Thanks for the breakdown! Allow our everyday rider and project engineer to add a few comments. His personal Photon is approaching 8000km and has been through floods submerging the motor and heavy mud conditions. 1. We'd like to state that the Photon is specifically targeted and designed to be an alternative choice for fully integrated EMTBs such as the Bosch and Shimano motors. Ensuring the system runs smoothly with pedal assist is the main performance goal. We wanted to get as close as possible to match the pedal assist feeling of fully integrated systems with a bit more ohms. Throttle capability is simply an added advantage for a burst of power when needed. Running at full throttle on 1200W makes complete sense as to why the motor will heat up fast. This is not what the system was intended to be used for. You can, however, run it continuously using throttle in the appropriate gear and at 750W rated power. 2. Regarding the assumption of outrunner being the wrong choice is quite relative if you look at our design goals. The outrunner motor was chosen due to its superior performance in such a small form factor in terms of torque and efficiency. If the design had an inrunner, it would be twice the size with lower torque and terrible efficiency for power larger than 700W. If we did this, we would be sacrificing the good chainline as well as clearance between the motor and bottom bracket. In the Photon, you will also notice that it is potted, unlike other ebike and skateboard motors. This allows the coil temperature to conduct to the potting (direct contact) and then to the stator plate itself (again, direct contact). From the stator plate, there is a direct pathway to conduct heat to the whole motor system including the heat sinks. 3. The hall sensor failure that you have experienced was also not due to the temperature.The PCB for the hall sensor is also rated up to 140deg C. ESD protection is the reason for the hall sensor failure. Hall sensor failures are extremely uncommon given the amount of Photons sold and have also been addressed and revised by the development team. 4. From our records and our resellers' records, the quality of the latest batch is very stable. We do apologize for the initial batch failure rate being higher than what we aimed for (although not near the levels reported by some online), we tried our best to test with third-party lab and in-house as much as we could before launching, but some issues arise only in mass production. Since then, we have addressed the issues that caused the failures. Meanwhile, we are improving our servicing networks and improving parts availability to ensure a quick turnaround time if there are servicing needs. 5. A point that we'd also like to stress is that the failures that have been seen so far are 90% caused by us upscaling our manufacturing. For a small company to start mass producing is a major challenge. There has been a few design modifications needed but these are very small adjustments and do not affect the base design of the system. We have been revising our scaling-up strategy along with the manufacturing and assembly processes. This includes better implementation of QC procedures. 6. Running it in the "Unrestricted" mode is no problem at all in terms of durability but you will run into thermal limiting. We have enabled access to the motor's peak performance simply because it's great fun to have that available when riding. 7. Shhhhhhh, we don't talk about the Proton yet... although... it's aimed to run at higher power levels continuously but it will also be heavier and have a larger form factor. Details about the motor itself will also be released later on. We're taking our time and working on scaling up our production and quality capabilities first.

@alank808

6 ай бұрын

What about extended warranties on the units that you admitted were a bad egg. What I mean is a reasonable extension to the units that were built during the bad batch that you speak of. I have had to return mine to BMW once already with complete failure. 48volts no throttle and no programming alteration. The return fixed the failure but I couldn`t get a reply to the failure. Service was prompt but a thousand buck unit should be Youxiu

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

I appreciate you responding here. Will bring up some of this stuff on the Friday video.

@cycmotor

6 ай бұрын

@@alank808 Thanks for your question. We are glad to hear that your unit was sorted out quickly and that BMW provided you with good service. Any failures that need to be replaced will be replaced with the latest components or the latest batch (whichever is applicable in the RMA case). As the Photon has a 2-year warranty, we will not be offering extended warranties at this time. However, we may consider this or a similar solution in the future.

@cycmotor

6 ай бұрын

@@HighVoltageKits Please feel free to reach out to us if you need any other info.

@jbrizz99

6 ай бұрын

Amazing to get such an honest and detailed response from a manfacturer. Major kudos.

Your talking points are quite valid, and I'm glad you mentioned them. I have the Stealth that I've been quite happy with. I haven't had it in race mode at all. This video doesn't scare me, but I haven't had the need to blaze past 30MPH on my Trek.

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

Cheers. If you don't push it then you could be okay. Much depends on the type of riding you do. The CYCs I have seen that have made it to large milages have generally been run at lower power levels,

Thank you for this. I've been hesitant to go for the Photon now I have further reason to wait/pass until the issues are corrected by CYC.

