CORRECTION: SORRY GUYS EARTHCRAFT ONLY UNTAPS BASICS. I was making this video at 3am and totally messed that up, but it's still true that decks like elves could use it to generate loads of mana or enchantress could use it to untap basics enchanted with loads of buffs.

@Rorschachqp

4 ай бұрын

You only need Earthcraft to untap the basic Forest the Squirrel's Nest is attached to.

Don't think I've commented before, but just wanted to say that I really appreciate your channel. Especially your various premodern deck-techs has opened my eyes to how broad and fun this format can be. This video was very interesting, I kinda like the idea of banning a few cards in order to make games fun and to make the format feel less like vintage. Keep up the good work!!!

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

Thanks for the kind words and first ever comment, I really appreciate that. I also should point out if your new that I messed up with earthcraft by saying it can untap non basics. It's still banned so wont make any difference in practice but thought I should say that. Yeah I really like the for fun bans it totally opens the format up and lets us play our favourite cards from years ago.

A very good look at the format! Didn't realise that's what worldgorger did.

Couple things here: you would do well to listen the Premodcast's discussion with Mike Arnold on the banned list. Mike has tested cards on the list extensively with small tournaments he runs. Mystical Tutor is, by no means, as powerful as Vamp Tutor or Consult, and can probably be unbanned. Furthermore, Tendrils is banned for a similar reason to FoW and Brainstorm ban, the idea being you can play tendrils in legacy; introducing into the format could be safe and would require build arounds, but in the end its not what the format wants to do. Mind's desire on the other hand, could probably be unbanned. Finally, the testing that was done on Necro about a year ago revealed that fears about its "power" in comparison with other parts of the format is somewhat overblown, as the tools to abuse Necro in a t1 combo fashion that it is used for in other formats arw very much lacking in PM, and as a consequence Necro ends up either being a worse versiom of existing combos, or strengthening draw engines for midrange decks. I firmly believe the ban list is not permanent. You forgot that Yawgmoth's Bargain was originally legal in the format as well. Bargain, Tax, and Show and Tell are all examples of how the ban list can and should be edited in order to provide a better experience for players, and while there are certain cards that are format defining bans and others that are utterly broken bans, I think there are either a few cards that can either come off, or a few that can finally go on.

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

I have seen Mikes videos and know there are discussions about unbanning some of these and chose not to include that in specific details in the video because it is mostly for newer players and discussing bans and unbans is something that divides the community and a thing that many people have strong opinions about. I thought it's better to leave that part up to what individuals think because whatever I said would have definitely resulted in comments disagreeing and long discussion. (I decided not to compare the tutors with worldly or enlightened tutor or living wish for this reason). I also mentioned that the list can change, perhaps I should have also mentioned that bargain was legal but felt that it's not that relevant as it has been banned for several years but I probably should have mentioned it anyway. I mostly just used Show&tell as an example to show it can change and with land tax because it's a recent controversial banning with many people disagreeing. Tendrils was a miss

@rossmcgleish7523

4 ай бұрын

Best format

Premodern is my favorite format precisely because it has a very well-designed ban list. The brew space in premodern is so much fun as a result

EternalCentral’s Middleschool format is interesting to try out. Dark ritual is banned while tendrils is allowed and FOW is legal etc.

Great content as usual, mate! But I really would love to see more webcam matches, it'd be awesome if you continued with those videos :)

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

Thanks, I really appreciate that especially as I have just recorded a bunch to upload soon ahah.

I loved this video! Thank you for sharing all the insight. We do play Force of Will in Middle School, a very similar format that's played over Premodern in Japan, and it's perfectly okay for us. Threshold and Landstill aren't too strong (the best decks still tend to be creature decks such as Elves or Goblins) and blue decks such as Replenish and Madness don't even play FoW. More interestly, minor decks such as Opt Blue and Sea Drake Stompy do play up to 4 copies of Foil in addition to FoW.

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

Interesting I’ve been meaning to try that format out for a while but never got around to it. Personally I like force being banned because I like foil and thwart and getting to play those is awesome

great video, great channel, keep going 🎉

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

Thanks I really appreciate this comment and Im glad you enjoy the channel.

