Extremely interesting. I always wondered how Ishi actually shot his bow from the photos I've seen in Pope's Book : Hunting with the bow and arrow. It just looked so very unorthodox. I enjoyed this immensely. Thanks so much for sharing!

Of course i subscribed .I can also see that all of you were touched by the Spirits ,that i can feel it and it is refreshing to see such dedication and humbleness .May the Spirits bless you all and advise you on your journey here on Earth and beyond .Blessed be )O( An eclectic Pagan from UK

That was awesome. Smart guy with lots of knowledge

Fascinating!!! When I was making the evolution from techno-archery decades ago, to traditional and primitive archery, I would see those pictures of Ishi shooting and I couldn't make heads or tails of his form. This has been so exciting to watch this demo and explanation, thank you guys...so grateful for this vid. 🧡

I read a book about Ishi. It was transformative. I also read something where Pope or Saxton was mentioning that Ishi did not shoot well...at the archery range...but, when they went hunting with him, he was unbelievable.

@thypotato7794

7 ай бұрын

Hunting with the bow and arrow mentions Ishi’s skill at the range, he found it difficult to perform an ‘American round’ because of all the colours on a target face

Loved this presentation Mark and Jeff.

That was the best video I've ever watched on KZread.Thanks for sharing that knowledge.Hats off to Ishi,he was a godsend.If only Otzi could have left us a note.👍

@damlynch1535

3 жыл бұрын

Ishi

Fascinating. This deffinitely counts for learning something new. Thank YOU.

Love this video! Thank you!

Really good video . Interesting how many release styles there are in archery . Very nice collection of bows you have too . Thanks for posting

Thats my grandfather Ivan Jackson at 29:25...Modoc Indian taught me to shoot the same way....Great info awesome Video

@markswanson3337

4 жыл бұрын

that is cool, Cameron ! .... i love the Modoc bow

How absolutely fascinating! Thank you

Thanks a lot! Very practical, informative and useful! ✨🌿☀️🙌🏻

Excellent discussion.

I am amazed by your ability and your knowledge. I have had a seven foot piece of Osage Orange in my garage for twenty years. It has a fine grain and a lot of little knots. I wish I knew a bow maker to give it to. Michigan, USA Detroit area

Thanks for the lesson in the history of this very primitive bills but effective in Ishi shooting

Great video guys!

Man what a great Video!

Cool stuff and great video. Thanks.

Excellent! Thank you so much for taking the time to share all your knowledge.

Excellent video and yes I've also noticed kneeling allows alot more stability allowing u to focus on your target etc.

Absolutely love this. I have a huge arrowhead collection that I have dug in SW Louisiana for 35 years. Before my dad sold most of our collection we had about 10 thousand points. It upset me terribly. Just my bird point plaque alone had 400 points. Thanks for the video because the years of digging arrowheads I often wondered how the process worked

This was one excellent vid with new insite i learned alot thank u!

FANTASTIC

That's a beautiful bow.

i first read ishi book in 1956, it affirmed what an 85 year neighbor would tell me about archery, his refrance was apache, commanche and tamilique indians.

Great video guys, thanks ! This way of shooting allows you to line up the target and the arrow ( point and nock ) on the Same plane with your peripheral vision, while keeping the target in main sight !

@humanbeing2009

4 жыл бұрын

Excellent observation. It is for sure an instinctual style which modern, mechanical approach archery is 180 degrees from.

Thanks, this was very interesting and informative.

thank you very much that is a great video! hope you make more this kind

Well done sir 👍

Thank you! Great video with all kinds of very fascinating and useful information, details, and explanations for why things were likely done "Ishi" style. Ordered the book you mentioned, Yahi Archery. Looking forward to hearing what Ishi's Doc had to share about Ishi, his hunting techniques, and any other interesting stories about the man, the Myth, the last known wild California Indian.

Very interesting! Thank you for your great presentation!

Superb demo and info on Ishi's method. Invaluable experience to share with us all - thank you. I will definitely explore this style and love to either make or buy an Ishi type of bow. Ever since discovering the book on Ishi when I was 10 yrs old in 1969, I always wondered about his unusual style of shooting. I imagine most viewers know about the tragedy of what happened to Ishi and the Yahi, but to those who don't it would have been fitting to explain a little about that or mention the book "Ishi" by Kroeber. I know no disrespect was intended since the subject was a how to. This book launched a lifelong fascination into the material culture and history of Native Americans for me. Thanks again.