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

I have heard they are going to do a Gen 2 whether they can resolve the heat issue I am not sure. If you want a motor that can run at 2kw this probably won't be it.

@user-br6js9ky4s

3 ай бұрын

@HighVoltageKits Did you hear from the manufacturer that the second generation will be released? Do you know the approximate time?

@kalef1234

Ай бұрын

Same, went with DM01

Great analysis! I haven't seen the motor design broken down like this before and it gives me a lot to consider. We live in the southern US and are considering e-bike conversions for our gravel road bikes. I look forward to hearing your long term reviews. Many thanks!

@HighVoltageKits

2 ай бұрын

Thanks mate. Right now it’s broken for the second time. The halls went. Now it’s powering off randomly. I’ll do a full trouble shoot when I can free up the time. There is a new torque sensing bbshd as well as the TOSEVEN motors that might be worth a look. Cheaper as well. Cheers

Good summary of CYC motors. I heard they have some overheating issues but I didn't realize it's self inflicted by their own motor choice!

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

Yeah it does seem to be that way. The only one that is an inrunner is the X1.

@ukrytykrytyk8477

6 ай бұрын

@@HighVoltageKits thanks. So because X1 is an inrunner then should it cool down better? When I'm looking at the X1 it doesn't seem to have much ribbing to dissipate heat.

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

They can get hot as well. They don't like sustained power over say a 5km climb as I found out. But yes as an inrunner it can shed heat more readily. It has its own issues though mainly concerning the rotors.

I'm seeing a few comments from people seeming to avoid the Photon, instead perhaps promoting the Toseven motors which are even more of an unknown. I've been riding my Photon since April, and almost all of that is offroad, including a recent trip exploring around Wanaka. I'm totally impressed with the Photon, and for my use - long trips where low power levels allow more range - the bike and motor have performed absolutely perfectly and better than any OTS ebike at many times the price. If you want the equivalent of a electric motorcycle, the Photon is not for you. If you want a DIY system comparable to OTS ebikes, but with better performance, better feel, light weight and lower cost, the Photon is worth considering. And for many modern 1x, Boost 148 mtbs, there are no other systems that will fit, at any price. CYC has multiple systems that will, and the Photon is almost invisible.

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

I try and steer clear of promotion of any particular product even the stuff we make although I am proud of it. I present my experiences. I have been quite clear that much like the long term viability an d longevity of the Photon the TOSEVEN is very much the same. On our Discord there have been some issues present themselves. I ran into an early firmware issue albeit on an evaluation model. New motors by any company are unproven. Like the BBSHD earned its reputation and so do others. I think with CYC some caution is warranted as they do have a higher failure rate. For that reason I would not recommend them as a commuter that you have to rely on or for a business person that needs it to work and would suffer without. You state the ideal use for the Photon. Essentially it gives you the feel of a Bosch or Shimano at much cheaper price point than the off the shelf bike. Ridden the way you do sounds like its sweet spot. I think they should focus their marketing there. Show people how they can beat the $10,000 plus bike by converting one you already own rather than hinting that its a 2kw motor. Its versatility to fit many frames with a small footprint also is where it shines along with a slick app. Cheers

@JoLe1991

4 ай бұрын

the frame compatibility and small chainring options really sets it apart from the rest of bb mount motors. the price is outrageous, though, and building it around an outrunner is just plain stupid. what is the higher power density good for if the heat cannot escape? I have suggested toseven to redesign their motors to accomodate 38t chainrings with the required offset. that will take time though, and until then, the choices for boost hub, long travel hardtails remains almost inexistent. there are very few frames that will happily take a bafang or toseven motor, these are the Ragley bluepig (4130), IZIP frame from China and another hardtail enduro frame from China. most other long travel hardtail frames just don't have enough chainstay clearance to accomodate the motor housing, let alone a dished 42 or 40t chainring.

@hindesite

4 ай бұрын

@@JoLe1991 you'll have to grind off the ISCG tabs on the Blue Pig, and you'll still have a stuffed chainline if you need to use the smaller chainrings. Photon on a Blue Pig would be awesome though!

@JoLe1991

4 ай бұрын

@@hindesite yes, the tabs need to be gone, and the smallest chainring you can go with is a 40t from lekkie or other cnc machined 7075 models (precialps etc...). 40t is decent small in combination with a wide range cassette. nearly all other modern mtb frames have such small chainstay clearance you cannot even fit the motor without putting a ton of spacers in between. i'm installing the toseven DM02 on the IZIP frame now. the motor design is very good (apart from the large final gear as with bafang and tongsheng), but they have messed up the firmware lately, therefore I requested an old firmware to install while waiting for a proper update. the DM02 has a much better heat dissipation than the photon and is decently compact and lightweight.

