I love sitting a friend in the sweet spot and see their face when I tell them the center Chanel is off.. it's Priceless to see them get up to check and shake their heads in amazement. I even trick myself at times. So much fun!!!

Coming from an audio engineering background I think gene is one of the best sources for audio information. You can rely on quality information and expertise.

Great video! Having that strong phantom center really ups the “wow factor” when “non-audiophile” friends listen to a well setup system. Almost without fail their first comment is not believing how they can hear the singer in the center, then a close second is the illusion of the sound stage, and then in third place is the tone/clarity.

@Pohgrey

Жыл бұрын

Don't forget the speakers disappearing illusion too! My son, who is not a hardcore audiophile, made that comment about my speakers when he heard them. He literally said "wow, it's like they disappear!". Best compliment from a non audiophile ever!

@AndrewB23

Жыл бұрын

I don't think any non audiophiles would say any of those things, all you get is " wow that sounds really good"

Very helpful info. Unfortunately, so many of us are stuck with the situation you described, but the info will help out many seeking a better center.

I remember my first time hearing the Phatom Center channel it was magic

Gene, I did exactly what you are showing here in my recently completely purpose-built theater: L/R tower speakers at 60-degree spread aimed directly at MLP, Rockwool Comfort Board fully lining the front wall behind the AT screen, Rockwoool Safe n Sound directly behind seats and ceiling first reflection, and absorbers and diffusers per Anthony Grimini along the side walls. End result is a phantom center so focused it's "eerie" 🙂

@Audioholics

Жыл бұрын

Incredible isn't it? Hard to listen any other way after.

Hi Gene, nice to see you again. Loved this video! Instructive and informative. To wit: you pronounce your surname with 4 syllables. First time I have heard that, though I do have a hearing problem... You have a Marantz turntable. That was unexpected, I lusted after one of those for some time, especially after learning who made it! Now I'm chasing high-mass and focusing on Pro-ject, as I have several pieces of thier gear. Very cost effective. What were those exquisite large towers? Those look right up my alley, what with a hearing problem and all, and I love ribbon tweeters! Oh, and it was a short video. My attention span shrinks every year! Anywho, loved it all! For the love of God, please carry on!

Love the phantom center. Sometimes I have to check my receiver to make sure I’m still in 2 channel. Especially with Dominique Fils-Aimé. Her recording make it sound like my surrounds are playing

👍 Acoustically treated front wall (including an acoustically treated projector screen) do great things for soundstage (including phantom center effect)

When I had my Polk SDA's I had to get up, stick my ear to ithe center channel and check to make sure it wasn't accidentally turned on. Those speakers produced a literal "wall" of sound.

I've utilized the sumiko setup guide, give it a try!

Phantom center is so nice when set up properly, literally hear the voice coming from where they are on screen instead of just in front of it

Thanks for your information

I always have to check if I'm actually in stereo mode. Got a great phantom center going

Hi Gene, just a comment about your instrument playing room and the rack between the speakers. I'm sure there are good reasons not to place anything between the speakers, but more because of the reflection points that can occur but it will not mess with the center image in any particular way. The phantom center is a stereo effect that is "recreated" in our brains by the projection of the sound directly beamed from both the speakers to our ears, it got nothing to do with the actual physical space between the speakers. As long as there are no objects between the listener and the speakers that are messing with the projection of the sound, and as long as the speakers are not placed too far apart (which otherwise can create "a hole in the middle"), you should get a distinct phantom center as long as you are sitting in the sweet spot.

I unfortunately don’t have the room for changes but my tv and audio rack are between my front speakers. Somehow I get a really nice center image with vocal’s 🤔

I haven’t treated my room and my stereo speaker placement is in the corners, but I’ve positioned them and myself at the correct distance and I have a very convincing phantom centre. I sometimes have to double check audio isn’t coming out from my physical centre speaker, it’s that good.

¡ Gracias por el video Gen ! El tema de las reflexiones y absorción esta genial, pero algo muy importante y que no se comenta es la inclinación, los grados, ¿ cuantos grados hay que girar las cajas respecto a los puestos de escucha ?, partiendo de que un sonido directo con la posición de los Tweeter mirando directamente a los oídos en la posición de escucha tendrás un excelente central fantasma pero... ¿ que calidad de sonido tiene este ?, según cada fabricante y su construcción puede que mirando directamente en algunos modelos el equilibrio de las frecuencias viajando en el espacio de la sala y su retardo sea el correcto pero en otras se escuche demasiado agudo y analítico dejando el sonido original alterado. Tambien a veces al girar las cajas puede que cambie la altura de este central fantasma por la interacción de la sala, si, la sala es primordial, pero en la inclinación esta tambien ese punto dulce de la calibración. Estaría bien que en otro video hicieras pruebas y nos contaras o recomendaras según tu experiencia ya que eso no lo podemos escuchar a través de un video. 💪🛸♥🌌

I have an excellent phantom center with very wide dispersion speakers. I can totally fool people into thinking my center channel is active when it's not.