@markswanson3337

4 жыл бұрын

You are welcome. I have read the Ishi story books also and it is a tragic story for Ishi and his people. My reasoning here was to hopefully spark interest in Ishi's method and revive it so that it isn't lost, out of respect for Ishi and his legacy.

@humanbeing2009

3 жыл бұрын

@@markswanson3337 Watching a second time. Invaluable. Thanks to you and Mark!

Learned alot.

Ishi used Khatra with the thumb draw This is interesting...a kudo type Khatra

Awesome

Really enjoyed this is not something that is learned by setting on your butt what a great video many thanks.🏹

@tumbleweed6658

3 жыл бұрын

Oh yeah I did subscribe thanks.

IS to nice Style wow

I use a similar style (independently invented) with strong very wide handled bows or extremely low braced ones.

Gosh! This explained draw on Greek statue representing Scythian archer in Louvre and in many scenes on Greek pottery showing similar! Amazing 👍💥 Also torque, khatra in thumb draw in composite bow

@markswanson3337

3 жыл бұрын

Zoran ... I think I know which statue of which you speak

@zoranpavlovic9540

3 жыл бұрын

@@markswanson3337 yeah! Paris of Aeginetes, right? Same short draw and position of bowhand should be inspected. There are representations on pottery with Ishi's bowhand position but not with Scythian bow (Paris has no preserved bow though).

@markswanson3337

3 жыл бұрын

@@zoranpavlovic9540 I'm having trouble finding it ... do you have a link you can share

@zoranpavlovic9540

3 жыл бұрын

@@markswanson3337 If you follow ATARN on FB it was shared by dr Ulrich Wellner and also discussed. I remember I've tried that draw using thumbring but it wasn't so comfortable with classic bowhand position, perhaps originally bowhand was in that position due torque. You can check some of Spyros Bakas' works published online. He's Greek archaeoligist and works in Poland. Here you can check first picture. I have plenty pictures from Greek pottery as well as particular statue took from different perspective (no thumbring used by Paris). koryvantesstudies.org/studies-in-english-language/page209-2/

@markswanson3337

3 жыл бұрын

@@zoranpavlovic9540 I do follow ATARN on FB. I've looked around trying to find a Dr. Ulrich Wellner, but he doesn't come up on the members list. i do remember a post showing a statue with an unusual shooting method that was very much like Ishi's method. I went outside and tried this new variation and it worked very much like Ishi's shooting. I made a few comments about it verifying it's validity as a method that worked. That is why I thought I had seen the statue you were referancing ... but I'm not finding any pictures of it now.

I’m seriously considering getting an Ishi tatoo, I’ve been in awe of his story since the late 90’s.....great vid and Thanks for sharing

@PrimitiveLifeways

4 жыл бұрын

I hope you enjoyed the video. This is by far the most accurate way of shooting Ishi style on the KZread platform! Good luck with the tattoo!

@ReelCoast79

4 жыл бұрын

Lost 2 arrows today, but I’m getting the hang. I shoot instinctive already and it helps tremendously. 👍🏽

@tonymaurice4157

11 ай бұрын

@PrimitiveLifeways ash works well wide and flat.. what is weight of that bow?

I did notice two things with Ishi style. 1. The way he hold the bow and how it flips when shooting reminds me of early medieval European crossbow, basically the same happen when shooting those crossbows, the bow flips after shooting. 2.The way you describe how he hold the arrow is very similar to how the Assyrian depicture their archer drawing the arrow. I found this thing very interisting

Mark, do you find it necessary to follow a growth ring on the back of these west coast bows if they are sinew backed and made of juniper?