Nice vid! It very much mirrors what you said in your earlier CYV Photon videos regarding design trade off. I personally still plan to get a Photon as the design tradeoff is ideal for me. I'm after a small, light motor with high peak torque for uphill sections on MTB trails (plus some boring commuting at non-motorbike speeds). Despite living in a hot climate (Australia) I'm betting i will rarely see extended periods of 90+ degrees.

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

Sounds like you will be running it well within its limits most of the time so you are likely right. It will definitely give you an assist on the steeper stuff in a very compact package. You do get a two year warranty which is nice although you might be having to wait a while for parts unless there is a dealer in Australia that is doing servicing.

@muzzarobbo

6 ай бұрын

i would be interested to hear how you go with using this for mountain biking in terms of heat for short hill climbs. im also in australia and considering this motor.

@Intermission42

6 ай бұрын

@@muzzarobbo I got my CYC Photon installed on a Trek Marlin 6 today. My first ride was so much fun. Mostly flat / low grade fire trails, some tougher technical MTB trails (for me) including steep sections I'd never even think of riding up myself. Followed by riding on the steep local roads. 24 degrees ambient temp. Staying on "race mode". I weigh 100kg. Motor never got above 65 on any of the trails, and only hit 90 once when testing full throttle on roads going up a long and steep hill at 30kmph+. It cooled down to 60ish faster than I thought it would by just going back to a medium PAS level. I don't have anything to compare it to, but the torque sensing feels really good. The bike shop guys who installed and test rode it said it felt like the Bosch torque sensing motors. Long story short I'm very happy. Let's hope she ends up being reliable for me! Edit: I didn't go much faster than 30 or maybe even 25kmph on the trails. At that speed I was reaching my comfort and confidence level on the rocky surface. I surprised myself getting airborne a few times too.

Just passed 1000km on mine, and really could not be happier. I run mine at low power and mostly off road, and it absolutely beats the pants off all other ebikes I've ridden and will go pretty much anywhere. I don't think I've ever seen temps over 70C, and generally well under 50C*. Given the compact size, the smooth torque sensing, I'm not seeing anything else that comes close regardless of price. I think that you have to accept the cooling limitations of the outrunner design, and not expect to be able to run this at 1.5kW continuously. And TBH, how much power do you really need anyway? My BIL is a paramedic, and he almost daily sees the results of people riding way too fast on ebikes. For the niche market where more power and speed is everything, this is not the motor to get - but for more mainstream, calmer riders, this might be the best one - if it develops a record for reliability. *Hey CYC, datalogging would be nice!

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

Good comment. Always enjoy hearing from you. The video here is the extreme but I wanted to see how it would cope even in the colder weather. I think with your usage you ought to get a long life... I hope I have not jinxed things saying that. You have a point in terms of what else is there. It definitely fills a niche. The torque sensor I have said all along feels really nice. Perhaps the DM02 will shape up to be a competitor. We will have to see. It's very new. Beyond that there is not a lot. The Tongsheng is flawed. There are a few other kickstarter things. In terms of power you need as much as possible!!! LOL I think that CYC should be more realistic with the way they market the motor. Make it plain as day what its for and be open about the consequences of thrashing it at the limit. They might seem obvious but offering a 2 year warranty at 2kw is asking for trouble. But if they say otherwise people will question its durability. Rock and hard place. Hopefully the reliability does improve. I feel for your other half. That's a tough job I used to do that one. The idiots where I was were riding quad bikes, dirt bikes and skidoos. Been to a fair few of those. Some sadly fatal. Know your limits wear the proper gear and be able to stop as well as you can go fast are key. But people don't and think they are invincible with giant hubs and tiny brakes. It's not the speed or power its the person. If you cannot avoid an accident or limit the consequences you have no business doing it. That's my take anyway. Hope you having a good weekend mate. Cheers

@cycmotor

6 ай бұрын

Thanks! We're working on datalogging :) w

@hindesite

6 ай бұрын

@@cycmotor awesome, looking forward to that. Probably a bit niche for most people, but for this product would be really useful. Please keep working on the photon, I would probably buy a MK2 version.

