Since the Bingley’s father was in trade, the fact that Mr. Darcy does consider Mr. Bingley a close friend, I think, gives us an early hint that he has the capacity to not be as stuck up as he first comes across.

@julianskinner3697

7 ай бұрын

Netherfield is let at last. That is code for Bingley is not a land owner.

This is why I've often thought that Jane and Mr Bingley's marriage wasn't quite as advantageously one sided as made out to be. Yes Mr Bingley had money and Jane did not, but his money came from trade while Jane was a gentleman's daughter whose family had been a part of the landed gentry class for at least a couple generations.

@EllieDashwood

3 жыл бұрын

That’s true, she had some class!

@Carolinagirl1028

3 жыл бұрын

@4Freedom4All Bingley's father's money came from trade not from an estate (ie land ownership) as The Bennets and Darcy's money did. That makes things a bit different for him. Bingley is defintely a catch based upon how much money he has, especially in Jane's case due to the entailment of her father's estate and her having very little dowry. Still though in the social hierarchy of the time he is considered below Darcy and Mr. Bennet, even though Mr.Bennet has less money, because of where that money came from. Historically gentlemen had been considered to be those who were part of the landed gentry. However I do believe Mr. Bingley is regarded as a gentlemen in the book. This shows the many changes that were beginning to occur at that time with all the wealth that was being derived from other sources such as trade. So basically the only reason I said it wasn't as one sided as made out to be is because while Bingley has the money Jane lacks, Jane has the heritage of coming from the landed gentry class that Bingley lacks. It was definitely a very different time period with very 'odd' rules compared to today.

@kayfountain6261

3 жыл бұрын

@@Carolinagirl1028 I have assumed that moving 200 miles also helped. The Bingley family were from North Yorkshire so in that area their background and family history in all its grubby details would have been well known and they might have been treated more like the Coles in Emma. By moving away they can draw a veil over their past and make it seem more distant. (Darcy 'returns the favour' by sending Lydia and Wickham to the north away from everybody who has heard the gossip)

@ameliecarre4783

3 жыл бұрын

@4Freedom4All Bingley was rich and absolutely adorable so people were all too happy to overlook the young age of his fortune. But indeed he didn't own land (a matter of time, since he had the means to correct that) and he definitely was a tradesman's son. So no, technically he wasn't quite yet entirely part of the gentry, and so he wasn't marrying down with Jane. As for his sisters' reasons to be against the match, being social climbers they would have liked him to marry someone from a far more prestigious family, and Darcy's reasons were because he thought Jane, and the Bennetts, to be ambitious social climbers too and didn't want to see his friend taken advantage of and eventually heartbroken.

@killiansirishbeer

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, and watching these videos I sometimes wonder why Mr.Darcy was friends with Mr.Bingley?!

I have often thought that one of the main consequences of the Bennett girls NOT having a governess is their lack of propriety and running wild. It also put them at a huge disadvantage for the future as they themselves would not qualify to be hired as a governess after their father's death by any reputable family. I think of this when Elizabeth tells Jane that she would not marry, and she would be the governess for Jane and her children.

Remember that "modern languages" also included Italian, so in Persuasion, Anne Eliot was able to translate the Italian canto for her cousin.

Gentleman weren't constantly at leisure - being a 'good master' of a large estate is hard work. Darcy was dedicated and worked at it - that's what made him admired by his tenants and servants. He took it seriously. We may interpret his visiting and socialising, as 'leisure', but think of it in terms of business meetings and networking, and it makes a lot more sense. yes, gentlemen had more leisure than the working class, but any man who didn't look after his estate was a fool.

@simplystreeptacular

2 жыл бұрын

THANK YOU for saying this so I didn't have to!!

You mention that the one thing Mr. Darcy lacks is that he is not a member of the nobility, but an extremely important point-----which Jane Austen's readers would have picked up on IMMEDIATELY -----is that he is clearly closely related to the aristocracy and therefore, although he has no title himself, is basically next door to the nobility. As you point out, ancestry and family connections are crucial in bestowing gentility-----or not. Mr. Darcy is clearly well-connected on his father's side; it is implied that the Darcys are old established landed gentry, who have owned Pemberley, one of the greatest estates in England, for generations. 10 out of 10 on the gentility meter! But on his mother's side, Mr. Darcy has bona fide aristocratic ancestry. How do we know this? Because Mr. Darcy's aunt, who is his mother's sister, is LADY Catherine de Bourgh, addressed as Lady Catherine, not Lady de Bourgh. The title of Lady followed by the first name means a woman is the daughter of AT LEAST an earl, possibly a marquis, maybe even a duke! Lady Catherine is therefore a genuine aristocrat. So then was her late sister, who would not have been Mrs. Darcy, but LADY Something Darcy (we aren't told her first name). Mr. Darcy is therefore the grandson of this high-ranking nobleman, and probably either the nephew or the first cousin of whoever currently holds the family title. It is this noble blood to which Lady Catherine, and Mr. Darcy himself when he tells Elizabeth that her connections are so decidedly beneath his own, refer when they denigrate the Bennet family and assert the overwhelming superiority of their own. Their aristocratic ancestry and connections are a primary source of their pride. Contemporary readers of Austen, particularly us Americans, may not pick up on the fact that Mr. Darcy's mother was born into a high-ranking aristocratic family, passing on this noble ancestry to her children. This puts Mr. Darcy way over the top of the gentility meter and into the very highest class of English society. This is what ultimately raises him, in the eyes of society, so high above Elizabeth in rank.