@markswanson3337

4 жыл бұрын

Ethan Peeler , juniper does not have to follow a ring. The little short juniper bow was made from a branch and I just decrowned down to the width I was looking for ... 2+"

@ethanpeeler3147

4 жыл бұрын

Mark Swanson thank you

It looks extremely awkward but i can see the logic in it

Ishi Style sounds like Low , Silent , fast and precise shooting Maybe Ishi's hunt in tall grass like leopard and that made them to train in low and silent attacks

Obviously you guys have done way more research than me. Just thinking Ishi and the other California tribes you mentioned. Were people much smaller in stature. Mark looks like a much taller person. Wouldn't a longer draw and bow built for that. Give a more accurate example of how Ishi's and these other native American's form actually was? Great video thanx for sharing!!

@markswanson3337

4 жыл бұрын

Charles .... if you notice in the pictures of the Native shooters there is a picture of a guy known as "Big Willis" with a small bow similar to the little juniper I shot ... he also appears to be too big for his bow. Length of bow is not necessarily relatable to size of the man .... I have also shot long bows in Ishi's method ... it works, but isn't very practicle. Pope states that Ishi drew from 18" to 26" depending on what type of game he was shooting at and his bows were 44" to 54" long and weighed #35 to #50. Ishi's 25 " draw has always worked well for me.

@charlesstasko6819

4 жыл бұрын

@@markswanson3337 Thanx for the response. I also downloaded a PDF of Pope's 'Yahi Archery'. Just scanned through it quick. It had a pic that said Ishi anchored his wrist against his chin. Just thinking this may have been more of the norm on longer shots. I'm talking like 15 yards here. And if going this route as a beginner of Ishi's style. It may help one get the feel for it better. Didn't have a bow and arrow in my hands. But kinda measured what my draw would be doing this. About 27". I used to draw a recurve at 29 3/4". I'm a hunter 1st, and all of this more primitive stuff more of a secondary interest. So being able to hit close to where I'm aiming is paramount to me. It would be really neat to kill a deer with something like these bows you've shown. But at 60 years old I don't think I could learn the tracking skills the native Americans had to back up any marginal shots.

@markswanson3337

4 жыл бұрын

@@charlesstasko6819 Yes, I have read that caption also about anchoring on the chin ... the pictures don't show it to advantage really, in my thought... and when you do that ... anchor on the chin you can whack yourself pretty good when you release the string ... take my word for it !! haha ! The draw is rather ungainly because it does not use the back muscles to advantage like a normal type draw across the chest .... 40 to 45 lbs. in the bow is just right really, and that is what Pope states was Ishi's favorite bow was. Because the bio-mechanics of the draw are not using the muscles to advantage, that is the reason I stated that the 57lb. Hackberry "War" bow was a beast to draw. I can draw normaly a bow in the 65lb. range, but using Ishi's method limits the abilities.

@TightwadTodd

4 жыл бұрын

@@markswanson3337 Lest we forget,that Ishi had a method,that was recorded by Pope,as to what the proper dimensions were,for a Bow to an individual..In Ishi's case,it was 50"..According to Pope's measurements,Ishi was 5 Ft 8 " tall..The Bow that was taken from the Lower camp,Measured 50" long...I measured it myself..That bow disappeared many years ago,but i was able to examine it before it vanished..Using Ishi's method,,I draw 25 inches myself and am 5' 8" tall.....

@markswanson3337

4 жыл бұрын

@@TightwadTodd ... no worries, one adapts to what one has. Ishi made bows from 44" to 54". My preferance is for the 54 inch length because it is a more stable shooter, but that is the case for any bow format. As I demonstrated, bows from 36" to 54" long nock to nock can be shot this way and even though I did not demonstrate it, I have shot 72" ELBs and asymmetrical bows using Ishi's method. Also, the method works for an 18" to 31" draw as demonstrated. The length or type of bow is immaterial, the video is about the shooting methodology Ishi is employing.

Might it be that he or the Yahi intended to shoot it like a crossbow. Of course a crossbow would be heavier in weight but so they got a lighter bow - as it was shorter - and some advantages of a crossbow while preserving advantages of the bow - like shorter reloading time.

Aho! ✨🌼💛

Bom

😁👍🏾

in Turkish style the thump is also locked by the middle finger and the pointing finger presses the arrow against the bow

It's a watch and wait low profile stile. He was hunting for almost every meal.

Speaking draw weight… there is a very good look at English medieval war archery…. Those bows were absolutely mammoth… joe Stubbs a famous English bowyer and archer can shoot 160lbs in a yew war bow…. There’s videos on KZread of him shooting… the results on targets looks so strong on the impact it’s something to behold… 60lbs here and that is difficult for a normal guy to grab and shoot and joe is pulling 160lbs!!!