@bradarmstrong1656

3 ай бұрын

@@cycmotor could you also please weigh in on if motor over heating is an issue? If so, what about a Statorade type product as sold by Grin Technologies? If not, why not? Just a few minutes ago, I ordered your mid drive photon. Then I came upon this video. Has any reliability upgrade been done on units shipping now?

@bradarmstrong1656

3 ай бұрын

@@cycmotor has the photon mid drive been paired up with a carbon fiber belt driving an enviolo continuously variable rear hub? with their electronic cadence control?

CYC Photon outwardly designed motor has a fundamental physics issue of increased proportional rotational inertia .Due to what is being rotated relative to a conventional inwardly designed mid-drive motor or a hub motor. Which reduces efficiency and increases the production of heat. But conversely the outward design does create greater torque relative to its size. So like most things in life there are trade-offs. And Statorade is an option for dissipating heat from outwardly designed motors. Thanks for another well thought out logical post. Even when the post seems to miss a few key points, It's always well thought out and fascinating to me. Keep up the good work.

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

Thanks. I read that you get more torque from an outrunner than an inrunner of the same physical size. Which is why the BBSHD is more torquey than the X1 its just bigger. Lower max RPM tho as well on outrunners. In terms of the statorade. It would be inside the casing still. It would not be inside the air gap. So although it would increase the transfer to the outer casing of the motor. It would not eliminate the main issue here which is the gap that is needed to allow it to rotate. At least I think you can't put it there.

@nc3826

6 ай бұрын

@@HighVoltageKits Outrunner circumference is greater, so naturally it's going to have greater torque. Versus an equivalent inrunner. And which is why a standard radial flux motor is an outrunner. Statorade wasn't designed to fully bridge the air gap for any outrunner, such as a hub motor. That would increase drag. But it still improves the heat transfer rate for an outrunner motor, such as the CYC Photon motor. And I'm not telling you to take my word on it, why not check with Justin at Grin Technology? FWIW, I'm willing to wager real money that it will make a statistically significant difference. But it's up to you, to decide if it's worth your time to prove or disprove its value. (Lastly, thank you for correcting my nomenclature. My dyslexia makes it difficult for me to use the most appropriate term)

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

I understand what you mean. Do you understand where there air gap is though. It's between the outside of the motor casing and the heat sink material. If you think of it with a hub motor. That would be like putting the statorade on the outside of the motor. Where it would just fly off into the air and run down the side of it. The air gap cannot be filled that way. If it could I think CYC would have done it from the get go. I was not attempting to correct anything on purpose. I will send an email to Grin though. Maybe they can help me to phrase it a bit better. I will add the explanation in to the weekly tech talk / chat I have started doing. Appreciate you getting involved. Cheers.

@nc3826

6 ай бұрын

​@@HighVoltageKits It is true, Statorade Is designed to transfer the heat for the air gap within the actual motor. So a subsequent gap between the rotation of a non-EMF induced motor casing and a heat sink will not be an appropriate application for Statorade. Redesigning it with tighter tolerances and/or a heat transfer material to fill the gap, such as oils or gels. Would be more appropriate for addressing that issue. But since the rotation of an electric motor normally, takes place between the stator and the rotor. And not an outer casing and a heat sink. It would be nice to have a visual representation of what's taking place? Hopefully a teardown of the CYC Photon motor, will be possible. Or a series of detailed diagrams. To 'fill in the missing "air" gaps' of understanding, at some point in the future. So we can visually see, what you describe verbally in your post and your comments, Also please excuse the tardiness of my response, but KZread didn't notify me of your response and I just came across it by random chance, Merry Christmas.

my old cyclone mini use to overheat shut down a lot in summer, different design than CYC but about the same size the heat sinks i made helped a lot but 35+c summer only so much, that's why i upgraded back then to the 1800-3000w big motor, it never over heated ......

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

Yeah. The issue here is putting on additional heat sinking won't do anything as the air gap will still remain. Thermal mass is important. Without it you can't run high power for long.

Totaly agree with your experience with the thermals. During the summer on 100+ °F days my photon was thermal throttling constantly. Now with 50°F days it rarely does but i usually stay under a kw and use pa mostly. Have 2600 miles clocked, about 3/4 pavement 1/4 singletrack. The only issue i have is my left crank arm bolt keeps coming loose after a few hours of riding with it being torque and thread locked correctly.