@philippaharris8951

3 жыл бұрын

Lady Anne Darcy is Darcy's mother's name.

@kansmill

3 жыл бұрын

And his cousin Colonel Fitzwilliam was the youngest son of his (referring to Darcy) uncle Lord - in Ch30. I think the uncle I elsewhere referred Earl of -, with Jane Austen using- in place of actual name.

@carolsosebee9032

2 жыл бұрын

0

@thedatolles6289

2 жыл бұрын

Interesting as I did pick up on that even I'm American, I always wondered about his mother as she is really only mentioned in this way, Lady Catherine does refer to him as her nephew multiple times, which puts her daughter Anne as his 1st cousin which would make in modern times to close to marry as the gene pool is too close and not varied enough not to have genetic issues with their children

@sarasamaletdin4574

2 жыл бұрын

@Theda Tolles Unless there is some rare genetic disorder running in your family like hemophilia (like Queen Victoria’s family had) first cousins marrying has similar odds of negative genetic issues with children on par with women age 40 having children. So it’s not something that’s really alarming (and intermarrying can amplify positive genes such as two musically gifted cousins would have very high odds of having a musically gifted child). It’s only if you continue to marry cousins for generations that it becomes a genetic issue (like certain countries even today do it as family tradition, expecially in Middle-East). Not that I am advocating this. But it’s more cultural issue what is considered too close. But if you fall in love with your first cousin and it’s the first in your family as far as you know and you aren’t some genetic illness carrier then I would be happy for you.

Laughed at all of your examples of the working class. "Except for the fact that some of them all look the same." They're all the fabulous Brendan Coyle! Love it!

@IndomitableT

2 жыл бұрын

Indeed, a wonderful actor.👏🏽👌🏽🎭

Some of these prejudices filtered into the 20th century too. When my parents married in 1951, my mother was encouraged to quit her job as an in-house model at Neiman-Marcus because my paternal grandmother didn’t want their name “used in trade” (Pretentious? Yes.). The story always sounded quirky to me, but your explanation shows me where she was coming from.

@lllowkee6533

6 ай бұрын

Even in the 1950 s a working lady was expected to quit her job and stay home after marriage.

certainly explains the shock that the Industrial Revolution causes when business owners began to make crazy money and over shadow the landowners. So many Titles and country houses lost in the UK and the Industrialists become the new aristocracy.

Love that you mentioned North And South so many times, no one ever talks about it but I ADORE that miniseries.

This is the video I didn't know I needed. I laughed out loud at: "Do you work for a living? It doesn't matter if you're a blacksmith and reading Tennyson every night- I'm sorry, but you're not a gentleman!" Keep up the great work :)

@EllieDashwood

3 жыл бұрын

😂 Aw! Thank you!

@Furienna

3 жыл бұрын

@4Freedom4All That depends on if you have your own fortune or if you live on public welfare. The former is seen as better than the latter.

@ccburro1

2 жыл бұрын

Of course. Thank goodness for the combination of The Enlightenment, capitalism/(free) markets, industrialization, entrepreneurship, public education, expansion of the vote (including assistance from the world wars), etc. A society built upon aristocracy (monarchy/divine right) is a collective delusion.

@user-wx4nv8xr3d

2 жыл бұрын

@@ccburro1 not sure about that

@whitemakesright2177

2 жыл бұрын

@@ccburro1 Victorian-era society (both in America and Europe) was explicitly a society built on everything you've listed. Medieval society had more strictures in some ways, but in others was far less stratified. The strictures went both ways, too - there were strictures on both the lower and upper classes, and those came with protections for both the upper and lower classes. One example is peasants being tied to their land. They couldn't leave their land, but the land also couldn't be taken from them. Post-Enlightenment society, by contrast, has removed all the strictures from the elite while removing all protections from the working classes. Most of what you've heard about the "horrors" of the Middle Ages are myths and less made up by the Enlightenment figures in order to justify far greater horrors.

I can't believe you didn't talk about being a "natural"/ilegitimate son or daughter. Like Harriet was.

I thought that I knew a lot about regency times because I read all the Austen's novels, but now I whatch your videos and I can't believe how little I really know about history. Thank you for sharing all this knowledge! It's so important too understand this topics when we read classical books, so everything has sense!

Honestly if he looked like Richard Armitage, I would decide he was in manufacturing too.

I wish someone would have reminded Caroline Bingley that her father was in trade.

Class: maybe she's born with it, maybe... nah, she's probably born with it.