@markswanson3337

Жыл бұрын

Different perameter requiring a different bow and shooting style .... you are speaking apples and oranges

I'm still here at 4:29 , bro, wind wrist and focus is the key.

Ok

The Japanese allow the bow to turn in the hand and their bows have a flat rectangular cross section.

@markswanson3337

4 жыл бұрын

I've watched quite a lot of Kyudo videos studying, watching the bows and how they bend ..... the asymmetrical bow is a whole other subject ..... and yes the Yumi bow does turn in the hand and expend energy in doing so.

@dariuswhite2543

4 жыл бұрын

@@markswanson3337 i wonder how did they figure out sinew was excellent bow backing. I will never make another self bow with out a sinew backing . Even though it takes a while for it to cure .It is definitely worth the wait. Sinew will make the ugliest stick a lethal hunting weapon

@markswanson3337

4 жыл бұрын

@@dariuswhite2543 ... the sinew bow is nice, but ... in Arizona they can be a pain. Low humidity makes them rather unreliable and finicky, constantly changing tiller and draw weights. I will not brace or shoot my sinew bows unless humidity is at 30% or more .... humidity in the 10 to 15% range causes the glue to become brittle and you can literally shear the sinew right off the bow. In Arizona it is the selfbow that is the better bow, (in my opinion) being usable in all weather situations. For this reason I am a self bow guy and am more about refining any particular bow design to maximize the performance rather than looking to sinew.

Interesting but I can definitely see why this style is not very popular.

i thought book isha inspired me in archery, and deer hunting,filling freezzer

Arco está grande para a flecha está quase batendo no arco

💫🧸💫🙂👍

It looks like you could shoot longer arrows.

@markswanson3337

4 жыл бұрын

yes, you can shoot longer arrows and they actually will stabilized better. Ishi's arrows were in the 29" range but were drawn to 25" I shoot the shorter arrows because they are more difficult to shoot correctly .... it's a practice-training thing .. do the more difficult thing, master that and then the normal thing is much easier.

archers should feel like trowing a ball

I imagine by the pull that it’s a very light bow… 40lbs?

@markswanson3337

Жыл бұрын

Ishi made bows from 35 to 50 lbs. Ishi's favorite bow was 40 lbs. I give the weights of the bows through out the video. If the perameter of use is close in hunting ... Pope states 10 to 20 yrds ..... a heavier bow is unnecessary

Hmm, finally, hackberry is possibly good for something.

@markswanson3337

3 жыл бұрын

makes a great bow ! LOL :D

In perfect western or English war bow the arrow is nocked perfectly central… no asymmetry

@markswanson3337

Жыл бұрын

incorrect ... the longbow arrow pass lies above the center of the bow as well as the arrow nock point

@charliebowen5071

Жыл бұрын

@@markswanson3337 no. Its central..

@markswanson3337

Жыл бұрын

@@charliebowen5071 ... if the arrow pass is centrally located, as you say ... then that puts the grip below the center line making the upper limb effectively longer than the lower .... that is asymmetry. This type of mild asymmetry is also used in some Hungarian and Bulgarian bow design.

You are basically doing what the horse riding nations tended to do with the limitations of shooting from horseback

My question with the upturned wrist is… how often did Ishi ride a horse

@markswanson3337

Жыл бұрын

Ishi's people were not horse people

Who is ishi

@markswanson3337

Жыл бұрын

a Native American ... look up his story

Perhapes Ishi wasnt that good of a shot, many modern archers struggle with TP as well. On the other hand his sort bows could also limit his draw. He did survive in the wild just fine, meaning his skill with the bow was sufficient.

The crouching is literally mimicking being on horseback

@markswanson3337

Жыл бұрын

Crouching was Ishi's preferred method as hunting from a blind ... has nothing to do with a horse. These people were not horse people.

i gotta disagree with you about the idea that this type of shooting requires instinctual aiming. I think what this style does is it allows you to use a thumb draw and shoot off the right side of the bow, but the rotation of the bow lets you sight down the arrow. This is usually only something you can do with the arrow on the left side if you shoot with the bow canted mostly vertical.