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

You are doing better than me at 2600! Long may it continue. The left crank issue. Take off some of the spacers if you are using them. They don't really add anything. I think they can prevent the left crank arm from fully crushing into the splines. The spacers there are another one of those things that its really hard to judge how many to use. I did not bother with them on the latest instal. Golden motor did not bother with them from the get go. Just make sure to clean the threads on the axle before you remove the lockring if you then take the motor off.

@diggyholme

6 ай бұрын

@@HighVoltageKits Thanks for the tip ill give it a try. 👍

@nc3826

6 ай бұрын

Statorade could possibly help with that throttling issue.... Since it's configured more like a hub motor than a conventional mid drive..... Best to contact Grin technologies and make sure you talk to somebody who is familiar with how the CYC Photon mid-drive motor is designed..... Just a thought, good luck.....

@mcfizzlestag

6 ай бұрын

Statorade will try to stick between the rotor and the stator, the air gap will still be there. Because of this I tried to use auto transmission fluid for a while in my cyc stealth. It worked wonders eliminating almost all the thermal throttling on my commute even in the summer. Downside was the poor seal the motor has so it couldn't keep the fluid in. Due to all the servicing I had to do on the motor, the seal only got worse over time. I ran the stealth between 600-800 watts, and after 5700 I replaced with with a Bafang m620 (it cost less than the cyc stealth too)

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

Thanks for sharing. If the Photon has a better seal it might work. Not sure I want to be the guinea pig though.

I was tiptoeing between the Photon and the DM01. I'm glad I chose for the Toseven DM01!

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

Its new as well but it has the thermal mass to dish out the sustained power and the rotor size to provide meaningful torque. The torque sensor is not as refined but I'm hopeful it will close the gap over time. It's about 90% there

@TimChump

6 ай бұрын

You dodged a bullet well done 🏅

I’ve considered a CYC and almost pulled the trigger several times- gen2, gen3.. But i always find some review video where they go for one ride, and the motor overheats, magnets are falling out, lol 😅 no thanks, Not there yet. ALSO the “user beta testing” as you mentioned in Your other video. That’s like the ultimate form of buyers remorse lol- to buy something, and by the time you get it they’ve already deprecated it and are focused on a new product. Nope nope Nope. Maybe their collaboration with EBC will allow them to step it up. It’s a no go 🙅‍♂️ til they fix the noise and the reliability issues

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

When the Photon came out I really wanted to try it. It is a fun motor to ride but I know I will just break it again so I will just let it get use as my wifes commuter. It's a good fit for her style and way of riding. Having the throttle is important for her has well. I do get the impression that they are spread a little thin having also been heavily involved with the EBMX stuff. I was well aware that they can be a bit beta going into it but took a chance. I think I will be looking at other things going forward with the projects I have going on. I don't really want to play with the now 4th generation of X1 they just lack guts for want of a better description. I think that some of the issues are because of the design of the motor. That is going to be hard to correct unless they go back and use a different motor. Not sure that is going to happen.

Luckily the only time I would use the throttle is navigating a deep, muddy rutted part of a track or pushing the bike up something very steep that I’ve dabbed on, and the rest of the time is pedal assist in 250W mode, toggling between 0, 1 and occasionally 2. I did have some issues with the speed sensor and assistance not cutting off at the prescribed speed on the last ride out, but it was also raining a lot so maybe that had something to do with it - I haven’t yet investigated.

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

Good idea and likely will net you longer life. Not sure on the speed sensor. Its tricky. Its not working quite right on mine as you can see if you look at the way the trip is behaving. The magnet is super close though so not sure what more I can do. I will play with the location. There is not an indicator as to the correct path and that is something that would really help.

Id like to see that air gap so I could maybe put some thermal paste around the motor before putting it back in the casing.

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

It's not the same as with the Tongsheng. The motor has to have an air gap to allow for rotation. So any thermal paste will stop it turning. Maybe I should have done a better picture. If you look for some youtube videos on Eskate board motors though you will see what I mean. The entire outer casing of the motor is the rotor which spins around the stator. The heatsinking is more of a protective casing than an functional heat sink for large parts of the surface area.

@WeekdayProductions

4 ай бұрын

@@HighVoltageKitsdo skateboards and scooters have the same problem with overheating? Is there something above the way the power of the motor is used on a mid drive that is causing issues?

Thanks for the video. So the real "safe" temperature for the Photon is approximately under 80-90 degrees, yes?

@HighVoltageKits

3 ай бұрын

I mean I don't think any motor should just sit for long periods at this temperature. The torque sensor is good and the way it fits a wide range of bikes is good but the motor itself I think is a poor design.