@emilybarclay8831

2 жыл бұрын

Maybe she’s born with it, maybe it’s matrimony

Enjoyed watching your video! Nicely done. The part about 'accomplishments' expected of a Lady was evidently one of Austen's favourite targets for satire. She does that right from _Northanger Abbey_ where she makes it a point to tell us that the heroine Catherine Morland is completely without it (she cannot draw, sing, play the piano or anything of that sort, but reads Gothic novels instead), to _P&P_ where Miss Bingley enumerates them as _'the certain something in her air, manner of walking, tone of her voice, address and expressions'_ (all which Miss Bingley thinks she possess, and yet do not have patience to read to a single page from a book), and all the way down to _Sanditon_ where Austen says the Miss Beauforts were _'very accomplished and very ignorant'_ and whose only object in flaunting their supposed (superficial) skills in drawing and the harp was to attract admiration (and a rich husband). I think she even mention something about the schools teaching the right way for a Lady to get in and out of carriages as an accomplishment! 😁 Too bad for us that Austen wasn't able to finish her final work.

@EllieDashwood

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, imagine all the amazing novels she could have written if she lived longer! 😭😭😭

@gwillis01

2 жыл бұрын

@@EllieDashwood Curse the century she, Jane Austen, was living in for not having a cure for the chronic disease that she suffered from. I am not 100 percent sure, but I think Jane Austen was suffering from Addison's disease. Novel writing is something you can do even if you are a little under the weather. You can even do it in bed if you are feeling really weak.

@MsJubjubbird

2 жыл бұрын

​@@gwillis01 Austin and Mozart are the greatest disappointments in terms of modern medicine and public health not being made available earlier and subsequently the world missing out on their future amazing masterpieces

@tymanung6382

Жыл бұрын

@@MsJubjubbird European 1700s 1800s public health? Was that not a contradiction ? European social service started in Prussia by Chancellor.Otto Von Bismarck to.biy.off growing no. of industrial + other workers.Tragically, there was no NHS for Jane Austen. in England, nor equivalent for Wolfgang Mozart.

@tymanung6382

Жыл бұрын

European social services in 1700s + 1800s?--- a contradiction in terms/reality!! 1st ones came from.late 1800s Prussian chancellor Otto Von Bismarck to buy off growing no. of industrial + other workers---- tragically, no NHS for Jane Austen, nor similar for Wolfgang Mozart.

I like the fact that your introduction to the skillshare ad actually is related to what you’d been talking about

I like your reasons for Margaret Hale getting over John Thornton; that made me laugh. I seriously hadn't considered that idea but it makes sense. One thing I thought of early in your video is that surgeons were not considered respectable during Georgian times. A doctor was because he dispensed potions and your comments around income. By contrast a surgeon conduted surgery, blood let, pulled teeth and set bones and worse many were barber-surgeons and also cut people's hair. The barber's pole today reflects those origins. It wasn't until later in the century, think George Eliot's Middlemarch, when scientific curiousity was growing and medicine was expanding that this started to change.

@EllieDashwood

3 жыл бұрын

That’s so interesting! I think it’s funny that they clumped cutting people (surgery) and cutting hair (barber) in one skill group. 😂

your videos are so high-quality! you deserve infinitely more subscribers.

@EllieDashwood

3 жыл бұрын

Aw! Thank you so much! That’s so sweet!

One of my favorite parts of P&P is that Mrs. Gardiner and Mr. Darcy end up being real friends - something that would have never happened without Elizabeth and her influence on Darcy. It’s so sweet.

@NemisCassander

2 жыл бұрын

Likely, but not definitely so. It's likely because Darcy would not have met the Gardiners without Elizabeth, but it's unclear how much her influence swayed him. Recall a couple of things. 1) Darcy clearly doesn't hold Bingley's history against him, to the point of wishing his sister to marry Bingley. 2) Darcy's main objections to Elizabeth were the lack of decorum (manners) expressed by her family, and he was endeared to Bingley because of his good manners. As such, it's not out of the realm of possibility that Darcy, had he gotten to know the Gardiners at all, would have had a similar response to them as he does in the book.

The sight gag of Brendan Coyle's characters put up for example was hilarious.

I just love your sense of fashion. Your outfits are always on point

@EllieDashwood

3 жыл бұрын

Aw! Thank you!!!

@genxx2724

2 жыл бұрын

@@EllieDashwood Ah

Now it's interesting to hear trade was not considered genteel in Britain and Europe on whole, but in America it was where a common man could earn himself a massive fortune and become part of the middle or upper class. But then after breaking from Britain we kind of just became feral, so our rules were a blend of old world and new. Old established families would look down on the upcoming rich, such as the merchants, but as long as you've got the money and the charm you could pretty much blend in. That is until you went across the pond.

@yvonneherdman4951

2 жыл бұрын

Feral? I beg your pardon. Please speak for yourself.

@NemisCassander

2 жыл бұрын

I will note that the attitude towards merchants was a clear differentiation between North and South in the antebellum world. The South followed the rules of gentility (basically inherited from the British) while the North did not, at least to the same extent. I should note that many other cultures (famously the Japanese) put low esteem on merchants.

@rawilliams5881

5 ай бұрын

Feral, I love it. I'm going to repeat that next time I hang out with a British colleague.

In pride and prejudice as well with Sir Lucas. Despite him being knighted Caroline and Louisa sneer at him because he owned a shop.