@markswanson3337

3 жыл бұрын

Here is an excerpt from "Yahi Archery", chapter .... "Handling of the Bow" "As Ishi drew with the back of his hand uppermost, he extended his bow arm horizontally and kept it straight, midway between a lateral and forward position. His right hand he drew till its back came beneath his chin, the end of his radius touching the top of his sternum. Thus he looked straight along his arrow with both eyes open. In this position his eyes were considerably above the nock of the arrow and he therefore had to allow for over-shooting his mark." Yes, Ishi is sighting down the arrow ... but, notice .... "his eyes were considerably above the arrow" ... this is because his draw hand is below his chin and anchoring at the top of his sternum. In this position you are still going to have to employ some instinctual aiming with the plane of the arrow so far below the sight line.

@squamiger7720

3 жыл бұрын

@@markswanson3337 yea, definitely, the arrow tip is lower-- but that's how the gap aiming method works! i've been experimenting with this method with a flatbow I made, and I've found gap shooting is quite possible with it. as some people point out though, the more you gap shoot, the more it just becomes instinctive, and the lines blur. not saying Ishi ever consciously used gap shooting, just saying it's very possible with this method, moreso than with other types of thumb draw / arrow on the right side of the bow

@markswanson3337

3 жыл бұрын

@@squamiger7720 ... agreed that Ishi's method places the arrow in a position for a gap shooting application. But for myself I never applied a gap shooting method, it becomes more of an unconscious shot from the heart to the "heart" of the target. Kind of a Kyudo-ish projection of the "self" as target ... I have to admit , this is the way I seek to shoot with any archery method. To think back on my journey into "Ishi shooting" ... the more I thought about what I was doing .. tried to make adjustments ... the more I struggled with it. When I let go and went more "unconscience" of what I was doing the better I did with it ... and that is still true today. That is why I lean towards saying it is instinctual in application.

boo

@PrimitiveLifeways

3 жыл бұрын

Boo what? Mark has been doing this longer than you have been alive

That is not left handed shooting. Archery is just as easy with the bow in your dominant hand as with the bow in your off hand... As a beginner, it feels better to use the dominant hand to hold the bow, as you get more advanced, arrow handling with the off hand is the main difference that you feel...

@PrimitiveLifeways

Жыл бұрын

I am right handed and tried shooting left handed. I hit the neighbors wood fence. $80.00 later, I learned my lesson and said I cant take advise from a beginner ;)

That is NOT correct. Ishi was NOT left handed!!! I also noticed you copied some of the info from the Primitive Pathways video on the same topic.

@PrimitiveLifeways

3 жыл бұрын

Mark has been shooting Ishi style longer than Billy from Primitive Pathways has been alive. Billy looks like a clown when he is trying to shoot Ishi style. Thats the difference between a real bowyer and a TV reality star

@markswanson3337

3 жыл бұрын

Ahmm !? .... Big Daddy Ding Dong ... where in the video did I say Ishi was left handed ? And you don't know about or were privy to the conversations I had with Mr. Billy ... BEFORE ... he released his video ... explaining Ishi's method to him and answered his questions. Kinda hard for me to copy when I was the source of much of his information..... especially the flipping of the bow. The first time I ever heard Mr. Billy's name was 2002 when his very first articles for Primitive Archer magazine came out .... if you had listened to my words, you would have learned that I started with Ishi's method in 1980-81. Mr. Billy was most likely a little kid then. My purpose in doing this video was to expand the knowledge of Ishi's method and to try and correct the poor examples of shooting being demonstrated.

At Minute 10:21 Ishi has just fired the bow. A) his hand is still in place. B) the Bow is Horizontal C) the bow has not flipped forward? D) Your holding the Bow diagonal and limp handed. Ishi holds it rigid and the bow does not flip forward? I looks like Ishi holds the arrow in front of his face and pushs the bow away as he aims and release's looking over the arrow.. A regular bow release Mediterranean ? That release is for bows as short as 37 inches long and no shorter. And shorter bows we use a mechanical release. And there were people who utilized thumb ring release's. And in the times before that there were variations of Ishi's style. California was an ancient mecca of peoples speaking thousands of languages. Like this video states for some reason these people preferred short bows suggesting ambush styled defense and hunting. I would think a short bow would be for area's with wood shortages,.....I mean it seems longer bows are more accurate and many tribes were utilizing the same bow style and release style.