I was saying this on endless sphere from the very begining. This motor should be treated only as pedal assist 500W motor. Anything above that will significantly increase chance of failure! Anyway. I'm buying ToSeven DM02 instead of this overpriced junk.

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

You called it man.

thanks i know of a photon that failed in 2 months, light riding, never overheated but apparently has a higher fail rate than people know...CYC dragging feet on this.

@HighVoltageKits

5 ай бұрын

According to CYC is manufacturing defects. Not much use to the people with failed motors tho.

Motor tempratures looked to me to be noticably lower on the Pedal Assist lap.

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

Yeah. It was heavily throttling. If you notice the amps were also much lower. I'm not sure why it throttles more with pedal assist than the throttle but it seems to. It reduced it to between 500-700 watts. I can't display both on the same data screen though and I was wearing thick gloves due to the cold.

Is there anyway it can be modified to use an inrunner? Ive been using mine since May with no issues. But have it set to 300 watts max.

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

With enough money anything is possible. In a practical sense no. I'd stick to what you are doing especially if you are happy with it.

Interesting

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

Cheers mate

Good video! Why actually did your wife's motor fail? Or what did fail due to what? I guess she didn't run unrestricted all the time on full power overheating it constantly, right?

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

I was on unrestricted. I don't think she was thrashing it as much as me but she rode it in hot weather and it heats up quick. It could have been damage from when I was riding it. It was the hall sensor board that failed which is right in the center of all the heat.

how about putting Grin's statorade liquid in the motor then

@justinshields7501

6 ай бұрын

I was about to ask the same thing. It looks like it would be be possible. Probably have to use gasket sealant. So it don't leak out.

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

It has been discussed before and it's not a viable solution, unfortunately. It works with a hub motors structure but not this type. Maybe others can explain exactly why this is. I suspect it's because it would not fill the air gap and just make if more efficient to transfer to the outer casing of the motor.

@EVGizmo

6 ай бұрын

@@HighVoltageKits noted. if your ambient is 2 c and the motor is heating up, it would explode here.

@nc3826

6 ай бұрын

@@HighVoltageKits Statorade Is designed to be effective with outward designed motors, such as a hub. but also includes the CYC Photon. (Conversely the only thing Statorade would do with an inward designed motor, such as most mid-drive motors.is create a more effective heat path inwardly to the bottom bracket, which would be pointless. But a hub or a CYC Photon's outward design, utilizing Statorade creates a more effective heat path 'outwardly', allowing more effective air cooling) If what I stated was not convincing. May I suggest you check with Jason or somebody else at Grin Technologies... And explain to them exactly what mid-drive motor you're considering utilizing it with and fully describe how it's designed. And get their feedback on how effective Statorade would be? I'm willing to bet that if it's used appropriately, it will be effective.

@bradarmstrong1656

3 ай бұрын

@@HighVoltageKits Has it actually been tried after consulting with Justin of Grin Tech? Or, in consultation with Cyc engineering? I am really wanting a photon type mid drive. Any reliability solutions in sight? what does Cyc say?

What's the best mid drive motor overall for speed and doesn't over heat

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

It depends what you are looking for. The most reliable by far is the BBSHD still. You can reliably power it over 3kw with a high speed and have a reliable bike that will run for a long distance. You can overheat anything with enough work though. The CYC X1 will also deliver speed with a torque sensor but less reliability and its louder. Those are ebike conversion motors. Beyond that there are the bottom bracket motors from Bafang. Are you looking to make something or have something pre made? If you really want higher power then you need to look at things like the Sur Ron (modded) or Talaria. You are in motorcycle range then. Any of the DIY ebike systems will overheat given the right amount of abuse (a long hill at full throttle) The best ones will roll back to protect the motor. The hotter the weather the quicker it will heat up. I hope this helps. If you wanted to learn more you would be welcome to join our discord and figure out what might work best for you.

10:22 is a good indicator of noise level. Never had anyone turn around because they heard me coming on my BBSHD’s. It’s a shame CYC only makes beta testing products. Had a lot of hopes for this lil guy.

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

The failure rate is about 4-6% according to reliable sources (ie dealers) maybe the Gen 2 of this will be better. I think I am done tho unless they can somehow demonstrate dramatic improvements. It gets noisier the hotter it gets.

When the power is less than 500 W and the maximum speed is 25...30 km/h, do you think there would be any problems? But as you said, it's a lot of money for a restricted motor.

