowed Jin to postpone his enlistment. So they tried to make the best out of the situation and released this fun disco dance track they were sent entirely in English. And it exploded. After that they made an introspective self produced album in Korean. I think after the success of dynamite they thought „okay let‘s give it a try and see how far we can get“ with this new dimension of global success. They had this unexpected time period where they couldn’t go on tour and suffered under the lack of in person interactions with their fans while performing. Imo they didn‘t want to enlist like „this“ during the pandemic. Then the Korean government passed the „BTS law“ and Jin didn’t have to enlist in 2020. So they had to (and COULD) wait as OT7 until things got better and they could perform in person in front of Armys for a last time AS A GROUP before leaving to the military individually. Therefore IT MAKES PERFECTLY SENSE for them at the time to release one or two single tracks (they want to do right now or maybe think will do well with its simple but catchy and happy pop/dance vibe in a depressing pandemic) and collaborate with other artists they like for individual songs instead of setting up a long term album series project with well thought out concepts needed to be build up over time like BTS usually did/does. Because they could not plan that far ahead and wanted/had to be able to adopt quickly to changing circumstances (like maybe be able to go on tour after all which sadly didn’t happen though). And they closed the „first chapter“ with a spectacular grammy performance, in person concerts and an anthology album and the Busan YTC „festival“ in 2022. And in the current „second chapter“ all members are making music they personally love and want to do. And imo BTS DIDN‘T LOOSE their essence or CORE IDENTITY. BTS didn’t have a singular signature style to begin with. They were ALWAYS evolving and trying new styles and just are a very VERSATILE GROUP. But I think you can always feel the „BTS essence“ in all of it. But there are always certain fans who became army in a specific era or favor a specific side, style or sound of BTS. And these fans always want more of there preferred version of BTS and maybe get scared (?) that they won‘t get that anymore in the future. These are the ones who say „Oh BTS have changed and I like the old BTS, I want the old BTS back“. But what „the old BTS“ is varies: some mean the old school hip hop „no more dream“ like BTS, and others mean the „dope and fire“ BTS or HYYH BTS, wings BS&T BTS, spring day/ you never walk alone BTS, love yourself BTS or MOTS BTS etc. BTS can appeal to so many different audiences with different preferences, but not everybody will like everything. You can like the rap and hip hop style, the emotional ballads, the pop songs, the edm tracks, the more „happy“ „party“ vibe, the darker vibe, the nostalgic vibe, the large scale dance choreographies with 50 backup dancers, the detailed choreos, the fun choreos or the vocal performances. Other groups (like for example Blackpink and Twice who are mentioned in the video) have a more „narrow“ signature concept and style of music. They also have of course variations and different types of songs, but all of it should fit to the general vibe and concept. So the fans you attract are more likely to like all of their music (and not say they don’t like the music anymore because the style stays the same). This means the fans might also disapprove with a „drastic“ style change they‘re not used to (which is what is happening with twice at the moment imo) But I don‘t think BTS has become „too westernized“. They are allowed to try different styles. That doesn’t means they will follow this path forever. And I think it shows. BTS did not only release disco pop tracks in English since dynamite. They released a self produced album in Korean called BE, a classic Japanese style ballad named film out, a Korean ballad with my youth, a R&B ballad with yet to come (resembling 2013/14 BTS) and with run bts a perfect (indescribable) unique BTS-esque song (in Korean). From the solo projects we got a wonderful range of different styles and songs suiting to each member. We got Jungkook with an English album targeting the western market that worked for the domestic and global market as well, Jimin with an (in house self produced) album, semi marketed to a western as well as a domestic audience which succeeded the expected outcome in the US, Jin with an English ballad written by Chris Martin that suits Jin’s style perfectly, as well as Hobi (primarily self produced) and Tae with albums directed at specific music genre fans and not primarily created to appeal to the general public (with no collabs), Yoongi with an (primarily self produced) Korean rap album and a title track featuring traditional Korean instruments and RM who featured an internationally unknown but domestic well acclaimed Korean rock singer on his title track (album primarily self produced as well). All of their musically choices suit the individual members perfectly and are the result of them experimenting with new sounds and styles as well as pursuing the music they want to do, imo. Disclaimer: I know the video is NOT about BTS and armys always spam at every opportunity with their opinions about BTS but if you mention BTS, I can voice my opinion and argue with the statement(s) made in the video. I originally clicked on the video because of Twice (I really like them as a group and their music) and I would mostly agree with the analysis. But as an army I have more of an „expertise“ on BTS than Twice (therefore I clicked on the video to learn more about Twice) and imo the case for BTS is a little different than for other groups like the ones mentioned in the video. Imo (not really an expert so not a qualified opinion here) Twice‘s current strategy is not bad. I like some songs and maybe they will release songs with a more „classic“ iconic Twice sound again in the future as well. Not everyone has to like every song all the time. Trying different sounds and styles is nothing bad and it doesn’t mean that they lost their core identity (just yet). They can go back to it. Maybe after a few comebacks you could say they lost their initial core identity. As of now it could be a phase of trying new styles and grow as a group and artists. Twice gets older, too. Maybe they want to look for a more mature concept or something like that (or follow current trends to not become „outdated“). And there is nothing wrong about that. They will get new fans who like the new concept and „older fans“ still have the past discography. Nobody is taking it away. But „the older fans“ are also allowed to voice their opinion and wish for their favored version of Twice. Imo you can make good music (as a K-pop artist) in English and Korean, you just have to make the effort and have the vision to create something good. Maybe the problem is like pointed out in the video, that the recent Korean tracks are written and produced with less effort than the English tracks. If this is the case, I would agree that this can create a serious problem for their balance as a group. Maybe the solution is like pointed out in the video to produce songs that are in itself complete and good and not try to make it work in both languages. Thanks for the video!

@user-vv7hc7kb5o

Ай бұрын

eat eat eat! BARSSS

@society7149

22 күн бұрын

SO TRUEE SPEAK ON IT

@_waybeom_

21 күн бұрын

atee

@liv6775

19 күн бұрын

i never thought of mots:7 in that way before reading this! and the way you mention BTS's versatility is very well-put as i struggle myself to put it into words. anyways, thank you for this insightful comment

@MSFsalah

11 күн бұрын

Girl this essay

you put exactly into words what is my problem with what i like to call musical "degeneration" from twice and other groups. to me, all of their releases after 'more & more' seemed like unispired versions of their overall identity and it only got more apparent with time. the difference between japanese releases vs western releases to me it's that when a group drops a japanese single it's made clear prior to the release date this is part of a different universe within the group's sonical landscape, while with western releases, more often than not, the shift is portraited like something natural to their musical identity when it's clearly the opposite in most cases. i'm still pissed off at sm til this day for trying to convince everybody that 'life's too short' was a natural turn of events on aespa's catalog, as if it's something that the fans that liked the aespacore concept and metallic sounds where looking for, rather than a lame attempt at reaching a broader western audience.

I do want to add that weirdly what they've done has worked. I've heard Set Me Free and Moonlight Sunrise in Target, the mall, and in restaurants. While I agree that Twice isn't doing their concept change great and honestly it feels like a lot of kpop companies don't seem to understand what actually works in a Western market, it's interesting to note that Twice did pretty successfully branch into the Western market

@dotcom3015

Ай бұрын

Cool was it la or New York or somewhere less touristy?