@EllieDashwood

3 жыл бұрын

So true!

@mollysmith4018

3 жыл бұрын

@@EllieDashwood social hierarchies are a nightmare. It’s a bit strange to think that the Bingley’s would be seen as higher up on the social ladder compared to the Lucas’ with them both being in trade

@tessat338

3 жыл бұрын

He would have been addressed and referred to as Sir William Lucas. His wife was Lady Lucas but his sons would not have inherited his knighthood. However, Mr. Bingley opens the Merrifield ball with Charlotte Lucas because, as the daughter of a knight, she was the ranking unmarried young lady in the community.

@Mistressrichards

2 жыл бұрын

Sir Lucas was slightly elevated above Papa Bingley with his knighthood. So technically he outranked them. The only true reason for snobbery was the amount of wealth he had accumulated

I have always thought that Jane Austen went to some length to demonstrate that good and bad manners were not the province of any class Examples in P&P are Lady Catherine, whose manners were atrocious, and the Gardiners, whose manners were impeccable. We can see Darcy’s reaction to both (in the 1995 production) in his obvious enjoyment of the Gardiners’ company on one and and his delicious eye roll at Lady Catherine’s interruption when he’s talking to Lizzie at Lady Catherine’s piano.

@raphaelledesma9393

8 ай бұрын

The sad thing is… since Lady Catherine was so high up in the social ladder, she could be rude without much consequence especially to her inferiors. No doubt, put her next to Dukes and Earls and she would be deferential. Unsurprisingly, this trend continues until today.

2:45 "what do they all have in common?" I guess Brendan Coyle lmao

Ooh! A new video! Lovely! I thought the Bingley‘s fortune was from button or trimmings manufacture. 😂 It wasn‘t just the independent income, but time: generations away from that step up. So while Bingley‘s Dad earned to money to lay the foundation, Bingley was doing his part by investing in land and putting his sisters in the way of marrying up. Looking forward to your governess video! I have a soft spot for Jane Eyre.😉 In Jane Austen, there are so many genteel gentlemen’s daughters who were slipping through the cracks of society...

@EllieDashwood

3 жыл бұрын

😃😃😃 I could see Bingley being very enthusiastic about buttons. 😂

@susanscott8653

Жыл бұрын

I think JA throughout her writing shows us women slipping through the cracks in society at every stage of their lives, from the Bennet sisters to Miss Bates. JA knew that life.

@oekmama

Жыл бұрын

@@susanscott8653 exactly! Although her heroines get happy endings, the way JA meticulously sets the stories up, really shows how much she sees the situations of the women as being dependent on the prudence of the parents, especially but not solely the fathers. Sort of the sins of the father thing… It took me years of rereading to appreciate what JA was saying about Mrs Bates, Miss Bates and Jane Fairfax in Emma.

Thanks so much for this. I am writing a novella set in 1833 (in the Lake District) and I like a lot of information like this to help define what is happening. The central character is the adopted daughter of an Earl (but no one knows for certain from whom she was adopted), who married a Baron. Her husband's family and title were old but they were of much reduced circumstances. When he died, he left her all his property, which to be honest wasn't much. Her best friend's family is respectable on both sides, but never impressive. Her father is a Vicar and she herself married a gentleman who owns an estate with a lot of land and tenants. Not a gigantic fortune but a good one. But they are good friends and in private are rather relaxed around one another. Watching your events I see the need for an extra character--a lawyer who is on attainer to Lady Banesworth (the lead) who can gather officially gather rents from those leasing suites of rooms in her manor house. All her tenants are gentry, with perhaps on exception who is a physician. But I do need this other character.

@astrothsknot

2 жыл бұрын

hit me up when you publish.

Ellie hits another home run. Delightful. Also: I could read the Comments all day! Some excellent observations which are giving me a deeper appreciation of the novel. Thanks to all!

Anne of Green Gables that's required reading for all 🇨🇦 girls!!! A great 🇨🇦 series. If I rmember correctly I got up to her being in WWI. I did my bit. 🤣😂🤣 Take care and have fun!!! 😷😎😷

For all the times I’ve read Pride and Prejudice and seen most of the movie versions multiple times, I never knew the Bingley money came from trade or from the north!

@yasmin3677

3 жыл бұрын

it says in the start of the book, but austen doesnt talk about it again during the novel

@NemisCassander

2 жыл бұрын

@@yasmin3677 I think that fact goes to show how clearly her audience would have picked up on that one sentence, because it's really important for understanding the dynamics between the Bingleys, the Bennets, and the Darcys.

One of the common terms you might come across in 19th c. Literature is the "Impoverished Gentle woman". Seeking work as a Governess or Ladies Companion was

2:46 It literally looks like the same actor played all roles! 😄

'modern foreign language' is still taught as a basic requirement in high schools in the UK usually French, Spanish or German - an MFL grade is required for the English Baccalaureate which is an extra certificate you can get in high school

This was so interesting and helpful! Thank you very much!

Lovely video, Ellie! As usual.

Revisiting old favorites of your videos this evening and I still find the hierarchy of regency society just fascinating! Also, random aside...I feel like I hear a baby in the background around 16:50??