@ataksnajpera

6 ай бұрын

500W is fine but not more. However 1000 USD is way to much for real 500W motor. Reparabilty is very limited and expensive.

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

Yeah I think this is about right. Speed is less important I think than not letting it sit at high temperatures. I don't know many people yet with huge mileages on these either. It will be quite revealing as the months and years move forward and people start to need more and more servicing. They have a partnership with a decent bike company in the USA which I think is the main market for them. If they start to get dozens of requests though it will be tough to offer a decent turnaround for repairs and warranty.

What if they make the little air intakes in the motor itself?

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

I have pondered this. It would need to be done carefully as there would be a risk of grit and debris getting in there and that would at best make it sound awful. So the airflow would need some kind of ducting and it would likely get so complicated it would add a lot of cost. To the point where its easier to just say that its a 500watt motor and to run it far more conservatively. There are a few other solutions which I will chat about on Friday. I don't see why it can't just be an inrunner. Well I have my theories. But thats all they are.

I am running the photon on a long tail bike in South France (35°C in summer) with a lot of steep ways. Even on 750w mode, I get restricted by high temperature after only 2km when I have my 9yo kid on the bike on a 15% road. I am so disappointed by this motor. Doesn't worth the price.

@HighVoltageKits

2 ай бұрын

They are essentially encasing the motor in a coffin. It’s not a 750 watt motor for any real load or distance. It’s a shame

@fabiendilet9523

Ай бұрын

@@HighVoltageKits his advantage is that it exist a frameware version that is legal on the road in Europe. I don't know any other powerful motor that also is. Do you ?

OMG! Raise the temp just a bit and you can cook/bake inside that casing. Too bad, I had hopes for this motor. It's probably an awesome performer with a 750 watt max but, as you suggest, not at all price competitive at that power level. Only having had cadence sensing I really want to try out torque sensing pedal assist. Now my only hope for a torque sensing option to the BBSHD is if Toseven make a 120mm BB version. Bafang has a torque sensing motor but it seems to require a bunch of proprietary accessories, including display and battery & it's not hacker friendly.

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

Yeah. The smallest cakes ever lol. There is one more hope and that is the Cotton Mouth. We will be exploring torque sensors for that one and if we can get that done it will put everything else to shame. Still waiting on confirmation of the battery situation with the Bafang one but it does look like it will be UART. Which means we can upgrade it but the torque sensor likely won't work without hacking.

@michaelsprinzeles4022

6 ай бұрын

@@HighVoltageKits I've only heard about the Cotton Mouth but know nothing about it. Something new to research. Exciting times in the e-bike world. When I did my first build (2017), if you wanted reliable (& remotely legal), the only question was pretty much which Bafang motor.

They say magnets demagnetize above 80 C so I would be careful not running that hot

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

It depends on the magnets. Most decent ebike magnets can take more than that. Supposedly the ones in this can handle 140C according to CYC. Lower grade ones absolutely and its easy to tell. They no longer generate any torque or power. It happened to lots of Sur Ron guys. All of a sudden they had half as much power and it was running the motors too hot for too long. Good comment. Cheers

What happened to the comment from CYC?

@HighVoltageKits

4 ай бұрын

They commented on the video. There is also some feedback from them which I went over in one of the Friday Tech Chat videos on the Gen 4

Could air be forced thru the casing ?

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

Maybe but then you have issues of preventing moisture getting in as well as fine debris. I think just use it within its limits. That I will be doing from now on.

Fill it with oil lmaoooo

@HighVoltageKits

Ай бұрын

There has been discussion to use ferrofluid. One guy also did try transmission oil with his stealth.