@MistyMaize

Ай бұрын

It must've been la I've not heard them

@devious7084

Ай бұрын

@@dotcom3015Targets all over have Twice, Bts and such playing constantly

Kpop has always been westernized lol the whole inspiration for kpop came from western music

@fisticuffs12

18 күн бұрын

yes but it hasn't always been catering to the american music market, which has different tastes than the kpop music market. also pop has been a global genre for decades, it's a little tired to keep claiming "the west" (whatever that means) owns it

@struggler7079

4 күн бұрын

Nope. Just liste to kpop songs from the 2010s. Theyre so unique. Women wetre so feminie and men were masculine. No we have some degenerate gay looking dudes and women who act like men.

I don't agree with the idea that translation is a problematic aspect of westernization. Companies could if they want shift the meaning of the lyrics during the translation process or they can actually try to communicate something deeper with the help of professional translators. Great works of literature have been translated to and from different languages so I dont see how this can't happen with a kpop song with a more specific message. I think the sound is the main problem. The western music market has preferences that do not align with those of the korean kpop music market. This means that some kpop acts will change their sound too drastically to appeal to the west. Other kpop groups like new jeans and blackpink to a certain degree debut with just the right sound and can so more easily appeal to the west and other parts of the world.

Twice are powerhouses in the industry even tho their new music isn’t popular anymore. That’s what they have it’s a loyal fan base. I don’t think twice are really aiming to do something new like they did 2018-2020, it’s exactly the same for bts

For me bts never changed cuz they never stuck to a sound. You can see that from the beginning of their career, they did a hip hop trilogy, then they changed to a more youthful sound with hyyh trilogy, then R&B in the love Yourself trilogy, and then map of the soul: 7, persona, they were trying for something darker, and then they did a more pop sound in dynamite and BE, which so many people forget it was in the middle of two English singles butter and dynamite and then came ptd. They never changed cuz they never stuck to one sound, they were experiencing with their music the whole time. Bts themselves said that they weren't going to release the three English singles and BE. Map of the soul:7 was supposed to be the last album before enlisting in the army but then covid came, that's when they got dynamite and released it. But even after the success of those three songs, i think they themselves felt lost and began to question their music group identity(we can see that too in map of the soul: 7 , in black swan) as they didn't expect this success. And i think the company played a big role in this, like after they saw the success of dynamite they pushed them to release more( not sure if this true, but come on, it's hype that were talking about). And after that they released proof which had only 3 new songs, but those songs were like" what old bts felt like" according to kpop fans.

@Alabts

Ай бұрын

And for black pink, i don't think that they have enough songs to change their sounds even after 7 years in their career( even tho i see some people wanting something new from them cuz their getting bored of the same concept) maybe if they release more songs. And for new jeans, they are like new, they are like 2 years old group i think, but at some point i think you wil see them changing their concept.

@user-vv7hc7kb5o

Ай бұрын

they weren't pushed to release anything that's the only thing I would say you're incorrect about but everything else is a slay friend ! Oh and Proof is an anthology album that's why it only has 3 new tracks and the third disc is all demos for already released songs with a few unreleased songs (quotation mark and young love). the third disc is only officially available in the physical copy, they're not on streaming platforms but all the tracks from the 3rd disc can be found on yt and other places so yeah. like Hobi's demo for DNA is such a banger also jump demo, boy in luv demo while boyz with fun demo is so silly and hilarious 😭😭 the guys rly were doing anything in that studio lmaoo

@Alabts

Ай бұрын

@@user-vv7hc7kb5o i said i wasn't sure cuz i don't know too, i assumed it cuz look at fucking hype and also ( not sure but suga said a thing about that they had to release butter, not sure tho) you slay too ( don't know what does slay mean even after i searched it )

@bumblebee8163

Ай бұрын

I disagree lot people are not get boring music with Blackpink if they did we be talking about right and won't be most girls group on Spotify and KZread without a comeback in two year Yeah that is optional but they lot people to Ironic songs from 80s still like we are the champions and will rock from you said they boring song every hell people still listen to Elvis but what you saying his song play to make you to remember if a iconic songs and Blackpink you can said all song iconic how they did them in a way you going to remember them how they sing because they are Legends and Global icons and they song Legends in way trouch people in way Like D4,Kill this love Lovesickgirl Stay and More they song did people remember those in 20 years I going all say but this but you have your option is not true or facts but I tell my opinion on this remember everything you need is on the ground

@Sistarhyo

Ай бұрын

THIS THIS THIS!!!

Wait. How does BTS “suffer” from “Westernization”? Note that I don’t consider their English trilogy as “westernization” but as their gap year project. Since their cancelled Map Of The Soul (MOTS) world tour 2020, and their album Map Of The Soul: Seven was supposed to be their last album, and their last activities, before leaving for the military. A lot of kpop groups may serve as DOORS INTO KPOP for THE GENERAL PUBLIC. But BTS, specifically through their English Trilogy, was a door INTO THE MAINSTREAM for KPOP. "Westernisation"? You and many others are asking the wrong question. BTS blew up in the mainstream and globally AFTER their English trilogy,. This is the point in time some kpop fans considered to be the start of their “westernization”. A starting point many kpop fans can’t seem to agree on, as they confused misalignment of personal tastes to real world degradations of integrity or quality. I, as a mainstream music consumer, see no characteristically different qualities in BTS overall discography from 2013 - 2022, that is significant enough to be called a complete turn around. Especially when compared to most Kpop groups. While at the same time, BTS produced a significantly unique musical product compared to the rest of Kpop. Which is always what people seem to pick on whenever they see fit. But they been the way they have been, musically, since 2013? Again, as someone new to Kpop, I am perplexed at what I see as an overstatement of their “suffering from westernization”, and all the conversations around it, because I simply don’t see any “suffering”. BTS have not suffered in terms of their musical growth, if judging from their most recent solo projects. BTS have not suffered in terms of the growth of their fandom. The fandom have grown both in numbers, and in terms of fans from a wide variety of musical genres. Which makes me think that this conversation touches on something more sensitive, and it has nothing to do with music: IDENTITY. And NOT that of the artists, but of the CONSUMERS. What do you think?

@I_Support_BTS_Not_HYBE

Ай бұрын

I feel the same. BTS are always ready to try as more concept as they find. And that makes them unique not western.

@FallforcupidD

Ай бұрын

I agree, wow this comment is very thought provoking. Being that as you said, if I'm a fan of a group and that group drops a English song, which I consider 'boring, horrible and western.' Does that make my identity as die-hard fan, invalid? Of course there's nothing wrong with having a taste for certain K-pop sounds but there are mostly western genres mixed in with K-pop, so I'm just trying to grasp? As being a fan of that group is now a huge part of my identity. Is that what you're saying? I'm genuinely interested and intrigued with your comment!

@Abbieh07CB

Ай бұрын

​@@I_Support_BTS_Not_HYBEbut when twice does it, It's westernization,Right! The double standards!