Gene, using your advice I was able to move my speakers (on stands) just a few inches to improve the phantom center. Thanks. I'm running a set of Elac UB52s with a concentric midrange/tweeter and was always surprised that they didn't create the phantom center better. I wonder, is there a certain test tone frequency that might help in making this kind of small positioning move?

I have set of GedLee speakers ( LCR ), and when I switch my centre channel off, it’s almost unnoticeable. They image so well that I can’t tell if my centre channel is actually off. I have to walk right up to my screen, inches away, and turn my head left to right to finally hear that it’s actually switched off. Earl Geddes is a legend! His speakers are simply amazing.

@Cowclops

Жыл бұрын

I don't doubt it. Being able to do phantom center does depend a little bit on your room acoustics and the off axis frequency response of your speakers, but when they're capable its reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally good.

@harpalchauhan428

Жыл бұрын

I have dali zensor 7 as part of my set up but if i don't tell no one its playing in 2 channel they will always believe my centre channel was on until i play same song and say move closer to the centre channel, and they get near it they will realise its actually not on. Lol

@audioholics my Ohm Walsh speakers have a sweet spot where I can be directly in front of or sometimes outside any of the left or right channels but can still clearly identify and enjoy a clear phantom center. They’re semi omnidirectionals so the soundstage is massive left to right as well as for height. Would love for you to get your hands on a pair or Walsh Tall series 1000+ to review!

Hello Gene, I was struggling with this topic as well. I came across the late James Bongiorno's Trinaural processor (non digital) that is supposed to create that center channel with an actual speaker. Besides the processor (about $3k) one needs a third speaker. I am not affiliated with the company that manufacturers the processor. Is it snake oil or the path to a better sound stage and listening experience? I have a pair of Focal Utopia Diablos and if I want to proceed down this path, I'd like have to sink a pretty sum into another pair of Diablos to get that 3rd speaker.

I try and get the phantom and move my speakers way out to listen and i love it when it all clicks, but as you said a lot of recordings or streams or difference right left channel volumes including Old Jazz ensembles have left instruments and right instruments or sem out of balance and it drives me nuts. Nina simone and Shelly Manne are good examples

Gene, I really have a question. In my experience when I get the correct phantom center imagen, better result I archive using a pulse or a pop balloon sound, normally that ocurre as you say with proper acoustic condition, I have same acoustics absorción panels and diffusion panels and of course correct position of the speakers in the room and the sweet spot. Ok, nothing new in this lines I know, BUT, something NEW accurres, the sound change for good, the tone are better (like a violin sound more like a nature violin) have more detales, and not only the center phantom imagen is more accurate, when you have like a quartet you know where they are, between the loudspeakers and not like a dot between them you have now a realistic scenario. But for me, the change that I like most is the sound, of the tone, the dynamics, timbre of instruments, it's more like you hear with only one speaker and dont have this turbulence or blur in the sound not only on the imagen, but in the clarity and quality of the sound. Do you have thats experience?

I always thought that good placement was not for center but a wider sound stage. Pretty sure that's the goal of a great 2ch system. Called sound stage and not just center channel. My 1st time hearing a set of Vanderstyn speakers. It was the 80s and the TT was air driven Mapleknol. The music was Bruce Coburn acoustic guitar. What i heard was BC playing right beside me, now that is soundstage. I still remember that day and the details.

I have a 49inch TV on a heavy duty table stand ibetween my Quad ELS63 speakers which are tilted in towards my sofa about 7ft from the TV screen. Most advice about the Quad speakers is to have them about 1m from the back wall ,they push sound out the back as well as the front, but mine are about 1ft from the backwall and turned in towards the sofa. I get an amazing stereo sound stage and vocals are dead centre depending on the mix of the music. My listening room is also my lounge, it's 17ft long by 10ft wide with a ceiling height of 8ft.I have the hi-fi on a rack in the corner to the right, then right cabinet speaker, then right Quad speaker, the TV on the table, then left Quad speaker, then left cabinet speaker, then a Vinyl storage unit with an amp on and lastly a trolley with my desktop pc on. all on the 17ft wall. The sofa is opposite the media system about 7ft from the TV table. I have a Quad 66pre amp,67 CD player,66 FM tuner and 606 power amp plus a Cambridge streamer and a Project Debut Carbon turntable. The amp on the vinyl storage is a Roksan Kandy series 3 amplifier which I use for listening to the PC,DAB radio and the TV+Bluray player. The cabinet speakers are Monitor Audio Silver 6 speakers which are connected to the Quad hi-fi and other components. In front of the sofa is a plain pine coffee table which is the same height as the TV table and has all my remotes on (the Quad system remote looks like a part from Star Trek), various vaping accessories and of course my wireless keyboard for the pc. I am very happy with how my system sounds although due to having neighbours above and below I can't play music as loud as I would like. The apartment is in a block of flats mainly constructed of concrete.