Make it water cooled with a computer radiator

I have had my 52V CYC photon setup installed since august and am now approaching around 800 miles. It is by far the best DIY torque sensing setup IMHO at this time and my favorite to ride. My other DIY ebikes have been an 52V OSF TSDZ2 (with additional sw mods by me to improve torque sensing), torque sensor equipped Grin 52V GMAC (1500w) and 52V BBSHD (1500w). It obvious from looking at the photon, its not made for sustained high power especially when compared to the BBSHD. That being said, its significantly lighter. I installed mine without a throttle as it seems like it would be super easy to overdo on the throttle and cause overheating. The torque sensing is so good, I rarely feel the need for a throttle whereas a throttle seems mandatory on the BBSHD. I run mine in unrestricted mode and 95%+ in assist level two. I only get overheating(90C) on assist level 2 when going up hills greater than 10% (My 42t chainring and 11-36 cassette isnt the best for this grade although the BBSHD handles it fine). Assist level 3 will overheat if I am really pushing it (25mph+, high headwinds winds and 4-6% grades) and I can usually get it to 90C once per ride. That being said, no overheating at assist level 2 for those same conditions. Of further note that this unit seems very efficient although it does require more from the rider. My unit seems to cool down rapidly once I just reduce power, just resting the motor for a few seconds is usually good for a 5C reduction. Im 240# and most of my rides are rolling 4-6% hills, typical elevation gain is 1500ft in 25 miles. Typical temps for most riding is around 50C and this is at an average speed usually of 18mph. FWIW, I also have a Specialized Turbo Levo and Luna X2(bafang m600) with ludicrous upgrade. Have also owned several other factory equipped mid-drives both Class 1 and Class 3. Will buy/try a ToSeven DM01 soon

@ianbourne4084

6 ай бұрын

Great information

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

Appreciated. That is an impressive stable of machines! I think they need to be clear with the Photon what it can and cannot do even of that means that it sells less. In the end it will save them money as there will be less people making warranty claims. Some of the issue where I am is it is all hills and mostly 10%. I am wondering if the throttling behaviour is different for with PAS than the throttle. It seemed to cut more power than with the throttle. Not sure why. I would be hammering the message of get Turbo Levo performance with the bike you own. I would be going hard after that market. That is the kind of buyer that would not balk about buying a motor for $1000.

@linklemming1040

6 ай бұрын

IMHO, the photon is a great alternative to the $$$ euro based mid drives with a little more oomph. Its a ton better than the class 3 brose bike I owned. Thats how I look at it. It even has a euro based price tag😀 While the torque sensing isnt on par with the Brose, I am nitpicking at this point. I love my photon. Your just spoiled by your 72V BBSHD (a project I have been debating but too over the top for my riding)

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

Yeah. You have a point. I tend to judge everything by the throttle response on that which is not fair. I try. But there is no going back lol. Maybe if I didn't ride it for a year? hmm. That would be tough.

@bobbobb1791

6 ай бұрын

@@HighVoltageKits, mine is set and ridden at around 95% + also, but strictly level 3 race mode. peddle only. no throttle except for periodic cheating at extremely short bursts.14% grades and 1800ft climbs. 42t chainring/12-50t cassette. longest run was 30 mi. the only times i have experienced throttling is when using the throttle.

It'd be cool if you could of had graphics. ... .. .

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

I'll do a quick update on Friday's video. It's pretty time consuming but I'll do my best. Is it the air gap you are finding it hard to visualize?

Hey Captain... Totally irrelevant but have you seen the Bimotal motor?

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

No. You mean this? bimotal.com/products/elevate-pre-order Might be a good topic for the weekly e bike tech chat tho

@nc3826

6 ай бұрын

'total price of $1950' i had to take my heart medicine after I saw that....

@hindesite

6 ай бұрын

Ugh...

@Gyllbonus

6 ай бұрын

It's far too pricey... But it's very interesting. I like the fact that it's light weight and the gearing of the unit makes it spin pretty freely.

Your numbers look just like my gen2 Stealth. Not very happy with the performance.

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

It's the same motor type inside that one as well.

It’s under engineered It can’t handle power rating effectively It might as well be a tongsheng with a 3kw controller

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

I am not sure its quite that bad. But I think the ratings are given in house. I am not sure if its sent to an external body to be tested. I could be wrong.

@TimChump

6 ай бұрын

@@HighVoltageKits mine failed early on There seem to be so many failures, for the premium they charge it is not right. KZread is filled with cyc infomercials which I fell for and Cyc failures after low miles

First

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

Winner :)

The Photon is so loud. I dont know why people use this. The Bafang is so much better and cheaper. Only the optic from the photon is better.

@michaelsprinzeles4022

6 ай бұрын

It also has torque sensing pedal assist. It's hard to compete with the quality, reliability and value of the legendary old BBSHD.

@HighVoltageKits

6 ай бұрын

It has a really nice and smooth torque sensor and a compact form factor.

@nc3826

6 ай бұрын

it's great for everybody that loves engineering..... But it suck in terms of value.....

@loschi8722

6 ай бұрын

@@michaelsprinzeles4022 I love the bbshd. I dont think the photon can compete with thr power and displays, they can be used. The design from the photon is nice. But its much louder thank bafang and not so powerful.