@pleasetouchgrass

Ай бұрын

i mean if you’re considering their english releases as a “gap year” it just sounds like you don’t wanna admit that they did suffer from westernization. If you don’t wanna add those songs in their discography but throw them to the side as a gap project then it sounds like you just don’t wanna admit it

@DP-mv7ph

Ай бұрын

well let me be honest with you their western songs just sound extremely awful and they lack soul if you would tell an ai to make you basic pop music this it what they would sound like theres no creativity or passion or originality

I think it is crazy to have an English pre-release and Korean title track but then make an English version of the Korean title track... Like the effort is lost on me especially when neither of the English songs were able to chart or do numbers streaming-wise. If you're gonna sacrifice quality, concept, and art for numbers & popularity you should go all out for promotions. Instead, they let both versions fizzle out only promoting the vague Korean title track on music shows which also did not do numbers. Something needs to change marketing-wise because the potential "Set me free" and "I Got You" had so much potential. I don't think BTS lost their plot because they never had any kind of concept. The only thing I can think of is that people liked their darker depressing meaning songs and did not like their positive upbeat meaning songs which is just in the eye of the holder. Their English singles still possessed meaning plus they changed their concept, look, and sound each comeback. Some people can never be satisfied in every era people said they preferred the previous BTS. In my opinion, 3 English singles cannot rupture a long discography of Korean singles especially when the fruit of the albums remains high quality and cohesive. In Twice's case, their main problem is promotion and connecting with their audience so many people did not even know Twice had a comeback. They only know that twice has been on tour for a long time. Also all of BTS' English songs were heavily promoted in South Korea and Japan as well as the US, they charted insanely well & hold records their Korean songs don't. It is just a matter of people hating on BTS with their 3 English singles they did not really sacrifice anything and remained unaffected in their career. The English singles even gave them a huge boost of popularity and recognition that extended to their Korean songs.

@kf5338

Ай бұрын

BTS became a whole different group with their run of Dynamite, Butter and PTD. I stopped being a fan and didn't finish listening to any of those singles because I hate that music style. Even if the songs were in Korean, I wouldn't have liked them. That music style sucked. I love Run BTS - that was the first glimpse I saw of their old music style.

@vickmay3898

Ай бұрын

@@kf5338 3 english singles cannot define a 10 year career. I doubt when they come back they will be making music like dynamite.

@user-vv7hc7kb5o

Ай бұрын

Thank youuuu for saying that about BTS omfg I could give a juicy big ol kiss on the mouth for your comment

@user-vv7hc7kb5o

Ай бұрын

​@@kf5338 the whole BE album, Proof and other songs released during that time by the members say hi! lol 😂 you're missing out that's for sure

@Abbieh07CB

Ай бұрын

Well, That seems like a you problem because majority of Onces loved their newest album,And it is quality music,Get your ears checked!

Idk why yall are hating so much. I love twice and jihyo’s english vers.

your video topics are always so interesting😭

@tisya_2013

Ай бұрын

and yours too 😭

This is such a cool analysis as a ONCE. The idea that the return to form with Talk That Talk because of it possibly being their swan song gave me CHILLS!

By the way, lyrically I’ve always thought One Spark was about youth and wanting to keep that feeling of youthfulness forever. Don’t let the “spark” die. Which makes sense with the name of the album. I don’t think it’s as vague as you say.

@ericmjoyce

Ай бұрын

Right. I think there are clear intentions in the song and anything vague is actually a sign of maturity in their songwriting. I also interpret One Spark to be song about maintaining not only their youth, but their legacy by keeping their initial passion burning.

@c1k2.

Ай бұрын

I immediately got the message first listen…I don’t understand how he is seeing it as ambiguous as he is

@nattt007

27 күн бұрын

LITERALLY

@kerosama7726

26 күн бұрын

I feel like he was talking concept-wise because I also felt like One Spark was underwhelming even if I knew the message behind it. Unlike Special, it seems to me that it lacked in music, concept and MV alike (as you could previously grasp the Twice essence with their former releases). The budget and the storytelling of the MV didn't feel as complete as their previous ones but personally, I think it was mostly musically-wise that Twice lost most of their charms...even if I enjoyed some of its parts, it sounded like a basic sound?

I love Moonlight Sunrise and I Got You.

Talk that talk and alcohol free were PERFECT releases for me. Honestly I wish div3 would realize that onces like twice because of their unique sound, and those 2 releases were a genius mix between twice’s authentic image and their maturation from cutesy aegyo songs. If we wanted western songs we’d just listen to western artists :/

I was surprised that the success of The Feels didn't show JYP that twice's original concept would work just fine in a western market. It's the most typically Twice song they've released since 2019!

funnily enough, in reference to your video on le sserafim's live performances, i feel like westernization is one of the main reasons why their performance at coachella failed. the musical trends that le sserafim draw from, particularly their most recent music, are not ones that easily translate to a kpop performance style without modification. plenty of kpop idols are mid or even below average singers, but when balanced with the maximalized production of the instrumental and complex choreography, it makes up for where vocals may lack. a lot of the songs that are considered quintessential kpop have this quality of spectacle about them that's almost theatrical. im pretty sure giselle of aespa once said something along the lines of "the reason music videos and performances are so important is that you're really only getting half the story from only streaming the song." it's really similar to how pop songs often can't function as musical theatre numbers without modifying the arrangement, because musical theatre numbers are intended to tell part of a story, so they heavily emphasize the lyrics and the instrumental being reflective of the emotion the character is feeling. it's why people have panned Disney's Wish so hard. the songs just feel like regular pop songs without any effort put into having the music tell a story. le sserafim's discography, by contrast to typical kpop, is very minimalistic in order to reflect current music trends in r&b/pop. the issue with that is when you combine kpop-trained vocalists with a style of music (r&b) that has a minimalistic instrumental on PURPOSE in order to emphasize the vocals, you end up with le sserafim's vocals sticking out like a sore thumb. going back to the musical theatre comparison, it's like hearing a broadway vocalist like Idina Menzel sing a pop song, the inflection and overacted emotion she puts into it feels so corny and out of place in your typical pop song because it's not intended to tell a story on a live stage the way theatre is. if we're going further and further into the comparisons of kpop to musical theatre, i feel like blackpink works for the same reasons that a modern musical like hamilton works, because while both play on western pop/rap soundscapes, they're still playing on the conventions of their mother medium, ie blackpink utilizing typical kpop structure in both the instrumental and the general song structure itself and hamilton still using theatre storytelling. i don't think it's a coincidence that eve psyche and the bluebeard's wife is one of le sserafim's breakway hits, because it's probably their most kpop-y sounding song to date. while i know people tried to make aespa comparisons with that song i honestly think le sserafim would be better off with that type of music, because it's not that their vocals as a whole group are remarkably bad by kpop standards, they're just bad for the type of music HYBE keeps making them do.

