This could have been a good discussion about the defficencies of low tech (pin) bindings, but there was no discussion of how the bindings work compared to alpine bindings and what the deficencies are. After watching this, I have not gained any information other than Dave thinks they are dangerous. The Kingpin/Dynafit and others release is all done in the heal piece. There are two adjustment screws. One adjusts the forward fall release tension of the heel, the other adjusts the twist release which also happens at the heel. once you twist out of the heel, the boot levers itself out of the toe (provided you havn't locked out the toe release by leaving it in tour mode). These screws are not really calibrated. You should start out loose and tighten as needed. I myself have been using Dynafit Speedturns for several years in and out of the ski area. While I am sure they are not as safe as alpine binding I have never had any problems.

Speaking as an engineer, the forces seen at the described distances, and the heel toe relationships are the same for "tech" bindings or an alpine binding. He never gets around to describing the deficiencies with a "tech" binding and thus, why it is no good. More information needs to be given to understand the argument.

@starch7517

5 жыл бұрын

The video makes good sense, at least with regard to "traditional" tech bindings, though it may not be explained tremendously well. In an alpine binding (at least the typical ones) the mechanism for a twisting release has the boot rotating in relation to the ski about an axis at or near the heel, and releasing laterally at the toe. In a traditional tech binding, there's no lateral toe release, so the binding release mechanism has the boot rotating about an axis at the toe, and releasing laterally at the heel. The lever arm that matters with respect to your leg has its axis at the center of your tibia, an inch or two in front of your heel. The further apart the two axes (of the lever that affect release vs. the one that breaks your leg and rips ligaments) are, the more difference there will be between the force that affects release and the the force that hurts you in a given situation. In a typical alpine binding, they're very close together. Indeed, in the old Marker Rotomat, they were at virtually the exact same point. In a traditional tech binding, they're a good 9-12 inches (or so) apart, depending on how long your boot sole is. There have been alpine bindings with the same issue, to a lesser degree (Burt, Alsop), though they're long gone for unrelated reasons. Also, as mentioned at the end, there are some "non-traditional" tech bindings (Fritschi is a good example) that have a lateral release at the toe. Whether they remain unproven is a more subjective question.

@AlexRattray

3 жыл бұрын

Did you (or anyone else) find a better explanation elsewhere?

@bartonpopenoe

2 жыл бұрын

I agree that he doesn’t cover this, but tech bindings don’t release as reliably (hence the lack of DIN ratings) or in the same directional axis as alpine bindings. IMHO the explanation of the multiplication of forces was intended to explain the increased risk of injury, but admittedly it could have been done better.

I never had any Problems with my King Pin, tecton Or ATK Binding...they all Released when they should.

Been skiing on Dynafit Speed Turns at the resort for the third season. Wife's on Vipecs. No problems for either of us. Never had a pre-release; have had release in a fall. Wonder what he'd think of the 3-pins and cables we used to ski on!

this makes the cast freetour system with look pivot bindings look super attractive

Excellent information. Hopefully when you get Dave back for an update you get better Mics.

New to skiing and tech bindings. Chased a buddy down an icy run in the resort last week on skimo race skis running Plum 150's. Good things my legs are still attached at the hips. But now that I'm better informed....

First season on tech bindings - broke my tib + fib, requiring surgery. I'll be going back to normal bindings.

@bartonpopenoe

2 жыл бұрын

Second season on tech bindings broke my femur and got a titanium hip. Will still use them, but won’t go fast with them anymore.

Wish I watched this before I fractured my femur, rib and vertebra when my tech binding pre-released while hauling a$$ in a wide-open remote bowl. While waiting for evac I had time to think and suspected that I had been going way too fast for a pair of 200g bindings to handle. Didn’t expect the result to be so catastrophic though.

Ive been skiing agressively on vipecs exclusively for 2 years now, and they have released when needed and stayed on when needed. No problem with lateral toe release or vertical heel release. I ski them on din 10. Nose butters, switch skiing, cliffs, jamming my ski tip into hidden avy debris on runouts etc... I crash a bit, and no problems.