Another winning video. Well done Miss E.

OMG Your vidoes are so addictive! I am a history buff, my girlfriend was watching you channel, now I cant get off!! Grazie Mille!

North and South had that Richard Armitage SMOULDER which got me good. GURLS!

I studied English Lit for my ALs waaaaayyyy back in 2005. It is what sparked my love for creative writing and blogging! However, being South Asian and English being our 2nd language, i do believe so many nuances were lost upon us 😄 wish we had access to resources like this back then! Awesome channel keep up the good work!

@tymanung6382

Жыл бұрын

English + other W Euro Colonial.imperialusts very selectively revealed certain.limited facts about their societies to colonized peoples, at all levels of English classes. Inner workings of landowners + capitalists (see recent research on how 2 English colonizers secretly swindled India of huge no. of rupees or pounds, while other research shows that iver 200 years, London stole USD equivalent of trillions of dollars, starved to death millions of Indians, etc.) London did not reveal existence of English dissedents + their goals, tactics organizations, like the Chartist trade unions, or Irish, etc. Celtic resistance vs. English empire---- Rising of 93 in Ireland, mid 1800s mine worker rebellions in.many places, Peterloo.Massacre (preview of Amritsar Massacre). etc. all cancelled/censured---- so called "wrong" ideas for then natives!!

I loved all the movie clips here!

The words noble, gentle and polite all have 2 meanings. They mean you're a good person and they mean you belong to the upper classes. Likewise, vulgar, common and peasant all have 2 meanings. The assumptions of the rich and powerful are built into the language we speak.

I love your dress!!

I often think that P&P is a fairy tale, not just for Lizzie Bennet, but for her Aunt and Uncle Gardiner - who in the final chapter get included in the family party in Pemberley. There is so much precise locating of class in the books: the Bingleys are trying to erase their trade background by buying land, Mr Weston in Emma is genteel because he's bought Randalls, the Coles are upstarts because they're merely upgrading their existing house. And then you get nuance like Mary Musgrove _technically_ outranks her mother-in-law because she's a baronet's daughter, and there's friction from that, because she's tenacious about seeking precedence in Mrs Musgrove senior's house. And it feels really strange _now_ that there's so much distinction between living off rents and working for a living, but that's because the merchant and professional class won that culture war.

According to this criteria, Jane Bennet actually "married down" when she accepted Mr. Bingley. The snobby Bingley sisters showed their coarseness and ignorance when they looked down on her. She was a Gentleman's Daughter, while the Bingleys got their fortune from TRADE! 😱

@mariar3767

6 ай бұрын

😊 Yes Indeed . He must buy an estate and become a gentleman to get at her rank.

Mr Thornton

Definitely love your videos! They’re all very high quality and I often use them as references for historical fictions. I do have a question about the gender dynamics. You said that women in the Victorian era were defined by the men in their lives, including their brothers. I’m curious as to if this was only older brothers or younger brothers as well. What would have been the dynamic between a lady and a younger brother?

this is very well done. you could be a gentleman or lady and be a servant ... if you worked at the Palace [in the old days], attending the sovereign etc.

Could you do a video on landed gentry who get financially unlucky and have their income shrink? I think that would be called GENTEEL POVERTY Do you think that you could do a video eventually on genteel poverty?

North and south is my favorite btw

@EllieDashwood

3 жыл бұрын

N&S is so great!

This is a great video, wonderful job! I'm super interested in what kind of sources you're reading about the class dynamics of the genteel professions and lower, in particular those who were lawyers. Do you have any recommendations for further reading on this?

@joannaszulc1496

2 жыл бұрын

I second this question!!

@alexsoundso

Жыл бұрын

I would also love to know that!

I must say, Ellie Dashwood is a very handsome woman.

You say that trade was looked down on, which is true. But not that much in England, trade and gentility could still intermarry in England if the money and education aspects and other advantages matched. In continental Europe the differences in class were much more stiff between this barrier. When Dr Octavia Cox made a video about Bingley’s class she had a good quote there explaining the issue and how complex class is.

Love your outfit :)

@EllieDashwood

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you!!! 😊

Keep inmind that Mr. Darcy is involved in the administration of his lands and estate, which is why he returned a day rarly and encountered Elizabeth and her aunt and uncle at Pemberly.

I though that social visits should be at least 15 mins and that’s why Caroline not staying 15 mins when she calls on Jane in London was indicative of her not wanting to keep up the acquaintance

New to the channel, but on a binge of your videos! I'd love to see a follow-up on the intersections of gentility & military service, especially as it is portrayed in Persuasion. Lord Elliot HATES that "upstarts" can gain wealth & even title through military service, especially naval service. How much of a game changer was military wealth/title? And did people REALLY rise that often from obscurity to wealth through the military, or was it mostly people like William Price in Mansfield Park gaining opportunities/promotions through nepotism/connections?

@KeeliaSilvis

2 жыл бұрын

Also would love to see a video on "acceptable" professions for leisure-class genteel sons. This is plot-relevant in Mansfield Park, Northanger Abbey, and Sense & Sensibility, along with varying familial pressures on what was or wasn't an acceptable profession. It seems a genteel son, even a younger son, could only acceptably be (1) a military/naval officer, (2) a lawyer, (3) a clergyman. Were those really the only options?