@arimes31

Ай бұрын

this is such a well explored and thoughtful perspective, wow. you have to be one of the few people i have seen through this spark of westernization discourse to not only present something new that is relevant to the conversation, but is thought-provoking and takes into consideration room for nuance! i have nothing to add i just had to compliment how good this was lol

@gahye0nie

Ай бұрын

@arimes31 thank you lolol honestly I've been a kpop fan for years and years and the recent trends in kpop have had me scratching my head as to WHY kpop feels different nowadays and after going on a musical theatre kick while my faves weren't making music it clicked

@moongirl8807

Ай бұрын

Really like your insight. Their new groups are even worse. I watched a couple of ILLIT encores and look...I don't wanna beat a dead horse but they are one stage above Le Sserafim - the non-existent vocals don't even matter anymore bc there's nothing to sing. The whole EP is under 9 minutes I think to begin with, and they're stuck with a repetetive 2 minute song that has like 5 lines of actual lyrics and is meant for Tiktok (the whole album was released as a spedup version like a week later plus the obligatory remixes so that should tell you everything). Tbf they have one ok singer I wanna say that and Youngseo might've been good but this is literally a Le Sserafim situation where they thought 3 ok singers is enough but then oops one got kicked out and the other two are getting worse bc Hybe apparently dgaf about vocals AT ALL. And yes Chaewon did ok but 1/5 is not enough and who knows how her vocals will develop under Hybe. Just look at Yunjin. Without getting too much into the current Hybe drama - I'm not up to speed and really dislike MHJ - the CEO was definitely trying to create NJ 2.0 but on steroids. And from what I've heard at least NJ can sing a little but does it matter? Both of the 3 gg produce music that is either soulless, made for Tiktok fame, heavily autotuned or all of the above. I blame Fifty Fifty (or their CEO) for this mess by going viral but the sweet irony of the 3 kicked out members being great singers and singing their debut stage without backtrack is not lost on me. Sometimes the universe has a mean sense of humor.

@gahye0nie

Ай бұрын

@@moongirl8807 yeah i feel like illit is the other half of the equation here. they have the issue of playing on the like, lo-fi/bedroom pop sound which is fine for easy listening or putting in the background of a video but its the opposite of what a kpop performance needs to be. granted i think there are artists who play into the more lo-fi style that can work in kpop but that would require HYBE producers to tweak the songs to make them more gradiose, more layering, etc. which they don't seem to care to do. it's sad because illit are clearly young girls who have dreams of being idols but they're not being trained properly and taking the fall for something that isn't their fault.

@misomoon

19 күн бұрын

screenshotted this comment cause it’s just that good

All K-pop music - from the beginning until today - is Western. The end.

@Snowboard4

28 күн бұрын

Quando você estuda um pouco sobre o surgimento do K-pop, você realmente vê o contexto disso. O que me incomoda é de como o inglês é predominante agora. O início da terceira geração e o final da segunda trouxeram sonoridades que eu não encontraria no Ocidente, compreende? Mas essa "ocidentalização" está mais aparente

@fisticuffs12

18 күн бұрын

pop has been a global genre for decades because it was exported as a cultural product across the world. it's time to stop claiming ownership over it, culture evolves when it's adapted by new groups

@mixolydian

18 күн бұрын

@@fisticuffs12 I think you're right that pop has been global for decades: it has taken on influences from many countries, but the reality is that indigenous Korean music plays almost no part in global music or in K-pop, so the idea of it becoming more Westernised is just false (a listen to traditional Korean music would demonstrate that). A better title for this video could be "How recording in English harms groups like Twice" - and I think that is true. From reading so many comments from people like me who believe K-pop is the best thing that has happened to music in decades - and also love to hear the Korean language - I get the feeling that many listeners would rather companies didn't try to pander English-speaking audiences. Incidentally, I would never claim ownership of any musical forms. They've got nothing to do with me! And I'm only using the term "Western" because that's how this video-maker is framing his argument. I don't divide up the planet in such ways. But I find the history of music a really interesting subject. And one of the most interesting aspects is this: most of the word's indigenous music is pentatonic (i.e. based on a five-note scale). Something different happened in Europe in the middle ages: the development of seven-note scales, which are the basis of most global pop songs today.

@fisticuffs12

18 күн бұрын

@@mixolydian you are very correct. but kpop does have unique things about it that separate it into a subcategory of pop. it's like pizza, you can say it's italian food but if you went in wanting chicago style and got an authentic italian one you'd be disappointed

@mixolydian

18 күн бұрын

@@fisticuffs12 Exactly! A very good analogy.

i definitely felt this way as a moa who got into txt because of temptation, only to have that album followed up with Do it like that and then chasing that feeling. Freefall has some really good b-sides besides dilt but it got completely eclipsed by how generic ctf was as a song and mv. I’m glad that tomorrow was a more korean focused cb

@jacquiokweri

Ай бұрын

As a moa, I had the exact same problem. Temptation was an amazing album, which did well both in Korea and internationally. It baffles me how, after seeing the success of Sugar Rush Ride (a primarly korean song), BH's decision for TXT was to release Dilt and CTF....these 2 songs stray away from TXT's unique sound and were such forced attempts to cater to the west.

@nattt007

27 күн бұрын

CTF GENERIC WHAT?

Yep. My biggest problem with SMF and One Spark is to me personally they're so boring and I think that's by design to appeal to the West. There's little to no concept. You can be mature and still interesting. But I think the company knows the group has achieved all they can in Korea and has now settled for releasing elevator music they hope will be played on US radio lol

I don't disagree with this general argument, but it seems strange not to discuss The Feels more: it was their first song only released in english, and the amount of times they performed it on western talk shows and such almost mimicked BTS around 2017-2018. Is the darker image westernisation, or are the western releases used as a safe area for Twice experimenting with their concept and sound as they mature? BTS I think is much clearer: aside from covid-related 'losing the plot', they were trying to see if changing to this overly poppy sound for their English releases would increase American radio-play and maybe bag them a grammy. It was pretty clear from their interviews.

@user-vv7hc7kb5o

24 күн бұрын

That wasn't clear from their interviews at all....what interviews were u watching is the question????

While I found Set Me Free and the album Ready To Be very underwhelming, I feel like the With YOU-th album is much better in terms of balancing the core of TWICE while appealing to the west. Promoting I Got You and One Spark together really showed the bond, time, and care TWICE have for each other. I will say i have still not listened to the English version of One Spark and generally for most kpop groups don't listen to English versions of songs

Seems to me that Korean fandom usually abandons groups after 5-6 years, defecting to younger groups. It’s a natural transition, and JYPE just adapted to that drop in Korean interest. Asian audiences want innocence…but people naturally grow up, get in relationships, start drinking, vaping, smoking, etc., and Western audiences aren’t as sensitive to that stuff, like Korean audiences. Am I off, in that perception?

@MattOnce

6 күн бұрын

Bingo! You are correct!

"Should fans even be talking or complaining about this?" --- Of course we have a right to talk, complain, or even criticize. No artist is ENTITLED to fans' admiration. Admiration must be earned, first of all, but even more difficult, it must be maintained. Of course it's true that the artist or group can completely switch up everything and create whatever they want. That's their right. But that also means they are taking the risk that the fans will lose interest, change the channel, stop streaming, and move on to other artists who deliver what they want.

I don't understand this lol. Much of K-pop's success in the United States is because of most Korean acts employing either hip-hop or EDM as their sonic base but Twice made their bubblegum sound attract Western appeal. TWICE matured so their music matures with them but they've always stayed true to their roots. They always kept their bubblegum sound while other acts went for western music. They have a super diverse discography so I don't agree with this narrative at all. TWICE has always been one of the few major acts NOT to go for a western sound.