@superflycatchermtb

5 жыл бұрын

That only proves that what you already said....that you have had no problems. There are people that skied on old school non releasable bindings with 220cm skis and never broke their leg either.....proves nothing. The point they are making in this video, is that if you think an AT binding has the same safety as a traditional modern alpine binding you are mistaken, and your risk is increased with speed. Trying to deny that is an argument with the laws of physics.

@jmb989

4 жыл бұрын

@@superflycatchermtb -- and what you're missing, is that the binding Frank is referring to is a binding that releases laterally at the toe, just like a modern alpine binding, as mentioned in the video. Not all tech bindings work the same.

how do you define fast? 50+ miles/hour?

With five decades of all disciplines from long track nordic to 45 degree speed skiing on 235s, or a french monoski in the glades. I can really thank these guys. For considering ISO AT boots with ISO DH bindings. I use Daymakers which are suitable for skinning 211 Super Gs up a back country glacier next week in British Columbia, Canada. I love them and lead the pack of marketed money pigs!

Almost broke my leg on the Marker King Pin (which is what the gentlemen are holding in the video). Immediately sold them and went back to Marker Tour F 12.

This I am not Sure why this guy was talking about Torque like it’s tech binding Specific. It would also affect alpine bindings too.

@walle7361

5 жыл бұрын

I think its cuz tech bindings don't let the toe out side to side. I'm not really sure since I only use Alpine but that's what I gathered from this video which I don't even know what I'm watching. Lol

@billthemanofgoodnis

5 жыл бұрын

Walle73 newer tech binding do have toe releases.

I think my first pair of bear trap bindings were unsafe. If you have experience with tech bindings and are a proficient skier then go for it. Are Dynafits really made to charge hardpack inbounds? Not really the tool for the job but lots of folks do it. If you know your equipment and how to ski then you are all set. I ski Freerides exclusively in and out of bounds without any problems. AT or tech bindings have a place in and out of bounds.

I'm a little confused. You say that the heal doesn't release but then you say if the DIN isn't set high enough they release too easily. Don't the toe and heal adjust separately? In other words can't the heal be set at a higher DIN than the toe?

I wonder if the tech binding he is talking about having the same release characteristics as an alpine binding is the SkiTrab TR2? or is he referring to Fritchi, Salomon etc.

@rushdunaway6183

8 ай бұрын

I think he’s referring to the Tecton- which I had, fell once using them and broke my leg. After being told “they’re as safe as alpine bindings” and that they are “din certified” which they aren’t.

@Klatrevalross

8 ай бұрын

@@rushdunaway6183 Ouch. Tore my ACL on marker alpinist myself prev. winter. Skitrab only going forward.

Now you can just get a Salomon S/LAB Shift binding and have the best of both. That is a pin binding going up hill and a full alpine toe and heal going down hill.

@leolevesque3269

3 жыл бұрын

They're the best on paper. In reality, they don't work well on the way up and they hardly work on the way down. I ski'd 4 days on them and broke them in 3 different ways. I've been skiing on the same pair of Dynafit bindings for 7 years, on the other hand, and have had no issue. CAST is in the mail!

@rwavez

3 жыл бұрын

@@leolevesque3269 I'm thinking about getting the Cast aswell or the Marker Duke Pt. Let me know if you like it or if you have any problems

@leolevesque3269

3 жыл бұрын

@@rwavez yeah, I wonder if the Duke PT will be any good! I like how they use the pins to lock the DIN toe down, but I'd be wary of that system as well. CAST has been around long enough to know that it's bomber! I ski with a buddy who has it and it seems rad, but transitions are a bit finicky.

@vitaminb4869

3 жыл бұрын

@@leolevesque3269 can you please elaborate how you broke them in 3 different ways in just 4 days? I can't imagine this being the norm with these bindings considering how many people use them.