Ojalá habilitasen un par de colecciones poco poderosas pero muy bonitas, como fueron The Dark y Fallen Empires...

at 6:44 I'm a bit confused, earthcraft says you can only untap basic lands but you mention gaea's cradle and serra's sanctum, is there a card in premodern that turns nonbasics into basics or is that decks with gaea's cradle and serra's sanctum also have a lot of basics to untap? sorry if this is a stupid question, I'm not very familar with premodern

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

It's not stupid at all, thanks for pointing that out. Thats just a total miss by me because I was making the video at 3am. Sorry about that. But it's still true that decks like elves could abuse it by untapping basics to generate loads of mana or enchantress could untap a basic with loads of buff effects on it. As others have mentioned in the comments there are also discussions about unbanning some of these cards and I have seen some people asking about earthcraft.

@Rorschachqp

4 ай бұрын

Actually it's not a miss at all. If you go infinite with the shown loop, with Squirrel Nest on a basic Forest and Earthcraft in play, you literally make an "infinite" amount of squirrels to tap. If you have one Gaea's Cradle out, that one Cradle now generates that much mana. That's a big Ghitu Fire as an Instant! Or a one turn Whetstone during opponent's upkeep. If you go the Whetstone route, all of those cards can just be green. With twelve 1 drop green mana generators (BIrds, Llanowar and Fyndhorn Elves) and Elvish Spirit Guide and Lotus Petal, and cards like Sylvan Library with 8 green fetch lands, it's easy to pull off fast. Turn 1, Forest or fetchland, mana dork. Turn 2, Forest or Cradle, Earthcraft, mana dork. Turn 3, Squirrel's Nest, Gaea's Cradle or Forest..., generate some tokens and cast Whetstone. On their turn win game by generating infinite squirrel tokens and mana on their upkeep and make them go to draw step and lose. If you have any inconsistency, play Sylvan Library and use it to draw more cards or fetch lands to shuffle if you don't like what you see. Even if opponent gets rid or or counters your Whetstone, you will will have a kajillion squirrels to attack with on your turn.

Great video!

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it

Seems good format !

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

It’s amazing and still very affordable

Before watching this video, I genuinely thought that PreModern was just Modern with Modern Horizons and Universes Beyond banned.

i might play the format, ordered cards for standstill since i have the deck in legacy so i just needed a few other cards, might order a few more decks to lend to people and see if i can play it inbetween fnm

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

It’s a really awesome format, surprisingly there are even quite a few players who didn’t even play when these sets were originally out. They just like the gameplay

@Lunamowon

4 ай бұрын

@@IPlayMagic I've spent most my magic time playing legacy and modern. Might aswell try this format. Was super scared it would be really expensive but I own all the fetches so decks are really cheap for me to get

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

@@Lunamowon Yeah its a very cheap format especially when you consider that it doesnt rotate or change. There are quite a few cheap top tier decks

@Lunamowon

4 ай бұрын

@@IPlayMagic when it comes to deck techs. Would you mind showing the entire deck on like a mtggoldfish visual view page before you start talking about it? Really helps us get an overview of the deck before going into detail

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

@@Lunamowon I could do that and I’ve thought about it. I decided to put that at the end because I think a lot of people don’t watch to the end of the videos and I thought that might help, I’m not sure though really. I could try at the start

I don't play Premodern, but who can resist a banlist video.

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

😂 maybe you should give premodern a try, it’s awesome

Regarding broken mana ramp, I believe Mox Diamond should be included in this list. If you look at the top decks of the format a lot are mox diamond based. Cradle also falls in this category alongisde Tolarian Academy. Also both cards are price prohibitive to get into the format.

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

I don’t think that many of the top decks play mox? Just oath decks and gat if you consider that a top deck. There’s a few that play lotus petal but there’s a lot more that don’t play either. I don’t think cradle is on the same level as academy either because creatures are much easier to deal with than artifacts. It’s definitely possible to pick from a wide range of top tier decks without the need for cradle or mox diamond but I do see your point that any deck has the option to play mox if it wants to up the land count a bit.