@stolas2240

8 күн бұрын

well i dont understand YOUR comment because... first of all twice did not attract much western appeal with their bubblegum sound (it was popular in korea and japan), twice started doing much better in the west AFTER their shift away from their bubblegum sound. they had a shift around 2019 away from the cutesy concepts and bubblegum titles to more mature concepts and...more westernized pop sounding titles and singles. they have also released a lot of english songs and english versions of songs since then- all in the same effort and west goal. (twice actually have the most english songs out of all the big groups.) from among the top kpop acts i would actually argue twice had the biggest shift to a western aimed sound and appeal. twice do have a diverse discography, but you are clearly in denial and or biased if you cant see that their shift in sound wasn't just because they matured, but because they are also trying to target a market that they didnt initially aim for. also, i hate the kpop "staying to their roots" discourse because it implies that groups who try out sounds they arent known for, or intentionally aim for certain music markets...have lost their identity, which is straight up disrespectful and dismissive of the groups work, but also nonsensical. besides, kpop has always been influenced by two major music industries, the western and jpop- thats where the roots of kpop itself lie anyway.

@DutchHPfan1992

8 күн бұрын

@@stolas2240 Hahaha what's with the attitude. Delusional and salty much. Bye.

Yeah some of y'all gonna have to pack it up with these comments. Its 2024, kpop is westernized and theres nothing you can do about it.

@moonchild7425

11 күн бұрын

Bae k-pop has BEEN westernized since 1990s so your point? 💀

@maplenerd22

11 күн бұрын

@@moonchild7425 The point of the OP is that other comments on here are claiming K-Pop shouldn't be westernized. In fact this video is about how westernization is causing harming Twice. That means at point in time, Twice wasn't westernized, but now they are which is causing them harm. Come no now. Try to keep up with the conversation.

@moonchild7425

9 күн бұрын

​​@@maplenerd22 talk to me when you get to know that westernization isn't just factored by singing English singles, but majorly by Western genres like hiphop and rap that have been the entire core of this industry since the 1990s. Twice isn't "becoming" westernized, they already were since debut. Same with all the k-pop groups. In fact, same with the entirety of k-pop. Y'all just aren't ready to accept that westernization isn't just marked by English singles and white artist features.

this was such an in depth and accurate analysis omg i loved this and this makes so much sense !!

The reason why I got into K-pop is because of the uniqueness of the songs that these groups have. Now I feel like I’m kind of loosing interest because most songs are starting to sound the same like in the west. Also with the gaining popularity of New Jeans I feel like most K-pop groups are using that concept and it is getting a little bit overused, I feel like we should bring back girl crush concept to get some sort of spark back into K-pop.

i think another important point is styling, both set me free and one spark seem to just follow current trends and don't really have a specific direction (one spark specially, it feels like the only outfits that really suit the mv concept are the red and black outfits and the sparkly silver and black outfits that weren't used during promotions). this was a problem for twice before they became global (with eras like yes or yes and likey), but when you have most groups following western fashion trends and your concept isn't strong enough to innovate on them, you end up with outfits with expensive flashy pieces that don't really fit with the rest of the collections so it just looks messy and eventually will be very forgettable. i love both set me free and one spark and their albums respectively, but as eras i think they will be always outshined by their english singles.

As someone who only properly got into Kpop in 2022, I have a bit of a different take on BTS and TWICE. With BTS, I casually liked Boy With Luv a lot when it was on the radio (I also liked Halsey's voice on the chorus so I was exactly the target demo) after never really liking BTS' original sound when some friends played it for me a couple times. It was a pristine work of pop perfection, and I think that applies to Fancy and I Can't Stop Me as well. I think the thing with westernization is largely the same challenge with any sound change. If you're doing something new, your chances of misstepping are higher and segments of your audience won't like the new sound. That's why I think I'm not a big fan of Butter, and it's why JYP has also struggled to get Itzy a GP hit as well despite no translation dilemma. I do agree that simplicity for the sake of translation is a mistake in the case of Set Me Free. I think the solution would've been to just commit to Moonlight Sunrise though as the main title track. I think a lot of groups have made the mistake of too many title tracks the past couple years. Even if Set Me Free had better lyrics, it's still kind of in the middle between Korean and international tastes. I think a big difference between groups like Blackpink compared to TWICE is that Blackpink started with international friendly sound, but also that Blackpink doesn't have enough songs to need to make that much of a sound change. I think TWICE was already facing diminishing returns with Talk That Talk and they can't go back to the sound of Look At Me anymore. Ultimately I do think TWICE is kind of at their legacy act stage if their careers. They're not getting the Korean GP back, so they should've committed to Moonlight Sunrise as the title track with Set Me Free as perhaps a promoted b-side without the pressure of having an English version and needing to be catchy for streaming. That's just my personal preference though. I'm sure others will have their own tastes.

TWICE is the K-Pop girl group with the most: - Sales (Korea, Japan, USA) - #1 hits (Korea, Japan, USA) - Streams (Korea, Japan, USA) - Daesang awards - Total awards - Music certifications - Revenue (all-time) Until any other K-Pop girl group matches this, TWICE will remain the queens of K-POP!

I guess why JYPE is pushing retro-synth pop sound to promote to the west is it's because they mastered it. They started from I can't stop which was a massive hit. Followed by Baby Blue Love, The Feels (well accepted by the western audience) to SET ME FREE. I just thought that it may work that way. To promote the group with the sound they mastered and the sound that may appeal to the western audience and TREND at the same time. (2020-2021 was the year of synth-80s pop). That's just my analyzation. hehe...

i love watching your vids (even when i don't entirely agree with what's being said) bc you present your point so succinctly and calmly. it's refreshing to not have a k-pop youtuber screaming their opinion bc they feel that's the only way to make us think the same way you do and you're always respectful about the groups you're talking about. i agree with taste of love being primed for west promotions without maybe intending to but it might be bc it's my fave EP from them lol

although i agree with what you said, there’s a lot of issues black pink have. almost all of their title tracks are the same concepts and the lyrics are so incredibly similar to their previous songs- it’s almost as if they’re scared to branch out. though i know bp fans love their bad-girl concept, i think it’s stumped their growth as artists. when they do come together as a group, which is rarity these days but isn’t necessarily their fault, we can expect the same music and the same concept. nothing new nothing fresh.

I get what you’re saying and I agree on all parts except the part where Set Me Free and One Spark don’t add to Twices identity. To me they completely glue their identity together. Because as they mature, they want to be more free in all they do and stick together with that one spark of passion and friendship. I think those songs are more personal ❤

I'm glad people are actually talking about this topic. Fans (specially new fans) go crazy when you talk about westernization. Then they say "it's just pop in Korean" nah babe, you know damn well what we're talking about.

@imtherealone.6268

3 күн бұрын

No, but it's still pop whether it's K-pop or J-Pop. Why is the JYP training rooms named Micahel Jackson and Madonna? Those are western artists. Did you know Red Velvets 'Dumb Dumb sounds a lot like Jessie J's Bang Bang? Also Girls Generation 'Party', sounds like Katy Perry's California Gurls as it's using the same chord progression ? Both were released in 2015, Bang Bang was also realesed in 2015 but California Gurls was released in 2009. But yeah, I guess you're right, people don't know what they're talking about.