Living off the interest on your bank accounts and stock dividends is now in the 20th and 21st centuries called using income investing to support yourself Whole books have been written on income investing

What old fashioned book do you recommend on refinement, etiquette, and accomplishments for ladies?

Love this! Just wondering where people such at the lecturers at universities would fall in the class ranking, considering how governesses who raised young women would have to be of an appropriate background.

@kathyp1563

3 жыл бұрын

Good question!

@emilybarclay8831

2 жыл бұрын

Probably middle class. Governesses were basically seen as ‘failed’ because they needed to get a job to live. They were the bottom of the genteel class and were only considered genteel because of their birth

Dr. Thorne by Anthony Trollope also has a lot to say on this topic. Also, I feel like this video is desperately missing Edward Ferrars.

I love your digital painting. This video was very helpful. I’d written a somewhat regency era short story, where the gentleman in question owns a shop. He is appropriately snubbed by the love interest and her parents, however would he be entirely inappropriate for him to simply own the shop and have other people run it for him?

@EllieDashwood

3 жыл бұрын

Aw, thank you! If he owned the store and had people run it for him, he’d still be looked down upon since his money comes “from trade.” However, this could at least distance him a bit from the every day transaction of it all which definitely helps. If he was in trade on a large scale (think a whole trading enterprise versus owning one shop) that could notch him up a small bit too.

@ciaomichaela

3 жыл бұрын

@@EllieDashwood thank you!!!

Was it the Bingley's dad? I thought it was the grandfather. The "shop" was a generation once removed so they were able act like it wasn't from trade.

I have never understood why the leisure class is seen as doing nothing. They have many lands, estates to manage, tenants, hundreds of employees. This is a lot of work. They didn’t do manual work, that’s for sure. They delegated. They employed people. But they had decisions to make based on what their upper employees reported to them. They are basically CEO of a large company. Would we say that CEO do nothing, because they have directors, managers and hundreds of employees?

My first thought: I don't know how it's called the little accessory holding your sweater (it's that the translation? Sorry, this it's not my first language) but I need it in my life. Thanks! It's was a very interesting topic. And I'm wondering if the Dashwood sisters from Sense and Sensibility had a governess.

@EllieDashwood

3 жыл бұрын

That is a good question! I believe that the Dashwood sisters' mother oversaw their education as Mrs. Bennet did her daughters. The main education methods for girls were either governesses, their mothers, or being sent to a school for girls (which were usually formed by a few governesses working together to rent a big house and take boarding students (Georgiana Darcy was in a school for a while, as was Becky Sharp in Vanity Fair). And I absolutely love my sweater clips! I just added the Amazon link to them in the description of this video.

Can anyone explain to me the difference between nobility and aristocracy? And are the gentry members of nobility, aristocracy or a separate class? Does aristocracy include gentry? I would like to clear some confusion.

Really interesting. One question : did the artistic prowess of gentlemen influence their gentility ? If a noble was a great poet, writer,painter, did he have his gentility score up ?

@annap9112

2 жыл бұрын

Actually the opposite. If he used his talent strictly as a hobby and made a point of not earning money from his artistic endeavors, he was fine. If he was suspected of using his writing or painting for financial gain, he was in the danger of being vulgar. Even if he just put too much emphasis on his art, he might be seen as sliding downward. Of course, gentlemen who published usually made a least a little money. But they were supposed to not mention it too much or treat it as unimportant. This is why women writers usually published anonymously and were sometimes pressured to give away the proceeds to charity or family. Ladies could not be suspected of doing anything that resembled a profession. I don’t mean that men couldn’t enjoy fame or fortune from being artists. Best families in the land might invite you over for dinner if you were famous and in vogue. But they wouldn’t want you to marry their daughters

3:28 makes me think it's time to rewatch Pride and Prejudice 1995

late to the party :p i know, but i think a fascinating example is george warleggan from poldark (mostly the books). the merits of the series can be discussed, but what i find interesting abt george is that he NEVER lets go of his origins, his grandfather was a blacksmith, and even after he's knighted he still feels tainted by it, he still feels inferior, and that is his defining trait. even if his eventual peers, after he's landed ofc, see him as respectable, he can never let his background go. whereas ross, who is both scandalous and relatively poor, never doubts his standing.

Hey, Ellie? I have a question about where someone would land on the are they a member of the gentility and you're the only one I can think of to ask it. But I don't know if I can ask it here or where I could ask it of you. This person is an actual historical figure so that might make it easier?

@michaelduggan9347

2 жыл бұрын

Ellie has a blog with a contact form, I believe? She might answer?