@allan_aje5478

4 ай бұрын

​@@IPlayMagic could just be recency bias, towards all the terravore and oath decks winning or placing high. On the second point, can there ba justification on banning because of card price. If you look at the decks most are relatively close to each other but once cradle or moxd then it becomes expensive. Although cradle has gold bordered option where moxd has none.

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

@@allan_aje5478 yeah I think it might be that, do you mostly play on mtgo? Or watch KZread about premodern because I haven’t played against a mox deck in a while and they aren’t winning the 100 player webcam monthlies. I think theres just one KZreadr who’s really good at the game that has pushed terra oath. I don’t see it in paper but maybe it’s just me. I also doubt that the format would move towards banning due to price because they think more about playability and fun. There are lots of very cheap tier 1 or 2 decks

@allan_aje5478

4 ай бұрын

@@IPlayMagic I don't play as much magic as I want to (online or paper), if I do its mostly Vintage. But I do have interest in the format and built around 5 decks already, mostly from the cards that I have already. I can imagine online it would be easier but on paper though it might be possible they are not as prevalent because they are expensive. Something that might need more data and community feedback.

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

@@allan_aje5478 That is possible but usually when some new deck comes along everyone will try it out for a while and then it dies down a bit, Im certain the same will happen online with terraoath. Plus most people havent actually played the format so it's easy to fall into thinking you need moxes if you see lots of videos of people dominating with that deck or losing to it especially if the videos have youtube suitable titles like 'the best deck' etc. I think if you needed moxes or cradles they would dominate the top 16's of the monthlies. I havent checked previous months for times sake but the online monthly for January has 0 copies of mox diamond in the top 16 and 8 copies of cradle (2 elf decks) in a 80-100+ player event. no oath decks in the top 16 at all. I would also describe 8 of the top 16 decks as affordable to cheaper end decks. Maybe there would be more people playing mox if it was cheaper but there are definitely plenty of people who own them in the monthlies. Id really recommend trying the format out its super fun and because there are so many archetypes it really rewards knowing your deck rather than just playing 'a strong' deck.

This is a great rundown for Premodern beginners. One thing I wish I had mentioned on our podcast was a rebuttal to the argument that you need Force of Will to answer broken openings. While I think FoW plays an important role in Legacy to keep things from breaking too hard when something slips through development (And there’s certainly been a few of those), that doesn’t apply in Premodern because no cards are being added to the cardpool. If there’s a broken opening that requires FoW to answer then just ban the card that’s causing that problem.

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

That’s a great point

I think it's nice to explain this but there is another side of the coin. Some cards are banned or not banned simply because the format is in its infancy and just like Wizards in 1994 who restricted Sword Of The Ages (a semi-unplayable card) but not Balance, it could be total noobness as well.

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

That’s true, I think it will keep evolving over time

@Rorschachqp

4 ай бұрын

@@IPlayMagic Yeah and it better or the format will become super-stale.

Do you actually know necropotence / balance / mind twist are too strong? Has anyone tried them?

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

There are people saying that they might be ok and people have tried them. Maybe they will get unbanned one day but for now they remain banned

@karawapo

4 ай бұрын

@@IPlayMagic Necropotence is ok in Middle School because we do have Dark Ritual banned.

@jareddoucette7193

4 ай бұрын

Yes. Balance is totally snapped. It has been tested Necro maybe safe? Mind twist just doesn’t add an enjoyable play experience where it just crushed one person with only blue having co7nterspells to fight against

This is the first I've heard of this format. I'm already ready to move swiftly along without ever giving it a second thought.

Bargain started out unbanned. Ban other cards.

You can not untap Cradle with Earthcraft.

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

Yeah I’ve already addressed that in the pinned comment, unfortunately I forgot that when I was making this and was making it at 3am so didn’t catch the mistake, but it’s still the case that elves could abuse it to make loads of mana or enchantress could untap a super enchanted up basic

Algorythm

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

Awesome ! Thank you!