This is so interesting! First off, BP and New Jeans have been marketed towards the west from the very beginning, which is why their sound doesn't have to be changed. To some extent, this was planned from the beginning. I definitely agree that Twice's English releases don't fit at all, soncially at least, with the album they're a part of. Except maybe their first English release. Completely independent from this: Set Me Free could've been such a banger concept-wise, if they went all the way with their trailer concept. I agree with the core problem of English releases eclipsing the narrative, but there's only so much one can add to the "young girls fall in love"-narrative. I liked the two recent albums, agree that they didn't really add anything to the story, but they need to think of a completely different story to continue/start. Idk

i love twice. i liked them in their aegyo-core era cuz the bubblegum pop was just infectious, but i fell in love with their transition to fancy up until talk and talk. this era was also the time when i started listening to their albums as a whole along with the title track. for some reason the latest two releases mentioned in the video just hasn’t connected with me at all, and it’s sad cuz i love the group but i’m not enjoying the music as much. i haven’t been able to fully listen to the albums as well since the title track just doesn’t entice me to dive deeper. hopefully jyp gets a grip cuz why waste their renewal with just okay releases.

Respectfully, why is BTS mentioned here? They haven’t released a full album since 2020 and have been on military hiatus since 2022. Their solo works are incredibly diverse. Having three English songs during the pandemic isn’t a track record or Westernization. They’ve pushed their Korean music just as hard starting in 2017. This is a weird take.

@pigeondance

Ай бұрын

people complain about them diluting their sound and identity, that's why they're mentioned. like there IS a reason why they used to have this huuuge world, lore and storylines, and a lot of songs rich in production and flavor, just to end up with a mv in a literal empty DESERT with the remains of their past excellence laying around, and a boring hip hop ballad for a title track 🤷‍♀️

@Lonadurn

Ай бұрын

@@pigeondance yeah, if you thought that was a boring hip hop ballad, you haven’t listened to their discography. My favorite BTS songs are “boring hip hop ballads”- 2!3!, Spring Day, Just One Day, Autumn Leaves, Hold Me Tight, Tomorrow, Black Swan. Their last Korean song was reminiscent of those songs. My favorite solo songs are also “boring”- Closer, Snooze, People. Y'all want candy and bright colors all time but thats never been the essence of BTS. Their best MV is Save Me and thats just them in a barren field dancing in tshirts and jeans. But it’s fine for casual listeners to make these hot takes because they don’t know and don’t even listen to their current music. Real fans know and they haven’t gone anywhere.

@itsjustjess1

Ай бұрын

i'll start by saying i've been army since 2016 and when i heard they were releasing english singles i was super excited but ultimately disappointed. my main complaint is that they don't sound like bts. they sound generic like anyone could have sang those songs (which makes sense looking at the credits). they were cute and lacked any real meaning which is what drew me to bts. i would brag to my nonarmy friends how meaningful the songs are hoping they would try them out and language was the barrier for them. then when they listened to dynamite they thought the song was cute but asked if this was what i meant by meaningful. they didn't even try the 2 other songs.

@Lonadurn

Ай бұрын

@@itsjustjess1 if they only listened to their English songs, they were never going to give the rest of BTS a chance. Again, it’s just three songs. I don’t get why people like Taylor Swift don’t get defined by Me! or Shake it Off but BTS has to be defined by Dynamite. See the double standard?

@itsjustjess1

Ай бұрын

@Lonadurn in this world double standards exist. Also we never know what might encourage people to listen more. My point is that everything I thought made bts bts was lost during the English singles. Mostly because they were not written by the same team that they normally make music with and the themes were very different from their norm. The guys actually talked about it during the Festa where they all cried. Rm said he felt like the identity of bts was being lost but they were still being pushed to continue because they were making so much money during the pandemic

I'm so glad this video exists. I thought I was just growing out of kpop but nah my fave groups sound really did change.

i think another huge problem is that companies just play it way too safe with western releases. some of the best kpop music and concepts are the ones that are a little bit quirky, fun, unexpected, or off the wall. kpop HAS to innovate to grow, because the industry is so fast-paced and fans are always looking for the next big thing. and western releases are never anything new or innovative, because they dont want to startle western audiences, or give them something too unfamiliar. that's why songs like one spark, dynamite, ice cream and numerous others just fall flat. they're basic, predictable, and just somewhat boring. they're trying way to hard to get radio play, and that means they never feel innovative, because they're just copying the western sound.

@user-vv7hc7kb5o

Ай бұрын

Saying dynamite fell flat is funny because the fandom doubled/tripled after that release, was a hit in western countries, a hit in SK, a hit in Japan. And for the former two it's still charting nearly 4 years later lol

@soobinsdolphin

Ай бұрын

@user-vv7hc7kb5o no i completely get you, bts are my ults. it charted insanely well but lowkey i think part of that was due to the pandemic: people literally had nothing to do so they were extremely dedicated to streaming. butter and ptd weren't deep in the pandemic but still a lot of ppl were at home. personally alll three of their english releases grew on me a lot and i loved butter from the start, but i know a lot of more casual armies and kpop stans didn't enjoy it that much and i kind of get why. they just don't feel very typically "bts" iykwim, although obviously bangtan delivered on the concept incredibly well

@user-vv7hc7kb5o

24 күн бұрын

@@soobinsdolphin butter and dynamite still charting in Korea and Japan for example isn't due to the fandom I'll tell you that much lol those songs are gp favorites and now nearly 3-4 years later they're carried by the gp. the fandom has other newer songs/albums to stream. and yes that's the whole point as you said BTS delivered those concepts very well because that's what they do. they make every song, every sound/genre/concept etc. their own and deliver it with their charm. all tracks they've done in their career is a bts type of track because it's these 7 specific members singing, rapping and or dancing to it

i'm speaking more on bts since you covered more about the direction of twice's music but it's important to note that bts themselves knew that the direction of their music as a group was getting murky following their 3 consecutive english singles (putting aside BE, a korean album that they didn't do physical promotions for) especially considering that they didn't do a whole lot of solo work before that (aside from their rap line). that's exactly why they decided to each do solo work right as they went to enlist one by one. (if you're an army, you'd know i'm referring to the festa video of 2022) so we can't fully tell what their music will sound like when they come back after 2025 because they haven't actually released a regular korean album as a group since 2021 (and their solo work is not the best basis bc well, if you followed them all, they're all so drastically different).

i feel as if people ignore what bts says on purpose because they never “lost the plot” as they have explained MULTIPLE times about the reasons for their 3 English releases 😭 They’ve always been a group who’ve changed up their sound and concept, it’s nothing new. The three english songs weren’t even originally planned but due to covid and the changes it had on their future plans before their military services, they wanted to connect with the American fans more especially since the cancellation of their tour affected them majorly. MOTS 7 came first then covid hit.. BE (dynamite was literally the only English album) an album that goes into detail about many of their struggles including their time in covid (anxiety, frustration, and powerlessness). Genres and messages that they’ve ALWAYS spoke on. An album fully in Korean. Butter was almost like the continuation of Dynamite. Then, came permission to dance, their mini tour for permission to dance which led to their analogy album. An analogy album that closes off on the first chapter of their career before they head off to the military and lead on to the next chapter in 2025. Btw, that’s why they are releasing a new album that connects with HYYH concept/story next year. They have never lost their korean identity just because they did English tracks. I feel like most kpop stans only go into that narrative because of how huge those songs became. They don’t just release for the sake of releasing, there’s always a reason and maybe everybody should start searching before developing a huge entitlement on this on-going banter on their English singles. Little mention: There’s definitely more groups releasing English songs and going into a different sound sometimes but I never understood the wrong doing of it? Most of these groups like Twice, don’t want to put in a bottle and also, as grown ups, they don’t want to get into a particular sound and image that y’all keep trying to shove down their throats lol It doesn’t take away anything, it’s all music at the end of the day.. I feel like this another reason why the kpop community has become almost overly-critical about everything, nobody just enjoys the music and leaves it at that sometimes