@leolevesque3269

3 жыл бұрын

@@vitaminb4869 first day I went touring with them one of the walk modes wouldn't remain engaged, so I had to shove my Leatherman through the hole to keep the lever up so the ski would stay on my boot. The AFD adjusters broke and wouldn't stay in place. And something was wrong with the DIN mechanism. Kept losing skis with the DIN cranked.. I could be standing still and remove my ski by hitting it sideways onto the cat track. Also, I had to tour a lot for work. I never used the Shifts for that, but my coworker had them and he sheared one of the arms of the toepieces off while skinning up on his brand new ones. Pretty crappy bindings overall, I'd say. My coworker was a pretty light guy, but I'm not, so maybe they just can't handle someone over 150lbs? For the price, they should be able to.

Eye roll

Dave's explanation seems backwards to me. The binding releases the heel based on the torque between the toe and heel of the boot. This protects the tib/fib/knee from torque as it should. Torque is what is important. The binding does not know or care about lateral force on the tip or tail of the ski, lateral force does not matter, who cares what produces the torque? If Dave is trying to say that tech bindings are less safe due to lack of a toe release mechanism, he is doing a poor job and sounds like he is only trying to sell his brand of ski boots (and let me guess, are they alpine style boots?).

@henrygarrett6226

2 жыл бұрын

I think he’s just trying to keep people safe..

@pauldrinan

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed. A low-speed wipeout is way more scary toque-wise. Insufficient speed (force) to release the binding can be more hazardous than most high-speed diggers.

@ridiculousrusty

Жыл бұрын

The problem is the axis of rotation. In a tech binding, the binding releases by rotating around the toe (heel moves while toe stays in the same place), while and alpine binding releases by rotating around the heel (toe moves while heel stays in same place). The closer the axis is to your tibia, the more similar the binding release force is to the force experienced by your leg.

Are you saying that this particular binding doesn't have a heel release? I use the Dynafit Radical. I believe they have a heal release. I have the DIN set at 7. I was going slow, the ski released but not till after I broke my ankle.

@martinottosson6583

5 жыл бұрын

No, he is saying that the force applied to the leg before the binding will release will be a lot higher than your set DIN if you do a rotational fall which includes catching of the front of the ski. And it will be significantly lower if you do a rotational fall that includes catching of the back end of the ski. So you set your binding to 7, but in real world use, you have an effective DIN of 3,5 to 14 depending on how you fall. Alpine bindings are not perfect either, but they have a bigger safe interval in falls where the DIN works as expected. You probably did a forward rotational fall then and your leg experienced a force equal to a DIN of 12-14 somewhere and snapped.

I recently had a knee strain using Fritschi AT binding

The main problem is that man who runs ATM committee obviously fails to understand torque.

Have they ever skied technical terrain strapped into a pair of Kingpins? Trust me, they work as well uphill as DOWN!

In short: Ripping down the mountain go Look Pivot. Ripping the ACL go with tech bindings.

@WillThrillz

4 жыл бұрын

Thestripper Not really unless you are talking about the cast system. Both made for different skiing.

@vitaminb4869

3 жыл бұрын

In short: you don't understand what alpine bindings and what touring bindings are.

@Thestripper1

3 жыл бұрын

@@vitaminb4869 No I do understand what they are. In short: hey are crap!

@vitaminb4869

3 жыл бұрын

@@Thestripper1 I would like to see you tour in Pivots then.

@Thestripper1

3 жыл бұрын

@@vitaminb4869 I don't tour with anything else.

except for the fact that the binding they are holding is not a traditional tech binding. It has an alpine heel and is DIN certified. The Kingpin doesn't release like a normal tech binding, and the fact that they are using as an example makes me skeptical of their claims on tech bindings altogether.

4 Years too late, but this is 50% wrong is it not? That is, the extra torque on the foot from a force at the front of the ski make sense. The lesser force required for release if the force is at the back of the ski does not make sense?