After getting my system setup a few years ago, the imaging was so good that I was fooled into thinking my center speaker was playing and got up to check. Several times. I had never experienced that sort of effect/detail before....

When the center is off, should i move the speaker or increase the volume of 1 speaker so imaging gets centered?

Don’t expect to get great phantom vocals from all recordings. There’s plenty of crappy recordings that just won’t produce it in any meaningful way. I noticed a good improvement when I connected up a seperate power supply to power my Cyrus amp, so I might conclude that the amp or DACs power supply may help.

@RodneyAllanPoe

Жыл бұрын

The same goes for movie soundtracks played in stereo, either surround downmixed or two-channel...it's much worse, actually. How many times I've turned on subtitles, it's absurd.

@-MarkWinston-

8 ай бұрын

99.99999% of music Ive listened to have a phantom center, unless it is meant for the voice to come out from a particular speaker. Many recordings are not dead center, its slightly to the left or right, it is still within the phantom center and no sound is audible from the left or right speaker.

Definitely was amazed the first time I experienced a sound stage from two speakers. I've labeled myself as a critical listener, and enjoy any genre that gives me a solid center and virtual side surround. Correct speaker setup is a must, but some music recordings just don't have the magic.

Appreciate the content! I have front ported speakers. Would you still recommend acoustic treatment on the front wall?

@Audioholics

Жыл бұрын

It males little difference if your speakers are sealed, Front or rear ported regarding how you should treat the acoustics of the front wall.

@j.craigh.3480

Жыл бұрын

@@Audioholics Wow, I had no idea. Thanks!

I often read the speakers completely disappear when you have them setup properly, with the correct distance, toe-in etc. Isn't that somewhat up to the recording as well? For example the older Beatles-records mixed in Stereo, with singing in one speaker and instruments in the other. Do you still get the speakers to disappear then?

One of the Biggest debates that seem to be ever lasting 😂😂😂.... For a single main seat home theater, if a good phantom center is achieved, can it eliminate center channel ??? Really appreciate your opinion Gene... !!!!

@justinbyrne5736

Жыл бұрын

I don't have a centre channel on my AV Receiver l run 4.1 never get any problems at all with dialogue, l prefer it because dialogue comes out of left & right Speakers instead of just the one speaker

I’m watching this because I’m setting up a 2.1.2 set up. I don’t have a place to include a center channel and after a year of using klipsch the fives I feel like I don’t need a center channel

My system is great for home theater, 2ch and LCR.

Mmm phantom center. I run mackie HR824s which have pretty uniform dispersion since they need to work as nearfield speakers, but I use 'em as my home theater speakers and don't use a center speaker. That does mean off axis viewers don't get dialogue anchored to the center, but my setup isn't very wide to begin with so most of the places you can sit are pretty good seats.

@Cowclops

Жыл бұрын

@Mike Glavin Is it easier to be rude to strangers on the internet, or easier to just not comment on a post you don't really care about? A legitimate question.

@finitevoid4520

Жыл бұрын

@Cowclops I also run Mackie HR824 Mk II's as Stereo: fronts | home theatre | nearfield speakers - 100% concur 🙂 they're on 3x axis Display arm mounts - easily moved to get proper Imaging and Soundstage,...

@Cowclops

Жыл бұрын

@@finitevoid4520 Love it. They're pretty capable speakers and i think there are very few audio situations not optimized with "a pair of h824 mk2s and a huge sealed sub." I think the only thing going against them is, because they're not massive tower speakers with multiple woofers, their peak output and bass extension isn't quite on par with some (more expensive) speakers on the market... but I fixed that with a pair of HSU ULS-15s.

@finitevoid4520

Жыл бұрын

@@Cowclops nice Sub choice - kudos. I run: OPPO UDP-205 multi-region as Primary source (among others) /w: Mogami XLR's. unfortunately, no room for Subs 😞

I recently moved my coffee table off to the side. While the audible difference is negligible, psychologically having nothing between me and the two speakers (Focal Kanta N°2) is pleasing.

Do you get good imaging from those RBH towers even though the midrange and tweeter are horizontally positioned?

@Audioholics

Жыл бұрын

The mids/tweeters are NOT horizontal. Not sure what you mean. And yes they image incredibly.