@fisticuffs12

18 күн бұрын

if a group releases 3 title tracks with a similar sound and concept that do well they will become known for that sound and concept. this is how popular culture works, the gp isn't gonna be out there researching bts

@nikkimiller1431

18 күн бұрын

@@fisticuffs12 “the gp isn’t gonna go out researching bts” doesn’t make any sense since those three songs became extremely popular? 😭 you do realize that bts is the biggest group in the world right? people were already interested in them before and after those three english singles so, that doesn’t make any sense lol

@nikkimiller1431

18 күн бұрын

@@fisticuffs12 most of them gp doesn’t really care about most kpop groups BUT bts

@nikkimiller1431

18 күн бұрын

@@fisticuffs12 “this is how popular culture works” yet, none of those three songs actually have anything similar to them other than a retro sound like many pop artists today don’t do the same thing and still remain successful? bts has always been known to change up their sound and genre, they don’t limit themselves to be just a pop group, and love to just be known as “artists”

Can I just say I love how balanced and reasonable your videos are. kpop fandoms are so polarised nowadays, and its refreshing to hear such reason and nuance

I'm a fairly new fan of TWICE, only getting into them in late 2022, and I agree 100%, I may not have been a fan yet, but I love most of their older stuff. There's nothing bad about the new releases, I mean I love I GOT You,but I much prefer everything before Eyes Wide Open.

I do not agree; I think TWICE are doing exactly what they want to do in their careers. I personally like "I got You more than "One Spark," but the latter song hot #1! You said you couldn't tell the narrative of that song, but then you DID just that! Lol stop hating; they ARE a global group and we ONCEs love them,

@SoCool7987

Ай бұрын

Keep saying that while their local fanbase starts to abandon them

@maplenerd22

Ай бұрын

@@SoCool7987 Their fanbase have grown significantly over the past few years. What are you talking about??

@phizzy123

29 күн бұрын

@@maplenerd22internationally maybe, but they definitely said local so they’re referring to korean onces

@maplenerd22

28 күн бұрын

@@phizzy123 Fair. I don't think the local fan base matters at this point. Kpop is global. The market now is so s much bigger than just S.Korea.

Wow, you've managed to so eloquently talk about a problem I've kind of been struggling to formulate for a while. This is so extremely well thought out and informative.

this is such an interesting commentary concept! I think that, unlike japanese releases, westernization of even one album in a group's discography will always be a huge erisk at the very least. I look forward to seeing the longevity of these groups' identities changes

LOVE THIS VID IDEA. GREAT VID

I don't think the lyrics of set me free did anything. I think that's a hot take. There was definitely a change in the sound and the aesthetics with Ready to Be. And I think people recognized that first before deep diving the lyrics. At the end of the day, it was a departure away from the sound that made them popular, from the sound that they curated their fanbase toward for the previous 7 years; it was always going to be a risk but it was a risk that they accepted. I think this song and album, regardless of lyrics, was always going to be risky.

@ELFanatic

Ай бұрын

On a side note. I think Alcohol Free suffers from the same message ambiguity that Set Me Free suffers from. I think TWICE was still being marketed to the same demographic that they were when they debuted, which is a much more innocent demographic and singing Alcohol Free and featuring the words Alcohol Free on their posters, etc was a way to keep TWICE's image pure and innocent for that demographic, which became especially important as they reached their mid-twenties. Lyrically they wrapped it in a love song to hide it's true intentions. Same as Set Me Free. I think Alcohol Free and Set Me Free are two sides of the same coin, they had just shifter their demographic in between the two songs.

Talk that talk was so iconic I wish they continued that direction

westernization in kpop? more like globalization. they borrow african,latam, middle eastern, even indian cultural elements and make it their own. audience are multinational than ever. kpop is beyond music. its more of a cultural exchange now.

I’m American and new to K-pop and Twice is one reason I started to love this genre. I started listening and watching the new material but loving to go back and listen twice’s old material….. so for me it’s good that their are westernizing… such hard working and talented girls❤❤❤❤

I loved this! And Twice was the perfect example for this kinda of discussion😄 Great video!

I mean Kpop is a business so that may be another reason why companies like JYP and HYBE market themselves to the Western Market for more revenue. Also, Kpop has changed since the late 2010s as Kpop isn't as popular today compared to 3-6 years ago,(I mean if you compare views and streams respectively) there is a lack of interest in them. However, this is my personal opinion as views and streams don't have a clear indication of how fans view a particular artist. Another reason could be artists' perspective on how they make their music as Jihyo has stated that she and members don't want to be doing aegyo concept as much, so a difference in style is inevitable. Also, Jungkook has stated that he is influenced by Ariana Grande, Justin Bieber etc to perform songs like Seven, 3D, and Standing Next to You.

you are so good at putting things into words!

Not directed to op but just in general: Ohhhh im so tired of you guys bringing up BTS and them supposedly "changing up" their sound/image/concept or whatever the f when they just released 3 english songs in their 300+ discography because it was the pandemic and wanted to bring joy to people during hard times. And they have done pop/pop-esque songs in their title tracks and bsides since they've been a group so again its not like they were just a hiphop group and thats all they ever did since 2013 to late 2020 who suddenly did pop outta nowhere. Lile they're the same artists who did dna, bwl, like, converse high and more. And no, the fandom as a whole doesn't have a problem with them doing dynabutterptd because even if someone doesn't like those tracks its not like those are the only songs they released in 2020-2022. There were whole album songs from the BE album, life goes on, yet to come, run bts, for youth, my universe and many other songs released by the members. bts have never had a "sound" or a "concept". their music and their discography is closely linked to them as humans and it very clearly grows and changes with them as they go through life from high schoolers to young adults to trying to figure themselves out to trying to figure the world out and so on and so forth

@Yoongi10269

Ай бұрын

I agree... For every english BTS song, there is like... 10 korean songs, if it isn't more (i'm including the solos) BTS have never had a specific 'concept', they've always expanded their musical genre and concept with each comeback. Me too, as much as I love this content creator, I'm tired of hearing people say that....

@iwvslk

Ай бұрын

THANK YOU. they only talk about BTS because they are the only ones whose english songs were incredibly successful

@dotcom3015

Ай бұрын

Army truly have a talent for victimizing bts at every turn. They released those projects, it’s part of their discography, people are allowed to judge it as part of their discography. plenty of fans/ex fans were put off by the English releases. It can be acknowledged that it succeeded for bts, and also that it lacks the substance and quality that their old music had. Like im so sick of seeing army’s whine every time someone mentions bts without outright praising them.