Re: which trades are considered genteel or not, it really boils down to power balance, and who needs whom. A shopkeeper needs anybody and everybody, but a large international trade magnate may not even need gentlemen whereas they may control enough supply lines that gentlemen might need them - thus though not noble, kinda more equal. A lawyer that needs to be hired by clients directly is no more than a servant, but a lawyer on retainer suggests he might have maintained himself but was sought by the client - and a client who could afford to pay in advance before knowing he wants the service. So it has a more respectable appearance. As someone from another feudal culture (and was once colonised by the English feudal culture), think of it like this: What makes a gentleman and lady is simply people who have been descended from titled nobility (which is exclusively a grant from a monarch), who has managed to maintain the ability to remain independent, i.e. does not need to financially depend on another, or at least not outside of family and not through actually working. This indirectly correlates with things like having land (titles granted by the monarch historically included land; it is a way for the monarch to reward loyal servants with the ability to provide for themselves, i.e. from the land, which is a kind of freedom), and money - otherwise you couldn't avoid working! Such people are expected to acquire the manners that befit their class, because if you're associated with the king you shouldn't come across as no better than the common people. But not having it doesn't disqualify them; it just means they're gentlemen who do not act as they should.

The lazy ‘leisure’ class often lost their estates bc of not paying attention and upgrading the property. (Some gambled it away.). In DOWNTON ABBEY, Robert had neglected the property . And Highclair , in reality, had to have America money pumped into it via a rich wife! DOWNTON ABBEY was then saved by Mary and Toms pig farming, certainly below Roberts standards! Mr Darcy did a great job of sucking-up to Elizabeth’s aunt and uncle!! Why didn’t Elizabeth introduce her uncle as such.?? He was the blood line . Love your videos. I’m obsessed with P&P.

Mr Weston was in trade, however since he was from a good family, Emma was able to look past that because of his family.

Aren’t people like Lord Iveigh or Sir Thomas Lipton, owners of beer and tea companies, considered in the top caste?

@andaminiart4288

2 жыл бұрын

Weirdly enough, owning huge plantations of crops didn't count as trade. People who did had other people managing actual selling and trading of those crops, and they themselves were landowners, not traders. Think of Thomas Bertram from "Mansfield Park" (he is genteel and landowner, but also owns plantations on Antiqua - he travels there in the novel to oversee things there).

I somehow felt like back then even if people were poor (obviously it’s rare cases bad usually gentile families or middle-upper class) your distant cousin would still help you and take you in, education would be assured, you would be well fed, clothed, with properly lodging and activities. Whereas today, your fat distant cousin would rent you a cottage cheaper and you would clearly not have servants or even one cook to keep with you because even your distant cousin couldn’t afford it. It seems like connections went farther a long back in the day. Of course it’s likely the exception to the rule and includes the upper crust only- I’m sure very poor people were still struggling.

So I would be consider in regency era a lady....but not super higher one like Elizabeth Bannate Because My paternal grandfather use to own suite tailoring shop....

So basically if one wanted to humilate Caroline and her sister to get back at them for attempting to act all god awful they can just make the remark about their father and that should shut them the fork up.

@sophieruby9135

3 жыл бұрын

@4Freedom4All Lady Catherine de Bourgh didn't want Darcy to marry Caroline, she wanted him to marry her daughter, Anne. That's why she was so upset at Elizabeth, she had been planning for her daughter to marry Darcy since they were children. Elizabeth ruined that plan.

@cosette999

2 жыл бұрын

@@sophieruby9135 the interesting twist is that had Mr. Darcy been interested in Ms. Bingley and not Elizabeth the marriage never would have occurred and he would have probably been forced to be content with a marriage to his cousin since Ms. Bingley lacks the amount of backbone one would require to face off against Lady Katherine and win.

@sophieruby9135

2 жыл бұрын

@@cosette999 Darcy's cousin looked too sickly to produce an heir so I'm not sure he would have gone along with the marriage. I think Darcy would have married whom he wanted because he too had a backbone. I think he appreciated Elizabeth having one.

Okay so I’m still a little confused (fully for the book I want to write) would the daughter of a dance master be a lady/would tutors and masters be gentlemen?

@fruzsimih7214

2 жыл бұрын

I guess they wouldn't, because masters were seen as a type of glorified servant, like governesses. But maybe Ellie can enlighten us on that.

@jjj4068

2 жыл бұрын

@@fruzsimih7214 probably, Coolio

I wish you could pronounce "Leisure" such that it rhymed with "Pleasure".

A barrister's gown has a little pocket near the back to receive payment from clients as they were not allowed to handle money directly

Was this similar in America at the time? Edit: I'm really curious how the states worked back then🤔

Does that system apply to the American's society too? Also when happened if a farmer owns their own land, do they still count as working class or genteel?

@caciliawhy5195

3 жыл бұрын

That was the big draw in people going to America back in the 1800s and the 1700s was to own land.

@shutterchick79

3 жыл бұрын

Nope, it never did. Since we never had an aristocracy. Rather than hereditary titles or connections, it's been money and race that separated classes in the US. There's no aristocracy to marry into.

Many English estates and castles are struggling to this day, if not lost all together, are turned into B&Bs or wedding venues. Mr Darcy would be appalled!