This center channel topic is one of my pet peeves, I don't know what percentage of sound goes to the center channel on an average multi- channel movie sound track, but it sounds like more than 50%. So now we have a situation where most of the sound is coming from the worst sounding speaker in the system, I qualify that statement with the caveat that some very lucky system owners use the same speakers used in the front mains for the center channel, kudos to them. So the question of how to get quality sound without a center speaker is a very important one.

@Audioholics

Жыл бұрын

You're center channel should be treated with the same importance of your main L/R Speakers. For upmixing 2CH music, you need to turn "center spread" on to preserve stereo imaging when using the DSU.

I just noticed something, where's the tweeter on his main towers?

If you move the rack, you end up using longer speaker cables. No issues with that?

@Audioholics

Жыл бұрын

Lower gauge 10awg for the win.

Gene, you never show a ceiling shot, so what do you have on your ceiling in your big room. And maybe let us know where the placements are. Thanks

@Audioholics

Жыл бұрын

I showed the ceiling in my last acoustics video. I have some absorption up front and 3D diffusion above the listening area.

@wally6193

Жыл бұрын

@@Audioholics Your last acoustics video, lol, damn you do so many vids it's hard to keep track of them all, but thanks for doing them all. What was the name of that video? I found it, thanks.

@Audioholics

Жыл бұрын

@@wally6193 kzread.info/dash/bejne/fnlq05WzcpaphqQ.html

I'd Say even when setting up a multichannel system, having a 2-channel strong phantom centre is already a good start...

i actually like the phantom center.

If you don't have room to move the speakers away from the wall, I would advise against damping the wall behind the speakers, preferring diffusers to achieve more spatial depth. Fight your corners with bass traps and your first reflection points with absorbers! Then measure. EDIT: I just be more clear. You should use dampers behind the speakers and diffusers between the speakers if you don't have room to move the speakers from the wall and if you mainly listen to music.

Allegedly, coaxial speakers like KEF (many others) are the best at it because of time alignment. Any truth to this? Not saying others can’t but some speakers are better than others at the phantom center game

@Audioholics

Жыл бұрын

The point source argument is a bit overstated IMO. I think it's advantageous in a nearfield situation, however.

@Novilicious

Жыл бұрын

@@Audioholics I agree. Check out Audio Advice’s new Kef theater showcase…it’s interesting where they place speakers because of the ultra-wide sweet spot. Interesting 🧐

My golden ears have a very good phantom center, great soundstage. Interestingly, toe in doesnt improve this. What it does is, to my ears, make the highs too crisp, too detailed. I know lots of people like this kind of sound. Not me. I had a hard time accepting that toe in was not ideal for my setup. I thought i must be hearing it wrong lol. But moving the speakers to a more neutral position immediately improved the sound and tamped down those sharp highs while maintainig center image and actually improving soundstage. So its like any have said, play around with the positioning, see what works FOR YOU. And dont force yourself to like something because everyone else likes it (ie Diana Krall).

You do know that to get your imaging perfect you need powered speaker cables, usually Audioquest, and $5000 power cables. There's no other way to do it. BTW, do I really think that speaker cables can change the way a speaker images? My cat doesn't believe that.

@Audioholics

Жыл бұрын

Lol

@andrewjackson9417

Жыл бұрын

@@Audioholics You have to keep in mind these are well educated cats. They've helped me build 2 great home theater systems. But they don't believe fancy cables with racing car toys on them change the way a speaker images.

Rack between the speakers should not be a problem, on the contrary it is in many cases a diffusor. Your aversion is probably psychological, as there is a physical object where you expect Diana Krall or stevie ray Vaughan to be.

Hi audiophile engineers. Please help me.

There is only one way to achieve a believable phantom centre image with 2 channel stereo, and that is by using cross-talk cancellation. Without this, the phantom centre channel is diluted and vague and not as pronounced as the left right sound coming from the speakers. That is because you are hearing 4 sound arrivals at both ears.

@Audioholics

Жыл бұрын

That is the way we may be heading in the future.

Foam sucks almost useless.

@Audioholics

Жыл бұрын

Depends on the density. Gel mattress foam works really well.

I remember getting it right a few years back on my budget system - the feeling that I could reach out and touch the singers head was surreal. Oddly I've lost that of late - same room, same system, same furniture, but I have cleaned /rearranged things minorly. BTW - 'a little 2ch system' - we live in different worlds!

I try and get the phantom and move my speakers way out to listen and i love it when it all clicks, but as you said a lot of recordings or streams or difference right left channel volumes including Old Jazz ensembles have left instruments and right instruments or sem out of balance and it drives me nuts. Nina simone and Shelly Manne are good examples