The end card nearly destroyed my ears Edit: spelling

I mean, it's just a little ridiculous to expect people to buy multiple ski setups. If you ever go touring, you should just get a touring setup. It's fine for the resort. Sure, you shouldn't go quite as fast downhill, but the difference is negligible

Yeah, this video is really a joke. He literally disregards the binding he is holding in his hand for the entire video, the Marker Kingpin, which is DIN/ISO 13992:2007 Certified by TUV. Not to mention the fact that all of the forces he's describing apply to both a downhill and an AT binding. The information presented here is outdated at best (ignores AT binding technology that has been on the market for over 4 years, i.e. Marker Kingpin, Dynafit Beast, et al. - which he dismisses as "unproven") and is misleading at worst, considering he runs a boot company that doesn't sell any AT boots. A conflict of interest to say the least. It's concerning that someone like this is running the ASTM binding testing committee. They should at least have a good grasp of the current technologies available. It seems like this guy doesn't have any AT experience, especially considering that the Dodge website advocates touring in a stiff carbon boot with no walk mode in a frame binding, by basically saying that "at least it's light and good in the downhill".

@Alex-us2vw

6 жыл бұрын

The forces are applied to both downhill alpine and AT tech bindings sure but they are not the same. Downhill alpine bindings have a heel release so it will release at the specified force and not the toe release force X2 on your leg. It’s all the same to the ski, binding, and boot. It’s the leg that’s getting 2X the force before release. I think it really would depend on the crash and what angle the forces are working from. Something like the AT binding he mentioned at the end with the more traditional toe release from downhill skis seems like a good idea.

@gherbers

6 жыл бұрын

Alex Tomev that’s the whole point of the Kingpin. It has a traditional downhill heel and a pin toe that releases when twisting, just like an alpine binding.

@billdoble8952

6 жыл бұрын

I dare you to put a lateral load on the fore body of your ski with a Kingpin and see how well the toe releases.

@gherbers

6 жыл бұрын

Same toe mechanism as on my Dynafit Beast 14s, which have no problem releasing from the toe. I see no reason why it would be different for the Kingpin.

@billdoble8952

6 жыл бұрын

I reiterate: Put a sudden lateral load on the front of the ski (about 24" ahead of the toe piece) and see if the toe releases like an alpine binding would. Then compare with an alpine binding.

Grumpy old men

I don't see how those moment arms differ between a tech toe piece vs. a traditional toe piece (actually that isn't true, I do if fact see that they don't differ). You still experience the same force differential from a horizontal force applied to the front vs. rear of the ski with any type of binding. What should have been discussed is the actual difference in the release mechanism between a "pin" style toe piece and a "traditional" style toe piece, as this is where the true safety advantages of the traditional binding standout. It should also be discussed that various tech binding companies are developing solutions that minimize/mitigate this difference, and are constantly getting closer to the performance from both a skiing and safety perspective to traditional bindings.Edit: I just finished the last 30 secs of the video and my concerns (in regards to newer tech bindings) were somewhat addressed. Dave should be more informed about the alternatives however just as he asks us as consumers to be more informed.

@Alex-us2vw

6 жыл бұрын

He was just illustrating that without a heel release that relying on toe release alone will result in significantly more force on the legs before releasing. Traditional alpine bindings can release at the heel + toe so the moment arm between front impact and rear have similar moment arms/forces involved. Since accidents usually happen while traveling forwards having a heel release would be the ideal situation. He didn’t say Tech bindings are bad just they shouldn’t be used within ski resort boundary and reserved for backcountry usage. I’ve been skiing for 25 years now and the physics behind the binding release mechanism never once crossed my mind. It didn’t even occur to me that forces applied to the front or back of the ski will have different release values when the heel is locked and only the toe can release. Thinking about it makes me cringe, a front lateral force will twist the leg till the knee/hip twist range locks before it can load the toe to trigger a release. With the leg receiving 2X the force the toe release trigger weight l can just imagine the pain from my not so happy 30 year old knees. I might take it a little easier next time I take out my AT skis. Lol I ski whistler mostly and love AT bindings to reach that fresh powder down to my last run of the day. Now I’m going to be paranoid till I buy myself one of those newer versions with hybrid alpine style toe release mechanism.

@elainenilsson5472

5 жыл бұрын

I sport the dynafit. Can you recommend a set up of alpine that closely resemble the feel of the dynafit system? I love my system but broke my ankle last year. Now I'm paranoid.