@markswanson3337

Жыл бұрын

Nakoa Warrior ... Quote #1 from Saxton Popes book " Yahi archery" Chapter "Handling the Bow" ... " The bow itself he clamped in the notch between the thumb and fingers of the left hand. he did not grip it tightly, even when full drawn. It poised in this notch, and even when the arrow was released it was only retained from springing from the hand by a light touch of his fingers. Some Indians, he said, had a little strap on the handle to prevent the bow jumping out of the hand." Ishi did not hold the bow in a rigid manor, Quote #2 ... "The arrow, when full drawn, rested on the bow, steadied in position by the slight touch of his thumb on one side, the middle finger tip at the other. When the arrow left the string, at the moment of release, the bow revolved, or turned over completely, in his hand, so that the back of the bow was toward him." The bow does flip over when you do it correctly. Pope watched Ishi shoot and described it perfectly

Ещё один сказочник-дилетант :) По одному Иши и по его фоткам, нельзя судить о стиле стрельбы всех индейцев. Может он (Иши) был кривой (больные суставы) и потому его перекашивало ... И локоть к груди он так сильно не прижимал.

@markswanson3337

3 жыл бұрын

Translation: Sergei Lavrov .... 4 months ago (edited) Another amateur storyteller :) Ishi alone and his pictures, one cannot judge the shooting style of all Indians. Maybe he (Ishi) was crooked (sore joints) and therefore he was distorted ... And he didn't press his elbow to his chest that much. Let us consult the one who actually saw and recorded Ishi's method. Excerpt from "Yahi Archery" by Saxton Pope ...... chapter "Handling of the Bow" "He changed the position of his drawing hand for different ranges. For near shots, his right hand was often drawn as high as his mouth. His extreme length of draw was not over twenty-six inches, while for small game and near shots he shortened this to eighteen or twenty inches. He never drew any shaft to the head. In drawing, his right arm was held close to the body, while the shoulder was markedly elevated. This gave him a hunched appearance, but it permitted him to hold arrows under his arm, and in other ways must have favored his peculiar mode of shooting. It also threw his right arm and forearm into the same plane with his bow." Notice the phrase ... "his right arm was held close to the body" ..... "shoulder was markedly elevated" ... " hunched appearance" ..... "arrows under his arm". I never judged shooting styles "of all indians" .... only demonstraited what 'i've learned over the years of trying to figure out Ishi's style.

@user-lv9it1nb4h

3 жыл бұрын

@@markswanson3337 , а по-русски можно? Или ты не ферштейн?

@markswanson3337

3 жыл бұрын

@@user-lv9it1nb4h Translation:.... can you speak Russian? Or are you not ferstein? No, I do not speak Russian ..... Goggle Translate I'm not sure what you are saying with the second statement.

So this is one person’s style?

@alternator7893

Жыл бұрын

It was a style used by many western American tribes not just Ishi. Ishi was instrumental in popularizing bow hunting in the early twentieth century. He’s pretty well known by archers and people interested in archery and archery history.

Reminiscent of many tribes in southern tip of Africa… all from the shoulders… not the back like medieval archery…. This style is very very inefficient and totally personal.. it seems somewhat moot to try and shoot like a single person….. like African tribes it is for hunting in open areas with not much cover…., very small movements

@markswanson3337

Жыл бұрын

I say in the video that this is a regional style of several western tribes, not of just one person, namely Ishi. If the result of the method is ... "very small movments" ... that do not spoke game .... it is hardly inefficient if the people employing it survived for centuries by it

Highly highly ridiculously inefficient

@markswanson3337

Жыл бұрын

Interesting .... when something is used within its own perameter of invention ... nothing is inefficient.

@alternator7893

Жыл бұрын

I think it’s actually pretty cool. Holding the bow horizontally makes it harder to spot and pulling the string without lifting the shoulder is a very good way to conceal your movements from an animal or an enemy, add in the fact that the bows were very small/compact and that makes it pretty much the perfect stealth style.