Is this a banned history or supposed to be current? Worldgorger hasn't been banned for nearly a decade if its current.

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

Worldgorger is banned in premodern. Maybe you are thinking about a different format like legacy or modern ?

@TheUndeadFish1

4 ай бұрын

@@IPlayMagic oh ya I was thinking legacy, I wasn't aware premodern was a format.

Mystical tutor is safe to unban

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

I was considering talking about this and comparing it with worldly and enlightened tutor. But I think I will save that for another video. Personally I’d like one of the storm cards unbanned because I haven’t seen storm in forever and all of the gaeas blessing in the format really make it a struggle

Mox Diamond need to go away as well. I lose count on how many times losing to turn 1 sphere of resistance follow up with Terra~Oath shenanigans.

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

You’d probably need to take ancient tomb as well to fully stop that. Do you play most of your games on mtgo? Because it seems that the meta is very different to paper

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

You’d probably need to take ancient tomb as well to fully stop that. Do you play most of your games on mtgo? Because it seems that the meta is very different to paper

@eric360elite

4 ай бұрын

Mtgo. As an aggro player, it is such a pain to deal with the terra oath deck if I can't answer the earlt sphere / Oath set up. 〒▽〒

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

@@eric360elite yeah I can imagine, parfait was also quite annoying as well. I started playing stuff like eradicate in my sideboards because of terravore and exalted angel. I do think the mtgo meta will slowly get bored of terra oath just like how decks become super popular and then fade out in paper.

@eric360elite

4 ай бұрын

I always want to play against the meta since premodern is meant to be a creative yet casual format. However some of the decks out there are simply next level. Check out the guy who post a video about premodern is actually a 2 turn format. Still love the game though, but I cannot agree more.

Feels a little like storm got unfairly hated on. Yawg will and the mana rocks, sure. Worldgorger without entomb doesnt seem that bad either.

@IPlayMagic

Ай бұрын

I would like to see minds desire unbanned to see how broken it is. I think part of the reason for tendrils being banned is to keep the format different from legacy as well as it being a super strong card

@WordSonFoRealz

Ай бұрын

@@IPlayMagic i dont think this format resembles legacy. I see a want to seperate it that i think fow, brainstorm and entomb accomplishes. 3 or 4 card combos with earthcraft wouldn't be that big of a problem. Grim monolith could be ok. Make mud and metalworker potentially playable. I dont see an issue with letting the older decks/archetypes exist because a couple of the cards still see play in legacy. The lines of play and interactions getting to a tendrils or desire would be very different then led and echo with bowmasters.

Still sad that Land Tax is banned

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

I think it was getting to the point where it was taking over the meta. Just before the bannings I played a huge tournament with 6 rounds in a row all playing tax 😂

So a format for people that hate change and want to relive their childhood

@Mrkmotr

4 ай бұрын

Not really. That's how it starts for many players, but then you discover the format is rich, diverse and deep even taking nostalgia factor out.

unban necrooooo!!!

@IPlayMagic

3 ай бұрын

😂 I’d be down to try it, seemed ok in the unbanned league

They’re banned because they “wanted a format to look a certain way”, which is the dumbest reason to ban cards.

Please, can you say the card name instead of just showing it? This would be great sleeping material otherwise, you have a nice voice

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

Thanks il try to do that next time

Ban tinker and unban grim monolith :(

@IPlayMagic

4 ай бұрын

Tinker doesn’t really seem to be that powerful at the moment but I definitely don’t want monolith unbanned. It’s so strong and would go into too many decks I think.

@suntzu6122

4 ай бұрын

@@IPlayMagic new rule. U can play monolith in mono brown only lol

@Mrkmotr

4 ай бұрын

@@IPlayMagic Not mentioning budget issue having to purchase a playset 😆

Boomer Magic : the Boomering We wanna relive our childhood; but not really- ban everything we’ve felt bad losing to. And also FoW. Which would’ve kept those powerful cards in check, because ew Legacy (?)