I can't help but to think these people, despite their richness, don't sound very happy. You'd think with money comes a liberty of fulfilling all your wants, but instead people create for themselves artificial restrictions to limit their life experiences. In fact I'm thinking, my working class farmer ancestors, for all the trouble they had, might have lived more fulfilling lives. At the very least my foremothers got to bring up their own children and be the #1 mommy figure in their childrens' lives. They also got the pleasure which comes from exercing yourself, the self respect which comes from work well done, and the satisfaction of receiving the fruit of your labour (literally!)

In Emma, how/why did Miss Bates and her mother lose their fortune?

...was one way to be employed in this situation.

Casting Director: “we need someone to play a working class guy in a period drama.” Brendan Coyle: *puts on bowler hat* say no more, fam

Even years later I am a bit confused... being a gentleman was used as a class distinction, an ethic standard and an heritary line? I understand that hereditary title like “Lord” can be transferred to a male heir. But to be a “gentleman” you had to be a landowner and not have a professional career? So if a sons father made enough money to buy land and live off interest of a fortune he would not be a gentleman but his son might be?

@EllieDashwood

3 жыл бұрын

So holding a status as a gentleman was more like a points system. And all the different factors I discuss in the video are worth different amounts of points that add up to show how much of a gentleman a man was. So, imagine if it’s a 100 point scale. Now let’s look at Darcy’s point ranking: Coming from generations of genteel people: +25 pts Owning a lot of land: +25 pts Having a lot of money: +20 pts Education: +10 pts Manners: +10 pts Having a rank of nobility: 0 pts (Doesn’t Have One) Total: 90 points He is a 90 point gentleman. Next up, let’s look at Bingley: He had some genteel connections in the past: +20 His father was in trade!: -5pts Owning a lot of land: 0 Having a lot of Money so he lives a life of leisure: +15 pts But the money came from trade!: -5pts Education: +10 pts Manners: +10 pts Having a title: 0 Total: 45 points So Bingley is a 45 point gentleman. Now, let’s look at Bingley’s Father: He had some genteel connections in the past: +20 He is in trade!: -20 pts Owning a lot of land: 0 Having a lot of Money: +10 pts But the money came from trade!: -5pts Education: +10 pts Manners: +10 pts Having a title: 0 Total: 25 pts So Bingley’s dad was 25 pt gentleman. So even though ultimately Darcy (90), Bingley (45) and Bingley’s Dad (25) were all considered “gentleman” how society viewed them was different. Darcy was SUPER genteel. While Bingley was in the middle. And Bingley’s dad was at the bottom of the gentleman barrel. Anyway, as for it being generational, since money, occupation, family relations, manners and land are inherited and they are major factors of gentility that is how “gentleman” status is passed on from one generation to the next.

@EllieDashwood

3 жыл бұрын

Also on the ethical code part, think of it as the ideal behavior all men would want to achieve in order to get a +10 points on the manners section of this points system.

@LK-se2ju

3 жыл бұрын

@@EllieDashwood Omg that makes so much more sense.

@LK-se2ju

3 жыл бұрын

Also, a second son of a second son could easily slip into a lower class? Like a landowners youngest son might become a clergyman and his youngest son might join a military force because it’s his only choice?

@EllieDashwood

3 жыл бұрын

@@LK-se2ju Yes! Of course the military was still considered a genteel profession along with the clergy. But eventually the children of younger sons could easily end up slipping lower and lower in the ranks if they’re not super careful in who they marry, what occupations they choose. Etc.

Wait, so if someone has a father that was a general and a mother's grandfather that was also in the army, would he/she be considered a gentleman/lady?

@jamestown8398

2 жыл бұрын

That would be a point in their favor, but to be a gentleman/lady this person would need a few of the other factors as well.

@missemotional8710

2 жыл бұрын

Oh, so basically if they were to fully be considered a gentleman, they would not only need parents with genteel professions, but good education and manners?

Wait...they worked out how to make social calls that never last more than 15 minutes? Is there a book I can read?

Ok, now I have two questions: 1. How DO we know that Bingley is first-generation gentry, solely based on him looking for an estate? 2. I wonder about later 19th century, do Stoker's Jonathan Harker (inherited soliciting business from a partner) or Stevenson's Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Utterson (a lawyer), etc., count for gentry?

@helengordon-smith5753

27 күн бұрын

1. Jane Austen tells us when she introduces the character 2. Jonathan Harker & Mina have genteel connections, but they certainly aren't gentry. If Lucy had become Lady Goldaming she would have visited Mrs Harker but she wouldn't have invited her to dinner parties/balls/public entertainments bc they were in different social spheres. Mina was employed by Mrs Westenra as a companion, so her status was similar to a governess. Similarly, Arthur could employ Jonathan, so they can't socialise as equals and Jonathan is not a gentleman. *Edit - meant to say I think the Dracula qu is an interesting one! It raises a lot of the nuances going on here

Darcy, " has land, he has money, he has MANNERS" Me: 👀

@salvadaXgracia

2 жыл бұрын

🤣 Same! But I guess being aloof and snobbish is considered way better manners than running around flirting and giggling like the youngest Bennet daughters.

🥇🥇🥇

So what did happen to the nobility during ww1

And why was bad be in trade?

I would court you in a heartbeat. Unfortunately I don’t know how to play the violin or piano, but I can cook and fix your computer

o

hello dear friends