@wooksies

Ай бұрын

​​@@dotcom3015It's becoming tedious at this point. Kinda crazy how much they're offended over people sometimes comparing them to blinks but they literally sit at the same table when it comes to immediately misconstruing words and playing the victim/victimizing bts.

@dotcom3015

Ай бұрын

@@wooksies right, every big artists have their mid projects, and people don’t have to hold back on criticizing those projects just cause they’re successful. But with army and blinks, it doesn’t just stop at defending their art. Every time someone doesn’t consider bts or bp the best at something, it’s treated like an attack

I have to get out of my feelings for this topic, and I agree definitely with you, Choujimi. It's as if they don't know how to connect their message and concept as group to English in a digestible manner for both western and eastern fans. It's always one or the other. I LOVED moonlight sunrise and I, as a westerner can definitely see it's not your standard Twice song. I definitely think if done in a boring or incorrect manner, westernization can be bad for K-pop, but if done correctly it can bring a butt-load of new fans.

i never really thought about the westernization aspect of set me free and one spark, but it does make sense. i guess that explains why my expectations are much higher for the upcoming japanese album; it’s unlikely we would have any songs like those two and they would most likely still stick to the concepts and sounds that have made and kept them popular in the japanese market, which isn’t a guarantee anymore with korean releases. i’m hoping jype realizes soon how much twice is struggling from losing the quirkiness and uniqueness of their feminine and pop-y sound in exchange for music that emulates trends in the west.

This video is so well made! Thanks for touching this subject it’s so important, keep up with the good work ❤

There are at least 3 major misunderstandings in this analysis: 1. Although Twice was heavily leaning towards cute concept in the begining, they have been very versatile for quite some time, flowing very comfortably through a decent range of genres and gradually maturing their cute image, not replacing it entirely (that felt natural as the girls grew up, didn't feel forced at all). So the "harming their core" argument cannot be a thing unless you are deliberately trying to gaslight everyone into believing that they've never been versatile until just very recently, and that they are like a fish out of water not being cute 18 y.o. girls anymore. 2. One Spark is one of the most straight-forward, easy to understand songs in their entire discografy. It's just a celebration... while "I got you" was a reflection upon their bond through the hard times of their journey, "One Spark" is complementary to the storytelling, celebrating their journey as profesionals with a very supportive fandom. Celebration concept might be rare, but it's appropiate for groups with a massive trajectory, pretty much like SNSD's "Forever 1". 3. You really try to enforce the narrative that all the discografy, or at least all the singles, must have a straighforward meaning and a continuity, but that's just closeminded. They are performers and artists, their job is to produce something beautiful for their audience to enjoy while feeling as comfortable as they can, in order to enjoy the journey themselves and don't burn out. This "losing the plot" argument is lowkey very snob to be fair. By the end of the video, it was pretty clear that you come from a bitter mindset.

@ciananaies

22 күн бұрын

this video was completely subjective, like okay whatever yall say...

Twice is still less influenced as compared to Blackpink. Twice still has songs like feels and nayeon pop. Even set me free, i got you, one spark are so good.

So many good comments here! Although I appreciate JYP's (and others') efforts to expand their brands into the West, what drew me to kpop was the DISTINCTIVE SOUND AND CREATIVITY! I stopped listening to most contemporary Western music years ago because of how boring and repetitive it was. Sure, there are some artists who take chances and push the limits (e.g. Falling in Reverse,) but most can't hold a candle to even an average kpop group. The problem I see is these kpop groups are going to become bland in their efforts to appeal to the West. I forget who said it, but a quote I've heard is, "When you try to appeal to everyone, you end up appealing to no one." And that's the dilemma the kpop industry really needs to think long and hard about. For a group like TWICE, my suggestion would be to simply launch English-only mini albums (maybe two to four tracks.) Basically follow the pattern they have with their Japanese albums (but with a lot fewer tracks, lol, since they aren't as comfortable with English.) ONCEs in the West will gobble up those albums just as much as the others, but it'll allow TWICE to flourish creatively in their primary markets. And by the way, JYP if you're reading this, those of us who are fans in the West will keep supporting TWICE even if they never do another English release!!!

I like this! I think that this has some parallels to me as the (absurd) complaint I see online that English is taking over Kpop. Generally I think the amount of English, while higher because of English songs, hasn't nessisarily changed (in the decade I've been listening) much. What has changed that you hit on is many English songs in popular groups feeling out of place in their discography. It's the out of place western influence that sticks out. And i think there is confirmation bias present with all the examples you gave. I think aespa is an interesting example. Because some of their English songs feel v out of place but then i think of their tetris song and that feels so them.

Great video as always

@ChasingPurple

Ай бұрын

As an outsider looking in, I think it is a conscious decision to focus on the real experiences of the members rather than fictional characters. The latter is an IP and product wholly owned by the company. Which requires costs to maintain, but will far outlast the commercial value of actual aging young men. But as they realise BTS could go the distance and was breaking the 7 year curse, fictional characters aren’t sustainable as they tend to be captured in a time capsule, never to change, never to grow. Redirecting their focus for the BTS brand to the real experiences of the members can be seen as more sustainable, especially given how musically they seem to grow more and more confident as creators of their own art. While separating the fictional universe into a second, separate IP, which is currently streaming and is called “Youth”? I think?

@user-vv7hc7kb5o

Ай бұрын

the lore in their albums went up to LY answer. plus the fictional story got continued (of sorts) in other media like the books, the webtoon, the notes that came with the albums and now the kdrama.

@mahi-fn6to

Ай бұрын

i think the members themselves probably wanted to explore other stuff from their personal perspectives rather than acting as fictional characters in the backdrop of their music. i do think they’ll revisit it after 2025 tho since they mentioned the project they’ll be looking back on for the next group project is the hyyh series

yesss, i don't want half-assed english versions of kpop songs (unless they are done well like Cupid) as for me, the apeal of most kpop songs is that i can focus solely on the music, the tone, the danceability, etc. i sometimes want songs that make my head empty, make me forget/ zone out from my real life. not every band/ group needs to have lyrics that need to be deciphered by English professors lol

Thank you so much for talking about this!! I swear I felt like I was crazy for all of a sudden pulling away from twice while it seemed like others didn’t.

Westernization and maybe more accurately Americanization has been present in Kpop ever since the beginning, that's basically how Kpop even developed. But that thing is. Until very recently the music produced by Kpop was inspired by American music and genres, but was made for the Korean/Asian audience. The fanbase it attracted in the west was drawn to Kpop exactly because it was different from the western/american pop. That does not mean westernization is the villain, Kpop wouldn't be what it is without the western elements, but neither would it be what it is without it's Korean/Asian influences. The issue I am starting to have with Kpop recently is that it's too focused on the American market and so loses it's charm and ends up sounding like just another pop song.

BTS didn't suffer from westernization. In fact they grew from it while keeping their Korean music sonically distinct, at least as a group. Jungkook and Jimin went in a more traditional pop music route for their solo work, which is perfectly fine.

@nani6201

Ай бұрын

yup, many kpoppies do not know what westernization actually means. BTS never had a specific sound or concept like Twice. As for Twice, I think some onces need to accept that Twice have deviated from their old sound, they’re older now.Like I love twice, but are we going to forget all the hate they got when they were doing cute concepts? Just because it’s in trend rn won’t mean they’ll go back.