@maximegoulet-bourdon7447

5 жыл бұрын

Atomic/Salomon Shift? Tech binding ascent with a din certified descent mechanism :)

@Klatrevalross

5 жыл бұрын

@@elainenilsson5472 It is expensive, but i am extreamly happy with it; SkiTrab TR2. It is lighter than Salomon and Kingpin with the same or better characteristics.

It's disappointing to see how slow the binding development is. Why cant we have a light weight touring binding with the reliability of look pivot now that it's 2020 with all the CAD, 3D printing and AI product development.

LOL calls the Vipec unproven even after 4+ years of their use.

@martinbasil6316

6 жыл бұрын

Ranar14 Fritschi Vipec 12 has it covered with 13mm of travel before release it absorbs energy to protect the leg and reduces the risk of release. The latest Tecton adds 9mm of travel in the heal for the same reason. I have VIPEC 12for that reason.

@mikenagle9931

6 жыл бұрын

Yep. DIN rated, just like an alpine binding.

@gherbers

6 жыл бұрын

And it's not the only one. So is the Marker Kingpin, that he ironically is holding in his hand during the video... So is the Dynafit Beast...

Outstanding and informative video. On the firm, carrying a heavy load; such as a bundle of gates, water jugs, drills and other Alpine coaching supplies adds to the concerns many coaches have for the performance, (especially retention) for these types of binders. They are indeed unbeatable when you need to get up above your spot quickly to replace a gate or pick-up the pieces following a training mishap.

"Tech bindings aren't very safe for lift served skiing"... says the guy who doesn't make a tech compatible ski boot... I have to giggle a little at that

@elainenilsson5472

5 жыл бұрын

I'm wondering what difference it is how you get up the mountain.

@Clove_Parma

5 жыл бұрын

Elaine, non lift served skiing is usually backcountry or ski touring where snow is typically less tracked out, compacted by other skiers or groomers.

This is a classic case of too much bookworm, not enough practical experience. I wore out my kingpins, in asumably faaaaar more technical terrain than that ol bugger has ever seen, and never had much of an issue. I will not buy them again, since there are now better bindings available, but they work just fine.

@blade1535

3 жыл бұрын

What would you buy now???

@colincarver893

3 жыл бұрын

@@blade1535 shifts are the binding many of us have been waiting for for a long, long time. We even built hybrid tech/alpine setups around 2000 ish. Light tech for the long hauls, shifts for stompin around.

@blade1535

3 жыл бұрын

@@colincarver893 have you tried Marker Duke PTs yet? Getting my first pair of touring skis and trying to decide what to buy. I’m happy to spend money if it means they perform well and I don’t have to think too much about equipment whilst skiing.

@colincarver893

3 жыл бұрын

@@blade1535 had a good look at em. Heavy. Slack country shots could be ok. But not at all a fan of the removeable toe bits. Pointless to me.

You watch this and then sees a guy like Chris bent chetler rocking this binding, dropping cliffs, sending massive lines and not having any problem with the bindings not releasing when they should.

Not buying his argument. When the boot applies the set amount of torque to the binding it will release, end of story. Where the force is applied to the ski doesn't change this.

@Alex-us2vw

6 жыл бұрын

He wasn’t talking about the force on the boot, the force on your leg is what matters. There’s also nothing not to believe, it’s just the physics of levers. Why do downhill alpine bindings have heel and toe release mechanisms? Seems a little redundant to have engineered 2 spring loaded devices to release a boot if it’s not required and forces between heel/toe are equal.

don't ski like crap, and you will be just fine....the sky is not falling gang.

how is this guy an expert if he doesn't know the kingpin releases also in the back ?! It's a certified by TUV for safety binding. total bulshit.

@billdoble8952

6 жыл бұрын

Suggest you do your homework. Issue for the Kingpin (and other low-tech toes) is force required for toe release. By the way, TUV certification does NOT mean it's safe, only that it meets the standards for touring bindings, NOT Alpine bindings.

@starch7517

5 жыл бұрын

That's exactly his point. It releases in response to lateral force at the back of the boot as the boot turns around a fixed axis at the toe. Your leg is affected by a lever with an axis at your tibia. The torque will be different because the length of the two lever arms is different.

How is he an expert if he doesn't understand torque?